Argentina orders new amphibious landing ship

Yes, all true.

But how long would it take to deploy our pitifully few F35B fighters to the Falkland Islands. If the Argies ever wanted to invade again, surely they would do it when Big Lizzie is deployed in the Pacific. Also, after they acquired suitably equipped new jets, a destroyer or two and submarines from the CCP. All of which is likely to happen now, given the new Cold War is upon us.

First off. That is a highly unrealistic scenario. Our Force’s in the Falklands are very capable and would be a very capable deterrent. The number of F35s we have today isn’t going to be the same number we have as this decade rolls on. And we also have Intelligence. A nation like Argentina doesn’t plan a major offensive against a permanent member of the UN security Council, the 2nd most poweful member of NATO with a nuclear deterrent without Intelligence services all over the world finding out about it. A couple of Astute boats with TLAM could inflict more damage to Argentina military facilities then they could possibly wish for. The threats to the Falklands are constantly monitored and evaluated. We have bigger problems closer to home. 👍

Thanks for the reply Robert, much appreciated.
I get that but the CCP and Russia are members of the UN security council too. Granted we are in the five eyes and unless the Argies and their ChiCom allies are very clever, we would hopefully see it coming. It’s just a mental exercise trying to see the situation through the eyes of the enemy and predict threats.

There is no argument that the ChiComs are very clever. They would not encourage a Falklands invasion unless there were sufficiently important other “bigger problems closer to home” to keep us occupied.
One obvious big problem closer to home. If what the defence select committee said is true, about us needing a decade or more to replenish weapons stocks we have supplied to Ukraine. (A NATO wide problem.) Then the likelihood of an enemy taking advantage of the situation, just increased dramatically. Now would be a good time for a joint Sino- Russian, Iranian, North Korean and Argentinian alliance to kick off simultaneously. I expect people in Taiwan, Israel, Saudi etc are already worried about it.

Enjoy the rest of Sunday Robert.

The stockpile issue is a major concern, but think of it another way. The Wests response to Ukraine has demonstrated our resolve and overwhelming technological advantage. The difference our weapons have made to Ukraine fighting a massively larger force will not be lost on our adversaries. And also the huge economic damage conflict causes across the whole world. We should have shown this resolve and determination 10 years ago with Putin.

Agreed. Not all of our advanced stockpiled weapons have been sent to Ukraine, some particularly nice assets remain in quantity. Nonetheless, in some vital areas of land warfare we are in trouble.

The huge world economic damage has been compounded by the Wuhan Lab pandemic. (Accidentally or deliberately, we will see.) Yet another lesson learned by our adversaries. It is something we should be very concerned about. Even small belligerent countries can conduct the type of manipulative gene research that gave rise to the Wuhan Virus. Countries such as N Korea could be conducting gain of function research behind closed doors right now. With or without CCP PLA assistance.
You may recall the defection of Ken Alibek, a Colonel from the old soviet Biopreparat. Look him up. Even the data released to the public is enough to make the blood run cold. His disclosures unexpected. Smallpox and Marburg variants being particularly scary to biomedical technologists who understand the subject. The soviets had their lab leaks too.

I also agreed we failed to show Putin some serious resolve a decade ago. Western leaders are notoriously weak. But we also missed the opportunity to bring the entire Warsaw Pact into a new, mutually protective defence alliance 20+ years ago. Back when something like that was a realistic possibility. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Totally agree, but even with signals intelligence and the UK ambassdor warning of immient threat as early as 1980, apathy in any ruling government is the nations biggest threat.

We gave little to no indication we would credibly protect the islands in the past, even working on a white paper to hand the islands back!

The whole war should and could of been avoided. The Argie political ‘elite’ was genuinely surprised we chose to fight back. This is surely an own goal by the government at the time.

We didn’t totally see ‘82 coming?

The UK Ambassador in Argentina was furiously warning what was going on but nobody wanted to know.

If we had and had put more subs in theatre earlier the who thing could have been stopped.

Part of the problem was the general unwillingness to stop the invasion aggressively as it was a worry that we were seen as imperialistic bully if we hit first and they shrugged and said it was all a misunderstanding.

Hopefully, today’s intelligence communities and diplomatic relations have come a long way from the early 80’s. 👍

Just exactly how in the hell are you going to get a couple astutes to the southern hemisphere. The logistics do not make any sense at all. There are only a handful in existence. And they have more important things to do. Just stop with this

More important than defending our sovereign territory?
There will be indicators of what’s going on down there and we will act on them! When and IF the argies have the capability to have another go all our subs will be in service so I dare say there would be a very unpleasant welcome for them, plus with TLAMs we have the capability to rearrange the A/C on any airfield control towers etc that are being used in sorties against us.
any more silly comments? If not go back to your comics and leave the adults alone!

We had subs down south in 82. One sunk the General Belgrano remember. We definitely can today. The advantages of nuclear power. We have the logistics for global deployments. That’s why the RN is still a blue water Navy.

The Logistics of sending a subsurface vessel, that makes its own oxygen and fresh water, that has an unlimited range and would be fully stocked with food and weapons before leaving is actually a none issue.

We did it with less capable SSNs in 82 and with a Diesel Electric boat too…

Wrong! Oh dear, wrong again US fanboy!

A lot will depend on how deeply Argentina becomes indebted to China. As usual with Argentine finances, they are blowing hot and cold with China in regards to loans. They have already set up a fishing deal. Plus have an agricultural one on the way if not already signed.

It will be in China’s interest to protect their investment. Could we be seeing China’s first foray in to Southern America? The next 5 years will be telling in how far Argentina is willing to sell itself for a Chinese bailout.

If they jump in bed with both feet. Expect to see a lot of Chinese kit turning up in Argentina. Along with a military “trainer” presence. Which is the first step before China becomes militarily encamped in Argentina.

The US won’t stand idly by, whilst China sets up shop, especially if Chinese Naval and air assets are deployed there. This is due to the Southern Cape being the main route for the USN carriers. They are too big to pass through the Panama Canal. So I would expect US forces to mirror the Chinese probably in Chile, or as an outside chance in the Falklands.

You must also take into consideration the Latin American psyche. Which had a massive loss of face in the fallout of losing the 1982 Conflict. They have a generational irrational desire in claiming the Falklands. If China gave them the means, they will plan for a 2nd attempt.

Trade relations between China and Argentina are very robust. $6 billion in a year, mostly soybeans and beef. I doubt there will be a debt crisis because China would very much like to bail out the economy of Argentina through agriculture purchases, completely replacing the US Midwest.

Our rules of engagement mean that unless they do some NGS first we cannot or rather will not shoot them before they land. A couple of light attack helicopters and some Jackals all mounting HMGs and Spike ATGW or Venom ASMs will be more useful and cheaper than a on station SSN or CVA.

?NGS I don’t know that one.
Restrictive RoE are an old problem that costs lives, unless there is a bold field commander on hand who risks his career and court martial. Changing them is a must. An amphibious landing force approaching the Falkland Islands territorial waters, should be hailed and them after crossing the line, sunk. Arguably, even if it turns tail and runs for home. No intimidation or brinkmanship games allowed.
Lynx helicopters and Jackals would be insufficient to counter a half serious amphibious assault. Especially one mounted with CCP supplied weaponry. The ChiComs are planning and preparing for an invasion of Taiwan. Probably the most heavily defended island on earth.

What does China get from doing this? They don’t do anything especially war fighting unless it benefits them substantially.
Argentina would need 5/1 forces landed minimum. So 10,000 undetected. That is no easy feat to prepare, train, mass, move, sail and finally land. Then constant resupply.
Argentina has no jets or a navy.

The CCP goals to be achieved by 2050 are common knowledge. Including to overthrow the USA as the most powerful military force in the world. Have you been following their weapons development programmes. The speed of production would be considered wartime rates in the west.

They are negotiating to build strategic naval and air base on the Argie Atlantic coast and somewhere in South Africa. One in Pakistan is also being reported by the intelligence service of India. You tell me what they hope to gain?

Selling Argentina J-17 fighters and doubling imports from them is part of the deal granting the strategic base. As is openly supporting argie claims to the Falkland Islands and extending an almost endless line of credit. I believe the term used is “bilateral defence cooperation understanding.” This is all available open source. There is nothing new other than joining the pieces together.

Selling or leasing naval assets and training crews and pilots is the easy part. The PLA already supply and train the military of other friendly nations. Pakistan etc

With the sanctions etc against China for taking part in conflict would really hurt them.
China is very dependant on food imports and exporting goods. Whether it thinks that pain is worth it is an unknown at this point.

The largest export of Argentina has always been food. It’s most likely the primary reason for the CCP to snuggle up to the argies. Literally guaranteeing a market for every ounce of scoff they can spare. They also export rare earth metals. Short of a full naval blockade, sanctions would have zero effect on that trade partnership.

Also, the strengthening of ties between Russia and the ChiComs has massively increased trade between the bordering nations. Other than energy (gas, oil and electricity) food is the primary commodity China receive. Now that the EU, Turkey and the US has stopped importing. I imagine China and India will easily absorb the excess between them. Again, sanction free.

CCP exports is where free world trade sanction will hit, and hit hard! I wonder if Russia and other CCP friendly nations could compensate. Of course China has made itself indispensable to the rest of the world for many things via it’s role in the global supply chain. The sanctions blade would cut both ways. The geopolitical map is certainly changing.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3139603/how-china-grew-buyer-major-arms-trade-player?module=perpetual_scroll_0&pgtype=article&campaign=3139603
Read this.

What China would get is to test it’s kit agains the west and generally get a understanding of western marine tactics. The original Falklands was looked at by the US and Russia as a small scale version of what happened if the two fought it out. The US changed a lot of its tactics after the war

Horizontal escalation. If the UK sends warships to the Western Pacific and supports Taiwan secession then China would give discounts to Argentina for fighter planes and other defense equipment. The balance would change and the UK would have to move a full squadron and other forces to the South Atlantic.

NGS mate is naval gunfire support ie if they lob shells onto the FI prior to an invasion. But not going to happen mate. The scenario of 10 plus, 20 plus Argie fighting hawks etc has been wargamed a lot against the Radar/rapier (now sky sabre) and the x 4 Typhoons, and with notice, every raid, every approach angle has been defeated by Typhoon and meteor. Although as we all know war is full of surprises and “fuck me” moments lol cheers!

Did they wargame 20+ Chengdu J-10C and an unspecified additional number of JF-17 Thunder aircraft. Together with a couple of Type 045A frigates also supplied by the CCP. Possibly a number of Type 056 corvettes too. As built and delivered to several ChiCom friendly navies around the globe. Both classes are capable of NGS and missile support. 100mm gun on the frigates and 75mm on the corvettes.

If the strategic naval and air base is built in Argentina. Then we could expect PLA Air Force AWACS coverage. In much the same way as we support Ukraine at present. In addition to submarine patrols by the PLA navy.

I know initially it seems like an outside chance of this ever happening. But it is far from wild speculation, given the quickly changing nature of the Bilateral Defence Cooperation Understanding. The closer to the 2050 CCP deadline, the more likely these things will be.

I’ll see if I can find a copy of the CCP strategic plan for you. It is quite informative and they are surprising ahead of schedule.

If they try that, the Chinese bases in Argentina would be smouldering find within hours.

Highly unlikely my friend. That would risk nuclear war. The only way we could do it.

If Argentina gets better military equipment from China and starts to rebuild its forces. I can guarantee that the UK will bolster its forces down south.

I wouldn’t. For one the cost is already really high and as our force gets smaller and smaller it becomes harder to justify the assets there or at least becomes harder to spread them as widely as they already are. Just look at pull out of the frigate/destroyer that used to be always in the area. The younger generation was polled about the Falklands and interest in the topic or knowledge of the war at all is very low, and so interest in spending money for it will be lower down on voters priority.

Agreed.

I would hope so, but that is reactionary and will take resources away from somewhere else. More importantly, dependant on the political will of the day We almost had Jeremy “Trots” Corbyn in power. Friend of Venezuela and communists.
The ChiComs and Argies are talking about it already. The time to act is now. Combine the military expansion with opening up the much needed gas and oil fields. Bolster the importance of the Falkland Islands. Make them as vital to the national interest as the Shetlands. Two birds, one stone.

That would take a number of years, those platforms, to arrive in Argentina and have trained and competent crews. Nope, while we mustn’t take the eye off the ball in regard to Argentina, the main issue is the Chinese buying and “loaning” their way around the world mate!

Agreed, at least in part.
Not much we can do to influence the rest of the world where the ChiComs are spreading their filth. But we can be proactive over the Falklands. Open up those gas and oilfields while the prices are high, thanks to Col. Putin. Turn the Ukraine situation to our advantage. Then protect our assets.
People did argue that the Falklands war was over the resources off shore and not sheep farmers. So now is the time to play the hard earned ace in our hand. Bought with blood. It makes sense to this grunt.

Argentina does not have an airforce that could engage the four typhoons that are based in the falklands…..they have around 20-30 A4 Skyhawks of which around 6 are considered operational…even if they could get all their Skyhawks operational all they would be is targets and would never even be able to engage the Typhoons before being shot down.

If Argentina suddenly got an Airforce of 4th generation. Fighters..they would have to train the pilots and develop the squadrons….all the UK would need to do was increase the number of deployed typhoons…and by the time Argentina ever got a reasonable airforce we would have plenty of F35s to deploy three squadrons and if it all went wrong in the south Atlantic…2-3 squadrons of f35s and a couple of squadrons of typhoons would be able out fight essentially anything that could threaten the falklands.

The fact we now have a very well equipped airbase means we can always graduate our response to any threat that could be built up.

The 700-800 miles round trip to the Falklands will also always be a problem…that’s a long way to fight an air campaign without all the enablers.

I won’t give an exact figure. But with a quick stop at Ascension Island and in company of a Voyager tanker in less than 24 hours.

One of the oft-overlooked features of China’s international relations is that it is very financially motivated- if Argentina wanted a decent array of Chinese-made weapons and platforms then they’d have to cough up a correspondingly large amount of money. Either that or borrow the money from the Chinese and get stuck in a debt-trap.

Thanks for the reply Andy, I couldn’t agree more on all points.
We must remember that the Russia of today is not even a shadow of it’s USSR + Warsaw Pact predecessor. (Which included Ukraine.) The obsolete weaponry being thrown to the wolves in Ukraine was once “near peer” to our own. There was always a technological gap but it was less so for the Red Army than their naval or air forces. The once proud and very fierce Russian bear, currently resembles an aged arthritic zoo exhibit. With poor eyesight, rotten teeth and broken claws. It’s actually kind of sad. Oh how the mighty has fallen.
The threat we face today, is centred on the Chinese Communist Party and their allies. A far more capable and multifaceted opponent. Therein lies the problem.

Not only is the CCP building up it’s conventional and nuclear arsenals. The ChiComs are also closing the technology gap at an alarming rate. While very effectively competing with the free world, in every other possible arena. Be it diplomatic, financial or technological. That to include Information Technology and utilising the assets of space. Some would argue that in the various fields of espionage, they are light years ahead.

As incapable as the western nations of the free world have become of rapidly rearming. Our predicament is not incurable. It’s just seriously set back. Take our own country for example. But it is going to take politicians who actually understand the situation intimately. Specifically former or serving military personnel (Yes serving!) and gifted old school industrialists. Like it or not we are in an arms race. Your mention of Dreadnought was prophetic. As that mentality is needed again.

Do I see an air intake for a jet engine. Oh that looks decidedly evil!

In the near term, a must!

Worth reading, it has now slipped until 2027.

“The planned entry into service date for the SPEAR-3 medium-range stand-off missile of 2025 is likely to slip to 2026 as there are limited resources available for the integration work.

To a large extent, MBDA is dependent on Lockheed Martin’s software development prioritisation for integration projects, despite the UK being the sole Tier-1 partner in the F-35 programme.

Until the F-35B can carry SPEAR-3, UK carrier strike is somewhat blunted and dependent on dropping laser-guided bombs, typically requiring aircraft to get within lethal range of surface-to-air missile systems.”

LINK

Interesting reading the US testing a JDAM ER? against a ship recently I believe. Some debate about it, but seems a range in excess of 40k is possible with pinpoint accuracy it seems, depending on the size of the bomb being used. Maybe my criticism of the RAF using bombs against the US destroyer last year wasn’t quite as embarrassingly old school as I claimed at the time.

I really wouldn’t underestimate the effectiveness of LGB’s.

Against Russian rubbish systems an F35B with LGB’s would be fine.

Invincible I would think.

And being put to good use it seems!

“U.S. Air Force Gen. James Hecker, head of U.S. Air Forces in Europe (USAFE), as well as NATO’s Allied Air Command and U.S. Air Forces Africa (AFAFRICA), provided details about Ukraine’s use of the JDAM-ER at a media roundtable that The War Zone and other outlets attended earlier today.”

LINK 

“There is growing recognition around the benefits of widening platform access and developing a range of Spear variants in order to maximize commonality within Spear, for both additional military capability and to meet potential demand from export customers,” one defense official said.

“There is an aspirational requirement to integrate Spear 3 operational capability onto Eurofighter Typhoon, and both Italy and Germany [partners with Britain on the Typhoon program] are showing interest,” the official added.

LINK

The missile system was put through several major manoeuvres, including a demonstration of very low sea skimming at very high speed.

After travelling a distance of 100km, the floating target was hit with an ‘almost zero’ miss distance.

MBDA said in a statement: “Hitting the target confirmed the perfect behaviour of the missile and the telemetry system recorded a huge amount of data. Flight data showed very good alignment with simulation outcomes.”

“The Marte ER programme is progressing at full speed in order to meet customers’ requirements and the full integration of Marte ER on the Eurofighter Typhoon platform is proceeding at pace in order to implement an anti-ship capability onto the fighter.”

LINK

Am I right to assume the extended range version is a glide munition and not powered in any way. Wouldn’t such a weapon be easy pickings for CWIS, unless launched by the dozen!
“R2D2 front and centre!”

I’d there any evidence that Russian R2D2 can hit a LGB?

Particularly if it has been made slightly stealthy?

Probably couldn’t hit an LGBT in drag!

Coming soon I hope!

MBDA’s new Marte ER anti-ship missile successfully completed its final test firing at the end of November 2021.
Carried out at an Italian test range in Sardinia, the firing was a key milestone in the validation process of Marte ER. It provided extra confidence in the performance level and reliability of this new missile.

A telemetric production standard missile with all functional capabilities and production hardware embedded was used. The only exception was the use of an inert warhead instead of a live one. The ground-based launching system used was also in its final hardware and software configuration.

Using its mission planning software, the missile carried out a long-range sea skimming flight. It made three main turns and a pop-up / dive manoeuvre during the last turn. A straight segment then followed up to the RF seeker activation point. Target identification, selection and tracking was extremely fast and proportional guidance started soon after.

During its terminal phase, the missile successfully performed its anti-Close-in Weapon Systems manoeuvre, hitting the target just above the water line at high transonic speed. This confirmed the outstanding effectiveness of Marte ER’s terminal guidance with its new solid state RF Seeker.

The firing also showed Marte ER’s turbojet engine behaviour was excellent for both “in flight start time” and thrust level.
This firing was the last one in the development path of Marte ER, which will enter into operation early next year.

LINK

This LM business is irritating. Am I cynical suggesting part of this is due to politics and the US preferring the UK to buy US weapons?

Not at all, It never pays to have all of your eggs in one basket!

Tier one seemed to get the U.K. lots of input into the jets and production of them.
Seems to give very little for actual software management.
Block 4 is massive. Hopefully no more delays. After initial block 4 there’s block 4.1, 4.2 etc etc.
It’s like a new plane.

Let’s hope we haven’t been sold a Monkey!

Marte ER hasn’t been integrated on Typhoon yet. This was a publicity photo taken some time ago. And so far, SPEAR 3 isn’t going to be integrated onto RAF Typhoon. But this could change.

MBDA Spear (Not SPEAR 3, thats the MoD Programme name…). Is getting integrated onto Typhoon. Should arrive by 2025. It was a fairly quiet announcement in a Gov paper.

Marte Mk.2 is already integrated on Typhoon for Kuwait. The ER version should be comparatively easy as a result.

Hi Rudeboy. I’m not sure if some of that is correct. A Typhoon will conduct test firing of SPEAR 3 sometime this year as part of the de-risk project to integrate the weapon onto F35B. So far, no funding line has been provided to integrate the weapon onto Typhoon for the RAF. Hopefully this will change.

It was mentioned in a MoD document late last year. Totally unheralded. No big announcement or additional funds allocated, it wasn’t just an aspiration either.

I believe the aspiration is to get the weapon onto Typhoon. I just think the money hasn’t been made available yet. Hopefully the test firings go as planned this year, and we are a step closer to it entering service. 👍

Even with external weapons, F35B still has a very low radar cross section, and still very survivable. And airframe radar cross section Is just one part of managing the signature. It’s something of a mith that hanging a weapon under the wing of an F35 suddenly makes it a huge visible target. It doesn’t.

The whole point of the F-35B is stealth.

It is. And when sorties require the maximum survivability, like the first night of war, then they will go in with internal weapons only. But with external weapons, it still has a very low radar cross section compared to say a Typhoon. And managing the electronic spectrum and emissions is just as important as airframe radar cross section. Just keeping the radar switched off can make you difficult to be detected and tracked.

Oh dear, limited subject matter knowledge once again, well at least you are consistent in your lack of knowledge.

Handbags at the ready.

Stand by stand by…..

No that is one point…it’s not the entire reason an aircraft is fifth generation….sensors and sensor fusions as well the pilot interface as well as a level of low radar visibility makes up a fifth generation aircraft.

Its stealth will clearly be compromised.

Eurofighter Typhoon has RCS between 0.05 – 1.2 meter square.

“In “Beast Mode,” the F-35Bs and F-35Cs can mount ordnance on external wing pylons; however, that would increase the radar cross-section of the stealth aircraft.”

“The F-35 is said to have a small area of vulnerability from the rear because engineers reduced cost by not designing a radar blocker for the engine exhaust.”

LINK

Weapons Capacity

The F-35 carries weapons internally in stealth configuration, or externally in permissible environments with greater than 18,000 pounds of total ordinance.

LINK

I agree the F35 will do its best work when it’s RCS is lowest.

I’ve always assumed F35 will work as part of a combined force. Certainly carrier strike will have Astute(s) as escort which will get upgraded Tomhawk which has antiship capability and huge range. So if F35s on picket they can detect enemy vessels at range and other assets get tasked to engage.

Typhoons will have electronic stealth including Radar ll which is due for flight testing later this year and not forgetting loyal wingmen of course!

“EW systems are able to evolve to deal with this dynamic and rapidly changing threat, in a way that fifth-generation stealthy aircraft cannot.

While stealth aircraft are hard to detect, they are not invisible, and counter-stealth technology is developing rapidly. Moreover, the skin, internal structure, and configuration of an aircraft cannot be easily altered.

“You cannot easily modify a stealth platform to counter new high-end threats,” Hewer said.”

LINK

But stealth aircraft will also boost the same EW suit. The F35 already has a very good EW suit, which us getting a refresh to make it even better.

There’s been claims of anti stealth systems but you only have to look at 6th gen fighter designs even from China.
They’re stealthy. That tells us that stealth is still a must. If China knew stealth could be defeated it would be building non stealthy 6th gen airframes which would be far cheaper.

Stealth will allow you to get closer for now, but to what degree in the future remains to be seen!

I’m thinking along the lines of a Two Seat Typhoon to be used like the EA-18G Growler to cover a wider electromagnetic spectrum that can be updated to meet any given future threats.

April 2021

LINK

I’ve posted before that we should order more Typhoons we’re the only participant not ordering more if Italy goes ahead. But likewise we need to increase F35 numbers to. This will give us a potent mix of 4++ gen and 5th gen airframes.

Good points. As of yet, no anti stealth systems have posed a serious threat. If they did, we wouldn’t be making Tempest or NGAD stealthy or even bothering with the B21 Raider. Stealth these days is a very broad term. And it is much more than just airframe radar cross section. We have come a long way from the F-117 Nighhawk. The electronic spectrum is just as important. No stealth aircraft is completely invisible to radar, but they can manage the signature across the whole electronic spectrum, IR, and airframe return to minimise the enemies ability to track or target. Stealth will remain a vital part of combat air for many decades to come. And the networked ISTAR capabilities and enhanced situational awareness we hear ever more about today are just the continued evolution of fast jet capability.

We have discussed this before. It is also in Leonardo’s interest to state that EW is easier to keep up to date than the airframe inherent stealth. Which by the way is cobblers.

As we all know the F35 uses embedded radar absorbent materials (eRAM). The aircraft’s skin is the absorbent material, rather than an absorbent paint. This means it has a much wider RF absorbent property than a thin layer of paint. However, like all RAM it has a threshold, where it can no longer absorb the RF and it then starts to reflect it. The F35s skin is also very good at absorbing non-specific polarised waves, i.e. E, H and circular. Which older paints struggled to cover.

Tactically passive RF absorbtion is always better than an active version. As you can program a RF seeker to home in on the jammer.

However, when the two are used in concert. It makes it very difficult to pick out a target amongst jamming. spoofing and ghosting.

I suspect Lockheed Martin, USAF and DARPA have a plan to keep the F35’s stealth relevant in the future. Technically a semi RF absorbent paint could be added. That allows the majority of RF through to the eRAM, where the paint knocks of a few dBs worth or power. But its thickness will have to be balanced against the added weight.

How do they fix this onboard the carriers? We have discussed this too as I recall. And at what cost and downtime given out limited defence budget?

“While it is known that significant leaps in the maintainability of radar-absorbent materials (RAM) were integrated into the F-35 design, recent images from the F-35C’s inaugural cruise raise potential questions about the ease of maintaining the jet’s coatings in the demanding maritime environment.

Iron is a known ingredient of radar-absorbent coatings going back to the dawn of stealth technology.

While caring for a stealth jet’s finicky skin is one thing when operating from a well-appointed land base, it’s more complicated when critical maintenance tasks must be undertaken at sea, where spares, maintenance experts, and specialized tools are less likely to be available in significant quantities.

On top of that, space on a carrier is at a premium and low-observable maintenance shops have traditionally been fairly elaborate dedicated facilities.

“Maintaining [the] radar-absorbent coating on the surface of the F-35 is a job that takes very detail-oriented, sometimes tedious work — masking every small area, properly mixing chemicals, applying them precisely, smoothing, and assessing the smallest imperfections.

It’s time-consuming, but it’s vital to get it right,” Master Sgt. Francis Annett, 388th Maintenance Squadron Fabrication Flight Noncommissioned Officer-in-Charge explained in an Air Force release.”

LINK

That’s exactly how F35 can operate. It’s ISTAR and situational awareness capabilities allow it enhance the capability of other aircraft and warships its operating with. Sharing targeting information and tracking so other assets can engage while it operates closer to the threat environment. Targets then then be engaged from other assets while keeping emissions (radar ect) as low as possible.

Interesting…. regards the slaving to one of the radar types we already use there.

To be honest when we look at Argentina it is very easy to get carried away and want to look at Top end, war fighting capabilities.
But this isn’t 1982 and just taking a few simple, low cost moves deters them from trying anything.
The Giraffe AMB is virtually identical to the Sea Giraffe used on the USN LCS ships with NSM.
All you need are 2 Sky Sabre batteries in the Falklands one of which can be forward deployed to West Falkland with 3 or 4 ATV’s with 4 NSMs each. If you stick it up on Cliff Mountain it covers pretty well everything for 130 nm and for the fraction of 1 Fighter.
IMHO we spend way too much time indulging in high end projects sometimes when we just need to think about what we want to achieve, what we have already available and be creative.
2 Good examples :-
1 High end Warships are vulnerable to either suicide or swarm attacks in littoral waters such as the Gulf.
Simply bolt 5 Martlets to the 30mm DS30M mark2 it works, I just don’t know if they ever actually adapted it.

2 Take 1 German DM51 Grenade add a 3D laser printed case with fins and fit it to a small drone.
Just add a Russian tank with its hatch open and hey presto.

Agreed.

After the successful trials on HMS Sutherland in 2019. The RN said they weren’t going ahead with the project. They didn’t give a definitive reason.

Part of the supposition is that the exhaust flame from the soft launch rocket impinges on the ship’s structure. As Gunbuster alluded to, there’s lots of stuff in the DS30 area that doesn’t like the extreme heat from the missile’s exhaust.

Also upgraded TLAM will have anti ship capability with range of something like 800 miles.

In most respects it doesn’t matter. If the F35B is tasked with taking out a ship. It will be doing this at distance. Initially it will be purely in a passive mode, where it’s using its radar and other sensors to detect the emissions transmitted by the ship. By flying a zig zag pattern, it can then triangulate the ship’s position.

If the F35B has a pair of JSMs under the wings. It will try to minimize its radar signature by maintaining a head on approach. As JSM has a range over 100km, the F35B can launch at the ship well beyond being detected.

To really mess with the ship’s defences, the F35B could also be carrying Spear-3 EW. A combination of specialized jamming and the IR seeker in JSM would make it very hard to defend against.

And again when is this capability going to exist.

Stand easy bud, it’s on its way!

216 Sqns swarm work has gone rather quiet.

I noticed that too, decide to sprinkle positive thoughts on it and take it that, they have stumbled on a golden idea and are keeping it quiet.

I wonder….

No they are basically a few bods looking at what is happening with commercial drones and opportunistic cross overs into the military…there is only four of them and they don’t have any drones.

Well an FOI showed that there were only 4 personal assigned to the squadron and they had no drones attached. Apparently they have had of the self providers show them 5 diffident drones over 13 tests…that was as of last autumn and three years work..so I would not expect to much…it’s more like a few bods going around and seeing what the drone manufacturers are doing rather than a dedicated team pushing the frontiers of swarm…

The swarm potential is something MBDA are really seeming to be pushing on their own….they are looking at it across their missile families….as well as their push for the light and heavy smart glider concept.

Shows how much hype is created by HMG, MoD. I recall the fanfare when the Sqn was reformed. 🙄 4 posts…..blimey.

I was a bit shocked when the FOI was published….they tried to stop it…but the journalists who got the info knew their stuff and kept going until they had to publish it….it was a bit embarrassing and a minister of state later made an announcement saying how many different drones they had looked at and tests they had gone to see…all four blokes….

True(ish)

The BAE2000 was envisaged as air superiority.

During the long, and latterly deliberately slowed, Typhoon program the threatscape changed and so the platform evolved. But the possibilities with electronics massively changed.

Why were the other types so specific? Weight, space and power for onboard systems was a massive consideration. Computing power became small, lightweight and the need for a lot of power/cooling the calculus dimished. Wiring wise T2 onwards replaced copper wire with full fibre also saving weight and boosted bandwidth as well as reducing EM emission and effects such as EMP resistance.

So really lots of things came into play as well as the desire to retire older types and consolidate systems and programs.

Fortunately it had enough grunt with 2 x EJ2000 to be a very good bomb truck.

Was just reading up on the original requirements and i was partially wrong. it was required as a air supremacy jet with that as its primary focus, but there was a requirement for some limited ground attack capability. At least what i can find from the web archives it was never designed with the idea of it being a swing role that it is now used for. I guess because the whole need for air supremecy went away with the cold war.

I wonder what they had in mind to replace the tornado in the ground attack focus.

Think the desire changed from having multiply airframes doing a specialist role to a more one does all that the Tornado developed into. lowers the service cost and spares. Much the same the RAF moving to have single type fleets. lowers overrule costs

“I wonder what they had in mind to replace the tornado in the ground attack focus.”

I think that was the FOAS, long cancelled.

Real same FOAS got binned. Just for fun. I’d be purchasing 138 F35A’s to replace Tornado GR4 capability and numbers. I’d maintain swing role Typhoon at about 130. And purchase around 94 F35B’s for carrier strike. Total fantasy today, but probably doable if at least a 2.5% defence budget had been maintained over the last 25 years. Now I’ll wait for somebody to shout at me. 😆👍

Oh if we’re play fantasy forces. I’d take your 138x F35A’s and add 24 C’s, 3 reasons,
1 proper USN exchange opportunity onto their big decks as a squadron and if we ever Cat n trap again, the experience and a starter fleet of aircraft are waiting.
2 as the USN is the only customer I reck LM would do a deal to get another client for it.
3 Why not I once suggested to DM that the Red Arrows should take on the Tornado purely for the noise of a diamond 9😁

Typhoons kept at 130
I’d like to see at least 90 F35Bs.

And a financial/management rethink

I do wonder if it’s time that treasury, home and foreign offices should all start footing part of the deterrent and pensions again. Stick spending bang on 2% then and you’ve just stuck an extra 25-30% onto their budget. Then instigate a proper major projects office headed by a 4star from each service for say 5-6 years before your eligible to become your respective head of service, there’s real incentive to get major projects done right as only really blame your own team once your head of service.

😃 Nice choices. The only thing I’d change is, I’d have T1 Typhoons as the Red Arrows 😆. You have a point though about keeping people in post long enough to see projects through to the end. The constant handover in main building as people move onto new posts can’t help.

“Also Tranche 1 need AWACS support in the air defence role, and its ordnance is now life expired.”

Asraam Block V is still in service and is replaced with Asraam Block VI…

Amraam B and C-5 are being retired (and sent to Ukraine) but Amraam D have arrived…

Enhanced Paveway II is not life expired.

If I was Argentina and ready to try again, I would make a massive fuss in the UN about the UK militarizing the area and put polictival pressure on the other south American countries to also make a fuss (they already have form on this), at the same time as moving units into place. The fear of annoying latam trade and pissing off the US would mean we wouldn’t send additional forces. Then it’s a race against the clock, can they take the island and this time no move their heavy gear or navy back, before the fleet can arrive to reinforce

Issue is the long Range Radar @ the Falklands would pick up any sudden increase in activity. much like it did in 1982 and was ignored. time for the Argentinians to get a task force there the Reinforcements would have arrived. and they would be made to look foolish and weak all over again.

Reinforcements would take weeks to arrive, the ocean isn’t any smaller than it was in the 80s. Assuming the opportunity to air lift reinforcements in is lost.

If they managed to somehow take out the typhoons there (wouldn’t be too hard as not many there, could have a special forces unit land and take them out as they take off or various other non convential approaches to the topic), then we have no way to defend an air lift (way out of range of typhoons from the Ascension).

If there is polictical backbone, we will reinforce before the landing happens and then they have no chance, I just can’t see it happening. Too much dithering will go on.

It’s all theretical as they are decades away from having a force capable of making the crossing, with or without this landing craft and longer still having the force to hold the islands if they were to capture it. I also highly doubt they would be stupid enough to do it a second time.

More jets including F35b and transports could be there in less than 24 hours if really needed. It would be a rush.
4 typhoons head out to ascension with a voyager tanking, C17 and A400 loaded up and head there also. Pit stop. Special forces also loaded on transports.
Another 4 F35b and tanker head out.
An extra tanker heads out incase of issues.
If for some reason the runway had been damaged the troops there mark out area for aircraft. Typhoon, F35 and the transports can land in a small area if needed.
A330 should of had refuelling as I’m not sure it can make return leg without landing.
So the forces on falklands need to hold airfield for 24 hours.
It won’t happen as Argentina doesn’t have the forces or equipment to even attempt it.
I hope they don’t have the will either and both countries can prosper together.

F35 or typhoons don’t have the legs for that flight, even with large numbers of refueling it would be a challenge. Just look at what it took for operation black buck to get 3 planes over. Transports could make it, but slow moving transports would be easy target for Argentinan forces and long distance radars, making it insanely risky and highly unlikely to succeed. So yes we can reinforce within maybe 24 hours, but the clock has to start before the invasion begins. Since once the argentine forces land and setup air defence units, transports wouldnt be able to be sent, it’s not big enough a land mass to land out of range. Not to mention Argentina jets could operate from the main land and incept the transports which would be easy pickings without a fighter escort.

Voyager has much more range than the Victors used for Blackbuck. The A330 has massively over sized tanks because the fuselage is common to the four engine A340. Without cargo or pax, the whole MTOW can be used for fuel.

A single Voyager can do Ascension to Falklands and back, with spare fuel to offload. Perhaps would need two tankers per Typhoon but it’s definitely possible, without any complex transfers. They drag four at a time across the Atlantic.

What I couldn’t find was what the combat radius of the typhoon is fully armed. If only 2 refuels each way it would be possible but any more and we wouldnt have the tankers. Well I guess it depends how many typhoons are sent, it’s it’s just a couple then maybe.

It would require far more than 2 A2A refueling top ups for a Typhoon to get to the Falklands. They usually top up 3 or 4 times just crossing the Atlantic because they need diversion fuel. So flying to the falklands would require many top ups so they always have enough fuel to make it to a diversion airfield incase something goes wrong.

When the 6 F-35B arrived from MCAS Beaufort to RAF Marham in 2019, The 6 F-35Bs were supported by 3 Voyagers and each F-35B had roughly 8 refuellings during the trip.

In this scenario that’ll only get you to Ascension Island, So you’re talking about 15ish refuelling serials from Brize > Mount Pleasant

Yes, that sounds about right. The aircraft do have long endurance on a transit flight, but the diversion fuel required greatly increases the number of fuel top ups required.

Does diversion fuel go out the window if Argies started build up and we actually did have to reinforce the Falklands. Im sure someone in an office in the MOD would consider getting rid of a safety margin to look good.

No. Diversion fuel does not go out of the window. The option to divert is for pilot and aircraft safety. In a time of crisis, an aircraft can be cleared to fly with a non critical flight safety related fault that would normally keep it on the ground during normal peace time training flying. But diversion fuel is a corner that would definitely not be cut. And planners in MOD don’t make such decisions to look good. Every effort is made to deploy fast jets to any operational theatre as quickly as possible. But safety is always the priority. 👍

Dug this out from 2009 you may be interested in https://en.mercopress.com/2009/10/23/typhoons-were-flown-non-stop-to-the-falklands-with-support-from-ten-aircraf

Veru Interesting. Just shows the huge effort required to get 4 fast jets so far south. Thanks for the link 👍

According to the Airbus website; The A330 MRTT can support the deployment of four fighter aircraft plus 50 personnel and 12 tonnes of freight (luggage, spare parts and equipment) in one direct flight over 5,200 km, e.g. from Europe to Afghanistan.

A single Voyager could do 3 Typhoon from Brize > Ascension > Ground refuel > Continue to Mount Pleasant which would roughly take 20-24 hours

It’s all hypothetical as Argentina doesn’t have the forces/equipment to attempt a landing.
A voyager took the typhoons there originally I think.
It has loads of range and fuel.

Quite a journey, but more than possible!

Thinking out of the box, I wonder how much it would cost to develop a suitable rack for Typhoons to carry more Meteor?

Include an Anti-Ship capability like Marte ER near-term and you end up with a package to deter any possible Argentinean future invasion.

Far cheaper in the long run I would have thought.

LINK

A CGI image exists of a Typhoon carrying 14 Meteors and 2 short range missiles. .

Give me meteor launchers, brimstone triple racks, a soldering iron and 3 hours. Job done 😂😂

Nice 😆

The Typhoons on the Falklands are regularly replaced. The last time I was down there, we came back on a Voyager, we had a pair of Typhoons in formation all the way back to Ascension. The Voyager did air to air refueling which was pretty cool to watch.

So a reinforcement flight of Typhoons or F35s won’t be a problem.

Interesting. I assume they weren’t armed, but if possible with an empty load than also possible fully armed just with more refuels.

It was a while ago. They definitely had drop tanks and possibly ASRAAM under the wings. I can’t remember if they carried anything else.

Must have been pretty cool to watch. The mind boggles how they came up with air to air refueling in the first place.

Typhoon has a ferry range of 2,778 km with x3 drop tanks + x2 ASRAAM x6 BVRAAM (Air superiority loadout)
According to the Airbus website; The A330 MRTT can support the deployment of four fighter aircraft plus 50 personnel and 12 tonnes of freight (luggage, spare parts and equipment) in one direct flight over 5,200 km, e.g. from Europe to Afghanistan.

A single Voyager could do 3 Typhoon from Brize > Ascension to Ground refuel > Ascension > Continue to Mount Pleasant which would roughly take 20-24 hours

Are you sure on those figures? The data I found for the range was with drop tanks but unarmed.

I took the figures off Wiki and my thinking was; 1,389 km combat radius with A2A loadout allowing 10 mins of loiter before RTBing so 2,778 km “ferry range” with A2A loadout would make sense

Not to mention any sniff of something happening Astutes would down there.

Indeed. Lots of discussion about what missile/bomb could be fitted to a Typhoon or F35 to take this ship out. All valid discussions of course. But if Argentina ever got itself sufficiently organised to consider an invasion we would just have to hint that we had an Astute in the area and they would think twice. Jim Callaghan played this trick in the 1970s with Operation Journeyman.

Typhoon Jet 10 miles above the Falklands.

https://ukdj.imgix.net/2023/02/mtveu3sx9bi51.jpg

Typhoon max range is just under 3k km Vs 4k for the vulcan, actually closer than I thought it would be. F35b is around 1.8k km

“wouldn’t be too hard as not many there, could have a special forces unit land and take them out”

I don’t believe it would be so simple.
Have a look at MPC on GE. The terrain is open. DSF have on occasion surveyed security arrangements on the FI and I believe there are various other “arrangements” in place, both physical and electronic, to counter such. Even regards to using a SAM further out, they have to land undetected.

Our own plan to remove the Super Etendards and Exocet was seen as suicidal, even for 22 SAS, so I do not give Argentinian SF much hope.

Assaulting MPC is not the same as D Sqn arriving at Pebble Island.

Finally, our intelligence apparatus in that area is greater than that available in 1982, and even then we were aware what was afoot, but the FCO stalled and blustered.

The SAS raid was suicidal as it involved crashing a transport onto the runway, so effectively a frontal attack with no exit plan. I was thinking more covert. As they will know which way the landing force was coming from, they will know where to position themselves and could be a fair distance from the run way.

The other question is whether the typhoons could actually sink the vessels without dedicated anti ship missiles. I am assuming yes but it’s not been tested to my knowledge. Targeting something on the ocean is not easy due to the noise involved

As soon as there was rumblings we’d get a couple of Astutes down there. Argentina wouldn’t be aware of their presence. These can hit ships and do land attack. It would be difficult for any attacking force to keep resupplied if they managed to actually get a foot hold in the first instance. The airfield would loose its run way making resupply by air an issue and supply ships would be easy prey for our attack subs.

That’s where the UN drama comes in, it would mean the gov wouldn’t send one in fear of annoying the US. In a fair fight Argentina couldn’t win, but war isn’t a fair fight.

I suspect the main challenge for Argentina would be the river class, which isn’t ideal but does have a limited punch and the ability to do a contested landing, as the garrison will be able to deploy once the landing force enters into Falkland waters. There is only a hundred or so infantry there (most of the force is support and logistics) but they will be well armed and we know how much damage a few NLAWS can do.

Again this is all hypertectical, but an interesting thought process.

By ‘wouldn’t send one’ do you mean an Astute? Of course we would send one if we needed to. What the Falklands war showed was that we absolutely would send whatever was needed despite the US being nervous. Dithering by Regan and Haig over the Falklands crisis drove Thatcher completely mad but it didn’t dissuade her from doing what was right in the end. It was useful that Caspar Weinberger was a voice of sense in the US Defence Department.

Falklands proved we wouldn’t. Multiple platforms were moved ahead of the war, as we suspected it was coming, but none were moved into the Atlantic, for fear of what the US would say about us operating in their back yard. It was only once hostilities started that the policticans got a backbone.

Whether the previous war has meant they would react sooner a second time, who knows but I doubt it

I don’t know who made the decision to move the platforms towards gib ahead of the war, but assume it was a naval decision and not a political one.

I accept that the 1982 government mishandled the run up to the war. They sent the wrong signals by suggesting they would remove Endurance and talk about sovereignty. Lord Carrington even resigned because of how badly it had been handled. But I don’t think being worried about the American response had anything to do with that incompetence. In fact Jim Callaghan had sent a task force and a submarine to deter the Argentinians only a few years earlier (Operation Journeyman). When the mistakes of 1982 became painfully obvious the government did the right thing.

Cock up not conspiracy in my view.

Not indicating a conspiracy, just polictics. Any miltiary action starts with the policticans, and they have a habit of not wanting to escalate things and dithering.

Look at the build up to the Ukraine war, it was clear that the NATO eastern border was at threat and yet all western governments dithered about reinforcing it. Same thing would happen. Same during ww1 and ww2.

The Agrupación de Buzos Tácticos, APBT have landed on the islands loads of times, since Argentina surrendered. The late ARA San Juan lost in 2017 was probably returning from such a mission. The APBT’s job is to reconnoiter likely amphibious landing sites. But also to build knowledge and a pattern of life of enemy defences. Pretty much what the SBS do.

As the Falklands are sparsely populated and with a huge coastline. It makes the APBT’s job easier, but also the Falkland Island’s garrison harder to hunt them down.

Argentina is going nowhere near the Falklands. However, their suicide penguins might; gloves will be off for that one and the fight bitterly contested.

It is insidious, but in fairness they are just copying what we have been doing for centuries. I’m sure they would laugh if we asked them to stop.

Agreed, it was common knowledge in Hong Kong before it was handed back.Being more liberal minded Hong Kong had a more balanced girls vs boys ratio.

Atleast this means the army won’t be getting its magic uplift to some how fight China.

Hopefully the next government sees sense and continues the naval build up.

At 2.5% with a naval focus we can have a world class navy in terms of equipment and scale while retains a small but highly trained well equipped army.

2.5% of GDP with an Army focus gets us back to an army only interested in keeping numbers above 100k and saving cap badges rather than looking at effects.

At 2.5% we can do one but now both. Just have to rely on the Germans guarding their own boarder for a change.

I personally dont see things as bad as some do, yes the Uk could do more, but to be fair, allocation of spending on defence has risen, the actual stats on defence funding as of Dec 2022:
https://i.postimg.cc/JzD5KfN3/Opera-Snapshot-2023-03-13-184350-www-gov-uk.png

The link for the above

😂

It will worry me more if the £4.9 billion increase over two years is £0.9 bn this year and £4bn next year, with next year’s increase starting just after the election. I think he’ll want to look good on AUKUS so hopefully not.