Finland and Sweden have simultaneously handed in their official letters of application to join NATO.
The letters were conveyed by the Finnish Ambassador to NATO Klaus Korhonen and respectively, the Swedish Ambassador to NATO Axel Wernhoff, to NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg at the Alliance’s Brussels headquarters. Mr. Stoltenberg warmly welcomed the requests, saying “this is a good day, at a critical moment for our security.”
The following is a transcript of his remarks, as delivered.
“Ambassadors, dear Klaus, dear Axel, dear friends, good morning!
This is a good day, at a critical moment for our security.
Thank you so much for handing over the applications for Finland’s and Sweden’s membership in NATO.
Every nation has the right to choose its own path.
You have both made your choice, after thorough democratic processes.
And I warmly welcome the requests by Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
You are our closest partners.
And your membership in NATO would increase our shared security.
The applications you have made today are an historic step.
Allies will now consider the next steps on your path to NATO.
The security interests of all Allies have to be taken into account.
And we are determined to work through all issues and reach rapid conclusions.
Over the past few days, we have seen numerous statements by Allies committing to Finland’s and Sweden’s security.
NATO is already vigilant in the Baltic Sea region, and NATO and Allies’ forces will continue to adapt as necessary.
All Allies agree on the importance of NATO enlargement.
We all agree that we must stand together.
And we all agree that this is an historic moment, which we must seize.
So thank you, it is great to see you both.”
Over to you Turkey….
Something tells me Turkey’s EU application will go smoothly..
Like quickset concrete?
That application has been effectively dead for decades at this stage, Turkey was never a likely candidate for joining and its major sponsor is no longer in the EU.
That and the one of the biggest opponents to Turkey joining the EU, Austria, isn’t in NATO.
There are more than just Austria opposed to it, and with what has happened under Edrogan they have slid even further down the list of candidates.
I didn’t say that there weren’t, I just said that Austria was “one of the biggest opponents.” That neither means that they are THE BIGGEST opponent, nor that they are the only one.
Can understand it go to any part of what was once the Austro Hungarian Empire and you will get a similar feel about it considering that Empire only held together to resist the Ottomans and they all spent 800 odd years or so being brutalised, enslaved and blackmailed by them. They get stick but I wonder how we would feel if we had to give, wealth and our sons and daughters to an alien presence just to stop them taking actual possession of your State and brutalising you in ways that make the Donbas look like a Kindergarten.
Well to be fair, the Romans did it, the roman celts did it, then the Saxons did it….its a sort of standard thing to pay off the barbarians at the door so they keep happy and quite….tended to never end well mind as the above three found out ( what’s ironic is the Saxons first got paid off and took England from the Roman celts anyway and then in turn ended up trying to pay of the Danes, although for the Anglo Saxons it did give them time to get their act together and stabilise before kicking the Danes from one of the county to the other.
Most people the Romans came up against where conquered and then assimilated by Rome, the same, for the most part, goes for the Saxons, our history is as part of theirs. The Austrian history is about spending centuries successfully resisting the Ottomans.
The hint is in the name Romano-British (Not Roman Celts, that’s a wider and much less focused term referring to basically all of Gaul, Iberia, and Britannia, and generally stops being used after the 1st century as Roman and Celtic became less distinguishable on the continent), they considered being Roman a core part of who they where, while the Austrians would *never* have considered themselves to be Ottoman.
The Romans also didn’t “find out” that paying the barbarians at the gates off was something that didn’t end well, the fall of the Roman Empire is massively complicated, but alliances beyond the border where not it’s downfall, in fact the Roman Empire survived in spirit and in terms of some of it’s institutions for a long time after the West fell specifically because of it’s treaties with the “Barbarians.” (For instance, the High Priest of Rome, the Pontifex Maximus, an office that was founded during the reign of Numa* in the 7th century BCE, still exists today, in part because a lot of the barbarians saw themselves as Romans).
As for the Saxons, the story of Hengist and Horsa not withstanding, the Saxons had been a known quantity well before the Roman withdrawal in 410CE, and their presence had inspired considerable fortification works. Paying them off was, after the Roman Army withdrew, probably the only chance the Romano-British had, without a centralised government or a formally constituted army. Plus remember that the only source material for the Saxon conquest is from 400+ years after it occured, and contradict each other.
*If you believe that sort of thing that is. After all Numa, like Romulus, Tullus, and Ancus probably didn’t exist, and certainly didn’t invent all the religious institutions he was credited with. But unlike the Tarquins and Severus Tullius the evidence on the ground is so sparse that frankly the chances of us finding anything concrete about the time of the first 4 kings are nil.
interesting read Dern, thanks for posting.
May have got a bit sidetracked…
interesting nonetheless 👌
Interesting Dern, I would debate a couple of points. The ending Roman rule in in Britain is one of those up for grabs dates but most modern historians now think is more likely 409, as noted by zostimus, the 410 date comes from a confusion ( probably) around a proclamation from a honorius about an Italian province call Bruttium.
Ive always used Romano Celt as thats generally considered the correct title for the specific blend of cultures, Romano Britain I would use to describe the time and place, Romano Celt the culture.
I would also not say roman rule sat easily in Britain at all, it was considered by contemporary writings a place of troublemakers and unrest.
I agree on the Saxon conquest, it looks like it was less a conquest and more a general absorption by a more robust culture, but the Roman celts ( British ) did likely both invite and pay them off.
Admittedly the evidence base around Rome paying off its enemy’s is very much around the first Visigoth invasion and then the second Visigoth invasion and first siege of Rome. What is interesting is that even at this point in the western Empires collapse the ruling elite were still more interested in consolidating their own power that securing their borders ( this was especially true in areas such as Briton, which Remember managed any number of Wan bee emperors). But in the end all the money and treasure payed to Alaric did not stop him coming back to finally sack Rome as he wanted the one thing they would never give him ( recognition).
completely agree on the fall of the Roman Empire it’s incredibly interesting, but to be honest the most fascinating thing about it is how the empire survived for so long with so much internal strife.
One interesting area I did read was on the effect of currency devaluation and subsequent inflation as a key driver of decline. The Denari basically moved from a 98-95% silver coin to 75%, 50% and finally to what was effectively a silver plated bronze coin with 2-5% silver content in around 280. They did try to reconstruct the value of the coin from around 290-300 but the economic damage was very widespread.
Ive linked one of the better articles on it
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/104458039290116Y
The problem is “Romano-Celtic” refers to a specific thing, and that’s not the post-Roman culture of the British Isles, it’s the blended culture on the periphery of the Republic and (to a lesser extent) the early Empire. Even culturally the Romano-British of the 5th century are different from the Romano-Celtic cultures 400years earlier. While there isn’t anything terribly wrong with “Romano-Celtic” for post Roman-Britain (unless you’re Barry Cunliffe and want to argue that British Celtic isn’t Celtic at all), it’s best not to use the same phrase to describe two very separate things.
As for not sitting easy, depends on when, it’s a long period, and yes there where revolts, but I could also point to a lot of revolts in Italy that occurred during Rome’s hegemony, that required an awe-full amount of policing. Like in Italy attitudes changed, and by the Roman withdrawal the army was most definitely posted there for Britain security, not keeping it in line (and propping up the occasional pretender to the purple). That’s how assimilation works, it’s not instant, it takes time, but it certainly happened in Britain, and it never happened in Austria-Hungary with regards to the Ottomans, which is where the key difference lies.
The paying off of the Visigoths was a thing, but it wasn’t a “learned this is a bad idea,” thing, it was a last ditch attempt. The Romans allegedly also bought off the Senones, Vae Victis and all that, although again, there are a lot of asterisks to that story, anyway point being they didn’t think that buying off the Senones was a good idea, but it was the only real option. By the time of their incursion the Western Roman Empire was on life support and the most of what was left of the Army had been sent to the east. Even the man who was most responsible for fighting the Visigoths back prior to the sack of rome, Stilicho, was himself a Romanised Vandal.
As I said, the only sources for the Saxon’s arrival in Britain from centuries after, and are a bit suspect. So no, I don’t think a second hand account centuries after the fact is a good reason to say “this likely occurred.” I’ll grant that it was, in the 9th century, believed that it occurred, but the Saxons where not unknown in 410, and had been present both as raiders and traders in the British Isles prior to that, so I don’t see any invitation as necessary to explain their presence (and Bede, the oldest source mentioning the Saxon arrival, makes no mention of any invitation, which makes me even more skeptical). Personally I suspect the “invited and paid off” narrative to be a bit of cultural self-legitmisation by later Anglo-Saxons.
I’m actually not that interested in the Fall of the Roman Empire, it’s more an area of incidental study for me, my particular area of interest is basically Rome leading up to 150BCE.
Really interesting cheers. I know the Romano Celt usage is sloppy, but generally some pretty significant institutions such as the British museum, use the descriptor Romano Celt for discussions around a number of archeological sites in the U.K. specifically a number of religious sites and it’s a general acceptable term if not completely precise but I agree with you it describes a number of different distinct culture groups…very much like calling someone British today ( I keep telling my Irish friends they are actually British as they live in the British isles, pisses them off something rotten, but it’s funny).
The argument around the Britons not being celts is a thing I suppose, after all pre 18c Celtic culture was used to describe the continental people’s only. But I’m happy to stick with the post 18 century view, but Sir BWCs always had compelling arguments on most things, a very very clever individual.
I agree the primary accounts don’t exist around the transition to an Anglo Saxon culture but I think it’s probably fair to take the secondary sources at some face value with a grain of some true to the story of Hengist, horse and Gwrtheyrn. The Anglo Saxon chronicles, Gildas and Bede’s works are all we have to go on. Thats what I love, who actually knows…..only people who have been dead for 1600 years.
Whatever floats your boat in that case, I don’t recall ever seeing Romano-Celtic used in anyway other than to describe site type instead of culture (ie how you might describe a Hellenic temple as “Corinthian” even though it was built in Athens, and had nothing to do with the Corinthians, but simply due to it’s architectural style).
I’ve generally never really been a fan of describing post Roman Britain as Celtic as there are some pretty hefty differences between them and the La Tene and Hasltatt cultures, but I don’t really buy into Cunliffes Atlanticism either, so I guess I sit somewhere in the middle.
The issue I have with the secondary accounts is mainly that they’re not in agreement and Bede, who wrote first, gave the fewest details (basically just stating that Hengist died fighting the Britons). Combined with the fact that we know Saxons where visiting GB long before Hengist and Horsa, it just smacks too much of embellished oral traditions.
Dern, good post but to further your basics Austria or Ostfrankenreich shortened to Osterreich (Ost = East, Reich = Empire) was the eastern lands of Bavaria which was used as a buffer zone against Ottoman/Hun expansion. The area was also known as the Ostland or Osterland, it is from Ostland comes the Latin Austria. The Ostland was used how Monmouthshire was used by the Normans against the Welsh.
As for Sweden/Finland joining NATO all I can say is welcome to the club. Small well equipped forces that would fit into NATO with ease.
Turkey could find itself a bit isolated and Russia has for centuries looked at taking control of the Straits, it was the reason for several wars in the 19th and 20th century.
Interesting, HRE migration era and early medieval politics are irritatingly byzantine and I’ve never really had the patience for them. XD
I echo Danielle with her applause for the comment exchange. Thanks to both of you.
Great post, enjoyed that. I like my Roman history but some of that was another level.
Indeed. Considering how un-militarised Austria is, they’re still quite proud that the siege of Vienna was where the Ottomans where stopped and turned back.
Well said. ISIS educated the world in the ways of devout fundamentalist Islam. The videos of barbaric acts were widely circulated by them for that very reason. Emulating the actions of their prophet, to attract financial support and jihadi volunteers from all over the world. With great success.
I wonder if there maybe a change in mood within Austria? If they might follow Finland and Sweden to apply to join NATO? Interesting times.
They can’t. The 1955 Austrian State Treaty prohibits Austria from being anything other than a neutral state. No foreign military bases are allowed. Finland and Sweden’s neutrality is one of tradition than of treaty. That means it’s for those two states to rescind their neutrality, not Austria.
I don’t think so, not for a while, they’re like Ireland, not under threat and still carrying a weight of History on their shoulders.
Thanks D
Greece are Turkey’s greatest opponents to joining the EU, then Hungary. The admitting of a major Islamic state into Europe has frightened half of the EU’s states.
Oh my god, what is it with people on this site and not being able to read?
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/finland-and-sweden-submit-applications-to-join-nato/#comment-643623
Is Greece in NATO? Is Hungary in NATO? Yes? Congratulations, you managed to completely miss the point I was making, now go sit down and have a bikkie.
Personally Dern, I find your insights into the Romans very interesting, I do find the Roman decline and the slide into the dark ages a facinating period of our great country.
I happen to note however you totally neglect the single biggest Roman influence and blight that echoes down the centuries and we still suffer through to this very day …. Men wearing sandles and who the hell added white socks to the horror show, the Vikings would be my guess….
Thanks! My degree was in Archaeology so hopefully I can at least sound like I know what I’m talking about XD (also explains my distrust of textual sources).
However, I hate to break it to you:
“-Ram tibi paria udonum t. ab Sattua solearum duo et subligariorum duo.”
Vindolanda Tablet 346
Or in English
“I have send you two Sandals from Sattua and two pairs of socks, and two sets of unerpants”
So, socks and sandals, are confirmed to have been in the British Isles during Roman times.
🤣🤣🤣 and I was hoping to ease us back into discussing the Nordics!
Love it.
I too study the Romans but mostly the classical era, and I lose interest after Septimus Severus. Too many emperors!
I know our Airborne is also interested in Roman history so will have enjoyed reading all that.
What is your view on the IX Hispania? Lost up north in Britannia or in the east as some suggest?
Can I go with “I don’t know”? XD Disappointing I know, but I don’t really look into the Imperial Roman army in that much detail. From what I understand there is inscriptional evidence in Germania that points to IX Hispania being there, and combined with (again as far as I know) a lack of contemporary textual evidence for the destruction of a Legion in Britain, I’d go with further east at a later date.
But when and where, I wouldn’t want to guess.
My particular area of interest for Rome, I think I mentioned is 753-150BCE, after that new information becomes very niche and the vast majority of sources are basically rehashes for popular reading (nothing wrong with that, and some of the general public books are very well written, so occasionally I do dive in, and I keep a reference library in case I ever need to look something up). But pre-350 especially it’s really interesting diving into the actual literature because there’s genuine academic debate and constant examination of evidence that really gets glossed over by less academic sources.
Well, I’ll go to the foot of our stairs! The breadth of knowledge on this platform is incredible. Posters (not me) cover the very intricacies of naval construction, to aircraft, weapons, et al. And now detailed Roman history – I love it!
I’ve never studied Roman history at all but at present I’m well hooked on the novels of Simon Scarrow and his two heroes, Roman centurions Cato and Macro, fighting in Britain, under General Plautius. Novels, as I said, but many’s the time I’ve digressed across the internet, seeking out more information about various historical Roman generals and rulers. Fascinating. Keep it coming.
For Britain, Agricola I find most interesting.
More than half Ianbuk; German public opinion counts for much and they have swung away from embracing Islam now they have it in quantity.
The EU is the only continental organizations that has no diversity it’s just a white Christian club despite European ethnic and religious diversity . Look at the Arab League African Union South American etc all diverse . There is always fear of the other in Europe and we know where that fear led to in the 1930s . It was the Muslims in recent history and we saw Iraq and Libya and now it’s Russia then it’s China , Africa thereafter or Aliens 👽? There always must be fear . Thats how the elite profit in reality which no longer come from one region while cost of living goes sky high for the average people in all this countries. Sad reality. Humanity are not at war it’s elites at war ✌️
Edrogan is the closest thing to a dictator among NATO state leaders.
Then Boris is a tyrant! With all the scandals and covid disaster he caused he still dancing and singing being above the law . The funny part is both are elected democratically. Hitler was elected too , democracy gives not always what you like
Yeah ironic that isn’t it. Cameron, Blair et al were all for it the people rather less so as indeed were France and Germany and one of the reasons many Brits wanted out. I remember it being said if we don’t let them in they might go all Islamic Fundamentalist, as if people likely to go that way so easily are the sort of society we would want to give freedom to roam amongst us so freely. To think our political leaders if anything, are actually going downhill from that low point of Intellectual debate is hardly encouraging.
It’s long gone.
A fracture where Turkey breaks away and does its own thing ?
I think that process has already started under Erdogan’s rule, he is slowly turning Turkey from the froward looking secular state it was 20 years ago back into an Ottoman-like pro-Islamist state.
Spot on that’s his thinking, not unlike Putin’s thinking on returning to some Czarist Russia/Soviet past. Both deluded with historical dreams of pre eminence and actual control or enforced obedience from those around them and subservient client states just like the olden days to boost their Imperialist egos and standing amongst their people and leave a historical legacy. Of course in the past those two motivations led them into direct conflict indeed Russian expansion was very often fuelled by removing Ottoman power in what it perceived its back yard. Sounds rather familiar doesn’t it and would inevitably do so again if they were allowed to fully live out their delusion. In that regard you can guarantee that Erdogan will play Russia and NATO off against each other for its own benefit all the will you can bank on staying in NATO as a convenient backstop against Russian aggression against it. A worrying rogue element at play. It will be interesting to see what they extract from NATO to give this the go ahead as they did last time in getting more recognition in central planning.
What happens if you want to eject a country I wonder not that that will happen it will only make them an even bigger and more dangerous rogue.
Yep, they seem determined to go backwards and heading in an ‘Iranian’ direction.
It’s their funeral I suppose. Personally I would rather Turkey leaves and the Nordics join, if it comes to a choice between the two.
Turkish loyalty to NATO is increasingly questionable …. They do however provide strategic control of the Black Sea (as Denmark does for the Baltic) and provide key potential air basing options in the countries South East.
John, don’t discount Turkey too quickly. They object to Sweden shielding some of their domestic terrorist groups. I expect the Swedes will move these groups along to get Turkey’s acquiescence.
Turkey doesn’t want to face Russia on it’s own, no matter how poor their current form is in Ukraine. As you have pointed out, they hold the key to keeping Russia out of the Mediterranean and that helps the other NATO nations out.
That’s modern day Islam for you – dark ages, backward and primitive.
“modern day” ?…. I would use the word regressive but then the followers of that faith have always seen its texts as absolute and immutable, it is a deep indoctrination that tolerates no criticism or change.
Has this platform become now an islamophobic racist platform?? Because I’m not going tolerate after anti Semitic comments I saw by some now to turn against the religion of 2 billion people and and see them called primitive it’s deeply offensive and disgusting ! UKdj it’s your duty to moderate hate speech which I’m going to report to the police . And shame on those that call this not out that use this platform
Sorry James but freedom of speech is one of the basic human rights that is none negotiable. All the others come from it. The choice to be offended by it is yours and yours alone my woke friend. Feel free!
On the subject of this “islamophobia.” Criticism of a religious ideology is not hate speech. Telling people to strike the necks of others, is hate speech!
Calling out a religion that promotes prejudice and hate is a duty of civilised people everywhere. An example; did you know that 2 people have been charged with witchcraft and beheaded in Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012.
Did you know that women have been sold as sex slaves and PoWs executed in the most heinous and barbaric manner by ISIS. All in the name of their religion and sharia.
Surely that is worthy of being called backward, primitive, barbaric and several other derogatory names. Such things belong in the dark ages and have no place in the 21st century.
I respect your opinions and will defend your right to express them. Even if or should I say especially if, I disagree with them. Because disagreeable speech requires even more protection. However, please do not deny others that same right and protection.
I hate prejudice as much as the next man and detest antisemitism in particular. That said. Such opinions are best out in the open where right minded people can be aware of and counter them. Shoot them down in flames and take strength from the act. Go for it brother!
Please keep posting here. Your views are valid, provocative and much appreciated.
I don’t engage racist bigots that hide behind a screen! You truly are sickening and disgusting ! Your islamophobic views won’t make you or this country great and have nothing to do with freedom of speech. I agree with Mike Tyson social media comment , many hide behind a screen projecting their coward views
James, you have attracted me and yet fail to counter any of the accurate, factual things I have said. Your weakly veiled threat of violence in the insults/Tyson quote, could be interpreted as hate speech. Despite this, I still respect your right to free speech and choose not to be threatened or insulted. It’s a real shame that you do not show the same respect to others.
I feel obliged to say the following.
Unlike you, I have placed myself in harms way to actually defend muslims and help liberate them from tyrants. Many are still good friends despite knowing my criticism of their religious ideology. FYI There is difference between disliking an ideology and hating people. Obviously such distinctions are above your IQ level because it appears you cannot even distinguish between religion and race.
Out of respect for UKDJ and Mr George Alison, author of this article. This is the end of my dialogue with you.
Can’t see him returning ottermans
to the Crimea the French and the UK won’t help them this time
Well said. I’d like to see Turkey leave or be thrown out of NATO. With Finland, Sweden and Israel invited to join. No matter what happens it’s going to cause a ruckus. Why not give the hornets nest a real good whacking and change the geopolitical landscape.
There could even be a NATO Mk 2, with stringent military spending contributions, universal suffrage/democratic provisos and expulsion clauses.
I think Turkey is looking for a better offer then Russia has no doubt given them… perhaps they will do a deal with the US for some F35Bs for their ships.
It is clear thar Russia cannot mount a real military threat to new NATO joiners at the moment so all it has left is political coercion and economic inducements…
I think Turkey will do a deal with NATO.
There is no way in hell the US Congress agrees to the sale of F-35s to Turkey. The US will hold Turkey’s request to purchase 40 F-16 Block 70s and 80 modernization kits for its existing F-16s hostage to any refusal. Not to mention existing sanctions against Turkey. NATO doesn’t have leverage, but the US does.
And Russia will suspend S300 support…
A month ago Erdogan wasn’t raising any objections about Sweden and Finland joining NATO, so it’s obviously a negotiating tactic to get something.
Of course it is, Erdogan is just out for personal gain. Just like hes been using refugees to bribe the EU for a decade, the man is awful and should not be dealt with.
Yep they have already laid out a list of things they want from the two nations, and most of it aren’t going to happen.
Turkey turns down NATO requests more than any other member. They are more trouble than they are worth to NATO. They still say that Greece shouldn’t be a member of NATO even though Greece has done more over the years for NATO than Turkey.
Unless you look at France, 1966 to 2009, withdrawn its military assets from the military command of NATO, over its rights to self determination of its nuclear assets…
Or Greece, 1974 to 1980, over the Turkish invasion of Cyprus…
Even within ”Solid” NATO countries their is division, even within political parties. Labour and the SNP / Greens in the UK, Trump in the US etc…
NATO is the corner stone of western defence, however, that cornerstone is not as solid as people think…
Another Putin success story.
According to the Panama Papers, Erdogan has at least twelve fat offshore accounts in the Cayman Isands, BVI etc.
Doubtless, a decent contribution to his retirement fund (all dictators have them) would have no effect on his objections to Finland and Sweden joining NATO whatsoever. Watch this space
Good news.
Two sound, stable, civilised and democratic allies.
Oh they also have decent militaries.
Nothing against the Finns or the Swedish but not sure if the timing is right.Even though the big bad bear is banging it’s chest .
Its the “big bad bear” that has precipitated this. I’m sure Putin can put a spin on it that the evil West has deceived them etc but even the most nationalistic of Russians must be wondering why ‘everyone’ seems to be against them. Yet another scenario that reminds of the the Mitchell and Webb sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
Why the hesitation Andrew? I can’t see any negatives, they are both absolutely first rate Nordic countries with advanced and highly capable militaries.
Wonderful additions to the NATO family.
The timing though enforced is exactly right. If Putin had attacked Sweden and their media has often talked about taking Gotland it would have been an inevitable war with NATO ( for reasons I won’t re-repeat) so best that Putin now can’t ignore that line in the sand through ignorance of that particular reality.
Andy ,John,Spyinthesky.I agree with your posts Guys there have good military and equipment and well train people .Guess it’s been a little unsure on my part thinking which way it will swing 🤔
I agree , this will increase hostilities in Europe which only benefits China .
Great news.
I notice Putin has softened his rhetoric slightly.
Run out of toys to throw out of the pram?
Ha, possibly. But it’s better than the threats.
perhaps the penny has finally dropped in his weathered excuse for a soul?
Probably all towed away by Ukrainian farmers on tractors 😆
I think he has run out of military to throw at other peoples countries….
Massively compared to his “reason” for invading Ukraine, but then that was always a BS reason anyway. Maybe someone pointed out to him what combat power the two nations had even without external support.
Seems to be doing a Stalin/Hitler and taking strategic micro managing military decisions at the front now. Mind you you can see the urge to think you can’t do worse considering the example that’s been set for him. He will no doubt be inventing tank formations soon to come to his aid with no one brave enough to tell him they only exist in his head.
“Where is Wenck” he’ll do well to do worse than old Adolf.
Hi DM
I wonder if he is actually ill? I saw a piece on BBC that there are reports of his health taking a turn for the worse (good news). I do wonder if my prediction from March is crystalizing:
I have read, like we all have, lots of stories ranging from blood cancer to parkinson’s. His arm shakes and he held onto that table.
Interestingly, Hitler was also shaking from 43 on with all the crap Morell was pumping into him.
I have no doubt that he is ill. About what i don’t know. And i think there is high probability that seeing the end of is life is what made him being hasty and order this clumsy attack.
Sends a powerful message to the Russians.
Let’s hope turkey does not put a wrecking ball through the plan. Not sure what would happen to NATO if that occurs.
Turkey is simply playing hardball with NATO (but more specifically the Biden administration) in which to overturn a number of rulings placed on Ankara after its invasion of Syria , its purchase of the S400 and of course its brinkmanship against European countries with the main one the resumption of arms sales, for example getting kicked off the F35 hurt Turkey, but worse its plan to upgrade its F16 fleet was kicked into touch. It didnt help when Greece upgraded its F16 fleet to the Viper standard or worse, when it purchased 16 Rafale fighter jets last year (with an addittional 6 purchased this year)
Relations with Ankara further nosedived when the new Biden administration picked Antony Blinken as its secretary of state and Blinken is no fan of Erdogan’
Ankaras game of hardball appears to be paying off because as of a few days ago, the US stated a potential sale of F-16 fighter jets to Turkey would be in line with U.S. national security interests and would also serve NATO’s long-term unity, the State Department said in a letter to Congress that fell short of explicitly supporting the deal. Erdogan has piled a little more pressure as of a few hours ago after he demanded that Helsinki and Stockholm hand over 30 so called ‘terrorists’ or it’s a no from Ankara, which I feel is simply to ensure the following list of demands is met:
Well they are not going to get the things on that list, are they? The demands are almost impossible for NATO nations to meet. There’s no way the US will allow any F35’s to be delivered to a nation where it will be exposed to testing by Russian technicians operating the S400 system.
Erdogan may as well demanded half the Greek islands, the US won’t let them get the F35’s.
Let’s not forget Turkey is involved in a bit of land grabbing themselves in northern Iraq against the Kurds
That’s not correct Jako, the Turks simply removed ISIS from those areas and is simply ‘staying’ to help protect them for the foreseeable future!
Haha, the ISIS that had a lot of deals with Turkey
Team JohninMK assured us the Finns didn’t want to join N.A.T.O.
Erdogan’s Turkey isn’t and doesn’t wish to be a western society; it is barely in Europe geographically. The Baltic and Mediterranean Seas are much more crucial to N.A.T.O. than the Black Sea in any case; Putin has been fighting a long war in Syria entirely to hang on to his Tartus naval base to ensure he has a presence outside the easily controlled Black Sea exits now Ukraine, Bulgaria and Romania are allied to the west.
It is worth recalling well before Putin’s Ukrainian folly, Erdogan chose his side, picking Russian S400 AA missiles against U.S. wishes and shrugged when Turkey was booted out of the F35 programme as a result.
He won’t be there forever.
He’ll try to be.
Quite frankly, if Turkey was trying to join NATO now it would fail to meet the criteria for membership. Erdogan seems to be modelling his style of government on Putin’s.
Ever asking yourself why Turkey got the S400 to start of with? This is what happens when uneducated dive into things they don’t know about ! Turkey could not get patriot missiles from the US and even Trump admitted that was a mistake Obama made! Turkey was forced to buy the S400 and Sweden block is Turkey wanting some pay pack . Most of NATO apart of Spain did withdraw their patriots from Turkey that faced missiles from Syria daily
They didn’t want to just buy the Patriots, which the US was willing to sell, they wanted the full industrial offset and design which the US wasn’t willing to give them.
Will be nice to have 2 countries in NATO that take their own defense seriously. Unlike some long time NATO states….
Finland will secure the Baltics with Sweden providing depth.
Baltic Air Policing mission will be less strenuous and more resilient.
I expect Rail Baltica will get the EU funded tunnel extension to Finland, logistics could be transformed and Kaliningrad totally isolated to air traffic, will SLOCs be cut off?
Counter to the good new is the melting polar ice – China will take up the slack; and they pose the major threat to NATO.
Q. Will Russia implode under this failed invasion and NATO expansion?
Loved the Roman Britain discussion. Just thinking we maybe at peak NATO, Russia being hopefully in retreat but dangerously feeling cornered.
says it all…
Saab Bofors is far more valuable than any Turkish crap. Yes I include the TB2 into that considering the full rig relies on multiple western components..
Most UK military gear has foreign components too. The carrier’s have french components the F35 mostly American the UK barely makes anything 100 percent which puts at at risk if Biden sanctions the UK over Northern Ireland
Why don’t Sweden send to Ukraine weapons that destroy the Russians by the thousands then? Even the UK other some anti tank missiles sent nothing to the battlefield that shows British military prowess! Turkey TB2 the entire planet is talking about and it’s the world best selling drone currently , when the the UK and Sweden last have a best seller weapon ? I leave you to answer that . Jealousy is a diseases itself that blinds people, and that’s what you and some others on here have . I like none biased facts which you can’t stand , instead you had under nationalism
Before the war, Russia was demanding that Ukraine be more like Finland.
Neutral, de-Nazified, with a government that looked eastward as well as west.
The Kola Peninsula contains the cornerstones of Russian activities in the Western Artic as well as major air and sea assets for the defence of the motherland. For the past few years Russia has been modernising its Airbases and port facilities there. Most of its TU-22, 95 and 160’s are based in this region. As well as the headquarters of the northern fleet and its collection of 8 SSBNs, 5 SSGNs and 20+ other subs, not to mention the surface force.
Also on the peninsula is the Plesetsk Cosmodrome, home to RS-24 Yars (NATO : SS-27 Mod 2) with 3 to 6 MIRVs each.
As we stand now, the Russians will see an 830 mile border, swap from neutral to ”aggressive” (in their eyes) with the stroke of a pen.
To supply these bases, the E-105 runs north south, mostly as a simple two-lane road. There is also a, mostly, single lane railway. Both pass through mostly forested, mostly deserted areas.
Finland, as a ”neutral” country has a ”punch” bigger than you would expect.
So now, looking at the current situation in Ukraine, the ease with which their Guerrilla tactics are cutting Russian Logistics to pieces. How easy would it be for the Finnish, for other NATO SF units, to cut Russian supply lines to the Kola?
And let us not forget, that the Baltic will become a NATO lake, all Russian subsurface traffic to and from the St. Petersburg region will be subject to monitoring until they exit into the North Sea.
So, will we now see a Nazification propaganda campaign from the Kremlin?, or will we see Putin ”removed” by people with more sense?
IMHO, What Russia, and the world needs right now, is a Stanislav Petrov moment!