Scottish fisheries vessel expels EU trawler from UK waters

If there had not been a 2014 referendum and we had not just come out of Europe and we were not dealing with a pandemic and the polls in Scotland were showing a two thirds majority in favour the UK would just draw up the terms and sign the deal. No more referendums anytime soon we would rather quell an uprising.

You wait until the Scottish People realise what SNP Separatism would lead to …
* A hard border between Scotland & England and all the paperwork it entails. England amounts to over 60% of Scottish Exports (the EU only 16%) and Passports needed to visit friends and family in the rest of the UK.
* A continuing hard border between Scotland and EU for at least 10 years, and would the Scots actually vote “yes” to return to the EU and give up their fishing industry to the French.
*No additional monies from the UK via the Barnett System. The current GERS figures show high levels of support to us Scots in 19-20, and that level of Support has been eye watering this year.
* The need to create a new Currency. The pound is for the UK. Even the Irish created their own currency when they left. Now way we can
* Mass Austerity – Scotland without the Barnett formula extra cash, with massivly increased costs: i.e. Pensions and Social Security; Oil is at its current low price and unlikely to rise to the heady heights of of the pre 2014 prices; a new untried Scottish currency, and an economy massively skewed to the public sector in comparison to the the rest of the UK. Where’s the tax revenue coming from? The Mythical English Whisky Tax the Nats think they’ll get.
* And an essentially talentless government made up of nationalist sheep like Ian Blackford, Pete Wishart, Margaret Ferrier and Mhairi “Kit Kat” Black.

The only good thing about it would be that after the first 5 hellish years of Independence, its likely that the Scottish Conservatives would be the next party elected to govern us. The idea that most scots are “socialist” is a myth.

* A hard border between Scotland & England and all the paperwork it entails. England amounts to over 60% of Scottish Exports (the EU only 16%) and Passports needed to visit friends and family in the rest of the UK.

Quite possibly, it would be a worthwhile price to get my EU citizenship back eventually.

* A continuing hard border between Scotland and EU for at least 10 years, and would the Scots actually vote “yes” to return to the EU and give up their fishing industry to the French.

No way to know if it would be ten years of a hard border between Scotland and the EU, Scotland would probably go down a similar path as the Ukraine in that respect as part of the accession process and allow Visa-less access for EU citizens and then look to join the EEA as a second step towards joining the single market and eventual EU accession.

*No additional monies from the UK via the Barnett System. The current GERS figures show high levels of support to us Scots in 19-20, and that level of Support has been eye watering this year.

There would need to be a financial settlement in both directions.

* The need to create a new Currency. The pound is for the UK. Even the Irish created their own currency when they left. Now way we can

Initially yes then I hope Scotland would join the Euro as soon as possible.

* Mass Austerity – Scotland without the Barnett formula extra cash, with massively increased costs: i.e. Pensions and Social Security; Oil is at its current low price and unlikely to rise to the heady heights of of the pre 2014 prices; a new untried Scottish currency, and an economy massively skewed to the public sector in comparison to the the rest of the UK. Where’s the tax revenue coming from? The Mythical English Whisky Tax the Nats think they’ll get.

Most of what you are saying is pure speculation and frankly we have just had a decade of austerity so what is new? There would undoubtedly be economic pain but it would be worth in the long term especially if it allows Scotland to re-join the EU and the Single Market.

* And an essentially talentless government made up of nationalist sheep like Ian Blackford, Pete Wishart, Margaret Ferrier and Mhairi “Kit Kat” Black.
The only good thing about it would be that after the first 5 hellish years of Independence, its likely that the Scottish Conservatives would be the next party elected to govern us. The idea that most scots are “socialist” is a myth.

I am no supporter of the SNP but they are operating in a modern Parliament with modern procedures after being elected with a fit for purpose modern electoral system. There are capable SNP members and ones who are not…they are lightyears ahead of the current Tory Government nevertheless!

I am not a raging Scot Nat, I’m an Englishman who lives in Scotland and would have voted No in 2014 if I had been resident then* but now due to what has happened since and especially because of Brexit is prepared to switch my vote to Yes and accept the consequences.

*I moved to Scotland in 2014 a month after the referendum.

Fedaykin

I can read that your wish to remain an EU citizen is passionate and genuine – but it should not be achieved at the economic detriment of myself and fellow Scots!

I think some of your “manifesto” is highly questionable.

SNP supporters are not Europhiles, they’re only kidding you on!

Scotland will not be back in the EU anytime soon – either as part of the UK, or as an independent state.

“I think some of your “manifesto” is highly questionable.
SNP supporters are not Europhiles, they’re only kidding you on!”

I am not an SNP member or supporter, as I have mentioned before here I am a card carrying member of the Liberal Democrats…the most pro EU party in the country.

“Scotland will not be back in the EU anytime soon – either as part of the UK, or as an independent state.”

Well from my position I hope you are wrong about that…

Like Fedaykin, I’m not woad wearing FREEDUMMMM fighter but when I read the list of woes that get presented when Scottish indy gets mentioned I can understand why it gets so many peoples backs up.

Do you think that Scotland would somehow be uniquely unable to manage their own affairs ?? Did you believe the tales of woe that the media were telling us about the UK leaving the EU ???

I don’t want Scottish independence and I didn’t want to leave the EU. I’m sure that the UK will manage fine outside the EU and while I have more concerns about an indy Scotland, it will roll along too. My big concern is the finances but big picture, there are plenty other wee countries out there that manage, no reason why Scotland wouldn’t be one too. We still don’t know how leaving the EU will affect UK finances either for that matter….

The Separatists love to tell us about the land of milk of honey we’ll live in when Scotland leaves the UK, I like to point out the realities of this.

Which part of the what I said was wrong?
* The Hard Border between England and Scotland?
* The loss of Barnett Consequentials?
* Scotland’s current deficit?
* The difficulty we’d have to meet the 3% deficit target to get join the Euro and get back into Europe.

I’m sorry that hearing about hard realities of what Scottish separatism really means, gets your back up, but I feel that the separatist narrative needs to be challenged. Part of their modus operandi is to join areas such as this and spread their propaganda.

And Have a look at Fedaykins other posts on this? For someone who is not a Nationalist he doesn’t half go on about it.

If you look at my answer at no point did I say it would be milk and honey but I did point out that I wasn’t bothered about some of your ‘negatives’ and I saw the rest as pure speculation. I made it clear that I see real challenges in the concept. I at least took the time to respond point by point.

“Part of their modus operandi is to join areas such as this and spread their propaganda.”

Projection, I participate on this site primarily to comment on defence related matters. I would strongly argue that you are also spreading propaganda in your responses, at least have some self awareness please! Funnily I spend a fair amount of my time on social media defending this website from Scotnats who think UK Defence journal is a mouth piece for Unionism or a cover for the 77th Brigade (don’t ask)

As for going on about it…I’m in the mood for it today. In the end this is an imperfect medium to debate these matters and it can easily make somebody who feels strongly about a matter sound like a raving madman. I assure you I am not an SNP Scot Nat ultra but I am pro Scot Indy and supporter of EU membership.

I never said you mentioned the “land of milk and honey” — that was a comment in general about the lies of the SNP.

I primarily use this site to learn about and discuss military matters. But I see it as my duty to challenge Scottish Nationalism when I see it as as so many in Scotland have been cowed by Cybernat bullying. (For the record – I am not accusing you of that.) Why? Because Nationalists are trying to make it seem like what they say is the will of the Scottish people. Cue Ian Blackford weekly in Parliament banging on about his opinions as the will of the Scottish People. I want to let the other readers of the forum know that not all Scots want to rip the Union the apart, that many Scots despise the SNP and their lies, and that the SNP has attempted to steal the position of many No Voting Remainers to justify their lunatic Seperatist venture, while ignoring that over 1 million Scots voted to Leave the EU (a number which is only about 30,000 votes short of the number of votes the SNP got in the last Scottish Election.)

You may not be a SNP Scot-Nat Ultra, but comments like “You wait and see how things start to pan out after the upcoming Scottish Elections…” certainly make sound you like one.

As one of the million or so Scots who voted to leave the EU, and who stopped voting Lib Dem in Westminster elections due to their Pro-EU stance, I’m glad we’re finally out. And I’ll fight like hell to stop the UK, and if necessary a newly independent Scotland, from ever joining it again.

“As one of the million or so Scots who voted to leave the EU, and who stopped voting Lib Dem in Westminster elections due to their Pro-EU stance, I’m glad we’re finally out. And I’ll fight like hell to stop the UK, and if necessary a newly independent Scotland, from ever joining it again.”

Well that is your democratic right but I do ask when you do commence that fight to stay in the Union and prevent rejoining the EU with perfectly reasonable passion you will take a pause to understand why people like myself who are passionately pro-EU feel the need to fight hard to get back into the European Union and regain the rights that we feel has been stolen from us and those Remainers who live in Scotland regard Scot Indy as the fastest path towards that.

If people want to keep conversation military only then may I suggest that taking swipes (however joking) you think it to be about the EU or Scottish Independence is only going to illicit a response from those who disagree with you.

Now please lets have an Armistice on this matter!

You do know that in terms of trade and movement of people, the UK matters a hell of a lot more than the EU to business and people in Scotland.

I have a heck of a lot more family and friends in England, Wales and NI than in Europe. As an Englishman, I assume you do too.

But yes, Armistice.

Andy, regardless of the merits (or otherwise) of an independent Scotland I personally cannot foresee any circumstances where the UK population as a whole will want to put this proposition back on the table. This might be upsetting for some Scots but this is the reality. Referendums produce division and hatred and everyone has had their fill of that. No good can come of it. The Scots have control of almost everything other than defence and foreign policy they need to be content with that whilst we all heal from Brexit.

Mark B, for better or worse, Scottish independence isn’t down to the UK population, its down to the people of Scotland, to suggest otherwise is supremely arrogant.

Using extreme numbers to make a point but if 90% of Scots voted for a party that said “vote for us for independence” then it would be hard to ignore. A Westminster government that did ignore it would just be building up more resentment and desire for independence.

This isn’t something I want but I fear its going to happen. BoJo can say NO as and when the SNP romp the next Scottish Parlie elections (no credible opposition unfortunately), it might not cause that big a ripple as he’s already said he’d say no and its a once in a generation thing but the time after that will probably be more contentious, more so if the numbers (even if its just a percentage of those who did vote as opposed to the whole country) suggest a willingness for independence. I’m not sure BoJo cares much about what comes after him, only on ‘his watch’ and whoever comes after him ends up in a position where the demand for a ‘legal’ vote is overwhelming. We’ll get what we get I suppose.

In practice though Andy you must accept that you need a UK Government sympathetic to the idea of yet another referendum when the population is fed up to the back teeth of them. To put it in a manifesto would be suicidal. For MPs to vote for one especially in a marginal constituency would be folly.

Yes I agree the Scots can make a lot of noise but as neither of the main parties have anything to gain by associating themselves with such a move it is difficult to see how to move forward.

That said if the Scots were to take a less hostile tone giving cast iron guarantees over defence, pay for the transition, divvy up the debt costs etc. and get a good indication that two thirds of Scots would support it – perhaps it could be achieved. It might even be possible without the need for a divisive referendum.

Is it really arrogant for the sovereign parliament of this union to point out that a vocal but important minority have had their say recently and said “No” and it is now time to turn our attention to other matters which affect us all?

We should move on unless you can see any other alternatives?

Mark B, You don’t seem to get my point on this. To try and give an analogy, if the EU had said that the UK couldn’t leave unilaterally I’m sure there would be a few folk with something to say about it. Its the same with Scottish independence. If the SNP get in with over 50% of the votes they will see this as a mandate to push for another referendum (they’ll probably do it anyway with less than 50% of the votes but the most seats). You can’t fault the logic, all they’ll be saying is there is grounds for another referendum. Folk might be fed up with them but we’ve gone down this route before, its now a recognised way to do it. The SNP don’t give a crap about the dotting the I’s on who gets this or pays for that, like anything else that people throw themselves into it becomes ‘personal’ and getting independence will be ‘winning’. The fall out can be dealt with later….. that for me is the most frightening part of it all but others will see it differently.

And yes, it is arrogant to deny self determination because it doesn’t suit you. Like I said, I don’t think you ‘get it’.

Andy until 2007 and the Lisbon Treaty there was no mechanism to leave the EU. Whilst as a sovereign parliament we could have revoked the appropriate legislation and break international treaties that would have been problematic and would have lost us friends worldwide. I doubt the population would have supported it. When Catalonia declared UDI the world supported Spain and would not recognise Catalonia. The reason is obvious – the vast majority of Countries have autonomous states or regions or even Countries. Florida or Texas could not leave the Union it would be unthinkable and the same goes around the world. Long running civil wars have started for less.

For Scotland a one-time opportunity was opened up in theory to clear the air. It caused more problems than it solved and many Scots believe that merely by having a majority support in the Scottish parliament that door will open again. What I am saying is that Scots should brace themselves for the strong possibility that successive UK Governments will continue to say “not now” maybe in 30-40 years.

I totally understand that in Scotland the support for an independent country might grow past 50% however you will need to persuade the UK Government to back that or it is all in vain.

Andy I perfectly well understand & respect your point please respect mine. Let’s say it is 2022 an SNP majority parliament is in place (55%) a request for a referendum is declined. What next? UDI? Civil war? Is this seriously a direction the Scots wish to head in?

Please don’t get me wrong. I can see an independent Scotland in the future but one built on more positive cooperation. It would be the simplest and quickest approach.

An independent Scotland isn’t something I crave Mark, just putting that out there for starters. I’d be delighted if the current ‘Dear Leader’ and the previous title holder implode the party in the latest round of ‘Eck-gate’ but I can’t see it. I get the fear that Scotland will leave the UK, not for any ideological reasons but for the practical ones like finance etc but I didn’t want to leave the EU for similar reasons, we did though. From a selfish perspective I reckon we’d be alright in an indy Alba but plenty wouldn’t I fear. There really is no credible opposition in the Parlie though, that’s a big part of why I feel its going to happen, the best thing that could happen to Scottish politics is a REMAIN Party. Because the largest party in Scotland have a pretty one track agenda, independence is constantly pushed, it permeates the news etc much more than it should and goes largely unchallenged, along with the SNP’s numerous ‘little hiccups’ on drug death, the decline in education and their showpiece bridge that has to shut when its icy (never happens in Scotland of course….).

What I’m saying is that people are people and not always logical or fair, we’re a bunch of selfish dicks really. What you say is perfectly logical but doesn’t factor in that ‘people thing’. While a UK government ‘could’ consistently say NAW that will in all likelihood increase that 45-55% to 75% and that’s kind of hard to deny. If a Westminster political party see themselves as democratic and fair then its hard to hold onto that while a sizeable group of a nation are saying they want to leave. You can toss in whatever argument or point of principal you like, its not going to matter. There’s also the PR side of it, if (again for example) the SNP refused to take their seats in Westminster then it makes whatever government look oppressive, plenty countries around the world will be on that like a tramp on chips.

BoJo has said he’s going to say NAW and personally, I’d say that’s fair enough, the last referendum was recent enough but in (for example) another 5 year time, say the Scottish Parlie elections after this lot then we’re looking at 11 years and while maybe not quite a generation its a long enough gap that plenty will be able to say that vote is now irrelevant, especially if things are going the SNP’s way. If those evil English have refused to let Scotland have the referendum then its going to feed off itself.

That ‘people thing’ is maybe where we see things differently.

I have to say that I am perfectly happy with an independent Scotland if done in an amiable way but would resist parting on bad terms as it cannot be good for anyone. I would not be surprised if that were a common viewpoint either side of the border. .

The people thing is interesting. People are by their very nature very tribal. For instance in the US people are firmly Democrat or Republican it is almost like it is in their DNA and they will come out and support their party. Donald however found out on Wednesday that votes will not translate in action if it comes up against a persons natural instinct for what is right and wrong.In the following months and maybe years Donald might have to face some consequences and the world might have to ensure democracy is not squeezed out in the rush for Government by social media.

The British are by their nature quite friendly yet when threatened stand their ground regardless. I suggest that next time the Scots want to have a go at independence they put a well thought out generous and friendly deal together which ensures our mutual defence & prosperity and the Scots might actually get a friendly response. Too much to hope for eh?

Mark B, I’ve no idea if you’re on the wind up or just a bit ‘blinkered’.

I like a good wind up but not today. The fact is that Scotland is not a priority anywhere other than Scotland. We have other fish to fry. No distractions permitted. If that is blinkered then what am I missing?

Ah, gotcha, just blinkered then. Fair enough.

???

Just a wee note of clarification. The majority of those who voted in the motherland voted to remain ‘‘tis true but only from a 67% turnout., about 1.5 million as opposed to a million who wanted out. That’s not the same as your statement that the majority of Scots who live here wanted to stay in the EU as unless they all could vote you just can’t make that claim.

The last GE 1.2 million voted for the Scottish nationalist party. I think you will find when Joe public realise the sky hasn’t fallen in on them now we are free from the racket that is the Eu even less folks will be bothered about trying to rejoin.

Looking forward to Mr Salmonds revenge against those who took his legs from him?

The only union that matters is Great Britain and NI ??????????? And since it is the “Blueprint” nobody or nothing can ever destroy it ??

Well said, from a Scotsman not an English….er, interloper….The most vocal always seem to be the most recently converted. Stay safe LP Chicken.

Bravo Artist, bravo.

By Toutatis!

Ha ha I’m a jock mind so excuse my ignorance but I don’t use Latin or foreign lingo like Gaelic ? I could google but you can tell me By toutatis ? I can honestly say that’s a new one on me man ?

???????????

Oh and a i’ll Just add to my earlier post a wee tit bit of further info for my fellow Brits who owing to them being from the south are sometimes a wee bity less informed (not yourself Daniele ?) but the people of Scotland care more about the issue of the Union here in the U.K. than the issue of the union with the EU as clearly demonstrated for all to see with the turnout of 84.6% for Scot Indy vs the Eu ref of 67%

It can all be summed up by the legend that is Rab C Nesbit

‘We started goin in tae pubs together, then we went on tae secondary school”

???????????

Mate, sorry.

You said “Joe public realise the sky hasn’t fallen in on them”

Well it reminded me of the Asterix books where the Gauls were terrified of the sky falling on their heads! And “By Toutatis” was a well used Gaulish catchphrase.

Toutatis was a Celtic deity worshipped in Gaul and Britain.

Ha ha ah yes Asterix I read all the books as a whippersnapper . Had forgotten all about it.?

Fedaykin

As a Scot, I also voted to remain in the EU during 2016.

However, your statement is misleading – or cannot be substantiated.

“Yes a majority of people who live in Scotland myself included wanted to stay in the EU“.

In the 2016 EU Referendum, from a Scottish Electorate of 4M ….1.7M voted to remain in the EU, 1M voted to leave – and 1.3M couldn’t even be bothered to vote!

There is no doubt that “remain” was the decisive sentiment of those Scots who voted. But turnout was well down on the 2014 independence referendum.

But we also know that of the full Scottish electorate in 2016 – only 43% voted to remain in the EU. Well short of the “62% of Scots” often misleadingly quoted by separatists.

It’s also believed that of the 1M Scots who voted to leave – 300, 000 were SNP supporters!

I just quote these figures to show that far from there being a mass of rock-hard support to remain in the EU – sentiment in Scotland is mixed and often apathetic, despite what Ms Sturgeon may claim.

The relationship that exercises Scots is the one with London – not that with distant Brussels, Paris and Berlin.

Best regards

Alan

I honestly don’t think it will matter how the vote goes to be honest Fedaykin, when people realise that their world hasn’t imploded post BREXIT and we pull out of Covid19 and really get into our stride, the craving for Indipendance and EU membership ( quite the odd juxtaposition that one) will naturally die back.

The SNP have whipped up quite the anti English sentiment, oh the mock outrage, Academy awards standard acting …. All credit to them, they learn from their past mistakes…

As Mr Trump has found out, you can’t keep that level of divisive politics going forever, it will burn out one day!

I personally believe our Union is stronger than divisive organisations…..

Just my personal take on it.

“I honestly don’t think it will matter how the vote goes to be honest Fedaykin, when people realise that there world hasn’t imploded post BREXIT and we pull out of Covid19 and really get into our stride, the craving for Indipendance and EU membership ( quite the odd juxtaposition that one) will naturally die back.”

I’m sorry but no it won’t the genie is out of the bottle now, the UK now ironically has one of the largest and most active Pro-EU movements in all of Europe, this is not going away. Many myself included will never forget or forgive being arbitrarily stripped of our EU citizenship and rights especially FoM. Also it will be long decline not implosion that is the result of Brexit.

My position on this matter is clear and I think I have said all that I can at this moment in time.

As an outside observer who would give Scotland another Indy ref, and who wouldn’t care less if they vote to leave the union, leave or join the EU or vote to move to the moon, Fedy, as a supposed Englishman living in Scotland, you do seem to be quite fanatical about the issue. So much so that your posts give the impression you seem to be what is so wrong with our country at this time. We have so much division, so much anger, that no one wants to see, or make an effort to understand the others position. I may be wrong, and your posts are giving the that impression,and in my experience the most recent converts are the most extreme. Cheers stay safe.

The seething anger I felt on the issue passed a few years back but I do feel strongly about the loss of my EU citizenship not only for myself but my whole family. I feel the country has gone in the wrong direction and like many Remainers deeply disenfranchised (yes I know Brexiteers felt disenfranchised about EU membership before someone brings that up). Four years of being told “You lost get over it…” rather than as you rightly point out any attempt to understand the viewpoint of those who are pro EU has only hardened my position. The attitude of Brexit supporters that Remainers must not only be silent about their EU support but also enthusiastically support leaving the EU or be seen to be unpatriotic only makes my responses harder, in a democracy I have a right be able to hold my position. As for Scotland I think it is in a different place now, maybe full Federalism is a possibility but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

Also as an outsider you were happy to call out me for my Pro EU position as a fanatic but made no mention of those who have made fanatical anti EU statements here…”EU Politburo” anybody sigh…

There is much wrong with our country at the moment and I don’t see that changing any time soon, unfortunately like the USA we are in a culture war at the moment. EU citizenship formed part of my identity, having that taken away then be told in effect to ‘Put up and shut up’ is going to colour my positions on such matters.

I have to admit that I never felt the same close confederancy with Europe, even though I was a 51-49 percenter for remain. We can still travel, work or live, we just need a visa. Same as the students who come here, workers etc. Why should an Indian brain surgeon, for example, have to jump through visa hoops, pay money, when a Romanian (for example) street beggar can get on a coach and be here in 24 hours? That to me can be deemed as totaly unfair, none inclusive, possibly deemed even racist and arrogant (let’s ensure white Europeans can come here easily but not others) as my wife is Lebanese so this is a bigger, subject past the arrogance of a comfy Europe scratching each others back, and ignoring the higher picture…………massive subject beyond the scope of our current conversation though mate. As for democracy, absolutely correct, we all have an opinion, and a voice. But we all seem so angry and so polarised at the moment that we seem to get angry as the default setting and isn’t it tiring. Cheers mate stay safe.

Well said Airborne and I would echo your sentiments, hope everyone stays safe and we all get the vaccine soon.

John I’m beginning to think you have shares in Pfizer ? ..you do don’t you you cheeky wee rascal ?

EU Politburo, I thought it was quite funny to be honest, sorry if I caused offence….

Fedaykin, I appreciate your position, absolutely you’re entitled to it, it’s a democracy after all and opposing views discussed in a civilized manner enrich the debate.

One of the things that made me deeply uncomfortable about the post BREXIT vote, was the very disturbing lack of loosers consent, the very bedrock of democracy.

The anti democratic moves to de-rail democracy have been highly subversive and saddening to see, more so as the driving force encompassed many MP’s!

They certainly paid a very high price for their high minded behaviour though…

I can honestly say that the vote gone the other way, I would have fully accepted it and cracked on.

It’s unfortunate that we see democracy under increasingly hostile attack the world over these days, Trump and his sickening antics are just the latest example, so very sad to see.

No problem, we all need to be a bit more sensitive to what we are saying and how it is perceived. I have lived and worked across the EU and find the narrative that it is some form of Empire building dictatorship by some tiresome.

I only have one thing more to say on this in relation to what you have just written:

“One of the things that made me deeply uncomfortable about the post BREXIT vote, was the very disturbing lack of loosers consent, the very bedrock of democracy.
The anti democratic moves to de-rail democracy have been highly subversive and saddening to see, more so as the driving force encompassed many MP’s!”

Losers consent does not mean the losers must whole heartedly support what has been voted for, those who oppose Brexit have every right to make their case. Also it was not anti-democratic to campaign to reverse the result of the previous referendum. It was 1) A non binding advisory referendum 2) The UK is a Sovereign Parliamentary democracy meaning Parliament can vote to reverse the results of any referendum 3) Remainers and Parliamentarians who supported Remain were campaigning for another referendum, there is nothing anti democratic in that. They were not acting in a subversive manner, they were acting through the democratic mechanisms available to them for a cause they regarded to be right.

In the end it is impossible for me to just ‘accept’ Brexit and ‘crack on’, me holding that position is not anti democratic, it is an exercise of my democratic rights.

Its been an interesting and well behaved debate on this, I’ve enjoyed it so thanks to everyone for playing nicely.

One thing I will say Fedaykin….

“ It was 1) A non binding advisory referendum 2) The UK is a Sovereign Parliamentary democracy meaning Parliament can vote to reverse the results of any referendum 3) Remainers and Parliamentarians who supported Remain were campaigning for another referendum, there is nothing anti democratic in that.”

Whether we should have had a referendum is a moot point now but as we did it would be a ballsy call to then go against it and as it turned out, the parties who did try an go against it were roundly beaten by a populist leader who played to it. Personally, the UK ‘had’ to leave the EU as that’s what us prols wanted (like yourself I’d rather have stayed but it is what it is) and anything else would be an affront to democracy. Now if political parties want to campaign to rejoin the EU that’s fair game (while making the whole leaving thing pretty futile and why we elect the bright folk to make these decisions for us) but when you give the plebs a YES/NO question it behoves government to act on it.

It really breaks down that simply for me but then I’m a simple soul anyway.

Actually- of all eligible voters in Scotland, about a third weren’t interested in the EU issue sufficiently to actually vote on it (lowest turnout of all Home Nations I believe). 2/3 of the 2/3 who bothered to vote supported ‘remain’, which means that less than half of the eligible vote was sufficiently supportive of ‘remain’ to bother casting a ballot. I don’t think the ‘don’t care as long as I can drink and watch the football’ is adequately represented in Scottish constitutional debates.

They’ve said they won’t veto them if they left the UK in cooperation with the UK Government. If they just broke away then Spain would veto them.

Only in the case they did a unilateral declaration of independence. If Scotland was given a legal referendum and voted to leave the UK, then Spain said they won’t stand in their way of joining the EU. It’s for the birds anyway, Scotland will never get a referendum

Quite right too. We had one already. Had enough of them!

You might, but up here in Scotland the enthusiasm for another referendum on the ‘matter’ is increasing.

While I’m coming from 20/20 hindsight, if there was a referendum now instead of 2014 the result might be different but you can’t keep having referendums until you get the ‘right answer. I remember having the debate on a football forum that IF the UK left the EU and someone like BoJo came into power then that should be the time for the SNP to have their election. You could argue that they made an arse of it by going for it when they did. Like I said, lots of hindsight there and who’d have thought we’d have left the EU AND BoJo but it circles back to not being right to keep having referendums until you get the answer you want.

Yes but you would need support from a large chunk of English, Welsh & Irish MPs. Can you seriously see any appetite for that?

It will happen eventually, especially when support in Scotland goes over 60% for independence. This question is not going away and the longer Westminster says no the more enthusiastic people in Scotland will be for independence.

I worked with an uber-seperatist just prior to the last referendum and he reckoned over two thirds of us would vote Yes.

He was hilariously wrong back then

Referendums cost Cameron his job. Who would want to open that can of worms again (either Labour or Conservative)? The Scottish support would need to be overwhelming surely – and the withdrawal agreement providing satisfactory attractive arrangements for defence etc. would need to be pre-approved and appealing to the British people. The Scots will need to win over the other three nations which means a complete shift in tone coming from the SNP and some pragmatic and friendly policies.

Is it? The only people I hear battering on about it are Uber Nats on social media and our now “nationalist compliant” media.

there are circumstances where it could happen, albeit 4 years. deadlock between labour and tories to form next government, labour make an alliance with SNP to form coalition or at least majority gov. SNP insist on indyref2 as part of this. it could have happened last year….4 years far more likely.

the more likely barriers are the lack of scottish national bank (barrier to EU ascension) and the huge debt scottish gov would have to take on with likely inferior credit ratings. scottish consumers would suffer.

That is pretty much the scenario I envisage, the SNP will request indy2 for a Confidence and Supply agreement. Labour would then state that is contingent on constitutional reform first with an Indy ref at the end of of that Government.

Scotland can have its referendum if there is a genuine ground swell towards it. In 5 years time. After Brexit implications are well known and understood. The SNP know damn well that if Brexit doesnt turn out to be a disaster and the UK economy does manage a strong bounce back post CV19 then their arguments for it will largely be eroded.
The SNP are never honest with the people of Scotland. So on that basis they are the same as the Brexiteers. Promising a nirvana but reality of an independent Scotland will be a very very hard wake up call to a newly independent Scotland. In 5 years time.if Scotland by a large majority still wants an indy2 ref then by all means go for it.

Surely 20-35 years at least Mr Bell. I just can’t see “referendum” and “Manifesto” getting together in the same sentence for any Westminster party likely to gain power until everyone has forgotten about Brexit can you?

Yaaaaaaaaaawn…..

Ha ha ha haaaaaaa chomp chomp chomp…..so easy, yet so amusing. Which hook should I use next?

Nicola has increased in popularity in Scotland because recently she has been acting like a leader mainly due to Covid. People like that. Thatcher vision of an ‘EU’ politburo outside the control of states is the exact reason why it will never happen. Not that an independent Scotland would ever join the EU.

Morning Fedaykin, a great bit of taking out of context there …..

I also mentioned the EU giving Scotland the bill for leaving the lights on …. Let’s not go loosing our sense of humour!

I’ve also previously mentioned English occupation of the Irn bru refinery, just for the record, I wasn’t being serious then either, I don’t want to get hauled in front of a clan meeting!

Irn bru tastes like shit mate….we don’t want it…just my simple, none binary, none offensive, all inclusive, caring and ozone friendly opinion, at this time. Now if we were talking whisky………..

You are probably right Harold, the SNP has a hard core of blinkered support like “Trump’s army”, certainly enough to whip up more howls of outrage against Westminster … Like I said earlier, look how that played out in the US eventually….

The SNP are a one trick pony, people will see through it eventually, you can’t keep that level of cross border ‘it’s all their fault’ going forever you know.

Still won’t make a jot of difference, no second referendum until 2040 at the earliest I should think.

By which time one of two things will have happened, the EU will have created the Superstate it’s been steadily working towards, or it will have imploded.

Just my opinion of course, others are available…..

Wow-that is a memory to cherish. You must be one of only a handful of humans to have set foot on that pinnacle. I remember the RN raised the Union Jack there in the 1950’s. In order to reinforce the UK’s claim it might be necessary to construct a small structure and house some Research staff therein!

Mount a Phalanx CIWS on a plinth….

Howsit going Daniele! The Phalanx might be enough to establish sovereignty! 🙂

Wet Cold and “orrible” here geoff.

Good morning my friend.

I suppose I should not tell you then, that it mainly sunny and 26 degrees here in Durban today Daniele? Pleasant if a little muggy 🙂

?…..? enjoy mate.

three of us took turns to be winched down, i was second. we were all ex-RN working for Marconi on an ASW trial, off RFA Fort Austen. Got some photos somewhere but it was pre mobile phone days, 1989-90 time

Wow that is a story for the grandkids-what an experience! Do you think there is enough room there for a permanent platform and could it be constructed to cope with the occasional swamping by large waves?

I remember that happening.

maybe an outboard engine to help her get by her top speed of 18 knots?

There a big difference between being armed and being a warship mate.

I bet there is….

Fedaykin

There is no consensus in Scotland about further powers being devolved from Westminster.

Westminster is the seat of Scottish governance (despite what the SNP call the Assembly in Edinburgh) and looking after reserved matters – with Holyrood assuming those responsibilities devolved to it by the UK government.

There should be no rivalry between these two establishments, and indeed from 1999 – 2007 they worked harmoniously in co-operation together.

I’ve long argued for devolution – but it’s disappointing to see how Holyrood has been recently transformed into a rival power base to Westminster – and now debating issues that do not fall within its remit.

** However, I absolutely agree with you about comments concerning “England bankrolling Scotland” – far too many on this site to be honest! They verge on insulting, often use one year’s economic figures out of context and conveniently ignore £300B of oil revenue transferred to the UK Exchequer since 1975. They are also counter-productive – and drive the forces of separatism **

You are discussing this with someone who became a reluctant leaver after following the development of the EU for 30 years. So lets just say we will agree to disagree over who runs the EU but at least you did not try and pretend that it is not destined to be a superstate.
Equal representation based on population per constituency is fair based on a single country namely the U.K, with its Parliament in Westminster. The 4 home nations do not come into that calculation.
Personally, I would be all for a constitutional convention to review the best way for the 4 home nations to stay together and to address widespread dissatisfaction with Westminster that goes to all corners of the U.K. But I think that Mr Blair’s botched devolution have put us on track to go our separate ways.
Talking about being patronised how about listening to Scots telling the world how they have been shafted by Tory England whilst enjoying free university education, prescriptions, hospital parking amongst other benefits not provided for south of the border.
Your answer is I should vote for a party that would do that but of course that is the challenge.
The more important point I was making is that after independence the SNP will not be able to rely on the wider U.K. and
I suspect like most socialists they will run out of other people’s money to spend.
I think we can all find people that wrap themselves up in the flag but my Scottish friends and yes I have a few, all tell a similar story regarding the anti English feeling, building north of the border, which is sad.

Yes the EU is a Superstate and I see that as a good thing, 27 nations (once 28 until the end of January 2020) working together to make the EU a power block that can challenge the US and China as a political trade block. I support greater EU integration…

I do agree that Blair bodged devolution but not in the same way you think, his failure was failing to do full constitutional reform, introduce a modern PR based voting system, replace the Lords with a modern upper chamber and procedurally reform Westminster. This failure led to the Constitutional imbalance we have now.

I am totally with you about constitutional reform and devolution and what it has done to the U.K.

I don’t believe Blair pushed through devolution to stave of independence calls. It was more like a cynical political ploy to keep Scotland in the Labour camp. They took Scotland’s loyalty for granted but his own legacy would undo this bond.

It is good to see you are an honest proponent of the EU but the bit I find odd is the desire to leave one union because of a lack of representation, which in part I understand. But why then the desire to join a much larger union with a parliament in Brussels (and sometimes in Strasbourg).

Of course the irony and some would say hypocrisy as someone who voted leave but who believes in the U.K. is not entirely lost on me.

Have a good weekend if you can.

I think you are totally spot on in respect of Blair, Labour and their concept of what they thought devolution would do. Their mistake was after spending decades stating that Scotland was getting Tory Governments against its will, which was always frankly a rather crude argument once a Scottish Parliament was setup it wasn’t that much of a mental Rubicon for people in Scotland to translate it to represent all Westminster based Governments which the SNP milked for all it is worth.

As for being a proponent of leaving one Union and joining another frankly that is complex matter that partial ties into identity, for me I just see the European Union as the same kind of Union as the United Kingdom. As for shifting to supporting independence whilst a strong driver is the desire to get EU citizenship back (and believe me I did just consider emigrating to another EU Country then applying for citizenship), it is not the only reason. The last five years has shown me how dysfunctional and not fit for purpose Westminster is as a seat of Government – the building has 30 bars! The arcane procedures, the filibustering and the FPTP voting system that perpetuates it fills me with disgust. I actually visited Holyrood in 2016 and I was deeply impressed, a modern building, with appropriate facilities, a modern chamber with proper seats and desks for each MSP with plug sockets for their laptops, electronic voting so there isn’t the hours wasted trooping through the lobbies, anti filibuster rules with a countdown clock on the wall to prevent MSP talking out legislation. For the curious the Scottish Parliament is actually procedurally and in its layout based upon the German Parliament as is the voting system for the MSP…I suppose it was a road to Damascus moment for me.

Anyway those are my thoughts on that, keep well and have a good weekend yourself.

“Mr Blair’s botched devolution” was the result of Scotland consistently getting a government they didn’t vote for. I even voted for the SNP in ’92 because I was heartfelt sick of what had been a pretty brutal Tory government. I totally get that it wasn’t just Scotland, there were plenty parts of England that were equally shafted but at the time (I was 24 in ’92) I was happy to use the line on the map to get away from that. I don’t see things the same now as a 50 odd year old but I can understand why others do and I can understand why Blair felt compelled to stave off the calls for independence by going for devolution. Arguably it was another ‘on my watch’ call but that’s what politicians (and in fairness people in general) do, they’re happy to kick the can down the road.

Exactly John but your comment’s message must be hammered to all media ,I believe there is a very silent majority of unionist in Scotland .

Thank you Dave and John. I hope you are right.