Iran has seized a South Korean-flagged tanker in the Persian Gulf.
This incident has occured at a time of tension between Iran and South Korea after Iranian funds were frozen at South Korean banks due to U.S. sanctions.
The ship was travelling from Saudi Arabia to the port of Fujairah in the United Arab Emirates.
The UK maritime Trade Operations website said the following in a statement:
“UKMTO are aware that an interaction occurred this morning between 0615 – 0733Z within the Straits of Hormuz between a Merchant Vessel and the Iranian Authorities. As a consequence of this interaction the Merchant Vessel made an alteration of course North and proceeded into Iranian Territorial Waters”
Open Source Intelligence Twitter account SkyWatcher Intel is following the incident, if you don’t follow them then I’d suggest you go do that now.
https://twitter.com/skywatcherintel/status/1346053363377561600
According to Reuters here, the semi-official Tasnim news agency published pictures showing what it identified as Guards speed boats escorting the tanker HANKUK CHEMI, which it said was carrying 7,200 tonnes of ethanol.
“It said the vessel’s crew members had been detained and included nationals of South Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam and Myanmar, but did not say how many there were. It said the tanker was being held at Iran’s Bandar Abbas port city.”
More on this as it develops.
I’d be Buggered if i’d let a bunch of small boats like that Seize my ship….. guns or not…… Let them try attacking and see what happens……..
Hi Captain, I can’t decide if you are joking or not? Remember some of those small vessels are equiped with Soviet heavy machine guns and or RPG’s. The machine guns will rip through the steel plating of a cargo ship’s hull and superstructure and make a mess of equipment and crew. Frankly, I’d stop as the Iranians have fired on vessels in the past and as long as your alive there’s a chance of seeing your family again. Also, as a civilian crewman why would I want to take the hit because of someone else’s actions! I ain’t trained, equipped… Read more »
Bugger me mate…….. you need to get in a fight/war ….. you’ll soon work out if I’m joking or not………
Put your fishing rods away old man.
A crew of civis is no match for a trained crack squad of Iranian armed forces.
I very much doubt that they were a ‘trained crack squad’ – rather poorly trained and disciplined militia, whatever they are called. Which makes them more dangerous and unpredictable.
I don’t fish and I’m not too old to know different mate…… Tell me your history and I’ll tell you mine.
Just wondering how old you are mate ? and, do you think you will not be older in a few years ? …….. Tell you what though, enjoy being 11 because you’ll soon be a grown up.
Me 11, a bit pot, kettle that slur fella. I’ve plenty of experience and knowledge in this field and that’s all Ill say. I don’t need to tell an old washed up fuddy duddy my CV.
Especially one who attempts to act like the mature adult while driving a Captain Pugwash meme account
Ah.but if the ‘ol Cap’n do tun out his 9 ponders and finishes off the shag youm be in for a bit ‘o bother i’ll bet.
Im assuming the Iranians used a helecptor to board the ship. Its a fight you would be certain to lose anyway if the crew did put up a fight considering the cargo is highly flamable.
I think you are missing the most basic point here…… Jeesus H christ chaps, I’d hate to see you lot on the front line…… Run away….. !
Agree with you Captain. If the ship had resisted in international waters and put out a mayday. The Iranians would like have not risked killing South Korean nationals on a South Korean flagged vessel in international waters.
Perhaps a lack of security preperation but they should have had bridge and citadel shut down to resist armed intrusion for a limited period of time.
Ultimately the Iranians would have captured the vessel but it would have caused a huge international issue. In essence the Iranian guard would have been obviously guilty of piracy (again)
Exactly mate.
Yeh, if I was a crewman sitting on what is in effect a blinking great molotov cocktail I’d very politely lower the rope ladder and offer ’em a cup of tea! There is no war on, it is an argument over assets way above my pay grade! Seriously, though if countries are going to impose sanctions on Iran they really should think about how Iran is going to respond. Seizing shipping is pretty much routine response, so either make sure no ships with the offending flag or ownship is anywhere Iran or send in your navy. South Korea has a… Read more »
Oh dear mate…… oh deary me. Seriously ?
It’s a shame the like/dislike system got taken off this site
Because then your macho man Charlie big spuds one man army ridiculous Steven Seagal posts would be down voted and you would have another public meltdown because your posts are always in the minus like you did in 2018
Funny days
I live in your head rent free.
Yes, You were at the height of your Trolling and Attention seeking skills, I bet you miss all the Downvoting and trolling the ones who have gone from here.
Actually, that was me……arf…arf ?
no shit, Really ?
If Google is to be trusted a SK able seaman earns 20k GBP equivalent. For twenty grand would I fuck tangle with the bloody IRG over spirits.
Yeah…. a few more like yo and we wouldn’t need and an army and a navy. Get them all telt Pugwash.
For clarity, I’m ripping the piss.
Talking Shit more like.
Lol, I picture you as Captain Haddock armed and dangerous with that sort of rallying talk Capn….!
Captain Haddock I can live with too ! Anyone trying to take my stuff would be dealt with swiftly and with a degree of Violence, not sure too many others on here would though !
I expect Germany and France will lead for the Iranian defence in the court of international opinion.
I doubt it !
I have it on good authority that both Germany and France are best of friends with Tehran. Both are very eager for Mr Biden to join them.
johnson and rabb have stated the uk is committed to the Iran nuclear deal. So not sure we are any different than Germany or France.
Johnson also stated he would consider a Trump deal, if he would only get on and make one. But I guess he didn’t, so are stuck with Obama’s.
The Iran nuclear deal. Are you joking??? You must be. That is no deal. Iran is not compliant and is already trying to enrich uranium upto 25%. This is, for those not familiar with nuclear technology, the precursor to a fast breeder reaction to further enrich upto weapons grade Uranium which for explosive yield needs to be as close to 100% purity as possible for U238. Hell the Iranians have even admitted they are going from 5% (nuclear power fission material) to 25% uranium. The ONLY reason to go to 25% is to fast breed reaction and further enrich to… Read more »
I am not saying I want Iran to have nuclear weapons, I am just stating that the UKs stance on the Iran deal is very similar to Germany and France.
iran was compliant until the US withdrew from the deal in reinstated sanctions. Trumps actions was always going to cause enrichment to restart.
The Comments on here so far are very worrying indeed….. looks like most of you have absolutely no balls whatsoever….. It’s a good job you can sit at home and hide behind a bloody keyboard….. you’d be no good in a real conflict. Go search the last time we got boarded by the Iranians chaps…….
Well the Royal Navy are not forgiven for their glowing demand that the captured RN and ROYAL get their iphones back…
However, that being said, something needs to be done to put their small craft at the bottom of the seabed and an almighty kicking handed out to the tw@ts! Something in the way of limpet mines? And, while I am punching a keyboard, I hope the Carrier will give them a little flypast next year when in international waters… but they do really need to feel some pain.
Well thank you mate….. I was beginning to think this site was full of Snowflakes for a bit there…… It’s a good job we still have people willing to sail in harms way ……
To be fair i think a lot of the other comments were around the inability of the crews of merchant ships to take on even the smallest of Iran’s fast boats. Some tankers will have a handful of small arms and I remember a few instances of private security teams being onboard certain vessels going through The Red Sea when the Somali pirates were at their most active – but clearly none of that is intended to take on military boats that will be armed with a variety of heavy machine guns, cannons, torpedo’s and light missiles!
I think we are confusing dealing with pirate with dealing with sovereign forces that can call on backup. Pirates are not interested in creating flaming wrecks and I would be inclined to turn the other cheek unless they had heavy weapons. If I had marines or security on board I would try and tough it out on a ‘more trouble then it is worth basis’. I’d be reticent about trying to face off sovereign forces in that narrow confined space where there could be any amount of fire power rained down from shore. I give it a go at ignoring… Read more »
Yes, the USN has it uses, that AB destroyer outside a Japanese port in 2018, another AB near Singapore…
Oh, you mean the Royal Navy!?
Hi Captain,
I was talking from the stand point of a CIVILIAN sailor! Being on a RN warship yes give ’em hell. T31 with 40 and 57mm rapid fire guns and possibly guided rounds – go for it – purpose built for dealing with FIAC’s. But as a civilian with many be a hand gun – really! Especially sat on a chemical tanker!!!
Come on, mate be realistic.
Cheers CR
The biggest snowflake this site has ever seen is you You have quit and rejoined this site twice now The last time you had a very public meltdown on these pages because a few of your posts got a down vote, you started writing in caps lock screaming at everyone what was wrong with your posts and asking people why they were downvoting them, then made a public goodbye to everyone saying you were done with the site, it was mourned by about 3 people Big hard man snowflake I have been reading this site since the most exciting piece… Read more »
I live in your head rent free.
You said: ‘it was mourned by about 3 people’ possibly 5 now? I have been thinking about that one, and one of his acolytes is still current and is remarkably noticeable by his absence. I wonder why that is?
They probably know he’s being even more delusional than usual with this one.
Or could be the one who got banned after this guys public meltdown and started commenting under a different name, does not want to out himself
There seems to be some Iranians or Purin Bots on this site. Just stating the obvious but why cant you guys go chat on your anti western sites? leave those interested in defence to debate how to kick arse out of the dimwits that are the Iranian Republican Guard tearing the place up in speed boats and with machine guns. Utter idiots. They would last precisely 5 seconds vs a real military. Instead they enjoy acts of piracy and picking on unarmed merchant shipping.
Utter cowards
Ah, here we go ….. one of Captain earwash’s idiot crew to the rescue. Not long before the other turns up….though I expect that he might be too embarrassed this time. ?
Yet another set of Insults at yet another member with an opinion. It’s not all about you mate.
All got banned due to having opinions that differed from yours and Sole. Rear Gunner, Cam, Chris H and a few others were effectively Trolled off the site. Once a Troll always a Troll. At least we managed to get the Voting system that was so loved by certain members, deleted though. I wasn’t able to post here but was able to still read the comments/arguments. It’s the same on other sites including Twitter, some people just love to troll, it makes them feel good about themselves.
My heart bleeds for you. As I remember, you excluded yourself by making an appalling comment about a female recruit that had been assaulted in barracks! Just unacceptable!
As for RG….he resurfaced using a different ID.
Not long before you slide off your idiot perch again methinks.
See ? Another classic Trolling type reply. With another Insult thrown in for good measure.
Nevertheless, your comment about girl recruits to the army is a matter of record. Perhaps you’d like to repeat that comment so that others can see what a loathsome creature you really are! You aren’t fit to be on any forum!
Keep Trolling, It’s all you have that you are any good at. Actually you deserve an Upvote for all the effort.
I would say calm down guys we are all on the same side we being the UK but I would be a hypocrite with some of my rants I’ve gone on.
Yes, True mate but I enjoy yours ! Some on here just enjoy Trolling because they think too much of themselves, Much too much to be honest and have no real connections with this place other than feeling comfy Trolling and getting people “Expelled” ….. I’ve learned that little Spiteful angle now though. Twas so funny watching Halitosis and Billy No Mates Strutting their stuff on here after getting a few other members “Expelled” Heck, They even thought they were Typing funny replies !
No DS30m with Martlett mounts. Oh wait a minute that would mean having an adequate RN presence or even an adequately sized and armed RN. That’s not going to happen anytime soon. Thanks to covid and uk being bankrupt by the damn disease.
Theirs fighting a fair fight, then theres simply inviting a slaughter for nothing more than your pride. If it was the likes of Pirates or ISIS bording my vessel I certainly would fight to the death, but given that as a captive of Iran you’d likely be returned home in a few months. I’d rather put up with a bit of a kicking at worse and some cameras in my face, then get shoot in the gut cause I decided to take on a soldier with a crow bar
Looks like the Iranians are saying it was causing pollution in the Gulf, so they’re probably boarded stating some BS, like we need to do an inspection then seized the vessel.
I take it captain p wash you served in the army ?
Yeah he was next to Leonidas at the battle of Thermopylae
Now thay was a friggin fight….if I was there I would be pulling up the sandbag and telling everyone….tho my abs, tho good, may have forced me to be in the second rank…. ?
Sole clearly has a better memory than I do……I’d forgotten most of that stuff. What I do remember is PW saying he was on the Hermes, or was that someone else? Nurse, it’s time for my medication!
That was Chris H, another now departed it seems.
I think about Chris H when I’m having a political ding dong on Twitter, I miss an opponent of his calibre
Wonder how he’s getting on, hope he’s survived covid because he was in his 70’s when he was posting on here.
Evening Sole.
Agree. Your debates were legendary.
Lol…… Cringeworthy like that David Brent chap more like. Attention seeking, whilst Downvoting furiously with a pumped up wrist action.
Trolled off the site like so many others.
You still haven’t got it Donald, have you. You lost?
Lost what ? it’s a forum, thats all. I guess by calling me Donald, you are throwing some kind of insult ? I thought you were a Teacher, most teachers I’ve met are Intelligent enough not to have to resort to insults or Trolling come to that. What’s wrong mate, not getting enough attention ? Again.
Q) Lost what?
A) You got expelled
Teacher predicts that you are heading for another expulsion! As for teachers not trolling or resorting to insults; you clearly have not spent much time in staff rooms 🙂
Nope, I’m here and you are without your Down Vote option, so I guess you might have lost whatever you think your Mind thinks was a battle…… Keyboard Warriors(Trolls with no history of the site they are on ) all seem to behave the same way on sites like this…. You are no exception.
Royal Navy 24 Years.
Ahh ok cheers
You’re welcome mate. Dad was SBS, Son is on Type 23, Grandad was sunk in WW2. HMS Hermes, HMS Fearless, HMS Bristol, HMS Illustrious, HMS Chatham. “Washed up old has been” now though …. !
Fair play mate….
They’re a bunch of Korean, Vietnamese & Indonesian unarmed merchant sailers not the SBS ffs, stop giving it big undies it’s embarrassing, you sound like Jay out the inbetweeners.
I live in your head rent free.
Nevertheless they could have frustrated and delayed the take over if they had some simple security measures in place. Like a shutdown citadel. Locked down bridge and engine room or a secondary control centre and had just simply shut the engines down. The Iranians then couldn’t have taken the ship into their territorial waters.
Yeah it does make you wonder….
They do have security measures in place for all kinds of incidents, the measures in place for being stopped by a sovereign armed forces of a country will be to comply fully and do as they are told, like all civilians are told to do in their daily lives. Don’t think shipping companies will have too many job applications when in the list of duties section it says..when threatened by a navy with gunboats, batten down the hatches, hide and hope for the best, or like other plonkers have suggested, fight until last man with wrenches and screwdrivers Have a… Read more »
Sole you are correct, and so is Capn….ships do have security measures, but that will depend on where they are sailing, as im sure you are aware. For example, a tanker doing the Persian Gulf will have noise, water and static defence (wire) etc, and they do rely on the various navies in the region for protection. While the tankers doing the Somali run will have the same, plus at least a team of 4 lads, armed, standing watch, annoying the captain, in the corner of the bridge. I understand what Capn is saying, and in some crews they have… Read more »
Watch yourself mate, having an opinion on here will only attract the Troll, he likes to be centre stage, Playground Bully, it feeds his ego and he loves the attention. Every site has one that’s why others get fed up and loose interest in contributing.
Sole appears to be living in your head…rent free 🙂
Well I’m certainly living in yours mate, what’s up, you not happy that you’re not getting the attention you seem to seek ? What’s next on your Troll Menu ?
Your expulsion! Just a matter of time!
Just like last time then. That’s how Trolls work/think on sites like this. Every site has people like you, wind up merchants with no knowledge of the subject, nor any experience whatsoever but they just come to cause trouble and get people to react. Classic Trolling.
Why are you here on the UKDJ site exactly mate. I’m dying to know ? What experiences have you had, Where have you served, How much pain have you dealt with, Surely the Staff Room can’t be that dangerous a workplace ? Asking out of genuine interest.
Replying to yourself there John Wick
The only thing that is genuine about you is your base vulgarity! Everything else is a sham!
Back at you mate. Tell us all here of your own History mate.
You make a virtue of spending 24 years as the longest serving Killick in Naval history! My experiences have been posted (where relevant) over a number of years on this site….I am certainly not going to repeat them for a clown like you. So what about the comment that you made about that young soldier that was gang raped….oh yes ‘What do they expect’; you are one odious creature!
Back at you mate. You are just a Troll on a site you want to think as your own….. may I also remind you that my younger sister was Raped and killed ? Yet you choose to forget that …. I wonder why ehh ? Rather be a Clown than a Clunt …….
Don’t you ever think I might have just got angry that night ? at your Gross Ignorance of a subject you chose to highlight for no other reason than to get me to rise up to your obvious attempts to get me off “Your” Site ? ………… Read it again mate.
Meltdown incoming…..
Feel free mate, Don’t let me stop you.
It’s OK though, I’m used to people commenting on this like you do. Have fun with your Typing finger mate. It’s much admired by at least one other on here.
You are clearly mentally ill! I would say that you are psychotic! Your excuse above doesn’t make any sense You are just trying to gain sympathy by flying a kite. Your chum RGR did the same thing as he tried to make excuses for joking about victims of paedophilia by claiming that he had been abused as a child. You are beyond contempt!
The Koreans have sent a commando unit to the area apparently. could get interesting
A bit late, methinks…
Well the fact it is around and it may, or may not, be onboard is a significant deterrent to future escapades.
That is why having some frigates and/or destroyers around working in a coordinated manner works wonders for keeping things calm.
T31: ideal for this kind of work.
Not to worry. When creepy, old, dementia Joe takes over he will bend over to the Iranians just like he did with the Chicoms.
Yip – you hit the nail on the head Dan; Creepy Joe wants to get in bed with the Iranians ASAP and you just watch, they will extract a price for him doing so – which he will pay. The Iranians have already said they will only rejoin the 2015 agreement when the US pays them compensation. Joe has his cheque book ready!
yaaaaawn!!!
Since it was the americans that reneged on the deal while every other country agreed Iran was complying the US owe them compensation.
If you think for one second the regime in Iran has any intention of complying – within or outside – the nuke deal then you are delusional. Don’t hang your hat on what the IAEA says – and that is not a knock on the IAEA. The Iranian regime are masters at deceit and have played the West for fools. Obama wanted a ‘deal’ at any cost and shipped the Iranians $150Bn in cash on a plane in the dead of night – and got absolutely nothing in return (such as US citizens held in Iranian custody). John Kerry stood… Read more »
Well dan looks like creepy old Trumpski has been caught red handed with his corruption on the telephone lol, yes dan thats actual fact , something you Trumpski supporters are not very good with, still I’m sure you will have your white pride tin foil hat on believing Trumpski won the election lol.
Actually Dave, that wasn’t Trump, it was Rory Bremner trying out a new sketch??
Dont give dan any ideas for excuses lol.
This incident has happened just after Creepy Don recalled a carrier from active duty in the area!
USS Nimitz was already scheduled to return home after deployment. Trump had it turn around to stay on station longer
It sent A Wrong signal to recall the Nimitz without a replacement carrier group.
The US is struggling with carrier cover. They are trying to keep the ability to surge 3 carriers into the Western Pacific at a few weeks notice. Leaving Atlantic at times with no carrier cover and one carrier committed to eastern Mediterranean ops against Syria and Assad regimen.
The delays to the €14 billion each Ford class carrier programme are not helping.
I read the decision to recall the carrier group was to ease tensions in the Gulf.
But the decision to recall has a result to the opposite effect!
Remind me what the Donald’s ‘strategy’ has been over the last 4 years? From where i’m sitting he pulled out of the deal to appear the tough guy and to slash and burn anything from the Obama era and has provided no alternative agreement since.
Donalds grand strategy, say he wants to increase the Navy and does the opposite, cutting funds and vetoeing defense bills.
? yes good old slow Joe 30330 . Goodbye USA ??it would be funny were the reality not so serious. ??????????? eleventeen Million six hundred thousand one thousand and five ?
I think you are right. He does seem to have dementia. I’ve watched some of his speeches. He has signs of dementia and failing cognitive function
Yes, and he will still be 100% more fit for office than loser Trump!
Well said H.
Oh I agree Trump was an embarrassing president for the USA in terms of competent foreign policy. It’s just such a shame that Joe Bidden was the best candidate they could find to oust Trump. My personal hope. This is just my opinion so I dont expect to be trolled for having an opinion is that Bidden will serve 2 years then stand down for Camilla Harris to take over. That would be a great day for American politics. A black female President of the USA. Wonderful. Harris consistently impresses me every time she speaks. A bit like Keir Starmer.… Read more »
I couldn.t agree more with your assessment. But, can an elected president just quit without citing declining health or some other incapacity midterm? It would look a little contrived. Perhaps he will decline a second term in favour of Camilla Harris?
My Base Vulgarity smells a fair bit of Arse Licking going on here mate.
Or is it that you are now detecting that you are in a minority of one.
Two or three from what I’m seeing here mate…..
What happened to HMS Cornwall when this happened last time? Oops, scrapped now
Your posts are now worthless, not even a challenge…….
You gave in!
Probably another poster you have berated on here…….. heck it’s not like you haven’t told people off for replying is it ? Get over yourself mate, It’s not all about you.
Not really, but on occasion its like trying to correct a small retarded crayon eating child, and it can be tiresome, as we all know he is just a troll. I do ned to be more mature, but it can be hard to ignore such sadness.
That makes two of us then!
If I was Korea I’d take a staged approach. Condemn the seizure, rally international support, talk with Iran about release of tanker. Then if no effect on to the other preps. Increase Korean forces in Gulf region ( they may have a warship there already) , join up to IMSC, start seizing Iranian assets – Korean banks have billions frozen i gather so Korea should just legalise seizing it ( all sorts of fun there to be had – eg Korea could ‘fine’ Iran say $1m for each day ship is illegally impounded by Iran – if that doesn’t work… Read more »
The Korean navy is capable of defeating Iran in it’s own backyard. Dont believe me? Read up on theSejong the Great class destroyers. They are some of the most powerful warships in the world.
There was also a tanker at the OPLAT with a suspected Iranian Limpet mine attached to it. The local Bomb Disposal Team where removing it last I heard.
I try to be as objective as possible about such incidents and play the ‘What if’ game. So, if the Chinese were able to send a Carrier group through the Straits of Dover what would the UK do-they would monitor it within the rules of international law and allow unimpeded passage. Similarly if an Iranian vessel strayed briefly into British waters it would be warned or escorted off-not hounded and threatened further into UK waters and then seized. So that is the difference between the good guys and the’others’ and we should never feel any doubt as to who is… Read more »
..Port Stanley as it was in 1982. Now simply ‘Stanley’
Evening Geoff.
I recall the RM det at Port Stanley put up quite s fight first.
Morning Daniele. They did indeed and inflicted casualties on the invaders.They probably would have ‘fought to the last man’ but were instructed to stand down by the Governor! Hope you are well in Sunny Surrey.
Far to weak on the Iranians. If there are not enough naval vessels to stop their piracy, somebody needs to lure them into a q-ship trap.
The Iranians have been a serious pain in the Straits of Hormuz for decades, it’s getting very tired! What’s to be done? Well, we need robust action across the board, from severe sanctions, to Naval escorts of shipping. With a strong International Naval force in position, the Iranians should be informed that any and all attempts at piracy will dealt with via lethal armed response, without exception. This could also include air strikes on the bases the attack force launces from. The Straits of Hormuz need to be open for freedom of navigation and a joined up and strong international… Read more »
I agree that we need to up our naval presence (not that we have the ships it seems) in the region to protect our shipping interests, and more importantly our allies, but I would think post Iraq/afgan we hopefully have learnt that a offensive military solution would just make things worse. What we honestly need to do is get Iran back into the international community. The only thing that sanctions seem to do is isolate a country and help the ruling faction put out an image of the evil west and them or us mentality. Unfortunately Trump killed that chance… Read more »
I don’t disagree with you Steve, but there is a world of difference between putting boots on the ground in a never ending war of attrition with no clear goals or end game, as opposed to protecting an international right of navigation. Iran’s actions are extremely dangerous and close to an act of war against the flagged nation of the vessel affected. Should one of these acts of state piracy go wrong (it’s a miracle it hasn’t yet) and a ship ends up on fire, badly damaged with fatalities, it could dangerously escalate very quickly into a shooting war. It’s… Read more »
“I would think post Iraq/afgan we hopefully have learnt that a offensive military solution would just make things worse.” This kind of thinking is so “primitive”…it seems some people want forcefully to build rules when they do not exist. Iraq is not anymore a threat, another 11/9 did not happened. 11/9 happened precisely because there was no offensive military solution Well resisting Hitler made things worse, until he was defeated. There are no rules. “When you have a countries people buying western goods and driving around in their BMW with their iPhones etc, they will have way less interest in… Read more »
They need a coalition of powers to develop a convoy system backed up by armed warships from UK,India, Australia, Canada, USA if demented Joe can sign the deployment order put in front of him. That would reduce the ease of opportunity the Iranians are currently enjoying.
Not sure skirt the edge of the Geneva convention is the best way to go