An F-35 has landed facing the stern, not bow, before bringing the jet to a hover and gently setting down on HMS Prince of Wales.
The ‘back-to-front’ manoeuvre is intended to give pilots and the flight deck team more options to safely land the jet in an emergency.
🇬🇧 "Clear to land…."
🇺🇸 "Aft facing…"
There's no right or wrong way to land…just @thef35 way…
🇬🇧 🤝 🇺🇸 pic.twitter.com/NcobQxWAbw
— HMS Prince of Wales (@HMSPWLS) October 23, 2023
The carrier recently sailed for her autumn deployment to the United States – her longest yet, pushing the limits of aircraft carrier operations with drones, fifth-generation stealth fighters, tilt-rotors and helicopters. Shes operating off the east coast of the United States.
By the time she returns home shortly before Christmas, the Royal Navy say that they expect that the ship will have:
- Operated advanced drone technologies, demonstrating the delivery of vital supplies without the need to use helicopters;
- Landed and launched F-35 Lightning stealth fighters in more ways, more quickly and in the harshest of sea conditions to increase the strike carrier’s firepower;
- Increased the range and conditions in which the US Marine Corps’ impressive MV-22 Osprey tilt rotor aircraft can operate.
A versatile aircraft and versatile carrier! Off subject but pertinent- George, please can UKDJ give it’s take on the Mail story regarding a German veto on the sale of Typhoons to the Middle East? This would be a huge blow to the UK if it succeeds
Germany has been Vetoing typhoon sakes to Saudi Arabia for years, it’s nothing new.
Exactly. Germany has some strong feelings about selling things to nations with shady human rights situations. It’s not something new.
what is interesting though is that German industry is becoming antsy about the end of Typhoon production before a replacement https://www.defense-aerospace.com/german-aerospace-industry-faces-end-of-the-typhoon-program/
…and yet it’s been selling shed loads to Russia without a second thought.
Oh, exactly what military equipment does Germany sell to Russia?
Well they sold 8 million dollars of cabbages and root veggies to Russia in 2022 and everyone know the Russia armed forces use a lot of cabbages.
You are so right! “Schii i kasha, Pishcha nasha”. Old Russian saying meaning: “Cabbages and porridge are our food.” And of course an army marches on its stomach.
And straight to the loo!
The Americans march on cholesterol, and burgers
Damned morals, getting in the way of a good arms sale…
Pity they don’t have the same approach to men of military age from the same middle east. Invading europe in vast numbers. It must be the largest ever invasion force.
The problem is the German Green Party have the Chancellor by the B&££$ he will not budge on this to anyone. Even the German Aircraft Industry and the Trades Unions can’t get him to move on this one. He has publicly Veto’d it and if he backs down he and his coalition is out, simple as that. As it stands Germany, Spain and Italy have orders for Typhoons on order but those numbers aren’t sufficient to plug the gap till the next generation of Aircraft. Dassault are presently stepping into the breach, quell surprise ! The odd thing is that… Read more »
Any remote possibility of the UK ordering these 40 odd Typhoons pre – Tempest?
We’ll still be waiting for Hank the yank to get the F35’s built.
Just been reading about that earlier it is a worry 🤔
The worry is the UK’s willingness to arm that disgusting regime. Saudi is not our ally, it has been the rotten heart of Wahabi terror since the Raj. An ally would not cut hydrocarbon production while the West is shut off from the fuels from Russia. Training and arming Saudis should be a criminal act of terrorism support.
I think it’s probably about not making them an enemy really, like it or not that would be a disaster on many fronts. As it becomes more independent it’s inevitably playing various sides off against each other, it’s becoming de rigueur for post colonial upwardly mobile shithouse regimes. Let’s wean ourselves off oil asap though they will probably have bought us by then.
Yes, strategic trade location, Red Sea, Suez, Persian Gulf, and necessary fuel source. If we lose access and any influence there then who will that go too? Ugly as it is they’re a counter and buffer of sorts to Iran. And isn’t SA looking at providing funds for Tempest plus they’ve just landed in the 2034 World Cup!
Go the bokke QD63! I’m rather proud of the fact that SA have only participated in 8 world cups and won four – not bad.
Lol.. I meant Saudi Arabia!! But yes, good on the other SA 🇿🇦. Too strong! Going well in the cricket too!! Any extra A140/T31 sales anyone? Whats happening to the Poms in the cricket? Seems like they’ve dropped their marbles! 😁 🇬🇧 🇦🇺 🇳🇿
So sorry Mate. I misread your post due to my terrible RSA rugby/cricket bias ! My apologies.
Your SA 🇿🇦 is also an important partner! Seem to be more in with the Russian’s and Chinese. Hope the West stays in touch even if it’s cricket and rugby!!
South Africa has put its lot in with the losing side if they are seen as partners to China and Russia.
Softly, softly, hopefully the West can get them back from straying over to the other side too much. Who knows what wheeling and dealing is going on at the moment. Access to, the monitoring of and keeping international shipping trade lanes open is all part of the big power squeezes and jostling going on. Like to see a few more affordable T31s in the RN fleet so they can be in more places. Others here are saying the same.
You’re 100% correct Mr Bell.
Money talks basically being not perhaps being the worst in the region.
History plays its part aswell. Once weapons are sold follow on orders are easier to get.
Geopolitics I’m afraid, it’s hold your nose or loss influence and the Middle East is not only important for hydrocarbons most of the worlds key shipping lanes go past it….any future western china war will involve holding and blockading the Middle Eastern sea lanes.
The Times is reporting that Germany may ditch the Franco German 6th gen agreement in favour of the UK…and drop the block on Typhoon sales.
And have Germany do the same all over again? At the very least *if* Germany is allowed in, its told in no uncertain terms it has no say in where its sold and that its a very, very junior partner.
Germany was a total disaster for the Eurofighter.
Just reading the Runes…UK rejoins Boxer, Rheinmetall teams up with BAE, King Charles rapturous reception on visit to his homeland…seems to me the Anglo-Saxon star is in the ascendant 🙂
But the UK left the EU. I hope you’re not suggesting that Brexit might not be a failure!!!
You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment 🙂
Japan, Italy, Germany… Yea! The band is getting back together. Bet you did Nazi this happening. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
It’s girl power…Georgia Meloni. Come the election I’m voting Brothers of Italy 🙂
For a moment I thought they’d SRVL’d and I was impressed. I feel like this could be done with just spinning the F-35 around? I’m sure someone with more experience flying VTOL’s can correct my impression.
Does anybody know what is happening with Big Lizzie?
She is back at Portsmouth a few weeks earlier than planned with rumours about a problem with her lifts
She also has at least half a dozen F35’s and a few helicopters on her deck today with storm Ciaran fast approaching.
There is a picture of her on Navy Lookout photo wall showing a high reach crane at the top radar mast
??? Yeh, what’s that about??? 😳
GEORGE ukdj, what’s happening to QE??? 😳
If it is a problem with the lifts they are looking at a very different part of the ship, with three guys on top of a very long crane looking at what appears to be part of the EW kit on the top of the mast.
I suspect there is just a few days built into the programme and they have come in to re store and given everyone a run ashore. Portsmouth Evening News apparently reported that “eagle eyed” people had spotted her coming in. Not sure you need very good eyesight for something that big!
You’d need binoculars NOT to notice it really, make sure you’re concentrating hard in the other direction. On a different note, has anyone found footage of the QEs turning around in Portsmouth. I visit often and by eye, it looks like they’d block the channel completely, certainly no room for the 50m exlusion zone on either side
Re Deploying to the Med ?
NL say she is sailing back out tomorrow to continue CSG23.
Thanks
Saw that and breathed a sigh of relief
Was slightly worried that those nice shiny expensive birds on deck might take off by themselves or be hit by flying trampolines in the storm🙃
Hi Dern, as was explained to me (simply) by an 801 SHar pilot, in theory yes, in practice very tricky! Something to do with surface airflow, pilot disorientation, and computer input /acceptance, why would you need to.
🙃Not only backward swimmers, but backwards flyers, ta da. FLY NAVY. C’mon 809sqdn. 👍👌🛫
Oh, area they still steaming into the wind?
Yeah, now I could see how that would add since trickiness to the procedure.
Up until reading that I had it as the equivalent to VTOL landing “backwards” at an airport! 😂
I remember a friend from Bae told me his company was contacted by the defence ministry when Typhoon was being developed. The Germans we’re talking about cuts on their purchases. The UK government said ok but your allocation of the contract will go to British companies. The German government changed their minds and the full amount of aircraft was purchased. The Germans always back down when their manufacturing is being affected.
The Germans aren’t a reliable partner on defense programs that require constant investment. The French and Italians will spend money down range, but the germans are always looking for “good enough” aka “cheap as possible”.
More interesting to me is the comment that they also practised the capability to take off vertically ‘ without requiring the ramp’ Sadly can’t find any video to support, have however found footage of an F35B doing this from land at AFB Patuxcent River , had seen an X35 demonstrate this but not a production B. Much more useful to me than landing backwards. The ability to put down in an emergency on an LPD or RFA and then takeoff again once repaired even if only for a short hop to rejoin the carrier seems pretty useful. I believe a… Read more »
Don’t quote me but I thought RFA Argus could also carry Harriers (for transport only) but got to the Falklands just to late. But trials to vertically land and take off from a smaller deck could be useful, especially if the carriers flight deck was damaged in a war time or for another reason? Better than ditching the F35 into sea. Strength and heat resistance is obviously a huge factor
I believe the issue was that a vertical takeoff severely restricted the load that the aircraft could carry and this restricted its usefulness. No idea how much damage the odd vto would cause to an untreated deck. In extremis some hose work might be needed?? AA
Yeah there would be limited operations with regards to weapons and fuel load but I’m just talking about a back up if a carrier was damaged. It would make sense to consider it when planning the new MRSS
Atlantic conveyor container ship carried harriers to the falklands. Luckily they took off and went to the carriers before she was sunk.
The harrier could operate lots of places. Even the pebble mill car park.
F35 needs a bit of heat protection for landing
Yeah I looked it up and read an article after I wrote my comment. I also read that Argus was capable of carrying 12 harriers but this was an old article so it was probably when it still had two lifts?
H Mark- re Argus, that is an impressive number. I doubt they could manage sustained flight ops for 12 though ,maybe half? The big challenge would be vertical take offs. Real limitations around fuel capability and payload.
I think 12 was surge capacity for transporting the harriers? Plus I doubt that it would be possible since the hospital and medical facilities were put in plus one of the aircraft lifts were removed? She has capacity for up to 9 merlins
cheers Mark -thank you
I can state that the Harrier GR7 was successfully trialled on both the Argus and another RFA, which if I remember correctly was the Fort Victoria..
I think they would rather loss the jet and SAR the pilot that risk landing something like an F35 on an untried platform who’s flight deck was not designed for it…a great way to at best damage a ship,at worst kill people.
Of course people’s lives should be number one priority. Like a put in a previous comment, keeping an eye on the ability to land an f35b on the future MRSS that will replace the Albion class, Bay class and Argus would be a great addition to give options during war or emergency with limited operational capabilities giving the RN more depth
Pilot safety is obviously paramount but these Planes are very expensive -where theres a will theres a way 👍 – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alraigo_incident
£100 million of jet? hOW much do you think it costs to repair the deck after a single landing? At least safe until it can get to port, surely?
Its the safety case..if you going to loose the jet then you’ve lost the jet..trying to land the jet on a small deck of some random RFA is a very very bad idea.. 1) ground crew that is not trained to handle that aircraft landing, securing or taking off. 2) the pilot that’s not qualified to land on that deck. Asking a pilot in a high stress situation ( damaged aircraft) to do something they are not trained to do is foolish. 3) the deck is not designed for that aircraft and may not survive…there is a packed ship under… Read more »
Thanks that’s a pretty comprehensive argument, always happy to learn new things
No your right mate I have the real photo took at the time of the conflict .
There is a documentary of the X32 vs the X35. They showed the X35 taking off vertically, transiting to forward flight, accelerating to supersonic speeds, then recovering back to the airfield to do a vertical landing. The X32 by contrast couldn’t take-off vertically without removing items and only being partially fuelled. It’s one of the reasons why Lockheed Martin won the contract over Boeing.
I don’t think they could do that with F35…it would essentially melt the deck as it landed and took off…there would:also be the load on the deck from weight how to secure the thing ect….no practice or safety procedures..it would be a good way to loss a ship and kill a few people at worst and cause significant damage at best….they would I’m sure simple prefer to loss the jet and SAR the pilot.
Useful thing for land ops though, especially as reduced range/endurance would not be as much of a problem. The return of Harrier style landing mats in a forest?
Interestingly this is one of the areas where the old harriers had an advantage…at present the F35b will destroy any of the temporary landing options..it will even spall off and destroy normal concrete runways..so you end up with a fod nightmare…..1000degrees c of heating is a lot.
Surely one of the biggest increases in flexibility would be to increase the area of the heat-resistant coating on the deck – at the moment it appears to be only on the assigned landing spots, or have I got that wrong?
Think you are correct – the Heat Friendly coating is quite specialised,probably quite expensive to use and has to be frequently replaced so that probably rules out more use of it than seems necessary.
When you say ‘frequently replaced’, are we talking about something that can be done on Op’s, or is this a dockyard job? I’m thinking of how quickly it could be extended if needs must.
There’s a great article about the deck coating on DandD coatings website. It says it will last the 50 years.
https://www.ddcoatings.co.uk/1275/new-deck-coating-hms-queen-elizabeth-aircraft-carrier
Which is a big claim but rectification work has already been carried out on the deck of HMS QE so that seems not to be the case.Having a look there seems to be several Companies that are claiming that they have supplied the Deck Coatings for the Carriers so there is some confusion over the matter.
It would have to be done in a Dockyard 👍
Is it just me or does the requirement of operating mojave drone been removed from the navies statement?
Great stuff. F35s “…walking backwards for Christmas.”? Answers the question that was bugging me about which QE CVA is docked in Pompey atm with a deck full of F35s-Must be QE herself if POW is still off the US east coast. The direct HMS Warior cam page hasn’t worked a while, so I was relieved to find the Youtube channel for it last night. Been really missing watching the harbour & weather there from the UK’s “Far East” here. Still a bit concerned the F35s aren’t sfaely in their hangers ashore or stowed below in the carrier hanger decck with… Read more »
Messy Hangar board in the ACR, tut, tut. 😁
All good stuff. When will we be acquiring tilt rotor technology?
I recall fixed wing assets of the USMC have proven the concept of air to air refuelling from the Osprey. Is that an option for us. It would fill a current capability gap.
And for their next trick….landing/refuelling on the Bays, Argus and future MRSS’s?
Landing and re-fueling probably not a problem but taking off would be.
Thank you Gentlemen for all your replies regarding Typhoons and Germany. I was out with the Missus at a quiz night and only got home at 10 pm-way past my bedtime!!
Just wondering – is the deck of the lifts on the aircraft carrier capable of direct landing by the F-35B?
Just wondering George,
Can an F35b land directly on the carrier lift (as in, is the lift deck heat treated too)
For fastest turnaround?
No. Lifts are for taking aircraft from the flight deck to the hangar.
Or SRVL into the hangar, given that is the obvious next step? I doubt it, the the lifts are quite close to islands and, importantly, on the starboard side with a difficult approach given the Navy’s habit of approaching up the port side and sliding over to the landing spot. Would need major rejigging for that to be safe
Better to land rolling, as you suggested
Well, that’s one thing US carriers can’t do. But IIRC USMC F-35B’s have very occasionally done this when landing on USN LHA/LHD’s. Presumably this is due to the flight deck being crammed with dozens of other aircraft and helos, and the safest approach to the landing spot being ‘back to front’. Of course flight deck congestion is not a problem that the QEC have ever had to face, nor are they likely to in the next few years.
If the Israeli situation gets worse I still think it is likely that the u.k will Send a strike group into the Mediterraneaid like to see. Italian, french,and Spanish groups deployed around their flat tops ccavoour and Juan Carlos
The main command structure on an aircraft carrier is surely the principle radar blip for an enemy. So can someone explain to me why the British carrier has TWO?