Only two of the eight vessels in the Irish Naval Service are currently available for offshore patrols, raising concerns about Ireland’s maritime security.
A third ship is on standby. Cathal Berry, an independent TD (MP) and former Irish Army Ranger, was quoted as saying, “there are ‘huge implications’ for Ireland’s security”, and mentioned that the present scenario was “completely abnormal and would not be normal in any other EU country”.
The Defence Forces attribute the lack of available ships to the ongoing loss of experienced personnel and difficulties in recruiting new staff.
According to a news report, Berry opined that the recruitment challenge was primarily about inadequate compensation, saying that sailors and other military personnel have “weak employment rights”. He emphasised that this was not a shortcoming of the Defence Forces themselves but rather an issue that required ministerial intervention.
Berry further highlighted that such limitations could compromise anti-smuggling operations and search and rescue missions, putting maritime defence and security in jeopardy.
The Irish Department of Defence revealed to RTÉ that the Naval Service was “adopting a three ship posture”. A spokesperson clarified, “This strategic decision has been taken in order to streamline operations, bolster existing capabilities, and ensure optimal resource allocation in the Naval Service.”
The spokesperson also touched upon the recruitment challenges, stating that “The challenges around recruitment and retention within the Defence Forces” have a notable impact on “specialist positions, as the current competitive jobs market is proving challenging for all sectors”.
Two ships of the Róisín class have been placed in reserve, and two new inland patrol vessels acquired from the Royal New Zealand Navy are yet to be commissioned.
Ireland yet again relies on the UK for defence, it’s wrong and the nation and people should be ashamed of they way the defence forces are cut to the bone and beyond while the rest of the EU increases spending on defence Ireland cuts…
Thats Nato not EU that has the 2% rule. Ireland isnt a member of nato, they officially are nuetral, since 1922
I never said they were, what I did say was the Ireland relies on its old enemy the UK for defence, Ireland can’t defend it’s own borders or coastline and just relies on the UK to assist with things like the Russian subs in Irish waters that Ireland had to use fishing boats to block access until the UK patrol craft came over. The trouble is the UK has to keep Ireland safe as it is too dangerous for us to allow Russian forces that close to our coastline.
Im not speaking for them, but their neutrality has worked for them through WW2 and the cold war
Irish waters are the 12nm limit , and no theres no Russian subs there, but so what if there was …theres no Irish navy to attack ( thats mostly 1950s thinking with huge numbers of Soviet subs, which dont exist anymore
Ireland and the UK are now the closest of allies and neighbours. And, in the scheme of eyewateringly-expensive UK defence spending and substantial NATO commitments, it’s surely not too much to ask for the Royal Navy to lend a hand until Ireland’s in-house defence situation has been resolved. What are friends for?!
I have never before heard the UK described as Ireland’s old enemy!
Out of all EU countries Ireland spends the lowest % of GDP on it’s military. It’s about 0.25% the EU average (2021) was 1.3% so about a fifth what other countries spend. The UK same period about 2.3%.
Do they pay the UK for their security?
I don’t think they contribute to the RAF for the Quick Response aircraft that protect Irish airspace.
The highest is Greece , so what does that tell you.
Ireland faces no threat from UK , maybe a bit like Portugal, while Greece faces Turkiye
Geography matters
The one you should be thinking about is Taiwan, much less of its GDP than Singapore, and yet it faces China
I think it tells us that the ROI need to take responsibility for themselves,
The Chinese offshore fishing fleet has in recent years been stripping the South Atlantic.
What will Dublin do to defend Irish resources from China? They are already unable to defend them from EU rivals – following the ROI press.
Well, who’s the mug?
The UK supply’s Ireland with security using our fast intercepter jets because they don’t have any they use our ships because they don’t have a blue water navy. The EU is just a bad because Ireland is the EUs most western border you don’t see France deploying aircraft or ships to protect it. But Ireland and the EU are the first to slag the UK off.
True
What is the connection to blue water? Is Ireland claiming global power projection now?
Eu western border with… Canada or US?
A blue water navy has the ability and ships capable of finding submarines something the Irish navy can’t do so we end up patrolling around Ireland because they don’t have the capability and the EU countries won’t take up the role protecting the western border from Russian or any other countries navy. I know we benefit from patrolling it but technically its not our responsibility.
In fairness, Ireland doesn’t need a full fledged Blue Water Navy, a high Tier Green Water Navy would be fine.
Only 3 countries in the world have a blue water navy.
Where is everybody… down at the pub!?
Wish I was 🍺 🤗
Unfortunately no wants to join the Defence forces as its members are Horrifically underpaid and suffer poor working conditions some of its members had to take government subsidies benefits to maintain a living. Apathy has set in for Anyone aware of the problem or anyone has left or thinking of leaving Denfence forces as Politicians here have repeatedly said they would do something about it but have done nothing and are disinterested in resolving it and instead trying to buy votes.
Only 2 oh dear, that is very bad, in a wartime situation, Ireland is virtually defenceless
What do you mean virtually?
The only thing ultimately protecting Ireland is their relationship with the US. If Russia decided to attack ROI would the UK want to get into a shooting match to protect a non-NATO member that invests practically zero in their own security and denies other European treasuries of much needed corporate tax revenue? I don’t think so.
Ireland is not an ally of the US and there is no defense relationship. You totally overestimate the Irish influence in the US if you think Americans will die to defend Ireland. The St Patrick’s Day festivities have more to do with an excuse to get drunk than they do with Ireland. There are more German and Mexican Americans than there are Irish Americans. And, the Irish American population is concentrated in the Northeast in states of diminishing influence. The future of America is in the South and Southwest where there is virtually no Irish American presence.
UK media coverage tends to concentrate on the Northeast corridor and California, ignores the vast rest of America and overemphasizes the influence of Irish Americans.
The US issued a demarche against the UK for basically nothing. The US president is an Irish American. Ireland knows the US will come to its aid in the unlikely event Athan anyone was to attack it. The UK would basically be unable to ignore it too although I’m sure the Irish would find something to blame the UK for even as they turned up to help.
The reports of the demise of Irish North America has been greatly exaggerated.
I mean, Russia cannot attack Ucraine, why on earth should it attack Ireland? It is still part of Western democracies, it would be helped and much more than Ukraine. Agree though on corporate tax revenue
Yes we would, because the alternative would be to end up with a landmass to our west that was effectively under Russian control.
As we have a land border and share air and sea security concerns with them I can’t see a situation where the UK would not support Ireland.
Could the UK purchase some of the vessels the Irish are not using. They will have low mileage and their larger offshore patrol ships could be made into useful corvette sized ships optimised for surface strike and protection of UK critical infrastructure. Such a purchase would free up the larger frigates and destroyers for NATO duties, Falklands guard duties, middle east and far east deployments.
They would be a useful way to put much needed mass back onto RN hull numbers.
Not really. The Roisin class OPV, while impressive and smart looking isn’t built to exacting MILSPEC standards. They don’t have the same level of watertight integrity, bulkheads, firefighting systems, armour protection etc. Adding missile systems etc without extensive engineering carried out would make them death traps to their crew and the required alterations would be horrendously expensive for little gain. They have no aviation facilities or sonar, they are literally patrol vessels for checking fisheries and drug interdiction. They can never be considered warships.
Wasn’t thinking about the Rossin class. Everyone who has any knowledge about naval matters would agree with your comments. I was thinking of the Samuel Beckett class. 2000+tons built by Appledore shipyard.
They are the vessels I’d be keen for the RN to get it’s hands on.
As far as I know, the Samuel Beckett class are also built to the same commercial standards as the rest of the fleet and the same issues arise. The RN has bitter experience of what happens when a ‘commercial standard ‘ warship (T21) enters a war zone, even HMS Ocean proved difficult to maintain with her commercial build standards. They’d be better off spending the money on adding more T31 hulls.
Should have had Swan Hunter build Ocean like a proper warship than the cut down cost from VSEL.
HMS Ocean was not built by VSEL. She was built by Kvaerner Govan. Fitted out by VSEL Barrow.
T21 was never built to commercial standards. It had cracking issues in the hull from partly the structural aluminium superstructure and steel hull. There were other cracking issues with T42 . Even the early USN Arleigh Burkes have had cracking issues, but not much mentioned, and repaired of course
Type 21 was a proper Warship – try telling the Crews who served on them in the Falklands War that they were not.They performed well in ASW and NGS, operating in an environment that they were not designed for.
My point was that taking on a relatively small OPV , that wasn’t initially constructed to military standards, adding in missile launchers and extra armaments that it wasn’t designed for and sending it into harms way may not be the best use of finances or of crew safety. I wasn’t diminishing the bravery or sacrifice of the T21 crews in the South Atlantic in 1982. .
It was designed from scratch exactly for the armament it had.
I have to say your claims are utterly without foundation.
Its simply impossible to build a RN combat ship to commercial standards- the idea is even wrong as there are no commercial standards for warships …anywhere
You’re completely missing my original point. Leaving aside the semantics about what constitutes commercial design/commercial build ( and the Irish naval fleet is built to commercial standards only, as was HMS Ocean), the type 21 did have limitations due to the export nature of its design, it was found to be too small for additional weapon and sensor fitting, there were also design weight and stability issues. The cost cutting measure In having an aluminium superstructure proved unsuitable. Again, I’m not criticising the ships or their crews, they performed well in their tasks.
My point above was about taking up a small commercial build OPV, up arming it and expecting it to be a warship.
There was part of the hull of HMS Ocean , the framing was done to commercial standards – Lloyds- but the hull form came from the Invincibles, but that was an exception but I was thinking more the destroyer frigate types
This is from the definitive book on the subject , which the people who designed these ships tell the story- Rebuilding the royal Navy , warship design since 1945,
The type 21 design was a break from the usual in house but it was Vosper Thornycroft , warship designer and builders themselves. Not a commercial yard like you suggest and yes british naval designs have always been sold elsewhere , so nothing unusual
in fact the Iranian light frigate design, Mark V, they had just completed, not an OPV, was to the US naval standards.
The design limitations happens to most designs, the same happened with the Leander mid life refit, only a few could have the latest Sea wolf instead of Sea cat.
Vosper also sold their naval design – not commercial- to Brazil which was bigger again the T21 ( extra meter on beam 20 m on length) , and maybe what the RN should have asked for , but they were penny pinching
No where is there any commercial influence – instead its USN and RN naval design standards
T21 had prelim design for modernisation with sea wolf and better sonar but the freeboard wasnt enough , not an usual situation as that was the same for USN Arleigh Burke Batch III. However as they were to be new builds the hull form could be changed to provide more buoyancy. Older boats more limited in upgrades
The facts run contrary to your claims
I’m not claiming anything of the sort. Simply pointing out the wisdom or otherwise of taking up a design and using it in a role that it wasn’t designed originally for.
Leaving aside sophistry and semantics, the facts support that.
The Type 21 was designed for the Royal Navy as a frigate design and was bigger than the leander it replaced.
There was no ‘commercial’ there at all and being roughly 75% bigger than the Mark V built for Iran , T21 wasnt an upsize either . The Brazilians probably got an upsize on T21 as the beam is similar and the length is a simpler design change – the RN has done that itself
Whatever. I’ll leave you to that particular rabbit hole you’re in. It’s nothing to do with my original point.
This was your original baseless claim- often called rabbit holes by some
The RN has bitter experience of what happens when a ‘commercial standard ‘ warship (T21)..
The ferret has bought to the surface , by quoting expert sources, the people who were there when the ships were built
You havent given any backup source to what you said.
I dont care what sort of stuff you believe , its others who might skim through and find uncorrected information. Thats fixed now
Wow, how incredibly self absorbed you seem. It’s still not my original point. The only thing you’ve brought to me surface is semantics.
HMS Magpie is classed as a warship given it’s HMS designation. But you wouldn’t really send it into a war zone.
The Falklands conflict showed up a number of shortcomings in the T21 (and others I agree), not least its smaller size and ability to absorb battle damage. That’s not to decry their performance. Lessons from that conflict saw later batches of T42, T22 and the new T23 being much larger to allow for future weapons upgrades. The design constraints of T21 didn’t really allow that. Again, not a criticism of the ship or crew. The T45, T26, T31 and even the River OPV are much larger ships to allow for future upgrades and increased levels of secondary firefighting, water tightness, etc. No where did I suggest that T21 was a repurposed fishing trawler or car ferry. I know it was designed as a warship, but its shortcomings as a patrol frigate were exposed during wartime.
They’re the facts.
Umm 2 of them got sunk by air attacks remember
Doing a job in San Carlos Water that a Warship would be expected to do – you put any Warship in the firing line and you risk damage and potential loss.Two Type 42’s were also lost to Air attack so im not sure what point you are making ?.
–
Won’t happen my friend it’s not just about numbers of vessels the RN have a manpower problem .😕
As already discussed, Irish navy’s OPV has little use for RN. On the contrary, NZ has two of their two OPVs in extended readiness because of lack of crew. I think these ships will be “not bad” option for RN to lease/purchase.
The Otago-class OPVs are 85 m long, build to merchant ship standard (as the OPVs of Irish navy), so it is NOT fighty. But, they have a hangar and a flight deck. The flight deck is small, as short as 18m long, but it is enough for Wildcat. Their hanger is 17m long, and can accommodate a Wildcat. They also have a 15t crane and can carry up to three 20ft container.
Thus, the two OPVs can be a good asset to be used in Caribbean ocean, and possibly another one for Gibrartar guard ship.
This will free-up two River B2s, which are built to “a bit more military” standard (I understand, to the military OPV standard). I can think of using these River B2’s flight deck as a “large mission deck with a 15t crane”, and handles many CUBE systems, or carry 11m-class MHC-USVs. Even we may try the SEASENSE, ASW-kit to be added to the existing 6 RN ARCIMS USV MHC fleet.
Crew? RN lost HMS Westminster. As she was to be in long maintenance, there is not surplus crew now. But, Westminster were supposed to be back in fleet on late 2024 to early 2025. So, by then, there must be about 180 crew looking for a ship.
They don’t hate the UK , they just never wanted to be ruled by them
Even New Zealand has 2 GP frigates, as well as a couple of OPV’s, a sealift ship & a new AOR. Similar population size, but Ireland has a larger GDP.
The New Zealand Navy has its own crewing issues and for very similar reasons to Ireland. I read that three ships were taken out of the fleet indefinitely last year because of chronic personnel shortages. It’s replacing and refurbishing the fleet, but right now it can’t crew what it has.
It’s certainly all rather concerning, surely the Irish mod have some responsibilities for counter smuggling, fisheries and maritime infrastructure protection etc??
Just not good enough.
As for this so called anti British resentment, I’ve only ever experienced it in the provinces and then only by typical knuckle dragging fu#kwit idiots trying to cause a fight, never in the Republic.
I’ve got friends who are in Ireland every month on business, they never experience anything but genuine warmth and hospitality.
However, they did leave the lights on, so there’s always that…
The difference is NZ plans to almost double defence spending from 1% to 1.7% of GDP.
The NZ navy has already put out a RFI for 6 surface combatants (3 frigates and 3 OPV ) built to the same modular standards.
The airforce has just taken delivery of 4 P8 anti submarine patrol aircraft.
So even NZ is up arming. There’s even talk of reinstating the combat wing of the airforce, although I doubt that’ll happen
Irelands ‘Larger GDP’ is an illusion
They are a tax dodge country so multinationals , especially from US are ‘based’ there. In reality its small treasury/ accounting staff who just move money around from other countries.
It doesnt benefit Ireland the same as actual full business does . Even the money traders in London have their back office in Dublin, so the tax paid is less on profits. But just computer servers and accounts people
Luxembourg is the same , its GDP per head is so much higher even than Netherlands and Germany next door for the same reasons. Whole office buildings with front companies registered there
The Irish are not the only western country with this problem although it has hit them faster and has become more obvious and serious now.
Cautionary tale for other nations who have not funded their staff sufficiently
The Irish people are great all this hate crap is long gone in a past era so bury all this hate shit and let’s all help each other and fuck all the hate crap
I agree although I think you should be commenting on other people on this topic.
I just stated a fact that manpower problems are an issue in Ireland and in other western states militarily.
Part issue is pay and conditions of course but more so the youth of today just do not want to serve and do some hardship from time to time. They are soft and enjoy the quality of life we the older generation have given them, so fault in part is our’s for the shortage of numbers. When I joined up the RN was 80K + and some branches you waited up to 3 years to get in and pay and conditions were a lot less than today. They want the sweets not pay for them is the way today.
The military in most countries has not kept up with pay and benefits of the private sector. At a minimum it needs to pay the same for a very hazardous job.
There is so much that needs to be done across all of the armed services.
If issues with accommodation etc get sorted so they stop cropping up in the news, that’ll help recruitment. After all, would you rent a property if you knew before hand that the land lord would take months to fix issues?
It’s also not a surprise when you look at the interesting choices made for recruitment advertisements. The Army went through a pretty diabolical phase where the adverts had little to nothing to do with actual soldiering. The only service which has kept a pretty decent standard of advertising is the Navy.
Also looking at certain things to improve the benefits package. Something like the American GI bill could be something to look at.
Good luck to them if they are relying on the UK for Defence, 2 ships is probably not that much more than we have.
Cover their arses from? Faroe invasion?
Ireland has two naval vessels? 😛
Yep, Slow and Slower. As per the road markings. 😁
‘inadequate compensation’
Yes, but it doesn’t help that joining the Irish armed forces is hardly ever going to be thrilling in any way. Not even good exercises with other countries.
That is a very good point. The chance to go to the Med, or even Norway or somewhere interesting might be good recruitment tool.
Just for the sake of discussion, for what was paid for the 5 River B2’s perhaps we could have had 8 for the same money and used some of them to provide an amount of training berths. See the world and so on. Money spinner, offering training cruises to other nations while on patrol. Learn a bit of basic seamanship, navigation, fending off killer tomatoes and so on? AA
I mean, how does the RN not have a tall ship like Amerigo Vespucci or Gorch Fock?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Amerigo_vespucci_1976_nyc_aufgetakelt.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Gorch_Fock_unter_Segeln_Kieler_Foerde_2006.jpg
Now you are talking! The sea cadets have a tall ship, T S Royalist, perhaps the navy could make more use of it….
AA
The active 2 ships we have are they nuclear powered and are they equipped with nuclear weapons ?
What’s an ‘inland patrol vessel’?
A grey painted pickup truck with a shotgun armed bloke stood up in the back.
Doesn’t seem very naval.
fussy sod, right then, I’ll paint an anchor on the doors and pop an inflatable dinghy in the back….
If you would.
Better than fitted for but not with shotgun I suppose…
🤣🤣😂😂
Hi folks hope all is well.
Yes this does appear to be an issue with ROI. Not long ago we hear of Irish members of the ROI government complaing about UK fighter jets over Irish air space!
How on earth would the Irish authorities: police, army and security cope with major civil unrest in the event of a united Ireland? Whereby the unionists create havoc and troubles unfortunately return.
Ask the UK to go back and assist?
Cheers
George
Hi George,
In the event of a possible future unified ROI, any internal unrest would be an Irish problem, nothing to to do with us.
Its hard to ever see that coming about, I’m actually not 100% sure a majority in the Republic would vote for it, never mind Northern Ireland.
That’s true I suppose John. That’s the point I’m making, the cost of dealing with large civil unrest would cost more than the ROI defence budget I guess.
The veneer of the Irish government is for a united Ireland, the truth is this would be a nightmare in reality!
Cheers
George
It would George, you would have a sizable disenfranchised Unionist population with all the issues that entails.
The current middle ground is probably the best way forward for the foreseeable future, at least all parties ( UK and ROI included) have a vested interest in making it work.
They couldn’t and would not want to. It is the biggest single reason why those countries will never be unified. Ireland just do not want the aggro that would follow. And it would follow without a shadow of a doubt. It would dwarf any positives coming from unification.
Alas, I am sure it would…..
The current deal of being a self determining administration, really is the best of both worlds, well it would be if any of the bloody politicians actually turned up!
Who are the Irish defending themselves against? They have insufficient numbers prepared to serve in the defence forces. I don’t think things are much different in the UK are they?
7,700 in Irish defence forces . Which is roughly equivalent to 103, 000 personnel pro rata the much larger UK population (67 mill)
So your claim of ‘not enough’ prepared to serve isnt true
Who are the Irish defending themselves against? Have you examined the UK naval availability? It’s not much different is it? People in Ireland do not wish to engage in military careers. Is the UK any different with personnel shortages all over. People are people wherever they are. Some need to stop being so unpleasant to those living elsewhere.