NATO will further step up support for Ukraine, while strengthening the Alliance’s defence and deterrence and working to increase the protection of critical infrastructure, Secretary General Stoltenberg has said.

Speaking after a two-day meeting of Defence Ministers, Mr Stoltenberg praised the U.N. General Assembly’s condemnation of Russia’s attempted illegal annexation of four regions in Ukraine.
“This is a clear and strong message that Russia is isolated and that the world stands with Ukraine, he said, reiterating that NATO is not party to the conflict, but that Allies will continue to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

To further enhance Ukrainian defences, the Secretary General announced that NATO will soon provide Ukraine with hundreds of drone jammers for use against Russian and Iranian drones. Addressing Russia’s recent nuclear threats, the Secretary General made clear that President Putin’s nuclear rhetoric is dangerous and irresponsible and that any use of nuclear weapons by Russia would have “severe consequences”.

Ministers also took decisions to increase Allied stockpiles of munitions and to speed up the delivery of capabilities after months of Allied arms shipments to Ukraine. This involves  “providing industry with the long-term demand they need to boost production”, Mr Stoltenberg said.

Allies also agreed to further enhance the resilience of critical undersea and energy infrastructure. Following the sabotage on the Nord Stream pipelines, NATO doubled its presence in the Baltic and North Seas to 30 ships, supported by maritime patrol aircraft and undersea capabilities.

 

Lisa West
Lisa has a degree in Media & Communication from Glasgow Caledonian University and works with industry news, sifting through press releases in addition to moderating website comments.

123 COMMENTS

  1. Defending the cables will take an immense amount NATO capability; roosters coming home to roost on NATO countries who cut forces to the bone; stand still the UK, you’re as well.

    Task and Purpose has an interesting YouTube on the MRAP; The saffers had had an mrap for years – why oh why we could not replace snatch with these vehicles I never understood. However, the USMC put in an order and it ballooned as a tidal wave swamped US Army thinking on light mobility.

    However, Cappy makes a point. Did production go too far and the analogy is, what ordinance do we need to invest him? Would anyone argue against an increased amount of 155mm ammo?

    Should you not argue against an increase, how long should war stocks last? Do you fire the rounds off or semtex them in a pit? How much should our sustained capability increase? Who pays for it?

    Questions, questions.

    • It all comes to what kind of war you are going to fight and how long you need supplies to last versus how long and capable your production abilities are to meet your demand.
      War stocks need filled back up. Really for nato there needs to be at least 2 munitions factories for all members. 1 in America/Canada and a 2nd in Europe. Hopefully no matter the crisis 1 will always be available. More locations can also help but 2 is a minimum

      • It’s the problem.

        We really have an idea of the conflicts we are going to be involved, but, not the major one.

        Again on YouTube, China has openly said hosting US forces makes you, Australia, a target; don’t resist China.

        It took the Ukraine to burst Russia’s bubble, about time we learnt the lessons and took a bow and arrow to China’s.

        Stop investing in China, remove trade from China and as move to a more expensive couple of years, soak it up and starve China of money. Something, we singularly failed to do with Russia, until it was too late.

        • It’s unfortunate that the Aussies happen to reside in a tough neighborhood that is demonstrating a tendency to head South in an accelerating trend. They are participating in neighborhood watch groups, stocking up on personal weapons and ammo and trying to establish direct comm links w/ the global SWAT teams. Not certain what additional measures they can reasonably take. It is unfortunate that the Kiwis don’t appear to comprehend that an urban street gang is moving on the neighborhood.

          • If you look at the logistic problems Russia has moving more than 40 miles from a domestic railway head then image the difficult China would have getting anywhere near Australia. It’s easy to talk about the Indo pacific likes into the Euro Atlantic but it’s way bigger. Sydney to Beijing is 1500 Km further than Moscow to Washington DC. Unless a nation can take Indonesia or is Indonesia it’s very difficult to pose a real threat to Australia and that’s without having the USN and RN shooting at you.

          • Any country which has perfected the art form of creating artificial islands in SCS can be presumed to have a handle on logistics. Indonesia would not even qualify as a speed bump for ChiComs.

        • It’s how the west won the Cold War after all. It’s a shame, that China learnt the lessons of the Cold War: industry, access to raw materials and markets wins in geopolitics. The west being the winner just shrugged its shoulders and said “look see liberal democracy is the natural form of government…end of history job done”.

      • Thought there was an existing Treasury funding line to replenish munitions stocks donated to UKR? Believe the mid-November budget release will essentially lock in MoD pathway for remainder of this government’s tenure, either for good or ill. 🤔. DoD FY23 budget is presumed to breach $800B; should be able to purchase a few odds and ends.

      • I’d also like see some up-gunning of all surface vessels, make sure every ship has their full suite of offensive/defensive armaments besides EW and decoys.
        Extra 12-24 CAMM on the T45s, just 24 is weak and won’t mention AShMs/TLAMs. Hope that any T26 delays can be minimised and the T31 remains on schedule and the latter will need lots of new 57/40mm munition too.
        As FormerUSAF mentioned, Australia is in a bit of a “tough neighbourhood” but the Defence Dept here won’t shy away from muscling up if we have too.

      • Just 2 munitions factories for the 30 NATO members? There has got to be a lot more than that currently? Need to drill down a level of detail though. I am sure many NATO countries might have SAA factories but not necessarily factories for large arty rounds or missiles and smart weapons.

        • Not just 2. It’s at a minimum there needs to be 2 in locations that are unlikely your be attacked/overrun at the same time. One in Europe one in americas. That way one is always running to fill requirements.
          So the balance between Storage for conflict and production to keep up with demand has to be balanced. If you know the forces have 4 weeks of guns firing a set amount then to keep up with the intensity required x amount of ammo is needed in x time scale.
          The uk has a small arms factory that has the ability to scale up production when required. It can be seen as wasteful to have extra capacity being unused but as most of production is machine based the costs shouldn’t be huge. Running out of ammo would be much worse.

    • Snatch replacement? That makes the light swing a bit. Foxhound was fielded from 2012 as the Snatch replacement in the core programme (but also Huskys were purchased in the UOR programme around 2009). I guess you think Foxhound and Husky to be inferior to the ‘saffer MRAP’?

      • Oh wow! I read your previous thoughts with attention; how wrong I was.

        When did cesspit enter service?
        When did British Forces enter Afghanistan?
        Please, let me know how many Tom’s gave their lives to Brass incompetence?
        And you were Brass, has anyone offered you the Mess Webley, yet?

        • David, are you OK? What in my post caused you to take offence to such an extent?

          Cesspit? I am guessing you mean Snatch?  Wiki gives answers to your questions: “Snatch LR was a protected patrol vehicle based on the Land Rover Defender 110 chassis. It was developed in 1992 for use in Northern Ireland (not General War) for general patrolling. Fitted with CAMAC composite armour to offer the crew protection against kinetic energy projectiles and, to a very limited degree, against explosive devices.”

          It was developed and improved over the years and Snatch 2 was a clear improvement on the original vehicle. It was deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq instead of unarmoured LandRovers, as the army did not have any other wheeled Protected Mobility vehicles for liaison and recce.
          However its protection level was insufficient to deal with massive IEDs and RPGs, so the Brass worked on a twin track approach – to replace the vehicle by Foxhound in the core programme and to replace it more quickly in the UOR programme by Husky. MoD placed an order for 262 MXT Husky units in April 2009 and a further order for 89 in Sep 2010.

          British forces deployed to Helmand province in Afghanistan in May 2006, although there had been smaller deployments to the country since 2002.

          37 soldiers died in Snatch vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I am sure you would say that they were all lost due to Brass incompetence. Large numbers of soldiers died in other vehicles too.

          I was Brass? I left the army as a Major in 2009, and prior to that had no responsibility for fielding Snatch vehicles, which frankly were all the army had in the early days for recce/liasion/patrol, and they were quite quickly (as quickly as HM Treasury and politicians can act) replaced by better vehicles. Brass to me means an officer many ranks above Major.

          My Theatre experience – I ran Camp Bastion day-to day for a Colonel for 6 months. During my time, due to our very good security measures not one single soldier was killed in Bastion or the immediate surrounding hinterland. I protected our soldiers with good TTP on Force Protection within my boundaries. What is your experience?

          I spent 6 months at Abbey Wood as PM UOR vehicles (as a civilian after I left the army) working to a military Programme Manager – we worked tirelessly to deliver more and more high quality, well protected UOR vehicles (and other kit) to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I do not see any reason to commmit suicide.

           

          • Sodding auto correct. I meant Casspir.

            I’ve confused you with another poster who held snr rank at Collie.

            As to what the Army had, they had the marketplace – Casspir was on the market.

            They also Chinnook, at least one until a certain HRH used it for gallivanting around country house parties, if we believe what we are told.

            I noted your experience, please except my apologies.

          • No, British forces were sadly under served by the Staff Officers and their COC, it led to avoidable deaths.

            Who has ever answered?

            We both know the answer: British dead.

            So b4 you go back slapping Daniele, pause, for just a moment.

            What could you have done better?

            Exemplo Ducemus.

          • Barry. I was appreciating Graham’s list of achievements and posts in his career, where I have zilch.

            No tag team back slapping involved.

  2. Millennium 7* has done a great video on Chinese airforce training. He says that 1300 people enter the system each year with roughly 650 making it out at the end. He provides amazing info. Nobody I’ve seen even comes close to the info he gets together.
    https://youtu.be/EN5ySqO1W98

  3. MoD has ordered 500 NLAW for delivery in 2023 to replenish stocks sent to Ukraine, a larger and longer timescale order is expected later this year.

    • That seems hopelessly insufficient considering we’ve exhausting the larger part of the 20000 (or so, I believe?) we had available to us prior to the Russia-Ukraine conflict. Plus, delivery in 2023 more likely means deliveries begin in late 2023 and finish in early to mid 2024… which looking at the pace of things will be well after a major war could start.

      • Whats the availability of the systems? Its easy to complain about it and say we should order 15,000, if only 500 are available then what do we do?

    • Why in 2023?! Can’t they try for batch 1 by the end of this year and remaining batches asap in 2023? Seriously, you can’t fight with fresh air and a flag!

        • All sounds a bit slack but nothing on Ajax!! Lol!! Let’s hope alls well end well for both!
          Pom’s still going okay in the T20 🏏 still, just!

          • I was watching the game between Bangladesh and Pakistan tonight; rather a disappointing start for the Bengali fielding… should’ve caught that ball easily. Reckon we should win semis though.

      • Can you explain that to the Treasury?

        Doris ‘got it’ and Hunt ‘sort of gets it’

        Unfortunately the only language Treasury understands is short term and developing good sounding arguments why solving long term problem is poor value.

        The elephant in the room is the NHS which is now at 44% of day-to-day government spend. Even the most ardent admirers of the NHS system will clearly say that throwing more money at it isn’t the solution. There is something very broken at the heart of the NHS.

        • I have absolutely no power to influence anything from here on my couch in a Sydney. Lol. 😆. Like the rest of us.
          But understand things like NHS and other social and economic priorities all have to be paid for alongside defence. 44% is a bloody huge piece of the pie though. There’s a lot of people squeezed into
          UK. Hope that 🇬🇧 pulls through to a brighter new year ahead.

        • That’s pure nonsense where did you get that figure? NHS spending this year is £136 billion verse government spending at £1,087 billion so the it’s around 13% of all government spending and about 18% of central government daily spending.

          All in its around 10% of GDP, the US spends 17% of GDP for partial cover.

          The only issue in the UK is the Tory’s have duped everyone in to thinking that you can get European levels of health care spending on US levels of taxation. Labour has to play along with the same game or it won’t get elected.

          Labour pretends you can tax the rich and the Torys pretend you can cut benefits to the poor but the reality is everyone just needs to pay a bit more.

          • The model is broken… as is the trust. I have no trust in NHS trusts, with multiple Trust Board members earning substantial sums. Just like Armed Forces Braid, the Trust Boards need culling.

            Now, tell me, how much would that put back into the budget, along with nationalising the railways, giving the high port to public private partnerships, all of which is anathema to this awful Con Govt?

          • Oh god no, I can actually remember how bad British Rail was before it was privatised. BR closed more railway lines than it ever opened, was constantly on strike, and was hopeless at offering a decent service.
            Yes some current private rail companies are almost as bad as BR, but most are way better.

          • In a rare moment of political ‘meeting of minds’, is was both Con and Lab ministers who closed lines, not British Rail Board members.

            Fast forward to 1994/5 and Sir Bob Reid was changing our railways for the better. Then came political dogma under Major, who privatised them and made the Rolling Stock Operating Company owners became millionaires overnight.

            Two names should stand out from this shambles and that is Adrian Shooter who levied private equity to create the modern Chiltern Line – you know, the one the Cons wanted to turn into a rolling bus way controlled by signals… aka, a railway.

            Branson, had an enormous impact on West Coast. Virgin pushed through the Pendis (I hate them) but at more than half the cost of the Hitachi 800 series… and made in England… I recognise the contribution he made.

            However, I remember reading that a MK1 bus shelter cost X, under privatised railways, it cost X*3 across the privatised railways.

            Today, even though most TOCs are under direct supervision of the Dept for Transport and Ministers and consequently, their purse strings; dogma and ideology has thwarted a pay settlement until, hopefully, last Friday.

            We shall see.

            We have a massive budget hole, it needs fixing, why do we still have delay attributed payments?

          • Thank you for proving my point.
            A nationalised railway is under the whim of politicians, who would rather spend money on things that get votes, like the NHS.

            Privatised railways only have one objective, profitability. Profits derive from giving the public what they want and will pay for. The vast majority of our rail infrastructure was built by private companies in the Victorian era.

            I’m not a huge fan of the Pendis, but they were better than what they replaced. And at least they worked, unlike BR’s doomed APT.

          • I have done no such thing. The current railways are under Govt control, several of them using Operator of Last Resort because privatisation failed. They have been for several years.

            Unfortunately, Victorian privatisation failed, think 1923 and grouping. Victorian infrastructure needed modernisation – now we come to the Tory invented “Regulatory Asset Base” Where the railway borrowed on the card, improved the asset base (added value) so could borrow more money on the card. All off government spending books until some clever folks pointed out the COC and the fact it was, government borrowing, fast forward adding £40Bn +/- to Tory induced debt; it’s never ending with this scandalous administration.

            As to the APT, it is the foundation for… the Pendis 🙂

            The Italians bought the tech, made it work and sold it back to us aka Pendis.

          • Yes you have proved my point, political meddling has adverse affected British industry time and time again. And the greatest opportunity for meddling is when an industry is nationalised.

            Privatisation hasn’t failed. Mainly rail companies had to be rescued because of the lockdowns the government enforced during the pandemic. These were the correct public health calls, but it meant the government had a responsibility to deal with the effects of those lockdowns.

            There was no ‘Victorian privatisation’, the companies were all privately owned. Uneconomical companies go under, profitable companies survive, that’s how capitalism works. Same applies to the rail industry.

            If you want to go into off-book government debt then you need to start with the Labour government’s use of PFIs…

            Public sector failed to get tilting train technology to work in the U.K.
            Sold what they knew to a private sector Italian company which got it to work and has a had a huge commercial success with it.
            Tells you all you need to know about public sector versus private sector competency.

          • I would tend to agree, there very few instances where people can point to the government (Tory or Labour)running something efficiently, anything government tends to suffer from bloating of resources and processes.

          • Unless you want to do some work on a line and then have to pay massive penalties. Network rail is government owned most of the trains are government owned. Other than the F&B I have a hard time seeing what’s privately done. Scotrail and LNER are the two services I use both government owned. Avanti is the only private one and they are currently running a service that’s so reduced it’s unusable.
            Almost all UK train companies privately operated are subsidiaries of government owned rail companies in other countries.

          • The train operating companies are privately run, with them either owning or leasing the trains – same as with airline industry.
            If you use East Coast mainline, then thanks to privatisation you have 3 choices; LNER, Grand Central, and Lumo. Yes LNER is currently run by the government, but hopefully returned to the private sector soon.

            Yes the National Socialists in Scotland have nationalised ScotRail. Let’s hope they don’t screw things up as badly as they did with Ferguson’s and the CalMac Ferries which they also own.

            Several rail companies have been saved by the government and are being operated by the government. This was a result of the pandemic when numbers plummeted making services uneconomical. That was a prudent move, and hopefully as with the banks, will make a profit on them when returning to the private sector.

          • I know a Trust board member personally and they get £10,000 a year. What are you on about? I work in the private sector and I would charge more than £10k a year to be a simple trustee much less a member of a health board. Non execs on FTSE boards get £60K a year.

          • Play the ball not the man. How many NHS Trusts are there? How many sit on the boards? How many hours do they put in?

          • Terribly sorry it isn’t nonsense.

            If you strip out all capital spend, pension spend and benefits that is what you get left with. It is a sobering statistic.

            I.E. it is 44% of the bit there is any choice over where it is spent.

            If you think it is nonsense please give a link to ONS or OBR numbers that are more accurate then.

          • The problem isn’t the NHS on its own. It’s partially the brilliant idea taken many years ago that training enough staff from entry level wasn’t required as much as it used to be.
            That worked for a while but as the current staff got on a bit, retired etc the staff levels fell. That was filled in partially by foreign staff joining. Then brexit sinks in and a lot of the Europeans stopped joining as much as before. Also some left to work else where.
            So how to fix it. Start by getting training abilities increased by Large numbers. Try to recruit foreign people skilled and unskilled that have a grasp of English language. Offer any migrant entering or waiting to enter a paid training place, leading to employment.
            Work out what are the top 5 reasons staff want to leave the NHS
            and try to fix them.
            Finally dealing with the backlog is a massive problem and may require more money, sending people abroad, setting up temporary clinics/services with help from foreign countries health services. These extra backlog clearing services can’t poach nhs staff.
            You can’t clear a backlog without extra capacity to process people. So even if the current NHS was set up to deal with every patient in a timely manner it’s not enough to clear waiting lists.

          • 😂😂😂 why would you strip our all those other things out, What logic would there be in stripping out benefit payments like pensions. You do realise that we can choose not to pay pensions or benefits like we can choose not to provide health care right? Both are technically discretionary but cutting pensions or benefits would be much easier than health care spending.

            Honestly you could strip out any amount of spendings to prove your point but you would still be wrong my figures are based on OBR/ONS, data where do you get yours? Dailymail?

          • This debate is pointless because you are not using the standard definitions of what is and isn’t current account spending.

            If you are going to make up metrics you can prove whatever you want to.

        • Hi supportive it’s not the nhs unfortunately it more fundamental that That. Every major ecconomy is stuffing the same issue of healthcare the US is now spending a few trillion dollars a year ( around 16-17% of its massive gdp) on healthcare.

          the only way to fix the NHS is to take it back to what it was mean to be. A “Health” service in which most of the effort was preventing ill health and managing when that did not work. So

          1) the wests model of letting its population destroy its own health and then keeping them alive for as long as possible is a model to having every bit of wealth in the western world used to support a feckless population ( in regards to managing their own health) in the last 30-40 years of life blighted by long term conditions. We have to actually get the population to stop giving itself diabetes and cardiovascular disease by its early 60s or just tell people sorry but we cannot afford to keep you alive until your 80s. This is the uncontrolled demand that has already effectively destroyed our health system.
          2) social care. This is the second big hammer…if you cannot move the demand of the long term conditions generations onto social care you break your health system a second time…around most of our District general hospitals have about 400 beds of those even before winter we have around 120-160 patients sitting in beds who have no criteria to reside ( they need social care not healthcare).

          when you add in the health policy of the last 20 years in the U.K. is to reduce beds and do care in the community ( which is actually more costly, but the U.K. tried to use it as a cost saving). Which means the NHS started in the pandemic with around 25-50% less hospital beds than other western systems as well as far less Drs and Nurse per 1000 population than other health systems you can see why it’s fucked and not giving good care.

          The simple truth is the majority of healthcare professionals are wanting to Jack it in as they are all being worked to death, knowing they are not able to give the care needed and people are suffering ( I assure you, knowing at any moment people could and are suffering awful outcomes and having sod all you can do it’s utterly destroying most staff). Nurses are just about to have their first ever national strike, it’s not really about money, they are simply done with it body and soul. As an example last year I simply walked up to my boss and told them I was not doing it anymore…I was not having my name attached to services I knew were failing and killing people, but I could do nothing about ( I could not magic more drs and nurses or beds, which is essentially the problem).

          As a last point the NHS has been just about the most lowest funded western health system for the last 70 years. The under funding equates to somthing like a 300billion pound of underspending…this has lead poor investment in buildings ( we still do healthcare in buildings that were workhouses ffs), lack of training in clinical staff ( we actual stopped training health visitors, until we remembered that they were all due to retire, we have never in any year trained the number of nurses, Drs and healthcare proffesionals we need as we simply went for the che option of steeling staff from developing nations).

          finally…politics..every few years a new government comes along and completely changes the management strustures. Health systems are the most complex systems ever developed by man, of you keep changing how you manage and run it every 5 years, your always going to have an incompetent system as it takes 5 years just to stitch all the bits back together ( its the structures of management working well that make sure this massively complex system, has the correct balance of funding for each service, reviews needs and ensures quality of services ( imagine how well the military would work if every five years, the way it was lead was fundamentally changed..to the extend of giving all the ships to the army and asking the navy to manage air defence..that’s the level of change that happens every five years in the NHS).

          The last bit about politics is honesty, the simple truth is we have refused to pay for what we have asked for…simply we Have pay 20% less than the average going rate for health care and even less for social care…and we wonder why the system has effectively gone bust ( in the NHS case that means we’ve run out of staff not money….i have money for services, but I can’t actually get anyone to provide them…all our providers say no we are done thankyou).

          Also remember the NHS does not exist you may think it does. It’s actually not a single organisation like the army or navy it’s actually many thousands of different companies ( partnerships, limited companies, PLCs, state owned organisations, charities etc etc). The NHS is a trade mark for those organisations that have a contract with the NHS ( which is a core organisations that pays and issues contracts). It was developed this way over the last 40 years so it was easy to sell bits off and create a market place.

          I would say it’s not the NHS that is broken it’s this nations understanding of healthcare and what is needed. Most people have not a clue the cost of healthcare (in the US is is over 20,000 dollars a year for a family….) so are we all willing to dedicate more to healthcare than the cost of our mortgages or food, because that’s what living a modern lifestyle and expecting to live into your 80s actually means. By not accepting that fact and living a lie and expecting we can have it all, we are in-factor causing harm ( although the very nature of healthcare is high risk and potentially deadly, that never goes away unfortunately, no matter what you do or are willing to spend).

          Thats the key problem you could spend everything on healthcare and it would still not manage demand ( the longer you keep a population alive the more they cost). We really need a national conversation about health prevention, what we actually can expect of a health system that only gets £3,000 per person to provide, how we will train the correct number of Drs and nurses,what we will do to stop social care needs clogging our small number of hospital beds as well as decoupling the operation of our health system from constant political interference.

          • one massive fundamental were all living longer, aging population less workers to pay tax and don’t agree with nhs recruitment abroad that is just a pyramid scheme. have thought increasingly elderly /vulnerable people living alone mostly have no support except from state or charities.

          • I Simon the problem with recruiting abroad is that is no longer working. It means you have to compete on the international wages market and we just don’t and cannot pay so most recruitment now goes to the US as they pay around twice as much for a nurse and up to 10 times for a consultation.

            There is also the other costs. The NHS actually survives on its very experienced staff. It from qualification takes five years to make a really effective staff nurse and around 10 for a specialist and even longer for an Advanced Practitioner. So you actually need to ensure your workforce is not heading home after a decade.

            finally we tend to train our health care professionals to work in a specific way. That’s true of all countries. A very good example is the NHS has aways provided all care for its inpatients, other systems do not and expect relatives or private Careers to undertake Personal care. This does not work for our country, where relatives do not come in and provide personal care, so we have over my time in healthcare seen a change in the paradigm of care over that last 20 years, as staffing became leaner, nurses became more focused on delivery of healthcare intervention over personal care and activities of daily living.

            finally it’s just not working as we have 100,000 vacancies.

          • It’s true but to a certain extent it’s a good thing, health care can cure more things than ever. If you ask me if I want another TV in my house, an extra holiday or better healthcare I will take the healthcare.

            As a consumer choice it’s worth more to me than other areas of consumption.

            The US has a massive problem with cost, corruption and special interests. The NHS by comparisons is one of the most efficient systems in the world according to the OECD.

            It’s under resourced though and it would be nice if there was viable private alternative in the UK to complement it because BUPA is a joke.

          • I had private health care whilst living overseas. It was around 110 quid a month and amazing service. I had tests and consultations that took 6 months here done in 1 day!! That’s efficiency. Here in the UK we base our view of private healthcare on Hollywood movies rather then countries where they have good working models.

            As for efficiency German doctors are incentivised by the numbers they treat! German health care is non governmental most funded from employee and employer contributions in to not for profit insurance funds. Can you image that debate in this country. We’ve made it impossible to debate/discuss the NHS objectively. That’s really bad for all of us.

            Loads of companies are willing to provide private healthcare to employees at all levels but the government taxes it as a benefit so people would rather take not take the hit on their wages. Given the huge pressure on the NHS seems a bit of self defeating tax, that raises very little tax and instead piles pressure on a stretched public service. But its a left vs right thing rather than applying any logic.

          • Hi expat, private healthcare is essential a risk based model based on your likelihood of needed treatment, if your fit health and with no long term conditions it’s cheap…if not your may was well be selling your house. Healthcare is never ever cheap no matter where in the world you live. As for Germany they have 4.5 Drs per 1000 people in the U.K. we have 3.5 Drs per thousand people so. I’m sorry you are incorrect in that they do have a state run system the that has mandatory contributions (GKV) this takes 14.6% of your gross salary ( 7.3% by you and 7.3% by employer) this provides a universal level of healthcare for all Germans. You can if you hit some specific criteria opt out I’d the German version of the national health system and have private health cover (GKV). All in Germany pays 11.1% of their GDP and this has been pretty constant figure, the U.K. has tended to come somewhere around 8-9.7% or GDP. Interestingly on 2020 and 2021 due to our covid lagging economy and extra investment in covid activity. But all in German pays around $3000 dollars a year per person vs the UKs $2230. That’s a £770 dollars less per year per person black hole, that is covered by having less staff trying to do more…and longer waiting times.

            What would happen if we asked all 60million people in the county to give an extra £500ish pounds a year to cover healthcare costs…… it’s not the NHS that at issue it’s our utter miss understanding of how much taking care of a western population to the level they expect costs.

          • Yes it’s risk bases but ultimately over your lifetime its balanced. However that still does account for the vastly better experience. It appeared to me the private system focused on.lower admon and throughput. I went in saw the consultant, quick chat then a nurse took me for tests, it seemed irrelevant whether I needed 1 test or all.5. All 5 were done, a kin to a production line ie you pass through that station as is more efficient than not to.. The tests were done quickly with what appeared to be modern kit. It became clear later the results were sent back electronically to the consultant who had reviewed them by the time saw him a gain. What the first test may have revealed the problem if it didn’t you then have a pile more admin to do the next test. Seemed to me they had done some decent value assessment on there processes.

            Germany health care is more government regulated than government run. There’s choices of which insurance provider you use for instance. They are also through put focused.

            As for funding its a more transparent system with it being mandatory insurance rather than cobble together funding from tax and NI. We have to remember 43% of people in the UK pay no tax, mainly because in the last 12 years the personal allowance has doubled from 6k to over 12k. 20% of 6k is about what you said we need to pay extra? Also let’s not forget Germans are a massive 30% more productive than us. Imagine tomorrow we had 30% more productivity with no increase In population. 30% more GDP = more tax revenues but no additional people to provide services for This is why the UKs flawed plan to grow by adding people is so wrong. Grow GDP with the resources we have will give us better everything. Grow GDP and start reducing your population then housing crisis is solved, we a get more time as there’s less queues and traffic, we get more open spaces, our nental health improves,our energy use drops as there’s less waste. Increasing productivity is the silver bullet if you want better services and higher defence spend.

          • Hi expat the problem is over your lifetime it’s not balanced almost all of your healthcare costs are at the end of your life. ( with a far bit at the very beginning). A younger fit adult costs almost nothing, maybe a go visit or an ED attendance now and then, even if they do break a leg it’s piss all money..That’s why you get lovely treatment from your private provider for very reasonable cost ( that younger to middle age is the cherry profit section of society).The problem is the western health systems are dealing with all the cases private healthcare would just not touch, that’s your older generation with long term conditions, if you have diabetes, heart failure and a bit of hypertension your costing the health system 20-30k per year easy and your going to live 4-6 years of that bang goes £200k then you add in the nursing and social care costs of around £75k per year and you have burnt a cool half A million pounds plus…if your cursed with a long term condition set that lasts for a decade that essentially burning a million pounds in care and health costs, private systems dump those patients very early on as they are not economic.

            So what you really need to look at in the private system your were in was what care are the poor elderly getting, because unless you have around half a million in spare cash or a state funded, sponsored system You will likely end up as one of those poor elderly ( this is where people get enamoured of Middle Eastern or US style health systems, lovely when you are young and fit, a nasty death when you are old and poor).

            as for Germany, sorry most people do not get to choose their Insurer, as most of the population are on GKV, which is mandatory state insurance ( there is choice of provider, just as the NHS gives you).

            As for clear funding…..only if you are part of the German population that is able to opt out of state mandated GKV ( over around 50k per year salary and some other reasons).

            Uk is clear funding, the government publish exactly how much money is given to the NHS every year, with every NHS organisation publishing public accounts.

            personally I don’t have a problem with a specific health based tax. But as a worker you are always going to be paying for others to get more healthcare than you and you will never know if you are going to put more in than you get out ( unlikely).

            For myself I would be very well off if we went to a private system, as pretty much every private insurance based system in the world pays about two to three times what the NHS does for my level of clinical and system knowledge. But the average member of the public would not be….

            All in all there is not a perfect healthcare system on the plant they all have their pluses and very big minuses, they are all awful at making mistakes and every system harms people hand over fist ( the NHS is actually one of the systems recognised as being on the safer side, with the US being on the very dangerous side), but all health systems are deadly and have never been able to make themselves safe ( just to complex).

            The NHS is just about the best at the following:

            cost effectiveness ( honestly all the studies show this, what we get for the money is significantly more than other western systems, apart from Newzland).

            Equity: we have one of the most Equitable systems.

            what we are bad at:
            speed (as we use waiting as a rationing method)
            health prevention ( but that’s a cultural thing)
            choice ( we don’t offer much, but as we are so cheap we have so many less Drs nurses and hospitals than other systems).

            you pays your money and takes your pick, we just don’t like paying much.

        • That claimed number needs to be treated with extreme care.

          That number is not even measured against Day to Day spend; it’s against that part of Day to Day spend which can be predicted in advance, which is around half half of Day to Day spend.

          The actual number is around 22% of all Government expenditure.

          And it is due to fall back a little in 2022, due I think to the one-offs on COVID not all being repeated.

          More info here:
          https://fullfact.org/health/44-percent-health-spending/

      • Well to be honest if you look at the history of the British empire, we actually managed quite a lot with little else than fresh air and a flag and a few men willing to wave that flag, take a risk and make some money.

        • That’s pretty much sums up the biggest empire in the history of the world. A few guys and a flag. I think at one point the east India company had like 12 administration staff in London and ran most of India.

          The British empire was mostly smoke and mirrors for a long time. Even the term empire was only used very late in its existence.

          • In 10,000 years time in the history books they will probably talk about the British/Anglo empire moving its capital from London to Washington in 1945 then back to London in 2042 after the USA breaks up. much the same way we view the Roman Empire in Constantinople as still be the empire of Cesar.

          • That’s a very good and interesting point as you could say from one point of view the US is an off shoot and continuation of the British empire.

        • Good reply. Very succinct! Your last reply was so long I need a nap to recover. Seriously though, very comprehensive. Private health cover here too is expensive for not that much in return. I’m paying over AUD4000 per year. Really feel AUD2000 would be fairer, but can’t do anything about the costs. If you want cover and don’t go private you get penalised in your tax return. And wages aren’t really going up either! Some companies are more generous than others.
          Okay, back to UK defence…where were we?

      • 10 years is about the usual life of a munition and the first UK builds came in in 2009. Certain Chips and parts etc may not even be made anymore by suppliers further down the supply chain .Original NLAW parts will probably have obsolescent issues. They will be, I guess be sorting out that with the new build.

        • That was always the case.

          With certain missile & comms systems, we both know, there were massive stocks of bespoke spares held ‘just in case!

        • NLAW is an international weapon when it comes to production. It has parts from Japan, Sweden, USA, Switzerland, uk and a few other locations.
          That may take time to sort out. Hopefully other systems won’t take so long to procure. If a majority of weapons do require a long build time, stocks will have to be increased across nato.

    • thank god we had NLAW and possibly what timing, were stocks near to end of shelf live and we gave generously to ukraine? if only poor putin had known what we had sitting in the warehouse. anyway, the Ukrainians have stuffed russian armour

      • And what armour they haven’t stuffed has been captured and now sports Ukrainian colours. They now have more T72s than they started the war with.

        • There is an article over on ‘Warzone the drive’, which gives a breakdown of tank losses in this conflict using independent data. It appears they captured some 490 odd T72s against some 380 odd that they started with, not counting all those that have been destroyed.

      • No quite the reverse it was a new weapon just being delivered to MOD and still in production. I think without a denser sized order they would not have made it which is why we ended up 20,000 of them. Thank god though.

  4. Am I the only one who’s started experiencing some dubious ads on this site; Ukrainian and Asian dating, some 18+ pic website, and a porn site masquerading as a shoe resale website?

  5. DB wrote:

    “”why oh why we could not replace snatch with these vehicles “”

    As I am led to beleive the SR was initially deployed by the Rock apes for patroling inside Bagram with the view they would never cross the wire, but that ruling appears to have been diluted over numerious Hericks , and hey presto we end up with dead squaddies. The SR were replaced by Huskeys but that didnt happen till around 2009. On the subject of MRAPS the UK was supposed to purchase the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle with an order placed in 2016, 6 years down the line in May 22, the MOD came out with this statement:
    British Army rules out JLTV acquisition
     The British Army has decided to not purchase the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV) under the Multi-Role Vehicle (Protected) (MRV-P) programme. Around five years after receiving approval from the US government to purchase Joint Light Tactical Vehicles (JLTV), the British Army has decided to not acquire these platforms under the Multi-Role Vehicle (Protected) (MRV-P) programme.
    A spokesperson for the UK MoD confirmed to Shephard that the army has ended the proposed MRV-P Package 1, which comprised acquisition of JLTVs. ‘This difficult decision took into consideration affordability and the requirement to deliver several major army programmes within the same period,’ the official stressed.
    
    Got to love the MOD with its pound foolish and penny shy way of thinking.

    • Bring back the humble Humber Pig. Swear those things would survive a nuclear blast. And it would be a great rival for “Ajax vibration syndrome”, but far cheaper and reliable 😉

  6. There are worrying reports that the US is urging Zelensky to ‘negotiate’ with Putin, on the argument that the West is starting to be war-weary. I hope this isn’t true !

    • The only way to do it is to get a big push on. Loads of stuff, loads of intel, bit like in the First Alemein in the desert. Shove and keep ‘em reeling back. They will collapse and that’s job done.
      Possibly..
      Unfortunately the longer it goes on..
      AA

    • Problem will increasingly be that the US and NATO have achieved their objectives in that Ukraine has been saved and the Russian army has been destroyed. However the costs keep going up exponentially. The Ukrainians are fired up for the war but they can only keep fighting it with western money and weapons. Is it worth completely tanking the European economy so Ukraine can get back Crimea? It will take years more and cost trillions and tens of thousands of life’s.

      • I don’t think Russia can go in much longer.

        Companies with less than 10% strength?

        1950’s weapons?

        NK munitions?

        They are totally desperate.

        It may well fall apart pretty soon. The cracks are appearing. People are starting to challenge the Putrid one.

        Wagner setting up a boiler plate office is quite something. Are they there to face off the FSB?

      • The assumption that if a peace deal was signed today, everything would return back to normal is false.
        Even if Russia’s sanctions were lifted immediately and everyone did business the same as 2021 the economies won’t recover straight away if at all. It won’t be possible to go back to business as normal.
        Russia can stop this at any time by going back to Russia.
        The uk economy seems to be going to suffer a bit in the next few years ( so the experts say). As the uk already spends too much and has done for a long time it’s a bad situation. The debt servicing cost is going up every day recently.
        Poland for example has been able to ramp up military spending, help for refugees etc due to having extra wiggle room with their budgets.

        • UK economy is not great but it’s Germany and Italy that are really f**ked. I agree even if things go back to the way they were they can’t go back to buying cheap Russian gas and Germany will have to de industrialise in heavy industry and petrochemicals.

          • France isn’t much better off with big problems getting the 50% of its NPPs back up and running. This has turned France from a net exporter to net importer of electricity leading to probable down power lines issues in at least Belgium and Switzerland.

            On energy supplies in Europe, apart from the high price, only Spain and Norway are sitting pretty and, to a lesser extent, us.

            Economically we are up Sh*t Creek with no paddle, I suspect that the budget on the 17th is going to be a huge shock to the country. We borrowed huge sums to cover Covid and we are borrowing more to subsidise energy this winter. Note “borrowing” its just like us personally putting this winter’s energy bills on a new credit card as the old ones are maxed out.

            It is too much now to ever repay so either it has to be inflated away or we default. Either way the good times we have experienced over the past decades have just come to a juddering and shattering halt.

          • Energy supplies …….

            Well, if there’s one unintended consequence for Russia following it’s war on Ukraine, it’s going to be the increased migration away from fossil fuels supplied by unstable dictatorships like Russia and onto domestic sources such as nuclear, renewables and probably hydrogen. Granted it will take a while, several years probably, there will be hardship imposed on vulnerable sectors, but when the transition is largely complete, Russia will be like a beta max video salesman in a world of streaming and downloads. They can keep their shite.

            I expect that your economic predictions are as accurate as your military summaries and forecasts. Your faux concern cons no one here, not even your handler Oleg. Your real sentiment is revealed in your gleeful sneering of the plight of ordinary Ukrainians.

          • His predictions are as accurate as a russkie mobilised vodka soaked peasant conscript convicted nonce criminal, on the ranges, with an AK at 400m…..Way off and laughable! Targets will fall (and get raped) when hit!!

          • The Russians have plenty of other customers for their gas.

            Not much predictions in my post, that’s mainly facts. I hope the predictions are wrong.

          • Thanks for the economic lecture, but don’t worry most of us understand the term “borrowing” in regard to personal finances! But, as you get the extra allowance, both winter allowance and the extra lump sum this winter, being a 76 year old Englishman living in MK you are a little more covered and we pay the extra back, in tax. Don’t worry, you don’t have to thank me, I’m willing to pay a little more to prevent Russian Nazi expansion in Ukraine and the caucuses, I’m sure you are as well? Anyway now we are chatting nicely any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

          • Not had the WFP and PCLP allowances yet, just the letter saying its £250 (its £159 more than last year) and that it will arrive this or next month. Then there is the £400 we all get on top.

            Surely we are paying much more than “a little more to prevent Russian Nazi expansion in Ukraine” when you take into account what the Government has shipped plus training, when added to the increased petrol/diesel costs and probable tripled home energy costs?

          • In WW2 we lost people, total families, towns, cities destroyed etc, this is now a “first world problem”, people may have to cut back on take outs, and eating out, not get the brand new 1400 quid I phone, pay a little more for mortgage/rents! It’s a spike, these things go up and down and will settle in 2 years or so! While not downplaying the relevant issues of cost rises, utilities etc, it’s still no way as bad as our last job of work to defeat the last batch oh Nazi scum! Today is no different, Russian Nazi scum threaten the west, simple! Anyway now we are chatting any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

      • Source is Daily Mail (yes, yes, I know, a bit of a left-wing rag).
        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11394623/US-pressuring-Zelensky-drop-ban-talks-Putin-negotiate-end-fighting.html

        Two tricky dates to bear in mind : 1. Next Tuesday, when the US midterms will probably give the GOP the House and possibly the Senate as well – and the GOP is reluctant to give Ukraine more money.

        2.January 3 2023, when the new Congress takes over, and probably cripples the Biden presidency.

        I’m very nervous about all this.

        • I think you’ll find it’s the extreme far right that have been against supporting Ukraine from the start, so I’m not surprised the Daily Facist would pick this up and run with it.
          (In social media the anti-vax, anti-WEF, flat-earther conspiracy fruitcakes are predominantly far-right and pro-Putin.)

          The GOP are being nuanced, they’re saying “no more blank cheques”, they’re not saying “no more cheques”. The GOP is the party of Ronald Reagan, the majority are hawks towards Russia, and it’s only the far-right anti-vax conspiracy fruitcakes like Rand Paul that have voted against support for the Ukraine.

          While I hope the Democrats retain their majorities, even if the Republicans take both houses I expect the USA will continue support for Ukraine.
          The biggest worry is if Republican wins encourage Trump, or some other extreme idiot, to become the Republican’s presidential candidate. I doubt Trump would have supported Ukraine to the extent Biden has.

    • That’s not quite right aiui.

      When I heard the reports, I think it urging him to express a willingness to hold talks, as a way of preventing less resolute NATO countries falling for Putin’s ‘willing to negotiate’ shtick.

      So to take away Putin’s manoeuvring room.

  7. We should be doing everything possible to help Ukraine win decisively. Our strategy should not merely be one of Russian containment in Donbass or the prolonging of the war until Russia (possibly/maybe) decides they’ve had enough. Neither Putin nor his likely successors are going to give in unless they are forced to.

    At the very least I think this means giving Ukraine the ability to carry the war more fully to Russia and Russian supply lines. Something like JASM / Storm Shadow / JSM / ATACMS would be a decent first step. i.e. conventional high precision weapons in the ~300-500 km range class. And, most importantly, we should not make public the fact that we have done it. Simply refuse to comment for operational security reasons.

    The longer this war continues the greater the economic damage to all of us and the higher the likelihood that China will elect for a military option against Taiwan. Worse case scenario would be China and North Korea acting militarily in Asia and Iran joining in to close the Gulf, whilst Russia continues in Ukraine. We should actively seek to prevent such a concurrence.

    • I saw a couple of SM posts saying that investigations are apparently underway to integrate Storm Shadow onto the Su-27, perhaps building on the knowledge gained with the HARM on the Mig-29.

        • New road sections are currently being wheeled into place so it will be back in operation before Christmas. A missile attack is very different to a truck bomb so your forecast would be interesting.

          • Check the news it does appear Storm Shadow is being integrated. So the Bridge will be high on the target list. There will be retribution on Ukraine but let’s honest it can’t get much worse for Ukraine so they’ve more to gain than loose.

          • There will be retribution on Ukraine but let’s honest it can’t get much worse for Ukraine so they’ve more to gain than loose.

            Exactly. Furthermore Russia, especially in recent days, seems to be dialling down the nuclear rhetoric and actively talking to the Whitehouse behind closed doors to mitigate the chance of nuclear escalation. Winter is fast approaching and Ukraine needs to be able to exacerbate Russian supply and logistics problems during this period as much as possible. As you say, the damage Russia is currently doing, and capable of doing, to Ukraine can’t get much worse without going nuclear which they are highly unlikely to do. It is perhaps fortunate that Putin wasted so much of his high precision long range weapons early in the war with little meaningful impact before deciding to go after civilian infra-structure like power stations etc in more recent weeks.

          • The problem for Ukraine is the Iranian SRBM that will arrive soon. But like I said Russia will use them anyway so Ukraine may as well use Storm Shadow if its available.

      • Good, do you have an issue with that? Ukrainian people and assets cobbling together very quick solutions to a Nazi invasion? Surely you approve, yes?

        • Excellent location for in depth product testing. We should learn a lot about the missiles’ ability to penetrate a proper AD system, so yes..

          • Not intended, I meant UK. We will then learn how vulnerable it is to Russian AD. Lots of data gathering by both sides.

    • Yep I agree Gareth. A firmer stance earlier on would’ve shortened the conflict & saved loads of Ukrainian & Russian deaths etc. We gave Putin too much wriggle room, stood too far off & only Ukrainian resolve has stopped them being steamrolled.

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