In August 2022, the aircraft carrier experienced a malfunction near the Isle of Wight while departing Portsmouth for trials in the US, as first reported by the UK Defence Journal.
The carrier has been under repair since that time.
The Sunday Times has reported that the cost for repairing the United Kingdom’s largest warship has increased to £20 million, and the repair duration is expected to be longer than initially anticipated.
Weighing 65,000 tonnes, the vessel was returned to Portsmouth for a more in-depth analysis by engineers from Babcock. Subsequently, it was decided that the ship would be sent to Rosyth, its original construction site, for the necessary repairs in a dry dock.
A Royal Navy spokesperson said:
“We expect HMS Prince of Wales to commence her operational programme, as planned, in Autumn 2023. This will include flying training and trials. An investigation is underway to establish the cause of the starboard shaft failure and once complete ministers will provide an update on the outcome.”
It still hasn’t been fixed? Is the £20 million including the scheduled maintenance that was brought forward? If it is a manufacturing fault, the manufacturer can pay for it.
I guess when you factor in overhead costs such as labour, dry dock, tugs etc. It does mount up. But on the other hand, shouldn’t the awarded contract to Babcock have covered that stuff? I’m just surprised it’s taken over 4 months to get a quote on the progress.
They did mention when this happened, I think, that the scheduled maintenance that was meant to be this year was brought forward. The quote is still nebulous and doesn’t offer much.
There seems to be some Reports that RN were aware of a issue, but chose to ignore it and put to sea anyway. Much Like QE which had a engine mount issue. it was reported that due to fact the shaft was run to failure, the level of damage was far more extensive. but RN has closed ranks concerning the exact damage caused. so very much if you drive your car with a fault and damage it further its the Idiots fault
I wouldn’t have thought so. They will almost certainly separate out scheduled maintenance from repairs. Personally I thought £20M was quite low. Building Newly designed carriers is quite a risk so to prevent suppliers building that into the price HMG might have shared any risks. Doubt we will ever find out who paid what and really does it matter?
Ok. I was going off a statement that was made last October. Here is an update statement from January. “An undisclosed RN spokesperson told BBC: “Repairs to HMS Prince of Wales’ starboard shaft are expected to be completed by spring 2023. The ship will then return to Portsmouth for a pre-planned maintenance period.” – Naval News
Floating her out of the dock is tide dependent. High high tides and low low tides to float over the end of the dry dock and then to fit under bridges.
These won’t occur until later in the year so the plan is to carry out the scheduled maintenance and upgrades in situ by shipping the relevant equipment to the dry dock
The last I read about the problem came from this article last month which I posted on here at the time. Due to return to active duty in the Autumn.
LINK
Navy Lookout, in an early article, speculated that the 5 yr. Lloyd’s Naval Ship Rules hull inspection might have been brought forward and bundled w/ the repair in order to maximize ship availability post repair. No data presented on cost apportionment. 🤔
It is probably Mr Hunt’s budgeteers fault! 😡 😱😫
I’m lead to believe the uk is not at war, so why are warships going out on operation not fit for purpose ?
It’s best they do a proper inspection and make sure the problem is completely fixed. Last thing they want is a quick repair only for it to happen again next deployment.
Perhaps they are doing the other work that was scheduled for the next maintenance also.
Really the navy can manage with one carrier for just now. A lot of the type 45s are getting fixed up.
With the drones planned to be on board she might have some extra work done for them. Storage, assembly etc.
I also thought that the future maintenance schedule was brought forward. As far as I am aware, the POW didn’t have its CWIS installed, so this could be part of it.
Prince of Wales had her phalanx 1bs installed way back when. You might be thinking of the 30mm cannon which to my knowledge didn’t get fitted to either ship.
Ahh, yes. You ask for the latest images of POW in a search engine and it just gives you whatever. I have just seen it when it was in Gibraltar with the CWIS on it. Cheers. Do you know if the Martlet is going to be attached to the 30mm? I know they have done it on Type 23 but wasn’t sure if it was going to be carried over anywhere else.
I’m a civilian but was lucky enough to be given a guided tour of PoW a couple of years ago and actually ended up standing right next to the starboard mount. They’re a bit more difficult to pick out as all pow phalanx are painted grey rather than the white you usually see. I think QEs are a mix of white and grey.
On martlet, I’m not sure if that’s moving ahead, last tests seem to have been 2019 and I don’t know if any have been fitted to any active ships.
Cheers. It would be nice for the carriers to have the Martlets installed on the 30mm. Although, having a rolling airframe installed would be better.
I’d go one further and fit the mk4 bofors that type 31 is getting. Longer reach than the 30mm, similar reach to martlet and you’re lobbing a half dozen down range. Unmanned mount, 120 rounds stored locally, they look to be pretty useful.
The RN is one step ahead, hopefully. It looks like they are looking to buy loitering munitions. Link to Uk defence journal article. Apologies if you already know about it.
The RN is looking at loitering munitions. I tried to post it but got removed, even though it was linked to an article on this site. The article is “Royal Navy seeking ‘loitering munitions’ for ships”. I do apologise if you get another message.
I agree I think the mk4 Bofors should be the standard CIWs for all our escorts and major surface units…a very effective weapon system that provides very good close in AAW as well as effective ASuW for small boat swarms. Not sure if it could also replace the 30mm DS30 mounts but if it could that would be idea removing two weapons systems ( DS30m and phalanx) for one system would probably save money in the longer term even if the was a large capital outlay…and a type 45 or 26 with 4 Mk4 Bofors would be a nastier and… Read more »
The Port Phalanx is kind of in the way of the 30mm mount there taking some of its arc of fire away. They may need to move it a touch or put another mount more forward on top of or to the side of the flight deck. 3-4 40mm with CAMM-ER and or Dragonfire would be pretty useful too even within a CSG.
I hate to bring up anything related to the A word but the French Navy is standardising around the Thales Rapidfire with the CTAS40 cannon as CIWS on all platforms. Could presumably drop in anywhere that currently houses or is planned to house DS30, Phalanx or Bofors Mk 4 although probably not worth touching the T23s at this point. Obviously, the Bofors is a capable and proven system, but part of me wonders whether that would be a better solution for the RN given the advantages in the number of rounds that can be carried per turret and the standardisation… Read more »
In theory yes, but my understanding is that the key element of the CTA 40 has yet to be funded. The air burst ammo I think remains just a plan. The development to my knowledge has not been funded by either the French or Brits. Without an air burst munition the gun does not have the operational advantage of the Bofors 3P ammo. Even if it was funded, it would be triggered by a time fuze, like the 35mm Millennium gun, which in my book isn’t as good as a prox fuze. I’m open to being corrected on this.
Good point I had not noticed that are are starting to move ahead with the A3B round, which is what really limited the CTAS, It would be a good future option.
The MK4 Bofors mount should prove very useful going forward but it is not a dedicated CIWS system,it uses information sourced from extenal Radar sensors and EO mounts for it’s firing solutions,completely different from Phalanx and previously Goalkeeper.As Daniel says below the Thales RapidFire System is much more capable as a CIWS option.
2x 40 Bofors with 3P ammo and 2x Sea Ceptor please (for my fantasy CIWS :). But seriously lives being put at ris adn 5BN=10BN GBP platfortm for say a few 10’s of million of cost of implementing proper CIWS. Can’t seem to find a way to attach an image with potential arcs and distances anymore
I don’t see why a Bofors mount can’t have a radar director controlling it.
The Martlet/30mm combo never progressed further than trials on HMS Sutherland,it’s reasonable to assume that issues were found ( efflux from Rocket Motors for one ) that prevented the idea being taken forward.
If the QE and PoW have to rely on any type CIWS their toast. By the way I spent 15 years as a CIWS maintainer in the RN
Another expensive warship spending more time under repair than avaliable for ops. Serious questions need to be asked about some very dubious construction and designcchoices in both the 45’s and it seems, at least one carrier.
Ridiculous comment. Teething troubles are expected of any major ship, let alone what are essentially prototypes like the QE and PoW. Compared to the teething issues of the new Ford class carriers, ours aren’t doing too badly.
As for the T45, we know what the issue was years ago, an intercooler that didn’t function as advertised. There is a question around design choice for the propulsion system, with respect to the government of the time. Interim workarounds were developed long-ago and full fixes are currently being implemented.
Stop panicking Corporal Jones.
If we knew there was an issue with T45 years ago why was this not adressed? The operational environment was known from The operstional environment was forseen, so why create ships that cannot operate fully in certain climates as global escorts? The Prince of Wales saga is just another example of lack of oversight. Yeah, sure, things rarely work as advertised but when we are throwing billions of public money into continual procurement disasters proper questions need to be asked. You can have all the money and fancy requiremdnts you like, but if all one builds are Boulton Paul Defiants… Read more »
You clearly have no idea of the history of the T45 power problems. The ships were designed to operate in all climatic conditions, however the intercoolers would obviously not perform as well in hot tropical conditions as in cooler climates (hint, they’re called intercoolers). However their performance was specified as to “degrade gracefully”, as in the performance would decline slowly as the ambient temperatures increased. However it practice the intercoolers were found to have a design flaw that could see them degrade catastrophically in some tropical conditions under certain workloads, resulting in an unacceptable power-loss. Instead of doing a knee-jerk… Read more »
PMSL but Spot on. people quick to moan if there not fit, and yet still moan if the fix is rushed and done twice
Ok T45s failures increased with age, and the program of repairs were to correspond with major works. so building that Budget into the Navy’s accounts takes time, POWs blew a Universal joint like 1000s of cars do every day. and rather than rush in and cut open the T45s they wanted the fix test run to prove it worked 1st. 2 Carriers was always to have one online and one in reserve. ?????? so who is the right one
I disagree on your comment that both the QE & PoW are essentially prototypes. Yes the QE effectively is this but then subsequent builds woudnt be as the lessons learned from the first of class are swept up and incorporated in later builds which usually means their build time is reduced. I would expect more problems with QE than PoW. The PoW issue smacks of poor quality assurance by the shipbuilders and was known about when she left the builder’s yard so why hadnt anything been done about it then rather than wait for a catastrophic failure. The MOD QAR… Read more »
You can’t call the second build of anything other than a prototype. They aren’t identical ships; for example PoW is longer and wider than QE. This is because lessons were learned in building QE that were applied to PoW resulting in her build being faster and cheaper. Only on a production line are you going to see identical products with faults eliminated, and even on highly automated ones there will be products that will fail. The causal issue was know about but it was still within the design tolerances specified. As a result PoW was cleared and subsequently successfully completed… Read more »
Actuality QE/POWs are the same external dimensions, BUT POWs is heavier. if you take the RN dims on POWs its to wide to get out the basin
As someone has already stated they are the same dimensions so you are incorrect on that point and Im going to use a word I dont really like using but Im assuming you have no experience in shipbuilding for the defence industry chiefly the RN. One of my jobs after leaving the Royal Navy was as a Weapon/Electrical Naval Overseer and I can assure you that the first of build is, and I use this in inverted commas ” a prototype” though technically it is not and shipbuilders learn from first build of class to improve on build of subsequent… Read more »
And they were wrong.
PoW is approximately a meter longer and wider.
2 in Class, look at the Ford Class that still cannot cycle its air wing. Both Designed to the same plans. so if there is a design flaw and there was in QE it followed over into POws. Remember QE had vibration on a shaft that cracked its mounts. QE flooded, twice like POWs. QE was stopped before it ripped its shaft out. Pows wasn’t
It at all, things break, they get fixed, 20 years old or 20 hours, shit can break, it’s how you go about fixing it and covering the gaps! The RN are top of their game when it comes to getting their shit in a sock!
Indeed. But how about not hsving shit to puf in there in the first place? Procurement disasters ard nog new but why should the RN or othef services keep having to deal with them?
“puf”, “ard nog”, “othef” ?!?!?!?
Are you drunk?
Understand the Procurement phase, Procurement doesn’t create the issue, people interfering do once the contract is won, Ajax Won its compertion Army top brass then stuck 20 tons on it and broke it
What nonsense!🙄
Why? Asking why billions of public money is being wasted on non functional technology? I think it behoves us to put the question.
It sounds like a bit of a one-off as QE has not suffered this type of problem to date. A bit more reassuring were the comments made in this link, as we need every penny we get for defence spent wisely. March 2023 “The defence committee are so frustrated now with all of these endless procurement problems and cost overruns and delays. “We’ve established a special subcommittee to conduct an inquiry into what’s wrong with our procurement, specifically to look at (DE&S),” Mark Francois said. “But I think it’s probably not giving away, you know, the Trident codes here to say… Read more »
Exactly. This is the point. One expects some ‘wobble’with new technology. But this lesson is semkngly unlearnt. Instead we get Hubris and obsfucation.
Step up and and do procurement, then we can all BLAME YOU and see how you like it.
POW teething issues same as QE, but you don’t pick these parts up at Halfords. i would look at Ferguson Marine to prove how not to build a ship. Early Flooding caused by a joint located where a joint just shouldn’t have been at a block join. 45s poor choice to support Uk Jobs but a design that is regarded as the best Air defence ship in the Worlds Navies. Explain the Ford Class,
£20 million… Marine Prop Shafts are made from high grade steel, with a stainless element, as well as hardening properties. Couplings are/were made from high grade Brass/Bronze as well as composite materials. Ship Propellors are/were made from Brass/Bronze/Aluminium/Nickel combinations, which are tailored to suit specific needs or requirements. The process of purchasing these materials, machining, casting and finishing the ‘products’ to the end users specifications does NOT take months. Then when finished, these ‘products’ do not cost £20 million quid! So, once again, the British Taxpayer is conned, lied to and stolen from by defence contractors. Whatever happened to the… Read more »
I think you will find that £20 million includes labour , taxes and the parts and for your information a propellor the sized used on the PoW coats £1.1 million and the shaft another £1.6 million.
If you think you can do it cheaper, I have a bridge I can sell you .
Have you? Where is it? Is it the one across the Atlantic? How much?🤑
And 4 months of dry docking costs with yard overheads.
Probably plus fixing things that got dinged in the initial failure and maybe realigning the drive motors?
I’d regard £20m as quite good value actually.
It is pocket change compared to getting a very important warship back to work.
You have the cost of labour, cost of using the dockyard , taxes , all these things add up .
You obviously just think things like labour equipment and premises are free and it is just a case of buying the parts and everything else is free.
£20 million is actually a good price , the QM when she had a propellor and shaft replaced cost Cunard £33 million.
Given the potential adverse publicity, I would have thought that the MoD would have published the lowest cost it thought it could get away with. So the £20M is probably not far off and might be under.
Why post on here in this story, as you have stated many times these stories are of no interest and you only like to push your shite out on Russian led stories! Or, as we all can see it’s an effort at pretending to be impartial and able to comment on humdrum UK mil stories! Anyway, while you’re here, any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet? Tell you what, you don’t have to condemn it, just type “Putin is a bell-end nonce” and your credentials may have risen slightly……….
There’s no adverse publicity about a RN ship being repaired. It’s not as if it sank or caught fire in the dry dock. Or, not as adverse as the 200 000 plus military casualties from a failed invasion of a sovereign nation, or the thousands of warcrimes committed during the course of that invasion by Russia. Now that’s adverse publicity.
So supposedly, £1.6 million + £1.1 million = £2.7 million. Taxes, labour, crane hire, scaffolding, hiring a vending machine etc and soforth would then cost £17.3 million???
The ‘bridge’ you own… did you buy it from the same people who taught you maths?
Just don’t ever go into business , I can’t believe how dumb people are when it comes to how much things cost and what costs make up the price you pay .
You are one dumb person.
£20 million is a good price.
You truly have no idea about Marine manufacturing you muppet. £20 million is daylight robbery.
“Dumb person” to be fair I’m not surprised that you spell it correctly. Stoopid is as stoopid does.
do you know how much? the small vessel i worked on in a dock down cost 100k for 2 weeks on the dry docking alone. Of the 250k spent we had 100k was spent on works done (new equipment repairs painting new anodes etc.) the rest on scaffolding use of cranage, washing the hull (preps painting). inspections , testing etc etc etc. Im just giving a basic reply im sure i may have the PDF of our dock down somewhere with all the pictures before after etc. Gunbuster has knows more on the RN dry docking than me and he… Read more »
We dock down up to 400k ton VLCC ships and smaller container ships every 10 days for Graving dock work.
I have put smaller military ships into the dock for extensive planned maint repairs. If you include the cost of spares its a fair price. For most USN ships the spares are Govt Furnished so we dont see the cost of them and they dont get included in our totals. Spares are a hefty chunk of cash.
Oh no call a doctor. Tom has split personality disorder and is arguing with himself🙈
Truth Hurt Buttercup, Dont Breed as they will become a number on a council clip board needing special needs
How old are you, as you lack of any sense is shocking, £20m is a average Championship Footballer. Go look up the Price for a Drive shaft for a Ferrari and then upscale it
You are broadly correct: I believe there is something fishy going on here. I would want to know why the damage is so extensive, and why the sister ship is OK. Who signed the ship off and did they know that the ship was a dog – and if they did not know, why did they not know.
In disciplines such as medical or defence there is always a document trail; which is designed to identify and isolate faults as they come up.
I suspect that there has been dirty work at the crossroads.
The ship underwent extensive sea trials, so no issues signing it off. Faults ocurred later.
They knew the problem was there but ignored it. The captain choose to run her to hard and we now are where we are
This was avoidable, the workmanship was not up to scratch, the leadership was to weak to do anything
Thanks David. If the manufacturer imposed a use limitation and the Captain ignored it, that is bad.
Nope, the Telegraph & Portsmouth news was carrying an article that the problems with the shaft were known while it was being built.
Secondly, the Carrier Consortium has been disbanded, that means the taxpayer will foot the bill.
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/hms-prince-of-wales-scotland-shipbuilders-knew-about-royal-navy-carrier-propeller-shaft-misalignment-faults-4033592
Thanks. That’s bad news.
Carrier Consortium, disbanded in name but MOD still has a retention on the Carriers and Monies held based on targets
Hi Graham… from what is now coming out in the open, I would suggest that the prop-shaft, and coupling issues, would have failed during those sea trials.
Thanks Tom. Then PoW should not have passed her sea trials, in my book.
Tug boats, shipyard fees, wages, surveys, parts, other upgrades are just a little bit of what costs are involved.
Months in a major dry dock is not cheap.
The ship is not “a dog” 🤦🏻♂️
seems from some of the information provided in this thread…it was …or at least the shaft was a dog hind leg- and they knew it ?
Beggars belief.
Well they knew things weren’t ideal but things were still within tolerances and caused no issues during trials. It sounds like when tolerances were defined they were too generous with regard to the cumulative effect.
Things take time to Bed In. maybe they gambled on them settling
@Terence Patrick Hewett:-
You present no evidence whatsoever for your entirely speculative allegations – which disgracefully, attempts to apportion blame to someone who bears no responsibility for POWs problems. Your ‘suspicions’ about ‘dirty work’ are highly irresponsible, POW is not ‘a dog’ but a highly compex aircraft carrier with teething problems.
Go back and Check During Sea Trails QE suffered a Propeller issue where a blade slipped on a mount, the Vibration through that shaft cracked mounting plates on the propellor shafts. only discovered by chance by a engineer placing his Mug of tea on the mount.
The MoD has a Cost Analysis and Assurance function that examines cost which cannot be substantiated so they ignore that function and pay up.
Calm down Tom, you’ll give yourself a heart attack. The fact is £20m for the entire op sounds pretty cheap!
I take it you have never worked an RN refit or done ship repair work in the civvy sector.
20 mil is about right for whats been done.
Dry dock cost can be 10k a day
New shaft, prop, hub, couplings bearings pushing 10 mil to manufacture.
Manhours- 100GBP per hour at least.
Gensets and Fuel for hotel services onboard.
Security
Any other stuff–and there always is other stuff…
20mil seems about right
I’ve read that the other shaft is also out of alignment. So that’s going to be fixed at the same time. If memory serves didn’t QE have a similar drive line problem, when it cracked a thrust block? Better that she broke down when leaving the harbour, than mid way across the Atlantic.
There were discussions on Navylookout about POW ‘s Shaft issues, someone had pointed out that the Aft Lower Hull sections were built in different yards – BAE built HMS QE’s in Portsmouth while POW’s was constructed by Babcock’s at Rosyth, this might be a completely irrelevant point but could explain why the same problem hasn’t affected both Ships.
Spot on Guns.
I think some folks think the sailors pop down a few decks with a wrench and a big hammer, whack whack job done, so only parts count as costs. Also berthed in a government owned dockyard so no fees🙄
They are not changing a windscreen wiper. The cutting out alone to get the new shaft in/out will take weeks. The material manufacture for the replacement shaft will take months. Cutting/Welding = fire safety cordons & inspections galore – this stops other work in that area. Weld inspections & NDE of said welds by third party inspectors. Inspection intervals by accredited bodies… etc etc… The list really does go on. If it didn’t then you end up with a repeat of what happened to the Russian Carrier. For instance, a handful of small First Level bolting for Submarines and Surface… Read more »
Really, so you just pop down your Local B&Q and take them off the shelf, what happened to Common Sense. as a comparison £20m would fund the NHS for about 4 days
TBH I expected it to be far more. Still not good obviously, but no great shakes. With maintenance carried out at the same time, she won’t be out of action that long in the scheme of things.
They knew it had problems before it was launched but they hoped it could cope within the tolerances, which it couldn’t so taxpayers end up with a bill for another builders mistake the same as the upgrades need for the type 45.
Please explain what ‘problems’ and do you actually know this to be true?
They knew the props weren’t ture but they were within the tolerances this was highlighted before it was launched but they took the chance.
Yes, the local paper, Mail and Telegraph carried that news. If true its another piece of pathetic management by the MOD/Procurement/Navy/Ship builders.
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/hms-prince-of-wales-scotland-shipbuilders-knew-about-royal-navy-carrier-propeller-shaft-misalignment-faults-4033592
I’m glad you can spell True not like my ture, relying to much on spell check or fingers and thumbs too big for the keyboard 😅🤣
Ex-M
I’d gracefully point out that George has had to spend many days of his life disproving the Portsmouth Live “truths”
They’ve become a laughing stock really with some of the stories they’ve posted relating to the Navy, Jesus last year they repeated a claim on twitter and in print that all the T45s were laid up in Pompy only to have a tweet from Defender sunning in the med
Ok so just to be clear, Props were fitted IN THE BASIN, so after the Launch. so the Engines could be run to speed in the Basin. so your statement is in fact wrong
What part is wrong they knew the props were out of line. I should have said before it was commissioned and hand over to the Royal Navy (Happy Now) doesn’t change the fact they knew.
Again they were not out of align at launch, if you remember QE hit a obstacle and dislodged hers and only found by accident. Grammar and Spelling is shocking. But guess your a expert pratt. and leave it at that.
F.O.
Whats Up Buttercup. Truth Hurts. Short Bus for the Tard
You seem to have a opinion about everything but you are still wrong, about them not knowing check the link on a comment further up in relation to the newspaper story.
Maybe if the Navy rejected the carriers when they were delivered with the prop shaft faults then this wouldn’t being costing us tax payers another 20m (or should that be £40m for when Queen Elizabeth has to have the same repair)
I may be going slightly bonkers😗but if they’re about to carry out an investigation to find the problem will someone tell me what they have been doing so far .
fabricating the costs ?
You may well be right. We wouldn’t want any embarrassment.
For me, the money spent to rectify the faults is not the issue, it’s the time spent identifying, rectifying the faults then getting the ship back to sea is the (worrying) issue in all this…
Just goes to show in these circumstances we should have built three, to have two available just in case.
Yes: it’s the rule of three.
I just hope they repair this PoW prop shaft better than the previous one. Poor bomb damage repairs to her prop shaft repairs were a significant factor in her loss in December 1941.
Little off topic but details of the now cancelled national flag ship have emerged.
https://www.boatinternational.com/yachts/yacht-design/national-flagship-yacht-design-competition
Some stunning designs here Expat and lots of what if..
Yep. It interesting it was only a RN ship to ensure UK build and circumvent WTO rules.
Some designs up to 15000 tons, housing a Merlin helicopter and able to host exhibits from the likes of BAe.
I noted that even though project didn’t go ahead there were already some benefits from having to do the detailed designs. Being able to apply what they learnt to new projects.
Shame really – still think of all the costs saved that can go into the military for recce tanks ; fucked up propellers – that sort of thing
I don’t think propellers are all that useful on a recce tank.
More likely savings going to raise pension saving tax rate, fixing pot holes and a big super computer.
Would ‘National flagship’ be the same as Royal Yatch Britannia, which I believe was meant to be an hospital ship, the only problem being everytime it was needed for that purpose it was being used elsewhere for “Royal jollies.”?
The article makes it clear the national flag ship was not a royal yacht and that term aas only used by opponents of the program, unfortunately the misrepresentation stuck.
Do we know how much of the £20m is down to the taxpayer? Even if the navy accepted the ship, doesn’t some liability for poor construction tolerances still lie with the consortium?
Did they get a warranty with the ship?
Why do the hms and mod not tighten up their contract peramiters to stop supplier from adding or charging such vast amounts of money when th or work fails probably more due to the suppliers unfit work. Their should be a proving period to be met by the suppliers like a warranty making sure their work is fit for purpose and not a rip off of government money for incompetent work . Probably saving government and bus hundreds of thousands if not millions in further payments for defective or sub standard work
So, the MOD has still not started to repair one of our most important military assets. While they merrily squander money helping former soviet countries to wage war. Political virtue signalling is obviously more important to them than defending the realm. There’s something very wrong with this sad state of affairs. I just can’t quite put my finger on it. Hmm let me think. Look on the bright side, at least the two carriers need not argue who will have the F35B, on the days it is not being used by the RAF. That must be a bonus. A query… Read more »
We’re not “squandering money… to wage war”. We aiding a fellow democracy that has been attacked by the country that is our primary adversary in this continent. In fighting Russia’s invasion forces, they’re not just defending their homeland but defending also defending our realm and our NATO allies.
We’re fortunate, we’re only spending money to combat Russia.
Ukraine is having the blood of its soldiers and citizens being shed combating Russia.
Still repeating the tired old falsehood that the carriers don’t have any F35s too I see. Tell me comrade, how’s the weather in Moscow today?
Comrade, Moscow! Have you been at the CO’s sherry cellar. I’m a former British soldier SNCO, veteran of the Cold War and 1991 Gulf War etc. Comrade my sphincter, that’s fighting talk. Devils advocate time again. (Big hint!) Aiding a democracy that overthrew it’s elected government and remains (along with Russia) the most corrupt country in Europe. It’s more correctly classified an oligarchy pseudo democracy. Just another poorly recovering former soviet-canker homeland nation. Riddled with institutionalised prejudice, bribery and corruption. Paying lip service to reforms and westernisation. Our duty as NATO members is the defence of every square foot of… Read more »
Good Morning George. There is one enormous fact that completely overrides your argument. Putin invaded Ukraine, a country that showed zero threat to Russia. In addition,the brutality of the invasion with its complete disregard for civilian casualties, has demonstrably united the people of Ukraine in a patriotic fervour not seen in conflict, for many decades. All of this is self evident. Putin and his henchmen are a disgraceful bunch of evil thugs
Regards
Cheers Geoff. That’s only true if you exclusively listen to the Ukrainian propaganda machine. Not everyone supported the 2014 coup by euro friendly and right wing factions, to overthrow the government. The replacement Ukrainian government called those disenchanted people separatists but who were they? Answer, ethnic Romani, Rusyns, russians and russian speakers who had previously voted unanimously to become part of the new Ukraine. So why did they decide to change their minds and seek independence? Unpack that answer my friend and things become easier to understand. The population was polarised by external pressure. Far from being united, Ukraine has… Read more »
As you say the problem is that there is a population in Eastern Ukraine who feel themselves to belong culturally to the Russian people i.e. they speak Russian as their native tongue, they attend the Russian Orthodox church, they teach their children Russian songs and fables, they have family in Russia. By contrast the west of Ukraine is culturally Catholic and leans towards Poland. In the middle is Kyiv, a city which was evangelised before Moscow and until the 17c when it was conquered by Moscow was the seat of an independent Patriarch of the Orthodox church; a situation which… Read more »
Hi Paul really interesting take on the religious schism angle…I had not considered the potential influence of kirill,(who is actually quite influential) and your right from his background he would happily move a schism into violence. Like all of these areas of confluence of ethnic and religious groups left over after the fall of a multiethnic empire getting down to the drivers of conflict can be more complex than it first appear….although that does not lessen the fact it generally takes a power mad authoritarian with a nasty case narcissism and no empathy to kick the bloodbath off.
Afternoon Jonathan; well as the saying goes, all roads lead to Constantinople. I agree with your point about Putin’s narcissism. If I recall correctly the invasion of Crimea took place at about the time Putin divorced his wife which triggered a series of high profile macho bareback horse riding appearances. We are dealing with a badly bruised ego who is being manipulated by Kirill. Many priests of the Russian Orthodox outside Russia have left the umbrella of the Moscow patriarch for the newly independent Kyiv patriarch. They can see that Kirill is the anti-Christ. Interestingly, as a sign of national… Read more »
Yes I remember that. It’s very worrying that there is an underlying religious angle as well….mixing or ethnic groups and religious schism at the fault line of two powers ( I think we are actually seeing the codification of an anti liberal democracy/western power group…led by and including china and russia, with china as the hegemonic power) is likely to mean any peaceful resolution is not coming before the exhaustion of will of one of the power groups. Its very tragic for Ukraine and probably in time for many other nations as well. It also probably means when you get… Read more »
Its important to understand the influence of the Orthodox Church in Russian culture. Russian people practise their Christianity. Despite a century of communism ( on one weekend in the 1930s Stalin ordered the burning down of 500 churches in Moscow) Orthodox Christians outnumber atheists by 5:1 and Muslims by 10:1. Russians love their country and their faith – which I respect by the way. Putin and Kirill are an unholy alliance. Unlike Stalin, Putin relies on the church to support him. For him it embodies what Greater Russia once was, part of the identity of a fading empire. True religion… Read more »
Thanks for the reply Paul. The religious aspect is very important. You can add the muslim population mostly living in Crimea to that list too. Not forgetting the Chechen mujahideen militias fighting for both sides. They have been implicated in sexual war crimes by both sides too. More important than religious friction, there is the underlying battle between the two groups of oligarchs from Russia and Ukraine. They are the true puppeteers behind Zelensky and Putin. Follow the money! Luhansk and Donetsk being heavily industrialised, were prizes worth fighting over it seems. As were the substantial grain harvests. Natural gas… Read more »
I agree that ‘follow the money’ is often the way to understand motivation for conflicts. Also agree that puppeteers are always active. What seems to have happened is that, under the influence of the above and the failure of Ukrainian authorities to implement some sort of acceptable devolved government solution the 2015 Minsk agreement Russian separatists took to violence and were supported by Putin. It happens all over the world. The IRA will never accept that devolved assembly is the answer for NI. This last week a minister in the Israeli government said that there is no such thing as… Read more »
The question of NATO and the Russian view of the near abroad was always going to be a sticky wicket…and one that Putin has harness to great effect. It’s been very easy for him to sell a story of the west attacking Russia, even though it’s total bollox the reality does not matter in these cases only perception and point of view…like all evil bastards before him he has been very clever at harnessing this for his own gain…trouble is if you keep telling a story ( of the threat of the west) and your an authoritarian at some point… Read more »
I sincerely hope you are wrong but I fear for the near future too.
Thanks for your reply George. I enjoy exchanging views and opinions on the UKDJ even when we see things differently. Let’s hope the PoW is able to return to service asap.
Cheers froma muggy Durban-only 30 degrees but humid which makes it feel much worse!
ps Yugoslavia-the power of one man to preserve in President Tito!
I enjoy it too and wish people would be more civil. There is much more to the Ukraine/Russia conflict than meets the eye. It’s not simply a bully state attacking it’s peace loving kitten like neighbour. As is being portrayed in the lamestream media. Real life is complex and quite often the very important matters at the root of the problem are concealed. A modicum of critical thinking is required when sifting through the propaganda.
If I don’t like my government should I try and kill everyone who disagrees with me. These separatists stood in the elections. They got less votes than the monster Raving looney party. But hey why let an election result get in the way. Must be fake news🙈
So now you accept the results of corrupt elections. Cherry picking is obviously your forte.
Ukraines last honest election was probably December 1991.
And Putin swore blind he wasn’t going to invade Ukraine last year. Russian & CCP promises & treaties are no more reliable than those Hitler made.
Curious how Putin is indited for genocide but Xi is not yet for crimes against the Uighurs.
He has more money & influence than Putin….
Well as a former soldier of the Queen you really should know better! Would you have called the Baltic states and Poland former soviet countries if they weren’t inNATO and Pootin invaded them again? Where would you have liked him to be stopped the IGB all over again?
“Our duty as NATO members is the defence of every square foot of NATO territory.” You say that like it’s our only duty and that we have no other interests. It’s in Britain’s strategic interest to maintain the current world order and to take advantage of it. NATO is only part of that. “Putin was wrong to have invaded and tried to seize Kiev or whatever the current spelling is. But the fact remains, he was given the excuse to do so.” Putin didn’t need to be given excuses. He creates his own narratives involving Nazis and genocide and that… Read more »
Indeed as a permanent member of the UN security council & signitory to the treaty guaranteeing Ukraine independance & security(as was Russia & the USA), we have responsabilities to Ukraine well beyond our NATO treaty. I don’t think we’ve given enough support, but held back Ukraine at the cost of more Ukrainian(& Rusian to some extent) lives.
Russia is behaving like a wife beater who tries to kidnap a divorced wife & conitnue beating her.
Not that we are beyond reproach.
If you choose to look like a duck, waddle like a duck, and quack like a duck, don’t them complain when you get shot at during duck hunting season 🤷🏻♂️ We have plenty of Putin’s paid trolls on here, such as JohnInMK, without people playing devils advocate. Ukraine is no different to how Romania or Bulgaria or many of the other former Warsaw Pact nations were in the years after the fall of Communism. I visited Bulgaria in the early noughties when the EU was refusing entry due to the amount of organised crime. While I visited businessmen were still… Read more »
If you think Fox News is an extremist media outlet, clearly you do not cast your net very far. I recommend a broader selection of background reading. Many non english publications have translated sections. India in particular gives a very interesting alternative opinion. Mainland China and Hong Kong are worth checking too. Transparency International have Russia and Ukraine as the most corruptly perceived nations in Europe. See the corruption perceptions index for 2021 and 22. But the same can be said for any year you care to examine. The Balkan states used to be listed as quite bad but now… Read more »
So should Ukraine be left to be destroyed under Russian occupation because it doesn’t fit your ideal of a democracy? The corruption that you refer to in Ukraine is likely a hangover from its period as being part of the Soviet Union, the desire of the Ukrainian people to be free of Russian corruption and influence and to tilt towards Western European ideals of plurality and transparency were the foundation of the 2014 Maiden revolution.
The corruption is indeed a leftover from the soviet state, no argument. The USSR could not have functioned without it. Many would say the desire of the people in Ukraine to be free of corruption and all things soviet. Stretches back to the overwhelming majority who voted to separate from Russia and Moscow in December 1991. (The second referendum.) Those were heady days filled with hope and optimism, when anything seemed possible. I forget the percentage who voted for Ukrainian independence but it was very high. (I remember reading about it at the time and could hardly believe my eyes.)… Read more »
That you think the likes of Tucker Carlson isn’t extremist shows how far you’ve fallen down the rabbit hole and away from reality. I’ll stick to actual news sources that employ reporters and investigative journalists, rather than opinionated celebrities that invent stories. I suggest you lookup the dictionary definitions of “fact” and “fiction” as you have difficulty distinguishing. News sources in mainland China and Hong Kong are all state controlled now, in other words controlled by the propaganda unit of the CCP. In other words just like ‘news’ in Russia. The stories I have seen coming from both are laughably… Read more »
Ad Hominem insults with very little content of note. Clearly not worth a proper reply. Come back when you have something credible to add.
I accept your surrender.
Surrender, my arse!
No thanks, I have no need for your fat, hairy arse.
Your surrender and withdrawal from trying to defend your position was sufficient.
That you even suggest taking a Chinese news source seriously says it all really. All independent media in Hong Kong is dead because of the NSL.
And Indian media… is terribly and a lot of it rather nationalistic. They love to play devil’s advocate, do no wonder you like them.
It’s important to keep a trans on what other news sources are reporting/saying, but that does not mean you should believe them.
Who said anything about taking it seriously?
I try to get the full spectrum of views and opinions. The ChiComs have an important part to play in all of this. Therefore what they spoon feed their people is … … interesting. The fact that you don’t want to know, says it all!
Where did you get the idea that repairs haven’t started?
(I must admit the imagery of the MOD repairing the ship amused me. HMS Prince of Wales breaking through the Thames barrier to park outside the main building at Whitehall, followed by a bunch of desk jockeys running out with hammers and welding torches…)
I must admit the image of the MOD counting out tax payers pennies by the wheelbarrow, to pay the shipyards to do the repairs is equally amusing. In a morbid black way. The repair I assume, started with a damage assessment in Portsmouth, likely quoting an upper and lower estimate for repairs. If it turns out to be the result of a manufacturing error, I hope the builders cough up for the repair costs. Such a clause would be part of the original contract if it were a civilian ship.
It will take longer than expected. That’s the standard sodding statement from them without exception!
ouch- £20 million- must need an entirely new shaft and possibly propeller as well as gearing- expensive manufacturing error. Who is paying the £20 million? HMG or the constructor- I’ve got a feeling it is the tax payer.
Why on earth didn’t we go IEP with 4 short shafts. Not these ludicrously long easily bendable shafts. FFS.
A shaft line is never dead straight it aways has a bend in it . Its designed that way. It also has intermediate bearings along its length both inside and external to the hull to support it.
You cannot – the lines of the hull aft means you need brackets to support the propeller and keep it away from the boundary layer and pressure drop from hull disturbance. GAP d SAG are normal considerations for a shaftline and are factored in when doing the alignment to the output flange. And shaft is easily bent if you put enough torque through it. in this cse there is a SKF hydraulic coupling connect the tail and the inter – these are custom made to order s its an outboard connection. short shafts are simply not possible unless you have… Read more »
SKFs are a “Joy” (?) to install !
Lots of vernier measurements.
Hydraulic pressures to get right( in the 10s of thousand of PSI range)
Getting them off when they are cracked and dont hold the hydraulic pressure anymore is even more fun.
Naval engineering intricacies is not your strongpoint is it?
The QE class carriers have IEP 🤦🏻♂️
The photo here shows how narrow the ski ramp is. I wonder if in bad weather and rolling seas if this will affect Ops and if it should have been made wider or intergrayed with the deck?
A ramp can launch aircraft in higher sea states than a Cat can.
As usual you come up with the answers on RN questions👍Trouble is half of the people won’t read them and still spout bollocks🙄😄
Agreed, I believe this was seen in the Falklands when Harriers were able to still operate from Invincible and Hermes while Veinticinco de Mayo couldn’t launch her Skyhawks.
I dont think he was asking whether or not we shoud have a ski- jump merely querying whether it could/should have been integrated into the design/made wider to enhance its usage in more adverse conditions.
You have to admit that if they have not messed about with jet versoins decisions at the start they would have designed a more integrated ski-jump profile.
Or… it leaves a space alongside the ramp to install a catapult for launching drones.. which the RN happens to be investigating
I’m not sure it would be a good idea. If it was fully integrated like say on the Kuznetsov, then if in the future if there was a need to remove it for an EMALS. It would cost a lot of fettling time, to cut off the ramp and weld down new sheet. The present design means that it could be removed a lot easier, if required. The blunt face of the ramp is there for a reason. It sets up a high pressure air zone just below the ramp that is used to push air up and over the… Read more »
Didn’t work too well when that one fell of the end 😉
But seriously thanks for the reply I wasnt aware of some of the physics…still looks Heath Robinson though doesn’t it.
A wedge (ramp) is one of the earliest and simplest machines known to man.
Heath Robinsons Egyptian ancestor?
Because it doesn’t need to be? And the space next to it can be used for something else like a catapult for drones.
Time to fit outboards….. Supplied soley by Babcock…..
Think of it this way, at the moment we have 75,000 tons of scrap metal but for a bargain cost of just £20m we can double our fleet of aircraft carriers.
One thing no one has mentioned is the crew.
I believe the original plan was to keep the crew on board / assigned to the ship. Whilst in dock I assume they will be doing what training they can, routine maintenance, etc. but it is still going to be pretty boring.
No doubt they will get plenty of opportunity to take their leave time given the situation and wonder into Edinburgh when off duty but it is not what they signed up for. Bottom line, they must feel pretty fed up.
Cheers CR
You still do training. You still do courses. The engineers will be busy
A lot of POW crew have been doing assistance to civvy powers jobs at Airports etc checking passports.
Edinburgh is a bit far. Rosyth and Dumfs can supply the required entertainment…Not that I would know…(Refitted a T42 out of base port it took longer than planned back in the day!)
So pretty much as I thought – got feel for them. Hope they get to do some interesting come August…
Cheers CR
Hi folks hope all is well. Maybe some of you experts on this site can advise me as you always do. My question on this matter is why does it take so long to conduct the repairs, which at first appeard to be a propeller issue, now we are talking about other repairs to the shaft. Of course dealing with a high end sophisticated carrier is no simple task. I was wondering what would happen if we were in an emergency war footing? Could the issues be resolved asap? The impression so far appears the UK tax payers once again… Read more »
Hi George,
You have basically summed up the debate above with your questions.
I will refer you to Gunbuster’s posts above. A few others have made similar posts as well. Maintaining and fixing warships is what he does, both in the RN and as a contractor. They are easy to read to and very informative…
Cheers CR
It probably goes something like this having done similar shaft issues on other mil vessels although considerably smaller. Principals are the same. Take off the prop blades. Remove the hub Disconnect the shaft couplings and electrical items(Sensors) work in way for access. Disconnect the shaft from inside the ship. Possible tank vent and cleaning (prior to hot work) Welding strongpoints to the hull. NDT the welds before loading them Pull it all out ( Lots of slinging and rigging using the strong points) Check all the bearing surfaces on thrust intermediate and A bracket bearings. Check Stern seal Assess damage.… Read more »
Nice post Gunbuster..! 🙂
Reaming holes – takes me back to my apprenticeship days. Happy days!
Cheers CR
£20 million to repair, why not use the opportunity to fix the aircraft carrier as well? Remove the ski ramp and replace with cats and traps.
Then you will have an aircraft carrier.
Troll
Bad idea in our case, for several reasons.
Cost.
Sortie rate.
Launch and recovery.
Commonality with existing fleet, both ours and allies.
Training/certification issues ongoing.
It carries aircraft, it is an aircraft carrier already.
Oh dear!🙄🙄
This is why it’s good to have two carriers.
Good job we have two carriers! Obviously we need to fix POWs problem properly & the cost isn’t huge. Certainly no worse than the T45 engine issue being fixed. Things go wrong with new builds, though it’s a bit embarrassing after centuries of experience designing & building warships we keep blundering. If it’s down to corner-cutting or penny pinching it’s a foolish own goal.
Hopefully POW will be fighting fit & back on track by 2024.
I am wondering if the port shaft coupling was looked at as well?
“An investigation is underway to establish the cause of the starboard shaft failure and once complete ministers will provide an update on the outcome.”
In other news, the night is dark, ice is cold, the taxpayer will end up paying for yet another piece of incompetence!
These issues with PoW and the T45 show a long line of inadequately constructed ships for the RN… In particular I’m reminded about another currently commissioned RN vessel that was found to have serious issues even before launch. Unbelievably this jinxed ship was built too wide for the gates of the dry-dock she was built in. Then once on the water it was found to have a distinct list to starboard! More worryingly she sat in the water far lower than she was designed to which meant that she was unable to operate some weapons systems in rough seas. No… Read more »
My sea dad was on that one.
Missed out on loads of sea pay!
My first thought was “Again?” but Wikipedia tells me the last PoW sank because of the PORT shaft.
In any case that was an obsolete class of warship built at great expense in difficult economic times and sent to the Far East as a useless token gesture against a new rising power. So completely different. Obviously.
Just to put some Skin into the Game. MOD will spend £100m this year on upgrades to MOD Housing Stock its renting. and the same for the next 10 years. on Roofs/windows/doors/boilers/insulation
Funny how come everyone is blaming the Tory for the Carriers, and the waste of tax payers money when Designed and Ordered under a Labour excuse of a Gov. must be Boris Fault the POWs broke down.
This might be of interest, it seems the bill for a similar event with Ford in 2019 est around $30m;
“At some point you’ve got to pay them to get the work done,” Vice Admiral Thomas Moore, head of the Naval Sea Systems Command at the time, said in 2019. But who will ultimately foot the bill remains unresolved. While no current estimates of the cost were available, in 2018 the Navy asked Congress to shift $30 million from other accounts to start repairing the damage.