One key issue that has had significant influence on the often-torrid debate when it comes to military ship building in Scotland is the reduction of the Type 26 procurement from 13 to eight vessels.
The often passionate arguments from those who support and oppose Scottish independence makes a balanced view of military ship building in Scotland and its future difficult, as it can often end up with people shouting their ‘preferred’ facts at each other over social media rather than examining the issues.
This article was submitted by Jonathan Chartier, a defence commentator working in Government and local government IT services. This article is the opinion of the author and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines.
Traditionally, the Royal Navy has purchased ship classes from multiple yards, in distinct batches. This not only spreads programme costs, but also allows for changes and improvements to the base design and rectification work, as well as for keeping shipyards open with a constant steady stream of work. Certainly, for famous classes like the Type 12I Leander, this batch production was necessary just to keep up with the radical changes seen in electronics and systems over their extensive career.
Ordering in batches is common
So, whilst the Royal Navy would have a projected number to be built, it was not unusual for the number of batches to be reduced or, on some occasions, increased as needed without comment by the wider general public to satisfy the requirements of the Admiralty and – always lurking in the background – the Treasury. This practice continued through to the Type 23 class, which was built by competing yards Marconi Marine (YSL) in Scotstoun, and Swan Hunter in Wallsend. Interesting fact: you can tell where an individual Type 23 was built by inspecting its internal pipe fittings.
When it came to the Type 45 class, the Royal Navy projected a fleet size of twelve, split into multiple batches. A first batch of three vessels using modular construction would be split between two yards for final build with BAE Systems Marine on the Clyde and Vosper Thornycroft (VT) in Portsmouth. VT had actually built a new hall or “Ship Factory” with a new panel line to accommodate this work.
Nevertheless, BAE Systems Marine persuaded the Government of the time that it would be more cost effective for the final build to be on the Clyde, and VT ended up only providing sections. This caused much ongoing grievance amongst the people of Portsmouth, exacerbated by the eventual ending of ship building in Portsmouth in favour of the Clyde after the rationalisation of UK military shipbuilding as part of the often-talked-about Terms of Business Agreement with BAE Systems.
As it is well known, the order for Type 45 was reduced from twelve down to eight and eventually six. A change that had significant operational and political consequences that go beyond the scope of this article.
Warship building has been consolidated in Scotland
With warship construction consolidated on the Clyde, Type 26 was projected to be a build of 13 vessels; again, through multiple batches in keeping with common practice. For those familiar with military ship building, the 13 projected was at best a placeholder subject to change.
Certainly, it was well known in the period after the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security review that the equipment programme was once again being put under extreme financial pressure. Under this circumstance, it was unfortunate that the Scottish independence referendum, David Cameron, and the Better Together campaign unwisely turned routine procurement that could be subject to change into a political football game by making a direct promise to Scotland that 13 Type 26s would be built on the Clyde alongside a new “Frigate Factory”.
Party politics played their part
The Labour Party exacerbated the situation with a leaflet spelling out that if Scotland remained in the Union, it would get 13 Type 26 frigates. The Prime Minister and other Ministers plus representatives of the Better Together Campaign also regularly spelled out that a Scotland in the Union would be getting 13 Type 26 frigates.
So, when the referendum was over and Better Together had won, the reality that 13 Type 26 frigates were not deliverable within the allocated budget set in. A few months after cast-iron guarantees for 13 Type 26 frigates, the order was cut to eight as part of the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security, with a compensatory order for five general purpose frigates proffered and some Offshore Patrol Vessels ordered in their place.
“Technically” a broken promise
Considering what was promised in very clear terms by the Prime Minister, Better Together and other parties including Labour, it is understandable why Scottish Nationalists have fixated on it as a totemic issue. Put simply: 13 Type 26 frigates was a core promise by Better Together in the Independence campaign that has been, technically, broken.
Of course, the more nuanced point to be considered is that Scotland gained five River class Batch II Offshore Patrol Vessels and five Type 31 frigates (plus a “frigate factory” in Rosyth) as compensation for the loss. Scotland ended up with more shipbuilding work than promised as a result.
More work for more people at more places
This UK Defence Journal article goes into more detail about what Scottish shipyards are planning on building.
Not that the Yes campaign and SNP get away from broken promises or, more accurately, promises they couldn’t guarantee as deliverable, when it comes to military ship building and the 2014 independence referendum.
The SNP position on the future of not only military ship building but also a future Scottish Navy was wholly unrealistic. During a transition period to independence, Scottish Shipyards would certainly need to complete any ongoing orders, or at the very least, what was already in build. But they certainly couldn’t guarantee the promises they made about the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) and Royal Navy (RN) placing future orders with yards in a newly independent Scotland.
Likewise, the proposed Scottish Navy in composition was beyond what could be practically operated by any nascent Scottish navy initially.
An independent Scotland would focus on fisheries rather than frigates
The idea that Type 23 and Type 26 would form the cornerstone of a future Scottish Navy clashes with the reality that Scotland lacks the widespread training and support facilities needed to operate these vessels. Let alone the range of crew who could not be guaranteed to end their careers in the Royal Navy to join a Scottish Naval Service. To be fair, more recent proposals by the SNP on the matter, at least in respect of fleet composition, have been more realistic. However, the expectations for orders from the UK MOD and RN towards Scottish yards – if Scotland gained independence – are still unrealistic.
Whilst beyond the scope of this article, it is the opinion of the author that the basis of any future Scottish Naval Service would most realistically be formed around the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency, and the scale and role of its vessels would not be unlike the Icelandic Coastguard.
Sadly, this angry debate is set to continue with accusations, counter-accusations and many a myth spun. However, what all of this shows is the danger of politicising military shipbuilding, although this is not the first time it has happened. No doubt, a Ghostly Winston Churchill would give a little chuckle, considering the trouble induced by the Government of the day in 1906, when asking the public how many Dreadnoughts they wanted, only to get the response, “We want eight and we won’t wait”… two more than requested by the Admiralty.
One issue that needs to be given some thought, is that the majority of Scottish people are Unionists, and this was from a Scotsman on the radio. He went on to say the fixation with separation is mostly with the wine-drinking elite in the cities, who despise being told what to do by the UK. If true, the threat of splitting the Union may be less than the media would have us believe?
The wine drinking elites have a lot of influence despite them being a minority; they own the newspapers – social medial – they make the headlines, they run the institutions of state and have the ears of our politicians. They are used to getting their way and don’t take kindly to being told “NO”.
I’d suggest that nearly every political division in the Western world comes from this powerful minority leveraging their influence to achieve their political goals in contrast to the natural will of the majority.
Very true, however, the gentleman in question may just represent a deeper routed Unionism that might win again on the day? The intellectual debate on independence will now be an ongoing cauldron on both sides of the border for years, whichever way the vote goes, that’s just the nature of the beast.
No not really, the direction has been solidly towards supporting independence across most demographics in Scotland.
Im sure most British and NIR people would support Scotland having a vote for Independence and whilst it would be a shame if the vote was yes to Independence we would get over it but its the politicians which are more worried and are not speaking for everyone they represent as usual
A very interesting article. Focusing on Scotlands actual needs ….. it’s certainly true that if Scotland broke from the union, operating a couple of T26’s would utterly break their (real not fairlytale) allocated defence budget, love to know what they would use a 5 inch gun for!
I would imagine an independent Scotland would end up with an Irish Republic sized and configured armed forces, partly because that’s all they would actually need and partly because they couldn’t afford anything more.
So a handful of River Class and similar to control Scottish waters …..
6 or so battalions of light infantry and a deal with the UK for air defence.
Hi John,
I think your assessment is probably the most realistic I have seen posted anywhere! I would also suggest that it is shared by our allies, particularly the US, which probably explains why they are so against the break up of the Union.
The vulnerability posed by Ireland to the West would be replicated to the North and would likely be the more serious ‘hole’ in NATO’s defences. Size matters when is comes to military strength and splitting up the UK would definately be a weakening move.
Whilst I hope Scotland does not leave the Union, they do have the right under our constitutional law to decide for themselves, all be it with the agreement of Parliament. So I guess we may yet face more up heaval in the future!
Sad.
Cheers CR
Well absolutely they have the right … A right that was democratically voted on and decided 6 short years ago…
It’s a generational vote, so 25 years minimum in my opinion, or perhaps 30 years. Anything other than that and it’s impossible to plan any form of medium term investment and extremely damaging to the national economy.
For those that say leaving the EU has changed the terms of the 2014 referendum, it hasn’t, I’ve looked and I can’t see any caviats involving national votes triggering a new referendum written anywhere.
The referendum was first studied, cleared and monitored by the electoral commission.
If such a clause is there, please do point it out, I would be genuinely interested to read it.
Such decisions need to clear and long lasting from a Royal Navy perspective, or how can we plan our future build strategy?
Hi John,
Whilst I generally agree with what you say, particularly regarding the generational nature of the referendum we are talking about politics.
The truth is Cameron made a public promise to Scotland that he would deliver a Remain vote which he could not deliver. Whilst this was not written into any formal agreement and is not legally binding it does create a significant political jeopardy. If politicians make such promises on the public stage they should not be surprised if they get held to them by the public. Sadly for the UK this promise has not been foregotten by the SNP or the Scottish people. If we get a deal and bounce back quickly post COVID then the desire for Indy2 might recede, but that is two big if’s!
One thing Brexit does suggest is that if it has been a challenge to disentangle us from the EU after less than 50 years how difficult will it be to disentangle Scotland from the rest of the UK after 400 years? Frankly there is only one way to find out and I do not relish that experience…
Cheers CR
Thats the problem with the Scottish people, they are so quick to turn against the rest of the UK when times are hard instead of being united, The EU could only wish the had something to resemble our own union!! I hope the people of Scotland remember that.
You do realise how shockingly patronising that statement is?! You talk up the wonders of the Union of the United Kingdom whilst in the same breath declaring Scots to be quick to turn against the UK…
It is attitudes like that in England which have driven support for Scottish support for independence!
I would also like to remind you that majority in Scotland support EU membership and regard Brexit as reneging on promises made in the 2014 referendum.
Scotland had its vote and being part of a democratic Union WE all got a vote and the majority voted to leave so thats the end of it. Cameron stood down because he made a promise that he couldnt keep. I personally am not worried about Scottish independence, you get what you vote for either way no good moaning about it
It was a promise and it has been broken…a No to Independence was a guarantee to Remain in the EU in 2014…that hasn’t been forgotten.
That is why a large proportion of Remainers who voted No to Independence have flipped their position…it just so happens that is a critical number of voters enough to push overall support for independence close to 60%.
I would say all things have consequence…
We did for two years then we voted and it was leave
How?
So, you’re going with ignore the bits of the history of your Union that doesn’t fit your narrative?
Evening CR, it’s interesting how many of the discussions here rapidly put Cameron into sharp focus!
He was a gambler in so many ways, I guess this was another of his gambles.
To be fair, he did promise a referendum on the EU, along with the Scottish vote and either could have gone another way.
I don’t personally think there should be one for at least another 20 years.
That said, I’m confident that post Brexit, the UK will prosper and the SNP will wither on the vine as support drops back.
Just my opinion or course, other will differ!
I do find modern combative politics rather unsettling as the SNP has certainly been incredibly decisive, becoming rather adept at driving in a wedge between the Union and spinning up anti English feelings.
They really do seem to be a one trick pony, assuming they manage to get a second referendum and win, I sincerely hope they can actually accomplish some of their program of government without breaking Scotland and massively increasing taxation…
I really can’t see how they intend to do it, without serious borrowing, savage cuts and massive tax hikes, perhaps Cameron is an SNP advisor!
Is that the same Irish Republic that’s now the 5th wealthiest nation on the planet vs UK at 28. Starting to sound better already.
Really, the Irish Republic is the 5th wealthiest country in the world, I never new that!
In that case they can buy 100 Typhoons and help protect the poor old UK languishing at a paltry 28th, they can certainly also easily replace the money in the EU pot from the UK leaving, that’s for sure….
Are you sure you haven’t put the decimal point in wrong place LOL.??
Hi BASRA, You might also refer to the annual UN HDI (Human Development Index) report.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/download-data
If so, even better, because using the criteria/model in question – Eire was 2nd in the world during 2019!
This report is often quoted to me by my nationalist supporting friends.
I agree, Eire is a great country – but better than USA, Germany, Japan, France etc? Really?
And certainly the UK (Scotland) didn’t do too badly in 13th spot – also above USA, Japan, France and Italy!
Really in these reports, the difference between highly developed countries is so marginal – down to percentage points – one can make of them what one wishes.
But lets congratulate Eire and the UK (Scotland) in doing so well in this year’s UN HDI report.
Maybe because lots of companies register their accounts in Ireland
As I said in the article I would say the Icelandic Coastguard is a better baseline for any future Scottish Naval Service versus the Irish Naval Service.
That being said the scope and scale of any future Scottish Naval Service will be unique to Scotland and depend on multiple factors that are difficult to pin down at this time.
There are also other interesting details like would it have ‘Royal’ as part of its title? I must admit the RSNL does have a certain ring to it but then again … I am a Republican so maybe I am having a funny turn!
I mean RSNS…a real funny turn!
RSNL, sounds like a classy 1930’s Atlantic Ocean Liner company …. Nice ring to it!
It’s hard to see why a hypothetical Scottish Navy would need frigate sized warships, I would have thought River class type ships would adequately do the job for customs/ fisheries protection etc.
The cost of operating complex warships would be excessive and hard to justify to the tax payer.
Back to the referendum, just curious, but how could Cameron give the Scottish people a cast iron guarantee we would remain in in the EU, whilst simultaneously taking a referendum on membership to the UK a few years later, it was being worked on at the time after all?
Genuinely curious, I really can’t remember this being a much discussed issue at the time Fedaykin?
We will see I suppose, in the cold light of day Indipendance is a ‘seriously expensive’ understanding for a country that will have a limited ability to spend and conversely, a population currently used to the highest personal spending in the UK (more spent per head than England and Wales).
Will people really understand that taxes will have to substantially rise and public spending will be cut for a generation?
The difficulties of EU membership…. Assuming entry is accepted, (there’s no guarantee), as the EU would probably prefer to deal, trade and financialy benefit from Britain as a whole, rather than take on a country they would have to supliment economically for years, not much appetite for that in Brussels for the next 20 years.
Also, ‘assuming’ the rest of the UK go WTO rules, Scotland would effectively be cutting itself off from its most important market, finding itself in an extremely difficult position.
It makes Brexit look like an absolute stroll in the park by comparison…..
My grandmother was a McDonald and I feel it would be dreadful for us all if the Union collapsed.
The remaining counties would probably be better off financially, with much needed investment diverted from Scotland and going to the often overlooked North East and West of England, not least defence work, warship building etc.
But we would all loose something very special in my opinion…..
Christ, that’s just stupid. There are a multitude of factors of difference between the ROI’s position on defence and a Scottish position.
Good morning Mark, obviously we are talking a hypothetical stance on defence as there currently (and may never be) an Indipendent Scottish position.
I drew a comparison based on an independent Scotland’s ability to pay regarding defence and what would actually be required.
If, lots of if’s…..
If an independent Scotland joined NATO it would likely have to allocate 2%.
If it joined the EU, then it will likely be enveloped in a future unified EU Defence Force anyway, that’s the problem of joining a Federal structure like the EU, you’re swept along with the current and you have no choice were it ends up.
It’s gone from a Common Market to a Political Union in 50 years with a flag currency and all the trappings of a state, I wouldn’t want to guess we’re it will be in another 20 and see no reason for creeping federation to suddenly stop.
Every development of the EU has been shaped by the nations within it, as evidenced by opt outs and restrictions as it has developed. As to the question of any “unified Defence Force”, highly unlikely, it and Foreign Policy are still areas where you have widely divergent positions even among the big nations and nobody willing to be forced into a conflict (for example Germany sitting out the UK/French adventure in Libya).
The most likely thing well see is more attempts to streamline procurement for example, but large scale integration isn’t likely.
I cannot understand why folks who are against Independence feel the need to run Scotland down. Perhaps the lack of any aspiration under the Union leads to a mindset that simply cannot conceive of anything other than decline and squalor. By all means, suggest that Scotland may have smaller armed forces because of political decisions, but this nonsense – “because they couldn’t afford anything more.” really needs to stop; it’s ridiculous. Explain, please, why you think that Scotland is inherently less capable of building and running a sound economy than every other 5Mpop country in Northern Europe? The truth is, Scottish nationalists do not have any notion of Scottish Exceptionalism – we are not special in any way. But what we reject is the notion that our country is exceptional in it’s poverty. We are not uniquely poor, stupid or small – and if those who value the Union cannot engage in good faith with any positive vision for Scotland’s future whatsoever, then there is even less reason for us to hang around hoping for change.
The view of one Scotsman on the Radio might be the majority in Scotland are Unionist but that isn’t born out by recent polling.
All age demographics bar the over 65’s support Scottish Independence, the younger the voter the more overwhelming the support.
The shift of voters who voted No to Independence in 2014 but Remain in the EU in 2016 over to supporting Scottish independence has caused a significant shift in support over to Yes in the last year.
It wasn’t so much the lone voice of the man on the radio, like the fact that unionism is a factor. I agree this may be applicable to the over 50’s and the younger voters not so swayed by historical pressures. At the end of the day, the SNP has to be brutally honest about the full economic cost to what is a relatively small population. Some analysts say independence is viable but others fear bankruptcy as too many of Scotland’s young leave to work in other countries? The risk of this is a predominately third age population until such time, a reestablished UK free economy can offer considerably more career opportunities?
My experience of independence voters is the opposite of the ‘wine drinking elite’. I’m not saying there aren’t any but I’ve met far more…. how can I put it….. definitely NOT the ‘wine drinking elite’ (I think I got away with not outing myself as a snob 😉 ). There is a groundswell of support for independence, change like this is always more exciting and if you’ve not got much to lose then you’re probably more willing to roll the dice.
Independence scares the crap out of me but things are picking up speed. Wee Jimmy has come out of covid so much better than BoJo which is being pushed as a Holyrood V Westminster thing as part of the push by the SNP. From their point of view it makes sense and across most the age groups support for independence is increasing. I can’t see this going away any time soon, I just hope that in the post covid wash up that the SNP’s handling is found wanting and the numbers supporting independence drop. Because Westminster saying NAW to another referendum is only a short term fix, BoJo might only care what happens on his watch so happy to block it in the short term but traditionally when you keeping telling someone NAW, we all know what happens.
My late English mum loved Scotland with a passion, which must have rubbed off on me too! I love the country and could easily live there if given a chance. But, there is always a but, is independence affordable? The notion that reentry into the EU could be achieved relatively easily, could be a huge act of faith? The Scottish debt would not lubricate the tracks, but could dissuade many struggling members who would not wish to see vital funds being shared and dwindled by a new player? After COVID the net effect on the EU budget is probably being played down (just as it is around the globe) but the ramifications could be horrendous? Without current UK financial aid, the average Scott will be asked to pay considerably more toward social costs, which could prove to be too restrictive to the voter? I personally believe an independence vote should be deferred until the World’s finances are considerably more stable and that is likely to be many years?
You’ll not get much argument from me on that logic Maurice, but then I’m not a fan of independence. If I thought that people in Scotland were going to be better off then I could get it but like you, I don’t think that will be the case.
The SNP have shifted their political stance to Left of Centre from a more (small C) conservative (and probably more middle class) approach as ultimately its not their priority and with Scotland generally being Left of Centre they had nothing to lose as all roads lead to independence. Once its ‘done’ then that’s it, no going back, whether an Indy Scotland joins the EU (It could be a coup for EU to get at least some of the former UK back in the fold) or gets knocked back.
I think it will happen in my lifetime and I’m 52, there is a pretty solid base of 45% give or take that are consistently for it and it won’t take much to get that to a 50+% and we seem to be there at the moment.
I think the struggle that often happens between those in Scotland in favour of independence and those outside Scotland trying to understand it is that financial arguments won’t challenge the view truly.
Whilst of course there is a believe that some (not all) have that Scotland will be better off financially when independent, at the heart of it, it comes down to the belief that Scotland as a historic and ancient country has a right to self determination.
For the same reason that many of those in favour of Brexit appear to accept that there will be an immediate financial hit to Britain (with or without a trade deal), they believe that in the long run Britain will be better off financially, or just in terms of self-determination. The same applies to those in favour of Scottish Independence, the long term benefit is worth any short-term hit.
With regard to recent events the Johnson administration has only furthered this belief for many. As a Scot who grew-up in the north of England the approach over the last year has only furthered my animosity to the south of England wing of the tory party. The underperformance of the SNP in running Scotland should be a home run for any unionist PM. Care home COVID deaths, school performance, drug deaths, etc. Yet somehow the tory cabinet manage to either do things to look even more incompetent or just make crass statements that challenge nothing and just fan the flames/give the SNP ammunition. Take for example exams results of school pupils this summer. Gavin Williamson saw how badly things went in Scotland, and had a few weeks to change things in England to hammer home how bad the SNP had handled it in Scotland, yet somehow he managed to make even more of a mess of it.
I think it’s reached a point – or at least for me as former strongly pro-Union and now wavering – that the perceived arrogance, incompetence and verging on open corruption of this UK Government has pushed some people in Scotland toward independence because there’s a sense of why not go for independence because how can they be any worse than this lot. And yes we of course vote as a UK for our prime minister and many Scots do vote Tory for a host of reasons, but the values of the Tory Party (or at least this cabinet) are so far detached from many Scots (and I’m sure English, Welsh & Northern Irish) that being governed by them becomes painful.
I think you’ve summed it up nicely for a lot of people Robert.
It’s funny how the UK forgets that pretty much the same arguments failed to keep the majority of Ireland in the Union a hundred years ago, yet they just repeat them.
Morning Andy, we certainly live in interesting times mate, Brexit has shown us that people aren’t predictable at the ballet box!
I guess we will see. A good friend of mine owns a large building company and he’s already measured up Hadrian’s wall, he went up there last week with his Jewson tape measure and builders pencil behind his ear to quote on adding 6 feet to the wall.
Hope he gets the contract John. 🙂
Yeah, interesting times, scary times really and not just the covid. Or Brexit…lots of places around the world are getting a bit more antsy.
I suppose the numbers involved with UK debt might put a lot of people off it, depending on how its handled but both the Brexit and previous Indy ref were both shocking campaigns by both sides, lots of lies etc. The lack of a credible opposition to the SNP in Scotland leading to ‘evil outsiders from England’ telling us what to do might be used against a Remain campaign. Maybe someone like ‘big Gogs Broon’ could head it up. The SNP’s failures really don’t get taken to task enough.
The one thing that might play to the Remain camp is the headlong rush for a vote by some members of the SNP for a referendum, this has to be managed by the top of the party, real heart over head stuff.
I do think there’s an air of inevitability about it though unless things change.
Opinion polls would increasingly disagree with you but they are probably wrong so let’s just go with what some random Scottish guys said on the radio MAGA.
“the majority of Scottish people are Unionists, and this was from a Scotsman on the radio.” Thankfully, we have a better guide of opinion – Polls and elections. The polls currently say that no, the majority of Scottish people are not Unionists. in fact, when you look at anyone under the age of fifty, you find that hardly any Scots are unionists – more than 65% of Scots under 50 support Independence.
Absolute nonsense, unionists in Scotland are in the minority as I see it and the history of Government promises then retractions have reinforced the anti Govt stance of many from more working class elements in Scotland.
Weaponizing Defence will backfire, especially with Faslane and the claims for jobs potentially to be lost if independence is the option that we go for. Many of the jobs claimed are associated with Faslane but many of them are based elsewhere in RUK, then there is the morality and safety issue of living a couple of miles from the base, a base that will be a priority target. Whatever the UK does in any conflict, we will be one of the first sites to be hit, no thank you, I would rather live poorer than experience that.
The last ‘Frigate factory’ promise was quickly ditched after the referendum, the same will happen again.
Isn’t there a frigate factory being built at Rosyth?
Hmmmm? Not sure all your facts are correct, but that aside, there are some reports that suggest support for separation is reducing as more Scotts reconsider the consequences of a YES vote. However, we live in a democracy and I’m sure a vote will be offered?
WINE DRINKING ELITE? THATS PLAIN STUPID
It may be, however, a number of the above acknowledge their power.
We should move all of our warship building back to the other three countries; just because the uncertainty around the desire to be independent creates significant risk. The T26 build goes out to 2038; honestly I cannot imagine Scotland still being with us in 2038 (as sad as that is) so from the 4th ship we should look to move elsewhere (perhaps after completion of the FSS build).
Why would you move anything to NI? It’s got a very low level of capacity, has political issues that dwarf Scottish issues, and has a treaty bound right to a vote on Unification and one that actually has a set time limit for repeat votes as well.
“We should move all of our warship building back to the other three countries”. Nah, mate, you should move it all back to England. England is the largest population block in the UK, your economy is bigger. 99% of the time when your leaders and celebrities say “britain”, they mean England anyway, so embrace it. How much happier would the English people be, having a bit of pride in a their Royal Navy, built in England, flying the St George’s cross? Get some good shipbuilding jobs back in Southampton! it was absolutely ridiculous that the yard was shut down, just to try to bribe Scotland into staying. We saw through it, you saw it for what it was; a naked bribe. I do not understand why you folks don’t embrace your own country. “England” is not a dirty word. You would be happier, and miraculously, we rebellious Scots would manage to get on just fine without those “handouts”. We would make better neighbours and allies than we ever would being held here against our will.
if Scotland wish to be independent, then I fully respect that. It would only be a truly terrible organisation that would attempt to punish a country for democratically choosing to go their own way, like, say the EU are doing.
I think it’s becoming more likely Scotland will chose to be independent and we should all plan for that eventuality.
Argyll
Based on my own personal experience, I think what English people really want is for the Scots to remain within the United Kingdom. And they do so simply for feelings of friendship and common kinship.
As a fellow Scot, I really feel these silly and petulant comments do you no credit.
But I’m sure you can do better – and I look to forward reading more of your posts during the coming weeks.
“I really feel these silly and petulant comments do you no credit. But I’m sure you can do better ”
Good grief. You are talking to a fifty year old adult who has actually worked in the defence industry, not a school child.
The overbearing paternalism of unionists is tedious at the best of times, but in your case, it seems to be matched by your ability to be offensively condescending. Again, though – keep on going. These attitudes, unpleasant as they are, drive people into the open arms of the Pro-Indy camp.
Argyll
Sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you, but I do think you rather let the side down in your comments to Grant. So-called “unionists” aren’t so bad you know …. all they want to do is keep the people of these islands together for the common good.
By the way, congratulations on reaching your half-century. In that case you must have taken part in the 2014 Referendum – the greatest democratic exercise in Scotland’s history. On that basis, I find it strange that you believe we are being held in the UK against our will.
” … rebellious Scots would manage to get on just fine without those “handouts” …… than we ever would being held here against our will.”
These comments bear no relation to reality: we’re not in the 14th century and Scots are already a free people.
I think these dreadful “unionists” are simply rational people who appreciate facts and carefully thought-out arguments. For me, Scottish separatism produces plenty of emotion and smart-alec comments – but lacks coherence and credibility.
Personally, as a Scot, I genuinely like the kind, generous, tolerant and humorous people we share this island with – I don’t want to live in a different country from them, and so far separatists have given me no rational reason why I should.
If any reasonable person from any part of the United Kingdom were to sit down and really think about what a breakup of the UK would entail then surely only a small minority would support such a disaster. The break away from the EU of which we have been a member for a relatively short period, is proving to be a logistical nightmare. No matter which side of the divide one sits on, none of this was envisaged by any of us. The SNP have cleverly exploited this situation but the truth is that a destruction of the United Kingdom would make Brexit look like the proverbial picnic! There is no doubt that the shipbuilding situation was manipulated to influence opinion and hey, we got two Aircraft Carriers as a bonus on the side, but the ONLY way to settle this situation once and for all is a proper Constitutional Conference on the way forward for a new Federal UK that removes some of the absurdities of the present situation. . Defence would obviously feature in that exercise and yes, we really are better together in that field. as things stand we have a solid,powerful and effective shield against our adversaries and shared by all four Home Nations. The splitting and duplication of these assets not to mention the consequent weakening of the whole structure would improve things only for our enemies.
The problem is the time for a Constitutional convention was about 15 years ago, the current Tory Government is moving in the opposite direction to the idea of a Federal UK.
Whilst support for Scottish independence has been gradually increasing amongst all demographics in Scotland since 2014 there has been a significant surge in the last year due to perceptions about the Covid response but also a significant swing by ABC2 voters who had voted No in 2014 but also to Remain in the EU in 2016 over to supporting Scottish Independence.
I also think that there is a significant misunderstanding amongst people in England about how politics work in Scotland and the importance of the Scottish Parliament here. Also the general attitude I have seen from people in England across the political spectrum is Nicola Sturgeon is ‘just’ the leader of a minor third party failing to understand that she is the First Minister of the Scottish Parliament a position with significant political meaning and heft in Scotland.
So true geoff, your first sentence is absolutely spot on…..but you could say exactly the same about the UK leaving the EU!
Morning Herodotus. I think leaving the UK was a big mistake and yet there is much truth in the assertion that we are to an extent held captive by that organisation still and going forward. We should be able to negotiate a reasonable and close relationship with Europe that allows us independence of action in shaping our destiny in the world at large but at the same time, membership of any organisation anywhere requires the member to follow the rules-one really cannot have one’s cake and eat it! For me the difference between the Eu and the British Union is the time frame. Britain joined the nascent European Union 45 years ago. The UK had its beginnings arguably from 1606 with the Union of the Crowns over four centuries back.We are also much closer,Nats notwithstanding, by most measure, than we were to our European cousins-in language,geography, history,institutions,culture and identity.
I should shut up now-I promised George I would behave..:)
leaving the EU..
Thanks for the reply geoff! I pretty much concur with your sentiments, I also agree that the EU club could be somewhat suffocating and, at times, overweening. But if we had any role in the EU then it was as insider reformers. I guess we joined the EEC somewhat too late. Clem Atlee and Herbert Morrison missed a golden opportunity when Labour was invited to join the Schuman plan! I also have some sympathy with the more thinking elements of Scottish nationalism. Scotland has a fantastic cultural heritage: engineers, scientists, doctors of medicine, artists, designers, economists, philosophers, writers…..so much so that Winston Churchill had argued that, given the size of the population, no country has given so much to the world. With a population of a similar size to Denmark, the aspirational objective of being an independent Scandinavian style democracy must be very compelling. I wish them luck with it as it looks much more likely now….especially with the poor standard of governance from Westminster. In some ways, the Scots are far more attached to Europe than the English are!
There’ll always be an England, as long as Scotland’s there.. 🙂
We reformed nothing in the EU. It’s all fixed by France and Germany. They were the two between them in the end that started wars between 1870 and 1939. Now they want to fix it with their hegemony. And underneath them are a gang of lefty eurofederalistic apparatchiks.
Texas has more freedom and democracy within the USA compared to Poland in the EU.
Utter nonsense.
What a bleak view of Europe! Given the unfortunate move to the right in Poland of late (homophobic and anti abortionist), I would imagine that Texan Trumpists would feel really at home in Warsaw!
Texas went Republican. It’s called democracy. But the wider nation voted for Biden. The people had a vote in their country for their President, not like in the EU. And each governor had an election as well. Even the Sheriffs have an election. Even the DAs as well.
Chalk and cheese! An utterly pointless comparison. I think that you will find that much of Europe has elected officials…even Britain elects its police and crime commissioners and mayors etc. As for our Shire-Reeves (Sheriffs), their authority peaked in the medieval period…they are high court bailiffs now 🙂
Well, I’m sick of hearing about Scots and independence!
They voted and they stayed.
We seem to always give work to them and as Grant says we should bring more shipbuilding back this side of the border as that would be a good test of Scottish will power.
We would obviously also need to change the way we build RN ships.
Stop all these big orders to the Scots or just one or two big companies just to please them and instead create a consortium, one common goal to build ships for the RN.
This brings in smaller companies that could actually do the work but are all too often sidelined and left to build dinghies and yachts.
Several designs made…One design specification outcome, with an agreed input from all companies.
Then the MOD / Government decides which one.
The many shipyards should get a ship to build not just the elite few!
Spread the works out and create more jobs and future infrastructure and skills base.
It an investment for future security and local economies.
Scotland can be a part of it or be shut out of it… it is that simple!
“Well, I’m sick of hearing about Scots and independence!
They voted and they stayed.
We seem to always give work to them and as Grant says we should bring more shipbuilding back this side of the border as that would be a good test of Scottish will power.”
That line of thinking increases support for Independence in Scotland, it undermines the Union as it suggests Scotland is not an active member but a charity case given gifts of work from the English and permitted a one off vote on independence that is immutable to changing facts.
If people want to save the Union the tone of conversation about Scotland by those in England needs to change to a more respectful manner.
“Well, I’m sick of hearing about Scots and independence!” I can think of a really easy solution there John. quick as a flash, and you’ll never need to hear about us ever again… 😀
One thing we can be sure about is that the SNP lies, and will continue to lie, through its (not least her) teeth.
The SNP are not ‘Scotland’… they like to think they are. Even worse, recent events clearly show themselves to think that the SNP are the same thing as the Scottish Government.
Are Scots really that fussed about protecting military ship building on the Clyde? I ask, as the areas most effected by any yard closures ie Glasgow, were the only areas to vote for independence.
Red areas were majority union
Green areas were majority independence.
When we are talking about referendums that graphic doesn’t tell the whole picture and gives a false impression based upon a false comparison with Parliamentary style FPTP elections. People voted to Remain in the Union and for Independence across all of Scotland a vote that gave a binary choice. Declaring the ‘Red bits’ for the Union because a majority voted in those areas that way gives an incorrect impression of actual support for Scottish Independence.
Hi Fedaykin,
I fully agree with you regarding the map and it not being a true representation of independence feeling.
What I was really trying to portray is that ship building may not be such an important issue when people were deciding on remain or independence. It is just the press and the politicians who portray it is.
In the same way that fishing rights were not that important an issue for people who voted for brexit.
“What I was really trying to portray is that ship building may not be such an important issue when people were deciding on remain or independence.”
I agree with that position albeit as I have pointed out elsewhere this article is an investigation of the issue not a statement that it is a dominant issue.
“In the same way that fishing rights were not that important an issue for people who voted for brexit.”
That I disagree with, fishing has sadly become a major issue for Brexit supporters (and Remainers who like to point out how insignificant it is).
Note: insignificant as an industry to the economy…
?♂️
Surely though it is logical to have back up facilities in England, in event Scots do hypocritically vote for “independence”. Portsmouth should never have been sacrificed over the Clyde, that was blatant appeasement.
I think in terms of lies or spin used by the No campaign the number of Type 26 frigates built on the Clyde is largely irrelevant in comparison to Pulling out of the EU with the Brexit cluster F**K and all the new powers the Scottish parliament was going to get (ended up getting control of air passenger duty) and some how federal Britain turned in to EVEL because John Redwood and the Torys said that England’s parliament will always be Westminster (No way they could ever have a parliament for England in Manchester). Frigate numbers and a few jobs on the Clyde pail in comparison to all of that. Also a promise for Hs2 in Scotland ( not happening now) was made but again minor points especially given the complete clown show of the governments COVID response.
Also not particularly helpful that the British Prime Minister is on record as saying that no Scottish MP should ever be allowed to be the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom which kind of disenfranchise all 5 million people in Scotland but yeah let’s focus on the frigates.
Oh I forgot Michael Gove ( we don’t want him back) best not to keep sending him to Scotland but yeah frigates.
I would agree with that observation albeit as this is a Defence focused website the debate over Frigate numbers is going to be the main subject of discussion in any article.
My problem as an Englishman who lives in Scotland is the woeful understanding across the political spectrum in England about how politics and basic societal structures work in Scotland. The sheer ignorance about law, taxation and the Scottish Parliament amongst the English is depressing at times.
Upgrade the East Coast Main Line and electrifie Midlands Mainline instead of HS2.
Funnily enough the midlands mainline does not actually go to Scotland, not that I’m that bothered about HS2 but it was one of many promises made that were rapidly forgotten and papered over as with frigate building.
I agree! It has potential to go north.
Personally, I love Scotland, I also love the People, i really hope we can all live together happily like we have for so long. i’m happy to see Scotland building RN Ships and giving so much employment ….. We are all one big Family. Articles like this just fan the flames in my opinion.
Think about the millions of the rUK money and the coal from Wales which turn us into the first industrialised nation (which the Scots didnt complain about) help to make Scotland what it is today over 400 hundred years as well as the lives lost protecting the whole of the UK. There will be one hell of a divorce bill to be paid by Scotland, and before you mention the OIL that has not been available for the whole of the Union. We will/ or have paid a divorce bill of 34 Billion with the EU. but dont forget we paid in more than we got back. The Scottish people have as long as the Barnet formula has been in existence had more money per head received than any of the other resident in the home nations
Strewth, Drewball, yet another unpaid recruiting sergeant for the separatists!
There often seem more outside Scotland, than within these borders!
You do know that Scotland also had coal, lots of it – and iron?
Are you aware that during the last 40 years, the fiscal balance between Scotland and rUK has been broadly in balance? Or that outside London and the south-east, in terms of tax-generation, Scotland is one of the more efficient nations and regions in the UK? Or that Edinburgh is one of the leading financial centres in the world? And far from having a distinctively high-level of public spending, Northern Ireland receives more of UK largesse than does Scotland – and with a lot more (angry) nationalists too!
A newly independent Scotland would have many economic challenges. But the monetary side of the divorce would be relatively straight-forward – Scotland would expect 8% of the gold reserves held in the Bank of England’s vaults, but in return would be obliged to take about the same share of UK liabilities. And the Scots could use the Pound if they wanted too (another old chestnut); Sterling is only a means of exchange – not an economic asset.
What wouldn’t be straight-forward would be the politics of the divorce, which would be bitter and rancorous, and makes Brexit seem like child’s play (with the added complication of all the nuclear warheads stored in underground bunkers just a few miles from Glasgow).
But here’s the thing: Scotland is undoubtedly economically better off in the UK, and through sharing sovereignty receives lots of benefits and opportunities that it wouldn’t obtain as an independent nation. As a Scot, I don’t need to feel ashamed of that, particularly as the Scots have helped shape the United Kingdom over the last 313 years! And as a Scot, I feel British – and want to remain within the same country (UK) as the rest of the people I share these islands with.
If we do have another referendum, and you want to play a part – here’s a tip. Stress the positives of the UK, and if some Scots have doubts, understand their point of view – but make them feel welcome and equal partners in our endeavour. Please leave the negative and destructive arguments to the separatists.
Make the UK seem a place of prosperity, opportunity, mutual respect – and a great club in which to be member. That’s how to keep a country together!
Words of great wisdom Alan. Thank you.
Alan please stop quoting facts, it’s simply not required clearly. Scotland has no coal and played no part in the industrial revolution. That’s why Cardiff was the centre of British shipbuilding and James Watt actually came from Bognor Regis.
Wasn’t he a Coventry Player….. or was it his brother Cyrille ?
Thomas Newcomen and oak from the forest of dean to build the HMS Victory as well dont forget
Possibly the MoD with the RN needs to rethink its ship build stratagy. At the moment Scotland and the SNP can take the MoD and RN for granted. Where else in the UK could or do they build warships,where else in the UK do they have a SSN/SSBN permanant base with all the needed infrastructure, where else in the UK can the QEs undrgo refit and repair. So at the moment the SNP can say even if they were to go independent shipbuilding would stay. The SNP use ship building numbers as a stick to beat Westminster with. Not only that but want DDGs/FFGs based in Scotland, yet they shout for an independent Scotland. Maybe the SNP should ask themselves why would Westminster invest into Scotland when the main political party wants to rip up the UK. Scotland should also ask for example does Wales have any RN base, does Wales have any shipbuilding for the RN/RFA does Wales have any RAF fast jet base apart from the training base at Valley. No yet do the people or Welsh Assembly shout we want independence, No except a few from Plaid.
Yet the MoD can start to do things diffrently, lets start with the FSS ships, well they could go to Belfast or Liverpool. Then we have the new T32s, what they will be I don’t know. They seem to be able to operate as frigates but have ROV/UAV mother ship capability. If that is the case then I expect them to be about 6,000 tons and very much like the Damen Crossover combattant type vessel. If it is true that the government wants the RN to have 24 DDGs/FFGs then that could mean five of these vessels. So build them in say the NE of England. We are also going to need some replacements for Albion and Bulwark, so if Belfast gets the FSS order then Liverpool gets the LPD/LHD order. It would give BAE and Babcock the possibilty to move South of the border with ship building infrastructure in place.
As for the QEs there are several locations that have dry dock capability to take the QEs so refit these dry dock facilities to take the QEs. Possibly even carry out the proposed extention to the dry dock in Portsmouth for the QEs.
That leaves the issue of the submarine fleet. When looking at the UK its sea shelf etc there is limited geographic areas that would be suitable, in fact there is only two that I can see outside Faslane. Pembroke and Devonport. Devonport at the moment carries out the refit of all submarines so it should be possible to have all the capability of Faslane. At a push we could possbly have our bombers based out of the US until we can get things sorted out.
This would do several things remove the stick of England is basing nuclear missiles in Scotland against Scotlands will, show to Scottish ship builders there is the capability outside Scotland for the RN to build ships. Increase skills base, work loads work share etc in the ship building industry. By increasing capability better effeciancy would be created meaning lower costs and more compition. It does seem to me that the SNP are well wanting their cake and eat it. The more Scotland gets the more the SNP wants, yet if a project paid for by Westminster went to England its look how Westminster does not take the needs of Scotland into account there is a need for independence HS2 comes to mind. Yet transport is a devolved matter, so if Scotland wants to link into the HS2 project then they could pay for the link to the border.
Here is possibly an idea, Scotland pays all its debt of to the rest of the UK and then it can have a referendum on independence. If I remember correctly Scotlands national debt is about 15% GDP whereas the UK national debt is just over 3%, these are figures before COVID19.
Scotland also seem to forget England did not want unification Scotland did after their failed Darian project that left the Scots bankrupt. It was a Scottish king that caused the English civil war, It was a Scottish king that allied itself with France for money from the French and took England into a war with the Dutch, a war that England did not want. Bits of history that the SNP forget to mention. I am not English but a 50-50 Welsh/Scot but I do study history. The issue that the people of Scotland have is this with the SNP shouting all the time how unfair England and Westminster is the people from the rest of the UK are having enough and getting fed up. Many are starting to think that they want a referendum to see if they want Scotland to remain in the UK. To be honest I don’t know the numbers but I think it might supprise just how many would want to see the back of the SNP. NE England and Liverpool would love to see ship building return, British Government jobs would come south of the border. I think the British government employes directly or indirectly 130,000 in Scotland. Many areas would get a boost to local investment as Westminster would no longer need to spend almost twice the amount per head in Scotland as it does in England. The Barnet formula was meant to be a intrim solution.
So I just wish for the unity of these four nations that the SNP would stop using the stick and start working together for the intrest of the Scottish people and the peoples of the UK.
Oh dear Ron, how long did it take you to type all that up. Unfortunately there’s some… how can I put it…. um… ‘non facts’ tossed in, enough for this smooth pimp daddy to discount all the rest of the tear stained rant.
Rant, not really, the figures on Scotlands debt and government employment either direct or indeirect is from the ONS. Direct work is employees indirct is government funded projects everything from ship building to research and development, military personnel to military projects. If Scotland would become independent these jobs would come back South of the border. The next issue is this if we take a military norm of for every soldier in the field you have three support persons then the outcome could be 130,000 direct jobs to plus 390,000 at risk jobs. in shops, pubs, housing white goods etc.
So my question is where are the ‘Non Facts’, employment numbers, ONS and government documents, Barnet formula, no read the reasons for it, Scottish tax returns, I was speaking in the positive in reality Scotland has about 8.5% of the UK population but recieves 9.5% in tax returns (ONS) this investment does not include direct UK government projects such as the SSN base, T25, T31 projects etc which gives a return of 15%+ of UK tax generation on the 8.5% population.
Ask the SNP or Scotland if they want to be treated 100% the same way as England is, an equal investment 1 to 1 same payments, same investment ratio. That would be fair, or not. Go on do it if you dare, I know the answer do you. Have you ever lived and worked in Scotland? I am not ranting but I understand what the SNP is trying to do and they do it easily. Maybe England and Westminster should ask the Scottish people in a referendum if they really want to have the same finaicial package as England or Wales. The same investment package per head of population? What do you think would happen, would they accept?
So no it is or was not a rant, I grew up in Dundee the only area that voted yes to independence, Granda hated the English, I don’t have a high regard for the English but I am fair. What the SNP is doing is almost emotianal blackmail. Even worse, it is almost akin to Hitler/Chamberlin and appeasement. We all know the result of that. Go on say something diffrent, tell me that if Scotland had the same investment per head as England the SNP would not use it against Westminster. It seems to me that England, Wales and NI is buying SNP allegiance.
So now tell me rant where, you see rant I see truth, you see non facts, but I checked my figures and then rechecked.
I was honest when I said I have no idea what the national debt of the UK is now, to be honest I don’t even think the government knows. So all I can say is what was at the end of 2019.
The UK national debt is now 100% of GDP.
Ouch, hope we can get out of that situation.
Ron, I’ve read your narrative – and I appreciate how unhappy the SNP has made you. You state that you wish the SNP, “ to start working together for the interest of the Scottish people and the peoples of the UK”. A laudable aim. But that’s never going to happen! You’re thinking of another political party! Maybe Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour – or Scottish Lib-Dems!
The SNP simply want independence, has contempt for the British state – and fosters a narrative of bogus grievance and gripe to support its objective. Indeed
I rather fear they have worked their destructive brand of magic on you – and transformed you unwittingly into an unpaid recruiting sergeant for separatism!
For instance, the Scots don’t buy UK national debit to gain the right to have another referendum! They simply vote for it in sufficient numbers! And Scotland isn’t some kind of economic basket-case; its a political, economic and cultural asset to the UK. And indeed UK membership brings huge benefits and opportunities to Scots.
I do wish people would stop bringing the Darien scheme of the 1690s into these arguments, let’s just let that one go! The Act of Union happened in 1707 because the elites of both England and Scotland wanted it. But let’s leave it there – and focus on the future.
What’s the best way of keeping the UK together? Do your arguments have any chance of winning the “hearts and minds” of those uncertain Scots – or Welsh, or Irish? Or do they simply drive more into the arms of separatism?
I say – don’t fall into the trap of debating on the divisive ground laid-out for you. Argue instead for a positive, aspirational image of the UK – with everyone pulling together for the common good, and creating greater prosperity and opportunity for all the people on these islands. Who wouldn’t want to be a member of that kind of club!
Alan, I agree with you, the nations are better as one, yes as a family of brorthers there will be disagrements, good god, four brothers in one house mum and dad will need to get involved. However when it comes to the outside world god help anyone that trys to bully one of the brothers.
That is how I see these Islands, four brothers.
As for thinking Scottish Lab, Con, or Lib Dems, sorry I trust the word of a politicain as much as I trust a rattle snake if I got to close. They Bite, and not in a nice way.
However there is a point where you need to stand up and say stop this far and no further. The issue that I have with the SNP is not that of the people of Scotland. What the SNP is managing to do is get the people of the other three nations to say good ridance. You can only threaten so much before the other side be that a person or a nation takes action, That is what I am afraid of, not investment, not the people but the simple fact of enough is enough, this far and no further. The results would be the break up of something that has worked well for several hundred years.
If the SNP thinks Scotland has it so bad then they should really look at Wales, technacilly Wales is not even an independent country but officially a Principality within England, just a bigger form of Earldom or Dukedom. If I look at the history of the word Wales and old Anglo Saxon word meaning stranger or lower class person that developed into meaning ‘only useful to be enslaved’ So the SNP complain, if the complaints came from Wales I could understand. Do the Welsh complain?
Ron, I think we need to keep the SNP in perspective. At the last General Election in Dec 2019, 54% of Scots who took part voted for so-called “unionist parties”, and only 46% for the SNP/Greens. When rigorously tested, opinion in Scotland had barely changed since 2014 – even after Brexit.
Indeed, currently Ms Sturgeon leads a minority administration in Edinburgh. The SNP does have a lot of Westminster MPs at the moment, which means a right to UK TV air-time – and the opportunity to do what they love best – winding-up the English!
But devolution is here to stay, and people are just going to have to get used to some nationalist dissent.
In general, I don’t share your low opinion of our elected representatives. And for all its faults, unlike other recent forms of nationalism in the UK, no one has suffered much more than a nose-bleed from supporters of Scottish independence.
Alan, that is what is called a “Bad Faith” argument. you cannot see your opponent as a fellow citizen with a different opinion, so you demonise and strawman the argument. You want the SNP to start working together for the interest of the Scottish people and the peoples of the UK”, and then spew some nonsense about us. Here’s the tough mental shift. It’s gonna really blow your mind. Both unionists and nationalists want what is best for Scotland and the UK. it’s true. They just believe that different paths give the best results. I, as a nationalist, believe that ultimately, England, Scotland and Wales will all benefit from being Independent nations – that we are all proud nations with deep history that will do a better job of governing ourselves. I can extend good faith to a unionist, and accept that they think that the UK is better. you should try arguing in good faith.
Argyll Atheist
I’ve reread what I’ve written – and I don’t see anything “demonic” in my argument! I think you simply don’t like what I’ve stated!
With respect, your big idea to improve the life of the peoples on these islands is to divide them – while others wish to keep them together in a collective purpose of co-operation and the common weal. And here is something else you may not like: in the main today, there is no linguistic, cultural or ethnic differences between the Scots and the rest of the UK. Your “nations” are simply imagined communities.
You can certainly disagree with me, and argue for independence as an expression your own identity – but most separatist arguments are made today on economic grounds (including on this forum). And on the subject of so-called “bad faith” – if independence is economically such a great idea, then the SNP need to stop making stuff up!
To “demonise” an argument or person does not imply anything “demonic”. That’s just poor English comprehension. And no, the big idea is not to “divide”, it’s local governance. the more local the better; a tried and tested model used by the happiest nations on the planet. many of which are small European nations like Scotland. As to your incorrect opinion about language and culture (I’ll leave “ethnic” for you, as I have no interest in “blood and soil”), no matter how many times unionists stomp and shout that Scots is “not a real language” or that Scottish culture is not real (which would be news to half the world where our diaspora has spread), that doesn’t make it true. That being said, please feel free to continue. you, and those like you are excellent recruitment tools. Every time you screech about how “Scotland doesn’t even exist any more”, we get a bump in membership.
Argyll
I believe in localism, that’s why I support devolution – and trust that the powers at Holyrood will be used constructively, in co-operation with the other people on these islands. But I see very little of that spirit in today’s separatist dominated chamber.
I’m also a proud Scot – but just like to keep these things in proportion! In my travels: as a Glaswegian, I’ve found as much in common with people in Belfast, Cardiff, Newcastle and London – as I do with those in Dundee or Aberdeen.
As for happy wee nations, although I believe Scotland is a viable independent country, I much prefer to pool sovereignty with our friends in the UK – and see lots of economic opportunities and benefits in doing so.
Indeed such are the immediate economic challenges facing an independent Scotland that I see very little scope for happiness during the following 20 years! These are challenges that separatists wilfully misrepresent – but we’re back to “bad faith” again.
Mate, I don’t have any ideological problem with an independent Scotland, my issue is more of practicality. While Scotland could function as an independent nation my fear is that we (the inhabitants) would generally be worse off financially because of it.
Whether Scotland was in the UK and/or the EU it would be giving up ‘sovereignty’ so not independent, we’d just be having a different bunch of politicians telling ‘us’ what to do. The SNP would have Scotland swap Westminster for Brussels, what’s the difference, its not really independence is it.
A cracking article; and gets to the heart of the thing – using the procurement as essentially an election promise made the inevitable dance between the MOD and BAE Systems into an overtly political thing. It’s good to see this conversation now, because it opens the door to a bit of honesty all round. We nationalists have to recognise that the Type 26 dance of 13, no eight, but only 3 for now is entirely normal, and would have happened whether it was an Indyref football or not. We should also be acknowledging that the amount of work which has come with the OPVs, T26 and now T31s at Rosyth is significant. If Unionists can start to acknowledge that this extra work doesn’t mean that it’s okay to argue that black is white, but instead accept that the promise as made was not kept – and the fault is that, ultimately, it should never have been used as a promise in the first place… then we can have more grown up discussions. I have said to UKDJ on Twitter a few times that I don’t expect the 8 remaining Type 26s to be built. I fully expect that a second tranche will be ordered – maybe another 3, but that when it comes time to open the purse, MoD will opt for more cheaper T31s instead. I can see that tranche 2 discussion being turned into another football for Indyref2. Hopefully not.
HI Argyll, Hmmmm —– not really convinced by your comments.
“I can see that tranche 2 discussion being turned into another football for Indyref2. Hopefully not”.
Well, yes …. I imagine separatists wouldn’t want examples of the prosperity and opportunities gained through UK membership discussed during another Scottish independence referendum!
Did you even READ the article Alan? this entire article is highlighting that politicisation of vessel procurement was a mistake that should not have happened… and your answer to the risks of that happening again is that you want it to happen for political posturing… wow. as for not being convinced by my comments – of course not. you are clearly incapable of arguing in good faith.
I did read it Argyll, but I think the author is being a wee bit unrealistic – as indeed, unfortunately, are you.
Of course large UK defence contracts (or “naked bribes” as you memorably described them earlier!) are going to be discussed during referendum or election campaigns in today’s Scotland. Although it is indeed regrettable that the sanctity of such events are sullied by politics!!
But I do look forward to some “grown-up discussions” with independence supporters about the Royal Navy in Scotland, and the future of ship-building in my home city. They are long overdue.
Unfortunately politics has a way of creeping into everything and in the case of the frigates becoming a promise it builds up and you can see how and why. If (in this instance) Westminster said before the indy ref that there were going to be 13 frigates built on the Clyde then its fair enough the SNP/Indy campaign want ‘proof’ rather than empty words so it becomes a ‘promise’. I agree that its unfortunate that we’re at that place but as politicians are all pretty dodgy (sorry, I accept that that makes it all a bit self fulfilling) then things need to be bolted down so they can be taken to task over it.
I’ve banged the drum before but politics should be boring, the administration of a country/region/town should be pretty mundane but its been turned into theatre for us plebs and careers for the more politically active. Party A say X, Party B/C/D say Y and X is the worst thing ever ! None of it helps but its where we are unfortunately.
As ever Andy, an accurate assessment.
Divisive politics, as honed to a dark perfection by chief mentalist and looney tune Trump, are seen everywhere these days.
I find the sort of hate filled decisive politics championed by the SNP and others just depressing to be honest.
Cheers John, its not just the SNP, they’re all pretty bad, Left say Right is bad and vice versa, Andy Burnham playing politics with the government over covid cash is pretty divisive stuff too. Labour abstaining over covid measures etc. The Tories have been just as bad, Christ, BoJo’s power grab from Theresa May is another example.
Nationalists have a slight advantage though as nationalism draws more in than a lot of other politics and its a simple message. While I don’t like it, the SNP have been playing a blinder, Ian Blackford plays his role in Westminster brilliantly, basically just nawsing up the Government and the English in general (and some of us Jocks too in fairness) and because the Scottish Parlie is a backwater for the UK parties the SNP really aren’t taken to task as they should be. Sorry, wandered off topic a bit there. Basically, they’re all a shower of B’stards, whether they see it as self serving or noble or whatever, it all ends up the same.
I’m surprised that the economic consequences of Scottish independence for shipbuilding seem to get so little coverage. I’m assuming that the rUK (horrible term) would discontinue building our complex warships there and that this would entail the end of large scale shipbuilding in Scotland, bringing about the loss of thousands of highly skilled jobs in Govan and in the associated supply chain. Were Faslane, Lossiemouth and other UK facilites likewise to be closed the loss of jobs would be even more significant. I know the consequences for the rUK submarine based nuclear deterrent have been much discussed in this forum. In the long term I think we might see a massive boost to investment at English sites in order to relocate naval shipbuilding. Are these options already being discussed at the highest levels? You would hope contingency plans are in place given the very really possibility of the SNP achieving its aims in the next couple of years.
Wha tis often overlook is that VT’s, a dynamic UK shipbuilder wanted to build commercial tonnage too at their Portsmouth facility. This was thier plan at the start as they had already planned for another hall too. BAE in this respect, killed a ambitous company (they created BVT and that was the start) that wanted to build commercial shipbuilding on the South Coast.
Sorry for the poor grammar and spelling, as usual.
NEVER KNEW THIS WAS A POLITICAL SITE