HMS Queen Elizabeth will sail in late summer for the eastern seaboard of the US, say the Ministry of Defence.
The Ministry of Defence say that whilst in the Washington area the carrier will host the Atlantic Future Forum, which aims at ‘bringing the US and UK industry and military together to address the changing nature of warfare and shared threats both allies face at home and abroad’.

Defence Secretary Penny Mordaunt said:
“HMS Queen Elizabeth represents the best of British innovation and is a true embodiment of our international ambition. The fact that this important ship will have visited the US twice within her short service thus far is testament to our enduring transatlantic defence relationship.
In the week that we commemorate the 75th anniversary of the D-Day landings it is only right that we continue to look at how we can deepen our global partnerships to promote peace and deter future conflict.”

The deployment ‘WESTLANT 19’, will see HMS Queen Elizabeth and her crew conduct vital deck and warfare trials with British F-35 jets from 17 Test and Evaluation Squadron based in the USA and 617 Squadron based at RAF Marham, as well rotary wing training with Merlin and Wildcat helicopters, added the MoD in a release.
The Times, today, has an article moaning about the F-35. Nothing new, just what is already known about the spares shortage issue. It did not say it by name, but its other moan must have meant the ALIS.
My own view, is that the F-35 will become a great fighter in the end, but it is having more than its share of development/introduction issues.
The F-35 will never be able to overcome its inherent weakness, its limited internal weapons load. It will always have to choose between acting as the eyes and ears operating in tandem with a bomb/missile truck or abandoning its stealth to carry a significant weapon load out using external pylons. Even in stealth mode as it reveals its presence with the first shot. So it must then manoeuvre to avoid getting itself into a dogfight which it would probably lose. There will never be sufficient numbers to overcome its limitations. So if it is limited in peer to peer engagements using a trillion $ plane to remove a pick up full of AK47 armed terrorists makes little sense.
Yeah but typhoon and almost all other jets on earth have external mounting points…. And we British will be able to have external weapons on our F35 if we fight against the other 98% of the world that don’t have stealth aircraft…. duh
Indeed
typhoon should have included a vstol version.
LOL
It has proven over and over again that it is no slouch in the dog fighting department. Plus it should never get to that point as its sensor suite enables it to fight from a distance. It also has more than its shape and coating in relation to stealth. It has some of the most advance radar jamming equipment in existence and so can mask itself quite effectively even when launching weapons. You also seem to misunderstand stealth. It will not reveal its existence by opening its weapons bays as its existence will already be know. However knowing where it is and being able to lock on to it in order to shoot it down are two very different things. There are many radar systems that can see stealth aircraft (in fact I think standard airport systems can do that) however those systems can not be used to target aircraft and guide missiles on to them. It is certainly not particularly limited and is in fact an astonishing weapons platform that along with Typhoon will be world class and pretty devastating to any enemy that chooses to go against them.
This is one of the reasons it has been flying in pairs with Typhoons. The F35 being the eyes for the Typhoon, scouting far ahead. Giving targeting and mid-course correction information for its Meteors. Especially as the Typhoon can carry at least 8 Meteors. The idea being the F35 does not use any of its weapons, but uses the Typhoon’s instead.
Our F35Bs will be carrying the ASRAAM, this has double the range of the Sidewinder of equivalent AA11 Archer missiles. The idea being the F35B “should” never get in the opponent aircraft’s short range missile envelope. It can fire and immediately evade much sooner than the opponent can, giving vital seconds.
Granted, you could probably detect a F35 when it opens it weapons bay to fire off a weapon. However, if the aircraft is operating purely in the fighter mode, without supervision from AEW. Its APG-81 radar will detect a target far sooner that it is detected. It will be carrying a mix of Meteor and ASRAAM. The Meteor range performance matches its radar range. Therefore, in a one on one fight it will be able to shoot much earlier than the opponent can detect it, regardless of the doors being open.
The F35 may be relatively slow (Mach 1.5ish) compared to its peers, yet it can supercruise and has a good supersonic turn rate. You would be surprised on how well it can perform in a dogfight, yes, its not in the same league as a Typhoon or Su35. However, it has a surplus of thrust, so can accelerate very quickly. This is crucial in a turning knife-fight, where the aircraft is doing some manoeuvres getting very close to their stall margins. Therefore, it is crucial that the aircraft can maintain kinetic energy during high g turns, but also can accelerate very quickly. The Typhoon and SU35 excel at this and the F35 is not that far behind.
For the F35s operating from the carrier, I forsee a similar arrangement where you have a pair of F35s operating some distance apart, one in “full stealth mode”, whilst the other uses pylons to extend its missile load-out.
Israel, are developing conformal fuel tanks for their F35As. Which will give the aircraft the combat range to reach Iran. These tanks are designed to minimise to be stealthy and not increase the aircraft’s RCS. You can bet that these tanks will be on the MOD’s wish list, if they work, which will significantly increase the F35B’s range.
The aircraft is new and we are still learning its capabilities. Perhaps it’s bit early to say its naff. Once its been around for a while, then its best to judge. Yes, the weapons bays of the B model are compromised compared to the A and C, but it does have STOVL which in some respects gives it an advantage over the others.
Her STOVL ability is a greatly underestimated plus DaveyB and is unmatched by any other aircraft in the world
i see the u.s has built a f 22 raptor VERTICAL TAKE OFF AND LANDING AIRCRAFT GOOGLE F22 JUMP JET
It hasn’t, Andy.
And which planet do you live on Andy?
A couple of points. Even if the F-35 is used as the eyes and ears role this would be result in deminishing returns. As soon as the F-35 transmits to Typhoons or to Meteors its EM emissions light up its position. The F-35 is not invisible. It is a low observable aircraft. Once it reveals its presence the task of tracking it is eased. I understand that the F-35 can only carry 2 Meteors internally (Meteors are too big for secondary internal hard points) and 2 ASSRAM. Not much to go up against an opponent with a reasonable air force. Despite the recent suggestions ( planted? ) that the F35 can stand up for itself in a dogfight, it has never been able to shake off the revelations that it could not escape the gun on 30 year old F16’s in mock dogfights. The National Interest said ” An F-35 stealth fighter that gets in a short-range duel with a Flanker-E will be in big trouble.” What chance against a SU-57 or even Chinese export J-31’s. Maybe due it is due the above limitations that the UK has basically only chosen the F-35 for carrier roles. And this may not have been as automatic as the sales pitch suggests. I do remember reading that when the UK appeared to be changing its mind and decided to install cats on the carriers the US declined to transfer catapult technology. The reason being if the UK dropped out of the F-35B order the entire development cost would come from the US marines budget. Given all the above surely the original statement that the F-35 will turn a “great fighter” is questionable. One thing is certain the F-35 will not be the supreme and CHEAP Jack of all Trades that it was orginally advertised it would be.
No one advertised the F35 as Cheap….
And you utterly misunderstand pretty much everything about military aircraft.
Stealth is indeed low-observable. However many radars can easily see them and give positions on them. They are only low observable to specific radar wavelengths. Those wave lengths are the ones used for targeting. If you can’t target the aircraft then you can not shoot it down with radar guided missiles. It also has all sorts of advanced radar jammers, laser jammers and heat seeking decoys etc. It also should never get close enough to dogfight as something has gone very wrong if it is in that position. However if it does need to dogfight then it can hold its own pretty well against almost anything and can even target enemies for other aircraft to fire on. One has even guided ship based missiles onto a target. I mean it is unlikely that any fighter jet wants to get into a dogfight these days, not just the F35.
We did not need US catapult technology. We are very well able to develop that ourselves and the US at the time had not progressed massively on their tech anyway. The decision was based on the sheer cost of retrofitting cats to the current design and the cost of cancelling the contracts for the F35B.
On the face of it I think the deployment rate of the F35B from and back to the carriers will easily exceed that of the F35C to it may well be a better purchase anyway. I would have liked cats just for flexibility but I think the benefits of the F35B outweigh those of the F35C.
1 Cheap. The F-35 grew out of a program initially named “ Common AFFORDABLE Lightweight Fighter”. The objective was to develop a CHEAP fighter to support the F22 program whose unit cost had grown to such an extent that the F22 program was eventually shut down mainly because costs had become unacceptable.
2. I am not disputing the capability of the F-35 to collect and process data. Nor did I dispute that the F-35 is difficult detect with, C, X or Ku bands. But when it does emit or increase its RCS ( radar cross section ) it reveals its presence and all that flashy stealth goes out the window. My point was that stealth has its limits and the sales pitch is distracting from this. In addition to this weakness a technology development is almost certain to catch up with the F-35. It was a surprise in Gulf War 1 when the RN’s obsolete L band radars detected the F117. It had not been tested against this old tech. But the Serbs learned to exploit this weakeness when they shot down the Nighthawk. Similarly, the Chinese are now claiming to have developed a M band radar which eliminates current stealth. If this is correct the US and UK have got a lot of slow fighters with poor manoeuvrability, limited payload and range, demanding a huge amount of support for availability and the most expensive front line fighter in production.
3. You are also incorrect on the cats. Once the decision to go for gas turbine propulsion was taken in the 1990’s it was not possible to install cats. Gas turbines do not generate the heat/stream required for traditional cats. But by 2010 it appeared that the US had developed the EMALS which could operate just on the electricity supplied by the gas system. It was NEVER a practical option for the UK to try and develop a magnetic system independently. Now the MoD and the Coalition govt were not stupid. Before announcing such an apparently embarrassing U turn and that cats would be installed after all, there would have been dozens of feasibility and costs studies. A wave of insults and ridicule from Labour was inevitable so the Coalition had to be clear that installing cats provided a cost effective enhancement to the carriers capabilities. So if that was bad enough what on earth provoked the Coalition govt go back on its U turn and appear even more incompetent. It is inconceivable that the cost of installing cats had not been calculated. Whatever the reason for performing a U turn on the U turn it was NOT that somebody had just done the sums.
It is possible to run emals on gas turbines. The issue was cost of a complete redesign of the ships.
As with the F35s stealth… Again you are totally misunderstanding it. You claim that if it increases its radar cross section momentarily then it suddenly reveals itself… That is not exactly the case. For a start it is just a few seconds, which is not enough for a target acquisition and engagement. Also you are forgetting that part of its stealthiness is the ability to blind radars. If you blind the radar you could have the cross section of an aircraft carrier and still not be targeted.
I am also not aware that it was ever meant to be cheap… I mean I have not even heard the terms “Affordable” in relation to the program. However “Affordable” is relative. We have committed to well over a hundred so it is clearly affordable for us otherwise we would not have them. The F35 program was born out of the need for a single aircraft to replace many others, this was to reduce costs but was never marketed as “Cheap”. Yes it has gone over budget but then so does pretty much every advanced military project. It is still pretty good value for the capability it gives. It is the worlds most advanced military aircraft, that was always going to be costly.
Lee. I did said stream cats are not possible with GT. EMALS just a matter of providing power not steam/heat. I was not aware that the F-35 could blind radars.
And I think that is the issue here. You are rubbishing so etching you know little about.
And sorry I did not see that you mentioned steam. It did not cross my mind as I am pretty sure that the cats were always likely to be electric. However even for electric cars there would have had to be major changes to the structure of the ship as they take up space below that is currently deck space. It would have cost huge amounts.
BEHAVE YOU PAIR.
NEITHER OF YOU MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME I STILL ADORE THE SOPWITH CAMEL!!
Believe the Israelis have proven the effectiveness of the F-35, it’s stealth and fighter/bomber abilities over Syria attacking Iranian terrorist targets.
John, I clearly cannot dissuade you, but just to clarify. The F16 v F35 dual was done some years ago when the F35’s flight control software limited the aircraft to +5g, so was at a significant disadvantage. Recently in last years Red Flag the F35As had a 17 to 1 kill ratio against F15, F16 and F18s. There hasn’t been any information against Typhoon or F22s. These exercises are the closest you can get to real war scenarios. A lot was said about how crap the Harrier would be in air to air combat, but it proved time and again how versatile it could be. If a F16 got on the tail of a F35B equipped with Asraam it had better keep an eye out for an over the shoulder launch. The Aussies have recently proved Asraam will lock-on after launch with an over the shoulder drone engagement.
Granted the B variant is not as fast or nimble as the A, as the wider fuselage needed for the lift fan creates more drag and thus limits its top speed and its turns to 7G. However, it must be remembered the B option is still the fastest and cheapest route to carrier aviation for us. If we went for cats and traps the QE would still be looking at several years of trials trying to get the EMALS system to work properly (especially as the US bought out our competing company).
I don’t think we should knock the B variant just yet, as it still has great potential. Lockheed Martin are developing a pallet for the bomb bays to increase the missile load i.e. an additional pair of Amraams per bay. The Meteor will be compatible with the pallet. This will give 6 Meteors and 2 Asraams carried internally. LM have talked about increasing the pallet load to 3 missiles as they reckon this is feasible. BAE have also been developing a underwing mounted combined stealthy pylon and missile container, which probably is not as stealthy as a empty wing, but will be significantly stealthier than a normal pylon arrangement. The container can be used for Meteor or Asraam with a different container for Brimestone.
DaveyB. The rules of engagement and mission roles for Red Flag have not been released. It has not been confirmed that the F-35’s alone achieved these kill ratio’s Last year it was 20:1 but again I am not aware that the kills were solely attributed to F-35’s. Maybe they were. Just wondering why no headlines boasting of such a apparently fantastic performance when there is so much negative reporting?
John, I must admit I have some insider information, as I have a number of friends on the OEU in the States. I am not sure why the overwhelming success on Red Flag hasn’t been promoted, but nonetheless its true.
If you’re interested try this link – bit of a sales pitch, but has some good info.
https://www.f35.com
As recently as two years ago project Bablefish was conducting trials bewteen F35Bs and Typhoons. The Typhoon only has the Link-16 datalink, whereas the F35 has the Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), this is like comparing 2g to 4g. However, the F35’s MADL is also highly directional, so is very difficult to detect. It uses similar beam guiding principles to AESA radar. Unlike the Link-16 which uses an omni-directional antenna to broadcast. The trial was to see if the F35 could convert some of the MADL code into Link-16 code and still use the MADL’s narrow beam transmissions. The trial was very succesful, it allowed the Typhoon to receive the F35’s imagery and mission data without the F35 giving away its position. Unfortunately the Typhoon’s Link-16 is quite detectable, but the F35 could read the Typhoon’s Link-16 data.
There is hope that the MOD will look at incorportaing MADL into the Typhoon but also other aircraft (it’s not cheap though).
DavyB. You have certainly removed some of my ignorance and concerns. But if the Chinese have developed this M band radar that would have serious consequecies.
So, no boasting implies poor performance. Got it.
There are plenty of stories you can find. However the papers will never print positive news as that does not sell papers to the same degree as bad news even if the bad news is effectively made up (Daily Mail ahem…) Don’t base your facts on how often something appears in the news…
The sky is falling! No, just the F-35.
What a load of narrow minded tosh
The manufacturer has designed an upgrade to the F-35’s internal weapons load, thus increasing the number of weapons in can carry there.
Agree with your comment. High tech aircraft have many more development problems than those which proceeded them. A perfect example is the V-22, almost dumped during it’s development, due to cost issues, i.e., cost overruns and it’s high cost in aircrew due to crashes. Today however, it is being flown primarily by the USMC and has proved itself in combat. The U.S. Navy is projected to purchase [20] plus, replacing the older C-2 Greyhound for COD duties. The V-22 long with the F-35 will be around for years to come.
Great to see the QE carrier and hopefully the PoW will follow soon…What is the progress in the PoW Glad to see also UK government reversed position on Huawei…not surprising really when the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were clearly unhappy at our former PM May making that dreadful decision.
It would be interesting to see who was promoting the Huawei 5G deal and why? I’m glad someone has finally seen sense in that there are no parts of a cell network that cannot be subverted.
David Cameron’s ex Civil Service chums, one of whom now works for Huawei UK, according to an article shared on UKDJ by a poster weeks back.
Typical, I wish there was a method of policing these kind of things.
Absolutely! Happens in defence too though doesn’t it. Self interest. Retired officers joining the boards of the Military Industrial Complex companies and pushing their wares.
Why should some Civil Servants not have their noses in the trough like many MP’s.
Great if that is confirmed but looking I can only see suggestions from the Home and Foreign Secretaries that they would reverse IF they are PM.
Nothing official I can see sadly.
Excuse me being flippant but would that ‘port near Washington DC’ be Baltimore? And if so will QE sail there with a humongous great Union Flag as a battle pennant at her masthead? …
For those wondering: War of 1812 and Baltimore where the words of ‘Stars & Stripes’ were written before being set to a Royal Navy drinking song …. Oh the irony!
Yes I always found that funny. Our anthem also is from an old drinking song too of course. Weirder still was watching my local Morris men performing to what I always thought were Confederate war songs but now know better.
The USA has had (I believe) 5 anthems. Stars & Stripes was formally recognised in 1931 but for the previous 100 years they had another: “America” (My Country, Tis of Thee). Sung to guess what tune? ‘God Save our Gracious King / Queen.’ Although we stole that as you say from the Germans as it was ‘God save Saxony’!
Pair of thieves really mate ….Lol
You believe wrongly. The US had no official national anthem until 1931 when “The Star Spangled Banner”, not “Stars and Stripes” was recognized as the official national anthem. “My Country Tis of Thee” was never the official US anthem. Although it was sung, “Hail Columbia” was just as often sung.
@pkcasimir – Sorry I was using the term ‘Stars & Stripes’ to mean “The Star Spangled Banner” as I have heard Americans use it. My mistake, I should have been more accurate and I apologise.
But I think my main point (which was started as a bit of fun btw) still stands. Yes in law 1931 marked the first US National Anthem (and as I said ‘was formally recognised in 1931’) which is remarkable given that infers that for some 155 years one of the most frenetically patriotic countries didn’t have one. Well hence my point. And as the late and very listenable Alistair Cooke mentioned in one of his ‘Letters from America’ in 1987:
“My Country, ‘Tis of Thee’ is very rarely heard these days, though right into the 1930s, it was played as often as ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ as an alternative national anthem”
And was a ‘de facto’ National Anthem during the preceding 100 years.
I am also old enough to remember Alistair Cooke, more so for his introductions of British dramas on PBS than his Letters. Cooke had a love of America but unfortunately he had very little knowledge of the US beyond the Appalachian mountains and I would take his observations about America with that understanding in mind.
Up until the Civil War, loyalty was to the State more so than the Federal Government. Americans identified themselves first as Virginians, etc. It wasn’t until the Spanish American War that the nation started to coalesce into American first. That was accelerated by the US’s entrance into WW1, the single biggest foreign policy error in US history, but that’s a discussion for another day.
It was during the World Series in 1918 that the Star Spangled Banner started being played as a patriotic gesture. It had been played sporadically in the 1800s baseball games but no more so than other songs.”Hail Columbia” was just as often sung as The Star Spangled Banner and Cooke’s assertion that it was an alternative national anthem is a bit of British misinformation.
When Congress adopted The Star Spangled Banner in 1931 as the official national anthem it was only responding to something that had really started during a World Series baseball game and grew from there.
@pkcasimir – On a tangent I never understood the justification for why the Americans call the championship of a game no other country plays as ‘The World Series’. And when US Service people i worked with were sent home they called it ‘going back to the world’.
Here is the best explanation I have come across.
“For many years, it was believed that the name came from the fact that the original series was sponsored by the New York World Telegram newspaper, thus becoming known as the ‘World’s Series’. However, popular as this explanation may be, it’s not actually true and although the newspaper did report the results of the games, it had nothing to do with the naming of the competition.
The real reason behind the name is thanks to Barney Dreyfuss who was the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates. In 1903, he wrote to the owner of the Boston Red Sox challenging them to a ‘World’s Championship Series’. The Pirates were the best team in the National League and the Red Sox were the best in the American League.
The games went ahead and Boston won the series five games to three. Over time, the ‘World’s Championship Series’ name has been shortened to the World Series and has been played every year apart from 1904 and 1994.”
As far as going “back to the world.” Americans mean that they are going back to their homes and family. Not “the world” in your sense, but their “world.” Hope that makes sense.
“… of a game no other country plays…”
Actually Baseball is quite popular in many Latin American countries. Quite a few MLB players come from these countries.
Baseball is also quite popular in Japan as well as South Korea. It is seeing a resurgence in popularity in the Philippines as well. Even Australia has a Baseball League.
So HMSQE will have visited the USA twice when she hasn’t been to Birmingham once? I’m disgusted what are my taxes paying for?
The docking facilities on the East coast of the USA are easier to navigate than those in Birmingham John..(so I have heard)
We have a first rate canal system. But yes we might need to upgrade a few of the locks…
AND DO A LOT OF DREDGING
It has a lowerable mast for the bridges though.