The first of the new medium-lift military helicopters for the UK is expected to enter service in January 2031, according to a written parliamentary answer from Defence Minister Luke Pollard.
Responding to a question from Conservative MP James Cartlidge, Pollard confirmed the timeline for the New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme following the government’s £1 billion contract award to Leonardo.
“The NMH Entry Into Service is expected in January 2031, with the first aircraft delivered in the summer of 2030,” Pollard said. “The final aircraft is expected to be delivered in the autumn of 2033, which is also when the equipment acquisition contract is expected to end.”
Under the programme, Leonardo will build 23 AW149 helicopters at its Yeovil facility in Somerset. The government said the contract secures thousands of jobs and establishes the site as a global centre for military helicopter production and exports.
Pollard said the financial structure of the programme remains unchanged from earlier negotiations. “The financial profile for NMH has not changed since the release of the Invitation To Negotiate in February 2024,” he said. “Approximately one third of the contract value is expected to be accounted for over the next three Financial Years.”
The AW149 is intended to replace several ageing aircraft types and consolidate multiple rotary-wing roles into a single platform. The helicopter is designed to support a wide range of missions including battlefield transport, disaster relief and other defence operations. According to Leonardo, the aircraft’s modern design and advanced avionics are intended to improve operational flexibility while simplifying logistics by replacing multiple helicopter types with a single medium-lift platform.
Wonderful.
Delivering “at pace” again here?
Are they on a go slow job retention scheme like the T26s while the RAF go without?
You guessed it mate, let’s forget the MIC can now rub their hands and start on the UK specific mods….
I call a balls up, 2035 delay and 18 ‘tops’ for the money…
Hang on…I thought 3,000 jobs were at stake? How long will they take to build the first one? Or do they start bits of multiple aircrsft?
Sandwich and light refreshment Steering Committee meetings first mate, then the UK MoD modifications, so moving shit about and adding even more shit.
Let’s not rush things, they have an expensive production line to build, then slowly assemble 5 or 6 a year.
Then comes the optional extras maritime pack, that will no doubt be another series of lengthy and expensive trails, followed by a return to the factory for rebuilding….
There’s ‘way’ more than a billion to get out of these suckers, they will take the right royal MIC!
Well, it’s not as if the World is on fire!
This has gone on so long I forget but does a final militarised version of this actually presently exist? I seem to remember when this solution was proposed (around when the dinosaurs died out) it was set out as building a military version of this commercial helicopter for the UK forces that if agreed would exclusively be built at Yeovil for home and export purposes. So as it’s only just been agreed are we still a launch customer (only present customer) of this machine and if so has it been properly turned into a matured design solution with prototypes or will they start re build a few commercial airframes now into the militarised version and see how it goes on the job?
Yes they do exist Poland,Thailand and Egypt are operating them!
One silver lining of this issue is the likelihood of similar-sized autonomous craft augmenting this fleet either before or shortly after. There has to be a ‘C’ change in procurement timings if the British forces are to match their European partners’ current rate.
We are apparently moving “at pace” to a war footing but thankfully all the Bad Guys have witten to HMG giving solemn promises not to do anything naughty until “the 2030’s”…so no problem.
Well, Ukraine are taking out Russia, and Trump is taking out Iran, so the MOD may be thinking we’ve nothing much to worry about for 10 years or so. You wouldn’t put it past them would you.
I fear it’s thinking of this kind that is indeed leading the internal discussions. Invent a load of fancy named programmes, institute a whole range of ‘expert’ committees to intervene and delay matters as suits along the way promote it all to the outside World as commitments to re-arm and hope by the time the programmes are expected to start producing something ready to procure, events will dictate it no longer necessary as Russia has ‘calmed down’ and Poland, Germany et al have re armed enough to be a sufficient bulwark. Then it’s just a committee to decide who’s mates run the most appropriate PR Agency to do the presentation of ‘victory’ in turning around our defence stance that’s fit to go in facing any ‘remnant’ threats from the likes of the Rutland Liberation Army.
A snails pace to nowhere under this hapless left wing clown heavy circus.
Geez if you think these are ‘Left Wing’ you will bust numerous arteries if the Greens and their ilk ever form a Govt. We will be lucky to retain a LEGO tank. Fact is we are a poor Country per Capita, small over populated with few natural resources and a Govt of any hue throwing balls at far too many holes. It’s like a fairground attraction with too few goldfish left to win. No Govt is willing to tell us the cuts that we need to make on benefits and the people are only happy to have cuts to benefits that don’t affect them or their kids or elderly parents.
Morning Spy, the fact remains we have a Chinese Army sized ( but substantially better payed) group of 18 to 25 year olds who do absolutely fu#k all, thats just the tip of the vast welfare iceberg.
Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of mobility cars, it just goes on…
A vast, bloated and growing welfare budget and a weak government thats paralysed with in action.
Ed Miliband, enough said there…
Plenty of money for defence, its a case of prioritising and for Labour, the priority is an overweight lazy 21 year old with ‘ issues’ who plays X Box all day instead of working.
A mate of mine has taken a job inspecting social housing stock work in the North West.
He does a lot of travelling and visits a lot of people, he’s been absolutely staggered at the amount of socially inept fat youngsters who sit playing console games all day long..
Indeed, they should ban consoles and force them to play on PC’s, they might actually learn some stuff
we cant cut benefits, labour needs the votes
Yup
Nice one, thank goodness America has a strong leader. Or we would be destroyed in the UK. And Starmer wants to fight Russia..the things people do to retain power.
Hiya DM , that;s a serous capability gap from the retirement of the Puma fleet in 2025 to wit to 2031. Poor planning and timing execution.
Hi Chris.
Just the latest in a long list.
At least we are getting something, eventually.
For just 23 cabs. The mind boggles
And the gap since the Puma was pulled will be longer than WW2…..
I make it about seven years from Puma out of service to the first of these being at IOC. Or is it longer?
Well 23 with that list of jobs they are supposed to do it’s not going to be long before they are knackerd🙄
So, they have simplified the logistics by having no helicopters at all! Brilliant!
On a more serious note, this schedule reveals just how low the NMH program was in the DIP priorities. It only happened because of the industrial job creation.
Paul….HMG have no interest in military capability, it’s always about the MIC and jobs.
This was called for what it is years ago, the priority is Westlands, not that the RAF have no medium helicopter capability till the 2030s.
I’m amazed at how many continue to scratch their heads in surprise that HMG are sincere.
It was always about protecting jobs at Wastelands.
Everyone wanted the UH-60, the various UH-60 tenders blew everyone else’s out of the water – so the tender terms were changed to de facto write the UH-60 out of contention..
actually people on here have been saying how much more expensive the blackhawk was. Doesnt really matter as the pulled there offer. Lets be fair the forces always want to follow the USA and have the cool kit
Deja vu. It’s an action replay of the events in the mid 80’s which resulted in Michael Heseltine resigning from Thatcher’s government. He wanted a European deal, she wanted a US deal. Look like he’s got his wish at last 😂
Might have been more stable if he had got his way back then.
I don’t think Thatcher ‘did’ stability 😅 but she was in charge and the boss is always ‘right’ so he had to go.
This deal has taken a long time to negotiate; not helped by the UK not having a lot to spend. Pollard is saying things like ‘ we took a long time to get it right’. I’m hopeful this means a solid future for Yeovil after decades of uncertainty. The govt must have offered Leonardo something substantial for them not to pull out and concentrate manufacture elsewhere. I wonder if Yeovil was not in fact competing with Poland for AW149 manufacture. But the tough negotiations will have built a strong relationship with Leonardo. I’d say it makes the M346 strong favourite for the Hawk replacement.
There was a very prescient article in the FT a few weeks ago questioning why the politicians and also the press always talk about inputs, ie x% increase to the available budget. What they don’t talk about is what the outputs are, such as what capabilities are we adding or increasing, or in this case what capabilities are we gapping, doing without, and for how long. I bet you can completely flummox a politician by trying to explain what medium lift actually is and what a seven or more year gap means to the Army.
Very much so. They hide behind their lethality and keeping us safe statements without a clue what they are talking about.
As for getting them to tell you what % of the Defence budget goes on conventional military capability, I don’t think they’ve ever said, as that would expose them.
Al Carns is of course an exception, a very impressive CV for him.
Capability is never mentioned, other than the awfully trite phrase “ punching above our weight”. I wish every politico who uttered that silly mantra had been shipped off to Afghan to hear real bullets overhead.
As I have said before on this site my late mother, died aged 96, was treated as part of the defence budget by virtue of her widows pension from my father. I’m sure no one would begrudge her that benefit but to count pensions as part of the overall budget just massages the figures and contributes nothing to the front line.
I guess they have to get the Yeovil production line set up first with new jigs etc and train up the workforce on the specifics of AW-149, so an influx of design, engineering and training staff from Verigate. And then build and test a UK prototype or two, before series construction kicks off. That said, nearly 5 years to deliver the first one seems a bit extended. We don’t of course know how many changes to the specs the MOD has stipulated, which could complicate the timescale. It may be that the MOD have to slow things down to fit in the cost of the extended range Chinooks, which are coming to £1.5bn.
The production timetable over three years is pretty good, 7 helis a year is the top end of the rotary procurementc budget, which is particularly meagre.
So not bad really in the real world.
Actually , it’s utter horlicks.
You could ring up the US and order 23 UH-60’s as a direct FMS transfer and have them all in service in 12 months – with spares, support and training.
Yep, absolutely this, sod all to with helicopters, everything to do with keeping a factory open, an Italian owned factory, producing Italian helicopters at that!
Is the Mafia involved, did Ratchel from accounts find a horses head in her bed???
but then what happens in a shooting war when we need more or they need repairs? The US wont help as like during covid everyone looks after them selves
We need our own capability to repair and build
JM,
Pardon, requesting an explanation of the term “Horlicks”. Google states “Horlicks is a nutrient dense malted milk drink …” Perhaps a different slang definition? My UK to US English dictionary obviously needs to be updated.
I’m not sure what they are supposed to be doing at Yeovil. The cabin hull and tail boom are manufactured in Poland. From what I understood, Yeovil would only be doing final assembly.
Transmissions for AW149 (and several other models) are built & tested at Yeovil. Leonardo put a lot of investment into the facility.
PATHETIC….AGAIN.
They will get cancelled at some point in the next 5 years –
Yep!
And the MOD will probably still pay for them due to poor contract language!
Help, can some please explain to me why a helicopter that is in production will take until 2031 to get to the RAF. Yeovil has a skilled work force. They are able to build what is in reality a development of the Lynx. Before people scream at me just look at the lines of the AW 149, it looks like a stretched Lynx. |So why?
However, thankfully the MoD have signed a contract, I do wish for more but a bird in the hand is better than nowt.
Some will say payment schedules, however the contract price is agreed, so why can’t the company just build at speed and get monies later. God, 100 years ago companies built battleships on the promise of contract, even Vosper built the T21 on spec.
Because the MoD cant wait to add a whole range of very expensive UK specific mods, that will mean endless trails, glitches and fixes, glitches and fixes, in an endless vicious circle of out of control spending. Eventually your fixed price contract buys you 16 or 18 pointless cabs.
Welcome to your next Ajax shit show Ron.
Its pathetic.
No sovereign nation is comfortable putting its pilots or soldiers in a machine that is entirely managed, coded, and monitored by a foreign entity, especially when it comes to the nervous system of the aircraft.
Every military has its own interoperability language. If the UK buys a helicopter from Italy, it doesn’t speak the same radio frequency language as a British Royal Navy frigate. You have to rip out the factory-standard communications suite and put in your own to make it talk to your other kit.
Nations demand the right to control their own cryptographic keys. If the factory-standard radio uses software you can’t inspect, your enemy might be able to intercept your communications. This is why you see countries replacing the “brains” of imported aircraft with their own national equivalents.
If a country (UK) has developed its own defensive systems, like a superior radar-warning receiver or a specific way to jam enemy missiles, they are going to insist that their new fleet carries that specific gear, not the generic equipment the manufacturer usually installs.
You’re suffering from Ajax PTSD. The reason Ajax was a disaster wasn’t because they added modifications; it was because the scale of modifications were so extreme that it practically turned the vehicle into something entirely new. The AW149 is a proven machine, adding a British radio or British sensors isn’t “pathetic”, it’s a requirement of basic national sovereignty. The risk isn’t that they are adding their own secret sauce, it’s whether the MoD has the discipline to stop at a light sprinkle, or if they’re going to drown the whole thing in customisation until it’s unrecognisable and broken.
💯👍🏻
Ah, you think they will stop at changing the radios?
Think again, you clearly don’t understand the MoDs appetite for tinkering, or the MIC’s ability to extract every last penny from the tax payer.
A ‘proven’ design, proven by who?
That suggests a support helicopter thats seen extensive sevice with operators in all environments, that has seen and successfully passed the acid test of operational use in combat and not found wanting.
Is it capable of sustaining small arms damage and being turned around in the field as the Blackhawk was, again and again in Afghanistan?
Is it ‘fully’ maritime capable and deployable at sea?
I think you are kidding yourself that this isn’t somehow a purely politically mandated procurement, with little to nothing to do with operational requirements.
Absolutely no-one in the Armed Forces who operates helos or uses them has requested the AW149, I can assure you of that.
Another late shit show of a procurement, sadly I have little doubt about that.
“MIC’s ability to extract every last penny from the tax payer” LM are no better then any of the others TBH
Why are you so angry?
The AW149 is not a “prototype” or an experimental machine; it is a thoroughly engineered, globally adopted military helicopter. If you are worried that it is an “untested” platform, the consensus among defense analysts is that it is a sound, low-risk choice that offers modern performance and safety features that older platforms cannot match.
It hasn’t been “combat proven” in the sense of a massive, long-term war, but it is “operationally proven” as a robust, safe, and highly capable medium-lift platform that is currently fulfilling its mission requirements for several national militaries.
The AW149 is engineered to modern military survivability standards specifically to counter that threat. It features ballistic-tolerant main and tail rotor blades (tested against 12.7mm rounds). It utilises “safe separation” of critical systems to ensure that a single strike doesn’t disable the entire aircraft. It includes a 50-minute “run-dry” main gearbox, which is a critical survivability feature designed to allow the crew to escape a ‘hot’ zone even after a catastrophic oil system failure caused by gunfire.
However, being engineered to survive is not the same as having the decades of battlefield-hardened logistical support that the Black Hawk possesses.
While it is a marinised airframe, meaning it features corrosion-resistant materials and treatments for operation in salt-air environments, it is a utility platform, not a dedicated anti-submarine or anti-surface warfare aircraft. It is designed to operate from decks, supporting SAR, transport, and logistics, but it does not carry the complex sensor suites or integrated mission systems found on specialized naval helicopters like the Merlin or Wildcat.
The last factory argument, Yeovil is the UK’s final end-to-end helicopter design and manufacturing facility. Leonardo executives were explicit, without the NMH contract, the factory faced potential closure. Losing Yeovil would have meant losing the domestic capability to design, build, and maintain military helicopters. The UK would have become entirely dependent on foreign supply chains, specifically from the US for its future fleet.
The gov. made a calculated trade-off and a strategic choice … by buying the AW149, they accepted a platform that many military operators ‘didn’t explicitly request’ in favor of securing 3,000 direct jobs, supporting 12,000 plus jobs in the supply chain, and maintaining a sovereign industrial capability that the UK government deemed too strategic to let die.
Just a note on why the MIC extract every last penny from the tax payer. The legal obligation of directors is to act in the “best interests of the company.” extracting profits is seen as in the best interests of the company. Profit is the oxygen the business needs to function and continue attracting investment. If a company fails to be profitable, it will eventually cease to exist, not necessarily because the directors broke the law, but because the market will no longer provide the capital required to run the operation. This is business 101. Accusing them of not doing their job properly is rather silly. The Gov. are all grown up and know whats what, it’s just that they don’t have the quality of ’staff’ compared to ‘big’ corporations.
Defence Primes are profit-seeking entities. Their legal and commercial teams are incentivised to shift risk onto the MoD, protect intellectual property (IP), and maximise margins through long-term support contracts. They have the resources to employ the top tier of the legal and commercial consulting market.
The MoD mindset is different. The MoD commercial function is often incentivised to prioritise procedure and auditability over aggressive commercial negotiation. The primary goal is often to ensure the procurement process complies with strict government regulations (like the Procurement Act 2023) to avoid a ‘Public Accounts Committee’ scandal. This bureaucratic focus can inadvertently make them more cautious and less effective at driving a hard commercial bargain.
There is an inherent temptation in UK procurement to gold-plate requirements, adding bespoke British sensors, communication systems, or electronic warfare suites that aren’t on the standard international version. As I said IF the UK adds too many UK-unique features to their 23 aircraft, they risk creating a mini-AH1 situation where they are once again isolated from a global support network, in this case, AW149. You think its gonna happen, I don’t blame you going on past situations. I don’t think it will, but I cant see the future.
–
The trouble with some elements within the Navy, Air force, Army and MoD is their arrogance, the up-them-selves; sneering type, (I know the types well enough) who think that they’re better than johnny-foreigner … they’re certainly not!
Yes, yes, yes, that’s all well and good but …..is it any good…. 😉
It’s a bit slow to be honest.. if you look at Poland it took them 2 years to set up the production line and then 1 year from that for the first AW149 to be domesticity built… so contract in 2022.. production started in 2024 first of the line 2025.. if you want an Italian built model you can have one in 15 months.. so Real of the MOD were serious they could say get 4 delivered from Italy in 2027.. use these to bring it into IOC for 2029 have number 5 off the line in 29.that way you would have squadron 1 firmly on place by 2030.
As is I doubt the MOD even has the first bit of cash ready until 2027 at the earliest..
If they’re going to be this slow with these 23 helos how slow will they then be with other purchases? And they want exports for UK Industry? Need to lift their game here. Be a better example of what can de done and get it done.
Politics. The drag things out into the next Parliament and into someone else’s financial problem?
Then when the cuts and reductions arrive as the next government tries to balance the books, wail, scream, and say the opposite of what they’re doing now.
Tories did it 97 to 2010 when the forces were being run down, came into power, and did the opposite.
Labour now talked endlessly of hollowing out in opposition.
There’s little left to cut without just giving up, but they found a few morsals. Now, shove as many non conventional military budget lines into the Defence budget, delay for all they are worth, and voila!
Just as Osborne did post 2010.
Yes….I stand by my opinion, utter Scum.
Well said Mate – a good summary
There will be no exports, absolutely guaranteed.
Our AW149’s will be an order of magnitude more expensive than Italian made examples.
That’s assuming Leonardo haven’t worked in a no exports clause anyway.
Interesting comparison. Just I’d been “talked round” into accepting this instead of BH, they drop this little beauty with the timeline.
I, in my ignorance, assumed Yeovil were already building some for other nations, I didn’t realise they’ve not flipping even set up yet!
O’d stand by my original analysis, despite the long discussed sovereign benefits the military have been placed last, yet again.
Sadly it all comes to treasury again.. because these should have been ordered 5 years ago…… the incompetence of HMG to ensure the defences of the UK are staggering..
In a previous existence I had a good go at talking to a pretty senior civil servant about the national interest and strategic value of maintaining UK maritime capabilities (shipbuilding, shipowning, marine engineering). We are after all a bunch of islands totally dependent on these things for just about everything. I got precisely nowhere, in fact got a slightly sniffy lecture that ensuring those national capabilities was not part of his or anybody else’s remit. I don’t think that attitudes in government have learned anything in subsequent years despite all the free wakeup calls.
What happens after 2031 when the NMH aircraft are delivered? Will Yeovil and these thousands of jobs be dependent on foreign AW149 orders? Or Proteus?
Or are we just kicking a decision down the road?
I did read that the medium heli market is going to be big as a number of air forces round the world will need to refresh their fleets in the coming years, and it would be great if Leonardo for Europe could capitalise on that after the disaster of NH90. So maybe AW149 could be the real deal and Yeovil will be at the heart of it.
But the time taken to make this decision has been too long and the delivery schedule is absurd and dangerous – the deployment of RN Merlin Crowsnest helis to Cyprus (self-deploying across Europe!) is evidence of what happens when Govt drags its feet on procurement and allows a capability gap to emerge when existing assets are retired before replacement.
If maintaining Yeovil is strategically imporant (which is fair enough) then perhaps ordering a new wave of Merlins is more practical, to replace the original lot that have been in service for 25 years already, and let the RAF/Army have foreign built Blackhawks asap for NMH.
Certainly in the field of ASW, Merlin is the world leader, and the Mk4 is prob the best choice for the RN’s utility needs. And because this would be an order for replacements of airframes that will run out of hours in the years ahead, the delivery schedule (and payments) could be spread over a sufficiently long time to provide stable work for the workforce. And with slack in the system, any foreign orders (from Norway, for example) could be expedited without impacting the UK deliveries, so avoiding the T26 conundrum where we need ours asap but we also want to sell units to foreign customers at the same time.
It would also mean the RN would be flying new build aircraft to the 2050s rather than working hard to keep refurb airframes going for far longer than anyone ever intended and finding out the hard way (again) that no amount of duct tape and plumbers mait will keep an aircraft flying or a ship floating…
Assume rotary UAV, and hopefully more real helicopters!
I don’t think HMG think long term, or strategically, like China do, they’re only worried about the optics on jobs now.
2030s, someone else’s problem.
The military mate?? What’s it got to do with them!
Hi John, Maybe you are right. If you are it means that the Request for Proposal is not very good.
When I was doing my job I wrote many RFPs and companies used to complain about the amount of detail that was in there. My method was you did not meet the standard you did not go to the next stage. For a simple PBX it would be 150 pages of tech specs, for a public network my biggest RFP was about 4000 pages, all the way down to the metals to be used and the screws to be sized. These were million, hundred million contracts so not small, either I got the RFP right or I was out of a job or in some cases in jail (communication infrastructure in some countries is national security and punishable under the treason or espionage laws) never went to jail emm almost once but my project manager diary saved me but IAI was thrown out for the country for five years.
So not the billions but when you have hundreds of millions or billions there is no diffrence for the project manager you have been picked to do the job and your head, well at least my head was on the line. I’ve had arguements with directors who I suspected of being paid by companies to water down the RFPs, stand up in front of directors and investors and show that half a billion is being lied about. Got stick from the directors but supported by the investors who were IAI.
So all I am trying to say is this, get the specs right and the price right a company can build much quicker that what they say. Many European companies can get government loans with no intrest for this type of work, Italy, Germany and France do this all the time, I know I have used those systems. I have also seen the diffrence between the UK and Europe, example, I needed a central office exchange and a main distribution frame to get a project on track. The contract was as yet not signed but I knew it would be in a few months. I phone someone I knew in Alcatel to get some kit I knew was laying around doing nothing and got it signed over to me to get the job done on time. Caused some trouble with my bosses but the investor laughed their heads off. See the diffrence.
Now I come back to the original question, if the contrat is signed it means the spec has been agreed, so why cant the company build these helicopters at a economical speed to get them into the fleet.
So if the contract states what is required (tech spec) then we should get what we want. If we do not spec the kit correctly then we have an issue in the MoD.
Did they benchmark for anything against the Polish AW149s? Is it exactly the same helicopter?
That’s an interesting question, I had forgotten about the Polish order. I do remember Leonardo claiming originally if we went with thus platform we would be the hub for all militarised 149s throughout the World. Clearly time has moved on and delays made that impractical. But it seems delays end up cost us dear in terms of added cost be it financially or productively. But as others have said putting off these added costs to following Govts is far more important than investment now for a better future. Any investment becomes desperate interventions to save jobs those delays from previous Govts have eventually threatened. Talk about back to the future, the swinging 60s are making a come back it seems, or did they ever go away outside of Thatcher doing her very own form of industrial damage.
Jonathan, the primary goal of the NMH contract wasn’t just to get helicopters; it was to keep the Yeovil factory open.
Ron, the Civil Service and the MoD do not function on personal accountability for outcomes; they function on compliance with process.
You said, “If you do not spec the kit correctly, then we have an issue in the MoD” and your 100% right. The UK’s procurement history is littered with requirements creep, where the MoD keeps adding specs, changing the design, or requesting gold-plated features, which blows up the budget and the timeline.
The reason they don’t move “at pace” like you did at Alcatel is that the MoD is legally required to follow the Public Contracts Regulations. If they deviate to get a better result, even if it’s the sensible thing to do, they risk a legal challenge from rival companies that could freeze the entire project for years.
You are also ignoring the fact that the MoD isn’t a business. It’s a government department that is currently acting as a jobs program, an industrial policy setter, and a military equipment buyer all at once.
You are seeing the operational reality clash with political reality.
Instructive post. Thx. I believe the deal involves funding for work on the Proteus drone and ‘unofficial sources’ are hinting at a follow on order. What with the investment in the site and job creation not a bad deal I think. In the meantime helicopter lifts will be Wildcat / Chinook.
Hi Paul. Which unofficial sources please?
And where is the order from Norway?
I’ve lost the link, which was itself not attributed. Engineering and Technology magazinec report +ve comments from Leonardo’s Cingolani- ‘industrial base in the UK is core to our international strategy ..’ .etc Just have to wait to see how things pan out now. The whole saga does confirm your perspective that the govt priority or at least condition is that the solution to the requirement had to support their industrial strategy. It seems rotocraft is still regarded as one of the technologies where the govt view is that we should have sovereign capability.
Thanks.
After reading all these comments it dawned on this old fellow that the 3000 jobs are not at Westlands as most of them already exist. But in the MOD tea and stickies meetings committees, as well as the MPs being protected because they are out for the day from Wasteminster.
Everything forward and trust in the Lord! If only snails could be relied upon to leverage an increased scope for battlefield lethality we’d be winning for sure. Just wait until the Landrover replacement is announced, the target date for that to be completed will be way after most of us are pushing up the daisies.
What again capability gapped for an extended time……… Poland has them (and way more than we have) so perhaps we could ask to borrow a few of their vast Helo fleet to help out the poor Brits. Truly embarrassing. And would be better passed over to the ACC for they will primarily be supporting troops on the ground……
2031?? What a farce the MOD is. Wake me up when it happens…..
£1B for 23 in this day and age is a pretty good deal considering others have paid far more per helicopter than us. The time scales are far from ideal but one could argue that the factory probably needs a rejig and people have to be trained on a new design, as others have mentioned the time between the first and last is pretty good in defence production terms which usually move at glacial pace.
The main concern is why 23? Surely once this batch commences a potential follow up order must be taken otherwise we are back to square one with potential redundancies. I cannot understand why people keep banging on about Blackhawk? We are better off with it!, it’s cheaper!, combat proven. The reality is that jobs need protection over here, we maintain control of the upgrades (immensely cheaper), we decide the weapons package and on paper this is a superior airframe.
Because Blackhawk is in fact combat proven.
The requirement is for a tough airborne builders van, not a top of the range air-conditioned Mercedes mini bus, with all the extras.
Look at Blackhawks combat record in Afghanistan, the small arms damage sustained and it was turned around again again to back into the hornets nest.
The actual operators of said helicopters, have been asking for a Blackhawk procurement since the 1980’s, why do you think that is???
I will guarantee the AW149 wouldn’t survive 5 minutes in the same conditions…
How many Blackhawks can you buy for £1B? Unless we entering the second hand market it’s going to be less than 23 when you factor in any modifications, then you get further locked into the US ecosystem and let’s face reality it’s not there to provide a service for our forces, it solely exists to line private contractors pockets.
Yes the combat record is there, but same can be said for any of our other helicopters.
Mission Availability for Afghan provided by the AAC, FAA and RAF. The top helicopter for availability was the Chinook, followed by the Apache and then the Sea King, next was the Lynx and lastly was the Merlin. The Lynx suffered really badly due to main rotor blade leading edge erosion and FOD damage to the engines. Whilst the Merlin, having supposedly learned from operating in Iraq. Kept the armoured windscreens permanently fitted. But suffered horrendously from small arms damage. As the composite structure needed specialist repairs authorised by the factory, which could take months.
Even the RN’s Sea King HC4’s worked well above expectations there and in the Gulf region, What Percy needs is a 4 tonner in the sky not a load of fancy stuff that when it breaks takes forever to fix. KISS works for kit as well as Ops, its flexible. The UK is ever more a joke these days.
Predictably feeble (yet again) 😞
5 years away.
In-credible…..
Yet Poland is getting theirs now. And this lot will not even be in office when the bill comes in.
It’s very good news that we have finally ordered new helis to fill the gap left by the Pumas retirement. But you wouldn’t think so, going by the chorus of moans and groans from so many here.
Ref the smallish number ordered, there seems to be a popular belief here that money grows on trees. Alas not, the annual helicopter procurement budget is something like £1.1bn a year. But that is equipment AND SUPPORT. About 30% of that, maybe £300m, is available for new helicopters. It means we can afford maybe 7 a year at best. Well, that is the number we are ordering, going by the article.
BUT… we also have to pay for 14 very expensive extended range Chinooks, totalling £1.5bn. That’s 4-5 years of the rotary budget gone. If the plan is to bring these in BEFORE the AW149, it would explain why the latter’s ISD date is 2031
As Magenta explains above, we will want to equip the NMH with current UK systems, which will anyway take some time.
John Clark endlessly goes on about the Black Hawk. It may be structurally robust, but it is also a 40-year-old design, no cheaper than the AW 149, carries fewer troops and would tie us into dependency on US big business, US political leverage and US defence prioritising its own needs above little export customers like the UK. The whole of ENATO is trying to pivot away from over-dependence on the USA MIC and we should too, starting with this buy. The Black Hawk is not in this race, it is old news now.
The reason the order is for 23, other than the fact that there is no more budget for this buy, is that 23 is the number needed to equip 2 squadrons. 6 front-line cabs per squadron, 8 in maintenance or rotation, 3 in the OCU. All standard and logical.
If the AW149 is 80 or 90 per cent as good as a Black Hawk, but does the job, keeps a UK defence manufacturer in business and reduces dependency on the USA, we should be more than happy with our choice.
For those moaning about how long this decision has been hanging around, they need to take that up with May, Truss, Johnson and Sunak: the need to replace the Pumas has been hanging in the wind for about 8 years now, but the money was never provided to.place an order. While it is fashionable to have a daily go at Starmer/Reeves, they actually produced some new defence money, £14 bn so far. So at least we finally get some new helis.
Things could be worse!
Hi Cripes.
There is reason in what you say.
But on the 23, surely that isn’t an optimal number.
Remember, the Puma force was cut to 24 from the mid 30s in the 2000s, and had been 41 before.
The number is due to budget, as you point out, not operational need.
Oh indeed Daniele, 23 is miles fewer than we need. We would need 48 or so just to support 3 Division, and the same again for 1 Division, plus a couple of dozen for the RAF’s utility and CSAR roles, plus 6 to replace the SF Dauphins. As you know well!
My point was simply that, if we can only afford to equip two squadrons, 23 is the mathematically correct number of cabs. (If the MOD was a little less parsimonious, they might at least have ordered 24!).
Gotcha. 👍
WHY THE FUCKING FUCK IS EVERYTHING THE MOD TOUCHING SO SLOW!
It’s not a fucking ship, it’s a helicopter, it’s not that complex and it’s been built before.
Oh dear, where to start with this one?!
I suppose one should explain that manufacturing and flight testing a modern £40m high-tech military rotorcraft is rather more complex and challenging than ordering a takeaway pizza. You don’t unfortunately get instant gratification with the former.
‘…they need to take that up with…Johnson’
This country blew £500bn on a novel common cold coronavirus: 99.95% survival rate for those under 70, ‘covid’ average age of mortality identical to UK life expectancy.
That’s where all the helicopters and Uncle Tom Cobley went, supported by all political parties and most of the population.
Better to blame Chicken Little.
2031 – what a joke! just buy 50 UH-60s off the shelf! Puma2 binned far too early – along with some hugely experienced pilots and MAC. Until then the options for section level tactical manoeuvre are yomp, wheeled/ tracked or Chinook (which are too big for a section).
Mod seems to have this nasty habit of retiring kit years before there’s a replacement
Three main areas of concern:
1. Time line.
2. Only 23, considering, the original plan was up to 44 air frames.
3. And even more of concern and very vague, replacing multiple types…..how many? more then 23? and bearing in mind, all the pumas have already been disposed off, i believe it was 20? Does that mean, only 3 more airframes to go?