A Royal Air Force P-8 Poseidon patrol aircraft has flown from its base at Kinloss Barracks this morning to support Border Force Operations in the English Channel, say the Ministry of Defence.

The Poseidon made its operational debut last week tracking a Russian warship near the UK coast, it is now looking for dinghies.

RAF P-8A Poseidon with Russian vessel Vasily Bykov over the North Sea last week.

The task was previously performed by an A400M Atlas transport aircraft as reported here.

A Shadow R1 surveillance aircraft is also being used, something we also reported on earlier.

The Ministry of Defence said in a statement:

“The Defence Secretary has also authorised the use of the Shadow R1 aircraft. Both the P-8 Poseidon and the Shadow R1 will provide further essential support to the UK Border Force over the coming weeks subject to weather conditions and the Border Force’s requirements. The aircraft will track vessels and pass information to the Border Force who will then take any appropriate further action. This task was initially undertaken on Monday by an Atlas A-400M aircraft, which flew from RAF Brize Norton to provide surveillance over the Channel.”

Group Captain Chris Layden, Station Commander RAF Lossiemouth, said in the above statement:

“The Home Office has requested support and the RAF has responded quickly again with the deployment of a Poseidon MRA1 aircraft, flown by a team of personnel from RAF Lossiemouth. The aircraft has significant range and endurance, as well as the ability to support command and control and search and rescue operations, should the Border Force or UK Coastguard require it.”

According to the statement from the Ministry of Defence, this is part of a package of assistance from the Ministry of Defence to the Home Office “as they tackle small boats crossing in the Channel“.

What is the P-8 Poseidon?

The P-8 Poseidon, developed by Boeing, is designed to conduct anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-surface warfare (ASUW), and shipping interdiction, along with an electronic signals intelligence (ELINT) role. This involves carrying torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and other weapons.

The history of the aircraft dates back to June 2004, when the US Navy announced the selection of the Boeing multimission maritime aircraft, 737 MMA, and awarded a contract to Boeing for the system development and demonstration phase of the programme for the US Navy’s next-generation maritime surveillance aircraft. The aircraft was given the designation P-8A in March 2005.

The first British P-8.

Poseidon contains up to 7 crew computer consoles in its cabin, has an electro-optical and infrared sensor turret, a maritime surveillance radar and signal intelligence system. Its radar is capable of detection, classification and identification of ships, small vessels and surfaced submarines.

It also has coastal surveillance capability meaning that the Poseidon can be used for search and rescue operations.

The UK has ordered nine of the aircraft at a cost of £2.5 billion pounds and has recieved two of them so far.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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133 COMMENTS

  2. Good “training” for the crew. Sad situation for the people trying to make the crossing. Coast guard should buy more s100 achieves copters for this kind of operation as they have in wales for SAR. We also need to have s100’s on all the river class that will perform fishieries protection and also Duties such as this.

      • The RAF doesn’t currently have any drones that can legally fly in UK (or European IIRC) airspace. This will change when Protector shows up though.

  4. This should be interesting!

    “Downing Street has promised its “integrated review” of foreign, defence, security and international development policy – the first for five years – will be the most far-reaching since the Cold War.

    But the cross-party committee, headed by Conservative ex-minister Tobias Ellwood, said it was “concerned that the gap between this expectation and reality is widening”.

    Its report urged the government to welcome “challenge” from the armed forces, international allies, industry, Parliament and the public.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53752183

    • The UK has entered a deeper recession than any other G7 country in the last quarter(*), according to many commentators due in large part to the fact that the UK economy is more reliant on retail and services which were absolutely decimated by the lockdown. Just maybe this wretched Covid-19 will spur the Government in power to finally look seriously at ways to boost manufacturing to better balance the economy and to come up with a very aggressive stimulus package to help that happen, and then just maybe defence could get a share of that stimulus. I’m not holding my breath but it would make sense both from a defence point of view and from a wider economic point of view.

      If we take this opportunity for regeneration and change we can not only get out of this hole but potentially come out of it stronger. Sunak came out with a furlough package that surprised many people with it’s size and scope. We need similar or even greater ambition regarding the size and scope of any upcoming stimulus package.

      (*) Some G7 countries are yet to report their last quarter data but stuff I have read indicates that most commentators are pretty certain that countries yet to report will not be reporting as steep a decline as the UK just did.

      • It’s still very early day’s. And until the full impact can be assessed, then we should see more action,. I’m not sure if they still do the autumn statement, but I imagine the chancellor will be on the telly in the not to distant future.

          • Unless there is a sudden political epiphany for the need to invest considerably in the defence sector I don’t see it happening, sadly.

          • No, its fact unless you know more than Capt. Danny Hernandez, public affairs officer for the Navy Acquisition Executive?

            “The necessary modifications to CVN 78 and 79 to fully employ the capabilities of the F-35s and enable them to be more effective will occur prior to the first planned F-35C operations aboard those carriers,” Capt. Danny Hernandez, public affairs officer for the Navy Acquisition Executive, told Warrior in a statement.”

            https://www.foxnews.com/tech/navy-prepares-its-new-ford-class-carriers-for-f-35c-stealth-attack

          • So why is Congress Only procuring 12 F-35C’s this year, and None in 2021?
            The USN obviously does Not like F-35c!

          • Answer,

            “CAPITOL HILL – The Marine Corps is accelerating its F-35C carrier variant Joint Strike Fighter procurement and slowing its F-35B vertical landing variant to support Navy deployment requirements, the Marines’ top aviator told lawmakers today.

            In its Fiscal Year 2020 budget request the Marines asked for 10 fewer F-35Bs; in the budget’s projection for out years, the service dropped its planned F-35B buys by five F-35Bs in 2021 and three in FY 2022. For the F-35C, though, the service increased its request by nine planes in the five-year Future Years Defense Program.”

            https://news.usni.org/2019/04/04/marines-accelerating-f-35c-procurement-support-carrier-deployments-f-35b-buys-slow

          • The United States Navy has different plans to what the USMC plans are. They are more or less independent organizations, and USMC are reliant on the USN for carrier slots. If the USN says it not make all its carriers F-35C ready, so be it, there is nothing the USMC can do.

            As I said the USN has reduced it F-35C procurements lately. It is possible the F-35C project could to be terminated, maybe?

          • “As I said the USN has reduced it F-35C procurements lately. It is possible the F-35C project could to be terminated, maybe?”

            Quite possible.

            “WASHINGTON — An issue that risks damage to the F-35’s tail section if the aircraft needs to maintain supersonic speeds is not worth fixing and will instead be addressed by changing the operating parameters, the F-35 Joint Program Office told Defense News in a statement Friday.

            The deficiency, first reported by Defense News in 2019, means that at extremely high altitudes, the U.S. Navy’s and Marine Corps’ versions of the F-35 jet can only fly at supersonic speeds for short bursts of time before there is a risk of structural damage and loss of stealth capability.

            The problem may make it impossible for the Navy’s F-35C to conduct supersonic intercepts.

            “This issue was closed on December 17, 2019 with no further actions and concurrence from the U.S. services,” the F-35 JPO statement read. “The [deficiency report] was closed under the category of ‘no plan to correct,’ which is used by the F-35 team when the operator value provided by a complete fix does not justify the estimated cost of that fix.”

            https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/04/24/the-pentagon-will-have-to-live-with-limits-on-f-35s-supersonic-flights/

          • What’s the alternative, though? Tempest purely for the RAF and a US or European aircraft for the FAA?
            It would be madness to finally regain a decent fixed wing carrier capability only to then not get a replacement aircraft. I’m not against shopping abroad, but it’d be nice to go domestic if we can.
            Personally, I’d agree with Nigel that we go EMALS because it gives us the best breadth of operability. Aside from an increased airframe toughness and beefier landing gear, there aren’t a lot of changes either. My understanding is that the problems the F35C has had were because of weight shaving and other stuff to better serve the F-35B; if it had been left as originally designed then it would have been fine.
            But STOBAR would be OK too, and probably a lot easier to implement on our existing carriers. Rafale and a number of other aircraft have a good enough power to weight ratio to get off a ski jump with a reasonable loadout apparently- the next generation of aircraft and engines should be even more capable.
            I would personally let STOVL lie after F-35B, unless we were to procure smaller LPH or other amphibious ships; We’re operating carriers big enough for CATOBAR or STOBAR ops now, so vertical takeoff loses a lot of its attractiveness.

          • India is having a lot of probs with it’s STOBAR carriers, aircraft launched with little of a meaningful load. Also high loses!

          • Fair point, my understanding is they’re using Mig29Ks though, right? They’re known to be pretty bad- even the Russians were losing them off their cruiser/carrier/tug-positioned-airfield.
            Their latest competitions are for fighters for both the STOBAR carriers and the future CATOBAR ones, with the F/A18E and Rafale M being the contenders. Details are a bit hazy, but the competition requirements are for the aircraft to be capable of launching from one of the STOBAR carriers with 4 BVR missiles, 2 short range ones, 75% fuel load and 100% gun ammunition. So I assume that the two can achieve that.
            With 6th Gen aircraft presumably having better power to weight ratios, and also likely to launch slick for stealth reasons, I’d imagine that better take-off load could be got.
            The reason I say STOBAR capable is because the QE carriers have a 50-year service life, and I just don’t see a conversion to EMALS CATOBAR happening. I could see a STOBAR conversion though. I don’t want Tempest to be over compromised by the requirements of STOVL in the same way that the A and C models of the F-35 have been…

          • STOBAR will only work properly with vectored thrust jet engines, and that is a very big modification to a CATOBAR aircraft.

          • By “properly”, I assume you mean taking off with a full fuel and munitions load?
            As I said, not all of the details of the Indian bids are available, so I don’t know how the Rafale or Super Hornet are saying they can meet that requirement I previously stated- but I assume it’s pure thrust to weight and you’re right it’s not the full capacity of those aircraft.
            But that’s kind of my argument with Tempest; they may want thrust vectoring anyway, and the newest adaptive engines (can’t remember the proper name) and use of composites means that thrust to weight is only going to get better. Even more so as it’ll probably be slick for stealth with a full load, whereas neither the Rafale nor SH are. What we consider possible/impossible for a 4.5Gen aircraft and for a 6Gen aircraft are going to be quite different.
            F-35B is already capable of launching from a QE carrier with a full weapons and fuel load, as I understand it, and return pretty much the same with a rolling landing. But it is very complex, and sacrifices payload for vertical landing capability. If we made Tempest capable of STOBAR, then we can continue to use the QE carriers all the way out to their retirement date (with minor modification) and beyond onto another platform. We are never going to sell Tempest to France or the US (the current big CATOBAR users, I know India are headed there too), but there are loads of nations operating or developing smaller ski jump carriers. If we can give Tempest the STOL (not vertical) take-off and landing capabilities of the F-35B with the inclusion of a tail hook and some tougher landing gear, then we have an expanding export market of close allies who we’re already doing more and more work with off the back of F-35B. It also fits Sweden’s requirements for road take-off, which is helpful seeing as they’re a project partner.
            If we want to go EMALS CATOBAR on the next class of carrier, all the better for take-off load weight and sortie rate, but it wouldn’t be strictly necessary. Unless I’m missing something, is there something significantly different between a CATOBAR and STOBAR aircraft, aside from how much weight it can launch with? They both need a reinforced superstructure and tougher landing gear, and a hook at the back, but I thought that was it?

      • Hi CR,

        Boris need to do more than fiddle around the edges otherwise he is toast. If he is clever he will stimulate hundreds of new industries. Covid has reset the country’s priorities. Like you I am hopeful Boris will turn out to be the leader he thinks he is.

    • “Are the immigrants using submarines”.
      Excellent!

      So the *economic migrants are coming across on dinghies and we just escort them in ….

      It’s not beyond the wit of man to realise that this will bring in huge numbers, as we (Britain and France) are effectively encouraging them to do it…..

      They should be turned around before they leave French territorial waters.

      *They aren’t asylum seekers as they are already in a safe country, France!

      If they come here claiming asylum from France ( the only possible way they can) then I suggest we get the UN to look at the outrageous infringement of human rights the French must be involved in, as people seem to be fleeing an oppressive regime!

      Or is it just that that the UK is well known as a soft touch … Hmmm, tough one that…..

      • IMO the reaction to this migration is borderline paranoid. There have been about 4000 Channel dinghy migrants this year. Every year in the UK about 600,000 people die, 200,000 babies are aborted and Covid deaths are running at 40,000. We need a sense of perspective. We take far fewer migrants than France or Germany. One man’s easy touch is another’s safe haven and chance of a life without violence or religious persecution. We ought to feel proud that desperate people risk everything and put their trust and hope in the UK. Its a great complement to this country. These immigrants have courage and faith. We will benefit from their coming.
        Thought for the day….You don’t strengthen your own culture and sense of identity by trashing others. It works the other way. Dig deep to find gratitude and generosity within yourself then pass it on.
        Have a great day 🙂

        • well, I don’t agree. They are mostly young men who should be back in their countries of origin, helping to sort out the many problems that have been concerning them.

        • No, that’s just a warped lefty fantasy, Paul. Instead, they’re illegal economic immigrants who are coming to the UK after paying thousands to people smugglers.

          By all means allow asylum for genuine applicants. But do not allow this chaotic economic migration; it’s a free for all suits only the needs of the people smugglers. High time we brought this criminal racket – and the sinister socialist desires of the hard left – to an abrupt end.

          • In truth I son’t mind the RAF trying out their new toys except that it reinforces that sense of panic and bunker mentality we need to lose.
            Criminals thrive where there are vulnerable people. We need to protect the vulnerable as the highest priority.
            I have no time for Ms Patel whose family has done done very well for themselves out of the UK but who is now pulling up the drawbridge and closing the gates to refugees from starving ( sorry economic migrant) and war torn countries. Disgusting protectionism.
            I can understand that some refugees end up claiming benefits for ever. That’s because until they are granted refugees status the government does not allow them to get a job! The Home Office has a twisted morality.
            Have a nice day in a country where everyone is equal under the law since Richard III….England was way ahead of the United Nations declaration of Human Rights.

          • I have no time for Ms Patel whose family has done done very well for themselves out of the UK but who is now pulling up the drawbridge and closing the gates to refugees from starving ( sorry economic migrant) and war torn countries. Disgusting protectionism.

            I’m glad that Priti Patel clearly has the balls to do whats needed Paul, good on her!

            As for calling France a “Starving war torn country”, that’s simply outrageous language from a Brmoaner!

            You will get drummed out of the league of liberals softies using language like that!

            Starving …. have you seen the average butchers in Normandy, wonderful selection of just about everything, a speciality cheese course between your mains, absolutely too die for …. Starving indeed!

            In fact this is making me hungry, anyone fancy heading to France as a refugee, I know were there’s a good few unused rubber dinghies!

          • Well John, I did vote to remain but am quite happy to do a ‘reboot’ of the nation. It gives us gives us the opportunity not to reinstall lots of old software, old ways of doing things. Covid overlaid on Brexit is lancing many boils. Immigration attitudes are the pus coming out. We are remembering our identity. England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland.
            Boris’ Brexit deal has cut the NI Unionists off at the knees. They have been blackmailing GB for a hundred years with threats of anarchic violence. The reunification of Ireland, probably as some kind of federal island, is moving forwards.
            Similarly I see the Scots voting to leave the Union and it being replaced by a federal UK. They may well join the EU and we could see token custom checks at Gretna Green as we will have at the port of Belfast.
            What we are seeing is the death of the UK and the rebirth of England, the first country to be extinguished by the British Empire and the last to resurface, with its own Parliament. Richard III really did move in his grave ?

          • Hi Paul,

            I cant argue with your logic to be honest.

            Northern Ireland does seem to be progressively moving towards some form of independent/federal alliance with the Republic, perhaps some sort of co owned federal alliance with the UK??

            Providing its done with the full democratic consent of the clear majority in Northern Ireland, its entirely their business and destiny to decide.

            I think we have already seen the peak of Scottish Independence movement though, its already starting to falter, as the Scottish people push past “Scotland the Brave” and look at Independence in the cold light of day.

            An economically small country effectively cutting itself off from its largest Market, the UK.

            Very high taxes and much lower spending would be needed to make ends meet (this fact simply cant be avoided) and a potentially lengthy delay to joining the EU…

            I would go as far as to say the EU will absolutely throw Scotland under the bus, to ensue good relations with the UK moving forward, we are a far more economically important and its always ‘all about money’ in the end as we all know!

            That’s not a slight on Scotland, just cold economic fact…

            Yep, the wheels are coming off the cart there…..

            Certainly change is a foot…..

          • In the event of an independent Scotland, it would go through the Process like any other nation, most likely quicker due to being mostly aligned with the EU right now. Both Spain and the Commission recently reiterated that there wouldn’t be any blocking of their application.

            Don’t know why you think the EU would refuse them just because the rUK might be unhappy, the feelings of rUK aren’t our concern anymore, as long as an independence is done legally they will be eligible.

            As to NI, ask again in a decade or so to see how things are.

          • I didn’t mean to open the Scottish question again …

            An independent Scotland would indeed have to go through the hoops to join the EU, slight sticking point is support for Independence is already slipping…

            If you wish to live in a low public spending, very high taxed country you go for it Mark, enjoy.

            Thanks to the SNP making all our ears bleed with their constant and endless winging about how hard done by Scotland is (even through you get more spent on you per head in Scotland than the rest of us), as they drive in the wedge in ever deeper, I really am past bloody caring unfortunately…..

            My Grandmother was a McDonald (don’t mention the Campbells), so I will get a ‘tartan passport’ and continue to enjoy the fabulous countryside and hospitality, whatever you guys decide to do!

          • Well John, It’s a fascinating time. There are still of course recidivist Irish Nationalist enclaves which will always vote Sinn Fein. The same can be said of the Unionists. But if a referendum was held today the catholics I know in NI would vote no to unification with the South which they regard as a moral and economic basket case. Sinn Fein is only doing so well in the Republic because the alternation stitch up of the Fianna Fail and Fine Gael cliques has screwed things up so badly. There is no way NI catholics would swap the NHS for the expensive private insurance health service in the South. Also the Troubles and success of the Peace Process have strengthened their allegiance to their faith. It has not been undermined by a liberal press as happened in the South.
            I wouldn’t rule out NI choosing to maintain some link to GB. Boris’ Belfast to Stranraer bridge is an expensive gamble to persuade both NI and Scotland to stay in the UK. I guess they could both take the money and run or might we see an historic coming together of the Gaelic people separated for so long by 20 miles of water and John Knox?
            In any event it is clear that the UK-EU Brexit deal is being negotiated between London and Dublin and both Stormont and Brussels are being told how its going to be. My money is on NI being a growth engine next year. In the UK and in the EU. They have it made.

          • Economic Basket case? You do realise how it’s NI that’s the economic basket case compared to the Republic right, and thats even with GB tossing them billions a year to keep the lights on. NI wont be an “growth engine” at any point, their educational sector is not fit for purpose, their economically active population leaving out the public sector is barely 600K with a chunk of that relying on cross border trade.

            NI will remain the stagnant economy it’s become sadly.

          • Don’t shoot the messenger 🙂
            I’m only reporting conversations I have had with sensible NI contacts who of course have from time to time lived and have family in the South.

          • Given how many are happily undercutting Irish businesses by not meeting the national standards I’m a bit surprised that they still think they are ahead economically tbh. A good chunk of NI construction lives or dies on whether they can work in the Republic for example.

          • And GB. Ryan Air were happily flying socially industanced flights from Belfast to London during the lockdown. ?

          • Those weren’t basic workers though, it’s much cheaper/easier to have a subbie drive down a van load of lads to Dublin than fly to London. Besides, it’s easier to work in the Republic an claim the dole in NI as many do, and as I said in Construction for example, they get to undercut the Irish firms as they don’t pay the national rates.

          • I think we will find wales clinging on to England for dear life….maybe with Cornwall developing some form fifth column freedom pasty movement. I’m giving it less that a generation before the republic try and give the 6 counties back ( many forget, but Collins really made a wise move, as I’m not sure the republic would have ever come out of its civil war with the 6 counties involved).

          • I’m not accepting any bets on that. My NI info is that the civil war hasn’t ended yet. ? They give the coalition a few months…tlll the Brexit deal is done.
            Wales should be satisfied with Bevan giving us the NHS….the largest Welsh Chapel in the world ?

          • Would have thought NI would be busy with their own fecked up politics. As for the “civil war”, yeah that’s not actually a live issue in Irish politics effectively for a decade at least (if not longer if you go back to the Tallaght Strategy), an for all intents is over, FF and FG have gone into government, never again in an election can they refuse the potential of doing so again. Likely we’ll see an informal arrangement develop.

          • We Can’t accommodate the whole of the Global South! A line needs to drawn somewhere. We will end up with a lot more of the country in covered in concrete!

          • Wouldn’t you pay thousands for a chance of a better life after years of living in fear in some shithole in the middle east, i sure as hell would.

          • I think Robert, it is like running away from
            a problem, and not facing it. The people of the Middle East need to start solving their own problems.

          • That is very true, but as one of the worlds wealthiest nations, we can’t just standby and abandon people.

          • Robert Blay.

            We cannot just keep allowing more in forever. Are we just going to keep letting more in until eventually we are outnumbered in our own country (or even anywhere remotely close to that)?

            We have allowed more than enough immigrants into the U.K. by now, we cannot just keep letting more in forever.

          • Couldn’t agree more Bob . Bottom line these people are breaking the law they are illegal .the clue is in the name ILLEGAL immigrants but of course the leftie luvies adore that kind of thing they don’t care about the rule of law no no sir not at all if they had their way they’d invite everyone in (at everyone else’s expense mind they wouldn’t offer up their own spare bedroom or open their own wallet).

            Of course they (the luvie looney leftists) are hypocrites they lock their doors at night and would phone the po po if anyone walked into their house uninvited but when it comes to the countries borders they believe those sensible rules don’t apply.

            These economic immigrants break the law roll up and despite this the local authorities house them in hotels and give them Free spending money, take them on tours on football stadiums (Anfield) and as a result guess what they text and send selfies to their families and chums back home telling them about all the freebies the U.K. gov hand out (at yours and my expense)so of course more people want to come when they see how amazing it is. Result of which is More unfortunate people exploited by criminal traffickers , more people putting their lives at risk crossing the English Channel but hey ho those luvie Duvie lefties don’t care what’s another few dozen dead immigrants to them?

            The problem is we have weak politicians of all ideological persuasions who are more worried about what the lying spin driven globalist ,fake narrative media have to say than doing what’s right and upholding our laws. For without the law there is only anarchy and chaos.

            France is not a war zone I’m sure the amazing and compassionate EU could house and finance (for free )them all in their fantastical utopia that is the bestest thing since bestest things were invented.

            It would be hilarious were it not so serious even the economic migrants are desperate to get out of the EU this tells you everything you need to know about why we thankfully left ???????????

            The sooner Mrs T defrosts from cryogenic freeze the sooner we can throw these pathetic excuses for politicians out the door and engage this amazing land back into warp speed???? (Sorry Herodotus but Michael Foot just wouldn’t cut it has to be Maggie)??

        • Gratitude and generosity, yes. For how long?

          Have a look at the ONS website. 72.9 million prediction for the UK population by 2041. Up from 66 million now, and 56 million when I was a child in the 80s.

          Please tell me what areas of the green belt are you happy to build on? And the infrastructure increases to accompany?

          All lovely words, but they sound like a politicians, as down the line they are dead and its no longer my problem, Jack. Will you be around in 2041 or 2051 to deal with the consequences?

          A net increase of 300 000 ongoing forever more it seems is unsustainable.

          Naive beyond belief…

          • And before I get the usual veiled insinuations of “racism” from the usual suspects, my own father was an immigrant. And even he thinks it has gone too far.

          • Hi Daniele,

            I don’t subscribe to the view that immigration is the cause of our intractable social and economic problems; congestion, housing, waiting lists, inequality etc. Rather I believe it is a convenient political distraction to maintain the establishment.
            We are not that overcrowded. And we could probably feed ourselves rather than import 70% approx of what we eat if we decided to do so.

            The distribution of land ownership is probably the key driver of social inequality. That and the way the establishment works in such a way as to disenfranchise our own people in favour of dubious foreign purchasers, adding members to its own club. See the link below.

            As management of the Covid-19 epidemic in the UK exemplifies there is a complete disconnect between central and local government and a complete and tragic over reliance on secrecy and centralisation. Very much a disunited kingdom in fact.

            We really need significant change to the Constitution if we want to see an improvement. This is looking increasingly likely.

            https://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry

          • So you think the UK can accommodate all those extra people in Dr Who’s Tardis, instead of a lot more houses?

          • Doubling the population does Not always doublle the GNP of a country! GNP per capita could fall to below Bulgaria’s standard of living.

          • Alternatively, if the UK had a GNP per capita as Singapore, the GNP would be more than Double of what it is now.
            And that is without doubling human waste!

          • Circa 4000 people crossing the channel a year is a net population increase of 0.006%. 2% of the countries surface is currently urbanised. Neither of those figures are scary. This ‘crisis’ serves only the politicians, it’s policy failure to keep up with population growth that they are scapegoating from.

          • I agree with you, its a matter of facts, not racially motivated, if we accept this many people are going to live in the UK, land needs to be given to housing, or ‘blade runner’ style super blocks! Uk space is frighteningly limited.

          • I often think if it was possible to have a sun shade over the Sahara Desert, and return the land to good use and habitual?

        • Hi Paul, everything you read in the Guardian and Independent isn’t fact your know my dear chap.

          In the real world, people in charge have to make tough decisions about upholding the law, your lovely liberal, rainbow tinted way of life is only possible, because our elected officials and their officers make hard grown up decisions on your behalf, so you don’t have too.

          The 200,000 babies aborted is a little strong too!

          You are all for illegal immigrants rights, but not a woman’s right to choose it would seem??

          France and Germany have indeed taken huge numbers of migrants, and that is their concern, we more than pay our part, by paying a ‘huge’ amount of money in foreign aid.

          These people are economic migrants and illegal immigrants, they should be put straight on the Euro star and sent back.

          Allowing them in is simply fuelling serous criminal activity in France and taking even more money off these poor people who already have very little indeed.

          France is a lovely country with a tolerant and liberal democracy, France and the broader EU, have made the conscious strategic decision to allow mass migration, its their call and indeed growing problem, not ours.

          Its the real world my friend…

          You have a great day too…

          • John, please don’t patronise me. I wouldn’t touch the Guardian or Independent with a barge pole. My opinions are my own. And they are Christian not Liberal. There is a difference.

          • Ah, something we agree on Paul, the gutter press!

            It’s somewhat distasteful to me that you hold the rights of economic migrants somewhat higher than a woman’s right to choose, but that’s religion for you….

          • Well, no-one can take away your free will. And ‘religionists’ would not wish too. Coercion is not ‘salvation’. The issue with abortion is that the cultural and economic pressure acts so as to make an abortion the default ‘solution’ to a crisis pregnancy. In any walk of life quick fix decisions taken in haste and in panic are rarely good decisions. Helping a woman with a crisis pregnancy is no exception. It is simply not acceptable that counselling and exploration of support options is monopolised by the abortion providers.

          • I have to agree Paul, my views around caution in abortion don’t come from Faith. But I’ve seen it in the real, it’s not nice and many women suffer for that decision after.

            Conversely You can’t not have abortion as ultimately it’s a woman right to choice and if it’s going to harm a woman’s life so much she must be supported and not having it causes even more suffering.

            But we should make sure every support is give, including Pre Natal adoption pathways and more support in pregnancy and during motherhood.

            Fundamentally Abortion is ending a life, not acknowledging that is harmful to a whole society (a lot of those involved end up with significant guilt, to the extent participation or not is an ethical choice that’s allowed Learner clinicians). Sometime a society deems it appropriate to end lives (or not save them) for moral Or survival reasons ( be it birth control, choice in Dying, war, resource limitations or a criminal Justice system),but it must own that and openly discuss the morality of it….I can’t stand denial, it’s a weakness that destroys a societies moral fabric and bedrocks and will see it fall from within or without (look at the third reich and the Soviet Union).

            The ultimate tragedy is when some has an abortion because it’s the wrong time, does not have good counselling, regrets the loss of their child/suffers mental trauma and then find they cannot have another for whatever reason, people need to consider this ultimate outcome as it does happen. Abortion should never be sold as an easy option…..it’s not.

            If you look at Russia, abortion has become a system of abuse in a society where men dominate and refuse to engage in safe sex yet shame single mothers, abortion is seen almost as a condom replacement forced on women.

            Unfortunately the feminist movement focused a bit to much on parity at work, it should of also have battled for parity of other roles, the movement should have also focused on women’s freedom to choose motherhood and promoted parity of that role over the world of work. I consider my job valuable to society ( as I have saved a few lives in my time or alleviated the suffering of the dying) but motherhood is the single most important function of any individual in society ( it’s literally the future of the species) and as such it should be promoted as the paramount role in society ( far more important that any banker or politician).

          • All good ‘pro-life’ arguments, which I’m sure would be vigorously countered by the ‘pro- choice’ lobby.
            My old boss used to say ‘ you don’t know what you don’t know’ , and my grandmother used to say ‘ advice is only for those who will take it’. Both counsels apply to the woman in a crisis pregnancy situation.
            It seems your opinions on abortion are grounded in experience rather than faith. This lecture has an interesting ‘faith’ perspective. Worth a read.

            https://rabbisacks.org/credo-it-takes-faith-to-have-a-child-faith-in-mankinds-purpose/

            Enjoy your weekend. Tomorrow we celebrate the Feast of the Assumption, Motherhood. And/or VJ Day ?

          • Of course, the left-leaning press are the ones not worth reading. Heaven forbid news / info is consumed across multiple sources and assessed with balance. But I know, we’re all human and our lives are ruled by confirmation bias and emotion instead of rationale. If you can’t get your news in alarmist all caps headlines, it’s not worth consuming.

        • Our country is too densely populated as it is, to take any more.
          Why do the migrates not go to a larger land mess country?

        • I was a bit dismayed at the Sky News reporting yesterday. Female journalist in a boat outside Dover asking occupants if they had come from Calais. Actually they had come from Africa but never mind. Sky had turned it into a circus event. The boat never offered them a line or anything.

        • Paul, while I do agree with your thought process and reasoning, and you cannot fault or blame people attempting to make the best of the life they have, you have to understand that the vast majority of people coming to the UK are in fact economic Imigrants, and have lived/passed through a number of third party countries. Indeed many have lived in these countries for many years.

          I am fortunate to have close interaction with many of these people and unfortunate enough to also have close interaction with the dirt bags who are smuggling them in. Most of these people will want what we all want, a successful and safe life for them and their family. However we need to be practical, reasonable but realistic. Let me assure you that for every one Immigrant that the HO knows about, there are another 2 they dont. The figures for the last 10-15 years are just plucked out of the HOs arse.

          Lets be honest though, every country needs migration, new people, new skills and fresh ideas. Any country without immigration will wither and die, however the trick is to make it a successful and practical policy which encourages the best, the skilled and the reasonable. No Government has yet found that possible to do. And please dont mention the issue of freedom from persecution etc, as their are very very few genuine cases of such, who have not already arrived at another European Country who can provide that safety. Its all about economics, sad but true. Cheers and stay safe.

          • A, all agreed – sound points.
            Your final comment is the one we need to examine. What Covid-19 has done is topple ‘the economy’ off its perch as our unquestioned ‘god’. We have had jolt which has triggered a remembrance that looking after the most vulnerable is in fact a deeper human instinct than material wealth.
            For the avoidance of doubt: what I am saying is that looking after these bedraggled boat people is something we need to do if we are to be at peace with ourselves, our own conscience. Now when a person is at peace with himself he is able to make good decisions in his own and others interest and exercise his natural talents; to work productively and ‘the economy’ thrives. I am saying that a healthy economy is an output ( not an input) of a heathy respect for yourself and others.

          • This country would definitely Not be at
            peace with it’s self if you started to apply disastrous Socialist Land redistribution experiments. We be less likely to feed ourselves!
            This just shows, the Far Left learn nothing!

          • It worked pretty well for France: decapitate the aristocracy, give the land to the peasants, set up the Common Agricultural Policy, run Europe, Eurocopter, Rafale, Airbus, run UK water industry, Independent Nuclear deterrent, well equipped and confident armed forces….am I missing something?

          • Really! It resulted in Napoleon Bonaparte whom sent Europe into chaos and would of invaded Britain if he won some famous battles! And France was defeated again half a century later! Only post WW2 new world order has been a success for France!

          • I think you are missing something, that France’s land redistribution has resulted in lots of small farms making French agriculture one of most inefficient in Europe. In making France the main Beneficiary of the CAP at expense of the rest of EU tax payers including British!
            Good riddance to CAP!

        • Pual.P.

          Should we feel pride in just keep letting more in until we are outnumbered in our own country? Do you think China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Turkey, etc. are doing this?
          Do our underage girl being raped, terror attacks “benefit” us?
          You don’t strengthen your own culture by making your own race outnumbered in your own country. We have allowed more than enough immigrants into the U.K. by now, we can’t keep letting more in forever.

  6. I was quite surprised that A400M was involved as I wasn’t aware that it had any look down over water capabilities. Came across as flag waving. No special knowledge so stand to be corrected.

    The other units now being used are a lot more credible but seem overkill where relatively simple drones could do the job.

    • Can someone reply to this – could we bring this conversation back to Defence and away from politics perhaps. I know that the A400 has been used to cover the SAR role in the Falklands as indeed has the Herc. It can remain on station for a very long time and handles well at very low level – also it can deploy life rafts and survival kits accurately and has practised this role. Question is how good is the radar – it is more than a weather radar and is cited as having navigation and terrain avoidance capability but is it any good at spotting small boats at sea – I have googled and can find nought !

      • The A400M uses a Northrop Grumman AN/APN-241 E radar. It has limited ground mapping capabilities and has scope to be upgraded for maritime use, but as far as I can see that has not happened yet.

        Given the height it was flying at it seems they were using the good old mark one eyeball with a pair of binoculars.

        Sceptical Richard may be able to settle this, he worked on the A400M programme.

        • If you were using the Mk1 eyeball then any cheapo aircraft like a Twin Otter would do the job…..

          Whilst I appreciate the A400M can carry a lot more eyeballs…..

  7. Well,I’ll make a prediction…

    The economic migrants will jump in a leaky boat, push off from the French shore and then dial ‘999’ and wait for the taxi, sorry, the rescue services to pick them up and bring them ashore in the Uk….

    This is going to open the flood gates….

  8. Not going to comment on the migrant situation as that is another issue, but it shows a very sad state to me that the border patrol and coast guard don’t have enough resources, forcing the RAF to intervene.

    As a result of Brexit and no longer having open borders with Europe, we need to properly invest in the border force and coastguard: more boats, a few helicopters etc…

    Massive waste of money using a Poseidon, normally used for hunting submarines, especially when the forces themselves are so stretched.

  9. In Australia we intercept them and then we tell them they just shot them selves in the foot by trying to push in on the line for Refugees and then we deport them to a south Pacific nation that owes us money while they wait for their story to check out . If we dont get any confirmation we dont allow entry .

    • Sounds like a good, effective and in the long term numbers reducing solution to a problem we seem incapable of dealing with. Almost sure it’s the last thing the powers that be will allow to happen then unfortunately. Do we have a free island around the British Isles (no, lets limit it to England to avoid complications) that we could build a holding facility on and keep these people in the luxury they’ve become accustomed to while their almost completely bogus claims can be assessed.

  10. So, I wonder is this expensive and advanced P8 intercepting French border agents radio chatter as it flies back and forth

      • Now Cam, lets not throw the baby out with the bath water, this is a new idea and all ideas should be heard…

        Now Steve, I assume you have a sexy rating system in mind, can I volunteer to hold the clipboard?

        • Hi John,

          Yes of course. Anything less than an 8 is a no.

          We’ll accept 7s if they can bring another friend who is at least a 7.

          • I’ll second that Steve, right, just off to pick up the speedboat, a couple of life jackets and a set of score cards, Ill meet you at Dover!

            Who said pragmatism was dead….

  13. The tabloid fuelled frenzy over illegal immigrants is blown massively out of proportion. It is only a bigger issue now because of favourable conditions in the Channel. Hopefully Border Force will be given their own resources to counter this in future.

    Illegal immigration and those seeking asylum pales into insignificance compared to legal immigration. We have always had the power to limit it but have chosen not to on economic grounds.

    If we are prepared to have higher taxes and have less personal wealth we can limit population growth, but that is politically unattractive so the cycle continues.

    • Higher personal wealth for who? Certainly the wealthy can get cheaper workers with unlimited immigration keeping wages lower, but it kills the social mobility of the British working class.
      I feel immigration will cause more division. Perhaps we should bite the bullet & have a referendum. Unlimited immigration as one option, a limit of no more than a tenth of current immigration (10% of 300,000 = 30,000) as the other option. See who wins. At least it would settle it, instead of it being an ongoing wound.

  14. Should we have some p8s based in southern England? And we should order Atleast 6 more, even government research said we need Atleast 8 more!..

    But will we get a follow on order? Probably not! And knowing how many valuable assets of almost every kind we have already lost and will continue to lose why would we buy the number we actually need.

    It’s embarrassing how much the UK millitary has shrunk! And how we can barely deploy a division of troops never mind a field Army… And the yanks don’t seem to like our cuts either, and neither do the public that actually know about this stuff.

    We should elect MPs partly on their plans for our millitary!. America does great with that, why don’t we ever hear our MPs talk about our millitary? Even in election years it’s hardly ever brought up…. it should be a deal breaker in my opinion.. Given Great Britain’s amazing millitary history I’m surprised more civilians don’t get behind it and fight for a better millitary…

    • Jeremy Hunt tried to make it more of an issue in the leadership contest but it fell flat with their membership. Boris has never said anything that implies we will see an increase in defence spending. He is more concerned with grandstanding and leaves the details to Cummings. What dear Dominic has in mind is anyone’s guess.

      Until something happens to embarrass the UK and its military then I fear the public will pay little attention. The vast majority have no idea and don’t care.

  15. I’m not going to engage in the right or wrong of immigration or boarder security. Im Just going to engage in a wee bit of empathy. What level of desperate does it take to drive a person into a small dingy (especially with his family) and try and cross the sea.

    Actually just take a look at the channel ( or the med) it’s not a wee river or boarder crossing, it’s the deep dark that will drag you and your loved ones under and kill you. It’s almost ended me a couple of times and I knew what I was doing.

    Just go to the ocean, look at its power and really think how desperate would you need to be to head off in a flipping dingy.

    So don’t be twee or unthinking but really consider how we deal with this problem, one day we may be just as desperate.

    It’s not being a being a bleeding heart lefty to think about it and empathise, it’s just actually right and sensible ( I’m no suggesting we house the world, just really think about this using enlightened self interest).

    • Follow the money. Put MI5/6, GCHQ, Scotland Yard, HM Treasury on tracking down those ruthless b*st*rds who make a fortune, by fleecing migrants & putting them in harm’s way.
      I would suggest a mandatory minimum five year jail term served in full, for those making money out of people smuggling. Plus wealth confiscation orders + mandatory deportation for those traffickers not born here.

      • Oh yes, don’t get me wrong my empathy is for the people who are pushed to risk their lives.

        Those that take advantage and profit should be pursued and punished harshly, Not just the traffickers, but those that use and exploit these individuals For their work as practically modern slaves ( there is a massive black economy of exploiting subclasses in the western world).

        We should not only punish but completely asset strip these groups of criminals and used this to support keeping people in their own countries.

        As for the illegal immigrants themselves they are by the nature of their actions Generally individuals with a higher than average motivation ( The less motivated are all sitting in refugee camps etc). We need to think how this can be harnessed in ways that can solve the problems at the roots.

        Personally instead of paying to have them detained (at £95 a day, with 25,000-30,000ish detained a year) I would use the cash we spend in focused education programs and supported returns, so improving their lives and giving them a future and supporting the areas they are from ( hopefully in the end reducing the flow ).

        Although these tactics don’t work for nations in active conflict zones or truly repressive governments, for these we still need the asylum process.

        It’s one of those really complex risks that you have to hit hard from every possible angle you can see ( and I agree one of those is hitting those that profit as hard as you possibly can).

  16. They are illegal immigrants, they have zero right to be in our country, by law they have to take refuge in the 1st safe country. We can’t be too soft on illegal immigrants or it will only encourage more.

    The U.K. has already allowed more than enough immigrants in by now, a few and no one would have been bothered but it has went way beyond that by now, we can’t keep letting more in forever. It creates divisions in a country where previously there was none, and we get more underage girls being raped, more terror attacks, etc.

    We should try to come to an agreement with France if necessary, and also invest in more boats and U.A.V.s if they are needed to free up our military.

    • Stephen sorry but the statement about no rights is just plain incorrect. We live in a country that respects the person and the rule of law. That means every person has a set of both rights and responsibilities. So for instance Physically attacking someone without legal status carries the same penalties in law as an attack a citizen of this county. We all have the same protections of person and property, it’s a foundation of our society.

      Some other places in the world did not or still don’t hold to the universal rule of law and universal protection for the individual and property.

      It’s important to focus on the reality, There is no evidence that illegal immigration in any way increase the chances of terror attack or rapes. When you start making unevidenced statements like that you turn a lot of people away from. Discussing the issues.

      Does illegal immigration have law and order implications, yes it does, it creates a whole level of organised criminal activity as a start.
      Does illegal immigration create Social cohesion issues, yes it does it creates tensions for services that can’t plan, it creates an underclass and therefore is likely to increase criminal activity.

      But if we all start moderating our language, stop dehumanising people it does not need to be divisive and we can get on and start having a rational discussion about developing a cohesive national policy that manages all elements of the problem while still respecting the human element of what is a tragedy.

      Conditions in the world are only going to be getting harder over the next century, with more and more failed states, mass movement of populationS is something we are all going to have to get use to mangling well unless we are willing to see death on an unprecedented scale.

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