The Ministry of Defence has published the biannual armed forces diversity statistics.
The publication contains diversity information on the strength, intake and outflow of the Regular Forces and the Future Reserves 2020 (FR20) population.
“Statistics are for trained and untrained personnel unless otherwise stated. Ethnic origin and religion data are self-reported on the Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) database. Any percentages or figures quoted within this report relate to those with a known ethnic origin, religion or nationality unless otherwise stated.”
Key Points and Trends from the figures
Gender
| ▲11.2% | Female representation in the UK Regular Forces as at 1 October 2021 This has increased by 0.2 percentage points compared with 1 October 2020 (11.0%) |
|---|---|
| ▲15.4% | Female representation in the Future Reserves 2020 as at 1 October 2021 This has increased by 0.4 percentage points compared with 1 October 2020 (14.9%) |
| ▲12.7% | Of total intake into the combined UK Regular Forces and the Future Reserves 2020 were female in the 12 months to 30 September 2021 This has increased by 0.5 percentage points compared with 30 September 2020 (12.2%) |
Ethnicity
| ▲9.4% | Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) representation in the UK Regular Forces as at 1 October 2021 This has increased by 0.3 percentage points compared with 1 October 2020 (9.1%) |
|---|---|
| ▲5.8% | BAME representation in the Future Reserves 2020 as at 1 October 2021 This has increased by 0.2 percentage points compared with 1 October 2020 (5.6%) |
| ▼8.0% | Of total intake into the combined UK Regular Forces and the Future Reserves 2020 were BAME in the 12 months to 30 September 2021 This has decreased by 3.2 percentage points compared with 30 September 2020 (11.2%) |
I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m more concerned about a soldiers lethality/competence than their ethnicity or gender. Are we going to see some lethality/competence statistics?
Course not!
Reminds me of that British Army advert when a patrol stops to let someone prey. Yeah, that’s not going to cause issues at all.
I never saw that but cringed when I read it. Do I doubt it? Not at all.
..to let someone prey?? Let us Pray that preying continues to be part of what the Army does and may they continue to do it stealthily in 2022…
The military should take the best people, but what it there are conscious and unconscious barriers that prevent that? Having the diversity stats may point to there being an issue. Also, shouldn’t the armed forces be representative of the country they are employed to protect?
Correct, the military is, and should be a cross section of the community and we always need to strive to recruit both the best people and the right people. The stats are important to confirm that is exactly what we are doing. However everyone always wants to celebrate diversity, and while its a good thing, why don’t we also actually celebrate and promote commonalty, which may come as a surprise to some, we are ALL more alike than we are diverse. Cheers.
Yes as you say it’s a check to make sure specific groups are not for some reason not seeing a particular career path as something they can aspire to. Makes sure you are maximising your recruiting opportunities.
No, the military should not be “a cross section of the community” it should simply be whoever happens to make the best soldiers. Should that be poorer white men, which it more than likely will be, then tough shit.
And please tell: what makes you think that diversity stats are “important to confirm that” we recruit the best people for the job?The “best people for the job” are not decided upon by their race or gender.
Wow don’t get so angry pal! You are wrong, the military SHOULD be a cross section of the community and the country it represents and defends. And the stats ensure fairness, to ensure certain groups are fairly represented. If that gets you angry then I’m afraid your going to be angry for a long time.
Doesn’t make him wrong though does it – He can be angry and right.
Didn’t we see some yank senator recently bemoaning the push for diversity vs. comptentence and the adverse affect he felt that was having on their forces effectivness.
As we are reducing force numbers we should most definately be recuiting the best available – we should also of course be ensuring we don’t miss out on the best available by making sure all creeds feel it offers them an opportunity to develop.
However if you are suggesting we should ensure we are a ‘diverse’ force to the detriment of it’s effectivness then I cannot agree with that position.
In fact that statement in itself is part of the problem with ‘forced diversity’.
Those who are more capable that are overlooked just to fill quota’s will have a very real sense of injustice that they will take forward in life, and rightly so.
In all vocations btw not just The Forces.
Er read my other posts on the subject matter, where I state its about competence and ability, not stats. But the stats are important to ensure we have a recruiting pool of everyone who is eligable and capable of joining. And I always love when people say “are you suggesting”….er if I think somthing I say it, theres no suggestion, so lets not try to maniplulate my posts to suit and justify your response. AND he is absolutly wrong when he said “no, the military should NOT be a cross section of the community”….Thats absoluty wrong on every level and he needs to get a grip.
Yep fair enough I can see you clarified your posiiton further down the thread. I hadnt read all the thread before replying to that particular comment – maybe I should but then sometimes these threads are rather long, and I forget where comments were by the time I get to the end.
However…I will say I believe you have taken his comment out of context..to me he’s implying they do not HAVE to be a cross secition on the communitys they serve ,not that they SHOULD NOT be a cross section etc. thats how I read his comment anyway?
As for my ‘are you suggesting’,I was merely seeking to clarify what you were actually saying rather than making assumptions. I was not attempting to manipulate your comments whatsoever ,as in a simlar fashion to you, I dont care enough to try and ‘be clever’.I speak it as I see it,I didnt seek to justify my response.
Apart from that I think we have a similar opinion on the subject.
Griz, thanks for the reply and the clarification! Like you say sometimes the threads are long and on many occasions I also neglect to read all the posts and I home in on certain comments! It’s no issue mate it is what it is and it’s all about a good old fashioned debate and opinions! We all have opinions and these are generally learned from experiences we have! And having read other posts we are along the same thought process on many subjects! Cheers and have a great, safe and productive 2022!
Saw some Gordon Highlanders in Stonehaven,what a scraggy plooky shower of shitheads, Aberdeenshire finest huh?
They were probably gay.
Hi, thanks for the reply. Yes, the armed forces should be representative of the country they serve but that does not mean they should adopt every value and idea that said country fosters up. The whole purpose of having an armed forces is to respond to crisis. If the crisis is within the armed forces then we’re all doomed. The more independence the armed forces has the better.
And what ideas and values and ideas should the British armed forces not adopt from the the UK? And how is the corollary of following those ideas a crisis with the armed forces?
Pacifism for one. I imagine that would cause a crisis.
Are those rhetorical questions? Or do you genuinely think the armed forces should adopt every idea the public conjure up? Surely you can’t be that misguided?!
Actually there can be a place for someone with beliefs in Pacifism in the armed forces, do you think, your average nurse or surgeon tends to be very much on the none combative scale of thinking, but the armed force can’t do without them.
Pacifism
noun
You don’t have to carry a rifle to kill people. Would you consider drone operators as pacifists also? An engineer can repair a tank that could go on to kill thousands, a medic can repair a soldier who could go on to kill thousands. The services of non-combatants such as medics and engineers are contributing to war and violence no matter which way you spin it.
sorry but that’s an invalid argument. Growing food feeds an army, paying taxes pays for an army. Total war harness the skills and wealth generation of every member of that nation.
so your argument is essentially self defeating, thats before the reality of the fact that many pacifists have served in armed forces in support roles.
As with any ideology it is not always black and white, it is a spectrum of how much an individual adopts said ideology. This argument has evolved into where the line should be drawn between pacifist and non-pacifist which is ultimately just a matter of perspective. I do not believe it is an invalid argument, but one that I do not wish to have at this time. My initial point was that pacifist ideology (if widely adopted by the majority) would cause a crisis within the armed forces, and that is true as it defeats the purpose of having armed forces if everyone refuses to fight. Happy holidays to you, all the best.
Eufster wrote:
Pacifism for one. I imagine that would cause a crisis.
Lance Corporal William Coltman a deeply religious rifleman in the 1st/6th North Staffords vowed never to carry a rifle again after getting caught in no man lands during a heavy artillery barrage and requested to be retrained as a stretcher bearer.
As a stretcher bearer he was mentioned in despatches and awarded the Croix de Guerre by France for rescuing injured and wounded soldiers from the battlefield
He was awarded the Military Medal (MM), in February 1917, for rescuing an officer who had been wounded in the thigh, from no man’s land, while under fire.
He won a bar to his MM – effectively a second MM – for his conduct over a few days in June, 1917. He had taken command to limit damage when an ammunition dump had been hit by mortar fire, then he bandaged up wounded men when battalion headquarters were shelled, and finally organised a rescue party to save men trapped in a collapsed trench tunnel.
In July, 1917, he was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) for searching for wounded soldiers under shell and machine gun fire throughout a long night, when his, ‘absolute indifference to danger had a most inspiring effect upon the rest of the men’.
Then on September 28, 1918 – the day the 1st/6th North Staffords captured the Riqueval Bridge, the single most decisive action in the Battle of the St Quentin Canal – Coltman had received a bar to his DCM for tending to wounded men under artillery fire and carrying them to safety. According to his citation, Coltman, ‘remained at his work without rest or sleep, taking no heed of either shell or machine-gun fire, and never rested until he was positive that our sector was clear of wounded’, setting the ‘highest example of fearlessness and devotion to duty’.
Then in Oct 1917 he was awarded the VC after he spent 48 hours under enemy fire rescuing soldiers from no man land. This award saw him become the most heavily decorated soldier (R&F) of the great war.
Yes service can come in many forms as does heroism.
Exactly. Liberal extremists focus on breaking established cultural norms and then creating groups of people who don’t share any of the same values, be that religion, backgrounds, culture and shared history, all so that diversity quotas are met as an overarching goal. The word diversity means things that are different, divergent, dissimilar, unlikeness. Why would a group or body of humans that do not share the same background and culture fight for one shared cause? They wouldn’t, which is why in the UK there are dozens of geographic enclaves of cultures, be that Muslim or Polish etc…etc. And this “diversity” is not reflected in the UK Armed Forces. Same in the States, the “great melting pot” of the USA is a falsehood, a joke. Is it an ideal? Yes. Does it make sense? To me, not at all. Diversity is not a strength it’s a weakness. A house divided…
Thanks for the reply. I am inclined to agree. Humans have a tendency to associate with like-minded individuals, we do this for many reasons, but mainly because it makes social exchanges easier and reduces the risk of conflict. Unity is strength, division is weakness. In civil life diversity may be tolerable to a degree, but in the military I am of the belief there should only be a single culture – military culture. Political correctness has seeped it’s way into every institution, and now even the armed forces are afraid to cause offense.
Bravo Rob. Bravo.
Thanks, appreciate that. As the world famous philosopher Nessa from Gavin and Stacey once said: “I calls it like I sees it.” 🙂
Well an example of people from different cultures and backgrounds fighting for the same cause would be the be the armed forces of the British Empire and Commonwealth that fought in two world wars and several other conflicts over a number of centuries. Do you think they’re should be a cap on the number of people serving in the British military who come form different ethnic or cultural backgrounds because do the concerns you highlight?
Not all were fighting for the same cause.
The Indian and other Commonwealth people fought because they were coerced or forced to fight. The Indian soldiers in WWI had no historical or cultural need to fight a war in Flanders against the Germans. They had no choice, they would have been shot and many were shot for “desertion.”
I’m a Conservative, which to me and many others, means I believe every person is unique, has rights (human rights, rights to equal treatment) has the right and potential to reach their highest levels unhindered by racism or other evils.
My solution: No racial CAPS, no quotas, no special rights, no special entry tests (i.e. maths is racist…). Then back it up with laws with teeth: if you an individual, are prosecuted for abusing a brown, black, gay, trans person/s the default term is 10 years inside. Get rid of all the special rights stuff, treat every person equal, and hold individuals accountable then jail them. But for some reason we see one person from a group (like the Met) do something – then all whites or all cops are bad.
Diversity is not a strength it is a weakness. Whenever I hear anyone say “diversity is a strength” I roll my eyes….every conflict none to man was caused by ethnic and religious division – this is a fact of history. Unfortunately liberal extremists have brought us to this point.
Yes.
To be honest Rob they are not liberals, the nature of the liberal is to have freedom of speech, freedom of ideas and personal freedom as well as an economic open society and equality of opportunity.
Telling people how they will think and closing down discussions around individual rights is not in any way liberal.
Yeah I agree. I’m definitely talking about present day “liberals” 👍
Have a ‘like’ Rob. Well said.
Cheers Dave.
And if everyone shared your egalitarian views maybe they wouldn’t need to keep track of who is what to make sure no group is being discriminated against (obviously it won’t do anything to help individuals). But frankly they probably still would if only to make sure they’re recruiting everyone they can.
All that said I do feel that the message being put out is the wrong one. So many adverts try to say something like “I’m different in some way but I’m accepted in the British Armed Forces” but usually end up saying “These people are different and those differences will inevitably make them a liability”.
My egalitarian views? Please explain to me which of my views you have mistaken to be egalitarian? Or did you reply to me by mistake?
“I’m more concerned about a soldiers lethality/competence than their ethnicity or gender.”
So my concern for the competency of soldiers makes me egalitarian (an advocate for equality of all people)?! I don’t follow your logic.
👌
Probably turn on their own army.
Total horseshite diversity is a curse on the armed forces and nothing but a ball and chain in the work place at large. The best suited for the role not people given the job based on box ticking shite. My fear is this kind of obsession is only gonna get worse under that wee dafty Radakin.
Not even the most ardent of beta boy soy latte lovers from Londinium would get on a plane with the pilot only being in the control seat cos he ticked a few boxes or go onto the operating table with a surgeon who likewise was only there due to diversity quotas.
This is why the West is so weak and pathetic no wonder Russia and China don’t take us seriously anyways that’s my last gobshite of the year you London boys will be glad to know.😂
Glenmorangie 12yr Malaga cask 👍🏻
🏴🇬🇧
I’m not sure where your anger comes from but it seems pretty crippling to you. I didn’t see anybody anywhere in this article saying that people got into the Forces without meeting the standards expected. So, all your points are utterly baseless. Are you the kind of person that objects to black people being in the forces because it looks different on parade?
Further, it’s well-studied that diversity of thought and less homogeneous organisations leads to more effective decision-making and organisations less prone to covering up or turning a blind eye to issues. And, believe it or not, there are deep-rooted issues in the Armed Forces around accountability, inefficiency, and resistance to modernisation (not just in the context of diversity). So, anything that can help with that is good in my view.
If your world looks better without women and minorities, then stick to hanging out at the local with your mates and leave the real world to the rest of us.
Hi,
Is there a title to the study? diversity of thought can get you fired.
True. If you have an opposing view you will be shouted down by the small but vocal mob for being “racist.”
I do find it irritating when people give someone a nasty label because they don’t think exactly as they do….. its the same all over…right wing and your a fascist, left wing and your a guardian reading communist….arrrrgghhhh is all I say to the labels people slap around…Sure I think you can feel someone is wrong or miss informed, but then have a respectful discussion as it may be you that was wrong and I’ll informed…. or you can impart a bit of information that helps the other person.
Couldn’t agree more.
That’s not anger. That’s a normal Artist post!
Mornin Daniele
Morning geoff.
Total shite trying to play that shitehoose card my position is very simple diversity is shite period that’s it. Everything should be based on merit I.E best suited most capable person for the job absolutely nothing extreme about that. Colour , gender, nationality, sexuality etc etc irrelevant. I can assure you this is not the case in the public sector. In many cases it becomes an obsession and ticking boxes is all that matters resulting in less capable qualified persons getting the roles.
if your trying to tell me you’d prefer somebody performing heart surgery on you if you ever needed it because of the colour of their skin or some other shite like that rather than them being the most qualified then good luck 🙈
anyways enjoy your Christmas son😃 we will just have to disagree 👍🏻
🏴🇬🇧
Tick box has crept into my area too, sadly.
Heterosexual middle aged white men are a dying species!
Agreed it’s a sad state of affairs however nothing Yuri Bezmenov didn’t warn the West about back in the 80’s .
have a good one amigo stay safe and no bar brawls 😉
🇬🇧🏴
😉👍You too mate.
ha ha ! You and me both- When do we get our day to celebrate ” hetro sexual white middle age manhood”? Can we also have a celebration parade?
.
Being of partial Anglo Saxon stock, I’d like to go on record that my people were oppressed by Romans, Vikings and Normans. They stole our lands and sold my people into slavery ! I am so aggrieved – one thousand yeses later and still we wait for justice!
Good Morning Klonkie! Hope you are well china!! I feel your pain-my ancestors, after suffering the nausea inducing passage across the choppy Irish Sea to Ulster from Scotland, in our mission to civilise the idol worshipping natives, were thanked by, inter alia being besieged in our LONDONderry castle and forced to live off rats and salty water until relieved by His Majesty’s Navy! No compensation for that neither!!😉
Morning Geoff
Excellent story and in keeping with the religious theme of the season!
Merry Xmas Bud. Hope you an your family have a cracker of a Christmas day (pun intended) in balmy sunny Durbs!
Look out for those mambas though!
Ah. The Romans!
Caesar himself took a million slaves during his campaigns in Gaul. France must be itching for reparations.
While we’re at it, lets take down all those statues in Rome of Emperors. They were all child molesters, slavers, and rapists.
Weren’t they?
Over to the Woke Brigade as to why they are not jumping up and down….or maybe the Italians have a bit more common sense?
“Can we also have a celebration parade?”
You must be joking! ( You are )
It would be “exclusive and racist”
Which is exactly the point that Artist was making in his own colourful way.
Cheers D -I though that might make your day! Seriously though though, I’d be to embarrassed to participate in any such sort of a parade!
Thanks for all your informative posts throughout the year. I really enjoy your commentary.
Merry Xmas to you and your family.
And a Merry Christmas to you and yours K. Take care and stay safe.
Sorry to be a the one to break this to you but the Anglos Saxons were never oppressed by the Romans, that was the Celts ( who are the second culture to inhabit these lands), angles and Saxons came from Germany ( were paid to come) after the retreat of the legion and fall of the western Roman Empire( to help keep the smelly Celts in Scotland form steeling from the wimpy civilised Celts In England ) , But instead of helping they spent their time steeling all the land from the roman-celts( the third distinct major cultural group to inhabit England)… the Anglo Saxons then got well oppressed by the Danes, they had a good old ruckus for a few hundred years sorted themselves out and became a mixed Saxon/Dane culture… who then got themselves oppressed by another bunch of Danes/Norwegians who for some reason decided they wanted to be french…. so basically the whole Anglo Saxon label is a bit rubbish and the English culture is a mixed Celt ( P and Q Celt), Roman (Hellenic Greece culture with and Italian twist) finally topped of with a whole bunch of Germans, Danes, and finally a mixed groupie of Norwegians and Danes pretending to be french blokes…… Basically never get drunk on your own or your left and right hands may start fighting with your middle as your average Anglo Saxon is a pretty mix of angry norther Europeans with a wee bit of Italian ( the Scots never got the Italian bit).
Merry Xmas Jonathan and thanks for the interesting detailed reply. In truth, I was aware of the Celts pre Roman but must confess I was rather lazy and frugal on the detail in my post!
From my limited grasp of of early UK history. I believe the Saxons filled the void left by the Roman departure circa 410 ish. Although I’m from the colonies(NZ), I find British history absolutely fascinating. I’m particularly awed by the Plantagenet dynasty, which is so good, you couldn’t make it up if you tried.
Bloody Romans though , what have they ever done for us? I feel a Monty Python moment coming on,
Ha Daniele-yes, as are heterosexual old white men such as myself and in my case to boot neither racist nor homophobic and yet we are put in ‘naughty boxes’ by the woke brigade.
Too true, but worse for those older. Try getting a job when you are white, hetero, male and in your 60s. I got one token interview from hundreds of job applications. I gave up trying.
Middle aged men of all types are a dying species… dropping dead at 50-60 is generally a skill men are very good at.
On the bright side, middle age does bring a load of medical conditions that can be cashed in for one of those tick boxes….by 50 Most men can tick a box if they really want to 😂😂,
As usual- your post is very much on point. I’ve enjoyed reading your comments over the year – so muchos gracias!
Merry Xmas Mate!
You’re right, and thanks for being brave enough to speak YOUR truth. You have rights too although you wouldn’t believe it today.
United Airlines said they want to fill cockpits with brown pilots. I Don’t care what your appearance or skin tone is, if you’re not a great pilot, why is having a brown skin tone a good thing flying a fully loaded 747? Why can’t liberals be colour blind like conservatives who only want best, most qualified person for the job???? Bizarre. World has gone mad.
One thing about the NHS is we don’t engage in such things and Have developed process to recruit absolutely anyone who has the ability, training and willingness to do the work To be honest with most of The jobs your lucky if You get one Person applying and some counties cannot even get one person ( that’s why we’re on 100,000 vacancies, no bugger either can do the job or want to do the job).
who wants to be responsible for a whole section of healthcare delivery for a population of a million for less than a lorry drivers paid or work in an ED as a staff nurse Dealing with dead And dying everyone’s for the same money as someone selling kitchens.
It’s the usual strawman argument we get every time from the bigots. “Some unqualified minority is taking your job”. Where in the article or any official document was it shown that the standards were lowered to allow a minority to achieve the same as their white counterpart? Actually just the thought that standards have to be lowered for minority to qualify is bigoted in itself.
Additionally you would think that with the well publicized recruitment and retention issues, people would be happy with expanding the potential talent pool of the armed forces. You never know where the next great idea or great leader will come from but ignorance and old bigotry might be a greater enemy that Russia or China.
And where did artist state that “some unqualified minority is taking your job”? And why mention white and ignore the female aspect to your supposed counter comment? Again it’s the fascist left attitude that “I will interpret what someone says in a way that confirms and shores up my own biases”!
Nice try. If you can’t see what is being said in that specific post or any of his other post on the topic then there is nothing that I can say to you to convince you otherwise.
What does getting on a plane with a pilot who got the job because his employer had to tick a few boxes mean to you?
Also I wasn’t ignoring the female aspect. I was under the impression that it’s obvious to everyone that women are considered a minority when it comes to diversity and the armed forces have historically been dominated by white males. That’s a statement of fact and there is no need to get defensive admitting that, no matter how you feel about the topic.
Again, just to be clear, my position is the west in general needs to expand the talent pool, regardless of ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender etc. How can you claim you have the best of the best when a significant portion of your population talent is not being tapped?
Get defensive? wrong assumption, I am actually just highlighting your own seemingly biased perception of his post. And you have confirmed that by stating “if I cant see what is being said in his post” etc. I can see he has a view which, he stated, people be employed and promoted on merit, and he did it with his own style of humour. I don’t think that’s an issue which any professional should challenge, do you? And are peoples personal traits mean they are bigots now? And your reply, to the female question I raised, with all due respect is just weak and window dressing to pad out the fact you only seemed to be concerned with heritage and colour.
“I can see he has a view which, he stated, people be employed and promoted on merit…”.
So let me ask, If that’s the case how does the idea of promoting diversity go against this in any way? Unless someone feels that the promoting of diversity will create a situation where merit is not the key factor in people being employed and promoted. Please enlighten me.
“And are peoples personal traits mean they are bigots now?” Yes, if I think my neighbor is less of a human or less capable a soldier than I am because he happens to be gay or a minority, then yes that would make me a bigot.
Firstly, the “Artist” stated he thinks that people may be promoted not by ability but by other factors, is that wrong to hold that view and opinion? maybe he has experience of that being so? Are people not allowed to voice an opinion they have, which may be contrary to certain people/organisations tactics and direction of political or social travel? And where did “Artist” state that he thinks people may be a less of a soldier due to being gay, minority etc? You implied he was bigoted, when in fact he didn’t say anything you are stating. Unfortunately your replies are pretty much now more humbug to pad out a justification, in which you are going off on one hell of a presumptuous tangent.
I see you won’t or can’t answer my question. That’s ok.
“stated he thinks that people may be promoted not by ability but by other factors, is that wrong to hold that view and opinion?”
On that point I totally agree. And you know who have historically been the people being promoted not by merit but by other factors? Do you know who have historically been overlooked even though they were qualified? I’ll let you answer those yourself if you are willing to be honest with yourself.
I welcome opinions that are contrary to mine. I actually look forward to people telling me that i’m wrong as it forces me to think and consider a different perspective. You really need to go back and read my post as I never said he said that. I used that example to explain bigotry and was hoping you would see the similarities but I guess we’re talking past each other at this point.
“Unfortunately your replies are pretty much now more humbug to pad out a justification, in which you are going off on one hell of a presumptuous tangent.”
Just say you can’t answer and call it a night. This has become tedious.
Is this now a game so you can say you won? You have given statements in regard to your perception of another’s view, and now you want me to answer rhetorical questions which you are using to pad out a weak initial reply to another.
If you bother to read my other posts on the subject, you will see I am totally for the stats as they ensure both a fair and effective recruiting tool, and that we have never had the “rose tinted period” where everyone was employed on merit…never…but as you say its getting tedious as you still seem to want to impose a view on others, and want to “win” this little piece of democracy in action. Will it make you feel better if I cancel myself now…..its the way forward it seems to a few! ok…hang on……..(silence) you’ve won.
No it’s definitely not a game as these things have real impact on real people’s lives.
Yes. Including White people who are excluded because of their colour in job advertisements!
Which was what Artist was driving at in his typically colourful post.
Yes! Its so refreshing to hear other voices after all of the lefts attempts at shutting down free speech. THANK YOU, STAND STRONG.
Intuitively(and backed by History from time immemorial) I believe that it is the role of men in the main to wage War as they are stronger and more aggresive by nature than women. If things are left”..regardless of gender etc…” then it is probable and dare I say, desirable for men to form the front line as a big majority BUT, and this is the conundrum, people who share your views might then say “We need more women on the front line!?!”
Regards
“Again, just to be clear, my position is the west in general needs to expand the talent pool, regardless of ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender etc. How can you claim you have the best of the best when a significant portion of your population talent is not being tapped?”
Exactly. Which is correct. But that is not Artists position as I read it, nor mine, nor others.
The issue is that it seems the white, straight, male, hetrosexual, delete as appropriate, population is excluded from the equation when expanding that talent pool. As you say “a significant portion of your population talent is not being tapped”
Well it’s not.
Which is why Artist says a position should be based on merit, the best available of any colour, creed, ethnicity.
Because a whole section of society is excluded.
Yet Artist is a “Bigot” for pointing it out.
Type “bbc job no white applicants” into Google as an example and see how many hits it gets. That is what Artist is on about.
Or type “Council job no white applicants” into Google.
Bigotry??? Why is it when it is the other way round it’s OK?
Ok sonny it seems you want to explain on my behalf as you know exactly what I was meaning 😃 let me clarify so everyone is crystal clear…
The pilot and surgeon analogies were to highlight the risk and danger involved in these roles and to the insanity of imposing diversity stipulations on said roles as an EXAMPLE.This has zero to do with bigotry racism sexism or any of the other perceived shite going on in your wee noggin.
The fact this article was written shows the MOD are wasting time with this and will doubtless have entire departments dedicated to ensuring set numbers of boxes are ticked in recruitment. Resources are precious and this kind of drivel is an inexcusable waste. A single set standard open to EVERYONE nothing bigoted in that.
let me tell you a wee story from the real world ,I went to primary school every teacher in the school every year I was there was female apart from the headmaster , my mum was a nurse and in the hospital she worked at where I often went with her all I saw was female nurses and staff she was a ward sister (boss) .Women ,minority argument? Shite
I would watch the news with my parents and learned the PM was a woman , I likewise saw the monarch also female and was therefore used to all these authority figures who weren’t men. I never thought oh this is wrong , all worked pretty well to me. I never heard any shite about there not being enough blokes teaching the kids or too many female nurses..
I migrated to secondary school mixed with other kids from different countries , cultures ,never felt prejudice or hate towards anyone and in general neither did any of the other thousand or so pupils at my school we all just accepted each other as we all belonged to our school, no diversity courses there either.
I got a little older went into the workplace and saw it was full of men and women funnily enough , different cultures ,skin colours , sexual orientation and everyone was paid according to their job role this again all seemed pretty fair to me and nobody was complaining.
then somewhere along the line the shite that is diversity started getting rammed down everyone’s throats dividing everyone into little groups all competing against one another . It is a divisive and grievance inducing ideology.
now I believe in everything on merit ,based on equal opportunity for ALL not equal outcomes for all. Can you please explain what it is you believe and where anything I’ve said is racist , bigoted , sexist , homophobic or any other suchlike ?
you know it’s very telling that in a previous unrelated article someone (canny mind the poster’s name) stated that not everyone’s life was worth the same and indicated that they agreed with Eugenics which I find disgusting and offensive yet not you or anybody else piped up about that awful concept to condemn such belief. Yet here we are mention diversity and your all over it spouting in my humble opinion shite.💩💩💩.
The bottom line is you can disagree with me which I’ve no problem with but when the old race and bigot card gets played ,sorry but just proves you’ve no argument and it’s a feeble attempt to shut down the discussion.
now it’s been a difficult year but the UKDJ articles have thankfully kept rolling and there’s been a fair few disagreements on here involving me so on on that basis I’d like to say from the bottom of my heart ,I’d like to take this chance to apologise… to absolutely NOBODY 👍🏻😎
Merry Christmas 😃👍🏻
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Exactly.
You’re the racist. He never said anything like that. You disagree with his opinions so you’re attacking him. Typical liberal or as I call them, left wing supremacists.
lmao. Are you drunk?
Liberal ideology is a dangerous cult. And more and more people are starting to get it.
You can critique his post (but that’s the Jock normality showing) but why presume and say childlike comments in regard to how you claim he thinks. You have just fell into the oft repeated trap that certain types fall into, if you don’t agree with a comment, twist it and use colour and sexism to presume about someone’s thought process! Sad, silly and weak effort at twisting debate but we see it used very often by those who are left of centre and want to cancel people!
I don’t think we’ll truly progress as a society until we stop measuring this sort of thing. In my view, all this does is reinforce and highlight the difference between people instead of recognizing we are all the same.
I know several professional people of colour who find the diversity thing patronizing and embarrassing. This may well be a minority, but I can only tell you what l know.
As for the question of troops of colour being on parade? The only comment I can add is that everyone should wear the same uniform headdress. A guardsman wears a bearskin- turbins etc should not be permitted . Again, all this does is reinforce the tyranny of diversity – them instead of acceptance of us all being the same.
If your religious or personal beliefs prevent you from wearing the uniform headdress, then perhaps the Armed forces are not for you.
Liberals are the ones drawing attention to skin color, sexual habits, gender, religion, etc. Etc. These left-wing supremacists are dividing the country so that everyone is at war with each other. Blame liberal for this…everyone else wants just to be equal, and blacks, gays, trans, do not want to be called out and treated like they are victims for their skin tones or appearance or who who they sleep with.
Rob- I’m liking the Martin Luther King comment. I can but only agree with your points, calling out the truth of the matter.
Thanks – we have to speak up – the other side does and they are winning the cultural war and their narrative that our western societies are inherently evil. For liberals it helps to have the media and big tech on their side – but that won’t last forever.
Good on you Rob, merry Xmas Bud
I’m guessing his anger comes from preachy liberals who are hell bent on destroying British culture and all the good it stands for. The great replacement, it’s real.
Thanks, Josh! Just sent a similar message to this guy who’s been on the Costa del Sol too long without his hat. 👏🏿👏🏿🤷🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🙏🏿
Well well artist, this simple won’t do, the SNP secret police will be knocking on the door in the new year to bundle you into an ice cream van with blacked out windows, you will be taken to a remote Woke re-education camp in the Highlands…
You ‘will’ embrace the current 18 gender types and take up the tamberine and non threatening, gender fluid basket weaving …..
aye JC sadly your probably not far from the truth 🤣🙈
in the battle between man and ice cream surveillance van the outcome is far from certain………..
Enjoy & Stay safe
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I just don’t get why some (and it is only some) people get so bothered about the diversity stats? Can any of you truly say that racism, sexism, homophobia etc has not stymied the careers of good and valuable people or made them feel excluded or even actively harmed when in the military?
Well said. A horror show reading some of the comments on here. You measure diversity stats just so you know you are recruiting/promoting on merit! Now, the decisions made on the back of this insight is where it gets messy and people get angry
It has, but its also being used to get votes so that politicians can get supreme power and then abuse that power. Example: America voted in a black man for President twice, yet people say conservatives and “Americans” are racists. How can that be when we know Obama was elected with many many conservative votes? The problem is that we don’t hold individuals to account, its hard to do that so we say ” this group of people are bad.” If there were laws where individuals were held to account many problems in society would be solved. But no, we can’t do that. Example: one or a few rogue cops do something evil in the Met and then ALL MET COPS BAD. This is the problem today that we have to solve IMO.
Diversity means a people who are divided. Separated by many things and no or few shared values. Example: Christians are now mocked and looked down upon for saying MERRY CHRISTMAS. In favor of “happy holidays.” But the UK is a majority white and still Christian country. Why are we even accepting that Merry Christmas harms people? Such nonsense!! Especially BRITISH values which are something we should hold onto, not flush down the toilet because some liberal said so. We are in a culture war, a battle for the survival of our people, our heritage and our culture. Why do we have to change? Its our country.
I think the so called war on Merry Christmas is made up. Anecdotally many non Christians view Xmas as a secular holiday like Halloween so don’t mind celebrating it in some from or it least being celebrated. Also what British values do you believe are under threat and how is that reflected in the conduct of the armed forces?
Haha Artiste(note fashionable ‘e’)! Howyra doin!?😄My take on race and ethnicity is-give people democracy and as far as possible equal opportunity and things must sort themselves from there. So the reason recent French national Football teams comprise of Black and Brown frenchies or American Basketball teams are predominantly Afro American, is because they are the best men for the job and the hue of their skin is irrelevant!
100% agree with you on your post “The Artist” well said!
Gone are the days of best person for the job!! Just look at the Civil Service you have to be a non white, disabled, sexual question mark just to get an interview!!!
I believe it.
It should always be the best person for the job and of those minorities most come from outside the UK anyway. Barmy WOKE killing our way of life and street cred of the Armed Forces that was once orderly and on merit (although not 100% either but better than now). Bags backed and ready for the off.
How is being against discrimination not a gods thing? Being woke means being against prejudice, which makes me wonder what some of the people protesting against stats are actually for?
Mate while I agree with your overall thought process, you have to agree that in todays society actually being “woke”, for some, means not allowing others opinions which they may perceive as harmful? And rather than challenge and front those opinions (regardless how offensive or not they may be) they use a form of group think to scare that person or organisation into silence.
Exactly.
I agree that diversity of thought should be not only allowed but encourage along with healthy debate that permits challenge to other opinions but that remains calm, proportionate and does not resort to ad hominem attacks. However, I fear that there some who who confuse their right to free speech with being allowed to speak without debate, that’s just a recipe for echo chambers which creates pockets of reinforcement loops and further fractures society.
Being woke is big business. It pays and you can get elected or rich if you say the right things. Look at celebrities, their career is over if there’s a whiff of conservative thinking. Look at politicians, their job is to target minorities and convince them the reason they aren’t millionaires is because if the white man. But the problem will only get fixed if you vote for me. Being woke actually pays and has privileges’.
But where to go? No, you’ll have to stay and fight for your culture if you really care.
Ethnicity… roughly in line with the general population…86% White; 8% Asian; 3.5% Black so no problem there. As far as women are concerned, as long as they get the same opportunities to join up fine.
Exactly, broadly good news.
It’s more concerning when organisations use terms like BAME. I mean, the MOD have embraced this culture but haven’t gone as far as the Police, were they have segregated associations based on gender and race within the organisation. Just imagine if an association for white police officers was created. Is the fitness test still different between men and women?
Its coming. Look what’s happening to natural born women, they are being demonized by the trans community because they are genetically and chromosomally female. Scary times.
The increase in the numbers of women is welcome. An untapped resource for sure.
Wonder how much the BAME increase is due to additional Gurkha recruitment?
So the diversity stats just translate into the less white men the better?
Personally, I don’t care what a soldier looks like or what gender they are. As long as people are hired on merit, the outcome is irrelevant.
Where did you get that 1st sentence from?
He’s a white man, and I’ll wager many white Men feel the same way. He’s allowed to feel things, not sure if you knew that. That right hasn’t been removed yet.
Asking a question or challenging an opinion is not the same as preventing someone to express that opinion to begin with. The first sentence does sound like it’s verging on displacement theory, a myth perpetuated by the alt right to excuse questionable policies to people they consider not to be ‘their own’. Why would white people worry about being represented in the armed forces in proportion to their ratio society? Surely there would happen naturally if their is no discrimination in the armed forces, as is claimed by some, as selection would just be based on merit?
I could say the alt-left are manipulating brown and black and gay people for votes all based on the myth that ALL WHITE MEN ARE EVIL AND RACIST. It goes both ways, alt-right and alt-left are both as bad as each other – admit it – and then let’s find a centrist solution.
Well, that I can agree with. There’s a lot of crackers folk out there on all sides aggressively peddling some nonsense. Unfortunately the barmy extremists seem to get most air time
What are you talking about? I asked where he got that diversity stats = less white men the better from. Bizarre response to link a question into a suggestion that I’m proposing banning thought 🤣🤦♀️👍
Not one senior officer of any branch will stand up and be against this,too much at stake for them to do so.
Yes.
removing political correctness and positive discrimination discussions there are a few very important reasons this important for our armed forces.
1) maximise the pool of recruits so you get the best. If over half the working population think the employer is crap then you limit your recruiting pool and the armed forces have struggled ( the nhs has this problem with nursing, as the number of women wishing to take up what is a hard difficult career and most men still don’t see it as mans work, even though it’s more brutal on the body and mind than most Men’s work).
2) It increase the interest in the armed forces across the voting public. meaning that good management of defence becomes more of a wide spread interest across the population and Politicians are interested in the things voters are interested in.
3) Women are on average better at some things than men in the same way men are on average better at some things than women.
4) An inclusive society is a safe society and difficult for extremists or foreign powers to manipulate, this is now at a whole new level in the Information Age and social cohesion/inclusion needs to be part of defence planning.
Well said
I’ve seen highly competent people from ethnic minorities passed over for promotion for years while white male managers that are incompetent keep their jobs, in my 20 years working in Banking/Insurance. From tales of the past with other colleagues it used to be even worse before the equal pay act when wages went up in the private sector with years served automatically instead of performance based increases there was a generation of lazy white men in business who got a shock when pay went to performance and found their more competent female colleagues getting paid more and in some cases some resentment.
Yes this is my experience too here in the States. Ironically, those arguing against diversity seem to be making the same point: things should be based on merit across the board. Surely there are instances like you describe but also instances were a more competent caucasian gets passed over in order to meet a diversity requirement. Being only half British myself, I appreciate the diversity of my background and I do think it has given me some inate ability to bridge gaps/resolve confilcts between people. Surely diversity is good in any team sport, you need people with different skills, not 11 goalies or the current New York Yankees that can only hit home runs. Diversity certainly not all bad but I see the other side too. I’ve come to believe that when minorities show enough respect to assimilate into the culture as best they can optimal outcomes can happen.
But two wrongs don’t make a right. A hard pendulum swing benefits no one and creates more division and anger. Society wants to blame someone and we know that someone is the white male. I don’t think this will end well. Pray for your country.
BAME? I do not know one person of African Heritage I know, that likes or even agrees with that stupid acronym. In fact one of the lads goes out of his way to challenge and embarrass the head shed white folk who seem to think it’s “right on” to say it, as they are too scared to describe a person as per their heritage! He does make me laugh and it’s cringeworthy seeing the wet white wannabes start sweating when he challenges them, as he is ripping it out of them, and actually taking the piss (they know it but are scared and unsure what to say to him)! He tells them he is English of African descent and why call him an an acronym etc! As for diversity stats, yes they are needed IMHO in order to ensure we are tapping the recruitment pool in an effective and fair way. Yes there will be an unfortunate aspect of not necessary the right person for the job (on merit as it should be) but that’s been the case for many years if we look at nepotism etc, without taking into sex and colour if we are all honest.
It’s white liberals making up all this stuff. I have US, UK black and African friends, they don’t want to be viewed as crippled victims and want liberals to stop ” helping them so that the white liberal gets elected.” Black people are just as successful and just as good at anything as whites but liberals keep telling them they aren’t. Not only patronizing but sickening. And all for ideological scores and political votes.
Yes this is the difficult bit, by trying to create a more equal society they have created a number of meaningless labels. No one is a BAME they are first a human being unique from every other human being, with a set of skills and a mind that can provide so much benefit, second they are a product of their family, thirdly a product of their individual culture, to mix all of those thousands of cultures, millions of families and billions of individuals into the label BAME is quite frankly insulting, stupid in the extreme and liable to create tensions in society that create unforeseen ( well they can be foreseen if your willing to think about it and move away from group think for a bit).
What we need to do is make sure everyone has equality of opportunity ( which they don’t at present) and are then treaded as individuals with their strengths and weaknesses supported and used in the best possible way for the benefit of both society and so they can reach self actualisation ( happiness through being fulfilled in purpose and having needs met).
I’m a bit sensitive around this, as I’ve got a pretty interesting learning disability in that I’m as dyslexic as they come ( you will note this from my posts, being a bit atypical in spelling and language). I could not read until I was 11 and did not pass a single O level when I left school ( schools at that time could not really support 12 year olds that could not spell basic words, but could describe complex natural systems and debate geopolitics with an informed adult). But I,ve ended up with 3 Degrees and working at a high level across complex systems ( cant spell Toffee or understand the rules of written language but I notice what others miss, get complexity and see the order in chaos) So I’m a firm believer in always giving everyone the support they need to become the best they can be. From my school performance I could have ended up staking shelves instead I design healthcare systems.
I guess the key question is ” does this make for better soldiers”?
It should not be what skin you are in or what way you swing,
Its the 3 horse race that should set the pace,
Strength of a cart horse,
Speed of a race horse,
Brains of a rocking horse, that sets the cause for your adventure in the UK Force.
I should have been a rapper but I am white so I’m Cracker
Happy Chrimbo and I hope 2022 is better that 2021.
I bought in a charity shop, a copy of “Out in the Army” by James Wharton. He was a trooper in the Blues & Royals. He did ceremonial at Buck House & Windsor. He did a combat tour in Iraq. A training tour with Prince Harry in his tank in Canada. He has been honest about the highs & lows of being gay in the forces. He is no better & no worse than his straight comrades around him. They spotted he was not himself & got him to admit he was gay after a few drinks. Once he was out, he went back to his former self. He no longer had the stress of hiding his secret. Most of the younger troopers were “cool” with it. Only the old hands from the days of the total ban, had initial problems. He got queer bashed by a fellow trooper, who turned out years later to be a deep closet case. He ended up being the first open gay on the cover of Soldier magazine. I suspect that when the sh*t hits the fan, you do not care if the guys next to you are black, white, straight, gay. Just as long as they are on your side & doing their bit, backing you up.
Am I the only one puzzled that BAME numbers have gone up for both Regular and Reserves, but overall the intake figure has gone down by quite a lot? So the recent past recruiting effort worked in gettin g more BAME in, but this years recruiting effort didn’t?
Meanwhile in the real world – whilst we work out what gender neutral toilets our troops need to use the Chinese are Russians are developing aggressive and lethal killing machines for their troops…Let’s hope the Russian’s and Chinese don’t want to start WW111 whilst our troops want to fill in diversity quotas…look at what happened to the police force when they became the the police service…all degrees but with no intellect or even strength/determination to do the actual job they are paid to do other watching the internet..Wait until every soldier is required to do a degree from the university of the back end of nowhere…I’m filled with dread we have a Tory government and this woke nonsense is accelerating apace…..makes you wonder who is really in charge of this agenda behind the scenes..
If they start to recruit in a similar way to the civilian services, it could lead to an imbalance in favour of those fitting the agenda rather than the best recruits and have a deleterious effect on morale. Keep standards high and get the best recruits.
Are the BBC in charge of MoD recruitment? 😉
I gotta ask, and it may come off as “disrespectful” or “rude” to the author: But who cares about this? This is just identity politics rubbing it’s nose in where it doesn’t belong (not that it belongs anywhere) when it should really just bugger off.
And “BAME”, are you kidding me? “Black And Minority Ethnic”. You really think that nonsensical acronym is just a handy-dandy way of describing a group? Purely utilitarian? No, it’s a political buzzword. Talk about things that matter to defence, not things that matter to ideologues.