Unmanned ‘force multipliers’ resulting from the Tempest programme might find their way onto the Queen Elizabeth class carriers, it has emerged.

Lord West of Spithead recently asked in a written question:

“To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Ministry of Defence intends the Tempest programme to produce a carrier-capable solution.”

Earl Howe, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, replied:

“The F-35 is at the beginning of its service life and is the most effective and developed aircraft capable of Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carrier operations.

The combat air acquisition programme is looking at the replacement of Typhoon’s capabilities and any new combat air system will need to be interoperable with the Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) programme.

The concept phase of the acquisition programme will consider QEC basing for any unmanned force multipliers which may form part of the future combat air system.”

A key talking point surrounding the Tempest programme has been the ability to deploy and manage air launched ‘swarming’ Unmanned Air Vehicles through a flexible payload bay allows the system to address dangerous Anti-Access Area Denial environments.
In the US, Phase III of a programme that will see C-130 aircraft drop drone swarms has now started according to reports.
Concept imagery of Tempest dropping drones via BAE.

The US Air Force Chief Scientist in 2017 said that F-35 pilots will be able to control a small group of drones flying nearby from the aircraft cockpit in the air, performing sensing, reconnaissance and targeting functions.

With whatever results from Tempest being able to use swarming technology to control drones and the F-35 becoming capable of doing so, it is only logical that capability will come into use.

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captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

Well That’s as clear as Mud then.

Evan P
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Evan P

That’s what I was thinking, they are amazingly good at writing lots about the topic without leaving you with any idea of what the answer to the original question is.

Andrew
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Andrew

?? indeed

Robert Blay
Guest

Sir Humphrey provides some of the best written and balanced articles on UK defence today. His experience gives an exellent insite to today’s defence matters.

Robert Blay
Guest

And yes I do know you mean the yes minister character.

andyreeves
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andyreeves

tempest? type 31? will they even happen? i have my doubts now

andyreeves
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andyreeves

force multiplier? would that make Q.E look like an aircraft carrier with a decent size air wing?

Mr Anderson
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Mr Anderson

How will 24 F35 plus about a dozen rotary aircraft not be a decent size?

maurice10
Guest

QE Class will see huge technological changes before their decommissioning, and I’m sure drones of all shapes and sizes will be deployed from them. Current close in vessel protection is adequate at the moment, but I fear new anti-ship missile systems could render them obsolete soon than we may think. I’ve always thought that a ‘net’ system to establish a 180-degree physical dome shield, would be the ultimate protection. Maybe drone swarms could be one way to achieve that level of protection???

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I have not a clue about such things.

But I have wondered before if a system similar to Tanks extra skirt armour that prematurely detonate incoming shells be applicable to a ship? Even plausable?

Indeed like a net that is passive and intercepts incoming. Or would ASMs simply punch through such a device?

Shoot me down folks.

maurice10
Guest

Would they punch through if they detected on contact? If the drone net was deployed say two hundred yards out from the vessel, that may just enable the target to suffer less serious damage? What I’m suggesting is a modern-day barrage balloon. (or balloons)

Ulya
Guest
Ulya

Older style anti carrier missiles where bigger and aimed for the side of ships so your tank skirts might have works with normal warheads, but the plan was to use nuclear warheads during war. Modern missiles are smaller, faster, more manoueuvrable and better AI, they aim for the flight deck, thinking being sinking a carrier is to hard without a nuclear warhead, disrupting flight operations for days is easier without going to a nuke option

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Yes dont modern missiles have more of a from above attack profile as opposed to side on?

Fire a huge net upwards that tangles it??!

Ulya
Guest
Ulya

I really like your net idea Daniele, but I do have to agree with Rear Gunner. In theory the escorts should be able to deal with any missile threat, but that is why folks are designing missiles with multiple decoys, variable attack profiles, hypersonic etc, basically too many targets traveling faster than escorts can react. Thats the theory anyway. The next few years should see some very interesting developments as limitations are being removed and technology matures

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Daniele, when you are talking about a supersonic Heavyweight ASM,it’s got so much potential and kinetic energy involved any close in system is not going to be able to prevent a mission kill. Imagine a 3000kg missile travelling at 1400ms, which is I believe would have somewhere in the region of 2.9 to the power 9 Jules of kinetic energy, which is unstoppable when looking at it from physically stopping it point of view. Which is why diverting it from its path or killing at significant distance is the only way.

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Hi Jonathan.

Thank you. Makes sense.

DaveyB
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DaveyB

I’ve always thought a Trimaran would be the ideal hull form for a ship. As the outer hulls would be more sacrificial buoyancy aids. Bit like the old battleship use of separated armour interspersed with cabins to maintain the integrity of the most important parts of the ship.

Steve Taylor
Guest

No. You have trouble with all sorts of things. Growth margins. Top weight. Structural strength. Volume. Shape….

maurice10
Guest

Your idea Daniele of an outer hull fitted with reactive armour could be one way to deal with torpedoes? The added weight could be detrimental to performance. What may be one answer, is not drones but electronic blocking that would create an impregnable shield?

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

It’s just throwing my idea out there.

Naval types I’m sure will dismantle it.

Isn’t electronic blocking part of the EW and ESM suite of vessels anyway, or is that all comms related?

That shield idea sounds more like Cyber, much of which is classified so who knows what capabilities may exist?

Can an ASM be downed purely by direct interference rather than fooled by chaff, manouvere, CIWS, etc?

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

I’d say current close in weapons systems are already largely obsolete against modern ASMs. They are really there to defend against low end asymmetric threats like FAIC or terrorist actions when entering/leaving port. Why? Because of the speed and/or maneuverability of modern ASM. Consider a Mach 3 missile. Its traveling at ~1km/second. Even if that missile is successfully intercepted at 1km out from the ship you’re still likely to be hit with debris traveling at extremely high speed one second later, potentially shredding radars, sensors and comms and taking the ship out of the action. If that same missile is… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Yes the energy invoved is actually a bit beyond what you can easily picture. the potential energy in the warheads on these missiles seem almost a waste of effort when you look at the kinetic energy involved. KE = mass x velocity squared, this means the kinetic energy is just insane if you use a Brahmos published figures: brahmos kinetic energy (assuming 600kg use of fuel) = 3000kg x ( 1400ms x 1400ms ) = 3000 x 1960,000 =5,880,000,000 Kg,m2/s2 (joules) Compare that to the kinetic energy of an intercity 125 (470 tonnes) doing 125 miles an hour = 470000kg… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Sobering when it’s described like that.

The equation is all double Dutch to me but never mind!

Short answer you’re screwed save shooting down or it missing.

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

The way to deal with hypersonics is of course to take them out well before they are anywhere close to a ship. Easier said than done though. In the absence of AEW, the radar horizon on a sea skimmer is going to be about 30-35 km, so that 30 second window to respond to a Mach 3 missile before being hit is in reality much shorter. Mach 6 is pretty sobering. The window is actually worse than ~30 seconds because its reduced by the time taken detecting/confirming the threat (no rabbit-in-the-headlights time allowed), launching the counter weapon and having the… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

Where’s that edit button when you need it. I kept using “hypersonic” when I should have used “supersonic” in the above post. So “supersonics” are at Mach 3+ in the example, not “hypersonics” which would be Mach 5+. Hypersonics, whether cruise missiles or particularly Hypersonic Glide Vehicles, will be more challenging to counter.

Geoffrey Hicking
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Geoffrey Hicking

“Earl Howe, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, replied…”

Its good to see a Howe involved in Defence. just like old times.

keithdwat
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keithdwat

Send him down to sort out Gibraltar, runs in the family!
I assume its the same family Earl Howe!

Spyinthesky
Guest
Spyinthesky

I only know Eddie pretty big cheese in Bournemouth I hear.

Andy
Guest

For those following my petition, we struck gold over the weekend Some of my emails / letters have go through to the right people and been shared. 7000 have signed since thursday and on Sunday it was the 3rd biggest trending petition with 4500 sign. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235377 Almost at the 1st target of 10,000 which gets a Govt response – so watch this space. When is gets there I’ll be writing to Gavin Williamson and Stuart Andrew ccing my local MP and Johnny Mercer from the Defence Select Committee setting out why I raised the petition and what answers I’m seeking… Read more »

Rob
Guest
Rob

signed, keep up the good work.

expat
Guest
expat

Andy, are proposing the order goes to a UK yard without a UK only competition. Once you remove competition you have to bend to the yards contractual demands not just cost but late delivery penalties could be removed. Very dangerous for the MoD imo. Whilst there’s the argument some cost comes back through taxes there’s no way for the MoD to get its hands on this meaning paying more for these ships leaves a hole in budget = cuts else where. Its a good cause but could have unintended consequences if not executed correctly.

Andy
Guest

Agreed. I understand entirely. In an ideal world there should be a competition as with type 31. The problem in the UK is that one part of government lands business with costs e.g. Business rates, apprentice levy, environment costs etc this forces prices up. Another part of government e.g. MOD can’t afford those high costs. MPs say we want a high wage economy and that means high tender costs. Ideally the treasury would increase funding to reflect this, but I won’t hold my breath. I will make this point in my letter. I work in a retail company so know… Read more »

expat
Guest
expat

Andy, thanks for explaining in more detail. I agree we need a high wage economy but it doesn’t need to mean high tender costs. I can buy a Nissan Qashqai built in the UK the same spec as a Korean built Kia Sportage for the same price, so the UK can be competitive. We need our shipbuilding industry to use these orders to make the same improvements and if you read Sir John Parkers report he makes these same recommendations. Also don’t take all the headline news at face value UK ship building is not collapsing any time soon, quick… Read more »

Glass Half Full
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Glass Half Full

Thanks for making this point … frequently!

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Ling since signed.

Spyinthesky
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Spyinthesky

Signed

Yardarms and Ratlines
Guest
Yardarms and Ratlines

In the short term, is it possible that uavs be utilised as additional aew assets from the QE class carriers, alongside the Crowsnest Merlins?

John Hampson
Guest
John Hampson

Is it valid to ask why bother with stealth when employing UAVs? The emissions from the mother aircraft, when communicating with the drones, will surely reveal its presence and location. If there are no communication emissions then the UAVs would be fully autonomous and a manned mother is not required. A cheaper, more robust, more capable Typhoon would perform just as well and be capable of carrying a great range of weapons.

expat
Guest
expat

Quantum entanglement communication and AI, both have possibilities in the life of QE (50 years) to solve this. Any doubt look how far computer and communications have come in the last 50 years.

captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

Yes yes yes but, Can they still take off and land without Cat’s and Trap’s ?????

huh, Huh ????

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Disc World ?

andyreeves
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andyreeves

won’t need to they’ll be in a thousand pieces in the water

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

Can ministers simply answer yes or no?

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

No.

Senior officers appearing in front of the DSC cannot answer truthfully either.

DaveyB
Guest
DaveyB

No news about the Italian Government being seriously P***ed off with the French and Germans, for excluding them from the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program. The Italian Government have said they want to join the Tempest program, as it stands a better chance of being produced and meeting their requirements.
So UK, Italy, possible Sweden and Japan could be part of the Tempest program, with these countries involved the Tempest could actually be a better product than the Franco-German effort!

expat
Guest
expat

Defensenews website posted an article on it.

Germany seems to be doing it up most to disrupt the Eurofighter program by blocking arms sales to Saudi putting the BAe sale in doubt.

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

You could probably add Canada to that list of countries based on how they are extending out-of-service date for their Hornets by buying used aircraft from Oz.

They are sorted out to 2031/2 at this point, apparently have no desire to buy anything from Boeing following the Bombardier fiasco and by the early 2030’s Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen will be looking a little long in the tooth for those that don’t already have them in the fleet. F35 would still be very relevant but its not primarily an air superiority fighter that Canada really requires for N.American defence.