Parliament was recalled from its summer recess to debate the situation in Afghanistan.

A striking statement was made by Dr Julian Lewis, Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, during the debate and it read:

“Having achieved our objectives of putting al-Qaeda to flight and punishing the Taliban, we should have announced that we were completely removing our forces but would promptly return by land and air to repeat the process if international terrorist groups were again detected in Afghanistan”

Dr Julian Lewis said in full:

“In his speech of self-justification after the collapse of Kabul, President Biden reduced a complex military issue to only two stark alternatives. It was a gross over-simplification for him to pose a devil’s dilemma between either a massive troop surge on a never-ending basis or a ruthless, chaotic and dishonourable departure.

It is ruthless because people who trusted NATO will pay a terrible price; chaotic because of a lack of foresight to plan an orderly and properly protected departure; and dishonourable because even if our open-ended, nation-building, micromanagement strategy was wrong, as I think it was, in 20 years we created expectations and obligations which those who relied on us had a right to expect us to fulfil, as the right hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) has just said. It has been pointed out correctly that for 20 years, NATO operations in Afghanistan succeeded in preventing further al-Qaeda attacks on the west from being launched under Taliban protection. That was indeed the key outcome, but unless we choose a better future strategy, the threat of its reversal is all too real. Not only may sanctuary on Afghan soil again be offered to lethal international terrorists, but other Islamist states may also decide to follow suit. How, then, should we have handled a country like Afghanistan when it served as a base and a launchpad for al-Qaeda, and how should we deal with such situations in the future?

These are my personal views on a defence issue unrelated to the work of the Intelligence and Security Committee. For the past 10 years, I have argued both inside and outside this Chamber, very often to the dismay of my parliamentary colleagues, that a form of containment rather than counter-insurgency is the only practical answer to international terrorist movements sheltered and sponsored by rogue regimes like the Taliban. Containment, as older colleagues will remember, was the policy that held the Soviet Union in check throughout the cold war until its empire imploded and its ideology was discredited. Islamist extremism has a subversive reach similar to that of revolutionary communism, and our task is to keep it at bay until it collapses completely or evolves into tolerant, or at least tolerable, alternative doctrines. In Afghanistan, the task of overthrowing the Taliban and driving al-Qaeda into exile was quickly accomplished in 2001, and at that point NATO arrived at a fork in the road. The option selected was, as we know, an open-ended commitment to impose a western version of democracy and protect it indefinitely in a country that had a strong sense of its own political and social culture and which was known to be politically allergic to foreign intervention.

Yet there was another option available to western strategists in response to the 9/11 attacks. Having achieved our immediate objectives of putting al-Qaeda to flight and punishing the Taliban, we should have announced that we were completely removing our forces but would promptly return by land and air to repeat the process if international terrorist groups were again detected in Afghanistan. When the Taliban regain full territorial control, they will lose their shield of invisibility. If they then choose to pose or facilitate a renewed threat—a terrorist threat—to western security, they should expect both their leadership and their military capability to be hit hard by our mobile land and air forces. That cycle would be repeated until the threat was removed, but we should not and would not allow our forces to be sucked in again.”

What’s going on right now?

Britain has evacuated over 300 British citizens and 2,000 Afghans.

In the long term, some 20,000 Afghans are to be welcomed into the UK over the coming years as part of a scheme to provide sanctuary for those most at risk of persecution by the Taliban and for those that helped British troops.

The government has promised that up to 5,000 Afghans can find refuge in the UK this year, with up to 20,000 in the longer term.

Yesterday we reported that a further 200 British troops will be sent to Afghanistan bringing the total to 900. 600 were initially deployed and 100 were already in the country.

The United Kingdom has so far evacuated more than 300 British nationals and over 2,000 Afghan citizens, Prime Minister Boris Johnson told the Parliament on Wednesday. Johnson made the remarks during his address to the Parliament which has been recalled to discuss the crisis situation in Afghanistan.

“We have so far secured the safe return of 306 UK nationals and 2,052 Afghan nationals as part of our resettlement programme,” news agency AFP quoted the British PM as saying on Wednesday. He also said that the applications of 2,000 more Afghan nationals have been completed and “many more” were being processed.

“I can announce today that we are committing to relocating another 5,000 Afghans this year, with a new and bespoke resettlement scheme focusing on the most vulnerable, particularly women and children, and we will keep this under review for future years, with the potential of accommodating up to 20,000 over the long-term”, Johnson added.

The night before last, the first flight of evacuated personnel landed at RAF Brize Norton in the UK from Kabul. The flight consisted of British Embassy staff and British citizens, say the Ministry of Defence.

Evacuation flights begin to arrive in Britain

As part of Operation PITTING, the UK Armed Forces are enabling the evacuation of British personnel from Afghanistan.

“On Sunday 16th August the first flight of evacuated personnel arrived at RAF Brize Norton in the UK. The flight constituted of British Embassy staff and British Nationals.
British forces from 16 Air Assault Brigade arrived in the Afghan capital over the weekend on Op PITTING to support the evacuation of British Nationals and former British staff eligible for relocation under the Afghan Relocation and Assistance Policy (ARAP).”

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Bloke down the pub
Bloke down the pub
6 days ago

All the lessons of Aghanistan will be forgotten the next time some woke activist claims that if we broke a country then it’s our responsibility to fix it. Some countries are just not fixable.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago

Absolutely agree 100%. We’ll said!

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago

Its not our responsibility, it’s a geopolitical requirement. If we toddle around the globe braking counties and then refusing to stabilise them, then our geopolitical enemies will pop in build a few roads, make friends grab the resources and power influence in that region and in some future decade hand us our own ass. finally I’m sorry but why is it that every time some people disagree with others views it’s now acceptable to slam them with a label like woke ( the world actual means someone who is aware and understands an issue). slinging things around like woke, fascist,… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The west is economically bankrupt and indebted. What you suggest is for the birds as we can’t afford the cost to intervene everywhere. Our troops are hamstrung by ambulance chasing lawyers as well. If you want to win you have to overwhelmingly crush with absolute prejudice literally and then reconstruct afterwards…that was never on the cards with all the activist lawyers in the UK…

Meirion X
Meirion X
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Totally untrue! We far from being bankrupted, house prices have risen 15% in the last year.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

House prices don’t determine the wealth of a nation. House prices have risen because of overseas investors in China, the middle east and Russia which they rent to our young people at inflated prices. Some estimates of UK debt put it at several times that of gdp. Moreover, young people are heavily indebted as well.

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Bankrupt????? compared to who??? Sounds like you been watching to much RT .

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

UK debt is nearly 100% of GDP and some estimates place it as several times GDP.

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Ye as I said who are you comparing the UK too? ,look at the US dept chinas dept , we have 5th largest economy in the world at the moment as India slipped to 6th due to COVID in which in the end UK come out in a much better state than most.

Peter S
Peter S
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

Even before the covid crisis, Britain was running large budget and trade deficits. Taking defence spending as the top slice, we have borrowed all the money to fund it for 20 years. As a former BOE governor observed, we rely on the kindness of strangers to balance the books, either by direct purchase of gov securities or by buying up UK assets. We are overpopulated and produce only @60% of the food we need. There is little being done to secure long term energy supply. On top of this, there are constant demands for more money- for education, healthcare, old… Read more »

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

Debt is only an issue when you can afford the interest payments, or can’t refinance when the repayment is due. The U.K. is seen as a safe place to place money; at the start of the pandemics foreign investors we’re buying U.K. Gov Bonds/Gilts at negative interest rates. In effect, paying the U.K. to store their money. If the U.K. were an outlier with regards to debt, then refinancing would be difficult. But most countries have run up staggering amounts of debt during the crisis. The instability of the Euro and the EU sovereign debt crisis is also still unresolved.… Read more »

Peter S
Peter S
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Other countries have racked up similar levels of debt during the covid crisis . Britain’s problem is that it has been running double deficits, trade and government funding for two decades. Because other countries have similar debt levels, there is still,as you say, an appetite for UK securities. But historically low interest rates won’t last for ever,inflation is back and a lot of UK government is index linked. ( In June interest payments were £8.7b, three times the level a year earlier)The rise in interest payments will further worsen the overall position whilst every sector and special interest group clamours… Read more »

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

There’s a bump in inflation currently due to the restart after lockdown but it’s not going to last. We’ll see low interest rates for a generation to come.
Would these be the same analysts that forecast a Remain win? Certainly sound like it. If they bothered to travel outside the M25 and talk to real people they would find out mass migration did not tip the referendum result.

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Sean my man I dunno what economists you’ve been listening to ? but inflation is coming and rates are definitely not going to remain low … this year next year 2023 ?but it’s coming as sure as night turns to day. the debt is already 2.3 trillion and counting , debt to GDP 99-107% you can’t keep expanding the money supply (it’s not money it’s currency) into the system and nothing happens I.e inflation. see that fella wee Klaus Schwab well he’s already told you what’s coming a “ Reset” he says it will be great I have my doubts.… Read more »

Sean
Sean
5 days ago

Damn, I’d forgotten we have conspiracy theorists on here too…

Last edited 5 days ago by Sean
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

😂 only there’s no conspiracy the economists are telling us it’s happening …..

Matt C
Matt C
5 days ago

I have been reading some Norman Friedman; the “Great Reset” forum calls to mind the interwar naval treaties in the sense that it feels a lot like an attempt to limit international competition and guide international efforts to a “solution” that preserves the status quo, ie Western economic dominance via technology, moving towards “green/ESG tech” as it goes down a treat with voters. (I am not a climate change denier but I believe in going about things rationally; the tactics employed by govts and NGOs to scare the public into supporting “green” initiatives smacks too much of fear-mongering to me.)… Read more »

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
4 days ago
Reply to  Matt C

Splendid use of vocabulary my man 👏🏻 I applaud the seamless sentencing (I am in no way taking the piss makes my crude ramblings seem council estate esk by comparison ) and yes you make some valid points nothing really to disagree with.

I wonder how Afghan is gonna play out now the Taliban are sitting on a trillion dollars worth of Lithium that the green street boys need for their technocratic revolution?

whole thing stinks of a script …….

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇬🇧

Andrew
Andrew
5 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I have a mortgage that’s 3 times my annual salary, so that’s equivalent to 300% GDP… I don’t consider myself bankrupt nor indebted…

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Then we pick the important fights and we win the fight then win the country, it’s people and resources. This is not an argument of morality or can we can’t we afford it it’s all about what political and cultural system will dominate the 21c. Personally for me I want it to be western liberal democracies. That means fighting with every geopolitical tool we and and fighting to win the long game. War is just part of the continual conflict between cultural and political systems, if you think of war as separate from this you will lose. The 20c was… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think the first battle to win is the rebuilding of our western economies. That is the first and most important battle then you can fight targeted and strategic battles. I think Taiwan will face major challenges with China and this may remake the world order. The economic state of the US and UK is one of the biggest issues.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I don’t disagree, China has been effectively running a Mercantile play book against the west for the last 30 years and we have fallen for it hook line and cheap plastic toy. The western nations need to form a single trade block and if you want to join our club you play by our rules. We are effectively paying the way for China to become our lord and master and it’s bonkers.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Excellent comment Jonathan I totally agree with you.

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Agreed.
China watched how the West, through the use of capitalism was able to bankrupt and cripple the Soviet Union.
Now China aims to do the same to us, by using capitalism against us… and they’re winning.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The only way to bring China down is from within.

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Unfortunately they’re even more ruthless with their own population than they are with neighbouring countries.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Indeed. But it can be done if you play a long game. Remember the Berlin wall fell because Mikhail Gorbachev let it. He was a baptised Christian who cultivated diplomatic back channels through a Polish Pope to Solidarity so they knew if they pushed the communist government in Poland would not be supported by Moscow. We are probably a generation away from being able to do that in China so firm but polite constraint is the name of the game for a while. Freedom of navigation patrols etc. But we should also compete with them in Africa and elsewhere by… Read more »

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yes but Gorbachev believed in Communism too, he didn’t foresee or plan the collapse of the USSR. He did see that the public of Eastern Europe were increasingly frustrated at their lack of freedom and their poverty, and he knew the Warsaw Pact didn’t have the financial clout to compete in the new arms race that Reagan had triggered. He knew change was inevitable, so he hoped to control that change by being its initiator.

Of course, things might have gone on for another decade as they were had it not been the catalyst of the Chernobyl disaster.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

As a Christian Gorbachev would believe in socialism or social democracy but not communism which is atheistic by definition. ( As an aside this is the labour party’s problem. In today ‘s world it finds it impossible to return to its Methodist roots). I’m not sure Gorby had a plan. Part of being chrisrian is not being a control freak, learning to accept reverses . Not entirely irrelevant in light of recent events . What he would have is faith that things would be better; which they were …he broke up an empire. Good work. Lots of messy issues today… Read more »

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

You seem to have an interesting definition of Christianity, an awful lot of Christians would object to your linking it with socialism. He was a communist party member and although he initiated change he believed the communist party would win in democratic elections – which was a tad naive.
He certainly didn’t want to break up the Soviet Union and put himself out of a job, but events spiralled out of his control.
(As for the current Labour Party’s problems, they are structural, myriad, and possibly existential.)

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The spiritual roots of the Labour party lie in the 19c community and solidarity and mutuals like the co-op which was most commonly found in the non conformist churches; just as the roots of the Tory party are to be found in the property owning classes who attend the established church. Indeed the NHS with its Bevanite origins is the best example of mutualisation. The conservative party’s star will remain in the ascendant just so long as they can enable people to become ‘one of us’ i.e. a property owner. It’s a club rather than a community.

Last edited 5 days ago by Paul.P
Frank62
Frank62
4 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Gorbachev is on record denying being a Christian but being an Atheist. His grandparents & mother where Orthodox Christians, but his secret baptism as a baby didn’t make him a Christian.That is a concious, deliberate decision, not a religious ceremony. The way Biden has conducted the withdrawal couldn’t have been much worse. I think we should do far more for those we’ve left behind. If the West doesn’t stand up for good in the world, who will? We can navel gaze, concentrate on making ourselves rich & decadent, but one day the evil we’ve let run wild in the world… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
4 days ago
Reply to  Frank62

What he said might not reflect what he believed. He had to thrive and survive in a communist state. If his mother had him baptised his formation would have been Christian Orthodox. And he did deal with the Vatican. Regarding Biden he was screwed from the get go by the deal Trump had signed. This was always going to be damage limitation. Evil is part of life. Thomas Moore used pray ‘Lord give me a soul that does not frighten easily at the sight of evil but rather tries to find the means to put things back in their place’.… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Yes they have been very clever, China has identified the weakness in our major strength and is now using that strength against us. Unless we move away for neoliberal ideology ( the market is paramount and if they produce it cheaper you buy it from them even if it destroys your own industry) and return to a more nation building type of capitalism ( pre First World War model of globalisation in which nations protected their industrial and production while at the same time used capitalism as the investment tool to create wealth and influence).

Matt C
Matt C
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

In brief, yes. The stock market is a relatively decent overall barometer of a country’s economic development although GDP, debt, budget, and various other factors are also very important. This is because the stock market is similar to GDP as a measure of the economy with the added advantage of incorporating a ‘balance sheet’ element of existing assets, corporate debt, and a certain amount of forward-looking valuation. A listed company does not only reflect the wealth of its shareholders, but also the salaries of its employees; if you work for a listed company, your prospects rise and fall (very roughly… Read more »

Pete
Pete
6 days ago
Reply to  Matt C

Stock markets such as FTSE and DAX simply reflect the value and future earning potential of individual businesses and multi national corporations. It doesn’t necessarily equate to wealth or health of a nation where those shares are traded. ( in terms of health and well being of society at large, employment, balance of payments, debt, budgets etc).

DOW for example has seen several stock market peaks concurrent to extended periods of rising US unemployment and small business failures over the past 30 years !

Matt C
Matt C
5 days ago
Reply to  Pete

It doesn’t directly equate, as I did say, but it is very useful as it covers pretty much the whole breadth of goods and services consumed and produced by the country, more effectively than a basket of goods. I listed some of the factors you mentioned as well, but in terms of money matters, the broad indices are a good starting point. (Health and the “happiness index” for example is a very feel-good measure that has little to do with resources and spending.) US unemployment is rising as the country shifts away from labour-intensive work to more knowledge-based and automated… Read more »

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Matt C

Looking at one of my investment funds that I have touched since 2000, I either have the financial equivalent of Albert Einstein managing it, or you’re wrong about your evaluation of “one hundred pounds of stock” then and now.

Matt C
Matt C
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Congratulations on your achievement. Then you ought to be well aware that funds cherry pick individual companies in order to provide above-average returns while broad indices are more reflective of the whole market, depending on weightages and so on. And for this purpose we are interested in knowing how the whole country is doing, not individual outliers.

Neil holdforth
Neil holdforth
5 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

China’s debt to gdp ratio is 245% ours is 100% USA is around 130% France and Italys is bigger than ours

Nate M
Nate M
5 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

bankrupt? i am not economist but the last time checked our public debt was going down and so was our unemployment rate and inflation. plus our gdp is 3.17 trillion dollars . compare that to Russia’s 1.6 trillion dollars.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I don’t the west is economically bankrupt. Not sure about morally bankrupt though….that’s worth a debate, but probably not here.

Sean
Sean
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m pretty sure Afghanistan was pretty broken long before we arrived in 2001…
But yes, the likes of Taiwan, Japan, Philippines etc must now be considering how reliable and committed the USA is as an ally. In Europe the Baltic’s should be thinking the same thing. On paper European members of NATO have sufficient firepower to resist Russia. But given the way European nations weren’t prepared to join with the U.K. to stay in Afghanistan after the US departure highlights a political lack of nerve to do anything that might result in their soldiers returning in bodybags.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Yes, Will is everything. On paper the french third republic should have been able to hand Germany its own arse. But their was little will and a smaller German army cut that politic to pieces.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Unfortunately very true, and very well said. In the real world, politics is never that easy. Right now the Chinese are sidling up to the Taliban, probably with the promise of money etc and soforth. China does’nt do anything for any country, without having an ulterior motive.

Bluemoonday
Bluemoonday
6 days ago

Yes, this is the problem right. The woke agenda has created all of this. Have another pint!

Rob
Rob
25 minutes ago

Well said and thanks for being courageous and letting your voice be heard.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago

I think it is a fundamental error to allow refugees to the UK. I don’t trust the UK government to do proper vetting and our own people desperately need decent housing. How many sleeper cells will arrive in this process? Our security services are already overstretched. We have Hong Kong refugees, Afghan refugees and all those arriving by boat from the safe country of France. What is the limit to these refugees on a tiny island that is already the most densely packed in Europe? I’ll get the usual vilification but those vilifying will be relativity rich with their own… Read more »

Something Different
Something Different
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

We’re a wealthy country who can accommodate refugees. We also have a moral obligation to those who helped the military and national interest in Afghanistan (a prime example being interpreters). If we don’t, good luck ever getting such help on the ground in future conflicts which could indirectly lead to more British casualties than any apparent sleeper cell (arguably incels and the far right are more of a worry on that front). As for the working classes in this country If they are at the sharp end is it either a) they’re not trying hard enough or utilising the mechanisms/amenities… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago

God were to start with your response…However, any response I provide would be wasted on you…really wasted…so what’s the point? I especially find your comment on incel and the supposed massive presence of the far right in the UK particularly enlightening on your skewed views….anyway what’s the point.

Meirion X
Meirion X
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I think you are Nick Griffin of the BNP!

Last edited 6 days ago by Meirion X
dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

,

Last edited 6 days ago by dave12
Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

I think insults aren’t conducive to good arguments indeed it denigrates your own. We can all disagree but we don’t need to resort to personal insults. Just okay the ball not the man.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Autocomplete typo – play the ball not the man..

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

M, come on. You don’t have to be a racist thug like N Griffon to have concerns regards immigration to this island of ours.

Meirion X
Meirion X
5 days ago

It was not really the immigration issue why I brought that name up Danielle, because of A’s denigraterly remarks of Afgan people in a comment which has now disappeared.

Last edited 5 days ago by Meirion X
Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago

The problem as I understand it is that we must generate a growing GDP in order to collect the taxes we need to finance the borrowings we have made for the things we have bought on tick. Since we are living longer, retiring earlier and having fewer babies we have a deficit of taxpayers. So we need immigrants, preferably young ready skilled taxpayers – hence the Patel rhetoric – brightest and best ( some would argue to compensate for those on benefits who take more than they contribute). We certainly don’t want any immigrant children. They are expensive to raise.… Read more »

Last edited 5 days ago by Paul.P
farouk
farouk
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Hey Meiron I received this earlier on:

c553e5c6-0767-42db-9966-e7b8c75a110f.jpg
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Grabs popcorn and awaits the deafening silence.

Peter S
Peter S
6 days ago

Are you personally going to accommodate refugees or give up a much greater portion of your income to fund their keep? I doubt it. We have no obligation to locals who chose to work for us. They know their own history better than we do so could easily judge the risk. It is time to end acceptance of any refugees in this country.

Damo
Damo
6 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

Wow. Help us, nah on you jog when the crunch comes. Fleeing war? Nah half of UKDJ says no more refugees.

Matt C
Matt C
6 days ago

The UK is not a wealthy country, the economy is just limping along and has barely recovered from the financial catastrophes of the 00s… and now it has Brexit and Covid19 to contend with. The “incel” phenomenon is a fantasy conjured up by the far left to justify their blatant man-hating, is about as scientifically proven as the horoscope, and is inherently sexist – think about it, why should shagging or lack thereof make anybody any more or less clued-in as to what goes on in the minds of the opposite sex? Humankind is at a historic all-time high in… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Matt C

Matt perfect response and well articulated. I feel it will be wasted on “something different”. I would love to see him offer to put up in his house some 12 year old afghan boy with a 40 year old beard…

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago

Ask the rural communities how much the British working classes can be depended on to come and bring in the harvests. Not a f%&king chance anymore. That’s why we need new blood. There are large parts of the economy of this county that have run out of worker full stop. So unless a few more British citizens decide to: work picking fruit at five in morning, become nurses and care assistances working every shift 24 hours 365 days, cleaning up vomit as they try and support the ill and dying, then we need a lot of Johnny foreigners who are… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

That is happened because of Labour’s 50% of young people,doing plastic degrees. The work ethic is there and it just needs reactivating as Labour’s paternalism has eroded that work ethic….that is a fact. Strict measures on a contribution based benefit system would do wonders to fix this issue. It doesn’t need people from outside it needs a complete overhaul of the benefit system. Also it means businesses need to make a smaller profit margin as reductions in immigration would lead to improved salaries and businesses training our own young people.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I don’t disagree in the longer term, but we have a a lot of work that’s not being done that needs doing and in some parts of the country close to 100% employment and tons of vacancies in jobs that pay, but no one will do.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think supporting geographical mobility in the UK would probably sort this issue out as well as better transport infrastructure.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Yes that would help, but I think you hit the nail in the head in regards to the welfare system, it needs more focus on supporting those that can’t ( old, disability) and have a far great push on getting those that can to do the jobs that need doing. I know some Great male care assistance who have come from manual working class jobs, but many would rather be on benefits that work in the care industry or agriculture.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Really good points Jonathan. Just wish the government would do what you suggest. It just needs the will.

Damo
Damo
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Labour’s paternalism has eroded that work ethic, that’s a fact? Show me this fact please. A simple Google search brings up nothing so maybe I’m looking in the wrong place or…..

Lt Aldo Raine
Lt Aldo Raine
5 days ago
Reply to  Damo

👏 😀

Matt C
Matt C
5 days ago
Reply to  Damo

(All paraphrased) Labour in 1945: “Social welfare programmes must be designed to encourage people to return to the workforce”

Labour in 2020: “Um yeah we know universal income experiments didn’t work but it makes voters happy and politicians must be seen to be doing something”

Meirion X
Meirion X
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Cheers!

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Sorry but as both a fruit picker, care worker and someone who oversees a workforce in crisis I find it sad that the vast majority of my colleagues are from other nations and it’s really hard to fill the vacancies since we left the EU, which makes it very difficult for the farmers, care agencies and NHS. At the same time I have a lot of relatives who would not get off their arses for anyone or anything including a pay check for an honest days work. Its a bit hard for someone who is essentially left wing to say,… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You have hit the nail on the head. Reform the benefit system so it is a proper contribution based system like the original intent of the Labour Party. It’s only in the last 50 years it became a means of bribing people.

Mark B
Mark B
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

We had a vote on Brexit and a decision for better or worse was made. Anyone who thought about the decision for one moment would have realised that there would have been far reaching consequences. I personally was happy to accept the democratic decision either way and was a little surprised at the leave vote. Polulations and Governments make sovereign decisions and learn to live with the results. We need to get on with this. If we need people to work we must stop paying them to stay at home. We need as individuals, companies and as a country to… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Actual you are right I should not have said working class, but definition that’s people who work to live. I think there is a new class who effectively choice to not work to live.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think you meant the underclass…I know what you mean. I think a lot of issues with the underclass comes from lack of self esteem. I know it sounds generous but I have spoken to a number and if you dig their grandparents worked hard but when industry almost died on the 1980s it hurt these communities hard and they lost their heart and soul. There are some hard core shirkers but dig and the work ethic is there just masked by lack of self esteem and depression about their lives.

Sjb1968
Sjb1968
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

All very true comments but please let’s not forget the other side of the coin in that many businesses have done very well from cheap Eastern European labour. At the same time many sectors are very poor at offering training and terms of employment have heavily favoured the employer. That has been the status quo for nearly two decades. We are now witnessing the pendulum swing more in favour of the low skilled Brit and that is a problem? Perhaps we may have less full time people on income support if businesses have to pay higher wages and offer better… Read more »

Damo
Damo
6 days ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

And there’s a shortage of lorry drivers at the moment. A good trade to get in to

Harry Nelson
Harry Nelson
5 days ago
Reply to  Damo

This is all well and good but the important matters to be resolved are:
A. Who do you think will win Love Island and
B. Will Harry Kane go to Man City😉

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 days ago
Reply to  Harry Nelson

Never watched A. But B, I hope so as straight in my FPL team.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 days ago
Reply to  Harry Nelson

The answer to A: get a grip man. B) who cares I support Everton.

Harry Nelson
Harry Nelson
4 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

At last , some meaningful debate….. And don’t get me started on the Changing Rooms reboot 😂

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 days ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

you have some truth there. The likes of retail and some there have been making money out of low wages. But The industries that are really suffering problems around workforce have complications created by society and not just producers making more money. The Agro sector is very poor at paying because the public are attached to cheap food. If you looked historically the major family bill was aways food. We live in a society in which food is cheap because the producers and growers are paid pittance. its the same with Care work, care workers are paid a pittance because… Read more »

farouk
farouk
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

At the moment the Do-gooders are demanding we open up our doors and take in more than we have. So I did a little research (note I am the child of migrants to the UK) this isn’t a dig at migrants, its just a few facts and figures in which to expose the misinformation peddled that the Uk is hostile to migrants and only takes around 1000 people a year. 1) The Uk has taken in 2200 Afghan interpreters and their families, we have said we are going to take in another 3000 and their families, if each family consists… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Thanks Farouk for the analysis which was perfect and illustrates the role the UK plays and how generous we have been. I was thinking of replying to “something different” but it was so full of non-sense I just gave up the will. I have learnt that some people can’t be convinced. We must all bare in mind the working class and lower middle class have been the most welcoming as migrants often need up in those communities, the middle and upper middle class often bleat on about their social conscience but rarely bare the social and financial costs. Any big… Read more »

dan
dan
6 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Trump closed the US to many Arab countries when he was president and they called him a racist. Biden reversed that decision and has opened the floodgates wide open again. Ugh

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Andrew Thorne. Spot on in my view. Yes, I’m also a child of a migrant. And my father himself says migration to this country has gone too far and must have a limit. I also actively campaigned for and supported Brexit and up to 2016 campaigned actively for Nigel Farage. And damned proud of that, no matter what the screaming lefties say. And no. I’m neither racist or a BNP member. Those people are scum who don’t deserve sympathy. It’s not you’re colour, but how you behave and fit in when coming to this country. Had these rows on here… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago

Thanks Daniele your comment is excellent and very insightful. I think the debate has become polarised in general. Many of those that support opening the doors, if they were being truthful, benefit from renting out accommodation, house price increases or cheap labour. It’s exacerbating the divide between the rich and poor for these precise reasons. Glad I’m not alone in my views.

OldSchool
OldSchool
5 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Sadly the do-gooders are just going to make Londistan bigger. Given Muslims have a high birth rate taking in more is accelerating Islamisation etc. In a world that has far too many people the last thing any country ( esp overpopulated ones like UK) should be taking is people ( unless highly skilled and in relatively small numbers).

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 days ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Exactly.

farouk
farouk
5 days ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Years ago I read a book called : “The Mote in Gods Eye” by  Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, Set in the far future, Earth comes across a dead alien in a spaceship behind a space sail. They trace it back to a Planet where the Aliens all smile, and claim to be peaceful . During negotiations, the aliens take over a Spaceship by force, in the hope of using it to allow them to settle on a new planet resulting in the other ships destroying it . It then comes out in the wash, that the aliens are anything… Read more »

Last edited 5 days ago by farouk
OldSchool
OldSchool
5 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Migration sadly is the new invasion strategy. Just look at the Channel. We should be doing push-backs sod the French. Those that come we should refuse ( they could have settled in the EU after all) and push them on into Ireland ( which i gather is a nice place.

Peter S
Peter S
6 days ago

At last someone in the House has talked sense. This was and remains the only sensible policy option for the West. I suspect that if Bin Laden had been caught or killed in 2001, that would have ended the intervention. The decision, encouraged by UN resolutions, to go much further and try to bring stable democratic government to a territory that had never known it, was a colossal error of judgement, incomprehensible in the light of the recent Soviet intervention. With a porous Eastern border, Pakistani training and equipment support, and finance from Saudi Arabia, Taliban groups could prepare unmolested… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

Great analysis and especially the comments about Pakistan but I would have included a comment on the critical role of Saudi, Qatari and Iranian funding. The Russian’s and Chinese would love us to spend blood and treasure on this country in order to slowly bleed us dry…

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

The airwaves are full of hindsight but he deserves credit for actually saying this before the proverbial hit the fan. He was right and most of the rest including me were wrong.

Damo
Damo
6 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

Agree with you there

farouk
farouk
6 days ago

Would ,could, should.

Hindsight is such a wonderful mindset

Klonkie
Klonkie
6 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Mate, you are so right! I wonder if our Leaders read a few history books on Afghanistan before hand? The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour. What did they expect to be different this time?

Might have been a good idea to chat with a few ex Soviet combat types from the 80s to hear their experiences beforehand!

Airborne
Airborne
4 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

We did, we had a private contractor flying a Mil, flew in the 80s in Afghan, liked a few drinks, and a cigar before (and cigar during) flying. H&S in that scruffy, messy but tough heli wasn’t top of the list lol…

klonkie
klonkie
3 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Tough old birds those Mi8s. I imagine the pilot was cut from a similar cloth, sounds like colourful character bit I’ll wager he has top of his trade. Any ex SAAF chopper jocks over there during your tenure?

Airborne
Airborne
3 days ago
Reply to  klonkie

He knew his stuff but was soon chinned off as more assets became available, cracked in with aid agency work I think. As for SAAF not known but there was that well known fellah in the late 90s, early 2000s in Sierra Leone, his name escapes me but he had an Hind and was doing a lot of support for UK forces, and knew the country like the back of his hand, along with his Fijian ex SF door gunner! Cheers mate.

klonkie
klonkie
2 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

thanks Airborne, you are no thinking of that splendid individual ,Major Neil Ellis, swanning about in his Mi 24. I believe he was involved in the op to rescue those Uk army lads captured by the West Side boys in Sierra L.

Mate, given your experiences, you no doubt have some exciting tales to tell!

Airborne
Airborne
2 days ago
Reply to  klonkie

That’s him, top guy and pretty much held off the RUF on his own, and much of it without being paid for up to a year at a time.

Jack
Jack
6 days ago

Especially women and children, why ? How many of them worked on the frontline alongside UK armed forces ? It was Afghan men that put their lives at risk yet get left behind, hung out to dry.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Jack

The men are the issue not the women and children. The men wouldn’t fight and save their own women and children so they deserve their fate as they are cowards. Hard truth but there you have it!

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I think you need to actually read up on the strategic picture faced by the Afghan army. It was basically a foot based light infantry, that was created by the west to be depended on allied infrastructure as some as NATO pulled the plug you ended up with a load of infantry units stuck in fixed positions with no open roads for supply, no air supply and no relief or retreat options. Faced with an enemy that if they did fight would kill them all in the most brutal way as soon as their supples ran out as well as… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Precisely!

Nate M
Nate M
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

not to mention shitty commanders.

Steve R
Steve R
5 days ago
Reply to  Nate M

Shitty commanders who greedily kept all their soldiers’ wages, so the poor buggers doing the actual fighting hadn’t been paid in months. That’s going to severely affect morale.

Nate M
Nate M
4 days ago
Reply to  Steve R

explains why they left their posts.

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Jack

It’s going to be women and especially educated women who are going to get the full force of the Talibans wrath. They should be first in the queue.

Meirion X
Meirion X
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

We could set up a safe haven in Northern Afghanistan for those who don’t want to be ruled by talaban, not many taliban there.

Last edited 6 days ago by Meirion X
Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Good point I would be in favour of that – a safe zone. It maybe challenging partitioning but much easier than dominating a whole country. It’s a good point you make.

dan
dan
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

I’m sure the Taliban would agree to that. NOT! They want the West out of the entire country. That’s what they’ve been fighting for.

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

It’s too late for that unfortunately.

Guest
Guest
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

So all the educated people who can construct and articulate an argument , within a Islamic context, for civic freedoms, universal education in Afghanistan should leave Afghanistan ?
A) Wouldn’t that be inadvertently aiding the hardline Taliban agenda for those that didn’t flee.
B) Wouldn’t that be creating all certainties for another failed state.

I’m not trying to suggest it would be easy for them to stay, far from it, but it’s their fight for their own country, and who better knows their country than the Afghans themselves. So I have huge reservations in talking up such an exodus.

dan
dan
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

So you want Britain to take in 10s of thousands of Afghan women and girls?

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  dan

20,000 ? yes i’m comfortable with that.

Bluemoonday
Bluemoonday
1 day ago
Reply to  David Steeper

As am I.

I also wonder what those who served their think?

If we wash our hands of these people then we all know what will happen to them.

Some of the comments made on this site towards the fate of these people are disgraceful and their authors should be ashamed.

No one should expect us to save the whole world, but these people and their families trusted us and tried to help.

I believe they deserve our compassion and help in return.

Nate M
Nate M
5 days ago
Reply to  dan

i am mean we’ve got Scotland and wales. might do some good to the local economy.

Nate M
Nate M
5 days ago
Reply to  Jack

women- rape, abuse, no human rights, ptsd, no education.

children- child labour, no education, lack of food, paedophilia (possibly), abuse, ptsd.

Frank62
Frank62
4 days ago
Reply to  Nate M

And boys conscrpted into the Taliban.

Rob
Rob
6 days ago

There is an awful lot of deflection and passing on the buck going on. The US President is blaming the ANA but the ANA has suffered 70,000 dead so they aren’t the cowards he makes them out to be.

The Brits are blaming the Americans but that isn’t fair or true. We could have stayed with non US allies, we could have evacuated all these people months ago and we could have done far more to influence the US decisions.

Overall it is a cluster and there was a time when a Government resigned when they lost a war.

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Victory has a thousand fathers. Defeat is an orphan.

Rob
Rob
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

True. Meanwhile whilst our soldiers were brilliant some of the decisions by the brass which were awful are going to be ignored. It wasn’t just the politicians, a few generals were pretty manure too.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

The generals in the UK were too busy working out their EDI policy to get involved in the strategy of tactics of war…be fair 😉

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Sad but true. It’s always the way the people at the top in or out of uniform ‘flip’ up and the people at the bottom pay the price.

Last edited 6 days ago by David Steeper
Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

The west really needs to look at itself, if you consider western Liberal democracy to be its own unique form of empire ( western national interdependence makes western democracies close to a lose geopolitical entity). Then we can see it’s entering what is potentially that state where complacency and a steady inward view, marks the being of the decline.

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hope your wrong fear your right. We must be willing to fight for our values as well as argue for them. If not then China is the future !

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Well said. The west has turned liberal democracy into a god. That’s the error.

farouk
farouk
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Rob wrote: we could have evacuated all these people months ago and we could have done far more to influence the US decisions. Rob The Afghan army took over the defence of the country in 2014 after the vast majority of NATO nations ended combat missions. This they had no problem doing until Biden ended air support. As for influencing the US. From 2010 to 2016 it was Cameron opposite him was Obama, who wasn’t that keen on the Uk. Cameron was replaced by May in 2016 (who wasn’t that keen on the Uk either) and she sat opposite Obama… Read more »

Rob
Rob
6 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Farouk,
Yes Trump & now Biden negotiated and kept to a unilateral exit from Afgn. That was 18 months ago. We could have built a coalition to remain, we could have evacuated everyone during that time, we could have done many many things during that time but did absolutely nothing. It’s a disgrace.

dan
dan
6 days ago
Reply to  farouk

Biden is an idiot that probably sleeps most of the time. He’s an angry old man now. Just look at him.

Sjb1968
Sjb1968
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Rob, we and the rest of NATO wholeheartedly backed the US in the invasion of Afghanistan but the way they have managed leaving is a humiliation for us all and is serious blow to the West’s prestige, influence and the deterrent effect of our military. The buck ultimately stops with them. As for us staying on with a few other countries that doesn’t reflect reality. Whilst NATO ground forces have not been engaged seriously since 2014, the ANA relied on air power and logistic support from the US. Where would the manpower and aircraft come from without the US. The… Read more »

dan
dan
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

It wasn’t even a war. A war is something like WW2 when the countries use their full might to win no matter what the cost. This was just another “conflict” that was done on the cheap with the least sacrifices to the Western countries involved. If they wanted to win they would have sent massive forces in there and reinstated the draft so everyone would have to do their part.

Rob
Rob
6 days ago
Reply to  dan

It was a war. When people kill each other in groups it’s a war. The Taliban are in charge now so, and I hate this fact, we lost. To deny that is to deny reality.

We must recognise this and increase defence spending, increase capability and increase our political influence. Denial is surrender.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Also we need to increase our will to Face our enemies at every level of state conflict. not just war but trade to foreign policy. its all the same fight. We just need to stop pretending we somehow live in a post history world without enemies.

Every steel works that closes in the west and opens in China is a lost battle.

Matt C
Matt C
6 days ago

If that doesn’t take the No Shit Sherlock award I’m not sure what does. The UN tried to do nation building on a budget and none of the clowns anyone has had for Pres/PMs in the last few decades have the leadership chops to pull such a feat off. The best way to deal with places like this is to wall em off like we do the Norks and perform a precision strike chevauchee any time they get too frisky.

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Matt C

To be fair to him he’s been saying this for a while. Most of the others only ‘realised’ it after the …. hit the fan.

Matt C
Matt C
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Fair play to him then.

Airborne
Airborne
6 days ago

Correct, once AQ had been pushed back out of Afghan then we should have been gone by latest early 2004. However we didnt and we are where we are. But im not going to be one of those who state that it wasnt worth the loss of lives, injuries and effort by uk forces, no way. Of course it was worth it, we are professionals in our/your respective trade and we go to the war that we are told to, and face the enemy that presents themselves. Not one of my lads (at least in public) ever thought we were… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Very nice comment and perfectly expressed. Best comment I have read today,

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Yes it’s a far superior comment than your UK bankrupt nonsense.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

Some people will always resort to personal attacks. Your comments speaks volumes about you that’s all I shall say.

Airborne
Airborne
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Appreciate your response many thanks.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

No problem Airborne. Your post made me reflect on a number of important points you raised so I really enjoyed reading it.

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Thats is the one comment on this thread that is well said AB as it should be with your experience, this article has certainly bought out a fair amount of morons.

Last edited 6 days ago by dave12
Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

I think you need to consider your own comments Dave. I may disagree with people’s comments and I wouldn’t call them morons. Indeed I’m sure you are an intelligent person so I would urge you to temper your insults as they don’t reflect well upon you.

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Fair enough I retract the insult.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

Thanks Dave. Discussions can sometimes get heated as we all get passionate about things that mean something to us, I read your comments and I agree with some points where you have made some good arguments. Anyway hope you have a good evening,

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Very true and was a heated comment by myself have a good evening.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

Thanks Dave hope we get to chat on this forum again. Have a great night.

Airborne
Airborne
6 days ago
Reply to  dave12

Cheers Dave, a subject close to my heart and where my experience lies I can waffle about aircraft carriers and ships and things but that’s as an interested layman, and I will always defer and doft my cap to the SMEs in their respective fields. Cheers mate.

Matt C
Matt C
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Well said.

Airborne
Airborne
6 days ago
Reply to  Matt C

Thanks Matt 👍

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Airborne knoweth. As he was there.

Respect. As always.

Airborne
Airborne
6 days ago

Mate you are to kind! It’s just an observation and an opinion but cheers.

Klonkie
Klonkie
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

This is the most intelligent commentary I’ve seen on this situation, and well articulated! I’m no expert on this, but it did feel like “mission scope creep” going beyond the defeat of AQ . Thanks for your thoughts and service Airborne.

Airborne
Airborne
5 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Your far to kind klonkie but many thanks.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

That was very well said AB.

Deepest respect and gratitude for your service.

Best CR

Airborne
Airborne
5 days ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Respect brother many thanks

Jaralodo
Jaralodo
6 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Thank you for your service, Airborne. Know that we appreciate you in the States

Airborne
Airborne
5 days ago
Reply to  Jaralodo

You guys are far to kind but much appreciated and regards to yourself and all our overseas cousins!

Daveyb
Daveyb
5 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

I couldn’t agree more. Bravo brother!

Last edited 5 days ago by Daveyb
Airborne
Airborne
5 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

I thought you may be thinking along these lines Davey, cheers.

Trevor G
Trevor G
6 days ago

The headline is a false proposition: the point being that we never did defeat the Taliban. They melted back into their heartlands and waited for us to get tired and leave. I would guess it took longer than they expected, but it was a winning strategy in the end.

dave12
dave12
6 days ago
Reply to  Trevor G

NATO had the watches the Taliban had the time,,,, Pakistan has a big part in the Taliban success as well.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 days ago

And I agree with him!!!

dan
dan
6 days ago

We keep electing corrupt idiots to office and this will happen again. Guaranteed.

Klonkie
Klonkie
6 days ago

Much of the is mess is squarely the fault of Pakistan. They have much to answer for. Ever wonder how the Taliban opium trade flourished over the last 20 year. Or how they acquired the means to buy weapons?. Now the Pakistan authorities have the gall to bemoan their lot , being concerned about the afghan border As for as the refugee question, other wealthy countries need to step up to shoulder the burden. I don’t see Gulf oil states (Saudi Arabia) sticking up their hands to help. China and Japan need to take up their quote and then some.… Read more »

Daveyb
Daveyb
5 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

The neighbouring Chinese province of Xinjiang has had its fair share of so called terrorist incidents over the last 10 years (one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, so the saying goes). However, China has massively shut down peoples (Uighars) freedom of movement in the province. They have also swamped the area with troops, something the West could never do. Perhaps viewed as human rights violations, they have also stopped large mosque gatherings. But on the back of this they have invested very heavily in the area, with lots of new towns, infrastructure and rail networks. However, they are… Read more »

klonkie
klonkie
3 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

I’m liking your evaluation – in particular your comment “What was the real reason for the meeting? Was it to tell the Taliban if they get involved in Xinjiang or the groups operating there, there would be repercussions or were they spurring on the Taliban to take back the country and laying the foundations for trade?”

Andrew D
Andrew D
6 days ago

Don’t think we should of ever had stay in Aghanistan once we got the top dog’s out the picture.However there is 30 country’s in NATO ,sure we could of held on with out the USA.know I going back but if the UK still had the numbers of the 80s ,maybe we could of done on our own. What do you Guys think ?

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
6 days ago

Agree. But perhaps the biggest mistake was the distraction of Iraq/WMD. No terrorists were rooted there nor any WMD. The sheer effort of that war and occupation took away vital resources that could and should have been put to use in Afghanistan. That war was a futile waste of blood and treasure, based upon a neo- con lie of weapons of mass destruction poised to hit the west. The actual nationality of the hijackers who flew the planes into the World Trade Centre was Saudi, Saudi money financed them, as it financed ISIS, and the Taliban. Oddly, there seemed to… Read more »

Last edited 6 days ago by Posse Comitatus
Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
6 days ago

Wow lots of view points here. My 2 cents worth are show me a refugee that if given the chance will not work hard pay into the system and be grateful everyday of there life. 99% are like that. Israel a country built completely by refugees isn’t some poor struggling place. Because people that are willing to give up everything and leave all they know will always try to work hard. If we need housing we should build housing. 20-30 year waiting lists for council housing for folks already here. This should of been dealt with in the 80s but… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
5 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Yes, lots of views to take in here and a good read.My two cents worth here too and I don’t mean to be flippant in any way with the dire situation for many going on now in Afghanistan. With all the tv and media going on there is now surely a lots of video coverage as to who these Taliban men exactly are as they seem to be so out in the open now. That must have some intel value. Let’s hope they treat their fellow people with some decency, human rights and freedoms and not brutalise people, especially women… Read more »

Peter tattersll
Peter tattersll
6 days ago

Pathetic headline defeat the Taliban how ? Beat them more would arrive within a few years

peter french
peter french
5 days ago

First up Mr Lewis as are others exercising total hindsight and secondly WE didnt defeat the Taliban any number of Nations principally the USA defeated the Taliban or rather kept them in check
So the article is spurious

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Julian Lewis is right of course and I’ve no doubt that in the Trump deal the Taliban understand that its down to them to root out Al Queda or else the US will come back and do it for them.
Biden must have been listening to my grandmother. She used to say, you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. If the Afghans want a western society they need to sort themselves out.

Mike Emmett
Mike Emmett
5 days ago

Seems strange that we are told we are a bankrupt country yet we can still find billions to give out in foreign aid.

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
5 days ago

UK should have withdrawn from Afghanistan “as soon as it defeating Taliban” Seriously … who writes this drivel?

Rob
Rob
21 minutes ago

My opinion. The UK followed the US because we are or have been great partners. We work together hand in glove – usually. This cataclysmic event is unfortunate and it was avoidable to say the least, and hopefully we can really learn from this. The US has different interests to the UK, it’s foolish to expect them to ignore their interests to suit us. This means we need to be vigilant the next time we are asked to commit to a long war and determine when our exit plan shall execute. Not the US plan, it’s our (UK) responsibility to… Read more »