Earlier concern over the speculated cancellation of Astute boat number seven has been eased by a defence minister.

New defence procurement minister Guto Bebb informed MPs in a written statement:

“The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has received approval in principle from Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT) to recognise new contingent liabilities associated with the Astute Boat 7 ‘Whole Boat’ Contract.”

We understand that this announcement paves the way for the formal contract to be signed before the end of the financial year.

The scrapping of the seventh Astute Class submarine under construction had been “actively considered” it emerged earlier in the year. A leaked document seen by The Sunday Express stated senior officials read:

“In the long term the delay (or cancellation) will ease the pressure on manning, but we must not be seen to welcome this situation. Any loss of capability will impact on operations.”

Barrow MP John Woodcock said at the time:

“This leaked document is confirmation that scrapping Astute boat seven is being actively considered by the government. There is embarrassingly flawed logic within the decision but it shows just how much pressure there is to find any route out of the cash crisis that is gripping the MoD.”

Woodcock later tweeted:

“To be clear – we are not there yet. The defence secretary will clearly fight for the funds to cover the defence equipment programme, including boat 7. But the fact our submarine programme is under threat shows the terrible funding pressure being imposed by the Treasury.”

This comes not long after the fourth Astute class submarine, Audacious, which is being built by BAE Systems for the Royal Navy, completed her first ever dive.

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maurice10
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maurice10

Good news for Barrow and the UK. We need to keep this yard busy and sharp for the new ballistic boats.

Julian
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Julian

… and then after SSBN Barrow hopefully goes straight on to Astute replacement. Astute is a truly world-class boat and that was after the U.K. having to regenrate lost sub design and build capabilities so imagine, if things go to plan and we enter the Astute successor era with submarine design and build firing on all cylinders, how good that might be.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

i’ve still got the feeling that the albions going, wil be used to finance it

Jassy Spik
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Jassy Spik

Someone will knock sense into them before it comes to that.. By God lose Amphibious capability in the UK would be nothing less than ludicrous…

andy reeves
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andy reeves

i’d be a happier if the albions were armed, they are a disaster waiting to happen without them, what mandarine would answer to the headlines major unarmed’ navy ship sunk crew and 200 marines lost?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

astute? overpriced,overhyped unproved slow in comparison to its peers, leaky and prematurely rusting,oh, and jinxed far too slow to build, the swedish gotland conventional submarine cost just 100 million so for the same money as one astute, you could have 14 of them. and a more flexible ssk capability, plus nowaday diesels like the german 212 can stay submerged for three weeks! and the french scorpene only needs 27 to crew it.

kirk
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kirk

oh thank god.

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[…] post MoD announces it intends to order the seventh Astute class nuclear submarine appeared first on UK Defence […]

andy reeves
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andy reeves

waste of money, i’d rather see another t45

Ian
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Ian

Well, is this Williamson’s third victory (1 being separation of defence and security reviews, 2 the new defence review being non fiscally neutral) then he might just be the minister we’ve been waiting for.

Shows how far Gov has fallen though that not cancelling the seventh boat is considered a win.

Will he sneak an 8th into the review and is their enough capacity to build it if he could?

Callum
Guest
Callum

We technically don’t even have the funds for T31 sorted, finding an extra billion quid for another Astute would be nothing short of miraculous. Still, we can hope. Another option could be something like the T31 programme for submarines, either a light Astute (still nuclear, still with the same sensor suite, but with a reduced weapon, crew, and store supply, restricting them to the North Atlantic) or a diesel-electric boat (definitely less preferable capable, and we’d most likely be buying a foreign design, but they’d be much cheaper than even small nuclear boats). Honestly, if Williamson keeps actually demonstrating a… Read more »

Paul.P
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Paul.P

Spotted. Type 31 is the next funding battle.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

the astute account would buy a few, and be money better spent

Ben P
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Ben P

Type 31 is funded under the Type 26 program. This has been stated many times already…

David
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David

Hi Ben – what makes us believe Type 26 is fully funded to begin with?

Paul.P
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Paul.P

Would that be the 13 Type 26 program or the 8 or 6 program?

maurice10
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maurice10

Slow boiling the 7th Astute is ok with me, as long as the RN get it in the fullness of time.

David
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David

The current 8-hull program. I hate to be cynical but I believe precious little from the mouths of our politicians! I wouldn’t be at all surprised if later the thought of cancelling hulls 7 and/or 8 are floated around just like the Astute Boat 7.

Don
Guest
Don

The Astute size was part driven by having to accommodate the nuclear reactor. If you go for an Astute light would you be looking at the new reactor for the Successor . How would this affect the sizing of Astute light.
A few more subs are needed but there is no funding or sailors for them.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

the major export success that is the french scorpene a.i.p driven submarine is crewed by a huge 28 sailors

Chris
Guest
Chris

Astute Light? Where did you come up with that? Apart from the fact you’ve made it up how much savings do you think that would provide. And how small do you think you can make the crews on these boats withoit compromising watchkeeping and mission capabilities?

Don
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Don

No savings
Astute light is a non starter

Callum
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Callum

At no stage did I claim it was anything more than an idea. Its simply one possible solution to the fact that our current fleet of attack subs is insufficient for the amount of tasks we need them to perform. We need more hulls, and the simplest way of doing that is to build cheaper platforms (in the same vein as T31, which is what I initially suggested). Shockingly, I have no costings for something that is just a vague concept, but the general idea is that we could perhaps gain several more subs to bulk out the fleet. Even… Read more »

andy reeves
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andy reeves

will the type 31 happen or will it go the same way as the bristol class planned for, but never built? if we can find this kind of money why didn’t we stop the type 45 order for 12 type 45’s being slashed to 6? or the 13 type 26 dropping to 8?

Paul.P
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Paul.P

The process is simple I think. Think of a number of ships, N; now guess how much they will cost, X. Set up a budget B = N times X to cover all design 1/3 rd and manufacture 2/3rds costs over a 12 year program, say. After 4 years you have spent 1/3 of your budget in designing a more capable ship than you originally conceived that will cost 50% more to make. So now you have 2/3 of your budget left but can only afford to build half the number of ships. Terms and conditions apply. Numbers for illustration… Read more »

Jassy Spik
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Jassy Spik

An extra Astute is worth 20 type 31’s too itself.. The choice is simple

andy reeves
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andy reeves

and easier delivered, as long as the work gets spread about.

Lewis
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Lewis

Don’t new defense seceterys always ‘win’ a few funding battles when they start? Gives them credibility, then they stop pretending and the cuts start again. If in a year or two he’s still fighting tooth and nail for the armed forces and protecting the funding then I’ll take note. Double that and he’ll be the the best Defense secetery we’ve had since…ever. That’s how low the bar is. But this all feels like a foregone conclusion. We always get our hopes up with each new minster and it’s always the same. Somehow I doubt a man who’s spent his entire… Read more »

andy reeves
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andy reeves

is there anybody with the spine to do it? methinks not

sjb1968
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sjb1968

We won’t wait and we want eight. These are a frighteningly powerful weapon that keeps the UK still in the game of controlling the seaways if we need to. That is not to mention their land attack capability.

Ben P
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Ben P

Eight is never happening.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

good.

Jassy Spik
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Jassy Spik

10 Astute is needed.. 7 is Insufficient..

Peder
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Peder

That’s all there’s going to be Get over it!

andy reeves
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andy reeves

rubbish. i’d sooner see another t45

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

These boats trump every asset we possess save the carriers.
An 8th would be good but as one commentator here regularly reminds us even if it were ordered where are the crew coming from?
Uplift in personnel needed.

Callum
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Callum

Theres the crux of the issue: the RN is several thousand men short of what it really needs. At last count, we have several destroyers and frigates laid up not because of refits or money, but because there are no men to man them.

Ben P
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Ben P

1 frigate and 1 destroyer are laid up due to manpower shortages.

Ian
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Ian

Crewing is all part of the same funding crisis!

Enough funds for better pay, proper rotation, the right balance of missions, long enough alongside, better career ladder because growing not shrinking – list goes on.

Money sorts the crewing issue. End.

Mark L
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Mark L

True, but not quite “End”. Unemployment is low at the moment – recruitment always suffers in those circumstances.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

born in carlisle, made in the royal navy. is that the best they can come up with? its pathetic. that’s another area that needs fixing when i left (back in the days of steam) nobody ever asked me why i wanted to leave, they still don’t do it. if you don’t know why people are leaving, how do you address the issues? one obvious are for me, is the failed 1970’s styles married quarters. they look awful.imagine returning from time away to be met with a ‘to do’ list because the areas are not maintained.just left to decay. service families… Read more »

andy reeves
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andy reeves

true, so would all training establishments finishing courses on the same day allowing big drafts to the ships identified as being priority. sorting out the married quarters may help. did you know that sailors leaving the service are never asked why are you going? if you can’t identify the problem, you can’t fix it.

Gfor
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Gfor

Ben P. And one LPD, and one LPD, one Hydrographic ocean survey ship, RM numbers to RN, etc, etc.
There are many more issues that are kept quiet.

Gunbuster
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Gunbuster

Other at sea units are carrying Gaps in manpower on board. For redundancy during a conflict most Engineers double up on the equipment they are trained to maintain and look after. However from personal experience this is more and more the norm. Long term gaps are not filled and maintainers end up covering 2 or 3 jobs and the associated equipment. This leads to a huge work overload, no leave and the maintainer sticking their notice in and quitting the RN, which makes the gapping situation even worse. Money doesn’t sort out gapping. Engineers where recently offered a cash incentive… Read more »

andy reeves
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andy reeves

the effort to recruit is abysmal ‘made in the navy’ is pathetic

andy reeves
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andy reeves

poor manpower common sense is half the problem ships should be prioritised in order of who is needed to be operational. knowing in advance would help @drafty get sailors to the right place at the right time. also, if all training establishments ended training courses on the same date, there’d be a easy job of distribution.say, if a t45 needs 30 stokers to crew it then draft 30 from the end of their training. likewise all other branches

andy reeves
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andy reeves

if the ‘heads in the BAE catalogue lovers(and believers) would join the real world and see astute for what it is they’d hopefully think again astute is unproven,overpriced,overhyped too technical to operate, slow, in relation to its peers,leaking, and prematurely rusting on the inside 1.8 billion for one boat? madness especially while the russians are running around at will inside uk waters its ssk’s we need not astutes. i don’t believe everything that said about them. the type 45 was said to be the best of the best hindsight shows those’claims’ were unfounded and wrong. the diesel/AIP scorpene needs a… Read more »

Dan01
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Dan01

This is good news although a few more would be better. Maybe a mix of nuclear and diesel electric boats would be a good option. Considering how shallow the English channel and Mediterranean is.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

the ruskies manage well enough they’re everywhere and the u.k can do nothing about it. the money has already gone on white elephants like astute£1.8 billion for ONE astute taking 7 years to build is stupid. the M.O.D should swallow its pride and do what every other nation is doing.. buying other nations assets, take submarines for example, the australians are due to start retiring the excellent collins class boat. in exchange for an already slated for retirement t23 and a few’bob’ the u.k could quickly increase the submarine service.especially as THEY ARE ALREADY BUILT!

Paul.P
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Paul.P

Excellent news! Agree with posters who propose an eigth. Would be a fabulous morale boost and industrial stimulous. Might clash with construction plans for Successor?

Callum
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Callum

You’re correct. Unless I’m wrong, Barrow can build 3 submarines at a time (currently Anson, Agamemnon, and Ajax), so unless we somehow manage to keep the Vanguards serviceable even further past their sell by date (not advisable, or perhaps even possible given that they were designed with a 25 year service life), the Astute build is over. Of course, once Dreadnought is built, HMS Astute will be at the end of her intended service life, so hopefully the design for the Astute replacement will be done and we can go straight into the build for them before Barrow loses all… Read more »

sjb1968
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sjb1968

You guys are correct about capacity at Barrow but bearing in mind we have actually been paying a premium to BAE to build the Astutes slower than they actually would like to we might be able to up the build rate and sneak another one in the programme. However, the bigger concern is the lack of crews it would seem from recent reports. Personally, I would prefer 2-3 more Astutes we can actually use and only order three Dreadnoughts. The CASD has become a bit like the NHS, a sacred cow that can never be criticised or changed. I am… Read more »

andy reeves
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andy reeves

morale boost ? to us maybe, but to the serving sailors it wouldn’t mean a hoot a sailor is only interested in ships and where and what his next one will be, being told your next draft would be to an old’clapped out t23 wouldn’t get you jumping for joy, but a brand new t26 or 31 might people on here have no idea what they’re talking about.especially on manpower i’d guess 80% of people on here have, in real life never even seen a warship. but, because it means something personal to them, they throw their oar in i… Read more »

Paul
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Paul

You have to hope that ASW plays a strong part in the Review. Same with nearly aspect of defence but more Astutes and P-9s are needed.

Ben P
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Ben P

The review will at best, will be no cuts. Expecting extra submarines and P8s is not going to happen.

sjb1968
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sjb1968

Ben your right and I’m sure we all appreciate on here and sleep better knowing that the Red Arrows, Bear Skins, Cavalry and every other non warlike piece of expenditure will be safe from cuts. No sacred cows in the MOD that’s for sure and it will be an almost top to bottom review!

sjb1968
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sjb1968

Ben just in case you thought otherwise my sarcasm is not aimed at you.

Paul
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Paul

You’re right on subs but all of the noises coming from the MOD are optimistic around potential outcomes. The mood music has changed. I await the outcome with interest.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

review, no cuts are you on the columbian special flake/ of course there will be cuts, mergers are the ones i think we might soon see the s.a.s with the s.b.s the fleet air arm and the R.A.F. maybe they’ll do something really radical and do what the canadians and japanese did, and merge the bloody lot into a u.k defense force.

JL
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JL

Can Gurkhas sail boats? (Serious question)

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Nice one. Gurkha applications in the thousands so draft them to the RN!

Harry Bulpit
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Harry Bulpit

Will believe it when I see it. I know it’s controversial but I’d rather see the trident program scrapped and instead with the money saved build three more Astute and how ever many conventional subs we could afford with what’s left.

David Steeper
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Agree.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

ditto, but i still think astute is a lump of junk.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

astutes? may as well throw the money in pompey harbour

Mr J Bell
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Mr J Bell

Please can all talk of returning to conventionally powered subs stop. They do not have the high end capability or endurance astute class has. A German type 214 design would quickly lose in a sub Vs sub engagement with an astute class in anything other than shallow coastal waters. The Astute class is our best defence against Russia’s proliferation of new nuclear submarine designs. Agree with comments here we need 8 and we won’t wait. Or better still 10-11. Defence budget set in law at 3% of GDP and the nuclear deterrent removed from core defence budget and put back… Read more »

Mike Saul
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Mike Saul

Voyager can be modified with a boom for refuelling, I believe every nation that has ordered the A330MRT has this capability it’s just the UK is the odd one out.

Just a question of how much and does the contract with AirTanker allow it.

Harry Bulpit
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Harry Bulpit

Conventional subs have their benefits. Firstly there cheeper and safer to purchase and operate which makes them great for training. And as you say due to their ability to operate in shallow water and as they are quieter they can be used in coastal defence operation.

andy reeves
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andy reeves

far,far fewer to crew, and faster build, then at the end of their lives they can just be scrapped and not cost£18 million to keep mothballed

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the canadian victoria class conventional hmcs victoria (ex h.m.s upholder) ran ring around every submarine in the recent westpac exercises including an astute and scored kills better than all the other boats. the endurances of the gotlands, scorpenes etc would surprise many specially with A.IP they do 20 knots and stay under for over 30 days the german 212 is the best (lots of worthwhile videos on the net. its worth looking at. if only to dispel the gotta have nukes bunch

Mr Wattison
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Mr Wattison

Welcome a a sea going vessel named Ajax !!! It’s been a long time ?

Mike Saul
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Mike Saul

7 is the minimum given our global commitments. This should mean we have at least 2 deployed in peacetime.

Regards T31E funding it is my understanding that this will come out of the original T26 budget which assumed 13 T26 warships, this has now been to reduced to 8.

So bags of money available for T31E and other equipment!

Paul.P
Guest
Paul.P

I suspect what might have happened is that as a result of requirements drift and delays the 8 Type 26 Global Combat ships currently planned will cost what the original 13 ASW frigates were to have cost. In which case another 2 might have to be sacrificed to pay for 5 Type 31 unless the defence budget is increased. And the way the MOD contract worked HMS Forth is the first Tyoe 26!

Mike Saul
Guest
Mike Saul

The budget for the T26 project was around £11bn for 13 ships, I assume now that it’s only 8 that the total cost will be less than £11bn.

If not we are well and truly stuffed.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the rivers are more useless junk. the thais have shown what they could be their b2 river has a 76mm main gun two additional 30mm cannon aft of the bridge wings and a desire to fit martlet on them they designate them as corvettes.

John West
Guest
John West

Cautiously welcome the news that A7 is to be built.

Welcome any opportunity to see that photo at the top of the article – definitely in my top 10, along with Big Lizzie steaming away from Gibraltar.

Julian
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Julian

Re the picture at the top, I hadn’t noticed before but it’s interesting to see that the one on the left is presumably less advanced than the other two. Compare the hull shapes at the front, the one of the left has a sort of bump around the lower section whereas the other two are smooth. It looks as if there is a second layer of plating still to be applied to the one on the left (hence the scaffolding) whereas the other two have the front bit complete. It’s interesting to be able to see how that multiple skinning… Read more »

Rick O'Shea
Guest
Rick O'Shea

An 8th Astute would cost 1.5 billion plus, I would suggest 5 or 6 diesel electric boats is just what the UK need to get sub numbers back to where they should be. It is time the UK got into the AIP game as 7 subs is simply not enough

Paul.P
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Paul.P

Where would see them being deployed? Just asking.

Ian
Guest
Ian

I’m in favour of AIPs but only if there’s enough SSNs and there aren’t so the point is moot. As for deployment, all around the coast, channel, Falklands and no mentions how useful AIPs would be on escort duty of all sorts – plus use for training. As a blue water navy island nation, I would have 12 SSNs before investing in AIP. Japan is our only peer nation – she has 17 attack subs rising quickly to 22. We have 7. We are mad! France has 6 with five major land borders. I extra SSN for every French land… Read more »

Rick O'Shea
Guest
Rick O'Shea

UK EEZ mainly, allowing the Astutes to deploy globally. I would like to see Astute numbers in the teens but with the costs involved, it simply isn’t going to happen. The UK could enter the AIP game quickly and pretty cost effectively returning hull numbers into the teens in a pretty short space of time.

Chris
Guest
Chris

I think this is yet another example of people paying far too much attention to rumour, dodgy stories and ‘leaked information’ that has no source. We sadly live in a world of ‘instant information’ that people far too readily take as Gospel without question: “Well I saw it on Buzzfeed / Bacefook / Twatter so it must be true” And the Express has a bit of form is setting hounds running as part of its editorial policy (to which it is fully entitled unlike the BBC). However I am once again grateful to ‘NavyLookout’ for some factual explanation (even if… Read more »

OJ
Guest
OJ

I’m happy for people to pay attention to rumour, dodgy stories and ‘leaked information’ if it gives the public and MPs the opportunity to push back on these things before it’s too late.

We don’t know where it will lead but there is clearly a positive change of tone and tack on defense in both the government and parliament for the first time in decades.

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

Couple of things – if we are spending 2% of GDP on Defence that should be circa £52bn pa. (according to the Govt’s own figures), They have stated in the last treasury update they are spending £48bn pa. So there is a shortage there already of 4bn pa. Like the Carriers and T26 – costs of all these assets have been unduly inflated due to government decision making / mismanagement (depending on your viewpoint). T26 has taken over 15 years in design, CVF was delayed at a cost of over £1bn, Astutes slowed on numerous occasions instead of building more,… Read more »

David Steeper
Guest

Pacman GDP is about £2000bn so Defence is getting about £40bn aka 2.0%.

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

David – you are correct apologies – I have used the $ figure I think by mistake.

However the treasury are stating the defence budget for 2017 is £48bn (doesn’t say what is in it though)

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

I never tire of seeing that photo btw.. (industry and capability all in one pic)

Jack65
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Jack65

A7 go ahead good news. Now we need A8. Our submarine force is critically overstretched due to a shortage of boats and manpower. Decision to base all SSNs at Faslane just compounded the manpower problem.

Peder
Guest
Peder

Why does the UK need to keep up with Japan or indeed anyone else in submarine numbers? Who is the enemy?

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Why do other countries have Submarines?
Who is their enemy?
Are you suggesting other nations haver them and yet the UK cannot?

Chris shenton
Guest
Chris shenton

So that means Bulwark and Albion are going for sure

Paul.P
Guest
Paul.P

Albion’s annual running cost is more than double that of an Astute submarine.

Steve White
Guest
Steve White

What HMG seems to forget is that all the money that they invest in defence contracts in our country, goes straight back into the economy, and a whole lot of it goes straight back to the government in all kinds of taxes. This country cannot afford to buy cheaply.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the rest of the money goes to BAE and the foreign aid charity

Robert
Guest
Robert

I follow the Astute program with great interest but was alarmed to read boat 7 will be named ‘Agincourt’. Like a red rag to a bull, they should have a rethink on the name.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

RED RAG TO WHO? the french?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves
Ron
Guest
Ron

This is good news, however 7 large attack subs for the UK is not enough. The issue is as follows, two carrier battlegroups each will need one to two SSNs. If there was a war then both carrier groups will go to sea thats four SSNs. Then there is the boomer which will also I think have a SSN escort, thats five, we also have the Amphibious group which will aslo need a SSN thats six. We have nothing left as one will always be in for refit and repair. So what can we do about this, do we have… Read more »