What weapons will be fitted to the Type 26 frigates?

When I am in my waterfront office I can see thatb there are plenty of boats of various types being trialled on a daily basis . Solar Sail, Manta, L3 etc are all out and about on a daily basis

Except tell the sub you are not that sure where it is?

Against a nuc or advanced ssk in open water definitely… what if you are up against something smaller and less formidable in and around a shallow choke point such as the persian gulf for eg?

So we get to choose which subs the enemy sends against us?

We choose to focus on much longer reach sub warfare and fighting opponents that can make 40+ knots submerged rather than <10. No diesel submarine could keep up with a frigate while submerged, never mind a helicopter.

I am more worried by the sub that works out the likely course of our ships, gets there first & loiters silently.

To be honest if would be a closer than 10km considering the speed of a lightweight torpedo, unless the Submarine does not hear the launch or torpedo and is unaware.

If the SM is tracking the ship, it will detect the launch of a Torpedo!

Then I suppose the chance of an SSN evading or running from a 40knot 11nm range analogue of a mk46 would be high unless it was very close to the sub when launched, since it’s only got a 10 knot advantage over most SSNs. Clearly Initial bearing, reaction times, turning circle and acceleration of an SSN would make a difference which I’m sure you know and I don’t.

Hi Jonathan, people make a lot of this range versus that range, and this speed versus that speed, whilst important, isn’t the overarching issue which determines these outcomes.
The most important factors are detection ranges of both the main sonars and those of the torpedos.
A T23 on EM drive is a very quiet target, fortunately for our SMs they are quieter still, broadly speaking. SMs don’t only use sonar to detect opposition surface units, it starts off intel driven, which helps the Capt to position the SM to intercept the target. Then he can and will use an all sensor search policy to detect said unit. This includes sonar, visual(periscope) and esm information. Broadly speaking the SM will have the advantage in detection ranges – at times these can be very short.
A torpedos detection range is mainly determined by two factors;
1- noise of the target.
2- quality and number of hydrophones on the torpedo head.

A Spearfish torpedo will always have a greater detection range on a given target when compared to a lightweight version – Stingray, because it has a greater diameter, thus can accommodate more hydrophones in its head.

The detection envelope for a torpedo looks a bit like a ice cream cone, with the sharp pointy bit at the centre of the weapon head, expanding as you get further away from the head. Due to the size of mutations of the torpedo – small amount of hydrophones, the detection ranges are correspondingly short. If you can induce the SM into moving at speed, increasing his noise signature, you increase the chances of the weapon gaining the target – then things get interesting. Hope this helps.

‘size of mutations ‘ should read size of available space, not sure what went wrong with that !!!

A T23 also uses other systems apart from sonar. Again ESM , int feeds and input from other assets.
All of the above is spot on. However ships fitted with STDS can also detect incoming torps and deploy countermeasures and decoys. Part of the STDS is a mini towed array optimised for automatic torp detection

Morning GB, trust the weather is not too inhospitable in those climes that you inhabit? Lots of ‘dark and Stormy’s ‘ required over here in the next few days to stay hydrated!!!
Cheers mate, appreciate there is a bit more involved in this game. My knowledge of such systems is a tad more limited obviously.
Mine was more of a generalized response, as many posters seem to equate weapon ranges with detection ranges. Which as we know are like comparing chalk and cheese!
Enjoy your day off if it is one?

yes that’s really interesting thank you I had not really considered the difference in hydrophones on a lightweight torpedo compared to a heavyweight. Interesting around detection ranges as well, I knew they were small and the RN SSNs practices a lot around very close engagement ranges in enclosed water, does that mean it’s worth keeping the organic lightweight torpedos on escorts or is that something the submariner is less concerned about ?

RN SMs practice lots of different scenarios, as SM v SM warfare is short, sharp and brutal. As he who fires first, generally gets to go home. There are no prizes for coming second!!
You would probably be better off asking @GB or Lusty there views on keeping lightweight torpedoes. What I will say that out of the 4 possible detection ranges, ie Ship, SM Spearfish and Stingray, the Stingray has the shortest detection range, it is also a fire and forget weapon, so will conduct its search in accordance with what was inputted prior to launching.
Spearfish is wire guided so generally is controlled using info from the SM sensors onto the target, greatly increasing its probability of detecting the target. It has a a great speed advantage over a ship/SM and long range to maximize its kill probability if involved in a stern chase.

Brilliant, great info deep 👍

This was recognised in the 1970s by the RN who decided that the MK46 was rubbish and that we needed better. We got Sting Ray. Very smart sonar and computer on board, a very, very high speed, more manouver able through use of a propulsor and it has a shaped charge warhead able to punch through titanium and double Hull soviet subs.

The latest upgrades to Sting Ray have improved it even further.

I understand that the Constellation class will carry ASROC in the Mk41 launcher. I stand to be corrected if that’s wrong. As ASROC is a ship launched rocket with a torpedo attached it negates the need for torpedo tubes on the ship.

Is Merlin in the air 24/7/365 in all weathers?

The reason that the sub commander would close the range is to minimise the time that the ship has to manoeuvre out of the kill envelope, deploy decoys or launch a helicopter if it doesn’t already have one up.

In bad weather a sub can get close enough to a T26, T45 or T23 that they have next to no chance of maneuvering to evade or deploying decoys.

Constellation has the capacity to carry ASROC in the Mk41 but atm AFAIK all that’s planned is SM-2 and ESSM. So, no it doesnt. But since both Constellation and City have Mk41 launchers the process for acquiring ASROC would be very similar for both, if either navy felt they needed it.

I’m pretty sure Gunbuster had something to say about Merlin ASW patrol records in the RN, suffice to say, they seem to do.

If it closes in it’s more likely to be detected, and more likely to be found by a helicopter. Especially when it comes to a ASW platform like a type 26, no need to close to point blank range when your torpedos will hit from 5 times as far away.

The USN already has ASROC to deploy in the Mk41. The RN doesn’t and has no plans to buy them.

You haven’t answered my other points. The further the range then at launch then the more time that the ship has to:

1) Manoeuvre to get out of the kill envelope and take evasive action
2) Deploy active and passive decoys
3) Deploy a helicopter to hunt down the submarine if that’s possible given that the launch will have narrowed the search zone. This is highly relevant as most of the time a ship does not have its helicopter up and searching due to fuel requirements, crew fatigue and maintenance needs.

If the UK needs ASROC it can purchase them, that’s not a drama. But you raise a very valid point: The RN has managed without ASROC for a very long time, in fact no Anti-Submarine Ship launched missile has been in service with the RN since the Leanders. Type 23’s primary anti-submarine weapon? Helicopter.
Type 22? Helicopter.
Type 21? Helicopter.

So, maybe, the RN has enough experience to decide that a Helicopter is a better ASW platform than ASROC?

I did answer your other points: coming within 10km significantly increases your odds of being detected by a ship that specializes in detecting submarines, while still having to cover the ground that will be searched by helicopters. And also we are talking about a heavy torpedo, not a hypersonic missile; launching at 10k still has a 5 minute travel time, so the “too little time to deploy decoys bit” is irrelevant.

Same for manuever out of the kill envelope, except you’ve increased the chance for it to detect you and therefore have more time to manuever, I’ve covered this. The reason heavy weight torpedoes have long ranges is specifically to enable submarines to launch far away from ships where they won’t be detected, as a heavy weight torpedo is considerably faster than a submerged submarine.

Third point I’ve explicitly answered, so not much good faith there.

Baisically: The RN has nearly a century of experience hunting submarines in the North Atlantic, they know what they’re doing in this field.

So you’re okay with not having a weapon system because it can be purchased, integrated on the platform and have the crew trained in its use any time it’s required? I’m glad you’re not I’m charge of arming the navy. We don’t have ASROC and shortly won’t have ASW torpedoes for the same reason and it’s nothing to do with operational experience: it’s money. Over the years we’ve been too busy wasting that on job creation projects like MR4A and disasters like Ajax do don’t have enough for things that we do need.

Presumably the US, Canadian, French, Norwegian, Spanish, German, Dutch, Australian and Italian navies have never hunted submarines and know nothing about the subject which is why they all deploy ship launched ASW weapons.

We agree to disagree on the importance of holding the submarines at range in terms of manoeuvre and decoys but I’ve still not seen you answer the question about what happens when a helicopter is not available.

I may have missed it so apologies if I did but I don’t think that you answered the point about helicopter deployment if it’s not already aloft. A torpedo launched from 50km will take around 40 minutes to reach the ship which is enough time for the ship to launch its helicopter and prosecute the submarine. A torpedo launched from 5km will be there in 4 minutes which is not enough time.

I did not say that, so please don’t put words in my mouth: I said that if the RN decides they want a weapon system they’ve chosen not to operate, and clearly have never desired, for it’s entire 40+year existence, then the only barrier is purchase, which is not much of a barrier.
If you think Money and Operational Experience aren’t related then I DAMN sure am glad you are not in charge of anything to do with procurement. A capability has to be worth it’s cost and onboard torpedoes (and ASROC) do not provide the benefit that they’d cost. Acting like the two things are completely separate is just silly.
Do you think we don’t equip ships with 15 inch guns just because of the cost?

So we’ve gone from “every navy” to “this specific list of navies.” But again, I pointed out the USN doesn’t have ship launched ASW weapons on it’s latest class so even that’s not true.

Again, please see my comment where I specifically pointed out that the RN has not had dramas with getting helicopters aloft in it’s entire multi-class history of using Helicopters as it’s primary anti-submarine hunting weapon. You can choose to ignore that part, but I promise you it is in there.

And as I have already said: Getting within 5km of a dedicated sub hunting platform undetected is not going to happen, which is why you launch from far away. It won’t be a 4 min response time, it’ll be the first thing the submarine knows is a stingray being dropped on it by a merlin after the Type 26 has located it, because the captain decided to try and get really close when there was absolutely no need too.

Constelation class will not have a bow /Hull sonar. They will be 100% reliant on the VDS sonar. They will get basically the same set that the RN uses .
During a lot of sub hunting exercises and during the RN deployment to the east the current USN ASW systems have been found to be woeful. There is a reason why the USN likes to have a French or RN ASW frigate on hand to track modern SSNs …Its because of the 2087 sonar which the USN has nothing close to.

Right Helo V asroc.

Detection ranges count. If you detect outside Asroc range then what? You use the Helo. Modern active sonar detection ranges in average environmental can be measured at over 50km . Passive sets at + 100kms . ASROC needs VLS tubes. Having Asroc limits what else you can carry such as AAW missiles meaning you need to balance threats. What happens if an Oscar SSGN launches 8 missiles at you …Asroc isnt much use if you need AAW missiles .

A Merlin can carry 4 and a Wildcat 2 torpedoes. You can rotor running reload in under 5 mins from landing on and taking off again . You are only limited by the size of the Torp Mag and you carry considerably more torps than you ever would Asroc. In ops a Helo is at almost immediate alert to launch. Helos are for the most part pretty reliable and available when needed.
Equipment reliability is an issue for all equipment. what happens if your VLS tube gets goffered and damaged ? You lose the power supply? Reliability isn’t just a Helo issue.
As to weather if its to rough to fly , it’s to rough to hunt subs. Environmental will be so bad neither side will hear anything Surface wave and wind noise, stirring of layers will screw everything up on both sides.

Interesting, I didn’t know that about their ASW detection systems.

The RN hasn’t needed ASROC because it has has ship launched torpedoes. It’s now not going to have those.

I could list evey other navy if it would help. I thought it was useful to keep my list down to Western navies that hunt submarines in line with your example.

It’s a sweeping statement that the RN has never had difficulties getting a helicopter airborne when needed in its history. Do you have a reference for that? I’m pretty sure that one of the reasons HMS Cornwall’s boarding party were captured by the Iranians was that her helicopter couldn’t be deployed to support them as it was unavailable having just returned from another mission.

Oh really? If that’s the case why did the USN have both hmmm? So, right now you’re clutching at straws and making things up that are simply not true.

I do have a reference for that: I named him, in fact he’s here and replying to this thread.. PLease go ahead and reply to Gunbuster and ask him about it if you want. I’d love to see how you do.

I mean a written reference as I doubt that any one person knows the entire operational history of helicopters in the RN over several decades to the extent of being able to prove your assertion that there has never been any occasion where a helicopter has been required and was unavailable.

It’s not clutching at straws. ASROC or torpedoes give a vessel am anti-submarine weapon that establishes a sterile zone.

Pretty sure that GB’s replies here are written. But if you doubt it, as I said: Ask him.
And yes it is clutching at straws. As pointed out by myself and others here, your “sterile zone” doesn’t make any sense.

agree with all of this. It’s budget driven myopia. Given performance of RU munitions their subs may want to get close to guarantee the kill. With just 8 t26s they’ll be centres of gravity themselves.

I think the UK did mount the Australian IKare rocket launched torpedo system on HMS Bristol and a few
Leaders. The system only had a 10 mile range in terms of throwing the mounted torpedo however the torpedo would add its range to that. Ikara in RN service could also throw nukes….

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-weapons-will-be-fitted-to-the-type-26-frigates/#comment-658983
Yup.

Interesting allusion to nuclear depth bombs (or charges)–intrigued, so time to engage Wiki. Preposterous idea some would exclaim, yet shall we say there are unverified rumors that a specific inventory of said weapons accompanied the RN during the Falklands campaign? Really don’t have to worry much about precision targeting or strength of opponent’s pressure hulls under those circumstances. Analogous to fishing in a pond w/ dynamite. 😁 Evidently, a gentlemen’s agreement among then acknowledged weapon states circa 1889-1990 to w/draw inventories. My question, who here believes Mad Vlad and his thundering horde of Orcs didn’t retain a few in the basement? For that matter, who here trusts the ChiComs implicitly (e.g., Hong Kong Treaty)?
Believe democracies are now in a post-Pax Britannia, Pax-Americana world, and would be well advised to act accordingly. No Navy sails, nor Air Force flies, that is not loaded for bear (pun intended). To summarize, there is an appropos, if irreverent, paraphrase of a portion of the 23rd Psalm… yea, though we walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, we will fear no evil, ’cause we are the meanest SOBs in the valley…

The RN is very much interested in ASROC

The US Constellation class frigates will most likely carry the Vertical Launch Antisubmarine missile (VLA) the successor to the original ASROC. The Arleigh Burkes and the US Navy cruisers carry them and there is no reason the Connies won’t carry them either. It is launched from the MK41 and has a range of about 25 kms.

Most likely but they don’t, which is why I discount it, otherwise I could also be saying “the Type 26 will most likely carry the 5inch ASW shell which has a range of 40km” but they currently don’t so I won’t bring it up.

and uses a bastardised Mk54 Torpedo which is the propulsion part of a Mk46 along with the same warhead….the same parts that the RN identified in the 1970s as being useless against then modern soviet subs.

Funnily enough this is the same torp the RAF is being forced into using because Sting Ray isn’t integrated into P8s…

They’ve also put 4×4 NSMs on the Constellation’s.

But it does to all its new build DDGs. Maybe it’s a cost cutting measure. The US Navy has done some daft things sometimes, like not fit Harpoon to its Flight 2A and Flight 3 DDGs and remove the forward Phalanx from all Flight 2s. For years it hasn’t operated a VDS active sonar system on its ships (to be introduced for the first time on the Constitution class) while the main European navies have operated them for years). I wouldn’t always see the US Navy as the benchmark of good practice. Also the RN won’t just be fighting SSNs. It will also confront SSKs. And the rule about finding yourself suddenly close to a submarine trying to sneak passed you on its way to attack the main body of ships could apply whatever type of boat

It’s called a helicopter 😀

Haha, very fair point. I am pro the idea of Merlin + MQ8C/V247 as a manned/unmanned ASW team for our escorts: persistence, wider searchable area, quicker response to a contact. And almost immediately available. Helicopters are the sharp end of the ASW fight.
But being able to launch a Stingray from a VLS tube from ~50 km out at a quicker response than a helicopter, then it becomes a very effective tool for prosecution- even if it’s the helicopter finding it.

Yes. Seems like the best solution. The only obvious reason the RN has “managed” without a missile carried ASW torpedo is that we’ve not had to engage any subs for decades.

No one has, which is why no one has bothered to improve their existing systems.

The RN had the Ikara in the Cold War 1970s.

The thinking being is how do you detect a submarine at the distances for Asroc? If it’s helicopter then put the weapons on that.
Flexibility is key with these ships. They will have strike length mk41 launchers so lots of weapons can be carried if the need arises. Also putting a lightweight torpedo launchers on isn’t also a hard job.
Let’s get the 1st into service and see what the mission bay offers, new tactics, abilities etc. Tech is changing fast. A drone can carry a torpedo if needed. Unmanned assets etc.
Also new torpedoes will be getting developed soon. Interesting times a head.

According to Gunbuster adding a lightweight torpedo launcher on the ship is actually suprisingly difficult, since it requires not just the launcher but the magazines and reloading mechanisms which take up considerable space inside the ship.

On a T22 you needed a 5 deck lift system, ramps, trolleys, lifting jigs to reload the tubes on 01 deck. In NBCD environments it was a none starter .
On T42 it was trolleys along 1 deck then a Hiab or gooseneck davit to lift the Torpedo up to the tubes on 01 deck.
T23 has everything in the mag so the torp comes out of the rack into the tube via an air driven handling system. it’s large , complex and a friken nightmare to use. The time taken to reload 2 tubes is 30mins. You could have reloaded a Helo twice in that time.

👍

Detecting at range may be easier as getting drones to drop sonar buoys (not so hard as they are not so heavy) or firing sonar buoy rounds out of the 5” gun are all possibilities for the T26?

The very fact that there are active pinging sonar buoys out there will drive the sub so you get back to more like WWII tactics of rows of ships banging away on active sonar but in this case patterns of sonar buoys doing creating a similar effect.

John
Do you happen to know if anyone has actually fielded the hard kill version of the MU90? Is it something of real interest to MU90 operators or just supplier marketing?

Steven, to answer the first part of your question; it’s called satilite imagery, the second part with the 100 + miles range comes under pure fantasy I’m afraid. Helps and drones will cover that aspect once a SM is actually detected.

Should say Satellite, and Helo and drones.

As I stated above if you are in the middle of a battle group you can have out riggers 100’s of miles apart so if you are the anti submarine element of the battle group would it not be prudent to be able to cover the whole group by having a system that can cover 100 miles so if your out riggers have a contact or suspect a sub in in the region then it would be a lot quicker to launch a missile armed with a torpedo than dispatch a Merlin to the location to relocate the Sub.

Morning Steven,
by out riggers. I assume you mean ‘pickets’, which would be your ASW screening ships in a battle group anyway. They will be far closer and better able to react to any changes in the SMs posture, then something fired from 100 miles away.
Look at it another way, a SM traveling at 12 kts covers 1nm (2000yds) every 5 mins. Your rocket will take at least that to get out that far. Whilst the missile is in the air, the SM can have done many things, changed speed/depth altered course etc, increasing the chances of the torpedo never getting close enough to detect the target.
With systems like ASROC, you are firing at a predicted position where you think the SM is going to be when your missile arrives, if it’s not you have wasted that shot. The greater the range you fire over, the greater the probability of error.

Steven, Hence Helos over Asroc or missiles. You localise with helos and drop right on top limiting the escape options to get out of the dog box.

Absolutely, hence why the RN favours helicopters over all else. 👍

I could not agree more, but the North Atlantic is a fickle place and dose not always co-operate with the weather so a good 2nd option would be a step in the right direction.

Yes you are right, ref the time it takes to react to a moving target, so to combat that in this digital age would it not be better to have an ability to have a system that can loiter in the air so that the SM cannot out manoeuvre it or use its countermeasures then have the ability to deliver the torpedo on top of the SM giving it a lot less time to react.

Yes it would Steven, that will come in the form of loitering drones, providing support for the Merlin’s, eventually.

Provided the weather allows you to deploy your airborne assets also we simply have not got enough SSNs to protect every deployment so unless the government invests heavily in UUV’s that can deploy with or be deployed by a surface vessel or even deploy along side an SSN as a loyal wingman which would significantly enhance our Anti Submarine capability but all that is some time away so in the mean time why not invest in a system that can fill the void until such systems can come on line.

Well, you have a point with much of what you say. However, it is not a current requirement to be fitted (ASROC), as it’s not how the RN wants to fight, much like the debate around a AShM, which has now come back into serious consideration.
I fully understand the debate around fighting with what you have, so it’s better to have then have not. If you look at whom me might need it against, realistically that’s only Russia, the RN/MOD obviously think the system isn’t required. But, as with AShM that might change the closer Glasgow gets to being launched!!

If they could get the missile assisted torpedo similar to ASROC to fix into the Mk 41 VLS that would be a big step in the right direction and give all nations who use the Mk 41 the option to upgrade their AS capability.

There is also the deck launch Italian system. Not everyone uses mk41 & most ASW frigates don’t carry massive numbers of cells in any case. Every ASROC is 1 to 4 less SAM & mk41 is not reloadable at sea. Some ASW frigates can carry 2 helicopters (including T26). Should you fit ASROC style missile to T26 mk41 or would the 2nd helicopter be more useful?

You are right the more Merlin’s carried the better but if the weather is bad you have 2 birds stuck in the hanger so I would have thought it would be prudent to have a viable plan “B”. I know I am a dinosaur and the concept of a layered defence seems to have to be reinvented every time there is a war but by keeping one step ahead saves the most precious commodity we have un the RN that is the life’s of the crews that have to sail these state of the art fighting machines.

Where did this article come from?

Of course the Type 26 needs four quadruple 18 inch gun turrets

OMG. Journalists need to be held to account for making such blatant lies. I’m not sure how obviously I don’t want to see a Russia freedom of the press standards.
They have read 5inch and thought that’s the size of a toothbrush or the size of their nose after publishing. No concept of how a gun works. No research into what 5inch means in gun speak. 2 mins on google would tell you what a 5inch gun is.
Hint: it not the length

You’ve got to love the Daily Star.

😆 Embarrassing.

🎶”…with the boys from the Mersey and the Thames and the Tyne” 🎶

Bit tight for space. I don’t think the Russian aircraft do PGM very well if at all, so Stingers or Starstreak might be good enough?

MS,
I saw that and then decided to do a trawl on his name. Seems he likes to travel all over the shop.

Agreed 😂😂😂👍

Racism is:
“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.”

Leaving aside the idea of “race” is a artificial one, with a rather nebulous boundary: Prejudice, discrimination, or antagoism against someone based on their nationality would fall under ethnicity and is still racism, something that is often missed by people trying to excuse their own racism.

Question answered, thank you !

The problem is that with CAMM you intercept the missiles but not the vectors, those are free to fire at you from theoretical 26km so to speak.
At 26km it does not require an heavy missile it can a 100kg missile, so many can be fired or put in TB-2 type drones to overwhelm your defences just by number.

In my opinion the Type 26 mission could be done with Type 31(with electrical propulsion for ASW).

Happy to defer to experts but I think you might be underestimating the work that has gone into reducing the noise signature of the T26.

Indeed but that’s true if you have a 20mile range missile or a 100mile range missile. If you not part of an integrated air defence system, the attack is going to know your there from your Emissions, they will duck under the radar horizon until ready to launch pop up get a targeting picture drop down and launch before you know they are there. Then they just fly off under the horizon. It what the Argentinian airforce did with its exorcet missiles which had less range than sea dart…in theory sea dart should have been able to kill the entendards before they could get anywhere near the fleet….radar horizons and tactics mean range is actually one of the most pointless ways to measure the effectiveness of a defensive system.

Exocet(AM-39) had more range than the Sea Dart.
Argentinians went down to escape the Harriers.

That said you raise a good point, but active radars in modern SAM’s have capability of search themselves, they are not dependent of ship radar except for the initial cue.
The longer you are able to intercept the vector the bigger the enemy missile have to be and less number can be fired.

Actually the Mod 0 sea dart has 4km range on an AM-39. But in truth that would have been practically far more as the
entendards Were after the carrier and the T42s were down threat of the carrier so the entendards we’re actually flying very close to the AAW screen. They had to stay low or they would be detected and dead from either air intercept or AAW screen. Your simply unlikely to get an enemy flying high over the radar horizon it’s asking to be intercepted by something you don’t know is about. Any attack on an isolated AAW ship or any warship outside of an integrated air defence system will always be a high detection outside of engagement range from some form of ISTAR asset. The strike asset will fly low under the radar horizon, pop up acquire and confirm, pop back low and launch and leave.

The reality is the only time a ship need long range anti air missiles is when it’s part of an integrated air defence system, which is why AAW ships exist. Because your own Airborne ISTAR assets will detect them from a distance And below your radar horizon and allow an intercept with a long range missile.

A missiles own seeker head is very low powered and only any good for the terminal phase it still needs some form of guidance to the target…so for the single ship without airborne ISTAR and a kill chain that can look over the radar horizon the extra range is pointless.

I see, 74km vs 70km but no one would be launching the Sea Dart at that range, too risky to be baited on firing a missile and the airplane turning around.
Also no one would be launching the Exocet at 70km.

Sea Dart, was lucky if it left the launcher, most of the time.

And not forgetting that every Exocet that was fired was detected and jammed and hit a secondary target. which had no protection. due to various issues, Jamming proved a good weapon at passing it down the line.

Yes soft kill is very useful but it does have that one potential issue.

I forget to add the mission bays on the T26 which in the next age of autonomous vehicle focused will be a key part of any warships flexibility.

Yes the mission bay, might be mistaken but for me it does not seem able to improve the AAW ship capability. Maybe some sort of intercept drone.

The future of conflict is really going to drone based. With the ability to wide sensor ranges and the ability to extend or make more secure the kill chain. You have to remember it’s actually incredibly difficult to find opponent, as radar horizons, the size of the ocean to hide in and the need to hide mean that generally most platforms are hiding and not emitting. But I was not talking about AAW as that’s only one element of navel warfare but the whole domain and that’s where the missions bays come in. Remember the project 17 and the T26 are not designed to do the same thing One is a surface action/AAW vessel the other an ASW platform, with options for strike in its mark 41 silos, so it’s apples and pears but as a general warship the T26 would be more flexible and is what is needed for a our carrier battle groups and amphibious groups.

Sea Ceptor is a short and medium range missile. The MoD describes Sky Sabre the land Sea Ceptor is described by MoD and RA as a medium range system not short range. It has a range well in excess of 25km.

Hi rob, it’s a short range area defence missile, it’s a slightly different meaning from a short range missile, as short range missiles cannot be area defence missiles just a point defence missile…so yes CAMM is a medium range missile which makes it a short range area defence missile.

I have no idea how much fuel in the CAMM but the warhead should around 10kg, there is also the active radar seeker , the data link and associatated energy source to add extra weight, plus the engine and body.

We also have the CAMM-ER data to helps us: CAMM-ER is longer booster and heavier at 160kg. Range goes from 25km to 45km so about 80% increase in range.

SSN(R) is goaled at 8 boats

That would be better, but we will need to see any slip in order and it will be down to 7 again.

Japan says 30km+ for their more modern one.

Sure, but 1000kg of HE can blast bits of mine a long, long way.

There is a a shutter that can be opened and closed between the hangar and special mission bay.

That would imply that a Marlin have to take off before the other lands always.
Otherwise how can you pass one trough another in the ship?

Constellations, Italian FREMM, the old FFG-7 have hangar side by side which is the only practical way to handle 2 helicopters.