The Russian Pacific Fleet will commission a new Kilo class submarine next week.
In a statement to TASS Russian News Agency, Russian state media, on the Russian Ministry of Defence said:
“A ceremony will take place at the Admiralty Shipyard in St. Petersburg on November 25 to accept the first Project 636.3 diesel-electric submarine Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky for service in the Pacific Fleet. The St. Andrew’s flag will be raised on the submarine.”
The submarine has completed both factory and state trials in the Baltic Sea, the Russian Ministry of Defence said. The testing confirmed that the submarine is ready for operational duty.
The submarine is part of the Project 636.3 Improved Kilo II class of submarines. The Black Sea Fleet has already received six submarines of this type. Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky will be the first for the Pacific Fleet, out of an order for six signed several years ago.
The addition of the submarines to the Pacific Fleet will bring the Kalibr cruise missile into the fleet’s inventory, say TASS. TASS also noted that the Russian Navy is presently considering adding another order of Project 636.3 submarines for the Baltic Fleet.
Project 636.3 submarines are 74 metres long and displace over 3,900 tons. They submarines can dive to a maximum depth of 300 meters. They have a range of 7,500 nautical miles. The submarines have a maximum speed of 20 knots and an endurance of 45 days, say the Russian Navy.
I’m assuming the tug is just out of the camera view!
even the tug would need towing it’ll be well obsolete and barely servicable.like the rest of the russian navy.
I now have a mental image of a Russian submarine, towed by a tugboat, which in turn is towed by Russian sailors in row boats!
good one, i’ll try that one myself
It’s a Diesel, if only the Royal Navy could increase our submarine fleet with cheaper Diesels, and a diesel was Britain’s most successful submarine export after all.
I disagree completely re: diesel. Makes no sense to me having submarines that would be so limited in range. With nuclear they can go anywhere, near or far.
My personal opinion is we should order at least an 8th Astute. I’d say 10 total but there is no way MoD will get that kind of cash, not to mention the massive wish list they already have.
Totally agree ?
Make that 3. SSN are the RNs modern day battleships, there should be more of them.
typical disfunction planning and procurement, the navy. THE navyand not the M.O.D OR PARLIAMENT or treasury decided that it would only operate nuclear SSNs the navy should be TOLD , you will operate, what the country says you can have. £1.4 billion for 1 astute is the economy of the madhouse the excellent gotland ssk of the swedish navy cost 100 million. i ‘m not convinced that the argument of must have nuclear boats is valid modern conventional AIP powered bots are quieter and harder to find than a nuclear ssn its the conundrum that the nations forces collectively been… Read more »
It could be that with the latest nuclear technology (salt matrox) that the uk can build these vessels more cheaply in future.
I suspect it can and even though these vessels are eye wateringly expensive there is no doubt in my mind that they are needed and critical to the uks defence
and should all be towed to the russian coast and sunk
Yeah there’s some great diesel electric submarines. And if we could get 6 for the price of one then why not, or 100 million each that’s 14! Hell of a bargain. And gets the RN decent numbers again.
at the end of their lives they just get scrapped not laid alongside in devonport or rosyth costing millions per year to maintain,an taking up needed space and moorings
its already reported that astute is,too slow,leaking, prematurely rusting, too slow to build,jinxed lump of junk.
we had them, retired them and now they rot in rosyth and plymouth. my son was on torbay when it was retired, the consensus of all on board from the skipper down was that it was good for at least 5 more years. the swiftsure class saw use in the libya conflict despite just having just had millions spent on them so that they could become tomahawk capable. the u.s gets far longer service from their ships than we do.
Probably because order a decent number of ships and subs so they can rotate them properly, reducing wear and tear on each hull, whereas we buy a handful, less than we really need, then work them to the bone to get 6 ships to do the job of 9 or even 12!
but not at 1.5 billion each
this short video on how diesel submarines can now stay submerged for up to three weeks is an eye opener
sorry i lost the link
maybe astute isn’t so good after allhttps://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astute-submarine-slow-leaky-rusty
SSN’s and SSK’s are different tools for different jobs. An 8th Astute would have been nice. Submarines can achieve 3 for 1 availability, but better 4 for 1 (note our trouble with Vanguard). Now Dreadnought is in build we don’t have the capacity for an 8th Astute. What is more likely to happen is we lose Astute as she is ‘different’ to the rest of the class. I think at the moment the only standing task is the Indian Ocean (if somebody could confirm that please). CASD is left to do as was designed hide for its defence. But a… Read more »
Is the actual problem with recruiting crew though, or is it reduced availability so peoplec applying are almost on a waiting list? I remember reading a few years back that it was taking some people almost 2 years from application to starting training, for some roles in the RN and RAF. With regards to Submarines, arent we still in the process of building the final 3 out of 7 Astutes? If they are being build alongside Dreadnought then surely an 8th could be built – were the funds to magically appear. Or if not, could the Trafalgars be retained in… Read more »
Some answers Steve R “Is the actual problem with recruiting crew though, or is it reduced availability so people applying are almost on a waiting list? I remember reading a few years back that it was taking some people almost 2 years from application to starting training, for some roles in the RN and RAF.” The issue isn’t recruitment (albeit it is increasingly difficult to persuade young people used to living in a digital world to enter the Submarine Service), the issue it retention. This is an issue that affects all three services but put simply whilst the recruitment taps… Read more »
So when you say Astute production is winding down does that mean we won’t even get the full 7 subs?
The current order is still 7 Astutes yes,as the final 3 progress through Manufacture then that leaves a capacity gap behind them.On another point HMS Astute is obviously the lead Boat /Guinea Pig of the class so there may be a few differences.The final 3 were to be built to an ‘improved’ specification but this was bought forward to Boat 4 (HMS Audacious) but problems have been encountered and her entry into service has been seriously delayed.
All ships in a class differ one from another sometimes in a slight way, sometimes in major ways. But Astute is ‘different’ enough for me to wonder whether she will be retained. Astute was launched in 2007, entered service in 2010, but began building in 2001. Agincourt will commission in 2024-ish by which time Astute will be middle aged.
eventually we’ll get 5 type 31’s and 8 type 26, but it won’t bridge the lack of assets required for the R.N to fulfil its needs.
not sure about the manpower shortages at the mo. the recent series on duncans deployment, made the point that there were not enough bunks, because there were too many people on board.
the chinese have just unveiled their’new submarine factory’its huge an can support the building of 4 vessels at the same time!
modern diesels haves crews of under 60 that could come from a single intake.
Judging by the amount of pictures on Twitter of subs coming and going crew and sub availability doesn’t seem to be an issue? Maybe someone else can give a more informed opinion?
As for diesel subs it seems a no brainer to have a fleet of say 4-5 purely for patrol around the UK guarding faslane and the North sea, easing pressure on the SSN and surface fleet.
the pre planning of drafting of new entry trainees before training completion should be better managed. perhaps drafting entire classes to the same ship/boat at the same time might well be of benefit with easier projected crewing issues to be addressed at an early stage
Exactly even for the Mediterranean and base in Gibraltar ok maybe not but thy are a different tool than Astutes and would give the RN much needed options in that area. Far cheaper is just a huge bonus.
the gibraltar squadron should get a 6-8 squadron of well drilled 20mm cannon mounted archers, then the poor old sabre can retire. i was on sabre in 1975, off ulster and she was pretty tired even then.
That makes more sense shorter range boats and ships for coastal and North Sea duties. Free up some of more expensive assets for fleet duties.
worth consideration, the french scorpene, which appears to be the nature of modern diesel production successes has a massive crew of 28, you could do that from a single class intake at h.m.s raleigh
Hi Steve
Please excuse my ignorance of submarine matters but how is Astute different from her sister boats ?
Yes I was wondering that. As for diesels probably more urgent requirements but certainly true that they would seem far more logical for an island nation like us in terms of protecting our coast line than a sprawling one like Russia especially in Terms of its Pacific fleet where it would have a long range attack role ideally from their perspective one might have thought. Maybe Japanese waters is seen as a potential target area.
Re “for an island nation like us in terms of protecting our coastline”
In addition to adding shore-based anti-ship batteries. The inclusion of these would take the pressure off our surface ships and make the country as a whole safer I would have thought?
The Saab RBS15 Gungnir springs to mind!
Or just make sure all our vessels have an anti ship missile fit. Norwegian anti ship missile or LRASM, either or. These should be fitted to all type 45s as a canister fit, already ordered for type 31s I hope and be fitted into the strike length mk41 vl cells of the type 26.
Also return an anti ship missile fit to the RAF, we haven’t had that since sea eagle retired early and without replacement. Yet again Norwegian anti ship missile would fit the bill nicely
Type 45’s as well, It’s not that expensive!
“The cost of these vertical launchers is rumoured to be in the region of $500,000 each so equipping the entire fleet could possibly be done for around $50 million.”
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/08/type-45-destroyer-time-fit-strike-launchers/
I’d say go for the Norwegian NSM, increase the number of ship kits from 5 to 10, or at least 8. Integrate them with both F35 and Typhoon, plus P8 Poseidon. That way we can kill ships from underwater (Astute), from our surface ships and also from the air, either carrier launched via F35 or protecting our home waters via Typhoon or Poseidon.
Then, when Perseus comes I’d say transfer the NSM to Type 31s.
we’ll need to park a t45 in london, one in pompey harbour and maybe the forth estuary, and hope the f 35’s and typhoons of the R.A.F will be enough to keep the’bad guys’ at bay
main issue with conventional boats is, speed, range= more refuelling and storing needs to be provided for. other than that the capability of a diesel boat have shown them to be on a par with their nuclear counterparts
far increased activity by russian submarines around our coast would suggest the need for more hunter killers of our own to be needed.
And more than 9 poisedon maritime patrol planes
maybe go for an oberon batch 2 and have 27 of them like we did with the original boat.
i think astute is overrated,overpriced too slow to build, too expensive,unproven one astute or another t45? its surface escorts the R.N is most short of if the nation would seriously consider refitting say, half a dozen of the retired boats for conversion to diesel electric. we might have the major boost the submarine service wants/needs. especially as they’re ALREADY BUILT.
BAE media hype believed by the m.o.d from just reading a brochure
expensive gadgets
so for all this overhyped unproven gush about astutes, they are overpriced, unproven.the u.k buys whatever appears in the latest brochures astute is not the sacred cow it’s made out to be, its more like the elephant in the room, 2 more type 45’s or 1 astute, i’d go for the t45 anytime
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astute-submarine-slow-leaky-rusty
cheaper, better options out there, i’d look at the transfer of the soon to retire collins class diesel boats from australia, maybe give them one of the last trafalgars and a few quid for them. maybe even our old upholders back from canada. especially as all these boats ARE ALREADY BUILT!
Collins class are knackered. Had very tough service lives, although well painted, also not going to be available until Australias new barracuda clas subs start entering service in late 2020s. So some years away currently.
Well maintained not painted. Sorry autocorrection did not spot. Why cant we have an edit function on this website?
I would really struggle to paint that many for my toy army…if they made them smaller, then the cost would go down and the 1:72 would fit better in my shed.
Ok but diesel electrics aren’t that bad, I would love a large fleet of nuclear but with the cost it’s not going to happen where as we could double our hunter killer submarine numbers for 1 billion or less depending on sub. Am I the only guy that likes diesel electric submarine.
£1.5 billion for one astute? no wonder we’ve got no ships, its the economics of a madhouse. the astute is touted as the be all and end all in the ssn niche with nothing but the brochures claims to back the words up all that money for ONE and taking years to build utter nonsense
Simply untrue: Both diesel & nuclear subs are limited by the amount of food they can carry, so nuclear subs aren’t unlimited, plus are a nighmare to decomission & make safe, & if sunk in action will seriously pollute & damage the enviroment for hundreds of years. Deisel subs are the more economical choice & would allow more units to be deployed than the few Astutes we have.
Agreed, along with 3 more type 45s and lets reintroduce press gangs to crew them.?
no, the diesel classes of today are outdoing many ssn performances£1.5 billion for an unproven astute? stupid economics of the asylum
utterly disagree, 1.9 billion for 1 vessel when the navy is short in every other area is the economy of the madhouse. there isn’t a need to spend even more on a too overpriced, too slow to build ‘jinxed model of warship. the ones in service are rusting seriously early, the circuitry is described as a fire risk.and we want more? yet again the M.O.D fell for the glossy spin of a BAE CATALOGUE. much of the ships systems are unproven, as is its performance, 2 more astutes? RUBBISH. my son was on torbay when it retired,contractors, dockyard supervisors, the… Read more »
Fair enough about the Astute, but we DO need more subs. I’m actually warming up a lot to the idea of diesel-electric SSKs, since they are so much cheaper. You’re right; we could probably build a class of 6 SSK for the price of a single Astute. We shouldn’t be buying old, second hand, knackered Collins class from Australia though; we should design and build our own, something we could also build for export. Could easily double our sub fleet for relatively small cost, those SSKs could then patrol home waters, as an extra sub escort to our carrier in… Read more »
nohttps://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astute-submarine-slow-leaky-rusty
modern diesels if you care to look at their specs can, stay submerged for up to 12 weeks and can reach speeds of up to 20 knots the gotland class from sweden which ran rings around two u.s battlegroups costs just 100 milion.so even with my limited grasp of mathematics, the u.k could have 14 of these for the cost of one astute the scorpene, gotland, german type 212, the australian collins are top of the class.wiki them and see what they can do it’ll dispel many of the old diesel v conventional arguments
what and throw another billion and a half down the swanny? i’d rather the money was spent on another t45 or 26 economy of the asylum astute/ slow,leaky, rusting alreadyoverhyped, overpriced jinxed lump of junk
the decommissioned trafalgars and maybe the swiftsures may be able to have the ‘glow in the dark’ bits removed an be fitted out and operated as diesel boats 19 boats at rosyth, and devonport being removed from their current locations would certainly go down well in the local communities
No Andy that would be mega costly. We could reactivate a couple of the Trafalgars though in a national emergency. Would be expensive but cheaper and quicker than building new boats, until new boats were built
but as you say this sort of thing need the political will, like india is showing. in building quickly a big impressive fleet expansion programme
The future is not diesel but air independent propulsion with fuel cells probably. I agree though, one way to easily up the RN submarine forces critical mass above the paltry 6 functioning SSNs we currently have would be to purchase some “conventionally powered” SSKs
Or just order an 8th and 9th and 10th astute class as an enlarged batch 2 with more tomahawk cruise missile load out. Our SSN numbers are too low. Although an astute would run rings around one of these improved kilos. There was an episode in the Med in 2017 when Russia had a kilo try to follow astute. Astute had detected the kilo from 35 miles away and had a targeting solution on her for 2 days as they danced around. The kilo only detected the astute from about 3-5 miles away. Summary, if things got hot an astute… Read more »
It would be incredibly difficult to order an 8th, 9th and 10th Astute. The long lead items needed for construction would have to be ordered and in some cases alternatives sought. The PWR2 reactor would probably not be available meaning PWR3 would have to be adapted meaning significant redesign work, this would have serious impact on the Dreadnought program as designers and drafts-man are drawn back to support a further Astute build. As for your story about an Astute and Kilo in the med considering RN and Russian Federation don’t comment about submarine operations or the performance of their boats… Read more »
AIP is used alongside Diesel and has not supplanted it yet, the success of various AIP systems are also rather questionable. Recent improvements in battery technology means a conventional SSK is still a credible solution. The latest Japanese Sōryū-class SSK Ōryū and Tōryū drop the Stirling AIP system in favour of an enlarged battery bank made up of Li-Ion batteries.
the german type 212 is probably the most advanced ssk propulsion system out there today.
Yes and no, the Hydrogen fuel cell technology used by HDW is certainly compelling vs other AIP systems but I feel it is best suited to confined waters like the Baltic where the patrols are short and you are close to base where the hydrogen can be topped off.
For a SSK that wants to do long range patrols I think you are probably better served with big fuel tanks for the diesels combined with a huge battery bank of li-ion batteries.
Yeah and they would help keep the country safe, only 7 total planned is a joke, we could double that number with diesel electric or what ever new system for the price of 1 Astute.
quadruple not double
not sure about the fuel cells especially as they have a by product, fresh water.
the oberons were a fine deign a newer batch 2 type might be worth a punt
the oberon class was still in use in the falklands
still wearing the BAE blinkers the m.o.d prefers to WASTE MONEY ON an overhyped,overpriced, too slow to build lump of junk, which everyone has been conned into thinking how special it is £1.8 billion for ONE astute, when a scorpene conventional boat cost 280 million euros and needs a huge 28 to crew it. M.O.D? ministry of dimwits more like
How much use is a diesel sub in the pacific ? Its a huge ocean and my understanding is that submerged diesel boats are still pretty slow, not to mention that it needs to breath air every now and again.
One would assume they would be operating in the Baring Sea rather than gallivanting around the expanse of the Pacific.
every boat in ww2 in the pacific was a diesel
i think more likely in the greenland gap monitoring outcomings of russian military movement along the kola peninsula
Alaska is only a short hop across from eastern Russia.
Brave sailors taking on that role for any sustained period or maybe at all.
Agreed! One thing I don’t think the Russians are short of is brave men. I would fully expect some kind of SOSUS arrangement in the Barents Sea, and likely a hunter-killer or two. Maybe the idea is that the diesel subs are easier to maintain and operate?
If you have the chance, on the subject of submarines, check out the Silent Service, it’s available on iPlayer; really good look at the use of submarines by the US, UK and USSR during the cold war. Very interesting stuff!
Thanks Joe, I will. The intelligence ops of the Silent Service and USN operating in Russia’s backyard interest me greatly.
Ah, then you should enjoy! they had some great interviews with some really senior guys on all sides.
so is the isle of wight from us, but i doubt the russian even know it exists
one area a diesel beats a nuclear sub is, that is has the ability to lie on the ocean floor totally silent and undetectable. the nuclear submarines cannot do this as the have to keep the salt water pumping system around the reactor going, which increases the risk of detection
David – an SSK in the Pacific is very potent,look at the Countries operating them around the Pacific Rim,too many to list here but there aren’t many that don’t use them.
the latest aip designed engines are almost silent, but it’s true that diesels are slower the new air scrubbing equipment has quadrupled the time modern diesels can stay submerged. onyx was very efficient during the falklands war, but, apart from running into a rock, her being a diesel wasn’t an issue
the new aip submarines with air independent propulsion can submerge for weeks and the only by product is drinking water!
the new conventional submarines are faster submerged than on the surface some do 20 knots, which is impressive in itself
Russia’s newest submersible deathtrap…
Not really, the Kilo has a good operational and safety record. The only notable incidents that included fatalities were with INS Sindhurakshak. She suffered a hydrogen explosion in her battery compartment caused by a faulty valve leaking gas. In 2013 the same boat suffered an explosion and fire in her weapons compartment when tied alongside in Mumbai the cause being more than likely poor munitions handling by a tired crew.
OBSOLETE BEFORE IT TOUCHES WATER
My opinion on subs is we have to really wake up to the huge proliferation of decent quality diesel electric subs now operated by many nations including second tier navy’s. 7 Astutes, great they are very good and powerful assets but with only 2-3 deployable at one time, it’s just not enough to defend our shipping lanes or attack others with significant impact. The carrier will require one, CASD requires one, so nothing left for much else. So for me, diesel electric are a no brainier and we should be building a fleet of them. The latest designs seem very… Read more »
I think at the moment the upper reaches of the Indian Ocean are of greater concern to the MoD(N) than the Russians. SSBN may be operated to avoid everybody. But surely it would be nice to know who is paddling out there in the Atlantic? But no the Middle East (and Africa) come first…………..not god.
more than makes sense doesn’t it? crewing issues shouldn’t be an issue for them as generally a crew of under 80 is the norm and could come from the same national intake at training easier and more effective posting from training establishments would go a good way to improving the dispersal of new matelots.
the scorpene conventional submarine needs a whopping crew of 28!! which could come from just one intake in initial training.
we used to have a submarine fleet of our ownfile:///C:/Users/andyr/Col%20-%20KEEP/33%20SUBS%20AT%20DOLPHIN%20PRE%201030.webp
how we know how good astute is? what we do know is that it it overpriced, too slow to build, the ones that are already built are already suffering rust issue and suffering from poor safety concerns around the safety and fire risk.it would appear, that,as usual the M.O.D have been seduced by the BAE brochure
could some of the 19 ex r.N submarines be converted to operate as diesel electric hunter killers? HOPE SO, especially as they’re already built.
No, Andy.
Folks I would not underestimate the Russian Fed Putin has spent vast sums developing new kit to rival the wests and testing its combat capability in Ukraine and Syria , and battle testing commanders and soldiers . I am no expert on subs but agree we should look at a class of diesel electrics new utilising latest battery technology, we have excellent R&D in sub design and could export to allied nation , I don’t think retrofitting the nukes would be successful as they were designed for a specific role .
we, more than many other nations should be able to design, build, and operate our own indigenous diesel boat. cheaper,faster to build, easier to crewsay under 70. THE OBERON CLASS WAS THE LAST MAJOR EXPORT SUCCESS THE NATION EVER HAD THE r.n HAD 23 OF THEM! ONE OF THEM,HMS ONYX, SAW SERVICE IN THE FALKLANDS WAR OF 1982. THE NAVY COULD LOOK AT MAYBE A BATCH 2 VERSION WITH AIP PROPULSION AND TOMAHAWK CAPABILITY. THE SUPERB GOTLAND BOAT OF THE SWEDISH NAVY PIERCED AN ENTIRE AMERICAN CARRIER GROUP AND CARRIED OUT A SIMULATED 4 TORPEDO ATTACK ON THE RONALD REAGAN… Read more »
we’re always banging on about crew shortages, but it it is worth noting that the excellent scorpene conventional submarine has a crew of 28, YES 28
on the subject of diesel boats, it has to be noted that they are far,far faster to produce. the oberon class took 2 years from being laid down to becoming commissioned into the fleet the other benefit is, than when they are retired, they can just be scrapped, no ten years or so rotting alongside somewhere like the nuclear boats have had done to them
https://www.google.com/search?q=oberon+submarines+at+hms+dolphin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7v72L6YXmAhWEYMAKHUHjCGUQ_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=1094&bih=452#imgrc=571jrfT70tOjOM:
WILL WE EVER
EE THE LIKE AGAIN?
In a word, no !
i bet it took less time to build than an astute at 8 years each.!
worrying newshttps://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astute-submarine-slow-leaky-rusty
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/15/hms-astute-submarine-slow-leaky-rustyhttps://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/15/stuffhms-astute-submarine-slow-leaky-rusty worrying
astute has in the portsmouth news been labelled ‘slow rusting leaky and jinxed
we had submarines in 1977 we had 10 oberones and porpoise boats at dolphin on the same day