The Irish Defence Forces will be getting at least three new primary search radars, it has been reported.
The news came after the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform confirmed that part of the defence budget has been allocated for such a purchase.
The need for primary search radars was highlighted in a report by the Commission on the Defence Forces.
The specific section of the ‘Equipment Development Plan 2020-24’ document ‘Future programmes at pre planning stage’ states:
“Beyond the very significant range of projects already underway or in existing planning streams, the EDP highlights others that are expected to progress in future phases of the plan. This is not an exhaustive list but gives an indication of the scale and range of programmes that will enter planning. At this stage there is not a definite commitment to pursue, or an associated time-frame, for these.
These include a primary radar system, air combat interceptor, replacement of the two Coastal Patrol vessels, acquisition of diver based mine counter-measures and counter improvised explosive device equipment, field catering equipment, various vehicles such as replacement mini-buses, military trailers and an armoured ambulance as well as various surveillance and explosive ordnance disposal equipment. A number of weapon systems are also earmarked in this category of pre-planning such as upgrade of the 105mm light artillery gun, the 60mm mortar, under-barrel Grenade Launcher M203 Replacement, RBS 70 MANPAD replacement Programme, Steyr Rifle – Mod 14 Upgrade – Under Barrel Rail and Foregrip.”
Sources told TheJournal.ie that the primary radar should have the equivalent capability of the Lockheed Martin TPY-4. The Journal.ie reported here:
“The state-of-the art technology utilised by the radar would be able to detect jets and drones at a range of altitudes. It could also be used to detect low-flying craft being used by drug gangs. Michael McGrath, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, confirmed in the Dáil this week that part of the Defence budget will be allocated to radar.
The budget will see €1.174 billion allocated to Defence Group funding – an increase of €67 million on the 2022 amount. The radar project will involve multiple sites with units – likely based on top of mountains – monitoring the airspace. Information will be fed back to a dedicated command and control centre.”
What’s the current situation?
The UK, on occasion, scrambles jets to intercept unresponsive aircraft in Irish-controlled airspace but make no mistake, the UK is not protecting Irish airspace.
Many believe that the UK is protecting Irish airspace or that British jets patrol Irish skies. That’s not true, the UK is not responsible for Irish air defence. In short and simple terms, the UK is protecting its own airspace and Ireland benefits from that.
Jumped several dozen steps there George, the Journal article hasn’t been backed up by any other sources. There’s about €15 million being allocated to start someone in DOD thinking about it, maybe push for a RFI in the next couple of years but with the restrictions within the procurement section of the Department don’t expect anything anytime soon.
Love that 1000km range. Target+Radar antenna must have a cumulative altitude of more than 60000m.
It’s the Journal talking about defence matters… Accuracy isn’t exactly a guaranteed outcome.
Would I be correct in assuming that it is the intention of the Irish Gov to marry this up with some form of air interceptor capability albeit some time in the future?
Ask whatever government we have around 2028-2030, it’s not going to be an issue till beyond that at best. Like I said in my first post this is jumping over a lot of steps by a far amount, right now the focus is on trying to change the existing structures and get new systems for training built up.
From Coveney’s pretty much last appearance as Minister for Defence the area of new capital procurement projects is far down the list, mainly because of the Retention issues, but also due to the limited capacity of the DOD for major projects.
Yes, I can see the aim of working their way through various projects and building better capabilities etc, but the radar is a expensive big ticket item, fair play to you for aiming to introduce it. The flip side is obviously you need something to go with it – interceptor/SAM systems etc or there doesn’t appear to be any point in procuring such an item.
Like I said, fair play for even trying to upgrade capabilities. Hope you get there.
Under the LoA3 recommendations (which Coveney for one supports) there would be a purchase of fighter capability in the 2030s, but that is based on building up to that level, right now even if the DF got a budget up the LoA3 €3-4 billion right now they couldn’t actually spend it given what needs to be put right first. Assuming the Government goes it’s full length and the next Minister backs the current positions it’s probably going to be closer to 2025 before there’s visible major capital projects like this moving to actual procurement. Next couple of years it will… Read more »
“LoA3 recommendations (which Coveney for one supports)”
…………………….really?
If you look at his comments to the Daíl and Seanad committees over the last week, I would say so. On the other hand such proposals are still the better part of a decade away from even being started so there’s no political cost for him to be backing it.
Meanwhile you have the various lefts of the Opposition who think LoA1 is too much even as is.
Given Russian ‘science’ ships lurking around Irish waters over the past 8 years, LO3 is what the state needs to get to. Hybrid warfare is a thing (Nord stream). Who knows what the Russians were doing in the Irish EEZ around the data cables.
Wages, retention and morale in armed forces is not a unique problem for Ireland. Many western countries are having the same problem currently but Ireland needs to work on that in tandem with improved equipment.
The solution is more money.
The DF literally couldn’t spend that amount of money right now, so even if successive governments stick to that target it’s still not going to happen this side of 2030. As for the Retention issue, with Ireland effectively at full economic employment firms are more than willing to outbid anything the state will pay, a recent case for example where a multinational just bought out the contracts of 5 apprenticeship naval electricians that were doing there time in the company. Pay for junior ranks is already set to improve (around an extra €6k a year and the current pay deal… Read more »
Canadian Armed Forces announced this week the same problem and are pushing for increased wages for not only new recruits but to retain the people they have. Also attractive work arrangements, not sure what that entails. To be competitive with the private sector for wages is a challenge.
There are 10,000 vacant positions in the Canadian forces currently.
If you take the Irish Navy for example, it sits in the heart of the major Pharma industrial sector in Cork along with the major IT firms, so pretty much every qualified person is on a shopping list by the private sector from chiefs to engineers to comms and command. Trying to keep them is a hard task at the best of times. For the AC it’s even worse being in Dublin with all the costs that brings but trying to get them out of it is a whole other headache itself. As you say, steps are being taken right… Read more »
There is another option, which might not be agreeable to some. Is that the Republic of Ireland and the UK organise a formal Defence Agreement. Whereby both parties support each other. There are a myriad of options and levels, whereby close cooperation and support is provided. This can be through lend-lease agreements, through to training and integration. Ranging from the basic ground based radar, fighter controllers and maintainers. To the lease of fast jets, which includes maintenance, logistical support and training. Being realistic, even if the RoI could afford something like the Kai-50. How would they afford the maintenance, training… Read more »
Not really no. I mean when you have other articles on this site highlighting the issues with the RAF pilot supply chain for example, were do you get all these extra pilots, or fit in Irish pilots? I mean perhaps that’s why the AC has been sending pilots to Australia and the States rather than the UK so far? Does the UK have a stockpile of equipment that it could just base in the Republic? The Republic could easily afford something like the Kai-50 if a political decision was made to do so, hence the suggestion from the Commission moving… Read more »
There are plenty of pilots flying desks itching to get back in the cockpit. The problem is that the vast majority of pilots are over a certain age and rank. They are not being replaced fast enough when leaving or retiring. Until recently the RAF had a near 2:1 manning policy. Where there would be at least 2 pilots for every in-service aircraft. This has dropped significantly, due to the woefully inadequate training. There is plenty of recruits, just not enough trainer aircraft or trainers. The current PFI contract can’t cope with the sudden demand. This has been well known… Read more »
I suspect that is referring to the radar’s ability to detect and track ballistic missiles.
The Aussia/US Jindalee radar has a range of 1000 to 3000km. Not what we are talking about here but don’t dismiss the feasibility of such a system. Various wavelengths skip multiple times off the atmosphere to extend a radar’s range.
If we had real politicians, we would tell them that if they didn’t buy a UK system, they would have to defend their own airspace and EEZ, and could not use any of ours. Also if we had real politicians we would have told them that if they messed with us over the N Ireland protocol we would make it illegal for the UK to ever help them, whether that we aid, defence, vaccines, intelligence, money like after 2008. We would also cancel the Common travel area and make it illegal for US companies operating in the UK to shift… Read more »
Nice rant, doesn’t make much sense but if it makes you feel better you do you.
What a silly rant, Britain has z huge Irish population as well as decendants, try and get rid of the common travel area, this benefits both Britain and Irish people.
As for the N.I protocol it has to be honoured, the British will loose out hugely if they try and side step this.
Tax haven what a stupid and silly comment, Ireland is no longer subject to Britain ripping us of, we set our own competitive tax rates.
The British airforce does not protect Irish airspace, its protecting British airspace, by been allowed go through Irish airspace.
Britain, gave money to Ireland after 2008 that it owed. Both our governments agreed to forgive each others debts, and Britain owed us more so paid us the balance. Later Ireland borrowed from Britain and those loans have already been repaid (Ireland actually tried to make final payment ahead of schedule, but Britain refused and asked us to stick to the timetable). Also, given your country’s current economic situation, I wouldn’t go starting any trade wars if I were you.
Looking at the numbers, there doesn’t seem to be very much substance to the “state of your economy” thing applied only to the UK.
That seems to be an artefact of the EU’s Yellow Press, and the Rump Remainer lobby who just can’t move on from losing the Brexit vote being a bit desperate to find reasons to do down their own country.
Comparing with our closest EU comparator, France, the UK GDP was around 6-7% larger than France’s in 2014, and that is still the case in 2021.
Comparing Ireland to the UK… The conversation as ended already. Chalk and cheese comes to mind…
Any “real” politician knows that any attempt to bully US companies would be met with a counterattack by the US that would bring down any UK government that tried it. But, go ahead, run for Parliament. Let’s see how far you get with your platform.
That would be a sensible step.
Love the “Irish” F16 mock up. Doubt it would be on the cards though.
It’s not actually even close, but other than that there is a possibility for some type of fighter, depends on what future governments decide.
Ireland will never own fighters.
There’s a lot of things that Ireland would never do if you were to talk to people in the 80s or 90s, and yet we did. Are fighters an immediate must have, not really there’s other areas first, long term… Who knows.
What are those things we did? Because Ireland is no better defended now than in the 90’s. Probably worse off actually.
Didn’t mean in defence, and no we are pretty much at the same level we were then in capabilities.
They can fully afford it and a leasing contract with Saab over a 10-15 year lease is reasonably priced per year, based on other such contracts (Czechia, Hungary). That’s how the Irish gov sells it to the electorate.
And in 10 plus years that might happen, or at least be the time that a reasonable case to sustain them could be made, right now if Saab delivered them they would just sit on the runway. The AC has zero capacity to sustain a fighter squadron at this time and would need again a decade worth of investment (including most likely an entirely new airbase) before they could start looking at fighters.
Training is included in the lease. Irish pilots would train in Sweden and then delivery would happen when training and infrastructure in an airbase is set up.
You are right in that this will not happen quick but it’s not an impossibility.
Shannon would be a great airbase.
Saab losing out to the F-35 in Canada maybe very approachable at the moment for such deals.
I should really work as a sales guy for Saab. Lol
You do get that the AC is less than 1k manpower in total right? It’s not just pilots that you’d be short in trying to generate a fighter squadron, not too mention even doing so would be pointless before areas like the Primary Radar are acquired. Hence why the Commission made it clear that LoA3 would need to be built off investment to get to LoA2 first. Shannon has more than enough space and if the AC wasn’t the AC it should already be used as a base, but of the three services the AC has the worst “corporate culture”… Read more »
Don’t get me started on the left and the left left wingers.
I agree with you. It’s all part of great challenge with lots of moving parts. Just offering a possible solution for at least one of the services.
And if we were a nation running a legacy airframe then it would be a no brainier to go for a Saab leasing agreement. Instead we are starting from scratch and even within the AC demands alone is it the first priority?
The air corps have their work cut out for them before fighters for sure. Strategic air lift comes to mind.
Yep, whether it’s just the couple of used 295s that were offered, or something more, it’s a basic hole that needs filling first. There’s also the need for more helicopters, particularly if the plan for splitting up the Rangers happens.
Even the CoDF Report only recommended 2 more helos (8 total). That’s absolutely pathetic and will not allow for a dedicated helo capability for the Wing.
For LoA2 which is again pretty much the upper limit of what the AC can absorb until it like the NS can be increased in establishment.
Maybe Spitfires
Had Seafires back in the day, think theres still one flying in the UK.
Fine, the day the ROI does something to “defend” itself is the day the world will end. Free loaders, always will be.
UK not protecting Irish airspace? Who you trying to kid, they are doing exactly that! Love Ireland, spend time in Ireland, have family in Ireland, love the friendly Irish people generally, but your government?
Hmmm. Ireland has a lot of problems to solve first with its existing establishment, such as the Navy being something like 20% understaffed (~900 vs ~1100 requirement the last time I looked), and having lost 200 people in the last year or two. AIUI that is far worse than the Royal Navy position has been, and in the UK we have been concerned for years. And insufficient resources to police fishing (they have to keep borrowing vessels from other countries), plus the political issues around the resentment at Irish Fishing Stocks being half-inched by other EU countries. (I suspect that… Read more »
The fishing industry and its workforce is a political minnow in Irish politics and economics (hence why the farmers got priority during those ascension talks), and it’s likely to grow smaller and smaller (and from a former fishing town that’s not a bad thing, the average fisherman makes farmers look responsible), it’s a “tail wagging the dog” to base defence investment on. Moreover the fisheries patrols is one of the operational issues causing the Navy’s retention problem, it’s not their job it’s an SLA and they are fairly fed up doing it. As for “joint” patrols with the RN, it’s… Read more »
It may be technically possible to claim that the UK is not protecting Irish airspace but if we’re not doing it, then no-one is, as the Irish have plainly not got the wherewithal.
Not sure how RoI are still getting away with only investing a billion euro on their defence. It should be 3 or 4X that number already. They are either happy to sponge off the US/ UK/ NATO or don’t want to raise the budget and risk any of it going to the UK.
Still they are happy to push forward with their desire to see a proper fully formed EU armed forces though.
You do get that most equipment would be U.K. sourced? Or does bit of reality intrude on your imagination?
Ireland isn’t in any military alliance so isn’t required to have any minimum spending on defence, so therefore it all comes down to domestic politics and defence spending isn’t a vote winner.
Explain your reasoning to why you think RoI would specifically look to buy UK equipment.
Is admitting you’ve been sponging off the US and UK a vote winner? Is admitting you don’t have the capability to monitor Russian ships in your area a vote winner?
Or do these truths intrude on your imagination.
The Republic has traditionally bought from the U.K. since 1922, the majority of all naval ships were either RN second hand or actually built in the U.K. (ie the majority of the current fleet), same for much of the army equipment and the AC, that’s not hard to look up if you wanted to, so the idea that somehow buying from the U.K. is an issue is laughable. As for the limitations of the capabilities of the DF, as I said, it’s not a political issue, hell a solid block of the opposition would prefer to cut the spending even… Read more »
Looking at this very two dimensionally, and seem to be somewhat bitter on the subject. The RoI are pushing the EU to set up a fully formed armed forces. So who do you think they would look to secure closer arms deals with. I would even say they would get more US equipment over UK. I’m looking at this in a purely pragmatic way. RoI see’s the EU as a closer partner then the UK. Buying second hand equipment from the UK is beside the point in upgrading to new hardware and the EU specifically doesn’t want to work with… Read more »
The Republic isn’t pushing anything of the sort, it barely involves itself in the few PESCO projects we signed up for and ignore the majority, even ones we should be involved in. Long term, yes most likely the U.K. won’t be the go to supplier for defence procurement, either larger scale supply chains from the likes of the US or the easier and less costly use of fellow EU industries compared with the U.K., but that’s not something that the U.K. will really give a feck about anyway. As to any future fantasy EU force… As ever I won’t hold… Read more »
1 June 22Leo Varadkar confident he could secure a Yes vote for Ireland to join EU army Leo Varadkar has insisted it is “possible” to win a referendum in Ireland to join a European defence force but says there is no political support to join Nato. “I do think it would be possible for us to win a referendum on joining a European defence (force) but I think that’s why it would be important for us to be a part of designing it alongside countries like Cyprus, Austria and Malta, who also don’t plan to join Nato,” he said. “We… Read more »
No mate, I just know my nation better than you, Varadkar was stating his position and some in FG support it, but they are only 1 of 3 parties in government and one is against it and FF is split (with Martin contradicting that position only days later), FG are likely to be in opposition next government and by then he’s not likely to be leader of it so who knows what the FG position might be the next time they are in government. SF likely with FF will be in government and their policy is whatever is popular (with… Read more »
Your nation? Therein lies most of your problem.
Fact is you are just pretending this situation isn’t happening when it actually is.
…
Im not allowed to refer to Ireland as my nation, you being one of its citizens? What do you call the nation you are a citizen of?
I’m not pretending anything, I’m well aware of the limitations of the DF, a good chunk of the reasons why they are there, the politics that have caused the issues and the political costs and willingness to change that.
Given that I’m guessing you aren’t Irish, I’m going to take a bet I understand Ireland better than you.
‘I just know my nation better than you’ – not when you refer to it like that, no. Insinuating it isn’t also mine? You shouldn’t make assumptions.
Just a sad bitter person really aren’t you. When faced with the facts you feel the need to find a tangent and start peddling whataboutery.
Grow up.
Your opening post referred to Ireland as “They”, strange phrasing to use if you were talking about your own nation and government?
Strange if you are Irish that you were concerned about sourcing defence material from the U.K. and didn’t seem to know that historically we always have done so, including the largest purchases by cost in defence investment from the U.K.
Also strange putting weight into Varadkars comments without any mention of the political reality and likely future governments positions.
Yeah, I’m still calling BS on you.
How else would one refer to it. Wouldn’t refer to any government as ‘mine’. Very bitter aren’t you? Bet you are one of these IRA types. Didn’t have anything to do with Donegal did you laddie?
Too many foreigners getting on your nerves now?
Clown.
Ah bless, you really are a little troll aren’t you, sick though to be making fun of dead kids. Back under your bridge now.
You really are an IRA type aren’t you. So concerned with what Sinn Fein are doing too. Shame there are so many like you about these days. Trouble ahead.
Has the boss explained why they did it yet?
Me being one of its citizens, forgive the typo.
Talking to yourself isn’t a good look.
Looks like Ireland has fully joined up to 4 PESCO projects as of July. This makes 5 in total they are members of and observers for another 5 projects.
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4a625-minister-coveney-welcomes-dail-approval-of-defence-forces-participation-in-new-pesco-projects/
This shows an initiative to improve their security situation. The Irish public’s view on defence and its importance has also changed over the last 6 months.
Just adding to my point with Mark then, so why direct that at me?
Just an fyi for all is all. Mark is right though that half of Irish political parties are weirdly isolationist and anti military. Changes in Government will change defence policy.
That isn’t the point I was trying to make, trying to talk about what is actually happening now. I wasn’t alluding to past or future. I was trying to make clear what they are actually doing and trying to do right now. I understand how isolationist it is and how anti-military everything seems to be but what is actually happening points to more military involvement and more spending. The other point is they (sorry Mark, I know how offensive that word is to you) shouldn’t be pushing for greater involvement in EU defence policy and to set-up an armed forces… Read more »
That doesn’t really show the real picture to be honest, yes we are on that list of projects, but you are talking about basically photo ops and empty words, there’s little actual investment or engagement with the ones that we are signed up to and plenty of political resistance from the main party of the likely next government. Coveney is likely out of Defence by December, who replaces him and whether they have enough pull at the cabinet to sustain any increased investment is an open question. Assuming that the switch happens and the coalition remains stable that’s basically another… Read more »
That’s some top notch delusional fantasies you have going on.
Nothing to see here. Everything that is actually happening is a lie. The house isn’t on fire. This is fine.
You should get your nurse to check your medication.
No need, your Mrs did it for me last night. But that isn’t really the medication you would be referring to.
Told me she is sick and tired of all your anti-foreigner Irish Nationalist diatribes. So have fun with that.
Funny how you complained about going off on a tangent and whataboutry, and yet so far you have made fun of dead kids and their families, somehow decided that I’m a Shinner supporting the IRA, and that I’m anti immigrant, based on nothing but your tangents and whataboutry.
All without displaying much knowledge of the DF, historic Defence decisions and investments or an actual awareness of the Politics involved in any of it…
YOU should have kept it on topic then shouldn’t you, petal. Can’t complain about what you started.
‘All without displaying much knowledge of the DF, historic Defence decisions and investments or an actual awareness of the Politics involved in any of it…’ – pretty much describes everything you have said to be honest. I’ve been trying to talk about what is happening right now and all you care about is talking about the past and then when the IRA get in. Try living in the present and realise what is going on right now.
What is happening right now then? Go through the current steps by the DOD and DF post Commission, and what steps might happen in the next two years, what priorities and limitations have been identified?
Or you know post anything that isn’t rubbish.
I’ve tried educating you already you just don’t want to hear it. Stick your fingers in your ears and keep humming The Wolfe Tones.
You have posted jokes about dead children…
Thats about your level.
Ironic coming from the IRA…
All good points but they have joined which a sight better than a year ago. Progress
We joined at least a couple when PESCO was first announced from memory back in 2017, but again that was more “optics” than heavy investment. Given SFs position on it what future involvement Ireland might have will depend on who they are in coalition with after the next election.
The EU will leverage pressure on whatever gov that comes to power either way to step up. Even SF will have a problem dodging that.
Membership and investment in the PESCO projects aren’t a requirement and are optional for all nations with plenty of issues even for those treating them seriously, add in the Treaty opt out on any defence/security matters and I’m not sure there’s any leverage to pressurise an Irish Government tbh.
How long you going to keep up your delusions?
I have great chats with an Austrian friend of mine about these issues of neutrality and what not. Lol
No point trying to reason with Mark. I’ve tried before but they just won’t accept reality.
Joking aside, our friends in ROI are a free independent nation who make their own decisions. Whatever decision is taken the UK should work hand in hand with ROI for mutual benefit.
Remember the RNLI operates from ROI to the benefit of all seafarers,