Minister for Defence Procurement Jeremy Quin said that the money will help launch the next phase in designing and delivering the “world-leading future combat air system”.

Quin said:

“We have launched the next phase of our programme to design and deliver Tempest and I am proud to say that, over the next four years, we will invest more than £2bn as Government into a world-leading future combat air system to keep us and our allies safe alongside us, leveraging additional investment from our first rate international and industrial partners.”

Another excerpt from the speech is shown below.

“There’s a third and final aspect to Tempest that I wish to highlight today. It is not merely about strengthening our industry but bolstering our international ties. This programme gives us a chance to work with like-minded allies to share technology, experience and R&D costs. To enhance our understanding and interoperability. And to build something that is world beating. We’ve already made significant progress with our partners Sweden and Italy. Partners who bring credible industries and great strength-in-depth design, manufacture and sensor technologies.

And we’re now exploring the important corporate opportunities with Japan. Each partner will bring a host of benefits and expertise to the table. I’ve already touched on ‘digitising’ the industry – Saab, the industry lead for our partner Sweden, have done some great work in this field. Through digital testing of their Gripen-E, they have drastically reduced the hours and cost it would have taken to test a physical system; they’re now calling it the world’s most cost-effective fighter jet. I’m sure we’ll be looking to learn a lot from them about the huge benefits that can be delivered by this kind of digital simulation.

Combine the technical experience of Sweden with our long-standing Combat Air partnership with Italy which has gone from strength-to-strength with Eurofighter and F-35, and potentially the world-leading manufacturing technologies being developed by Japan, on top of the world-beating qualities that I have explained the UK has to offer, and that really is a winning formula. And we’re open to other partners coming on board

Thirty years ago, the UK and its western allies appeared unchallenged in the air domain. Today our adversaries have caught up. But a major national and international endeavour is now underway. Working with industry and with our international allies, we are aiming high. A state-of-the-art system fit for tomorrow’s world. A system that matches our ambition to invest in high-tech skills, jobs and businesses. And a system that will ensure, decades from now, whenever the next conflict arises, we will stay in control of the air, winning the air-fight and protecting our peace and prosperity for generations to come.”

You can read the full speech here.

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ChariotRider
ChariotRider
3 months ago

Is that the same £2b that was announced by Gavin Williamson in July 2018 or is it the next installment?

If it is the next installment then things are really developing for Team Tempest with Sweden and Italy signing onto the project on the 21 December 2020 (not entirely sure of to what level though).

Cheers CR

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Its the same 2bn CR…..its like Top Cat’s dime on a string!

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

That was my first thought, then I had a burst of optimism. If I’m still being optimistic the new statement does say ‘more than’ and I guess the companies are burning through the original £2b so the government will need to be thinking about the next installment…

Cheers CR

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Yes ‘more’ was probably said in the fashion of the Beadle in Oliver Twist. If it is an extra 2bn and we end up having to cancel….will it have cost us more than the TSR2? Awaiting incoming!

Last edited 3 months ago by Herodotus
John Clark
John Clark
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

We reached four posts before someone mentioned that particular four letter word!!

Honestly H, what on earth has a large, twin engine Delta winged strike aircraft, with a large internal Bomb bay from the 1960’s got to do with Tempest …. Oh wait s minute!

Joking aside, come on chaps, glass half full, we are quite capable of doing this…

Last edited 3 months ago by John Clark
lee1
lee1
3 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Our industry and people are capable of doing this. I am not sure our Government is capable of doing this (Or doing pretty much anything to be honest).

I can see this getting cancelled just as it is ready to go into production.

The Big Man
The Big Man
3 months ago
Reply to  lee1

Or doing pretty much anything to be honest

Apart from vaccinate people and show the EU how to do it. And lead the world in supporting the private sector to find a way out of Covid. Perhaps my response is too narrow.

Lots of other good stuff, but let us focus on the lesser bad stuff or cock ups.

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 months ago
Reply to  The Big Man

First rule of QI own and learn from your mistakes as well as your success.

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
3 months ago
Reply to  The Big Man

Well said. Doom is the four letter word of choice around here. TSR2 was a fine (even beautiful) response to the wrong requirement. I think Tempest is much more likely to succeed since the requirement is not solely a U.K. one.

Mike Nicholson
Mike Nicholson
3 months ago
Reply to  lee1

Ye of little faith.

DRS
DRS
3 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

They need to get a prototype out and get it flying to make this real. Else too easy to cancel. It could be several prototypes with different version but good to have something real despite all that digital testing. You need to test out the manufacturing process to make something too.

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

AND…the P1154 and the HS681 and Nimrod and Skybolt and….those were the days Off you go guys!

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

… and Avro 730 which looks fiendishly like Skylon so maybe there are comebacks available in this sector. Indeed Tempest might already be considered one.

TrevorH
TrevorH
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

Skybolt was American. Nimrods wings would not fit – if you are trying to blame the government for that you are desperate. Its naive to think that the P1154 would ever have been successful. Navy and air force could not agree on the specification, navy wanted inteceptor and RAF wanted strike. Then would the range and payload have been sufficient. It seems perverse looking back but in the end the navy did not want it, preferring to have Phantoms. That choice doomed it… It was left to Labour to cancel it. Again in hindsight the lift fan would have been… Read more »

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  TrevorH

Oooooh. I thought I was having a bit of fun with my fellow posters but maybe not. Have a nice day.

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

You are not allowed to have fun on this forum unless you prefix it with ‘this is for fun’. So here goes, ‘this is fun’…the present government are a ‘crowd of incompetent arse-heads that couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery ?

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Just a point of order….you can’t organise a piss up in a brewery any more, it’s against the law. It would be more appropriate to say they could not organise social distancing in the middle of an empty field with six people or less.

Trevor W Hogg
Trevor W Hogg
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Oooh that is where you are wrong. They would be very skilled at organising a piss up in a Brewery, then claim it on expenses. – this is also for fun

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Nice command of Anglo Saxon language there H but a test for you based on a recent story. Who would you rather have a pint/drink with?….. Boris or Sir Keir, Liz Truss or Diane Abbot etc You have to choose.

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

Just as well that I am teetotal these days! Have you ever been door-stepped by a politician….presumably not, otherwise you wouldn’t suggest being trapped in a bar with one!

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

I am too and yes I have….well executed escape!

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

Someone mentioned Nimrod cancellation – and that did it for me, Geoffrey! lol

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

How could you pollute our forum with fun….your such an utter fun troll Mr Roach.

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

HO HO HO

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
3 months ago
Reply to  TrevorH

But the Nimrod MRA4s wings did fit. It’s just yet another myth of the British aircraft industry!

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bae-systems-nimrod-mra-4.32010/

An interesting debate on the subject by BAE people.

Steve
Steve
3 months ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Going to be interesting to see how far this goes before it is cancelled, and how much money down the drain. Realistically none of the big countries will order them and that means economy of scale is non-existent and if it does get ordered, the unit cost will be nuts making very few platforms.

Our best hope is the European project falls apart, which seems likely with politics, and Germany decides to opt for our solution over whatever the French and don’t just go US.

Andy a
Andy a
3 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Could we not get Korea (south) turkey(bae been working with) or other Asian countries to come in as minor partners? Surely Taiwan is looking to spend some of their big bucks? How about Saudi or Middle Eastern buyers

Steve
Steve
3 months ago
Reply to  Andy a

Taiwan will buy US as they are scared for their existence and won’t do anything to compromise their relationship with the US. Turkey would put is into trouble with the US, so can discount them. Saudi/Middle East would be a token purchase at best and come at great cost to the tax payer, as happened with euro fighter.

AJP1960
3 months ago
Reply to  Andy a

Wouldn’t want Turkey. They are getting very cosy with both China and Russia. Taiwan is focussing on it’s own, indigenous, project

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Jaguar, Tornado,Typhoon, Lightning (ish)… joint projects.

Delabatte
Delabatte
3 months ago
Reply to  Steve

If Germany join Tempest it’s probably not a good news for the project ?

Steve
Steve
3 months ago
Reply to  Delabatte

Germany is the only country I could think of that could potentially buy more than 20-30 jets and would consider going with anything other than domestic/ US.

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

The very same, it’s also likely the same £1-2 billion for the FOAS that then when on to become the DPOC in 2010 and now it’s the FCAS. The great thing is when you don’t have any money just magic beans you can run around setting aside billions for any four letter acronym you like.

TrevorH
TrevorH
3 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

I read, as I hope you do, it said 2 billion over 4 years. Plus developing ties with other nations.

Indeed “more” than 2 billion.

DRS
DRS
3 months ago
Reply to  TrevorH

Williamson said 2.5bn over 4/5 years. It is the same money.

Ron5
Ron5
3 months ago
Reply to  DRS

But is it the same 4 years?

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  DRS

I am reminded of a line from a Kurt Weil song from the 1930s ‘politicians are just magicians that make money disappear’

SD67
SD67
3 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

2000 engineers working on it so loaded cost of £200m a year for labour, double it for equipment and facilities say 400m per year.

2 billion gets us from here to 2025 main gate

SD67
SD67
3 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Never understood this British obsession with TSR2, P1154, HS681. What market was there exactly?

Fairey Delta 2 on the other hand…

Herodotus
3 months ago

I was enthralled until the term ‘world beating’ reared its ugly head. Proof of the pudding is in the eating….will it be creme brulee or spotted dick…. lets wait and see rather than brag about something that has yet to be realised!

Andy P
Andy P
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Yeah the hyperbole is kind of pointless I’d have thought, I doubt anyone in defence buys into it. Seems the business types still lap it up so we’re stuck with it.

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  Andy P

We are all treated like children in this Country by the Etonian elite Im afraid. Oh how I would love to have a very well financed and accurate ISAW or independent school attack weapon to solve that particular little problem.

Douglas Newell
Douglas Newell
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

The freedom to spend your money how you like on educating your kids is a terrible thing!

Ron5
Ron5
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

I think Quin would be rather upset to be called an Old Etonian.

Ian
Ian
3 months ago
Reply to  Andy P

Millennium Falcon anyone?

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

World beating in 1986 maybe but it’s an F22 40 years later with a slightly bigger boot and a better in car stereo.

John Clark
John Clark
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

Martin, Tempest is a generational leap on from the F22, in all areas.

Construction, propulsion, avionics …
All a world apart from the 30 year old F22 design.

Taffybadger
3 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Don’t burst Martin’s bubble, he is in a happy place!

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Nah, tempest is a power point presentation for an F22 with updated electronics and engines and a big box under the fuselage. It’s got tail fins and it’s Low observable. If it was truly going to be 6th gen then it needs to be tailless with kinetic performance better than Mach 3. Building a manned fighter at this stage is insane, at best this thing would not get into the air before 2040 by which time it will look like the swordfish trying to escape the Me262.

Andy a
Andy a
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

This is what upsets me with all the “were rubbish” don’t fly Union Jack, every military is better than ours, oh forgot, we should still be saying sorry for empire rubbish! Come on guys! Bit of optimism!

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

Martin you really don’t know that, which means its just a self defeatist institutionally British thought about ourselves you are repeating. I know there is a lot of evidence to support such negativity but lets at least wait for some evidence in this case, otherwise we will never be able to escape this innate pessimism and it will just be sell perpetuating… or should I say more self perpetuating as it seems so endemic in recent decades.

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

It’s not self defeating, get your union jacks out and wave them just wave them at Taranis if you can see it. Every manned fighter program of the last 40 years starts off with the opening, this time it will be different and we will use computer aided design and blah blah blah so we can get a Ferrari for the price of a Skoda then 30 years later we end up with half the numbers and we pay Ferrari prices for skodas. For the same budget we can be operating hundreds maybe even thousands of UAS verses a few… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

That’s just not true…look at…um well..yes …um…. just…ohhh look is that superman.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

Martin. You should know better talking sense does not usually go down well in the UKDJ comments section ?????

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Hang on some of us love spotted dick at least as mush as Creme Brulee or Burnt Custard as it was originally known in medieval times before the French got hold of it. Lets hope our present plan doesn’t go that way as well in the end.

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

Yes, spotted dick….Kuching as I remember, and a very unpleasant 2 weeks on the South China Sea!

Propellerman
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

That’s your own fault, should have decamped to Miri and got yourself into Cherry Berries, much cleaner and you don’t have to roll them in flour beforehand

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Propellerman

Is that the establishment with the plywood cubicles out the back? I have quite a few funny stories about Miri and, come to think of it, Labuan as well!

Last edited 3 months ago by Herodotus
Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Nothing wrong with “world beating”. You should taste my wife’s Lasagne. WOW!

Taffybadger
3 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

Some of us have 😉

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
3 months ago
Reply to  Taffybadger

There’s naughty cymar. i’m a turk myself. Where are you from then?

Ron
Ron
3 months ago

I wonder what these phases are? Are they design concepts, tech concepts or just writing down what everyone might want.

Anyhows, it is good to see the project moving forward, but if the MoD want to get these aircraft to the RAF by the mid 2030s then prototypes need to be built in the next 5-7 years.Basically get a move on.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
3 months ago
Reply to  Ron

Hi Ron,

Yeh, there was a burst of equipment trials being announced a year or so ago but it has gone very quiet. I wonder if the programme has slowed due to Covid restrictions!

Cheers CR

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  Ron

Indeed I have literally just read that the Franco German effort is supposed to have a demonstrator by 2025 even though the inservice dat is close to 2040. I will be interested to see what takes to the air come 2025 in either effort. One big advantage Monday is that Saab have worked wonders both there and in the US in progressing complex fighter proposals of late computaionally so I am glad that they are on our side.

Captain P Wash
Captain P Wash
3 months ago

Another £2 Billion ? So that’s £4 Billion now ? How many would £4 Billion buy if they were already built ? How much more before we actually see one ? How much did the two Carriers cost ? Will it ever even get off the ground ? …. so many questions.

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Captain P Wash

Tune in next week for another episode of…..’Dick Barton’ special agent!!!!

pompeyblokeinoxford
pompeyblokeinoxford
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Cant wait and if I could I’d send you a smiley!

Crabfat
Crabfat
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

You’re showing your age, H…!

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Crabfat

Loved all those radio shows…nice to have some of them back on radio4 extra.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
3 months ago
Reply to  Captain P Wash

Whatever happens, at least the concept isn’t already dead in the water as the French/German/Spanish FCAS proposal seems to be

captain p wash
captain p wash
3 months ago

Very true mate…. I really hope we get to see this come to fruition, Global Britain with World class Aircraft again.

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  captain p wash

Interesting that they are raising the Japanese aspect in this after it seemed dead a year back, whatever role they play in the end it could transform the potential of this project and sales prospects. The Americans are hardly clear and focused about their future plans (despite claims they are already flying a prototype ‘6th Gen’) so the next few years could be very interesting.

The Big Man
The Big Man
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

But can you imagine the US allowing Japan to be part of this and then losing potentially hundreds of future orders as Japan buy into their own consortium result?
I hope at best, Tempest becomes a reality, but the US will not just sit there allowing a major competitor. At its least, I would hope to see major technology advances that could be sold and applied across the globe.
Then the gov of the day can sell these to Russia for agricultural use, similar to the jet engine.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
3 months ago
Reply to  The Big Man

The Japanese really want to build their own, thats why theyve been looking for international partners. They feel burned by the last attempt just being a glorified locally manufactured F16 with the US still retaining most of the tech as black box systems. They are looking for partners that will actually improve Japanese industry.

The Big Man
The Big Man
3 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Would be great to have them in board.

Ron5
Ron5
3 months ago
Reply to  The Big Man

Be careful what you wish for.

Jack
Jack
3 months ago

?

BB85
BB85
3 months ago

are there any decent links to the current status of FCAS.
Has team Tempest published any dates for when the design will be finalised for a test and evaluation airframe? I thought I saw 2027 published a couple of years ago for functioning airframe.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
3 months ago

Whether FCAS is dead or not, can anyone think of an overiding reason why the majority of EU countries i.e. NOT *Brussels*, (&, ok, maybe not the French but then again…?) wouldn’t yearn to have us aboard as a well proven and reliable European aerospace msnufacturer? Betyer most would. There can be issues, but unit scale trumps all.
Cannot be because we’re out of the *EU* and must suffer, surely?!
Last time I checked, the US wasn’t in the EU, but that did not stop member countries buying F16, F18 or F35.

George Royce
George Royce
3 months ago

We should go for a design that doesn’t have vertical fins. Use some of the tech found in the BAE Magma and Taranis. Also, go for a blended wing body, to store more fuel such as hydrogen. So much needs to be done to truly call the Tempest a 6th gen jet. A flying triangle, (think of a F117 without the fins) would be the right step forward. Every single design sketch I have seen of the FA/xx has been this kind of design. And focus on a high power to weight ratio so we can outperform any other jet.… Read more »

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
3 months ago
Reply to  George Royce

Maybe let the clever people at BAE decide the aerodynamics. And why on earth would we need a fighter to fly at mach 3? The fighters we have today hardly ever hit top speeds. I bet you can count on one hand the number of RAF Typhoon pilots that have flown at M2.

BB85
BB85
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I thought RR was working on some fancy engines that could to Mach 4 or did I dream that up. Probably the latter..
If it makes the project achievable they should use updated EJ200’s with the 25% increase in thrust RR has been promising for the last 10 years.

Ron
Ron
3 months ago
Reply to  BB85

True, my understanding is that RR could use some of the tech from Reaction engines for example the supercooler. RR is a partner with Reaction so that part of tech is understood. If it is usable on a single seat combat aircraft is something I don’t know, but it does seem the possibilities are there.

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  Ron

They are experimenting with putting the pre cooler from reaction engines in front of an EJ2000 which would offer a major performance boost. There is talk of this producing hypersonic speeds but it’s unlikely as the system relies on fan blades and their is a limitation to how fast air can move through such an engine.

DaveyB
DaveyB
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Flying at supersonic speeds is rarely done for a number of reasons during normal peacetime operations, one is cost, another is noise. However, in a full on conflict scenario, it will be predominantly used, as it has significant tactical benefits. One of the key requirements for quick reaction alert is time to height. In a conflict this could also be time to a demarcation line to meet an incoming threat. Typhoon is bloody quick in this regard, but the F22 will beat it, due to the higher power to weight ratio. The time it takes an aircraft to reach this… Read more »

IIVX
IIVX
3 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Thank you Davey B, that was most excellent.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

A very informative reply mate. Thank-you. And agree with your comments about the YF23. It would have been superior in stealth and supercruise performance over the F22. Typhoon will also probably improve in this area, as the EJ200 has considerable grow potential. Even the in service engines today can produce an extra15% dry and 5% in reheat in a war setting, but this affects engine life. One thing Typhoon certainly isn’t short of is thrust. Something that hindered how the Tornado F3 was operated was a lack of thrust, particularly in the dry power range. ?

SoleSurvivor
SoleSurvivor
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Yes, totally unlike yours above ?

I thought only the clever people at BAE can talk and put out ideas?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  SoleSurvivor

Except, those are real aircraft. And any of that information if you are interested enough is widely available. Plus I met and worked alongside side F3 crews over the years in the Fleet Air Arm, and heard it straight from the horses mouth.

SoleSurvivor
SoleSurvivor
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Read his last two paragraphs again, Davey is giving his opinion on the design of the aircraft, same thing as George did.

Heard what exactly from the horses mouth?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  SoleSurvivor

Are you just looking for an argument? The difference is, DaveyB knows what he is talking about. And has some very valid points, he isn’t simply designing a mach 3 fantasy fighter in his head. And he is correct in saying Tempest will probably not closely resemble the CGI images we have seen to date.

SoleSurvivor
SoleSurvivor
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Are you just going to carry on belittling people because you think they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Why not let people shine and have ideas.

“Maybe let the clever people at BAE decide the aerodynamics”

Such great informative debate I kneel in awe.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  SoleSurvivor

Ok pal. That’s enough internet for you for today.

DaveyB
DaveyB
3 months ago
Reply to  SoleSurvivor

I am basing my opinion on experience and knowledge and being a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society amongst others. The USAF really did fcuk up their choice of aircraft when they picked the YF22 over the YF23. Not only that they also played it safe with the engine, going with a development of a tried and tested design, rather than take the risk with the variable cycle engine. I am not saying the F22 is rubbish by any stretch of the imagination, only that the YF23 could have offered them something even greater. A lot of the knowledge is… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
3 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

The rumoured crash at Boscombe in the 90’s was suggested to involve an aircraft based on the YF23.
Maybe the programme went into the black.

DaveyB
DaveyB
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Use to be really funny watch the Tornados tale-off at Kandahar and compare them to other Nations Jets. In the summer and due to the altitude, the Tornados used to use the full length of the runway, then stay low for about 5 miles before pulling up. By comparison the other Nations tried to outdo each other. The USMC F18s used to take off really short and pull up to a near vertical climb. The french with Mirage 2000s could just about do this, but the Rafales would stay vertical until you lost sight of them.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

EJ200 would have transformed the Tornados performance, but at the expense of low level fuel consumption. And overall cost, and I imagine a considerable flight test program. And I think EJ200 in the F3 with AMRAAM/ASRAAM might just have threatened the Typhoon project from a cost and political viewpoint.

SoleSurvivor
SoleSurvivor
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Maybe let the guy put his ideas across on a defence forum without being put down by a boot licker.

There is loads of people on here with great ideas who don’t work at BAE, take a chill pill and stop licking establishment boot, starting to think you work for the government all you ever do is attack people who criticise the slightest thing.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  SoleSurvivor

I served in the RN, so yes I did work for the government for 14 years. And have a general understanding of how things work and what they might cost, and why or why not we need a certain capability.

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Only because of the limitations of the propulsion system, Frank Whittle would recognise almost every bit of an EJ2000. If Tempest is truly 6th Gen then it should have something beyond a turbo jet that makes hyper sonic speed realistic. Otherwise it’s a typhoon is stealthy coatings.

DaveyB
DaveyB
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

You will still need a combination engine, much like Reaction Engine’s Sabre. A low bypass turbofan to get you off the deck and then accelerate you through Mach 1. The turbofan would then convert to a turbojet as these are more efficient past Mach 2. You can push a turbojet to Mach 4 so long as you have a clever intake system. But you really should be looking at a ramjet or scramjet for above Mach 3 and beyond. However, ramjets and scramjets are really fickle, if the intake air gets disturbed they can easily flame out or surge. They… Read more »

Paul T
Paul T
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I’m doubtful of your assumption that Typhoon Pilots have not flown at the upper reaches of the Aircrafts Flight Envelope – it should be a pre – requisite of any Pilots Training.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  Paul T

They take the Typhoon supersonic all the time, just not in the upper end of the Mach range very often.

TrevorH
TrevorH
3 months ago
Reply to  George Royce

May be it will. But are your schoolboy ideas really founded on any sound basis? Dont you think we have good engineers? Tarantis first flew in 2010, 11 years ago, so whatever it’s worth, it must be well understood by now.

The Magma has fins.

captain p wash
captain p wash
3 months ago
Reply to  TrevorH

what’s “Tarantis” mate ?

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  captain p wash

It’s Latin for Tarantula!

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  George Royce

Hydrogen is a complex issue in terms of advantages over disadvantages. It has no real history in jet propulsion and is really slipping out of favour in rocket design in favour of Methane except where old engines are being employed of 2nd/3rd stages where it compares better. The only modern engine that I have seen that is looking to exploit it is the Sabre though I am only beginning to read up on why that might be, if it is beyond the fact that its gestation goes back so far that it simply incorporated the popular fuel of the time… Read more »

The Big Man
The Big Man
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

I can help out with the methane.

captain p wash
captain p wash
3 months ago
Reply to  The Big Man

lol….

DaveyB
DaveyB
3 months ago
Reply to  spyintheskyuk

Wiki has a good piece on Hydrogen fuel and why its not used (at the moment) for commercial flight. It basically boils down to the amount of volume you require to store it. It is much lighter than Kerosene, but pound for pound, Kerosene has a much higher calorific value, i.e. more energy packed more densely. The advantages of using hydrogen is that it is non polluting and is very cheap to produce compared to Kerosene. The larger volume it requires for storage would preclude its use on a fighter sized aircraft, unless you can live with the reduced payload… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by DaveyB
Martin
Martin
3 months ago

Have we learned nothing, great for the flag flying but can you imagine the damage this program would do to the UK defence budget for the next 30 years, it would make successor submarine program look like peanuts. The 6th gen looks identical to 5th gen and we have a 5th gen aircraft that’s a fairly reasonable purchase cost with a high British manufacturing and designed content. The UK should only build UAS domestically and focus on Taranis and Mosquito. If a manned fighter is needed and we are desperate to maintain manned aircraft building at Warton then do as… Read more »

lee1
lee1
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

To be fair the Tempest is an unmanned system although it can also be manned depending on mission).

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  lee1

Yes that’s the issue, spend a fortune making it safe for a man that is not needed and end up with 10 of them instead of 100. Skyborg building something not dis similar at $2 million a copy and you don’t have to spend tens of millions training a pilot and keeping their skills up. You can build hundreds and keep them in sheds marked open in case of war.

Meirion X
Meirion X
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

What you are saying, is that the UK should build it’s own 5 gen aircraft first, before thinking about building 6 gen aircraft. So to learn to walk first, before learn to run! You do have a very good point, thank you!

spyintheskyuk
spyintheskyuk
3 months ago
Reply to  Meirion X

… and even more concerning build it to enter service perhaps only 5 years or so before the F35 may need to start being replaced depending upon just how technology develops in the meantime. Fact is even the US is planning (if confusedly one might argue) for what might replace the F35 should it effectively become obsolete in its primary role by the mid thirties. This is why there are programmes there to study up to Mach5 aircraft again because there is no confidence that stealth will be able to protect an aircraft like the F35 by the thirties. Fascinating… Read more »

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  Meirion X

We already built one it’s called F35 where we are a tier one development partner.

Sooty
Sooty
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

You’re right. Its all far too much for the UK. Time to forget about sovereignty and leave the clever stuff to someone else.

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  Sooty

Lots of the clever bits in the F35 are from the UK, the stealth coatings and lift fan for one and much of the sensor fusion and the helmet had to be taken over by BAE. They did not make us a tier 1 partner and give us 15% of the work share so we could buy a few of them.

BB85
BB85
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

Why? We where already working on new radar and engines as part of future Typhoon upgrades so a lot of this research and development has already been carried out on other programs and can be integrated into a new airframe.
The most expensive part will be writing the code to make the new aircraft fly. Apparently things have become more efficient since the code was written for the F35.

Martin
Martin
3 months ago
Reply to  BB85

It could also be put into future F35 variant and UAS. Sticking them in to the new airframe is where it gets expansive and the cluster ****ery begins.

DFJ123
DFJ123
3 months ago
Reply to  Martin

Exactly. Tempest should pretty much be military porn to me but I look at it and can’t get past thinking how Brexity this all sounds. I struggle to see how a major product like this can be viable when the F-35 project, which god knows how many nations are participating in, is not good enough for us to complete more than a token order.

Paul T
Paul T
3 months ago
Reply to  DFJ123

Nail on Head!.

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
3 months ago

Fcuk me the negativity meter is off the scale on this one From the wee wets!. All I can say is thank fcuk our technology and aircraft innovators don’t employ staff with that negative outlook.

This country is WORLD CLASS ??at innovation technology and development. Combined with the Swedes and Italians we will be able to develop another numero uno amazing platform.

Good news I say given all the bad that’s come out lately .

?????????

Captain P Wash
Captain P Wash
3 months ago

Thank god we Wee Wet’s can spell !

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
3 months ago

Absolutely. The gov could have announced a escort fleet numbering 40, and still 80% of the comments would be negative. ?

captain p wash
captain p wash
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Yup….. and with good reason too……

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I’m surprised that they haven’t!

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
3 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

In service for 2070 ?

John Clark
John Clark
3 months ago

Well said, a British can do attitude is absolutely needed!

Bloody wet weekend from some, cheer up guys!

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
3 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Aye indeed JC indeed , they need to be a little more Ini Kamoze hot steppin do wonders for their outlook.

I blame the Internet and mobile phones ?

cha ching ching ???

?????????

Waddi
Waddi
3 months ago

And we’re now exploring the important corporate opportunities with Japan

Perhaps the most significant line in the whole statement? Japan is the front line against China and has to spend big. They were denied the F22 and have been looking at developing their own 5th gen fighter. If Japan does join the project then it raises the prospect of making the whole project financially viable.

BB85
BB85
3 months ago
Reply to  Waddi

Japan has already said they will not join. The best hope for for collaboration is on Engines and Sensors.

James Fennell
James Fennell
3 months ago
Reply to  BB85

Not true

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
3 months ago

“Gripen? Gripen?”. Wer’n’t we involved in a fighter of just that name?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
3 months ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

Sort of. Rolls-Royce built the engines and BAE had a hand in the avionics

Ron5
Ron5
3 months ago

Rolls Royce built the engines????????????????????

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
3 months ago

Is this what you were referring to Levi?

GKN joins feasibility studies for future fighter jet engines
“Air combat capabilities are designated by Sweden as a national security interest. Through a joint technology development, the Swedish aviation industry will be able to build and sustain their continuous development of competencies and capabilities in a cost-effective way. GKN Aerospace was contracted in Q1 2020 by FMV to conduct a study on collaboration with Rolls Royce on technology development of the future fighter engine.”

https://www.aero-mag.com/gkn-aerospace-fighter-jet-engine-development-13072020/

Peter S
Peter S
3 months ago

This will only ever succeed if BAE can avoid the problems of the F35 development. Although there have been issues with airframe and stealth coating, the real money pit and the reasons for the delays is the software. Whilst the flight control system sees to be working well,ALIS has failed and its intended replacement isn’t going too well. Integrating weapons is slow and vastly expensive: block4 upgrade alone has hit $14b. It is always worth asking what problems a new piece of equipment is intended to solve. We already have a Mach2 strike fighter in Typhoon and stealth in F35.… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
3 months ago

There are some very interesting new technologies being developed for Tempest, clearly some of which can be installed on the Typhoon fleet at a later date.

I still think it was a mistake not to replace the Tranche one’s once they are retired from service.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2020/15-10-2020-latest-uk-technology-revealed-for-a-ground-breaking-combat-aircraft.aspx

Ron5
Ron5
3 months ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

The T1’s had to be withdrawn to afford the updates for the rest. This is not rocket science dude.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
3 months ago
Reply to  Ron5

Have you been kicked off STRN/Navy Lookout already Ron5?

That didn’t take long, I’ve never seen so many ?????????? on an individuals post. Why is that?

Ron5
Ron5
3 months ago

What makes him think that Sweden is “like minded”. Does he know nothing about them?

Andy a
Andy a
3 months ago

I did read the states after f35 are changing from big runs of aircraft that take 10 years to design. Instead use IT make a run of 100 with latest of shelf tech. Then 5 years later do another. This stops them being out of date by time built and means stops China nicking every thing you develop and you can pivot quickly to counter enemy changes. This would mean our program could be bit silly, could just by in to their navy next optionally manned design

Herodotus
3 months ago
Reply to  Andy a

Oh please punctuate!

Jan van der Werk
Jan van der Werk
3 months ago

Love the way politicians throw figures around like false promises? “No cuts” Boris does this about cuts, then cuts. The short life cycle of administrations means short term decisions, usually for populist reasons. Historically we see how this changes when there is a change in government. Then sadly any money invested disappears when opposite decisions are made. The industry loves this. The poor bokkies on the front line end up patching and cannibalising old gear because the politicians change like the weather. Then we see examples such as the USMC getting Harrier spares for bargain-basement prices. No one it seems… Read more »

Paul42
Paul42
3 months ago

When you stop and think about how long it took to develop the F22 and F35, and the costs involved, 2 Billion is a tiny drop in a large ocean that will be required to get anything that comes remotely close to their capabilities built and flying, even in prototype form. This is the usual huge wastage of badly needed funds on projects that never see service that continually leads to cuts in capabilities we badly need. When will we ever learn to, like many countries have to buy fully developed products off the shelf?

Peter S
Peter S
3 months ago
Reply to  Paul42

Saab/Boeing seem to have made a breakthrough in design and build methods. The T7A went from drawing board to first flight in 3 years. The unit cost of the US contract is <$20 m.
T7A is a trainer but it is a pretty sophisticated one, capable of development into a light fighter.
It looks as though BAE aim to use similar methods for Tempest. But to succeed, the project needs to avoid overreach: what exactly is it to do that couldn't be done by existing aircraft?

John Clark
John Clark
3 months ago
Reply to  Paul42

I would argue that Generation 6 is going to quite different from generation 5. Just because it looks similar to Gen5, it shouldn’t be confused with the convoluted US F22/F35 projects, spanning decades. The new generation is all about digital design, coupled with AI assists, new manufacturing techniques and rapid prototyping. The Australian loyal wingman programme is a good indication of how fast hardware can be developed, from a mouse click, to wind under the wings in a few years…. There’s also the persistent rumours of the Americans rapidly developing and flying a Gen6 technology demonstrator as a black programme… Read more »

captain p wash
captain p wash
3 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Well said mate.

Camhanaich
Camhanaich
3 months ago

2bn … Frankly that is a ridiculous amount of money to pay out, when only to “help to launch the next phase in designing and deliver”.

As for the ‘mock up’, if thats the best looking thing they can come up with, why not just buy aircraft ‘off the shelf’?

Taffybadger
3 months ago

Wonder is its incorporating any SABRE engine tech…could have a real-life Firefox on hour hands!

Nate m
Nate m
2 months ago

hopefully this one won’t crash and burn like our stealth fighter project in the early 2000s.