The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has released its Annual Report and Accounts for the financial year 2022-23, which provide a comprehensive view of the department’s financial operations. The report includes a detailed overview of losses and special payments.
Losses
The total number of losses for the 2022-23 financial year stands at 15,062, with an associated value of £805,652,000. The top ten losses, in terms of value, are:
- Integrated Review closure of the Warrior Capability Sustainment Programme – £473,467,000
- F-35B aircraft, ZM1522 – £84,398,000
- Fort Austin and Rosalie withdrawal from service – £41,731,000
- Early withdrawal of CUTLASS from service – £36,317,000
- HMS ATHERSTONE withdrawal from service – £18,927,000
- Reduction in Asset Life of Plant, Property, and Equipment at HMNB Devonport – £13,046,000
- Project Shadow Cancellation – £11,543,000
- BATCIS, Termination of contract for delivery of Falcon Cryptographic Solution – £7,406,000
- Warrior SDSR 2010 – £5,470,000
- Aspire – £3,142,000
Other notable categories of losses include cash and overpayment losses, fruitless payments, stores losses, and abandoned or waived claims.
Special Payments
The report highlights 4,609 special payments with a total value of £114,530,000 made during the financial year. The ten largest special payments include:
- Settlements of Other Personal Injury – £14,927,000
- Settlements of Clinical Negligence – £8,894,000
- Settlements of Vehicle Accidents – £5,248,000
- Settlements for Non-Freezing Cold Injuries – £4,310,000
- Settlements for Asbestos-related diseases – £3,231,000
- Settlements due to Bullying, Harassment & Discrimination – £2,541,000
- Settlements relating to Northern Ireland Legacy – £2,037,000
- Settlements for Noise-Induced hearing loss – £1,563,000
- Common Law Structured Settlements – £1,482,000
- MS Instruments Ltd/ Training Enhancement Partition System – £959,000
Additional expenditures noted in the report include 14 special severance payments totalling £556,000.
The MOD also disclosed making 2,539 gifts with a total value of £138,000 during the 2022-23 financial year. No individual gift exceeded the £300,000 threshold.
The report clarifies that the losses do not represent new losses incurred during the 2022-23 financial year but are final values of losses disclosed as Advance Notifications in prior reports. The reported constructive losses have resulted in the reallocation of funding to higher-priority programmes.
The reports
Very interesting snippet on page 79:
Tackling Fraud and Corruption Fraud
Defence leads the MOD’s counter fraud function. The Defence counter fraud strategy and action plan meet the Government Functional Standard for Counter Fraud (GovS13), set by the Public Sector Fraud Authority (PSFA). The 2022 Cross‑Government Fraud Landscape Report, published in February 2023 by the PSFA, highlights MOD as having the highest detected fraud figure (£149M in 2020‑21) and the second highest figure for combined fraud and error, compared to other government departments (outside of tax and welfare). This is a reflection of the focus by the Department on fraud detection
Page 120:
Not really clear whether the closure of the Warrior sustainment program is an accounting loss or a contractual loss.
Money spent it seems and nothing achieved when it was cancelled recently
‘By March 2020 Warrior CSP was in the “demonstration phase”, demonstrating capability for a range of military missions set by the MoD. A total of £430m had been spent so far. No in-service date had been set, but the demonstration phase was due to finish in 2021.’ – Wikipedia
Yes, it could be. Lot clearer whether it is a
– monetary loss in this period; or
– an accounting write down on old assets at EoL; or
– a linear depreciation loss
It us very hard to understand from a business perspective how ships at EoL (planned) have such a high loss. The sale/scraping value should be a positive on the books.
Mixing up the account ring fragments this way is actually obfuscatory. You’d never do that in business.
This is just a tip of the iceberg what we are not being told is how much of the defence budget is being squandered by our trusted defence contractors.
Like signing off new build’s, knowing full well they are faulty so that the contractor can then get more money out of the budget for “extra maintenance”
Allowing “civilian” sub-contractors to do jobs that should be done by the military engineers so that the main contractor gets 13% of the sub-contractors fee.
Not doing preventative maintenance so that when the building or piece of machinery is condemned the contractor gets a new contact for a new build or replacement piece of machinery.
This is going on daily right under the nose of the MoD as the DIO are either not qualified to assess a job correctly or are too busy to look at a job correctly or simply not bothered as it will get signed off and paid for any way.
There seem to be 2 sets of building regulations in the country one for the Civilian sector and one for the Defence sector.
If a contractor tried to sign off a housing complex with faulty wiring in the civilian sector the contractor would be out of business very quickly yet this seems to be common practice within the defence sector.
Don’t get your knickers in a twist SAR, for every $100m The MOD lose in cancelled programs the US military lose $1bn. If this is the biggest program loss, probably spanning a decade, then the MOD are probably moving in the right direction.
On paper we should have the 4th largest and one of the best equipped armed forces in the world but with the mis-appropriation of funds along with the procurement fiasco we are a long way down the table. There was a time when I would get hot under the collar about the fact that less than half of the defence budget gets to where it is needed but those days are long gone, why should we give a f–k about the UK when all our politicians are bent in every sense of the word our police force is utterly corrupt, along with the top brass in the military.
The politicians do not give too hoots about the military and quit frankly most of the country thinks we can defend the UK armed with a laptop and a drone.
The only direction we are moving in is up sh-t creek and the politicians have sold the paddle to the Ukraine’s.
We get your “rage”.Truly mind boggling amounts money, energy, and potential equipment wasted. Whoever is responsible for all this should have and could have done an awful lot better. Totally agree. They’re doing a real disservice to the UK. On the larger flip side there must be an awful that has and is being done well! As SB below asks, we need some more good news on what’s actually going right!
You are right in trying to point out the good areas that go unnoticed, they go unnoticed because they are overshadowed by an ever increasing shadow that is lurking through-out the UK. This Spector can be stopped but it is going to take someone with a rear set of gonads to do it.
I’m curious who you put above us, to rank us a long way down the list.
The issue is we gold plate and other nations don’t, so it’s hard to compare. For example what is better one f35 Vs 2 rafales, the answer will no doubt be it depends on the scenario.
The other big unknown is war stocks and logistics, a nation with very little in the cupboard but massively more mass would still lose against a small enemy that has large supplies and logistics.
Finally there is currency / health & safety / wages, that differ between counties and will eat up a lot of the budget for a western country Vs say a middle eastern or Asia country.
Whilst I agree we should be getting a lot better value for money, I’m not sure I would put us outside the top 10 in capability and probably a bit higher than that. Maybe 5-6th.
We have almost certainly leapfrogged Russia now, which would be one of the countries with a smaller budget that would have been considered more powerful, although that appears to have been a poor assessment in the first place.
If by gold plated you mean too expensive so we can only have a few of them you are right, and war stocks you are right again we have next to none!! As for the Rafale’s we could not use them as they cannot land on our carriers.
Sorry for being a sceptic but I thourght that the idea of the armed forces is to be able to f–k up the opersition so should not be worried about Health and Safety, you also mentioned wages just ask the average squaddie if they were impressed with the 5% when all the other government organisations are getting an average of 7%
Spot on.
Which funds have been misappropriated?
SAR, you seem to under the mis-apprehension, like many on this site, that the U.K. defence budget has any more “waste” than our peers or that our peers have better politicians and better procurement. A little research will suggest that you are in error and that apart from possibly Isreal, who have a constant state of war to keep them sharp, we have comparatively few defence “disasters” or mid-appropriations, as you call them.
I may well be in error about a lot of things but one thing I am not in error over is that there is massive room for improvement in this country and not just in the Defence industry. Just because it is acceptable in other countries why should we have to accept it.
As for Israel they have turned into what created them a Nazi state.
SAR, so intelligent discourse requires an understanding of the subject matter and its factual underpinnings. It also requires an understanding of its contextual relevance. So for instance if a local butcher sells his lamb chops for £2 per lb and the locals complain that this is expensive, it could be expensive or cheap compared to local butchers or supermarkets. For people to keep banging on about how bad the MOD is, without comparing it to other services, makes no sense.
As for Isreal, Natanyu is neither the Isreali people or representative of their armed services, just as Trump was not representative of the American people or their armed services.
Your understanding of the subject matter seems to be some what floored. If you are not happy with the services you get from the local shop you can then take your business else where, the MoD are limited to a few contractors who supply the services the MoD require but once the contract is signed then those self same contractors seem to that grate pride in ripping the MoD off and unlike me or you the MoD cannot simply walk away and go to the next shop.
Natanyu was elected by the Israeli people as was Trump who might well get a 2nd term next year. In Israel and the US the president is the head of the armed forces and has a direct say so in the promotion of the officers that surround them so have a direct influence on military policy.
SAR, presume you mean “flawed”. The thing is the same terms of business apply to the armed services of all large economies, so not sure how my views are “flawed”. The U.K. government can and does buy military equipment from domestic contractors and foreign contractors. What is at issue is how these contracts are managed and the consequent value for money of said contracts. You, and many of your peers, contend that the U.K. government/MOD are very very bad at this. My contention is that there is no objective evidence to support you thesis and much evidence to the contrary.
Trump/Natanyu even typing their names leaves a bad taste, but just as there are good Americans that objected to the former, there are many Israeli’s who are not represented by the latter.
But it could be better, and please forgive me for pointing out that is should be better, as our armed forces and our tax payers deserve better.
Well, we all could be better, but more informed, less hysterical critiques would certainly help to raise the level of discussion and hopefully the level of information dissemination. Having waded through some of the congressional and audit reports on various US projects and the extravagant waste involved, it really pisses me off when I see some of the nonsense written about the MOD. Obviously they are not perfect, obviously they could do better. But considering the political dithering that they have to deal with, they do pretty well and should get some recognition.
Recognition by who!! The fact that you think the UKs MoD waste’s less than the US that makes it all OK.!! The UK has a fraction of the spending power of the US so any mis-appropriation or waste within an inadequate budget magnifies the problem 10 fold. But according to you we have to just accept it as normal, I don’t think so Mate.
Obviously I didn’t make myself clear. I didn’t say that we should “just accept” errors and overspends, what I was trying, and obviously failing, to get across is that we should have a more informed and balanced discussion and not just uninformed rants based on ignorance. Criticism is great, informed criticism based on comparative evidence is even better. I hope my clarity has improved.
Like many on this site you need to get off of you pious high horse, Just because you think you are right dose not mean the rest are wrong. Education has a funny way of making you believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong.
Putin, Lavrov, Trump, Johnson and Natauyu along with many others all highly educated people who seem to think by lying out of their back teeth us so call uneducated pee-ons have to accept it as “we know no better” well surprise, surprise we know the difference between right and wrong and just because one country wastes more money than us dose not mean we are better.
Not sure where you get the “high horse”, from. Logically, two people with diemetrically opposing views cannot both be right, unless we are living in some kind of alt universe where the rules of logic are different.
As for Trump et al, there are enough brainless people in society to make him dangerous to society and the weird thing is he holds his own supporters in contempt.
So only you are right,! All I know is the UK is losing money hand over fist from ineptitude, mis-guided judgment and mis-appropriation of the tax payers £’s, I’m not really bothered if other counties are losing more money than the UK as I along with most of the punters in the UK who pay their taxes into the UKs treasury should have a right to demand less wastage and as an ex squaddie I would also like to see the UKs armed forces with the kit and personnel they need to do the jobs that they are asked to do. Am I wrong!
I do really wish George and the team would do an article on the very many projects that came in close to time and budget and the just work quietly in the background.
That would be a very long list. Most procurement projects are successful.
Precisely.
But it would add balance to the debate?
I’m a bit surprised that MOD haven’t done this as it is a pretty obvious PR win.
Is your comment exclusively about buildings for MoD? I got confused. Is this referred to in the article? Which buildings projects have suffered from the issues you mention?
Well let us start in Norfolk as I live there, Landmarc has just been given a new 5 year contract to run the UKs firing ranges and dry training areas. Under the previous 5 years contract the camps around Stanta (Thetford) were rebuilt it was about time as they were built in WW2 and have not been altered ever since.
So Landmarc contracted the work out under DIO supervision all good I hear you say. But where it all falls down is, it was over budget behind schedule and to add insult to injury none of the new accommodation buildings have any hot water due to faulty wiring but the contractor who wired up the new accommodation refuses to come back and fix it as it was signed off by the DIO and Landmarc. Some have leaks in the new roofs and some have uneven floors. Again all signed off by DIO/Landmarc.
Just a hick-up I hear you say, until you realise that Landmarc gets 13% of every contract that goes out to tender with the DIO and also has the maintenance contract for the camp so gets more money when things go wrong. It gets worse, the new kitchens for the camp was also built by the same contractors and was built with faulty extractor fans so the first time the new cooks were allowed to use the kitchens they ended up in hospital with CO2 inhalation and yet again it is Landmarc that get more money to put right what should have been put right buy the contractors if the DIO/Landmarc had done their job properly and picked it up before it was signed off.
This is just one building project on one camp that Landmarc looks after, they have anouther 25 scattered around the country.
This seem to be the norm for contractors working for the MoD.
How many Billions dose the MoD lose each year from over priced, behind scheduled and shoddy workmanship that is supposed to be picked up and policed by the DIO.
I am also no fan of Landmarc. For 5 years to last summer I was a Captain in the ACF. Our summer camp was often at a camp administered by Landmarc.
At West Down Camp in 2019 we were forbidden from parking our Coy HQ landrover and minibus outside our company office as the only spaces were reserved to visitors to the Landmarc office block but no-one visited them in the 2 weeks we were there – we had to park 1km away. The heating in the drying room did not work for 5 days and cadets could not dry wet kit after a day in the rain. Not impressed at all. They also ran the POL point badly, with very restricted hours.
There are literally hundreds of examples I could use just from Landmarc alone and that is just one of many defence contractors who see the defence budget as a get rich quick gift, but who is to blame I would put it down to the governmental authorities like the DIO which was formed by the MoD to police contractors and contracts. But seem incapable of doing what it was commissioned to do.
Landmark does not have good pay rates so will not get the best people !
I th if there is a fraud anywhere, it should be.in the public domain. What’s the subject of any alleged misdoings? This is what we expect from the Romanian, not here.
Very little fraud in MoD procurement. The last serious case was the Foxley case, decades ago.
Glad there is no chance of us getting caught up in a war then.
I think as a precaution we should move over to drones or Swordfish TSR as the carriers principal weapons outfit. OK a few Hawker Fury wouldn’t do harm.
Much more fun Blackburn ROC with turret!
£805,652,000. Good grief. Words fail me
I bet a similar figure for losses and special payments would far exceed MoD’s.
Over 10% of this was for the lost F-35B seemingly caused by someone not taking off the air intake covers before take-off.
First sentence should have said …’in the NHS’
Yes, there’re two comma’s there unfortunately.
I’m not going to go ahead and say the loss of the airframe was a good thing but there are definitely positives.
Of course the main positive is nobody was hurt. Other than that it’s a great learning lesson to prevent future similar losses- much better now than during wartime. Another airframe is being bought in batch 2 (although not ordered yet) which also has the added benefit of being a being a block 4 which is always a good thing considering there is a possibility not all will be upgraded.
Sods Law the one lost was pretty much new but hey-ho – yes a Block 4 replacement might sooth some of the pain 😰
Are we replacing with an additional order of an extra air frame or just replaced from the existing number and so perm 1 down?
The MOD have stated that the unfortunate Airframe will be replaced so we will have to take their word for it 🤔
Words have meaning though. Replacement doesn’t mean additional purchase, just means another one will fill the role, could easily be from the existing buy.
Fortunately, fast jet losses and crashes are now extremely rare. During the 80s it was pretty much one a month.
The harrier losses were quite frankly insane, the things fell out of the sky for a pass time.
Shhhh, how are we going to convince everyone we should scrap Lightning and go back to Harriers if you point out facts like that?!
Block 4 ?
They havent even completed the development for that yet, more money and longer time span needed
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/05/f-35s-block-4-upgrade-55-percent-over-target-costs-up-1-4b-since-last-review-gao/
Apparently even though concurrency was rightly panned a decade back as the wrong way to go about the development program , its still happening as the current build standard is called TR-3 for technology refresh which is supposed to allow Blk 4 which is developed concurrently to be added later when its complete
Jeez that’s a big number
Why does it cost 19 million to withdraw a minesweeper from service?
It doesn’t…
That is the book value on the accounts.
If the asset (i.e. the Minesweeper) when built cost £100m you set an annual depreciation figure. It has no real bearing on the actual real world value.
Bit like car or housing insurance…
I’m confused. How does taking a ship out of service count as a loss? It’s saves money, frees up spares, crew etc.
The biggest number is the warrior. I’m lost for words
Every year, the depreciation of the value of the ship is counted as a loss. When it is finally decommissioned, whatever its current value (i.e. the initial value minus the total depreciation) is is written off as a lump sum loss. The value of that minesweeper is currently 19 million, and it is simply being given away. The crew are neither being lost nor created so thats irrelevant to this situation. If spares were recovered from the ship, then 19 million is the value of the ship minus the value of the spares.
Say you buy a Dacia Sandero for £16,000. To reflect this addition to your net worth, you add 16,000 under the heading “Cars”. (And subtract 16,000 in cash from your bank account.) You expect to use it for 15 years, and then sell it for £1,000. You know its value will gradually decrease over time, but you’re not entirely sure. Nonetheless it would appear from this estimate that its value decreases by £1,000 every year. Hence, to reflect this decrease in value, every year you deduct £1,000 from your net worth. Note that the value is completely notional and no actual money is changing hands. You could in fact choose not to account for the Sandero at all and it wouldn’t change your life. (Most people don’t.) However for many business operational purposes it is important, and in fact legally required. After 15 years, you sell the car, and instead of receiving £1,000 as expected, you only receive £500. Hence in that year, you register a “loss” of £1,500, but actually your bank account received £500 in cash. Welcome to accounting.
Which is why I let someone else deal with my tax affairs…😀
There is steam coming out of my ears (I am Russian).
I think many have guessed already that you are Russian!
Nicely explained, thank you.
Finance not a strong point here.
IS IT THE DACIA SANDERO!?
Ask General Carter. He brought forward a 5 billion plus programme to “Replace” it….Boxer.
Would have been better and several billions cheaper to just continue with Warrior and complete the 2010 A2020 plan getting
Ajax for the Armoured Cavalry.
Warrior for the Armoured Infantry.
And Ch3 for the RAC paid for and in service BEFORE going misty eyed at wheels.
seems like a right tosser to me..,
I am lost for words that the MoD did not complete the WCSP programme. Not only would no loss have occurred but it would have been far cheaper than buying Boxers for the AI.
I too am lost for words as to why the MoD cancelled WCSP, and are spending shedloads more on procuring something that may not do the job.
The losses are the writing off/down of the carrying values of the particular assets. Obviously, all represent previous expenditure but in the case of the withdrawal from service of Fort Rosalie, Fort Austen and Atherstone, it is odd to call them losses since they have all served beyond their initial design life and we’re not withdrawn early. Presumably the MOD doesn’t fully depreciate assets over time.
Or they add on costs as new kits is added in refits.
That too.i
Nearly £500 million to Not bring Warrior CSP into service,i think im in the wrong Job. .
Anyone know what happened to the turrets designed by LMUK for Warrior? There was some talk of fitting them to Boxer.
I think they have the CTA-40 guns, these were already ordered and will need to find a home. Turrets never went into volume production. It would make an excellent anti-drone gun due to the wide elevation arc.
AFAIK they are the same Turrets as used on Ajax.
I don’t think they are the same. Designed for different turret rings despite having same CTA cannon. LMUK was,paid $1b by GDUK for the. 289 Ajax turrets. So there might be some value from the Warrior programme if the turrets could be re- used.
Looking further you are right, which begs the question why not use a common base Turret design, I’d guess the Ajax Turret has some specialist Recce gubbins too, different ring sizes can be overcome.
I hope someone is looking at the feasibility of that. Those turrets of course contained the stabilised 40mm CTAS cannon.
I see in the full report Ukraine capital spending was £1.98 bill plus resource spending £0.4bill- presumably for the training and other operations.
Thats £2.4 bill overall taken from the defence budget not from the treasury contingency fund like Afghanistan or Iraq- nor from the foreign aid budget
and people forget the settlements bills come out of the 2% budget along with pensions, which is a big chunk of money, which could be better used, on equipment wages etc
When people say the budget is big, where’s it all going, these types of articles give insight to that.
For a heartening view on defence budgeting, Perun on Youtube covers South Korea. Interesting takes on % GDP / PPP, manufacturing base vs mainly financial, & the applicability of older platforms to delivery mass.
I’ve made it 15 mins into the video. 3 times I’ve fell asleep listening to it.
….need to get to bed earlier …or to sleep earlier
Yes, maybe should have mentioned they tend to be thorough? But in that case I definitely will not mention I’ve listened to every one of them.
Off topic, but relating to writing off ships. There was an interesting article in Naval Technology about the increasing time taken to refit the Type 23s. There’s a table showing the periods of time to refit increasing from between 1 and 2 years in the first half of last decade to between 3 and 4 years now. It states that the policy is that a ship can continue a maximum of six years after an upkeep maintenance period before needing to go back into another one.
Four of the remaining eleven frigates are in refit: St Albans, Sutherland and Argyll, and Westminster whose refit has been suspended as being too extensive/expensive. This leaves seven to work with, including Iron Duke in trials or working up.
There are four more ships that will need to go into refit to stretch them past 2027/28 when we hope the new frigates will come online. Northumberland, Kent, Lancaster and Richmond. Northumberland and Kent should go into refit by mid 2024 at the latest. St Albans and Argyll could be back by then, just, but will be in trials or working up. Furthermore Argyll is GP. Richmond and Lancaster will go into refit in 25/26 (I’d guess not until after CSG 25) with apparently only Sunderland back before then, maybe 2024/5.
This could mean we’ll reach the low point in frigate numbers in 2026 with only six ships available or in trials, and of those only four will have TAS, unless Westminster’s gear is moved to Argyll or Iron Duke (not a trivial task according to earlier forum comments).
However from Argyll and Westminster onward these ships will already have been through the full LIFEX. It’s suggested that Argyll is expected out of refit within 18 months. I’m not sure if that isn’t an overly optimistic prediction, but perhaps it’s a closer pattern for the next four, that either they will take less time than the previous LIFEX refits or like Westminster will simply be deemed financially irreperable. If so I wonder if we might see Northumberland going into refit a bit sooner this year in the hope of getting it back in the fleet in 2026.
It is quite worrying how much money the army has spaffed away on AFV procurement for very little gain. 4 billion for nothing is not great.
I think it is more, sadly.
What I think is really awful is when you look at how much could have been purchased in the way of infantry fighting vehicles and derivatives If you put together the warrior program, the boxer program and Ajax….if I have my sums right your talking north of 15billion pounds or 20 billion dollars…when you think for that we could have purchased around 2500 CV90 MK IV or V of all varieties to cover all needs….and probably negotiate the manufacture in this country. It’s actually appalling.The army needs to seriously look at itself around procurement…the problem is the damage is done as HMG are not going to just go bad show chaps here’s a few more billion.
Exactly.
And what do we get from the Army and it’s supporters in the media pre DCP?
Nasty CDS, Nasty RN carriers taking our budget.
It’s utter cobblers.
The army has not been short of money.
What they do with it is the problem, and the endless reorgs.
The army has taken so long to get vehicles made and ready for service that by the time they reach service the numbers ordered and the types ordered no longer fit with the latest orbat/plans/solider numbers.
Then the vehicles are so bespoke and expensive that there’s no chance of exports.
Meanwhile the old kit is costing much more to keep going and is past its best.
Another £1 Billion can be added from the FRES fiasco.
Not sure where you get these inflated figures from, are they the usual made up nonsense?
actually I did add them up wrong…it’s only about 13billion dollars ( I added a 0 to one of the figure) so the army has only spent 13billion dollars to procure around 1100 vehicles….half of which are still not working and the other half are more APC than IFV. That’s fine value for money for the public…and yes I do actually research and look things up..like everyone I sometimes make a mistake…but I do try to respect others on this site, personally I think you should reflect a bit on your behaviours and how you post as you come across a bit unkind.
Hi Jonathan, I have no “unkind” intent. However, with the absence of any serious curation, you do get a constant stream of off the cuff stupid (tabloid) comments. With regard to your comments, I presume we are talking Boxer and Ajax. Boxer seems to be going well and AJAX is a fixed price contract. So both seem reasonable. If you want a shit show you should look at the recent German performance.
Jonathan is correct.
Boxer is a 6 Billion plus programme.
Ajax is, 5.5 Billion.
WCSP, around .5 billion written off.
Previous to Ajax, Tracer, then FRES, and endless faffing about, 1 Billion spent for next to nothing. Think Defence has the go too article on that disaster.
It would have been cheaper to have stayed with WCSP.
But as I have tried to explain many times, the army changed the A2020 plan in 2015 and brought Boxer forward while 3 other programmes- WCSP, Ajax, and CH3 were in progress.
They then went into the 2019 defence review, where savings had to be made. Warrior got it in the neck.
Boxer, several times more expensive than Warrior, was originally the MIV programme, due in 2028, to replace HPM Mastiff in just 3 Battalions, before the 2015 change reduced Warrior to 4 Bns and planned Boxer for another 4, one more than previously planned.
Why was it brought forward a decade?
Who made that decision, and why?
They effectively, in 2019, scrapped WCSP and went all in on a programme several times more expensive with, as things stand, a MG for firepower. One of the world’s most expensive APCs, and not an IFV.
I can go into greater detail if you’d like, explaining the entire rationale behind A2020 in 2010, A2020R in 2015, and what an unholy mess they’ve made. 👍
DM, before you get all hysterical on me, we are talking about accounting write off’s? So as I understand it, We have CH3 for kicking down the door, AJAX for medium capability armour and Boxer for troop transport and reconnaissance. CH3 is a world class proven platform that will be upgraded. Boxer, is an in service proven platform and AJAX is a fixed price, deliver to spec or we don’t pay program. Wishing for the past is a bit pointless, it seems to me.
Hi Okham.
Hysterical? Not me. You said to J the prices he quoted in his earlier post seemed “inflated” and “made up nonsense.”
I thought that wide of the mark, so was trying to assist you in understanding the history of that procurement process and the plan before the changes the Army made in 2015, to appreciate why people are unimpressed with the costs incrued for the assets gained, so far.
I see my effort was in vain, so if I’m going to get “hysterical”, noted I won’t waste my time going forward, my apologies for trying.
For info, I for one support Ajax, always have, as I take note of the poster who knows, Ian M.
Boxer is and will be a fine vehicle, if given the armament upgrades needed as it has no cannon, where Warrior did.
CH3 I also have no issues with.
Have a nice evening. 👍
So DM, he accepted that he got his figures wrong. We move on. You say you have no problems with the programs. Sorry but I’m confused, because your previous comments suggest that you do and that they are a fantastic waste of money, for which you provide no comparative evidence. I apologise for rational analysis, it’s hard to de-program myself.
How can you describe CR3 as a world class proven platform?.
Because it is. No professional that I’ve come across regards it as inferior to Leopards or Abrams. In fact most regard its protection as superior. It’s deficits are electronics and ammunition, both of which will be addressed by the CH3 upgrade.
Must be frustrating for the Admiral of that carrier to learn one his sailors left the cover on the F35 intake, then nobody noticed, and to top it all off a mobile phone was used to publish the footage. The sailor who posted the footage obviously thinks more about his social media status than his military duty. Looks like discipline issues in the Royal Navy perhaps?
Always the negative. Yes, it must be very frustrating. Even more so for the crew who made the error. They won’t do it again. And?
What military doesn’t have occasional discipline issues or security breaches?
Everyone has a mobile phone and use of it is dangerous.
Highlighting a mistake won’t get you Brownie points on that one, and I’d wager in professional militaries those errors happen a lot less than in that of Russia’s.
The Russians are so full of them a crane falls on their aircraft carrier, and their men run away in Ukraine, followed by Ukrainian drones, before being shot by the modern day NKVD. That is if they’ve not been geolocated first and killed as they’re too busy on their phones.
Discipline issues in the Russian Army and Russian Navy perhaps?
So was he disciplined does anyone know I assume we will never know However.. He bloody well better have been as tbh Frost0002 is right on this occasion absolute joke someone thought it was OK to post the video.
At the very least I hope members of the crew have dished out appropriate discipline.
You’re right of course. I wonder what the outcome was.
Social media is a big problem in the military.
Running aps used by serving personnel exercising around their installation? What if that location is classified? Not any more. It is given away.
You see some great snippets on Linkedin too, people giving their job description that gives more away to me than they realise.
People everywhere have the need to post some thing.
Remember that Russian Submarine Commander who was publishing his running route on Strava? Then one day he went for a run and some Ukrainian Partisans where waiting for him with a little 9mm surprise. (I say submarine commander, was promoted to gauleiter which is the job he was doing when he got demilitarized).
Publishing your runs on apps can have much more personal consequences than revealing a classified location.
Ah yes, a fine example.
In the army, we in REME raised what used to be called an NM&D (Negligence, Misuse and Damage Report) – later PC-corrected to just ‘Damage Report’, when we received an equipment that had failed for such reasons.
It detailed the repair costs (parts and labour). The document went to the man’s OC as documentary evidence for the disciplinary investigation. The costs arising was considered for the punishment imposed.
Don’t know about the Navy.
Totally the discipline of the Russian military is very poor, lacks focus. The British armed forces have (or had) a worldwide reputation of total professionalism and respect. Watching an F35 roll of the deck on a sailors mobile footage, which he took from cctv after the event, totally shattered that illusion. There was clearly a total lack of respect.
A single act of uploading a bit of grainy phone footage videoed off a computer screen, shattered the world wide reputation of the British Military! Fuck me you are clueless in regard to military matters! People do stupid things, remember the military is a cross section of the society it’s there to defend, and no amount of training can eradicate stupidity to a 100%, I mean, look at your many previous posts….
Mr Borne, the EU is crumbling. Russia from the East. Uk from the west. France Germany have a totally different Outlook to the UK. You seem insecure. Try brandy “old china”.
Ah diddums he is now using colloquial terms he previously got caught out on not knowing!
Show me someone who never made a mistake and I’ll show you someone who’s done f**k all in their life. You meet that criteria of never achieving anything with your thick as shit asinine commentary. Are they all mobilised thickos in that troll farm you’re from?
Thanks comrade, you have elevated my status.
To judge by the execrably low Russian standards, that doesn’t say much.
Did you see the video of the Russian Helicopter that demilitarized itself today? Pilot taxied it into a post, smashed the rotors which in turn severed the tail and then the pole collapsed and fell on the Mi-26.
Oh and someone in the control tower filmed it and uploaded it to telegram. Must’ve been frustrating for the base commander to learn that one of his soldiers can’t even taxi and to top it all off a mobile phone was used to publish the footage.
https://i.imgur.com/zNkaSoF.jpeg
Ha ha, sorry. You seem angry at Russia?
Was I talking to you? Nope.
But hmmmm… now why would someone be angry at a bunch of genocidal, imperialist, mass murderers war criminals and rapists currently engaged in an unprovoked and inexcusable invasion of a neighbour?
Nope can’t think of any reason.
God you are really thick.
That is a critical opinion of the Russian people. Not true. Nato is threatening to Russia. You can’t see that?
Oh spare me the fucking Vatnik crying points.
If Russia is so worried about NATO maybe it shouldn’t keep invading it’s neighbours.
Ah now you are showing your true self and regurgitating the official Pooptin line of NATO threatening Russia! Silly little troll, letting your agenda slip out in your frothy anger!
No, I had not seen that!! 😆 Seems endemic of much of the Russian military. Like the bombs dropped on their own population miles and miles from the true target.
Discipline problems in the Russian Air Force perhaps? Or just blatant incompetence.
Mate it’s like a comedy of errors. I’d link it but you know the approval period, just type “Russian Mi-26 Pole” into google and the video will come up.
I suspect incompetence, but then again, disciplined followers don’t march on your capital do they?
Ok just looked it up, absolutely hilarious.
I’d say it’s a comedy of errors , a farce, dumb and dumber at work but… that’s just the Russian Army.
Also:
https://i.imgur.com/9zgUTxB.jpg
V good, whoever thinks of these.
Me. XD
Ahhh, even better then! V Good. Did you create the Oddball one too? That was classic.
Yeah I got lazy and couldn’t be bothered to find another picture of Putin. 😛
Great stuff. 👍
The problem is everyone makes mistakes all the time, it’s human. We put in process measures to reduce these errors and the impact…but when the holes in the process all line up and human factors come into play mistakes happen. In the end all you can really hope for is the mistakes don’t kill or maim someone…and you notice them before they do something catastrophic and you can put in a process measure to patch that hole….but in really there is a never end toll of death and destruction from people simply making a mistakes. I’ve done it…everyone who works in jobs that force pace and risk have….and most of the time it’s a roll of the dice if you get away with it….the pilot walked away..lessons would have been learn.
social media is another issue and a real problem everywhere….
All too true. Like in my industry on the railway. We have rules and safety devices for Line Blocks and people still get hit by trains where there should be none.
railways always generated a lot of work for me….once looked after a person who had fallen from a bridge onto a line in front of a train…but she suffered nothing other than minor scratches and a sprain from the fall, she fell into the middle of the track between the rails and the train just went over the top of her…..electrified rails as well.scratched…sprained and utterly terrified but nothing else ( and I’ve seen what should have happens to her and it’s unpleasant as hell)….I’ve seen some lucky escapes…another one where a guy on a motor bike ended up going into the back of a Volvo at 110mph with nothing but a broken arm( his bike was scattered over 100yards of road and the Volvo has a 3 foot deep hole driven into it…and another involving 2 articulated lorries and a mini…the woman in a mini actually came to rest between two crashes articulated lorries…the one in front of her jackknifed and tumbled in front of her, the one behind followed she emergency braked, the cab of the lorry behind her ripped off and sailed over her car and crashed down right in fronr of the mini..so you had a tumbled jackknifed lorry, then the cab of the second lorry ripped off and facing down the road..then the mini stopped about a foot in front of that cab( they were facing each other)..then just behind the mini that second jackknifed trailer….(one of the more interesting crash sites I’ve seen) what is bonkers is all three walked away…then there was the time my mates accidentally dropped another mate from a 4th floor window ( trying to swing him into his 3rd floor flats window as he had locked himself out..so it was more stupid than accident or mistake TBH)..sprained his ankle nothing more ( we dropped him head first…I told them it was a stupid idea..I really did)….at the same time I have seen people die from tripping over carpets…one person was even killed by a dental chair accidentally triggering and knocking them over…the world of accidents and mistakes is strange and you never can tell the outcome….
I simply don’t understand why there is a need to allow mobile phones and personal Internet access on operating warships. What to they offer other than temptation on destruction?
Oh my oh my you have never been in the military have you?
No. Have you cadet?
You know he has, which is why you’re trying to get a rise out of him by calling him “cadet”. Shut up and sit down you stupid little brat.
Oh dear. Airborne is just like everybody else’s grandad with smart phone, a war hero who needs respect. Get it. But the world moves on
Troll.
Comes here, acting like he’s looking for an opinion, gets information from people who’ve actually served, and then just wants to poopoo their service.
What a pathetic low life you are.
Wow thats a yawn comment! I need no pats on the back me old China and I have a number of IT comms as well as smart phones, so I’m fully conversant in modern tech, thanks for your concern. How about you? You can’t even debate and defend your own posts, just resort to negative waves Moriarty, negative waves!
He does not “need” respect. But he bloody well has respect from me. For free. And I extend that respect to Dern too, and all ex and serving on this site.
What did you do for your country to mock service veterans? You respect your veterans of the Great Patriotic War, and quite rightly.
So no, at least you answers that, second question was why as a none UK national, with no military service have you joined a UK based military stories and comments website?
People have to live….take away everything and you won’t have any staff left. But there is a cultural issue around media and the need to share images etc…effectively its a whole new set of training…
Bollocks. Too many liberals run the UK military. Royal Navy is like a sixth form college, where everybody is addicted to towie.
A demonstration, anywhere? Everyone on their phones, then onto SM.
Even Russian demonstrators protesting against the Putin regime, being taken away by police? Filmed on SM.
Football match, fans on their phones filming.
Incident in the street, filmed by bystanders and put on SM.
As J says, it is a cultural issue, and your attempts to make it a UK Military problem are not working.
What is your navy like in your country? And remind us, you avoid the question all the time, what country will that be!
Would the Royal Navy in 1942 allow the crew to walk around with newspapers and playing cards all day? What’s changed?
Now that comment is one of your most stupid, well done!
Well even the navy of the napoleonic is era gave its sailors time to relax and do the things they did at that time for entertainment and they lived in a brutal world in which people had almost no rights with cruelty that we cannot comprehend today. The sailors of the 1940s would never have worked under the conditions of the napoleon era…or the Victorian era and the sailors of 2020 in the same way would not work under the conditions of the early 20c. The life expectancy of a man in 1930 was 58..this was in the main because of working and living conditions…it was 41 in 1820….it’s now 81.5 years…we live in a profoundly different world to our ancestors and have profoundly different lives..those that serve rightly expect the same lifestyle as those they protect….when you have a class that are expected to protect a population who have a better life style and expectations that’s never going to end well and not something a modern democracy can live with…Russia treated is conscripts like slaves,we do not treat our servicemen and women in the same way.
Exactly.
The standing joke is mobiles work better than Bowman!
Lets not pay attention to how many Migs have crashed without enemy action in Russian service then shall we?
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-su-25-jet-crashes-azov-sea-pilot–malfunctiondead/32507206.html
July 17 a Russian SU-25 crashes into the Sea of Azov, it’s pilot drowns.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russian-fighter-jet-crashes-pacific-fate-mig-31s-100660989
July 4 a Russian Mig-31 crashes into the Pacific.
https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-russian-mig-combat-jet-burst-flames-before-crashing-lake-2023-4?r=US&IR=T
April 24 a Russian MIG-31 crashes in Murmansk
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32826-mig-31-fighter-jet-crashes-in-russia
December 2 a Russian Mig-31 crashes in Primorsky Krai
But yes it’s the Royal Navy that has the problem. 🙄
Or should we maybe start talking about Kursk and Komsomolets as well?
Yes of course. But 1st remind us of the F104, F4, Lightning, Harrier etc etc. Widowmakers? Sorry too much Vodka today. A question to UK citizens. Was it Russia or the US who won WW2?
Guess what, it’s 2023. Russia lost 4 fighters to accidents in the last few months (not shot down, just incompetence). That’s this year. Not in the distant past. Just. This. Year.
But hey, once again Frosty shows he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and just wants to rub peopels faces in it.
BTW I wouldn’t bring up WW2, since you know, a) Russia wasn’t a country then, the Soviet Union was. b) The Soviet Union was on the same side as the Nazi’s for the first half of it. c) It only survived because American and Britain shipped it everything it needed.
Ha funny. Remind the world please of the Royal family in 1935. Quite close to their nazi friends in Berlin no? Admit it, the UK is the lap dog of America. brexit was a stab in europen peace and the UK is worse for it. Division in Europe is in the hands of the UK as much as Russia.
Ah so only one small cry of what aboutism.
Hey you know what the UK didn’t do? Start an alliance with the Nazi’s and invade Poland. The Soviets fought on the same side as the Nazis. You can what about all you like but Britain declared war over the invasion of Poland. The Soviets joined in. They are not comparable.
Also lol. You know what an actual stab in the back of European Peace was? Invading Ukraine in 2022. And in 2014. And Georgia in 2008. You’re trying to act like a trade dispute is the same as a unprovoked invasion that has left mass graves of executed civilians, deported children, torture, mutilation and rape in it’s wake, and it’s frankly pathetic.
I don’t think I have ever read such a blatantly incorrect assessment of the UK in my life. But let me just set you straight on a few points here.
“Quite close to their nazi friends in Berlin no?”
The way you’ve written that reveals you’re not a Brit, as that sort of wording is exactly the same as my foreign family would use when trying to speak English with me.
I can see you’re getting increasingly riled by the spelling and grammar errors creping in.
My thoughts exactly he is getting flustered and angry!
Oh dear your getting angrier and angrier, don’t like being challenged by smarter and more informed posters do you. Never mind, you should be used to it by now.
Neither, it was the Soviet Union that defeated Germany.
Hi Jim, no it was all three allied powers, remove anyone and the story is a catastrophe for humanity. Remove Britain and Russia likely falls within the first year ( lend lease was huge from Britian to the Russia, 7500 aircraft and 5000 tanks at the time Russia was on the edge)..as well as no liberation of mainland Europe, remove Russia and the UK and US could not have liberate mainland Europe, removed the U.S. and Britain could not liberate mainland Europe…remove britain no liberation of mainland Europe..even if Russia had survived year one without lend lease..it could not have out produced and won against the whole of mainland Europe without Britian and the U.S. smashing Europes manufacturing infrastructure, stopping the third reichs access to oil and the world..and keeping a sizeable part of the third Reichs armies in the west.
Ah 50/60/70s tech and you’re comparing that to nowadays! Oh dear, with every post you verify how little you know and how angry and jealous you seem to be.
Not Russia.
Russia, the U.S. and Great Britain all won world War2. Remove any one of those protagonists and the third Reich would have probably won at best or at worst forced a stalemate and peace.
1) remove Great Britain and the third Reich would have gained access to the middle eastern oil fields as well as unrestricted access to the wider world…as its always done Britain bottled in a European great power ( the advantage of being a flank power). Britain also sent the following war aid to Russia 5218 tanks,7411 aircraft and 120million pounds worth of raw materials, plant, manufacturing equipment and food ( around 6 billions worth today’s money). So without the UK in the War Russia would very likely fallen as it would not have had time to regenerate its war losses without the supplies from the UK and US and Germany would have had access to the worlds resources. Finally without Britain the US could not enter the War in any meaningful way. The US forces could not act and have logistics tails from the US and without Britain’s forces the landings in Italy and France would have failed. Without Britian the war in Europe and Asia is lost. As Russia could not out produce Germany on its own and is isolated from the US.
2) Remove Russia from the war…Germany would not have needed to dedicate most of its armed forces to the Easter front, if it had focused on the British empire only it would have in the end probably won or at a minimum forced a stalemate, There could have been no in successful landings Europe without Russia taking most of the Road Reichs forces away.
2) Remove the U.S. from the war, even with the Russia and the Uk in the fight it’s likely that they would have hit a point of strategic exhaustion close or at the same time as Germany. Probably leading to a stalemate…the US lend lease to allies was worth around 700 billion in modern terms. The British empires resources on its own could never have launched the invasions of Italy and France. Also it was US production that overwhelmed the axis in manufacturing….the British empire and Germany were actually pretty well matched in manufacturing and…so Britain and the USSR did not overmatch the axis production that much.
simply put remove any one of the allies and you remove the conditions in place that created the allied victory and so you cannot say the US won the war or Russia won the war or Britain won the War…
But what you can say is that only one of those three actually had a choose of fighting the war or becoming an ally/being neutral with the axis…Russia was attacked by the Axis ( and at one point was an ally of the axis powers) as was the US.only the Britain chose to go to War. For me that is one of the things that will resonate through history, when all empires are measured for what they did, the British empire chose to effectively destroy itself in a fight it knew it was highly likely to loose against what it considered a profound evil.
So the real question is what would have happened if the UK has not declared war on Germany….and instead settled for co-existence with evil…the world would have been a dark place…in all likelihood Russia would have been swept from the map and Germany would have become a continental spanning power…America would have ended up facing Japan completely alone in the pacific, with a kriegsmarine at its door in the Atlantic…with no access or support from Britain and a defeated Russia….
But it’s all counter history and as much BS as say any one of the Allies won the war.
Awesome analysis. Thank you.
I’m probably being very naïve but how can the withdrawal from service of a craft which cost £5M when built and which only entered service a couple of years ago, result in a loss to the MoD of £36,317,000? Smells of creative accounting or outright incompetence?
I’m staggered at the losses sustained especially where the so called saviour, F35B, is concerned. The US have been flying this thing for years. Where’s the problem?
This particular document reminds me of a film from the 80’s, called the great rock and roll swindle. It appears to me that the government giveth with one hand to the mod, and steals back with the other.
Whenever any public body puts work out to tender, the potential ‘fraudsters’ all hike their prices up, precisely because it is a public body, assuming that they have lots of public money to squander. Defence contractors are no different.
The other issue here… so a ship, military base or whatever is to be scrapped or closed down by the MOD ergo HM government. So why does the MOD have to pay out millions from its budget, for these things to take place, that in many cases the government wanted them to do in the first place, in order to save money??
Why doesn’t the government pay out on claims made against them, by their own employees? MOD staff are ultimately paid for by the government… just wondering
May I respectfully request an update on Aeralis.
“Early withdrawal of CUTLASS from service – £36,317,000”
What is “CUTLASS”?
I think, and I may be wrong, it was an EOD Robot used by the RE.
Thank’s I google “ EOD Robot” and ended up with 📧
“The CUTLASS remotely controlled vehicle for explosive ordnance disposal was designed, developed and manufactured by Northrop Grumman in the U.K., and provides state-of-the-art capabilities for national security and resilience applications”
https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/releases/northrop-grumman-awarded-support-contract-from-uk-mod-for-cutlass-explosive-ordnance-disposal-unmanned-ground-vehicle#:~:text=The%20CUTLASS%20remotely%20controlled%20vehicle,national%20security%20and%20resilience%20applications.
Off hand I forget what replaced it.
Not sure – Gasket 3 ?
So this is an accounting depreciation write off.
Looks that way,
I thought the £300,000 limit on gifts was a typo so checked the accounts and it turns out it is correct.
I really want to be on the MoD’s Christmas list if they can give presents up to that value (though not the kind of unsolicited presents they send enemies of the realm, the type that might be laser guided, come down your chimney from 35,000ft and don’t need to be seasonal).
Anything fallen off prince of wales yet?