Turkey had intended to operate F-35Bs from its new assault ship, that can’t happen now.

The TCG Anadolu is based on the Spanish ship Juan Carlos I, a multi-purpose amphibious assault ship. Navantia provided design, technology transfer, equipment and technical assistance to Sedef Shipyard of Turkey for the design and development of the Anadolu.

The headline of this article, by the way, is a tongue in cheek comment aimed at the people who (incorrectly) berate the UK carrier project for resulting in ‘carriers with no planes’.

From the start of the Turkish amphibious assault ship programme, the Turkish Navy had wanted a vessel purely designed to operate helicopters. However, local media reported that soon after exploring options for the design, the Turkish Navy later changed its plans and opted for a fully equipped flight deck with a ski-jump ramp in front, intending to purchase the F-35B STOVL aircraft.

Turkish national newspaper, Hurriyet Daily News, reported at the start of the year that the country was planning to buy a number of F-35B jets in addition to its plus 100 F-35As, the paper stated that this was “planned to be procured in line with Ankara’s growing interest in strengthening its naval forces, mainly for overseas operations”, the vessel they’d fly from is the TCG Anadolu.

The commissioning of the ship is scheduled for 2021 and she is expected to cost around $1 billion.

Jane’s had also confirmed Turkey’s interest in the the F-35B, citing Turkish and Western defense industry sources. According to Jane’s:

“A senior Turkish Defence Industries undersecretariat official expressed his country’s interest in buying F-35 STOVL variants to Vice Admiral Mathias Winter, head of the US Defense Department’s F-35 programme office, during a meeting held in Ankara in mid-October.”

Fast forward to 2019, When Turkey defied US warnings to go through with its purchase of Russian S-400 air defence system, it was warned that this could be a threat to information relating to NATO systems. Turkey ignored those warnings.

Days after the S-400s arrived, Turkey was kicked out of the F-35 programme.

Turkey was a Level 3 partner in the Joint Strike Fighter programme and the Turkish vessel TCG Anadolu was designed to be capable of operating up to 12 F-35Bs and 12 helicopters.

Now, that will not be happening.

While some describe the gradual and incremental build up to a return to British carrier strike as an example of ‘carriers without jets’, this is the real thing. When the TCG Anadolu enters service, there will be no jets in training, in build or even on order.

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Geoffrey Roach
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Geoffrey Roach

Going “cheap”. Nice addition to the R.N.

Herodotus
Guest

That’s what I was thinking. Does she have a floating dock?

Julian
Guest
Julian

Juan Carlos is a nice design. Also the basis for the RAN Canberra class. It has a pretty decent-sized well dock. I normally wish for clever UK design for new vessels but if we ever added this type of vessel to the RN then we could do a whole lot worse than licensing this design or, as mentioned, it would be great (but isn’t going to happen) to buy this at a knockdown price.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Ha! The RN purchase was my first thought too, til more sensible thoughts surfaced, like, where are the people to crew it, and, I think I’d rather spend the money on more T31 and up gunned RB2, or Merlins and Wildcats!

Cam
Guest
Cam

Yeah same here Daniele more 31s, up arming Rb2s, an up armed and fully equipped RB2 would be fine for patrolling the straights and could even turn into a corvette, but it won’t happen unfortunately!!. The RN crewing issue can be sorted out if the money’s spent to do it though.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the batch 2 rivers should be fitted as the thais have done with their batch 2 (htms krabi) purchase, the fitting of a 76mm oto melara main gun has made it look a useful addition and is even listed in their full fleet inventory as a corvette, add a simple towed array and maybe a single torpedo, and a martlet. and you have a sizable ‘punchy’ ship.

Joe16
Guest
Joe16

If the money was available, spending the majority of it on people would be my take; bearing in mind we have two escorts tied up due to lack of crew, that’d give us an 18% uptick in T45 availability without having to cut any steel at all!
I agree with you though, would have been cool to add to an amphibious task force.

Jack
Guest
Jack

The RN has seen an increase in overall numbers of personnel by several hundred over the last two years and HMS Dauntless and HMS Lancaster which have been used as harbour training ships are nearing completion of their refits and will rejoin the front line fleet this year. To be followed by HMS Daring.
Let’s get the two carriers at sea and in service before anything else.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

agreed, as long as ‘hank the yank’ pulls his finger out and gets on faster with our f 35’s.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

i’ve said before the loss of ocean could have been achieved by the removal of a bay class superstructure, a fitting a full deck.if you look at pictures of a bay, its east picture it with a full deck(try it). far cheaper than a new build.and MAINLY ALREADY BUILT.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

type 31’s are not going to happen, its a myth.

Berat
Guest
Berat

Yes, it does

Herodotus
Guest

On the other hand they will probably sell it to the Russians or px it. They didn’t get their Mistral class after all!

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

and we lost ocean.

Mad Murdoch
Guest
Mad Murdoch

LCVP Mk5 (4.3m) will fit an LCM-1E berth (6.4m) with room to spare. Whether it will run out of fuel or travel twice the distance due to Rees-Mogg’s conversion back to Imperial, is another question…

Cam
Guest
Cam

Now that’s a real carrier without jets ( I’m sure there’s a few old harriers knocking around). Slightly Off topic but that ski ramp got me thinking if the American marines new America assault ships flying the F35Bs will ever get ramps, considering it increases takeoff weight by 20% that’s massive. And what if they need a fully armed and fuelled jet would they just fully arm the jets and lightly fuel them then refuel in air using America’s vast refuelling assets…..so many questions!!. Could the F35b be used as a refuelling aircraft for other jets?

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

It’s hard to understand Turkish motivation for the S400 procurement, is it worth being kicked out of the F35 program for??

Senior officers in the Turkish Airforce must be tearing their hair out…

I can unfortunately see Turkey going somewhat rouge and realigning themselves with the Russians…

That would make the Greek Islands the new inter German Boarder of the new Cold War..

They are looking to be kicked out of NATO if they take anymore wrong turns.

Turk here
Guest
Turk here

Every country near Turkey has ballistic missiles and nato covers just a small portion of Turkish airspace. During the coup hostile jets and helicopters had free reign over Turkish airspace. The west refused to sell air defenses to Turkey for decades and when they finnaly did, it was a bad deal for Turkey. 1) too expensive 2) no tech transfer 3) cant place them near cyprus or greek and armenian borders. 4) Patriot cant target jets, has a short range If they dont give the f-35, Turkey will again buy from somewhere else and the west would have made their… Read more »

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

Why kick Turkey out of NATO?

Only Turkey will do that if they continue to foster a close relationship with a politically and economically bankrupt Country like the Russian Federation.

As for the F35, all participants in the program had to sign up to a comprehensive agreement involving protection of sensitive technology.

Turkey has decided to infringe this and as a result has thrown itself out of the F35 program for reasons known only to themselves…

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

I would add to this, Turkey is a key NATO member and until very recently had increasingly close ties with the UK in helping to develop their next Combat Aircraft, among other high tech sensitive systems…

Turkish increasingly close ties with the Russian Federation (A country, let’s not forget, who carried out a chemical weapons attack on British soil) has placed all that cooperation in jeopardy.

I can’t think of a good reason for the Turkish direction of travel, it’s not good for Turkey, NATO or the West in general moving forward…

A sad state of affairs for all..

Rob N
Guest
Rob N

I have a little sympathy for them, why should they not buy the SAM system they want. By all accounts it is very good. If Turkey is not a trusted NATO member what was the US thinking when it wanted to sell them F35. Or is it all about making a point with Russia… it so the US have now pushed Turkey even further into the Russian sphere of influence. It looks like an own goal to me. They will probably not sell the ship but use it with helicopters as originally intended.

Sean
Guest
Sean

They were told why not, because the US didn’t want its latest stealth fighter being constantly scanned by an air defence system system built by its long-standing enemy. The opportunity for Russia to identity a signature for the F35B was too great. Unfortunately in the time since Turkey first joined the programme, it’s moved from a young parliamentary democracy to one now run by a dictatorial president who is unlikely to ever relinquish power voluntarily. It’s not surprising that Turkey is moving towards Russia, Erdogan is following the Putin playbook for holding onto power. No own goal by the US,… Read more »

whlgrubber
Guest
whlgrubber

The F35 has been scanned by S-400 Radar from Syria. (US via Iraq and Uk via Cyprus) At the same time its good to know the search,scan and lock characteristics of the S-400. I doubt if turkey will be getting the full characteristics of the S-400 anyhow.

Watcherzero
Guest
Watcherzero

The difference is between scanning and picking stuff up and scanning knowing what to expect so the flightpath of the aircraft can be compared to the sensor response.

Daveyb
Guest
Daveyb

The aircraft that have been operating over/near Syria (Israeli, US and UK) are fitted with the Luneberg lens radar reflectors. These small devices negate the minimal radar RCS of the aircraft making them much easier to track. So the true “stealthiness” of the aircraft is yet to tested by the S400.

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

Sadly, at the moment the most unreliable NATO/trade partner is America. It is just breaking/pulling out of agreements and treaties left right and centre while trying to bully everyone in sight with it’s ‘America First’ (noone else matters?) policy.

Berat
Guest
Berat

İmagine that your house have no a roof and you are under dangeour. And you are asking to your neighboor for roofing sheet but they say no, or they stall of to give it even they though thay nave it an they call you as a neighbour. What if get rain or happens something like that? You would request from other frierdly neighboor, right? Situation is so basic. Turkeys western underdangeour and a few times some rockets hit the some places. But Turkey’s allied is America has never given it. But when Russia got the request, has not changed into… Read more »

Roy
Guest
Roy

Politics always the devil

Statement
Guest
Statement

Turkey never intended to buy the S400s. The went to the US twice to purchase Raytheon Patriot missile systems. The United States rejected turkey twice, the second time around Congress cold turkey a security threat. So the United States push turkey away thinking it had no options and no missile defense. So turkey went elsewhere bought the Russian s-400 for much-needed air defense systems. It is yet to actually be determined if Turkey will be removed from the f-35 program. This will be another example of America not intending to be an ally of Turkey. The f-35 was recently declared… Read more »

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

I look on more as a mix of ‘America wouldn’t sell us what we wanted plus this seems to be better kit anyway’ and ‘we aren’t going to be pushed around by America’.

Andrew
Guest
Andrew

Seems like common sense to put ski jumps on the marine assault ships…therefore it’ll never happen… there will probably be politics involved…

Cam
Guest
Cam

Yeah no doubt m8, not sure how it would affect all the different planes carried taking of from a ramp though maybe they can’t….

GWM
Guest
GWM

They have all ready said they won’t do it as it takes up to much deck space in their opinion.

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

That’s sounding like a somewhat contrived excuse in my opinion for not wanting to be seen adopting someone else’s idea, the not designed here mantra. So reminiscent of previous attitudes going way back to the 2nd WW. Maybe I’m being too much of a cynic.

GWM
Guest
GWM

Well their carriers have basically UK inovations at their core so not sure that’s true.The Spanish ship was designed to be a replacement for their carrier as well as an Amphib,the U.S. ships are primarily amphibs and if you look how they pack aircraft on their decks you can see their logic.

pkcasimir
Guest
pkcasimir

The US Marines long term plan is to use the MQ-25 refueling drone to refuel the F-35Bs right after takeoff thus increasing range and payload.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

I thought they were using the MV-22 Osprey for refueling?

TwinTiger
Guest
TwinTiger

If they can modify the rear landing zone for STOBAR, they can purchase a dozen or so Dassault Rafale jets instead.

Chris Hoare
Guest
Chris Hoare

The Rafale requires catapult assistance for take off if I’m not mistaken

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

India can tell them how expensive that can be. And just what future is there for other NATO countries in selling to Turkey right now. Do you think the French are keen to have the Russians learn all about the Rafale?

The Russians have just put their main opposition leader back in jail after he first came down with a “mysterious” illness. Would anyone trust the Russians with anything so much as an umbrella (or a flask of perfume) ??

TwinTiger
Guest
TwinTiger

That situation for the Rafale is already in play, as Russia has confirmed that India is buying the S-400.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/russia-confirms-delivery-of-s-400-air-defense-systems-to-india-will-begin-in-2020/

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

Paid $5.5 billion. I must say that seems a lot. The Indians paid over the odds for Rafale and caused a scandal, and they only have 36. So one wonders if the “Export” version of S400 is a good deal. The Pakistanis will not be happy, and it will limit India’s trade with the USA as well.

It makes it unlikely that we would let India get involved withTempest project.

Ian
Guest
Ian

The Blueprints/Reverse Technology for every piece of Western Developed Technology have, throughout history, been obtained by ‘Iffy’ nations.
What’s stopping Turkey from getting a set of F35B Blueprints? Let’s face it, the EU will still ‘likely’ accept Turkey into its fold, especially now that Britain is leaving.

They could call it The F35B Simsek III.

GWM
Guest
GWM

Their still a pisspoor country whatever their pretentious so maybe they can buy some knackered Italian or Spanish Harriers,we were virtually the only country that wanted them in the EU so never going to happen,more likely we are so desperate for deals we will give them visas to come hear.

David Flandry
Guest
David Flandry

Its a pisspoor country with a GNP of 2.2 trillion dollars.

T

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

Turkey is not indeed “piss poor”. But it is 68th in rank per GDP per person. In poverty it is 22% of population or 41% at risk. Inflation is 17%. It’s in the middle of a debt and currency crisis. Losing the F35 contract and falling out with the USA will not help this. It has indeed been spending a lot on defence in the last couple of years, a lot via indigenous means. However, one wonders when it’s economy will finally implode??

Mark
Guest
Mark

The chances of Turkey ever joining the EU are beyond slim and getting slimmer given that the UK was a major pusher of them joining (remember Johnson as soon as he was FS supporting them joining). I have no idea where the UK gets the idea that it’s something imminent.

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

Geez is that so, even for him that late in the day when they were well into their Neo fascist era that was beyond any rational comprehension. Mind you knowing the way he works it might have been something of a two timing seeking a friendly relationship while knowing entry was not going to happen, rather than pure idiocy. After all he loves to get one over his rivals and enemies and no one thinks he is cleverer than Boris himself at doing it. Infact often he is the only one as we have seen in the recent campaign and… Read more »

Alan Garner
Guest
Alan Garner

The UK never had the idea that Turkey joining was imminent, that was Nick Clegg’s counter smear to Farage’s assertion that it was an “ambition” to bring Turkey into the EU. Farage was right, if a little disingenuous. Clegg knew it was unpopular so invented the idea that Farage claimed it was happening in the next few years to make him look racist to the LibDem remain base. Basically all campaign rhetoric which nobody serious took too literally. In the intervening years the EU has cooled on the idea of letting them in, because of Erdogan, so to the mouth… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I’m sorry but I’ve reviewed the transcripts of farages interviews after his key note speech on the 29th April 2016 and for about a week he totally went on one about the dangers of Turkey and how we were heading in a short space of time towards a Turkish dominated EU.

Fagage basicly lost it with the official vote leave campaign at this time because they would not use the Turkish immigration ticket and focused on the sovereignty and control of laws issues not the dangers of immigration, which fagage wanted them to do.

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

? Was this the same Johnson who was the FS and was in the middle of leaving the EU?

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

IT was France and Gemany who delayed Britain’s decades long attempt to get Turkey into the EU, Blair, Cameron were both strong supporters, seeing £ signs galore and an apparent ally by being their best buddy. Mind you they did pretty much the same with Eastern Europe applicants and that didn’t exactly get us the new friends we expected to help gang up against the duopoly of power in Europe. I remember the mantra Tories and Liberal Lefties alike about how if we didn’t support Turkey’s application they might become extremist and be a danger on our doorstep. Some might… Read more »

Frank62
Guest
Frank62

An ally that funded ISIS. Doubt the EU were on board with that. Erdogan has been burning both NATO & EU bridges.

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

Yes. Turkey pre Erdogan is one thing, post him is a different thing. It would make more sense for Egypt to join the EU!!!

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

That’s OK – the US allowed it’s citizens to fund the IRA.

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

You think the EU will accept Turkey? What are you smoking? Good luck to them with that.

Rise
Guest
Rise

Welcome to the club.

Steve
Guest
Steve

Has the US actually kicked them out yet, last I read they were just threatening.

If the US kicks them out they may be issues as it would have world court implications, after all its a commercial deal not a governmental one.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

There was a UKDJ article on it Steve!

Elliott
Guest
Elliott

Major US defense sales require authorization by either the Executive and Legislative branch. The Senate was already moving against Turkish participation in the program. All that was left was for the President to direct the State and Defense departments to revoke the export authorization.
As world court implications? The US tends to have the opinion “f-off, we don’t care.”

Steve
Guest
Steve

Yes they tend to but the US is isolating lots of countries and it’s only a matter of time before they bunch together and economically force the US to care.

Elliott
Guest
Elliott

Good luck with that. Name and count what countries the US has isolated. Then ask which ones would hurt worse by taking economic action against America, rather than by just accepting that America won’t change. And would in all likelihood retaliate against any economic measures against it with harsher ones.

A note on US arms controls – ITAR has been in place for decades and it is just one of a dozen laws designed to prevent hardware from being sold without oversight.

Steve
Guest
Steve

The problem is the countries their are isolating are aligning around China. We are creating a second Warsaw pact. China still needs trade with the US but those days are ending and the more countries willing to ignore the US are just accelerating that.

Turkey is a big country, doing this over a decision to buy russian rather than US will make other countries question investments in US gear. Ok short term the US has the technical edge that makes people want to buy their gear but that is also ending as China etc catch up

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

Well, if the EU decides that the US is not worth the effort and starts mending bridges with China and Russia? Or decides the US sanctions against Iran are against the interests of Europe – Europe First? The US can hurt individual countries but it has alienated a lot of countries.

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

Even if we paid the full price, It’s built and can serve many roles including delivering foreign aid. Perhaps additional transports helicopters could be ordered for it and all paid out of the FAB!

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

Would be useful but really more destroyers and frigates are not just useful – frankly, they are essential.

Mike O
Guest
Mike O

Can anyone elaborate on why Turkey wants a amphibious capability? On the surface they do not seem to need it as land based aircraft can handle their sphere of influence and that money could be better spent elsewhere. Any extra info/links would be appreciated.

Patrick
Guest
Patrick

Aspirations to be more of a global player.

Nick C
Guest
Nick C

Think about Cyprus. They had a go in the 1970’s and the island is still divided today. With the current regime and its sabre rattling anything could happen. It might also be a lever to dig at the Greeks, there are a lot of Greek islands very close, sometimes only a mile or two, off the Turkish coast, and I am pretty sure that the Turks don’t like their natural enemy squatting in what they consider to be their back yard.
If it came to a shoving match I would be betting on the Turks.

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

Tbe Cyprus issue and the divide with Greece are 2 issues that make then joining the EU problematical!!

Nick C
Guest
Nick C

I’ve never been a fan of the idea of Turkey as a European nation, it’s as odd as having Israel and Australia in the Eurovision Song Contest! And we had Boris telling us that 70 million Turks would be flooding in as soon as they joined! Promising young chap, I wonder what happened to him?

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

That’s something that tends to be neglected – countries have their own priorities, Turkey historicvally has two – Russia and Greece. Failing to get in the EU pushes Greece further forward.

Cam
Guest
Cam

Turkeys like India in the way they want these carriers ect as status symbols, they want to look good and pretend to be big boys on the world stage, it doesn’t matter if they don’t use them they look great so they think because they have them…

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

The issues between India and Pakistan are nothing to do with “status”.

Cam
Guest
Cam

I’m not on about Pakistan and India. And India does buy things for “status”

Trevor
Guest
Trevor

India buys and builds military equipment because it’s enemies are Pakistan and China. It does not buy military equipment for status. It might well buy equipment because of incompetence and corruption. But that is a different matter.

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

India doesn’t have a coherent strategy. It needs one.

Reality
Guest
Reality

You don’t know what your talking about pal

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

Greece/Cyprus might be asking the same question.

Mike O
Guest
Mike O

To correct myself I should of asked, why does Turkey need an amphibious “assault ship” rather than “capability”. Does Grease/Cyprus really feel like Turkey will genuinely assault there territory without an international response? Surely Turkey’s various landing ships could handle that task with support from land based aircraft with no need for an assault ship. Apart from prestige I am struggling to see a sensible reason for this vessel. Especially now.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

They are aligning with Russia and Russias methods are generally to invade just enough to make it worthwhile but not so much that it is worth others to start a war with you. If Turkey invaded the Island of Simi for instance then it might provoke a token Greek response but they are not likely to get military support for a war on Turkey from the international community. Russia knew this when they invaded Crimea. They calculated that the world would not risk a war over such territory and they were right. Russia are also gradually moving the border in… Read more »

Nicolas
Guest
Nicolas

Lee, your argument about the Russian ‘invasion’ of the Crimea may have some validity but the parallel with a ‘small’ island in the Aegean is really not apt. Greece almost pushed the button over the uninhabited ilets of Imia in ’96 with the US preventing it on penalty of retaliation. An invasion of Symi or Kastellorizo (way out east) would cause a Greek response or the overthrow of the administration. Also, the Crimea has a different historical background. It was never Ukrainian but Russian and was offered as a gift to the U by Krutchev after Stalin’s death as compensation… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

Most of the Greek islands were part of the Ottoman Empire and so annexing them would surely be Historically acceptable? Crimea was also part of the Ottoman Empire… If we are going to look at previous territories and label them as Historically acceptable then Perhaps no one would mind If England took back the western half of France? Yes Greece would not be happy with an incursion to its islands. However I am not sure what they would be able to do about it. Turkey have a much more powerful military and are now backed by Russia. The rest of… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

No point talking about who controlled what territory because that much has changed and swapped hands over the centuries.

The biggest thing to look at is nationality and ethnicity, Crimea is 70% Russian, which gives them a say over what happens there, just like we have a say in the Falklands, Gibralter, NI etc.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

So does that mean we can take back Australia Canada and USA?

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

No because the majority of people in those countries don’t call themselves British, they are Australian, Canadian and American, where as if you asked the majority of people in Crimea they would not say Crimean they would say Russian, they see themselves as Russian, because they are Russian, it’s a massive point that seems to be lost in our mainstream media. If you want to use any example using ourselves the closest thing would be Northern Ireland, that whole island voted consistently for the Nationalist Irish party in multiple general elections and wanted their own country, the British nationals in… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I am not sure the Tatars were exactly welcoming and they are the real indigenous people… Also the elections were pretty dubious. Shots were not fired as Russia had also invaded western Ukraine so Ukraine were more worried about that than Crimea. They were also never going to be able to stop Russia without international help and that help was not going to arrive… No one was willing to go to war with Russia over the reasonably small and far away invasion just as no one is willing to do anything about their untoward behaviour in Georgia. Russia are being… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

Probably not but being indigenous gives you nothing unless you are the majority, just ask the Irish in NI and Scottish highlanders. I don’t think the referendum was dubious at all, why should anyone be shocked that a result went the same way as polling in Crimea for years and years. 2008: polling by the Razumkov Centre (Ukraine) found that 63.8% of Crimeans would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia and 53.8% would like to preserve its current status, but with expanded powers and rights. The UN Development Programme conducted a series of polls in Crimea between… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

So 64% wanted to cede to Russia and 54% wanted to stay with Ukraine but with more autonomy… That is more the 100% With the crimea anexation vote only 4 % did not want to cede to Russia… Despite 10% of the population being Tatars who have a deep hatred for Russia? That does not sound odd? 20% of the population are Ukrainian yet almost all of them voted to become Russian? Non of that sounds odd? Oh and the International observers were not allowed to assess the election… There was widespread accusations of voting irregularities… You however think that… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

It’s taken from Wikipedia on the polling section of the Crimean status referendum, it does not say one specific poll it just says “polling” therefore the results are most likely separate polls. Why would they vote to stay part of near failed state that is bankrupt and in the middle of a violent civil war, it’s not odd in the slightest, Yuri Meshkov was a pro Russian separatist that was voted in with 75% to lead Crimea in the 90’s, they have always had a Russian majority, and nearly every single poll undertaken by an outside agency has found the… Read more »

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

I tend to agree the Crimea was an incident waiting to happen. Should belong to Ukraine or Russia? wouldn’t want to give an answer on that… but equally taking it is wrong!

Rob Young
Guest
Rob Young

More to the point, does Turkey feel Greece might assault ‘THEIR’ territory (as in Cyprus) and needs it for self defence? Not all purchases are designed to attack other people.

Mike O
Guest
Mike O

Thanks for the responses. Think I should read up on the Grease Turkey relationship. It was something I assumed had settled down with Turkey’s attention focused on the issues to their south and east.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

They are currently protesting about the UN peacekeepers etc in Cyprus. It certainly seems like they could make moves on Cyprus if we are not careful. Erdogan is getting cornered politically and is losing support within Turkey. I would not put anything past him to divert attention to a common enemy in order to build his support back up.

Herodotus
Guest

Grease? Is John Travolta back?

Mike O
Guest
Mike O

He never went away! ?https://youtu.be/7oKPYe53h78

Chris
Guest
Chris

Considering the Italians are upgrading their carriers air wing from av8’s to f35b’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if turkey doesn’t try to purchase them

Peter Elliott
Guest
Peter Elliott

The Royal Navy will never risk buying a flat top Amphib big enough to operate even token numbers of F35B. For why? Because if they did the Treasury would instantly come knocking to sell the QEC carriers to Brazil or Australia.

A bit like the USN will never etc the Marines have ski jumps, because then why do you need so many ‘propper’ carriers.

When it does come time to replace the Albions, expect a slightly bigger ship with a spacious helicopter hangar, but also a big transverse superstructure making any king of Fast Jet ops absolutely impossible 😉

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Yep, pretty much on the money there I would say.

Daveyb
Guest
Daveyb

I’d be very surprised if the ramp is not looked at in the near future for the America class? The reasons are the issues with the Ford class. At the moment they cannot launch or recover F35As, which is why the Nimitz class are the first to operate them. USS Wasp is part way through a trial of being used as a light carrier. She’s had her compliment of F35s increased to 12, with the possibility of an additional 3. This is a move by the US Navy to increase its AirPower footprint using existing ships, whilst waiting on the… Read more »

Rokuth
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Rokuth

“At the moment they cannot launch or recover F35As…”

You are correct as the F-35As are land based versions. The USMC is operating F-35Bs, like the UK is. FYI, the F-35Bs are already operational, and have been deployed onboard USMC carriers.

DaveyB
Guest
DaveyB

Doh, I meant F35Cs….Knew all about the USMC F35Bs being operational. It is one of the reasons the US Navy are pushing the Lightning Carrier concept so quickly.

Pacman27
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Pacman27

I agree and rightly so. My view on our amphib capability is that it should be merged with our Solid stores capability. A Karel Doorman type design would be perfect, and we could order 8. The benefit of this is that not only do we drive down the price through a single design and scale, but we also get ships that should never need tying up as they are so flexible. Take a look at the specs. It is a bit of a compromise, but not much in my opinion, lane meters can be used for storage and it has… Read more »

Stuza
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Stuza

Except the US Marines are ALREADY experimenting with F35 “Lightning” carriers. USS Wasp has tried, as i have read, 10 F35’s and 4 Ospreys. In fact, IIRC the USS Wasp was the first to use the F35 for a combat mission somewhere over Africa.

Geoffrey Hicking
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Geoffrey Hicking

I really hope that we do the opposite and get some light carriers to go with the QECs. Mass married to flexibility. Slap some USMC planes on them and bob’s your uncle!

Rob Young
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Rob Young

Can’t afford both, especially as we are already so short of needed escorts. But would be nice.

Charlie
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Charlie

Was pretty shocked looking up the aviation and well dock capacity for this ship considering how cheap it is and how small the tonnage and crew requirement is. In some parallel universe where the RN ran into some money these could, along side some T31e’s optimised for NGFS, form a lethal and very good value for money amphibious capability. Shame really.

Cam
Guest
Cam

Turkey has an Air Force with 60,000 personnel and 600+ planes, the RAF has only 33,000+ personnel but 800+ planes! Does the RAF really have that many planes.

Rob
Guest
Rob

311 trainers of various sorts, but even with that we don’t have 800. That figure would presumably include the FAA and AAC, probably the memorial flight too.

Gunbuster
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Gunbuster

So the RAF is including a Spitfire, Hurricane and a Lancaster in its inventory…( Shakes head ) But then again I bet the FAA has a Swordfish and a Vixen on their books…(shakes head even more)

What am I saying …Victory is still counted as part of the RN…(but at least it has a good mess and you can hire it for dinning out functions…)

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

800 plus planes?

Whoever counted that included the numerous gliders, Grob trainers, Tucanos, and still numerous Hawk T1s to get to that number.

Not a realistic number at all sadly.

Lusty
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Lusty

I think 800 is used on wiki. However, wiki takes this data from a page which calculates the figure based on almost ALL air assets, including AAC, RAF and FAA. Using contemporary figures, 660 is probably a more accurate figure for the RAF. However, this figure does not account for the changes that will come with the UK Military Flying Training System. There’s also ~105 aircraft in service with the FAA, and 178 in the AAC. Cam, if you’re interested in the number of airframes in service, I’d encourage you to read the UK armed forces equipment and formations 2018… Read more »

David Flandry
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David Flandry

A very high percentage of the RAFs planes are gliders, close to half I think.

Rob Young
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Rob Young

Yes, but look at the numbers of ‘ships’ Iran and NK have…

OOA
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OOA

It does make you wonder what on earth the main attraction of the S400 was. Assuming they are as self-interested and clever as any of us, they would have seen this coming so why do it? Am perplexed.

Ulya
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Ulya

Lack of trust in the Americans and not being able to buy patriot with the desired technology transfer, in saying that, many from my side question the wisdom of selling S400 to Turkey even if it is only the export version

Rob
Guest
Rob

Turkey seem to be playing both sides. No one knows whether they will continue to be in NATO or ally more closely with other countries such as Russia. In the meantime I would have thought that anyone selling arms to them should be wary about their technology falling into the hands of third parties. It is a shame really, Turkey are ideally located geographically and culturally to be the peace broker in the region and between Russia and the west. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it is nice thought!

Trevor
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Trevor

Export version? Hmmm… It is probably a S300 with “400” stencilled on the side. The Russians were just thinking we would be daft enough to let us use F35s alongside S400 and let them learn all about the F35. !!!

Ulya
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Ulya

Trevor, most weapons have export version, been that way from USSR days. Syria has been useful area for collection of data on F35 and F22. Turkey I think was just an opportunity that presented itself and to interesting to say no

Rob Young
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Rob Young

Russian export versions are traditionally lower-spec than the home use equipment. The spec differences are sometimes ridiculous.

Lee1
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Lee1

I imagine the Russians have almost given them the S400 for free.

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Hmmm. Has 5 25mm, 2 Phalanx, 1 Sea RAM according to Wiki.

Frank62
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Frank62

The MOD really does like to under-arm our ships-especially carriers.

lee
Guest

Are they interested in some nice second hand harriers

Facts
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Facts

SOME FACTS:
(1) The TCG Anadolu is built in Turkey based on design support from Spain.
(2) TCG Anadolu will now be used as a Helicopter Carrier. Turkey produces the T-129, T-130 and many other Helicopters
(3) Turkey has a new Aircraft Carrier program which will field a naval variant of the TF-X.
(4) Turkey is also discussing with Russia the possible co-development of a VTOL Aircraft.

Mesut
Guest
Mesut

Turkey do not need a jet carrier! TCG it multi purpose!anyways they were not intended to buy type of f35 anyway! You need to double check your information about the TCG anadolu!

Helions
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Helions

It’s interesting that, as global navies show more interest in building and fielding multi purpose amphibious warfare / light carrier vessels, the world’s largest operator of the type seems to be stepping back from them (which is no small matter). Acknowledgment that technology may render them sitting ducks in a high end conflict? It has always been my opinion that large surface capital ships will be rare ducks within 30 years unless self defense technologies are advanced enough to overcome the current and advancing area denial systems.

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/sacred-cows-die-as-marine-commandant-changes-course-on-amphibs/?_ga=2.23223484.763937730.1564398305-249211029.1564398305

Cheers!

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Don’t let the new Defence Sec see this!

The LPDs and Bays are all the RM have, and are likely to have, for some time.

dave12
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dave12

Does not matter anyway Erdogan is losing support in Turkey , Istanbul for one example and its economy is in a bad state ,wants hes gone all will be back to the norm in terms of NATO.

Ron
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Ron

Would I like to see the RN with such a vessel, yes perferably three, one to replace Ocean and the other two to replace Albion and Bulwark. They could be used for other things as well such as an escort carrier or anti submarine carrier, even heavy capability humanitarian. Will it happen I don’t think so also would they be good for the Royal Marines not really they would be more useful to land three battlegroups of a 1,000 men each complete with the armour and their transportation of the army in a Falkland style situation. Such a force would… Read more »

Gandalfo Americano
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Gandalfo Americano

Whoever did the sales contract with Turkey should be investigated. This never should have been a surprise to anyone. Maybe they intentionally left out the stipulations about Russia, knowing full well of their practical existance, so that Turkey would feel fine buying f35, and then USA pulls back, making USA seem unreliable, as China wants us to appear.

dave12
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dave12

I agree .

Rob N
Guest
Rob N

If the US do not trust Turkey they should never have agreed to sell them sensitive kit. It is not Turkey’s fault when they wish to buy a very good SAN system that just happens to be non-US. After all they are a sovereign state. The whole US position smacks of failled coercion. Now Turkey is likely to do more trade with Russia then less. They may push Turkey out of NATO jib done for Russia…!

Gandalfo Americano
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Gandalfo Americano

Then again, maybe it was our plan, all along, to get our Anglo brothers a good deal on a carrier.

“Sorry, Turks. You can’t give Russia our radar signature and hook them into our network. Was that not in the contract? Oh, it wasn’t?”

Rob N
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Rob N

Nice but I do not think the Turks will sell the ship, they will just use it as originaly intended with helicopters and no jets.

Statement
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Statement

Turkey is currently working with uk-based BAE systems on the tf-x stealth fighter as a joint project with t a i Turkish aerospace industries.

Nigel Collins
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Nigel Collins

Interesting to note the timeframes for adding weapons to the F35B and the choices currently available!
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/munitions-handling-on-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers/

STEPHEN
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STEPHEN

she could replace HMS ocean

Gunbuster
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Gunbuster

Turkey purchase a Russian /Soviet missile system in the late 90s for the same reason as …the US would not sell a system that could be put on Cyprus.
I was on a Outboard equipped T22 B2 sailing around SIGINT ing cyprus for 3 months because of that.

andy reeves
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andy reeves
Robert Burns
Guest
Robert Burns

The SU35 is ideally suited for a ski jump launcher and has already been offered by Russia. The flying brick or F35 is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated by the USA on its vassal allies. The two carriers in final use by the UK will be missing F35s for some time and will rue the day the Harriers were decommissioned. Maybe the UK Carriers can deal with Russia for some old YAK VTOL fighters.