Shadow Defence Secretary James Cartlidge (Conservative – South Suffolk) questioned the strength of UK–France defence cooperation in the Commons this week, highlighting what he described as a contradiction between close military work and French efforts to exclude the UK from a major European defence fund.

Cartlidge opened by associating the Opposition with Defence Secretary John Healey’s tribute to Group Captain Paddy Hemingway, before turning to a key point of contention:

“On the potential peacekeeping force for Ukraine, we have heard from the Secretary of State that it is jointly British and French. In fact, in every one of his answers he stressed the amount of work we are doing with France. Is it therefore not extraordinary that, at the very same time, France should be working to undermine our defence industry by having us excluded from a £150 billion European defence fund, which will include other non-EU states?”

Healey pushed back, framing the concern as pessimistic: “The hon. Gentleman is clearly a glass-half-empty type of guy.” He went on to clarify the Government’s position: “The European Union, when it produced its defence and security white paper last week, set in place specific arrangements for any third nation, such as the UK, that strikes a defence and security partnership with the European Union. That is exactly what we went to the country with, promising to undertake that as a UK Government.”

“Any country with a partnership in place then potentially has access to those sorts of programmes and that sort of funding, and that is what we will try to negotiate for this country and our industry.”

In a follow-up, Cartlidge defended Britain’s broader contribution to European defence: “We provide our nuclear deterrent unconditionally to European NATO countries 24/7, our Army is in Estonia defending Europe’s eastern flank, and we have done more than any other European nation to support Ukraine.”

He pressed further: “Will the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister stand up to President Macron and stress to him that this is the worst possible time to prioritise fishing rights over Europe’s collective security?”

Healey responded firmly: “I just ask the hon. Gentleman to drop that Brexit rhetoric.” He reiterated the strength of current cooperation: “We are leading efforts with the French Government and the French military to meet the challenge of the US and the requirements of Ukraine to have a coalition of countries willing to stand with Ukraine in the context of a negotiated peace.”

“To help them secure enduring stability and deterrence, to prevent Russia re-invading that sovereign country.”

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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58 COMMENTS

      • Me too …well the “proud of my vote” aspect anyway and would do it all again with no hesitation…although as my moniker suggests I do like to moan…and I do like to think I am good at it-I reckon I could moan for England.

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    • Well as you are obviously still whinging about us leaving its a bit of the pot calling the kettle black isn’t it?

    • Another Brexiteer here, it doesn’t take a Rocket Scientist to work out that Brexit was completely undeliverable, the Establishment didn’t want to enact it, the EU didn’t want to play Ball, quite the opposite. Personally I think we have ended up with the worst of both worlds. But if I had the vote again I’d still vote leave, no question.

      • Why would the EU want to “play ball” with a former member, the job of the EU was and is to look out for the interests of its current members?

        • It didn’t want to ‘Play Ball’ because other Countries were poised to make a similar decision to us in holding a Referendum on EU Membership, of which an Exit from the EU was a likely result.The EU made the process of us leaving as difficult and painful as possible ( aided by our own hopeless Politicians BTW) to discourage said other Countries from going down the same route.This was known in 2016-17 and yet when did we finally leave ( in name only ) ?.BTW in negotiations to leave we were still a member,not a Former Member as you suggest – School Boy error on your part.

          • You stopped being a member in relation to leaving when you activated Article 50, long before the actual deal. Hence why the 27 held routine meetings on the topic with the U.K. reps not included, and in other matters the U.K. voluntarily absented itself, like the budget talks. As such, yes the future needs/wants of the U.K. wasn’t the Commissions mandate.

            And no it had nothing to do with what domestic positions parties held, the Commission asked what the 27 wanted, got the mandate from that and went from there. The aim, achieve the maximum value and results for the 27, whether that suited the U.K. or not, same as any international discussion/talks.

            Basically the U.K. got exactly what it voted for, it was treated the bog standard same as other countries, and yet for some reason people still feel the need to complain about how “mean” the EU was. The EU had no duty to “play nice” with the U.K.

          • @mark no it did not, but it was and is geostrategically idiocy to piss of one of only 2 European democracies that:

            1) has a 50% of the continents strategic nuclear deterrent that it pays for to cover the EU
            2) has around 50% of the continents capabilities for expeditionary warfare
            3) 60% of the continents SSNs
            4) 70% of the continent’s carrier capacity

            Essentially the EU hide behind NATO, as we have all noted the world is now changing NATO is collapsing around the EUs ears if it plays the same game with the Uk again and the UK actually decided is better off pursuing a U.S. aligned policy the EU is military and geostrategically screwed as it will have lost 50% of its already inadequate strategic deterrence and no effective expediency capability without the Uk..and it cannot in any reasonable timeframe replace 7 SSNs, 2 70,000 ton carriers, 4 SSBNs. That’s around 60 billion worth of irreplaceable capabilities the UK brings to the table and if the EU just keeps on think..but that’s just a NATO commitment that does not count it will loss the UK.. remember we do sit on the very western edge..in the end if Russia ate the Baltics and we sat it out how much would it really truly impact a UK that was US aligned and has the same laissez faire attitude to Russia and Eastern Europe as the U.S. has and is developing…

            It’s a Different world the EU needs to adapt and hold its allies close and not make assumptions on the Uk because a a now moribund treaty organisation.

    • I think your big problem is the EU is now very very likely to become everything the brexiters were worried about and that is a defacto Neo European empire .. the new order we are seeing is very likely to push an agenda of the EU now leading foreign policy and defence for its member states. So everything everyone was worried about is likely now to be forced very quickly.

      So I will happily say with the way the geostrategic situation has panned out I’m glad we did leave as it gives us options we would not have as an EU member..let’s be honest non of them are great options but at least we get to choose what shite sandwich we eat and maybe just maybe find the correct course for the UK.

      It’s going to be hard because I don’t believe the U.S. will change course and it will double down on the MAGA movement, which is at its heart essentially pretty closes to a Neo fascist movement ( Don’t give me the emotional it’s not the third Reich..I know it’s not, you don’t have to be a mass murdering nutter to be a fascist and I’m not actually making a moral statement about it..just noting the core characteristics of MAGA..there are any number of sane non nutter fascists…just like the are any number of sane non nutter communists… and yes you can be a fascist without being racist)

      Secondly the EU is going to double down and I think this is the trauma that will transition it into a true European super state and future superpower..

      The likely hood is this new Neo fascist US and European Neo empire are going to get on like house on fire… in that they both try to burn each others houses down at every opportunity…stuck in between the two will be the Jolly sensible UK trying to throw buckets of water over the fires the two large children in the room keep lighting and in the background the Russians who let’s be honest are going to spend all their time trying to dump oil on the fires and stick a knife in the Uk.

      • Great point. 500 years of trying to prevent a single centre of dominance on the continent and about 50 years of actively encouraging it!

        Our politicians of course, have only been around during the latter period and we can’t get rid of the fuckers.

      • Jonathan, with the greatest of respect, I think you grossly overestimate the power of the EU. All this talk over €150bn of debt is a lot of hot air and verbal flatulence. If you follow internal EU politics you would know that the EU will spend 10-15 year squabbling over who will guarantee the loan, where will the rest of the 800bn come from, where will it be spent, will Dutch, Swedish and German tax payers have to fund the French deficit to pay for the French Military, can we use it for wind turbines or illegal migrant accommodation. It’s already happening. It’s really pathetic and if you’re a Brexiteer you should find it hilarious. In the end there will be no serious agreement, only a political fudge and nothing worthwhile accomplished. Meanwhile the EU economy will continue to circle the plug hole and the EU demographic time bomb will continue to tick increasingly faster and we will be ever deeper in the mire with no answers and no solutions.

    • Wrong. Brexit is not the issue the real one is that Europe expects the UK to do as they want. Having spend my military service for 49 years defending the Uk and Europe it is about time some of our partners start doing the same!!

    • Really!
      From where I sit here in the EU watching the UK media, the remainers have done nothing but whinge, belittle and insult their own country since 2016. What a totally shameful bunch of unpleasant ingrates you are. Get over it; you lost and you’re better off for it.

      From small acorns mighty oaks grow. Not so long ago we thought Nigel Farage was a joke, Brexiteers were loons and that the UK would self-destruct. Not anymore. In this era of turmoil and stormy seas, economically, geopolitically and in your response to the pandemic, you have put the EU to shame.
      To many of us now it seems that it is the remainers who are the cackling loons.

    • Reply to ElyH
      Really!
      From where I sit here in the EU watching the UK media, the remainers have done nothing but whinge, belittle and insult their own country since 2016. What a totally shameful bunch of unpleasant ingrates you are. Get over it; you lost and you’re better off for it.

      Not so long ago we thought Nigel Farage was a joke, Brexiteers were loons and that the UK would self-destruct. Not anymore. In this era of turmoil and stormy seas, economically, militarily, geopolitically and in your response to the pandemic, you have put the EU to shame.
      To many of us now it seems that it is the remainers who are the cackling loons.

  2. Do we have a defence fund that EU countries have access to? There is a difference between having access to EU funds and joining forces in projects where the UK puts it’s own money in.

    • We don’t but we could make an equivalent one, then use that as a bargaining chip to merge with the EU one. Else join theirs either as a member (procuring through the scheme with 1+ EU member state and providing up to 100% of the content) or as a partner (providing a max of 35% content but not paying in or procuring equipment for our own forces). What terms we get for each might tilt the govt’s choice of course.

  3. I have no Idea just who is replying to who here. Can anyone explain how this all works ? On all the other sites there is a clear and simple system yet this place seems to be totally confusing.
    Any pointers ?

    • The site used to indicate who was replying to whom and also allow editing after posting. I have no idea why George has taken this retrograde step but it’s bloody annoying! It’s the main reason I don’t often post now.😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

      • Ian, I have prefaced my comment with the persons name for many months now. I am surprised that few others do it.

      • And the spam filter seems to have failed.

        Can I interest you in a way of earning $5k a week performing criminal acts from the comfort of your own home?

      • Ian , oversharing of emojis..we are British after all.. one emoji only if your sad or upset, you can have 2 for a joke and 3 if your being ironic 🤪😜🤯

      • Each time George updates the site it crashes frequently in the surrounding days.
        Unfortunately the most recent attempt to return the comments to their former functionality entirely broke the site until, I assume, a fix was brought in that also removed the spam protector, such that we are now stuck with the worst of all worlds.
        It is a great pity, at the point I joined this site was the equal of many dedicated forums.
        Now you might as well get insight into Defence from the Telegraph comments section, barring the few veterans still posting long replies. Those I have the utmost respect for as the site is very difficult to use effectively now.

    • Yes you can sort of tell because

      1) your answer will be under the main comment
      2) your answer will be indented
      3) any answers to you will be indented again
      4) I don’t think it indents beyond 2 levels so it gets confusing
      5) I think you can only have 5 comments
      6) you can add a manual note using @personsname
      7) or you could just put their name without an @
      8) I suppose you could use a #persons name as well
      9) agree it’s confusing
      10) I got to 10 are you bored yet 😂🤣😂😉

      • The most important thing is receiving a notification when someone has replied to you.

        That needs to be reinstated somehow. I see the spam bots posting quite often now including in this post.

        I never saw the spam bots with the old system.

  4. Secretary John Healey didn’t answer the question, IMO question is justified, the effort to support Ukraine has no relation to European defense challenges, the problem with France is their attitude of thinking only of their own defense industry and their interests, take my word, their joint project with Germany on the future tank will never see the light of day (apologize for my Brexit style)

  5. It’s quite clear that France is being as belligerent to us as the US is to some of its allies (and with less justification). “France first” would an appropriate motto for Macron here.

    I’ve seen some euro apologists bend over backwards and perform some logical gymnastics to try to justify this, but it’s just not justifiable.

    Starmer needs to show a bit more backbone here.

      • I think the EU needs to remember that as the world is now shifting and NATO is on the ropes and no longer fit for purpose it really needs the Uk to get on its side with a new defensive alliance..because we could just walk away or completely align with the US, this is where the EU really does miss understanding the UK quite catastrophically some time times the reason we left the EU was to maintain our sovereign ability to choose and for the UK it’s not a cut and dry EU first and always choose.

        So the EU needs to consider does it want to really want see the UK walk away with 50% of Europes strategic nuclear deterrence, 66% of its worth meaningful carrier capability and 60% of its SSN force. That’s 70 billion euros worth of completely irreplaceable geostrategic level capabilities.

        During Brexit the EU could hide behind NATO commitments knowing those assets were safe..NATO is now for all intent and purpose dead, the EU needs to step up as a potential super power and the UK as an none aligned world power needs to carefully consider which superpower if any it wishes to align with and it not choosing the EU would have very very serious security implications for the EU.

        • France is very much the junior partner in the EU2, Defence is the one area it gets to play at being leader in, more so since the UK left, so Macron will make the most of it publicly.

          However, if Germany says it needs the UK’s involvement in eNATO and EU wide defense arrangements (and it looks like it does, along with most of eNATO and rest of the EU), they’ll come to the table with reasonable arrangements, or the UK simply screams “NATO first and walks out”. France will fall in-line after kicking up some sand and we all know it.

          Only concern is if a weak UK delegation roll’s over to have its belly rubbed, but Starmer seems to be doing well in Defence and related Trump/NATO issues so far and won’t want to lose that.

        • Your figures are false. You have 2 aircraft carriers, Europe has 8. Only one other country has SSNs, France, which has 6, you have 7, so you’re closer to 60%. As for deterrence, France has the most, and it also has 2 deterrence components, not you!
          The British have quite a few recruitment problems, problems with their land forces, which are in very poor condition… As for expeditionary capabilities, it’s even more false.

  6. The problem with the EU is it is painfully slow to negotiate things. Think Covid vaccines as an example.
    It really needs to get it’s finger out a agree a miliary cooperation deal with the UK. This is essential for any peace keeping or monitoring force that is sent to Ukraine.
    The logistics are essential – something that needs investment by all countries. An essential part of that is to maximise the output of all European arms manufacturers, including the UK.

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