The news of the steel cutting for the first Type 26 Frigate, HMS Glasgow, was met with remarks by an SNP MP implying only three of the class are to be built.

Douglas Chapman, SNP Spokesperson for Defence Procurement, said today:

“While we welcome today’s long awaited start to cut steel for three frigates, three is clearly not the thirteen promised to the workforce on the Clyde.

Following repeated questioning yesterday the UK government could not confirm the date for the publication of their much vaunted National Shipbuilding Strategy due last year, which would help bring security and clarity to the future of naval Shipbuilding both on the Clyde and at Rosyth.

A key component of a steady stream of work for Scottish Shipbuilding is the new T31e smaller frigate and again yesterday the UK Minister could only say it was still ‘at the design stage’ – where it has been for the best part of two years. It is welcome that the workforce on the Clyde will push ahead of the Type 26 frigate programme. It is absolutely essential that the Clyde retains the skills and experience it has as a world centre of shipbuilding expertise.”

While we do agree that the Government are on the date for the publication of their National Shipbuilding Strategy, our issue here is the implication that only three frigates are to be built.

‘Three is not thirteen’, a contact in the University of Glasgow maths department assures us this is true.

Warships of this size and complexity are ordered in batches. The Type 45 Destroyer was ordered in batches, why should the Type 26 Frigate be any different?

As we predicted before the announcement that the first batch of Type 26 Frigates were ordered, some groups have taken the batch build process to indicate a cut and it’s becoming comical.

Ordering in batches is common for projects of this size around the world and was last seen with the Royal Navy for the Type 45 Destroyers and recent Offshore Patrol Vessels. The Type 45s first batch order was for three vessels just like Type 26.

Additionally, it was recently announced recently that work had started on the fifth of five new Offshore Patrol Vessels being built on the Clyde.

This begs the question, why would a defence spokesperson who has been party to Defence Select Committee meetings discussing this very topic imply that only three will be built? We’ll leave that up to you.

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chris

Someone should tell the SNP to be grateful for what they are being given. Portsmouth was sacrificed on the altar of devolution and if the SNP get a bit too big for their boots (they aren’t even a majority government in their own backyard of 5 million people) then tell them ‘You are getting three. The rest are being built in rUK’ Let them then explain to those out of work how they pissed off the people funding their £15 Bn deficit and all the jobs on the Clyde and Rosyth for the last God knows how long. We owe… Read more »

Answer is simple …….Independence for Scotland

yaldy

you should watch your fucking lip

Portsmouth was sacrificed on the alter of absolutely clueless austerity and defence and strategic negligence, substantially by an English elected government

The clyde is literally one of the most historic ship building centres on all of planet earth. Not saying portsmouth doesn’t have a similarly prestigious history – just that you should show similar awareness

Building and maintaining a multi ethnic (or multinational) union (like the UK) isn’t an easy task. Maybe you should see the bigger picture and start acting like this union is something worth preserving (rather than acting like the SNP)

chris

Yaldy Soft Lad it isn’t my lip needs watching its your abuse.
No place for it in an adult discussion board.
I won’t be drawn into your stupidity so I am out …

We like to try to maintain adult conversation in these postings if thats what you consider your opening remarks to be Yaldy then I feel you should not post again.

dadsarmy

Any danger yaldy you could put your posts in a civilised fashion? Yes, Chris thinks it’s cool to talk about “Jocks”, but then his ignorance is no excuse for your language.

Gillian

Not all Scots are interested in the SNP and their griping!!! Maybe that’s why they lost 21 seats in the last election. Thankfully!!!

Mr Bell

SNP are nutters. They should consider the fact that nearly all military ship building in the UK is now done on the Clyde, at the expense of everyone else.
If Scotland ever voted for independence that would end immediately.
Trying to score cheap shots without engaging their nationalistic brains. It is a terrible shame that the type 26 numbers have been reduced to 8. You never know though, it could always go back upto 13 if the country ever wakes up to the perilous state of the Royal Navy.

HF

Sign of the times – the ignorance about the forces in this country is quite astonishing considering that this is a martial country.

‘ if the country ever wakes up to the perilous state of the Royal Navy’ – and of the army and RAF.

Murray

Quite right. At any given time at least half or more of the capability is in for service or unavailable due to lack of spare parts or similar. The force capability is not what it seems at all.

Bloke down the pub

Considering that a significant part of the man-hours involved in building a warship are in the design stage, perhaps the c**** tosser from the SNP should appreciate the order being split between two designs will actually increase the work the orders create.

dadsarmy

Perhaps the c**** tosser from the SNP has read that the T31 is out for tender, and realises that even the design work might not be done in Scotland, let alone the build.

maurice10

In truth, steady as you go might be the way forward. Two huge political issues face the UK, one is the Brexit exit costs, and the SNP determination to split the Union in either the short or long term. By drip feeding the ships, it may enable the UK Government to weigh up the ongoing situation, as it develops.

I’m sure the RN will get all eight 26’s and some cheaper variant, but the financial future for the UK is not clear and caution would be my option too.

Mike

Maurice 10. I’m peeved at you advising caution. As an SNP voter I was rather enjoying watching the haters drive Scots who are floating voters into our welcoming arms with their ridiculous ‘facts’ no doubt gleaned from your rite wing anti Scottish press . The same media that drove us out of Europe with lies, half truths, fear and disinformation and is now trying to replace their standard model scape goat of Johny foreigner with a new one . The new ‘ enemy within .’ The horrifyingly selfish, charity case, leaches ; the Scots ! Hopefully they will ignore your… Read more »

chris

Mike – So is that the same reasoning that people applied when the SNP lost vast numbers of voters and many seats along with your ‘IndyRef’ heroes like Salmond and Robertson in the General Election? Or when they lost their majority in the Scottish Parliament in 2016? Or when they lost their only Council and many councillors before the GE? The Scottish Nasty Party are now a busted flush, they have had their day and will become a footnote in the annals of Scottish history. Scottish voters gave you lot a try and saw education, police and other devolved matters… Read more »

dadsarmy

Instead of recession, Scotland’s economy grew 4 times as much as the UK as a whole in the last reported quarter.

For the rest of the posting, LOL.

David Johnson

Wrong. Compared to the rest of the UK, the Scottish economy is lagging. You cannot cherry pick one-quarter’s figures. Well you can if you are an idiot which I suspect is the case here.

If they got independence it woukd be zero. Seriously the SNP have no creditable policies and are fading away. Its obvious that they have nithing positive to say about the multi million pound investment and as always in their victim state sychi, are not in tbe real World.

TH

I for one hope that only three are built. An utter waste of hard earned public money which could be better spent elsewhere. Half the defence budget and buy decent patrol boats and face the fact that the country cannot fritter billions on vanity defence projects. The Type 45 destroyer has proven a complete economic disaster. Now more such disasters are to follow.

Jay

There were people like you in 1938, too.

Northern Wolf

Imagine the disaster that would follow if these decent patrol boats you propose were the only thing the navy had and the U.K was attacked? They would be useless against a real warship.

They might be cheap, they might be expendable and they would probably serve their purpose as “patrol” boats well, but replacing combat vessel with them is dangerous to the point of stupidity.

I don’t like the argument of “we don’t need these expensive defence projects because we will never be attacked”. It sounds good on paper, until the attack that will never happen, happens.

David Stephen

I am posting this here as well as another thread to ensure you see it TH. Will you never stop? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If we halved the defence budget what would you do with the money? Piss it away on more socialist nonsense no doubt. Try to understand this. A governments first responsibility is to safeguard its citizens and their way of life. Everything else is secondary. There is no point having the best education and welfare systems ever devised if you can’t defend it. The world is not the hippie drum circle… Read more »

Mike Saul

David think you need to check your maths, although the comment about transgender animal rights is amusing.

Baz

TH
The second word is Off

LOL.

Jonny

oh no not you again… “tax payers alliance” retard

David Johnson

TH shows his ignorance. Well done.

Barry Larking

The S.N.P. lacks credibility today even in Scotland. That said will the thirteen be built? That is a serious question in the light of recent disarray in defence planning and project management irrespective of ill informed or simple malign opinion.

Who says the SNP lack credibility in Scotland???
Seems like your Tory opinion is in disarray

David Stephen

The SNP are just like TH or Lilly Allen as I like to call her. They are just slinging mud with nothing worthwhile to contribute. People up here are thankfully waking up to the SNP and their toxic crap.

Steve

The SNP have a clearly openly advertised agenda of wanting an independent Scotland, as much trying to make the rest of the UK out as the bad guys is their aim in life, as it would secure their agenda. If you take apart the independence agenda from their message and it is kinda right. We all have the fear that failure to place a firm order on the full number of vessels means that they will get ultimately cut, I highly doubt down to 3 but two batches of 3 and stop is possible, with a vague promise of the… Read more »

dadsarmy

Chapman’s point was this “”three is clearly not the thirteen promised to the workforce on the Clyde”. Thirteen built on the Clyde became 8 built on the Clyde, and 5 built around the UK (blocks) and ASSEMBLED in the Clyde (a big difference). Chapman’s point is this “the UK government could not confirm the date for the publication of their much vaunted National Shipbuilding Strategy due last year” Chapman’s worry is clearly that, like the T31, the other 5 T26 will be built around the UK, and perhaps just assembled on the Clyde, and perhaps not even that. Like me,… Read more »

dadsarmy

Steve, just read my reply to you and I think it must have been meant to be to someone else. Oh well, too late at night for me.

Baz

Im English and i am married to a Welsh women I was born in Cornwall but moved to Plymouth when a young lad I left school and got a job in Devonport Dockyard I started on the Tugs and by god we had a fleet then I had the fortune if being at the launch of the last naval vessel to be built at Devonport I then went on to serve a very long time in the RFA The jist of this is the fact that i now live in Wales And beleive me when i say that the SNP… Read more »

Thomas

If you were born in Cornwall, then you have a right to be Cornish and not English. Take a read:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cornish-granted-minority-status-within-the-uk

dadsarmy

I’m a “nationalist” or at least support Independence for Scotland. And I often point out that, if we think (rightly) our road and rail network didn’t get the investment over the decades that it got in England, they should just look at a map of Wales to see how much worse it is there.

The lack of investment in infrastructure in Wales over the decades is an aboslute disgrace. Take out the gold, silver, copper, tin, lead, coal and now even steel.

Your grief is not with Scotland, it’s with the UK Government.

TH

But I do know what I am talking about. The Type 45 destroyers have been an unmitigated disaster and a huge burden on the taxpayer. The country needs defence forces but not the sort the government are providing. This level of spending is unsustainable. A good active force of coastal patrol boats would be more relevant. A second aircraft carrier cannot be operated and will doubtless be sold off or spend long periods of time moored up alongside. How on earth does sending ships to the far reaches of the globe defend this island? The Russians and Chinese are not… Read more »

Steve Salt

“The Russians and the Chinese are not a threat”
With a single sentence you prove your naivety and ignorance,

Jonny

what a retard…do you live in a fucking cardboard box just watching the world go by? “They’re not a threat” hahahaha, you made my day with that joke. You clearly don’t belong on this site, and you’re certainly not going to change any of our minds to your left wing nonsense, so why don’t you go read the daily mirror. XD

Gunbuster

“The Type 45 destroyers have been an unmitigated disaster and a huge burden on the taxpayer.”

Sources?
Figures?
Cost analysis?

Anything to support that statement…anything …anything at all?

TH

*former publicly owned utilities

Pacman27

TH I am afraid you don’t know what you are talking about. Fact 1: Britain does not grow enough food to sustain itself and therefore imports lots. Fact 2: The majority of our food comes via Sea and Air Fact 3: A coastal/ border force will not secure our food and trade routes Fact 4: By depriving the UK of food for 2 months an enemy or external force would starve the UK (which has a 3 week food buffer). Fact 5: If your approach had been applied during either of the previous world wars the UK would have lost.… Read more »

TH

Hilarious! So now you compare the navy with that of the Second World War. There will never again be Atlantic Convoys. And even if the defence budget were quadrupled, it would not provide hulls as there were in the Second World War. The QE2 carriers are not suitable for convoys and every time they put to sea, they use up escorts which if one follows your argument, would be required for convoy work. The best way of securing food was as a member of the EU and we all know what happened there. A coastal defence force is all that… Read more »

Stuart broome

TH as a member of the TPA I assume you believe in protecting taxpayers money from being wasted. So how can you mention being a member of the EU as a positive.
Food security comes at a huge premium from the EU something a money man like you should know.

TH

You may live in an imaginary world where Britannia rules the waves Steve Salt, I deal in hard financial facts. Massive sums of Russian and Chinese cash is invested in the UK including in infrastructure projects. They are no enemies or else their money would be rejected and I can assure you that it is not.

Stuart broome

TH you are not only a financial genius but obviously an expert in geopolitical issues past and present. I am sure if you asked many people across the U.K. they are concerned about Chinese and Russian investment because they are worried about the undue influence of two nations that are totalitarian dictatorships. They both use state sponsored commercial spying and do not comply with internationally recognised laws regarding patents etc. They are at best competitors and might prove to be far worst in the future. We hope not of course but credible defence forces are needed because these countries cannot… Read more »

TH
Pacman27

TH

China is investing in the UK for 2 reasons:

1. to extra influence over our government
2. to get a return on its investment

China has a very long term strategy in comparison to western nations. The UK has a 5 year strategic cycle at best (which again leads to waste with taxpayer money).

China is outmanoeuvring every western government (possible exception Germany) across Africa and Asia as a result of this patience.

Steve Salt

You really are a naive,sanctimonious prat.The proper defence of an island trading nation can’t be conducted by a fleet of OPV’s.Perhaps its you who should grow up and grow out of the half arsed student union debating society mentality you have.

Pacman27

TH I think you should have a talk with people in Ukraine and more specifically Crimea. There may be a lot of change since the WW’s but a lot stays the same as well. I accept your right to come on here and bait the group and you are conflating a number of disparate facts and giving them far more credibility than they deserve. If you haven’t noticed the UK has been heavily deployed for the last 30 years + and this shows no sign of abating. The aim of many people on this site is not to question the… Read more »

TH

Perhaps you could name a girl band in Somalia? 13 T23 frigates which are well past their best and which are money pits and half a dozen T45s some of which spend extended periods alongside represent a financial waste. The reality is that there is a massive hole and the sooner facts are faced and the defence budget is cut to reflect the ability to pay, the better. Meanwhile, the Chinese and Russian inward investment continues and not one ship of theirs would be needed to bring this country to a halt. Defence will certainly be cut heavily in the… Read more »

Jonny

You do realise that if we cut our defence budget we wouldn’t be a part of NATO as we only just get to the 2% mark as it is. Cut the foreign aid budget however… and that’s where you should take your “taxpayer alliance” bullshit.

TH

Germany 1,2% Italy 1,5% Canada 1% Spain 1,2% ……………….

chris

TH – “Germany 1,2% Italy 1,5% Spain 1,2%” So basically our lovely EU friends have been freeloading off us and the USA for their defence? Therefore they are no friends and we are better off out. If the EU wants to be a nation state and have a military we should bin NATO, let the EU look after their own backyard and entrench our security with people we can trust like the ‘5 Eyes’. especially as we look to a global Britain post Brexit. Plus you comments about the EU and food did make me smile. We PAY the EU… Read more »

TH

Ah, a truck driver. A real expert then?

chris

TH – And in that one piece of garbage you call a reply you show your true colours as a sanctimonious p***k full of his own self importance and self righteous condemnation of anyone you consider ‘lower class’. You reduce a detailed 4 paragraph comment with attachment to THAT? Yes I drove trucks to feed my family when times were hard. I was away from home for weeks on end just to pay my mortgage. For that I feel NO shame or regret or feel I should be castigated for my work. And certainly not by some half baked Leftie… Read more »

Gunbuster

“T45s some of which spend extended periods alongside represent a financial waste.”

How so?
Alongside they have minimum crew, are not burning fuel, are not using spares are not running up hours on equipment.

Alongside they are spending less cash than when at sea.

Pacman27

Tim – Is stand corrected – it was Ethiopia (apologies to anyone from Somalia reading this post)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/ethiopian-spice-girls-given-5m-british-foreign-aid-despite-previous/

From a respected source

dadsarmy

Umm, if it’s the Telegraph is the respected source, that’s the same paper thinks the Kuznetsov sheltering in the Moray Forth after a planned exercise in the North Sea, was discovered by a fishing boat, and the RN weren’t aware of that till they read it on the internet.

Umm.

Lenny

The UK has 100,000 UK citizens living and working in the UAE alone. I’m not sure how couple of offshore patrol boats is going to provide enough cover for an evacuation and the required humanitarian effort whilst the evacuation takes place if hostilities were to break out in the gulf. Its not just about protecting the mainland UK, the UK has plenty of interests ie citizens around the world because we participate in something called the global economy. Over 5.5 millions brits live and work overseas.

Ron5

Criticism for the SNP that doubts the MoD’s promise of 8 type 26??

Clearly you are not a student of history.

T45’s started at 12, cut to 8 then reduced to 6. On the flimsiest of excuses.

T26’s started at 13, already down to 8 before steel cut for the 1st.

You’d be nuts to bet on 8 being built.

Fact: Bae offered to build them half a billion cheaper if an order for all 8 was signed. Osbourne declined. Says it all really.

dadsarmy

Possibly 6 x T26. 3 built on the Clyde, 3 built elsewhere. With 6 T31 and 5 OPV minus 3 retired OPV, that makes a gain of 1 to the fleet – which means Fallon wouldn’t have lied when he said: “we will end up with a fleet that is larger than the fleet at the moment”.

Perhaps I’m being too cynical.

Steve

come on guys, anyone that thinks China or Russia are the enemy are fouling themselves. Both have vastly more natural resources and potential man power than we can possibly hope for. I also doubt that the US could take on and win against China considering they couldn’t really win in Afghan or iraq without local forces. The days where a superpower could rule the world are over and it ended roundly with Vietnam. the same applies the other way and I guarantee Russia and China know it. p.s. the Falklands finalised it when a country that was considered miles advanced… Read more »

Stuart broome

Steve. So the west should just roll over and let the Russians and Chinese do what they like and we just need patrol boats. They are both potentially dangerous undemocratic states whose interests and standards of behaviour do not match our own. Nobody seriously believes or wants an all out war but a credible conventional and nuclear deterrent are required. Our navy is our strongest military arm and has been decimated and this disarming is highly dangerous as it only encourages potential bullies. The world has certainly changed but human nature has not.

Thomas

We must stop making enemies out of Russia and China. Is there something in the English psyche which leads to arrogance and the need to see enemies where there are none?

TH

Well said Steve. A navy of patrol boats as many are now calling for. Wait until the next defence review. A few nasty surprises in store for the arm chair admirals and generals then I fancy. Warmongers happy to see tax payers money wasted on useless weapons of war. The campaign to cut defence spending goes on. Letters to MPs in the weeks ahead.

Gunbuster

“Warmongers happy to see tax payers money wasted on useless weapons of war. The campaign to cut defence spending goes on. Letters to MPs in the weeks ahead.”

So how about

” happy to see tax payers money wasted on a hugely inefficient and wasteful NHS. The campaign to cut NHS inefficiency goes on. Letters to MPs in the weeks ahead.”

No??

Thought not.

Lars Cocklehurst

Make sure u do not mistake SNP for Scotland guys,they aint

As for the boats 3 is not 13 but u dont order 13 in single go.

However BAE need to deliver quality and on price, boat numbers need to increase we are below in desirable numbers for RN. Take a mix of 26 & 31s but dont get mix wrong. If BAE cant deliver then we need to look abroad to get value

dadsarmy

“If BAE cant deliver then we need to look abroad to get value”

I suspect that’s a possibility – the MOD is strapped for cash, and the 15 year 2009 BaE TOBA runs out in 2024 – just about the time the 3rd T26 will have been launched.

After that it’s open season on naval shipbuilding tenders.

TH

Or alternatively, purchase a fleet of versatile patrol boats.

chris

Or better still take your moronic sanctimonious put downs and shove them where light cannot be found ….

Oh wait no … Your head is up there …

dadsarmy

“While we do agree that the Government are on the date for the publication of their National Shipbuilding Strategy, our issue here is the implication that only three frigates are to be built.” First part is correct, your second part is wrong. The implication isn’t that only 3 frigates are to be built, the implication is that only 3 will be built ON THE CLYDE. The first part of your statement I quoted explains that worry. As for built in batches, yes, I know that, the SNP know that, and Douglas Chapman, SNP Spokesperson for Defence Procurement, knows that. In… Read more »

John Hoare

The simple truth as to why the government has not paid for more f35b, initiated the construction of the 31frigate as well as incidental programs like surface to surface missiles for our destroyers and frigates as well as a host of other programs is that the country has no money to do so. It amuses me when some people on these sights bang on about what the government should be doing when they obviously haven’t taken the time to look at the state of the nation’s finances. A great post on another page shows that if the government had reduced… Read more »