In a recent article, Irish Examiner Defence Correspondent Sean O’Riordan examined whether or not Ireland is becoming a type of British protectorate, asking “can we keep pretending we are neutral when experts must think it’s patently obvious we are not?”.
Sean said the following in an article for the Irish Examiner here.
“A few years ago it was revealed that the Government had reached a secret agreement with Britain that the Royal Air Force (RAF) would protect Irish skies, as we didn’t have any fighter jets to do the job. Nice of big brother next door to do this for us, but then again there was some self-preservation involved on the British side.
After 9/11, it became apparent that terrorists would and could hijack commercial airlines to carry out attacks. The likelihood of them hijacking a Europe-bound commercial airliner over the Atlantic and crashing it into Croke Park or Leinster House was minute, if non-existent. More likely a target would be Downing Street or Buckingham Palace.
Heavy British military presence off Irish coast
The British knew we didn’t have the fighters to intercept and shoot hijacked planes out of the sky. They therefore offered to protect our skies in a deal from which the Defence Forces were excluded, even though the RAF asked for their input. This lack of consultation between the Government and its own military baffled the RAF. It also baffled the Defence Forces and questions are still being asked today about their exclusion from the talks.
Now, it has emerged that the British navy is planning to launch a ship or ships with the capability to monitor threats off the Irish coast to data information cables running under the Atlantic which connect North America with Europe. These cables have global economic significance, transmitting millions of messages between banks, businesses, and ordinary people each day. Cutting them would lead to international chaos.”
You can read the rest here, I recommend you do as it’s very informative.
What’s that phrase involving Sherlock??
AA
It’s Elementary dear chap….
Good read.
That Russian naval exercise off the coast of Ireland at the start of the year was held directly over where a load of cables converge .
And they have a very capable sub surface force to ”tap” into them too.
Until independence the British North Atlantic cables were all controlled from Ballinskelligs in County Kerry.
Yep, the IRA once managed to take the majority of the transatlantic cables down from an attack.
Did they? Can’t remember that
My great uncle was in charge of the network between 1914 and 1916. He made his headquarters at Ballinskellig, and had a platoon of soldiers to guard it. No attack happened in his time!
Well yeah, the IRA didn’t exist in that period so it would be hard to have had an attack. From memory (I’d have to dig out the sources) it might have been towards the end of the Civil War.
The IRA did exist during the war of independence.
Of course they did… the War of Independence came post WW1 in 1919, so a post in 1914 to 1916 wouldn’t matter.
Who’s going to pay for it?
Modern day foreign interests and spheres of influence aren’t controlled through imperial edict these days, but through measures like these, and through corporations
😆
This from the country that offered safe haven to terrorists and allowed operations against the North from their turf? One answer to them but it is not a polite one.
But of a strong comment. Going back some amount of years to even suggest that kind of thing. Anyway what matters is here and now. Ireland is always going to be a close neighbour and the better we get along the more beneficial it is for everyone.
Maybe chisel the north of Ireland away from the south and just let i drift away
Closer than you think. Millions of years ago NI and the South were on different mega continents a world apart. They have collided after millions of years of continental drift. 😂
https://www.gsi.ie/en-ie/geoscience-topics/geology/Pages/Geology-of-Ireland.aspx
Did the normal adventurous training in north west Scotland. Great time and the night skies mind blowing – to extent that did not need torch to wend way back after a visit to the ‘evening HQ’. Learnt that whole area to west of Great Glen was geologically America. Always wondered if that area of NW Albion somehow felt aggrieved.
‘Spose the latter Clearances helped put the world to rights?
The news is even worse. The SW- NE continental diagonal between NI and the South extends across to separate England and Scotland 😂
You couldn’t make it up.
Geography? Did you see any bear’s?
Certainly not behind us.
👍
Depends on your experiences and perspective.
And age😝
Are you going to pretend that the U.K. also weren’t up to tricks in the Troubles, between collusion with Loyalists to having known Loyalists in the UDR…
Save the politics for another website please
So the first comment is fine but pointing out the issues of uK forces in NI is somehow too political?
Nice double standard there.
Mark, you’re smart enough to know how the internet works mate. Its not generally populated by the open minded types. Pick a team and throw as much shoit at the ‘other lot’ as you can. Its sad but its where we’re at.
I didn’t think it would be too long before it got tribal again Andy.
Ha ho….
As a wider point, the Irish Republic clearly is protected by the UK, it’s a simple fact…
I’m sure that doesn’t go down well with some folks in the Republic, but if you don’t like it, put your hand in your pocket and pay for your own defence!
Trinity House, which covers all Lighthouses for the UK also looks after and pays upkeep for Lighthouses in the Irish Republic it seems that not only do we keep the skies clear for Eire but also Sea navigation and safety
That deal ended over a decade ago, if not longer and was a relic of the 1922 agreement when Dublin argued and won that the majority of the traffic was bound for GB so it was a benefit for the U.K. to sustain the navigational markers.
Cheers Mark it wS just something I remembered from when I was in the Navy how at the time we were paying for their Navigational safety
I think the agreement was for the capital upkeep while the current spending of the Irish lighthouses was paid for by Ireland, I think to be honest it was just one of those things that got lost in the accounting until someone finally remembered the legacy of it., think it was in the 00s that it was changed.
why all the fuss ,southern irish are still allowed to join our armed forces in their thousands ,why not rejoin the kingdom bigger means more powerful
Why should we want them
Because the overwhelming majority of the Irish public have zero interest in being part of the U.K.
Everything is politics, though. I suppose that, were it not for this world’s illustrious leaders – always the first to survive, we might just get along……🤔
But then we’ve have no warcraft to discuss😐
Loyalists in a British Army regiment ??
Now that’s hardly a novelty is it ? There was I thinking it was a pre requisite for joining . How old fashioned of me .
You do get that in the NI context Loyalist means those connected to terrorists…
Well , as a half Irish former British Officer who served there , I think I do get the context . We generally referred to those you describe as “ so called Loyalist paramilitaries “ . Loyalists to me describe one element of the political and community divide in NI. I had a couple of these under my command and I assure you they had nothing to do with terrorism and no tolerance of it from whichever side .
Those would be Unionists, Loyalists generally has the more direct connection to paramilitaries, just the same as the difference between Nationalists and Republicans on the other side.
We’re obviously going to disagree here . Nationalists and Republicans ? The former , a person that believes in a united Ireland . The latter ,someone who believes in the concept of the Republic of Ireland in its current form . Neither of these theses were part of the Provisional IRA’s agenda who were prescribed in both countries. I do not accept the link between Loyalists and Unionists . They are loyal to the Union . They took their opportunity to secede from the nascent Irish Free State at its conception and that right has been protected ever since .
Either way Irish politics aren’t a subject for on this site
The politics I mentioned was in NI, therefore it’s domestic British politics not Irish politics, but sure continue dancing on the head of that.
All I smell here is a Provo sympathiser. Jog on.
Let’s leave the subject there. And move back to the real world
Not even close just someone who acknowledges that nobody in the Troubles have their hands clean. But sure if that’s easier than reality fair enough.
I personally think the real tragedy of the current situation in Northern Ireland is the assembly that refuse to work together …
You can lead a bloody horse to water but you can’t make it drink, bloody pathetic.
All they do is argue, argue, argue … At least it’s their problem to sort out, but the citizens of Northern Ireland deserve a lot better….
Not being any kind of apologist but the UK has hosted it’s share of undesirables over the years too….(General Pinochet for example). We shouldn’t let a bad history full of injustices by all sides prevent a better future.
Stuff the Irish they bring nothing to the table and if anything else they are an unnecessary drain on our own resources.
Yeah they basically have been
Ireland relying on UK military capabilities? Not exactly a unique situation.
Similar comments could be made about the NZ reliance on Australia, or Canada and the USA (other global comparisons can be made too).
Obviously those nations mentioned above will never match the capabilities, or Defence budgets, of their ‘big’ neighbour, but they should at least step up to the plate with a ‘fair’ percentage of their GDP spent on National Defence.
Will that ever happen? Not holding my breath.
But IRL even if Ireland did spend 2% of GDP on defence would they actually have enough budget to do anything meaningful @ £350Bn as opposed to UK @ £2.35Tn? That doesn’t get you to having a meaningful fighter force or navy? It might get you a few T31 frigates style ships?
The Irish economy is very, very small and it is totally propped up by its discounted corporate tax structure which, as well as being a nice and relatively cheap county to live in, means that outfits like Google and Amazon use it as their EU tax base for certain activities.
The high standard of living is a bit of a mirage in those terms as the core economy doesn’t make or earn that much at all and depends on low taxes as a result of Big Corp spending money. So a lot of the high value stuff is very Dublin based and very hospitality, services and construction driven.
UK GDP at $3.1trn / £2.6trn according to the latest World Bank figures. Leaving France in the dust
I was using the 2020 numbers. So sounds about right.
Whilst we have a buffoon in charge of BoE talking down the economy people won’t realise that our economic fundamentals are actually better than EU aggregated or US.
Now fuel prices are dropping inflation will start to flatten CPI as fuel was a big direct part of the basket as well as an indirect cost feeding through.
Wow you’re a bit too brainy for.on here 📚
Ha, ha! Very good.
2022 stats from IMF put UK at $3.4tn and France at $2.9tn. However, it’s likely that as both these figures were made using current (July) exchange rates, both may slightly increase/decrease if the GBP and EUR increase/decrease against the dollar. There’s even worse news for France though; our GDP was about $3.1tn last year; meaning at least we’ve had growth and, in fact, we are on track to beat the $3.4tn prediction for this year. France was at $2.9 last year and is on track to not meet the $2.9tn projection for 2022. What this says is that, while France had a pleasant, over 10% increase in nominal GDP last year, that was purely a bounce back from the pandemic collapse and that this growth will not be sustained. Although our growth in 2022 is also completely incomparable to 2021, we appear to still be going very quickly. In other news, the UK tech sector value ($1.2tn) has now overtaken the Chinese ($1.1tn) thanks to the Chinese tech crackdown.
France? I thought we were talking about the Irish.
Well, there’s the British. And then… I don’t know really. Heard lands inhabited by dragons and men with heads of dogs?
Best place to leave a Frenchie
Mate, I think you’ve missed the point.
I clearly said those nations will never match the capabilities of their ‘big’ neighbours, true?
But if they did spend 2% of GDP (for example), they could at least ‘maximise’ their contribution to ‘joint’ defence and security.
For example in my part of the world, in Australia we currently spend 2.1%, our Kiwi cousins across the ditch spend 1.5%.
If the Kiwis matched the percentage, that could potentially mean an additional Frigate or two, or additional P-8A or additional new C-130Js for example.
Bottom line is, the bigger neighbour/partner will always bring ‘more’ to the table, but if the smaller neighbour maximised their contribution, it’s adds to the overall contribution for joint security.
I agree.
The smaller neighbours should do things like P8 and mid level frigates in depth and leave the really expensive pointy stuff like fighters to the big neighbours.
There isn’t a lot of point in Ireland having a really big army as they are not expeditionary. But some air assets and naval assets make sense.
Agree. Denmark is about the size of RoI population wise. Even with the modest defence spending in Denmark, well below the NATO target, it buys us an air force of F16s (being replaced with F35A) and Merlin helicopters, a navy centered on 3 frigates and two support ships in addition to the coastal forces of smaller ships, as well as an army with Leopard 2A7, anti tank helicopters and Caesar artillery.
A fraction of this spending would probably be enough for RoI to secure at least some EEZ and air zone enforcement.
Looking at the Commissions report that’s give or take €3 billion.
Mate, yes Denmark is a good example of a nation with a ‘smallish’ population, but with a reasonable Defence force that can contribute to group defence.
In my part of the world a good comparison would be NZ and Singapore, similar populations, but a vastly different defence capability.
Yes geography plays a big part, it would be interesting to see the NZ attitude to Defence spending if they were closer to the action (or potential future action).
We used to donate the occasional frigate to the kiwis maybe a T23 could be sent to them.
It’s a good point and from an Irish perspective, what would their priorities in defence spending be. They are after all a very long way from anywhere. With friendly nations on all side. For them it’s really only ever going to be constabulary, maritime survalance, cyber security.
Ireland is right on the GIUK Gap.
Yes but the question is what does that mean for Ireland, it’s a neutral nation that’s not in NATO. The GIUK gap is important to the U.K and other NATO members..but and for Ireland the question would be so what ?
Ireland is not neutral – see what they did in WW2 – at best it tries (but fails due to its embedment in Europe) to be non-aligned.
I would say it would make sense for Ireland:
1 – Get enough sailors for the *current* patrol force.
2 – Get enough intermediate fast jets and other systems to protect their airspace – especially as Dublin sells itself as a low-cost airline-tax-dodging operation for travellers.
3 – Specialise in undersea cable protection (=submarines) and fishery protection. The Chinese far waters fleet is coming, and the French etc are already here – Ireland having been mugged by the European Commission in 1973 as the UK and Denmark were. Norway walked away.
1. Connected to the Irish public service pay agreements, very hard to change with every other Union in the way.
2. Primary Radar is about it.
3. Nobody got “mugged”, a political decision was made that the fishing sector was economically unimportant in comparison to the Afro sector so that’s where the Irish government focused on.
If the deal was to protect against commercial airliners, surely a Irish based prop plane will reach it well before a fast jet from the uk. Protecting Ireland again russian attacks is a different story and realistically would never happen, as why would they attack Ireland rather than going directly at the UK.
Ireland is a softer target on which to build a forward base. I do wonder if there was ever a threat Ireland could be invaded, if NATO or UK would invade first to beef up defences.
Not very realistic, any threat would have to go through the whole of Europe first, giving them plenty of land bases. No one is going to only attack the UK and leave their forces miles away from home with huge number of NATO allies between them and the UK.
Sorry – prop jobs cannot get anywhere near the height and speed of a commercial airline. Interception would be impossible.
A direct attack is unlikely but they could dismiss you as collateral damage when attacking the UK. It looks a bit fantastical but their crazy defence minister simulated a nuclear created tsunami obliteration of the UK with the graphics displaying Ireland getting hit first. They didn’t even mention antagonism towards Ireland but clearly gave no fucks about them
I have to say that is a brilliant plan. Ignoring the cruelness of it and assuming it would work, they would effectively wipe out the UK and it’s ability to fight, without conmainating the land, so they could move in and take the natural resources of the country afterwards.
Yes. Recall Norway thought it could export its fish as contribution to the EU brotherhood of nations, like cars from Germany say, but advised just as it was due to sign that the brotherhood had decided its fish were already theirs.
That’s really not a true picture of the Irish economy, but that’s a whole other area.
True. Near half of the Irish economy is just dodgy accounting that makes it look like a quarter of Apple’s revenue is in Ireland. Which it just isn’t.
It really isn’t but don’t let facts get in the way of a rant.
I’ll leave the Irish economy analysis aside, except to note that much of it is based on particular sectors heavily targeted by Irish Govts since the 1950s / 1960s such as pharma and medical products – to the extent that eg in Pharma the Irish export more in absolute terms than the UK does – despite our economy being 5-6x larger. They have specialised successfully. The current 2021 Irish GDP was $500 billion.
They are perfectly capable of affording realistic defence should they choose to do, which currently they have chosen not to do.
Countries with GDPs smaller than Ireland which have serious armed forces inuclude Austria, Denmark, Finland, Czechia and many more.
In those terms that is true.
They could do a lot more for their GDP. But it would not be full spectrum and would take a while to build up due to lack of past investment.
The large growth in the sectors you mention is due to investment tax breaks paid for by corporation tax from……
The problem with UK Pharma is that every CFO who turns up goes ‘how do we cut overhead: let’s cut R&D Headcount……’ results are inevitable with a culled pipeline. Got very bad in the early 00’s and Cabinet Office started to take an interest and then it got better.
If they had even a small wing of gripens or F-16’s to perform air policing patrols in THEIR OWN AIRSPACE, it would take a load off the UK.
Maybe but how many years would it take to generate a worthwhile force and would it be a 24-7 QRA or a Mon-Fri 9-5 token effort?
Taking into account politics, funding, infrastructure, training etc, about 10 to 15 years.
Would those Irish jets shoot down an airliner headed west where there is definite intelligence that airliner is aimed at a UK target? Ireland being neutral.
The UKADR is so big I don’t think it relieves the RAF of much, how often are our Typhoons actually in Irish airspace?
And what about AAR?
The Republic of Ireland is neutral and unaligned by the determination of its own Parliament, the Dáil. I cannot see that changing.
I didn’t suggest that it would change?
I did, however, suggest that they might want to be able to defend themselves or at least deter some range of threats.
The quid pro quo being they bought some P8 and some ASW capable mid range frigates to look for Russian and in future Chinese subs and the UK looks after airspace?
Then the Irish media should stop boasting at how rich we are ….. can’t have it both ways.
If Belgium can have a reasonable armed forces then so should Ireland. Maybe some supposed Irish Americans will chip in and buy them a jeep
The difference is that NZ, Canada and Australia are not neutral, they are military allies and whilst they don’t have militaries on a par with US or even the UK, They contribute to regional and global security and mutual interests whereas the Irish are not allies and don’t contribute. They luxuriate in the military deterrence provided by others but make a moral virtue of not contributing anything in return.
Those countries are aligned, not hiding behind someone else.
The article explains perfectly. Self preservation.
We are not defending Irish skies, it is in our own interests to be able to access those skies to augment our own western flank, not defend Dublin.
Whether the Irish spend more on defence is entirely up to them.
We are not defending them.
Monitoring undersea cables that carry the backbone of the worlds internet and phone traffic is not defending Ireland either. They’re welcome to help in this if they choose, as again it is in our own interests to do so.
The question this well written article raises for me is simple…
Ireland is part of the EU, where are they?
The EU isn’t a military alliance.
True however, ”Article 42 of the Treaty of Lisbon strengthens the solidarity between EU countries in dealing with external threats by introducing a mutual defence clause (Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union).” Basically put, ”if an EU Country is the victim of armed aggression on its territory (Armed naval force within its EEZ is classed as such by the EU) the other EU countries have an obligation to aid and assist it by all means in their power”.
(the above is taken from the EU Parliament website).
Whilst not a defence organisation like NATO, and besides the above, the EU has taken the WEU 1954 agreement as one of its own policies and as of June 2011, replaced it fully.
These are defence of the EU questions that the EU should be addressing…
Article 7 would require the Irish government to invoke it, that’s not going to happen.
Sadly, You are most likely correct…
It would take them to act…
The Treaty of Lisbon (Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union). bud.
That doesn’t make the EU a military alliance, that is a defence clause that requires member states to invoke it.
Is that not the case with all alliances…? Even A.5 of NATO requires you to report it to the Security Council.
Not going to happen (I know) but you’d be lying to yourself if you say they wouldn’t. Let’s see them not invoke the clause if there was Bears bombing schools and 100 T-72’s rolling down the streets of Dublin…
Most members, and the Gnomes of Brussels, seem to want it to be a military alliance.
There are goals for a couple of things to be done by 2030.
Pretty much in the same level as commercial Nuclear fusion, just around the corner honestly.
But wants to be (at least from the French perspective),
Yes the article is accurate but is then spoilt by the headline which is there to bait people into posting comments about how outrageous it is that Ireland depends on the U.K. for defence. 🤷🏻♂️
I fully agree that one should not view it as UK picking up the responsibility (and thereby cost) of extending coverage and protection over Ireland’s airspace and coast/territorial waters/EEZ, and it is good to see people like you seeing the bigger picture.
That said, the article does raise other points – first and foremost, that of Ireland’s neutrality, in the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. We’ve already seen how it has pushed Finland and even neutral Sweden into NATO’s sphere, and I think the article is also touching on whether it is right for the Irish to benefit from such protections from the UK while still proclaiming neutrality. And this is an introspective question, given the author and publication are both Irish.
Rather than comparisons to Canada or NZ, I think a better parallel will be Swiss or Austrian neutrality – neutrality that is easy to proclaim when buffered from the Russian bear by several countries, a luxury that Ireland does not have as it has experienced airspace incursions and Russian exercises in their EEZ.
Setting aside the discussion of their neutrality, even if Ireland do choose to ramp up their defence spending and acquire naval and aerial platforms, I think they should not fall into the Taiwanese trap of a small number of high-cost and flashy platforms, but instead ensure they have their basics in place. This would probably mean corvette or “light” Type 31-esque frigates with a decent radar fitout and probably some anti-ship and anti-air capabilities.
On the other hand, the article mentions:
In this regard, I feel it is better to partner with one of the capable services (USN/RN) in terms of sonar monitoring, rather than try to build up such a nice capability with such a small defence force.
The latter part of this article points out this little gem that elicited a chuckle out of me:
So the Republic of Ireland is not aligned to even the non-aligned group!
Note to George – thanks for sharing the interesting excerpt, as well as the link to the entire article, it made for interesting reading.
Point of fact the tender has already gone out for refitting the P60s with sonars, ideally will be refitted within the next couple of years as they come in for their yearly docking. There is some issues with its placement due to the hull configuration of the class and sea state conditions so we will wait and see.
Ah, nice. I don’t follow IDF news, so didn’t know this was even planned for the Becketts. Any idea who is providing the sonar – Thales, BAE, or someone else?
Still, effective sonar use is a skill that is honed with a lot of practice.
Do you believe the Irish Navy can sustain the skills they build up? I’m assuming they will turn to either the US or UK for assistance at the outset which will be gladly provided, but I’m more concerned about their ability to retain the institutional knowledge, given what I’ve heard of crew retention problems.
No from what I’ve read they have only gone out for tender on it, maybe a trawl through the submissions to the Commission might flag who is interested, I mean for example Leonardo basically submitted their sales package in their submission for everything, the other major contractors might have as well.
As to the manpower issue, it’s a significant issue without question, the DF has been screwed by the other PS Unions for decades and the nature of the pay agreements makes it hard to change. On the other hand one of the accepted outcomes of the Commission is doubling the personnel of the NS to circa 2k and doubling crewing the ships by the end of the decade, whether that happens who knows.
After that it gets a bit confusing with the P50s wearing out faster than expected so new hulls will be needed by then.
👍
Brain fart on your part. What a load of speculative rubbish.
Neutrality is a nice position to be able to stand for but In reality you have to have a military force capable of defending your interests against everyone else. If you aren’t in the defence clubs you will have to do it alone.
Yeah neutrality in WW2 didn’t work too well for Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, etc, etc…
I’d hardly call Russia ‘neutral’ given it was working with Nazi Germany to invade and slice-up Poland, invade and occupy the Baltics states, and waged attacked neutral Finland.
And it defo didn’t ‘work’ for them given they lost 30million of their population and were stuck with communism for another 40+ plus years. At least the Germans got rid of their Nazi’s, whereas they still hold power in Russia to this day.
It did work for Ireland, the subject of this thread.
Not the Germans weren’t interested in it. 🤷🏻♂️
And laughably although the Irish Republic made a song a dance about being a neutral sovereign state, they’d agreed that at the first sign of a German invasion the British Army could come over the border from the North and defend them.
But given you know f@ck all about what’s happening in the news I expect your knowledge of history to be even more deficient.
No, it didn’t really. Despite being declared neutral, Irish shipping sustained huge losses to Luftwaffe and U boat strikes. Aggressor countries don’t really respect neutrality, you of all people should have noticed that by now.
It only worked because germany could not get through britain.
Yaaaaaaawn
Have you never heard that Germany made a surprise attack on neutral USSR. Over 20 million russians died.
How are you calling this neutrality working.
Jeezo, not evening an article about Scottish ship building or the SNP and some people can’t help themselves. Hope you feel better for that Jay, its not shown you up to be petty at all, no sirree…..
Clearly, Russia does not respect the neutrality of Ireland. I am thinking the least Ireland could do is invest in a small force of Corvettes with good Anti-ship Missiles and a helicopter for anti-sub warfare.
Honestly, i don’t think that would be number 1 on the list for Ireland. They are a small country, if it came to war, they would rely on the UK’s self interest of not having an occupied state on their border to defend them. The U.K. will soon (5 years I believe is the current aim) hypersonic or high supersonic anti-ship missiles and already has the world’s premier anti-sub chopper duo. First Ireland should probably focus on defensive item; such as air defence systems or coastal batteries.
I am with JohnN in this. Denmark actually has 5 frigates. 3 AAW frigates & 2, I suppose you could call them, support frigates. No navy anywhere’s is going to disregard any of them as irrelevant. As an island nation, Ireland has no actual war fighting ships. They do have a few OPV, but it would be a stretch to call any of them a Corvette. NZ has a pacifist government, but still fields 2 actual GP frigates (ie 127mm main gun, 20 AAM, helicopter launched AShM, ASW helicopter) & their Air Force has P8 MPA on order. Sad as it is, Ireland has become irrelevant.
When in defence has Ireland ever been anything else? The reality is that pretty much until the 90s the economy was too small to sustain anything remotely “high end”. Unfortunately that means there’s huge inbuilt barriers in the public and political circles towards changing that.
You don’t necessarily need to be “high end” to be relevant. The “lowest end” military unit in NATO has to be the Canadian Rangers. Yet no-one regards them as irrelevant. Find a niche & exploit it if that’s all you can afford.
I think the anti-English rhetoric of the Irish politicians can be seen for what it is…empty and also opportunistic. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury in England of forgetting about Irish defence as it affects us…shame the Irish aren’t more grateful….but then again it’s easy to complain these days about things that happened a century ago…It’s the same with Scotland theoretically they can be independent but it will be the English picking up the tab for their defence….Everyone wants to suck from the teet that is the English but they want to complain how awful we are at the same time…
Pish! 🖖
Well the truth does hurt they say….The Irish can’t claim to be really independent when the English protect….must be embarrassing for Irish politicians to be protected by the English ergo the lack of consultation with the Irish defence force (or should I say Irish coastguard because that’s what it is and even then it can’t perform that function well).
Aye, bad weather moving north into Scotland you say? must be the English weather moving north!
LOL…don’t say that as Nicola Sturgeon will want to fleece the English again to pay for rain damage…what will she do when the English tax payer doesn’t cough up in the future if she wins her much belated independence referendum….one does wonder….I did read an article recently where the SNP had hushed up Scotlands role in the slave trade and blamed those wee nasty little sassenachs….
Yes an independent Scotland’s GDP, would be small as they have a small population. But to extrapolate what they would or would not spend their money on is not really possible.
Please stop encouraging him.
They will not have any dosh once the strings to England are severed, Once a nation that provided the cutting edge of the Worlds No1 Army now not even a shadow of its former self. SNP have already killed Scotland, it’s just alive on a machine. God help them if that Witch gets her way and sorry but the Irish are little better.
ONS figures out Scotlands GDP at £192Bil for 2021/22, so even 1.5% of GDP would be around £2.9Bil on defence, more than double what Ireland currently spends. As mentioned elsewhere many times, smaller countries are better to focus on specific tasks, Scotland would no doubt be maritime focused with an aim to work collaboratively with rUK, Norway, Iceland and Denmark to look after areas of common interest. Added bonus, many current ADR assets are in Scotland so again, a likely area of cooperation to help secure the skies, something Ireland is only just now even considering.
“Becoming”?
Irish Defence has always been reliant on the U.K., hell explicitly so post 1922 to 39 when the U.K. banned the creation of any naval capacity for example. The period post WW2 through to the 90s the economy was far too small for anything close to modern military standards (in the Troubles we were spending at the 1.5% gdp range but that gdp was so small you were talking about some 500m), since then it’s more political and public service inertia and hostility that have limited things.
Does make you wonder why the Irish chose independence if their defence is provided by the British…not really independence in my humble opinion….It would have been far better to have home rule but within the UK…it’s pretty much what the Irish have now with the common travel area and defence as well as the fact their biggest trading partner is the UK…independence in name only it appears…
The complexity of the decisions regarding Irish defence policy is mindnumbing and full of extremely stupid choices, but no post 1916 staying in the U.K. and Home Rule was DOA. And no the U.K. isn’t Irelands biggest trading partner hasn’t been for some time.
“… when they become independent”. 😂
Not going to happen!
What about Wales and Northern Ireland or are they not also in the UK?
Not goin to happen so take a chill pill and relax 👍
In fairness to the SNP their position in this was already outlined. They would be entitled to around 15 Typhoons as part of their UK asset split and these would be run in a joint squadron from Lossimouth with the RAF basically replicating the current uk QRA north force.
Trying to defend the North Atlantic or the north of Britain without access to Scottish air bases and air space is also kind of impossible so I’m sure the rUK and NATO would figure it out.
It’s worth pointing out that many countries as small as Scotland operate a fast jet force. Indeed Ireland and New Zealand stand out as not having one primarily due to free riding by both countries and terrible record on defence spending sub 1% of GDP.
So your a bit of a fud then?
So your a fud 😁
It’d be easy. Before Scotland gets independence, the U.K. government gives Orkney and Shetland and independence referendum from Scotland. They then become members of the union in their own right. After Scotland leaves the union, the RAF can base the QRA and P8’s in the Orkneys and Shetlands….
Ok, it’s not going to happen, but then neither is Scottish independence either 🤷🏻♂️
👍
Bravo.
That’s just a stupid suggestion and would also be a violation of international law under the decolonisation protocols. PS I’m not saying Scottish independence is going to happen and I’m not supporting it but stupid comments like that just reinforce the SNP case, I sure that’s not your intention.
(a) Scotland isn’t a colony so they don’t apply. Saying they do is just, to borrow a word, “stupid”.
(b) There’s an active independence movement in the isles that want to regain their independence from Scotland and stay within the U.K. The SNP hypocritically ignores this.
(c) The SNP has no case.
They would not be entitled to anything since they have a between 35-50% budget deficit that is subsidised by Westminster. They also have enormous debt… to Westminster. In the case of independence, which is unlikely, they would have to repay an agreed upon amount of debt. Certainly there would be no case of an asset split when the entire thing for, including a big chunk of running Scotland, is paid for by England. Scots that support IndyRef2 need to realise, if they separate from the UK, they can either expect taxes that are twice as high (if they want all of their infrastructure, benefits, and services to remain) or they can expect much, much weaker public services.
That’s just nonsense, is that something you have read somewhere or are you just making s**t up for some reason? Why would you make such stuff up? are you some form of English’s ultranationalist or do you just have difficulty sourcing material? Scotland having a 35-50% budget deficit is some MAGA style election denial level stuff, damn it’s verging on flat earther territory (just checking you know the world is round right?) Do you know what a budget deficit is? You know the government has been publishing GERS data that shows Scotland is still in a net surplus right? despite some negative years since 2014?
You’re talking bollocks Scotty, Scotland is NOT in net surplus and it’s debt to GDP is far far worse that the U.K. had a while.
https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-might-the-public-finances-of-an-independent-scotland-look-like
Yes I know what a budget deficit is – I’ve got an economics degree from Oxford. Budget deficit percentages can be either budget deficit against revenue (which is the statistic that matters in this case) the or as a proportion of GDP (which indicates how affordable the deficit is for a country). Scotland’s revenues in the fiscal year 2020 – that’s the one that ends in April 2020 – stood at £40bn and the budget at £56bn, producing budget deficit of £15.8bn and a budget deficit as a percentage of revenues just above the 35% I quoted. Scotland’s deficit in fiscal year 2021 was £36bn, with slightly reduced revenues and so a deficit of over 60%. There is not a single year since 1998 that Scotland has had a surplus.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/350687/scottish-revenue-budget-balance/
Yea but add context the U.K. borrowing rocketed to 317,917billion that your also. 5-6 times on previous years.
That’s why I added another year. FY2020 spending was in no way affected by the pandemic. If you’re still unhappy, I linked a reliable statistic that clearly says the Scottish budget deficit was at or above £15bn every year since FY2015. That means it’s been roughly 35% every year since 2015.
Yeah I’m still not keen on the statistics on a Scottish government deficit. The way the numbers are gathered don’t include everything that is scotlands income or what spending would be if Scotland was an independent country. Will stats not be missing things like if a company earns lots from its business in Scotland but has its HQ in London and other things like that? There are probably other items that aren’t able to be measured completely accurately.
That is not to say that there can’t be a deficit. Just that it maybe hard to measure accurately without an actual breakdown of how the numbers were got to and can it actually account for every penny when the Scottish and U.K. economy are so intertwined
What lot? 😀
This is nothing new, indeed during the Cold War the Soviets targeted Irish cities in north and south and made no distinction over Irish independence or neutrality. Indeed Dublin might have been targeted with a nuclear strike as an example to threaten the UK without actually launching on a British city.
Most Soviet plans from the 70’s seem to show a willingness to use nuclear weapons on non nuclear states while sparing the three nuclear armed NATO members.
The Germans in WW2 had no quarms about invading the Republic of Ireland either.
As a member of the EU and a quasi member of five eyes referred to as six eyes when Ireland is included very few people outside of Ireland view Ireland as neutral. I see more pressure building for a NATO membership soon now that Sweden and Finland have joined.
Point of fact the U.K. also had plans for invading during WW2, but no we aren’t involved in the “Five Eyes”, and NATO is off the list for many different factors.
Plan W?
yeah it was conceived in response to a fear of a German invasion of Ireland
Yeah. That’s the only one I know of.
I do seem to recall a story (how true this is I have no idea) from WW2 of Churchill asking Montgomery if he could take Ireland (secure western approaches or something) & Monty said ‘sure, 2 Divisions & i’ll have it done in 3 weeks’, Churchill was impressed by this, but Monty carried on speaking & said “but it’ll take 20 Divs if you want to try and keep it.” Hahah!
Like I say, only a story & probably just a joke with ‘Irish are hard as nails’ being the punchline.
From memory that was during the post Dunkirk period and Monty and cos view was it would tie down most of what reserves were left in the U.K. to do it
Which is why we went there in the first place, those pesky Spanish.
I think it was highly prudent the UK had plans to invade Ireland if the Nazi’s had invaded. I mean you can’t compare the Nazi’s to Britain which defended Europe and the world from this fascist ideology. Ireland should be externally grateful for what we did and what we sacrificed in the name of freedom. I do have to admit it was highly shameful that Eamon de Valera offered sincere condolescences on the death of Adolf Hitler….quite why this awful man is reverred in Ireland is beyond me. However, what would you expect from a confused American-Spanish man with a tenuous hold on Irish nationality (the old misty Emerald Isle that so many American’s claim heritage from but few have more than a zillionith of a genom pair in common with native Irish). It does make you wonder whether Eamonn was a US agent provocateur used to persuade the Irish to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which I think was a mistake…home rule within the UK would have been far prefereble than the current protectorate status it has now…with most of its trade either with the UK or through the UK…not that independent really…well in name only I guess…
You do understand that he didn’t operate in a vacuum right? By the time post 1916 and then the Conscription Crisis Ireland leaving the U.K. was almost inevitable short of huge military action.
A few things to consider before folks go screaming about Nationalism.
The cables are international assets but within Irish waters, they get cut everyone suffers so sensible to protect them. What would be reasonable is for Eire to allow or operate a decent Radar system to increase our warning times for CAP and provide a forward operating base for Typhoons to be refuelled in wartime.
So it makes sense to help “defend Ireland” as it is our back door
The Radar system is meant to be on the shopping list over the next few years, a forward operating base isn’t likely under most circumstances.
I see it as not stepping up in all areas, but spending on something that does have some value for Irelands situation.
A primary air defence radar as mentioned might be a priority, and secondly, paying the going rate to be able to man the OPVs they have. Upgrading the OPVs with sonar (hull mounted perhaps, not towed, so they can look at the sea bed) and a better radar, and perhaps cutting back on some army aspects might pay for some of this.. reconfiguring to more of a local defence and security role and so on.
As Fast jets are out as far as I can see, so an all-helicopter force, able to conduct maritime and land roles would make best use of the
air forceside of things?AA
Like I said the Primary Radar has moved up the shopping list but who knows. The pay issue is complicated by the public service wide agreements that Ireland uses. The hull mounted sonars are already up on e-tenders for fitting over the next few years of dockings, some issues with their placements due to the design. Cutting back the “senior service” in the Army isn’t a runner as it can barely sustain the limited operations with what they have. For the AC it looks like a couple of transports and a couple more 139s.
Agreed.
I would not presume to plan another nations defences for them but Radar, maybe some SAM’s, slight upgrade to their OPV’s with sonar seem perfectly sensible without breaking the bank.
“Who would attack Ireland?” – Until reading some of the replies here, I’d have thought no one. But apparently the Soviets had plans to just nuke Dublin as a ‘warning’ (doesn’t bear thinking about), the Germans in 1940, the French in 1796. In a world apparently this bonkers, I don’t discount anything anymore.
So you are suggesting the exact same responses that the Commission on defence already suggested with some of them already underway?
Mate, not sure I’m misreading it but, seems I have irked you… my apologies. What I know about the current state of the Republic of Irelands defences is limited to the article linked above & a couple of things I read on here when those OPV’s visited Glasgow(?)… oh, and someone tried to kick off when an RN survey vessel visited Cork(?) but the Garda politely escorted him away.
They’ve already planned it? Cool. Good for them. Seems sensible & modest cost. No need to get F35’s or something daft if you’re “Neutral” eh?
Did you have another idea?
It’s been on the shopping list for nearly a decade but reportedly will be moved forward, other than that the Defence Commissions report lays out pretty much all the options, what gets funded depends on the government of the day.
The OPVs also need torpedos installed. Having sonar is great but you need to back it up. They also need some AA cover.
Nuke Dublin as ‘a warning’ I think that would take us well past the warning stage.
I only found out today on here. Bloody scary but in a cold hearted psychotic kind of way, sort of makes sense. Not officially an ally so not strictly an attack on UK/NATO, BUT they are nearby, obviously we like them, lots of family live in UK & vice versa. Can say the same about USA & Ireland too. Would likely make the West pause & show that the Soviets weren’t bluffing.
I don’t think nuking a western city and murdering hundreds of thousands of people would be seen as a warning. It would be all out Nuclear War and the end if life as we know it.
1) Not my idea buddy.
2) Didn’t say I’d do it.
3) “would be all out”, you can’t say that for a certainty.
4) ‘Western City’? So if the Soviet’s had nuked Helsinki? Tel Aviv? What about Dubai? Yangon? Just wondering how Far East we need to go…..
The Russians dropping nuclear weapons on anyone would be met with retaliation. Nuclear weapons are a major last resort for any nation. No nation drops these things as a warning to others.
Mate, you think IF they’d have dropped one anywhere neutral, we’d have ended the world…? Really!?
👌🏼
Who would attack Ireland ?
Russia &/or PRC. PRC just need to offer “loans” etc & slowly become major stakeholders before extorting concessions & bases, just like they’re up to in the FE. A soft target right on your enemies door step/lines of communication/reinforcement is a tempting target. Another reason our forces need to be stronger to ensure we have the deterrent & ability to safeguard our western flank. The USA also has huge Irish communiteis & interests, so Uncle is a de facto guarantor against any attempted foriegn take over.
👍
The article talks of “Irish Neutrality” & how it’s not real but it missed the obvious one – “The Treaty of Lisbon strengthens the solidarity between EU countries in dealing with external threats by introducing a mutual defence clause (Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union). This clause provides that if an EU country is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other EU countries have an obligation to aid and assist it by all the means in their power”
That is a defensive alliance isn’t it? If they’re in a defensive alliance, they’re not neutral are they? Did the Irish citizenry miss this when they signed up to the EU or am I missing something?
The UK protecting the cables, I understand (as they can’t) but as for our intercepting aircraft ‘it’s for Britains benefit’, I’m not convinced. In a 9/11 style attack, hijacked over the atlantic, even if we only know about it as they leave irish airspace (we’d know sooner), it’s still 30 minutes from London. It takes a Typhoon 150 seconds to go from brakes off to Mach 1.6 at 36,000ft. A Typhoon from RAF Valley could intercept before it crossed the coast of Wales. Just station 4 of them there (or another base of your choice) but no, we apparenty HAVE to intercept before Ireland…. doesn’t add up to me.
Stu – your argument sounds fine if you are trying to defend London (well not even then). If the target is Dublin, why would you be mentioning Wales? With long range missiles you can hit London from well west of Ireland in any case. Ireland has become so irrelevant, any attacking force is going to look at the British Isles as one blob on the map. They won’t care & Ireland can’t make them care. That is what happens when you become irrelevant. Any attack on UK is an attack on NATO. Any attack on Ireland is an attack on EU. EU is not NATO. USA, Canada & UK is 400 million people & they are part of NATO, but not part of EU. To be blunt, if they think they need to, UK will ignore Ireland, the EU & NATO & do what it believes it has to to safeguard the UK. North America will complain but follow the UK lead. If s..t hits the fan, the EU is not going to be too worried about Ireland either – they will have other priorities.
Hi bud, my “defending London” & mention of ‘Wales’ was in the event of a 9/11 style attack (mentioned in the article as justification).
As for other stuff, I know UK, USA, NATO & EU works. If Ireland are attacked (can’t imagine why), EU and UK will care. All depends on circumstances.
One way of attacking UK is via Ireland. EU won’t care as they will be looking at a land war in Europe if that is the case. UK will care because they have no choice. To be honest, though, I don’t think Russia is currently capable. They have spent too much on Ukraine. That’s not to stay they are spent. They (Russia), don’t have the expeditionary mindset of US & UK. They are fighting what is a near pear opponent on land while trying to keep enough of their best available in case NATO moves.
As I understand it the naval ship/s “with the capability to monitor threats off the Irish coast” were cancelled a couple of years ago and don’t appear in the shipbuilding strategy refresh. I think the article is referring to MROSS, the formerly planned multi-role ocean surveillance ship.
What we now expect to get instead is “a capability”, which some think will be a contractor-owned and operated capability. But no matter how it’s to be delivered, it won’t be a bunch of Royal Navy ships. For a start, where would they be built?
Is it not obvious that we are going to defend them anyway, both for their sakes and our own.
I remain sort of on the fence about Brexit but time will tell as to whether it was the right decision however from the point of view of NI-ROI relations it was definitely harmful.Having both the UK and ROI within the EU allowed for the invisible border to work perfectly and in a way ironically bound the 2 nations into an albeit loose Union. On my last visit to Dublin in 2008 the Union Jack was on display at Dublin airport along with the flags of all the other EU nations and was also displayed at the Liffey Canoe race at the finish. This might seem insignificant to some of you but if you know the history of Ireland then it was for me, hugely significant!
As to defence issues, I am sure the armed forces of both nations will continue to co-operate to their mutual best interests quietly and in friendly terms, in the background.
Cheers from Durban
The discussion seemed to go a little of course, with people mentioning the ‘troubles’ etc and soforth. those comments are of irrelevance here. The question is, does ‘Dublin’ want the UK to patrol its skies, and its sea’s?
It could be argued that it is in the best interests of the UK, to know what is occurring in the sea’s and skies around Ireland however, Ireland cannot, and I believe would not let those ‘patrols’ go on without favorable recompense, or even financial support.
Ireland was happy with the U.K. paying for coastal navigation aids up until the 00s from memory, it’s highly unlikely there’s going to be any money changing hands.
First of all I would like to point out the false history narrative in this article. Irish men, and probably women, helped build and maintain the British empire. I dare say some lost their lives doing so. I wish sinn Fein would stop re-writing history. Secondly you have to look at where the EU is going. Macron has his way, and many others, Ireland will be a small off shore island in the the United States of Europe. That means Irish neutrality is dead. Many would say that’s Irish independence thrown away. So Ireland has some choices to make far more important than in a few RAF planes in its sky’s or a RN ships of its West coast !
It would make sense for one of the u.s airbases in Norfolk to be returned to the u.k and moved to Ireland and let them look after the Irish from there
Wow. That would be a big step. From “Neutral” to having a “first strike target” US airbase on your soil overnight.
Neutral to WW3 front line in one easy move.
Maybe not that, but US involvement would be the diplomatic way to go, Maybe a few ex USG cutters and F16s? Build up and training provided by US crews on what I would guess be a very popular posting. Exercises with RN and RAF. Respect Irish sensitivities and maintain neutral status but send a signal to Moscow to keep off the turf?
No, it wouldn’t. They are a big asset to the local economy and directly contribute to the defence of this country, and NATO.
Which one would you move, there are only 2 flying stations in Anglia?
One of the US air bases in Norfolk?
The US has the use of a grand total of 4 active airfields in the UK in 2022, however only two have assigned squadrons. Mildenhall in Suffolk has refuelling tankers stationed there. Lakenheath in Suffolk is the only airfield in the UK that has resident operational fighter squadrons.
Thje RN cannot even protect OUR home waters never mind THAT damned Anglophobic place.
Firstly big respect to all the Irish men and women who fought in WWII in allied forces to defend freedom and tolerance.
What I don’t understand however, is how Ireland (the nation) can claim to be “neutral” in world conflicts like WWII and the developing Ukraine crises. Are they trying not to attract the attention of the big bully, or has their moral compass disappeared? What sort of nation is it that gave support to Nazi Germany, or does not stand up to Putin? Come on Ireland. Get into the 21st Century and man-up! (or should that be person-up).
Ireland never gave support to the Nazis and was very pro Allies across a range of areas. As to current foreign and defence policies it’s complicated by political indifference and public lack of knowledge.
Errr…check your history mate: Nazi officers openly walking about the streets having a whale of a time; denying the Allies access to the Atlantic coast for protection of convoys; IRA acting basically as forward air controllers for the Luftwaffe. mmmm… seem to recall the Germans saying they did not know what was happening. Not impressive.
I know my history, you seem to need a bit more education though. Germans were allowed out of the Curragh as were Allied service personnel, the difference was that an agreement was made for the Allies to return to the U.K. and for the recovery of Allied planes. The IRA were heavily suppressed including executions and were totally cut off from the Germans and never had contact with the luftwafffe. Meanwhile Irish intelligence helped British intelligence in code breaking, allowed US installations on Malian Head, the Donegal corridor, weather and U boat sightings… Churchill knew from 1922 that the Irish governments weren’t going to allow use of the Treaty Ports, it wasn’t a surprise to the Admiralty.
You want to complain about the conduct of neutrals, try Spain, or Sweden or Switzerland, all of whom were more supportive of the Nazis.
Yes, the others were bad in their stance too. The thing is you can’t argue black is white.
I’m not, Ireland was Pro Allies throughout the war that’s a matter of record.
At the turn of the last century the United Kingdom Public Record Office, now National Archives, announced that five ‘boxes’ of material relating to wartime Irish-Nazi Germany governmental contacts (i.e. derived from code breaking) were being sealed for a hundred years.
The Irish couldn’t justify letting the RN use their ports as they were a Neutral Country. And we had no rights to them (anymore).
But the only reason for that is that some daft muppet in London decided that in order to settle a small trade dispute they would renounce their rights to the Treaty Ports unconditionally in 1938
The same daft Muppet was the same later waved around a bit of paper which guaranteed peace in our time.
As for Nazis wondering around in uniform, yes that happened but was German intervened Military personnel who used their rights to go for a walk in the local villages near the Curragh. To tight to buy local clothing.
Being a bunch of planks they actually courtmartialled one of their own and sentenced him to death. The Irish refused their request to borrow some rifles and bullets.
The British interned just bought civilian clothes, went to the pub, cinema, play golf , court etc, one officer even had his horse sent over.
Interesting fact both sides were interned in the same camp and avoided each other.
Ireland staying out of it did prove useful as we traded coal, oil and petrol for something we needed.
Yep Guinness 🙃
Chamberlain in part handed them over as the RN had put zero investment into them post 1922 and they were completely unfit for modern war, to keep them and use them the U.K. would have had to get Dev to agree to give even more land for airbases, AA guns, radar stations, and then add in repairing the damaged infrastructure in the bases all with virtually no local labour force compared to WW1. Not going to happen.
There always seems to be the idea that the ports were war ready and functional, instead of being a major drain on the U.K. to build up to operational use.
Course with everything there were ways around it, with Foynes having an unofficial flying boat base for much of the war.
Theres also the RAF pilot that signed out from the camp, then came back in and signed back in then left again. He went into Dublin and then got the train to Belfast, however on arrival the powers that be decided that he had actually broken his parole and sent him back. Bet his was popular with the rest in the Curragh who had lost days out because of him.
Sure, there were idiots in Ireland during that period who supported nazi Germany, but there again, Oswald Moseley’s fascists also had not inconsiderable support in some areas of England during the same period. But they were and always are in the minority. Sure there are idiot politicians who , in trying to burnish their supposed nationalist credentials, blame the UK for everything but are happy to rely on UK/ NATO defence cover and other advantages. Likewise many UK politicians are happy making a living blaming the EU for all shortcomings, but are content to base their businesses in the EU in order to avoid tariffs and customs.
As the above article alluded to, the Irish civil service and government has a somewhat bi polar attitude to its own defence dept. This is slowly changing however. Over the next 20 years, we can expect Ireland to take on a much more ‘hands on’ role in its defence. More funding, more equipment, more staff. Leading (eventually) to the probable operation of a small fleet of jet interceptors. But it will take time.
I’m sure the EU will be cueing up to give there support…
A delightful people, the Southern Irish have a way of missing the facts. A third of the Irish population moved to the U.K. after 1922. I grew up in London during the post Second World War wave of young Irish people coming over; we had one as a family friend. We children were very fond of him. The Irish media and politicians are frequently at odds over the realities of the course they chose to follow – admittedly driven to it by British (much less English) dimwittedness – that somehow convinced themselves they were important in world terms quite independently from the rest of the British Isles and therefore baffled as to how much independence is actually reliance on a now benign neighbour.
The Island of Ireland is in a geo-strategic zone and has to take that seriously; it’s well beyond being just about ‘England’s’ interests. They haven’t the finances to fulfil current military tasks. The alternatives all would require bases in Ireland and the agreement of friendly countries to fork out defending Irish and international interests. By recruiting the R.A.F and R.N. that problem ceases. Those services are already committed and require no basing in the Republic.
The issue for a fractious minority is Irish sovereignty, an element in Irish politics of near Mythic status, closely followed by neutrality – ‘We are neutral but who are we neutral against?’ as the saying went (despite large numbers fighting and dying in British uniforms). That may explain why the Irish government decided to shut its own defence chiefs out of contact with the British – a compromised neutrality is no neutrality. I think we might need Adm. Ardal O’Hanlon to figure this one out …
After doing many hours of research relating to Irish culture by watching Father Ted, I have come to the conclusion that Craggy Island and Rugged Island are of significant importance to the UK and Ireland and as Ireland clearly doesn’t want to spend money on a military force capable of defending these vital assets, we should at least station an Astute to compliment Craggy islands milk float in case of a Russian invasion.
I’ll have you know kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse was an act of war:
Father Ted did state that kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse was an act of self defence because;
Bishop Brennan was a Nazi,
If Ted didn’t kick him up the arse, Bishop Brennan would have kicked Ted up the arse at some point in the future,
Bishop Brennan was known to have a chemical laboratory at home,
Bishop Brennan was considering buying an NLAW on the black market,
Ted was concerned about the rumours of an alliance with Pat which could have threatened Teds’ safety in the future.
https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/tom-father-ted-characters.jpg
Not to put to finer point on it but do the Irish people actually give a stuff about defence issues? They believe they are a neutral country and behave as such.
They know we cannot leave their territory as a potential weak spot in our defences. We should ask for a contribution. Or use it to help solve the EU border issues.
The answer would probably be no and that the border issue should be taken up with the Commission as it’s not a bilateral discussion.
Lol, they always have been.
Best not to point it out too much though. Some of them don’t take it well and get a bit leery.
I am a proud Scot and a Unionist to boot, but I have an Irish surname. Which as I come from Galloway isn’t a great surprise.
But given Irelands appalling history why shouldn’t they just say “fish Yep we protect that”.
”So someone stick a cable through our waters”, “so what ?”.
“I fulfill my UN obligations and others don’t, I know my biggest historical threat will not attack me” UK by the way).
”I threaten no-one, can’t afford to do so and don’t want too !”
”I live right opposite Sellafield which is probably the No1 Russian target in Europe, and can’t do a damn thing to change that”.
“And I have over 60 million Yanks who all claim to be Irish and will kick up hell if anyone threatens me”.
So a quiet agreement with our neighbours which doesn’t upset anyone, make’s a lot of sense.
Census reports in the US put the Irish- American population at half that – 32 million. And there is a huge misconception in the UK about actual Irish -American influence in the US. There are only two states in the US in which Irish ancestry is number one and they are Massachusetts and New Hampshire- two states with very little influence in modern America. The days of the Kennedys, O’Neills, and Reagans are long gone.
In fact, German is still the number one ancestry in the US.
Geography as to where Irish-Americans live is not what determines their power as a group. Irish-Americans are still a very large lobby group in the US and on Capitol Hill. You don’t have to be a President or Speaker of the House to experience the influence that this group still has.
Although Paul Ryan was recently Speaker of the House. 🙂
And Pelosi has Irish in laws as well
Let’s also not forget the Irish-Canadian,Irish-Australian and the Irish-New Zealand lobby groups. All very strong in these countries. I can assuredly attest to this.
I seem to recall everyone had agreed that Belgium was a neutral country but that didn’t go too well for them during the the world wars.
This is complete tripe.
‘When Britain had the largest empire in the world, it conquered many countries and ruled them directly itself — us included. However, there were a few, for logistical and political reasons, that it had a big brother-type relationship with.
These were known as rotectorates. The difference was that their local rulers still retained absolute control, allegedly, of the day-to-day running of their countries and were given guarantees that they would be protected by the British forces, then the most powerful in the world.
However, the deal was that Britain then represented these countries’ interests diplomatically on the international arena. Such countries at one time or another included the likes of Barbados, Aden, the Maldives, Kenya, Malta and Cyprus.’
I have never heard of the expression ‘rotectorates’ and I have read widely.
Australia was not ‘conquered’; India was already struggling to rid itself of the last vestiges of the Islamic Mogul Empire that actually did conquer Hindu India with great brutality when the wooden ships turned up; the British could never have maintained themselves in any of their colonies without local support. Many were not even countries in the modern sense until Great Britain made them so; the British insisted on borders being observed. Barbados, Aden, the Maldives, Malta and Cyprus were either unrecognised as independent countries or previously occupied – e.g. Cyprus prized away from the Ottoman Turks in 1870 without a shot fired.
Great Britain and Ireland together managed the expansion of global trade in the 19th century for self interested reasons but also protected small countries from aggressive neighbours. (Brunei, Belize, Kuwait anyone?). Across the world from Arctic Canada to the island chains of the Pacific one could have come across Irish men and women under the Union Flag, fully part of this ‘British Empire’. ‘Us’ included!? There were Irish all over Blighty and still are! And we gave all these people – hugely successful Singapore and (once) Hong Kong not least – the greatest of all gifts, the English language that has allowed Ireland to communicate even wretched stuff such as this article, to the world..
This is a non story! The RAF has been providing protection for Irish airspace for decades because Ireland does not have any fast jets.
The ability to intercept cables has existed since ww1. Just because the RN has a new ship does not indicate any new involvement with irish cables.
Well yes, GCHQ has been intercepting many of them, with over 200 probes, or “sniffers” in the last 2 decades alone, and probably before. This is not new.
I will also guess HMS Challenger used to dabble in that area.
It is also not necessary in some cases for the interception to take place underwater, but at the Cable Landing Stations here, if they are owned by a friendly telecommunications operator like C&W or BT, which many are.
So we are not “ involved” with the cables as such, and they are not Irish either.
The new ship. the MROSS, has nothing to do with “Irish Cables” as it will monitor these vital arteries against Russian interference wherever they may be.
I don’t think the RAF “protects” Irish airspace myself, it just wants the ability to access that airspace if it needs to for our own benefit.
Russia has very skewed view of the UK and Ireland , thet see us all as adherents of the ‘Anglo Saxon’ culture. In Putins mind the Anglo Saxon Cultural dominance is something that must be destroyed. For that reason Ireland would not be spared in a major conflict.
The British Islands are just that. Asking someone like Russia to notice Ireland is like asking someone to notice Luxembourg. What was that bump? Luxembourg? You don’t say.
Got to love an article about Irish defence or Scottish independence to trigger folk on here.
All I’d say to those who turn all rabid is look at a map. The UK, or rUK if talking about Scottish independence, needs good relations with our neighbours for our own self interest and security. It is almost impossible to defend our airspace or seas without them onside and access to their territory. We are not doing them a favour.
https://www.facebook.com/Maritime-security-102637724614065 Scroll down to article on the inadequacy of Ireland’s defence forces.
Something quite amateurish about the language used in that article.
There is no such thing as Irish defense. Everyone knows this.
The Republic is an independent State and should provide its own defence. They are just saving money because they know the UK will do it for them.
They could buy an air defence radar and some cheap F16s from tgeir pal Sleepy Joe…
But tgey cannot be botgered to honour tgeir responsibilities….
Interesting that the Irish Examiner Journalist thinks that SSN’s are equipped with sonar to look at undersea cables, from my understanding I don’t believe they are designed for such a task, hence the RN Surface Ship procurement.
However, wouldn’t a re-purposed Mine Sweeper or one of the Echo-class survey ships be more appropriate?
For IRL to rely on the UK for air and maritime patrols as a stop gap is one thing. For such reliance to become an ongoing crutch is quite another. Dublin is well aware how weak our military is, and are making moves to spend some more. But, it’s nowhere near enough. It’s high time for the Irish govt to stop freeloading, and spend serious money on the navy, air force and army. The brake on needed spending seems to be the deep sentiment and attachment many Irish ppl have with neutrality. It’s deeply ingrained. The idealism, however is not consistent with the reality of 2022 and Russian aggression in Ukraine and elsewhere. It’s really up to the government to educate the population, introduce the need for defence as part of the school curriculum. Irish ppl should be grateful for UK assistance on defence , but it’s way past time we paid our own way, and join NATO.