In a recent exchange in the House of Commons, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace confronted an assertion by Patrick Grady, SNP MP, regarding the absence of ‘armoured’ warships in Scotland.
Grady’s use of the term ‘armoured’, a dated descriptor from the era of battleships and cruisers, appears to be a repeated talking point among SNP MPs.
This suggests a calculated effort to shape a narrative around Scotland’s defence landscape, despite its misleading nature in the context of modern naval capabilities.
Grady posed the question: “Can the Secretary of State confirm that there is not a single armoured surface ship permanently based in Scotland right now? How exactly does that enhance our maritime security, protect our undersea cables and offshore infrastructure, or make Russia feel any less emboldened about sailing into UK waters?”
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace promptly countered with a focus on Scotland’s significant defence assets and the strategic deployment of naval vessels.
“First, some of the most formidable subsurface boats in the world are based at Faslane. That does make the Russians calculate. Of course, the SNP wants to get rid of that, make tens of thousands of people redundant and fantasise about what that will do. Secondly, a warship is best used at sea, not at port. That is how to deter Russia. Tying it up alongside, empty, no doubt as part of the Scottish “navy” under an independent Scotland, will hardly frighten anyone.”
The Defence Secretary was referring to the Astute-class attack submarines stationed at Faslane. These submarines, among the most advanced globally, serve as the Royal Navy’s primary platform for anti-ship and anti-submarine roles. If you were in Scotland and worried about Russia, these are exactly what you’d want based in Scotland.
His comment on the strategic use of warships at sea rather than at port emphasises the active deterrent role the Royal Navy plays in maritime security.
The persistence of this ‘armoured’ ship talking point among SNP MPs may stem from the party’s push for Scottish independence. By focusing on the absence of a certain type of ship, despite the term being outdated, SNP MPs may aim to underscore perceived shortcomings in the current defence arrangement under the UK government.
However, as Wallace highlights, such a narrative neglects the complex realities of modern naval defence and the robust defence capabilities already in place in Scotland.
Grady wasn’t the first to use the term, however. Marion Fellows, MP for Motherwell and Wishaw, said recently.
“Off the back of reports that Russia is content for its ships to sabotage northern European energy infrastructure, it is more concerning than ever that, despite taking up the majority of UK coastal waters, Scotland does not have a single armoured ship permanently based in its waters.
This narrative, while it may sound compelling, paints an inaccurate picture of Scotland’s defence landscape and the nature of modern naval capabilities, you can read more on the claim by Fellows here.
Armoured ships! For God’s sake how out of touch are the SNP? Good to see Ben Wallace respond so robustly. Although if I was him I would have said SSN in the statement just to ram the point home.
Cheers CR
I am a Scot, British and a Unionist so it really annoys me to say that if you dismiss the uneducated use of “Armoured ships” and actually take a step back and think about the underlying question then I think the SNP may have a very valid point.
And it deserves a bit more thought then a Fly Swat answer from BW, it raises some very serious structural issues.
At this point I am sitting incredulous that I have just written the above 😫
But the simple facts are that Scotland has by far the longest coastline in the U.K, the largest part of the EEZ, most of our Gas and Oil reserves, most of our underwater Gas supply pipes, underwater cables and is home to our CASD and soon all of our SSN’s.
It is also the part of the U.K which has the deepest, quickest access to the Northern Atlantic, the GIUK gap and the Russian Northern Fleet.
Which is probably why the Russians are busily sniffing round it, with not a single Frigate in sight.
So why do we still have more surface Warships based in the Gulf than we have in Scotland ? The local fleets are all well equipped and given the Saudi / Iran entente I can’t understand why we still have a T23 forward deployed there (and it needs 2 crews to do so).
Rosyth is on the wrong coast and has tidal / bridge) access issues, Portsmouth and Plymouth are both on the South Coast both also have access issues, longer Transit times and the infrastructure costs are far higher.
So why not bite the bullet and purchase Inchgreen back into public ownership before it is swallowed by Executive Housing and Shops. And build a new modern base right down the Road from Govan and Scotstoun ?
And shut one of the South Coast bases, given the cost of housing in the SW I’d think Plymouth is worth a fortune.
You my now all load your cannons, carronades (great Scottish guns)and fire your Broadsides.
But other than sentiment, “Historical” issues and set up costs I can’t see any logical reason why we still have the exact same basing plan as we had when we were fighting France and Spain.
IMHO we are pointing all our guns in the wrong direction (Singapore Ring any bells ?).
I actually think the above is one really great political argument to increase the size of the RN, build a new modern base (With a carrier sized dock in situ) and pivot North. And it gives us one more powerful argument against the SNP and independence.
This is what you get with devolution, the Scottish government, and Westminister government would have to be in agreement before new military bases could be opened. It appears the SNP has an anti-military (green-leftist) stance.
I don’t disagree but our basing has been been out of kilter from way before devolution.
IMHO the way to deal with the SNP is actually to do the thing that would destroy them and a rational UK Defence argument for increasing U.K. defence would help.
HMNB Clyde is already the second largest, single site employer in Scotland. Add on BAe and BMT plus Lossie and Kinross and that is a lot of jobs.
Propose to build a new base on the South side of the Clyde, renew the Drydock and base the ASW frigates there. Point out the 1000’s of new jobs, investment in infrastructure better Defence etc etc.
Then wait for the SNP to reply. No to Defence, No to jobs etc etc.
I agree ABCRodney. Having at least a modest base on the NE Scottish coast would be beneficial as it would substantially reduce transit times for RN ships to and from their patrol locations, cut fuel use, and enable more frequent/rapid sorties. It would also be consistent with the UKs newly reinvigorated pivot to the Arctic domain. It is an ~1200 km voyage from Portsmouth to the Orkney’s by sea which takes ships 2-3 days, whereas a ship based at, say Edinburgh or Inverness could be on station in a day (thinking about it somewhere near Inverness wouldn’t be a bad shout given the proximity of RAF Lossiemouth – could combine weapons stowage/support/logistics etc). We’ve built such a base in Oman, I’m sure we could build one in Scotland if the will was there and, as you say, shut the SNP up.
….looking at google Earth Invergordon appears to have an old semi-disused dock facility and a pub called the Ship Inn….what more does one need! 😀
Invergordon anchorage! Site of the famous 1931 fleet mutiny after news of 25% pay cut spread
The simple reasons for me suggesting the west and Inchgreeen in particular are that firstly our Subs are based inthe Clyde and they are at their most vulnerable when Transiting out to deep water.
Secondly we are at risk of losing the Ingreen Drydock due to development work (houses and shops) and the cost of a new Dry dock is @£500 million.
A ready workforce up the Rd at BAE.
The biggest threat isn’t the East Coast interconeectors it is the US to Europe underwater cables and the New Oil and Gas fields of the Noprth and NW of Scotland.
And it isn’t much further to go up the west coast to Orkney, but a hell of a lot prettier.
Looks as though Inchgreen Drydock has been given a new lease of life :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59303649
Well it was but since then they have failed to gain any contracts and there is now planning permission for redevelopment as a Marine Park.
The U.K. government funded the building of this dock and it is an asset that we should be using.
I agree with your point mentioning the vulnerability of all the offshore pipelines and cables , what annoys me is the Russian ships sniffing around blatantly surveying where they all are and nobody challenging them . It doesn’t bear well for the future when we will all be reliant on offshore wind farms for our electricity supply, what happens then when Russia decide to cut them and really screw us up far more than the current gas supply issues .The nord stream gas line explosions show how easy it will be to do the same with cables . Are the government so blind that they can’t see this as a potential easy sabotage for Russia to carry out .
Because those warships better serve us in the Gulf.
As much as Russia postures, there is no immediate threat from the North, where we have many allies (mostly with localised forces) and we undoubtedly have it monitored 24/7/365.
Unfortunately I agree, Wallace is full of **** in this reply, are we expecting vanguards and astute to chase Russian trawlers.
The SNP are not wrong in this assertion (a rare event from them) the UK needs armed vesells in the north of the island of Great Britain or Ireland to protect the vast energy systems and telecommunications systems that are being developed.
While it’s true that Scotland has significant energy and telecommunications systems that require protection, this does not mean that static positioning of armed vessels is the most effective strategy. Modern naval defence is about mobility, flexibility, and rapid deployment, rather than maintaining permanent positions.
The Royal Navy regularly patrols all UK waters, including those of Scotland, with various assets. These include not only surface ships, but also submarines, maritime patrol aircraft, and other assets. The presence of Astute-class attack submarines, based in Faslane, plays a pivotal role in safeguarding these areas. These submarines are among the most advanced globally, serving as the Royal Navy’s primary platform for anti-ship and anti-submarine roles.
It’s also worth noting that maritime security is not just about physical assets but also involves surveillance, intelligence, and cooperation with allies. The UK works closely with NATO and other international partners to monitor maritime activity and respond to any potential threats.
In the context of the SNP’s assertion, it’s crucial to understand that the presence of ‘armoured’ surface ships – or any type of vessel – in a specific location is not the sole or even the primary determinant of maritime security. Modern defence strategies are much more complex and multifaceted, involving a range of assets and tactics.
Would Saxa Vord be included in that list of assets present in Scotland, even though it’s technically an RAF asset?
This response raises some valid concerns about the positioning of UK naval assets and the strategic considerations involved in managing the UK’s maritime security. However, it oversimplifies and misunderstands several aspects of modern naval strategy.
Firstly, it’s essential to clarify that the presence of a ship in a specific location does not equate to its influence or operational capacity in that area. The Royal Navy operates in a highly mobile and flexible manner. While the physical presence of a ship in a location such as the Gulf may be visible, it doesn’t indicate a lack of capacity or intent to protect other areas, including Scottish waters. Modern naval strategy is about mobility, versatility, and deployment at a moment’s notice – not about permanently mooring ships in every conceivable location.
Secondly, the response seems to focus solely on surface warships and overlooks the strategic importance and capabilities of subsurface assets. Scotland is home to some of the most formidable subsurface boats in the world, including the Astute-class attack submarines based at Faslane, which serve as the Royal Navy’s primary platform for anti-ship and anti-submarine roles. These submarines can operate covertly and are not as visibly present as surface ships, but their strategic and deterrent value is significant.
Thirdly, the idea of closing one of the South Coast bases to open a new one in Scotland may seem logical from a geographic standpoint, but there are many practical and strategic considerations involved. These include but are not limited to operational needs, the impacts on military and civilian personnel, existing infrastructure investments, and the broader geopolitical context.
Lastly, it’s important to remember that defence strategy is not solely about responding to the immediate and visible threats but also about anticipating future challenges. This includes maintaining a global presence and being prepared to respond to threats and crises wherever they might occur – not just in the waters nearest to us.
While it’s healthy to have a debate about defence strategy and asset allocation, it’s crucial to base that discussion on a comprehensive understanding of how modern naval defence works. Simplistic notions about ship numbers and locations can lead to misleading conclusions.
In response to the original claim, the Royal Navy is not ‘pointing its guns in the wrong direction’. It is executing a complex, multifaceted strategy to protect the UK and its interests at home and abroad. It requires understanding the entirety of the UK’s maritime security strategy, not just focusing on a single aspect.
Well I get a response from George, thank you and I do actually agree with a lot you say but I do think it is time to look at bases and infrastructure it needs a proper debate.
I completely understand where you are coming from regarding complex strategy, flexibility and the need to respond to threats when and wherever they occur.
However all U.K. defence strategy is based on one simple premise and that is the the “Defense of the Realm” or in this case realms. And at present IMHO one the greatest threats to the integrity of the U.K is devolution and it’s consequences.
That may be a Political threat but it is real, persistent and present one; and the consequences could be horrendous.
Unfortunately 98% of the electorate do not see a Submarine, Cyber warfare, SIGINT nor capability they see a ship on the surface with weapons onboard, an RAF base and they feel safe.
Defence is vital but it is inherently expensive and spending money on it in peacetime is not voter friendly.
But people are beginning to see Russia as the real, direct threat we have at present and for good reason. Russia has hollowed out its capabilities for the last 30years with 2 notable exceptions.
Those are Nuclear Submarines (SSBN and SSGN) and their sub surface capabilities.
The SNP have a valid point, that they can use to exploit their premiss of Scotland Good Poor and down trodden and England Bad, Rich and with all the Naval Ships (forget the Subs we are talking visible political perceptions).
As to the reasons for considering shutting one of the 2 South coast Navy bases, well maybe shutting would be a step too far.
But we have already moved the SSN’s from Plymouth to Faslane and did so over the last decade as each new one commissioned. So why not move half the T26’s and leave the rest, Amphibious, RFA, DDG and CA down south ? It is visible, it is Politically astute and cuts transit time for deployment in the EEZ or escorting the SSBN when they are their most vulnerable.
Also if you had a base at Inchgreen you solve the RN CA Achilles heel as we have no accessible 24/7/365 drydock.
You mention the reasons for not doing so as “These include but are not limited to operational needs, the impacts on military and civilian personnel, existing infrastructure investments, and the broader geopolitical context”.
Well in the interest of a debate I would offer up a counter to that, and a good reason to consider actually rebasing some visible surface forces North.
What would the comparable cost be in terms of personnel, infrastructure and strategic consequences of having to move the CASD out of a Nuclear free Scotland ? HMNB Clyde, Glen Mallon and RNAD Coulport.
To put that in context the cost of refurbishing, modernising and enlarging the existing facilities when Trident took over from
Polaris was 2nd to the Channel Tunnel. And that was an existing facility.
I agree with your assertion that a fly swat answer is no answer at all. However, two points. Firstly you don’t see a ship when it is over the horizon, we don’t know what tasking is scheduled and we don’t, for instance, know where the TAPS ship is at any one time. Or what patrols are being undertaken from Lossiemouth by the P8’s or the Faslane based mine hunters.
Secondly I seem to have seen very recently that HMS Caledonia , or was it Cochrane, has been reopened at Rosyth, presumably to provide barracks/base facilities for frigates and patrol ships. The last time I was in Rosyth in a frigate, admittedly many years ago, the Forth opened straight onto the North Sea, which is where the current problem lies. And I don’t recall any tide problems for a frigate getting in and out, carriers may have a difficulty with the bridges but everything else doesn’t.
The big problem, as is stated endlessly here and elsewhere, is lack of ships and crew. Step forward David Cameron, who really must be pleased with the results of the 2010 defence review.
You are right about not knowing what is over the Horizon but when you are down the numbers we have and a countup of what is inthe public domain as depoyed it is probably a safe bet to assume nothing.
Rosyth is no longer a Naval Dockyard but is ship building and refitting, getting the carriers in there is a complete nightmare as it can only happen at the peak tides.
High to get oiver the lip of the dock and low to get under the bridges, any Russian with a tide table could work out when it will happen.
My suggestion of Inchgreen is based on many factors but fact is if we don’t grab it a sna asset it will be unusable due to developers all around it.
It has sapce for a base, exccellent access to deep water, has BAE up the Rd and has Faslane right opposite so escort is easy peasy.
Besides which it is very visible and may shut the SNP up.
What would having some frigates floating about usefully achieve? How well would they fair against a peer adversary if it came to it? There are maritime patrol aircraft and SSNs perfectly well positioned to put Russian naval assets on the bottom of the sea if the need arose.
They would do exactly what they do from Plymouth, patrol, monitor, deter, escort and intervene as needed. Just be nearer the North Atlantic, and their most likely ASW adversary.
And if you look at how Russia operates, they tend to use Asymmetric Warfare and prepare well in advance. So it is what they are up to now I’d be worried out.
So you have heard of things called submarine’s right and the are also these funny flying things called maritime patrol aircraft, and o yes these other funny flying things called unmanned aerial vehicles!
Well I used to help build parts of them so chances are I do, and know what they are useful for. We only have 6, 2 are usually in for refit or docked, 1 is usually assigned to any high profile deployment, 1 is usually doing something else which leaves 1. And believe it or not an SSN is a very expensive bit of kit to use for EEZ patrol work.
Yes we have 9 P8. Same rule of 3 leaves 6 for everything else. We do have drones but most cannot be used in Civilian Airspace.
Which I am afraid leaves Frigates which are a visible show of force, have boarding parties, sonar and can escort high value assets when they at their most vulnerable (like Subs when Transiting out of Faslane).
Personally I’d like to see more type 45 spread across the UK in future because of their ABM capability. They should be based in all areas where there is potential for a nuclear strike, not just the south. Hopefully it’d be the same for sky sabre as well.
I don’t disagree with you re the T45s, we originally had a programme for 12, got cut to 8 and then only ordered 6. Which seems insane now but in the mid 0’s Russia didn’t pose much of a threat so the numbers were intended for CAG escort work and not much else.
I have said elsewhere I’d cancel the T83 and buy a 2nd batch of T45 instead, I’d also talk to France and Italy to see if they are interested in a joint block build of more for themselves.
Whilst the T45 is a great AD asset, its ASW capacity is virtually nil. No decent sonar, no ASW Torpedos, carries a Wildcat and is a rather noisy.
For that you need a dedicated ASW Frigate and I would base a couple up in the Clyde. The reason for that is the CASD is based there and the waters of the Clyde and Irish Sea are prime candidates for sub surface interference. Those subs are literally sitting ducks when they are transiting from base to deep water and a well placed mine could cause havoc.
So IMHO it is horses for courses T45 and Frigates, plus Deep sea monitoring and MCM capability.
It really seems like the only tactic the SNP have is deceiving their voters in the most blatantly obvious ways.
Though it does seem like there’s a touch of the Russian propagandist’s cynicism in there as their lies are so detached from reality that the only response is “no, you’re wrong and stupid” which sadly feeds into the jaded Anglophobia of their supporters.
As I have said I can’t abide the SNP, but when you look at the map, the resources and where they are based and deployed any sane person has to sit and scratch their head.
There was a photo recently of a Russian “research” vessel sitting in the Moray Firth and the only folks watching it were on fishing boats. I actually know where it was and it is very close to where one of our largest offshore gas pipes comes ashore. Defenceless.
I just have to question your “wrong and stupid” bit in regards to their actual point raised.
Wrong – nope not a surface warship insight, nor one based anywhere near to cover it or anything else.
Stupid – Oh god yes, total eejits 98% of the time, but surprisingly not in this case.
IMHO this is an own goal ⚽️
Are they mixing up armoured for armed?
Yep looks like, but they do go onto explain it is surface fighting ships.
Where do they go on to explain this?
Reported in the Scotsman as actually said “Surface combatants” which is pretty well the same thing,
But you can listen to what was said yourself. She said armoured, armoured is also on Hansard…
Interesting, just read Hansard and yep you are right he only said “Armoured Surface Ship” and the Scotsman reinterpreted it.
We may all find such an anachronistic phrase funny but is he actually wrong ? Although we do not put Armoured decks, belts etc in modern Warships most have some forms of armour on board be that Ballistic, Composite or Kevlar around the sensitive areas.
We are actually fitting Plasan Composite armour to the T26 and I’d be surprised if we weren’t doing similar on T31,
Oh and I did get the subtle dig at the SNP Gender reorientation policy by calling Patrick Grady “she” 😆
Also, no it wasn’t. https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/uk-minister-ben-wallace-mocks-snp-mp-for-saying-there-is-no-armoured-warship-in-scotland-4143400
Yeh they are not the sharpest bunch.
The SNP ignorant, disingenuous, insincere, and selfish?!
You don’t say!
Nationalists of all colours are ultimately all the same, and the SNP are different.
In other news the SNP shockingly reveals a total lack of quinqueremes permanently based in Scottish waters, and stores of Greek fire at a record low.
We have not stocked up since Churchill ordered it in 1940. 😀
Despite our successes at Olympic rowing events I suspect our quinqueremes are undermanned too…
Apart from this showing the insane level of sea blindness that our county now has it does raise a very interesting point…
If we want the public of the United Kingdom to support a strong navy, then we actually need to ensure they have a strong link to the navy….yes it’s a very good strategy to have forward based ships in the Middle East, it’s efficient to have a very small number of navel bases and all the frigates together etc…but this does mean that the county does not “see the Royal Navy” and people don’t care about things that passionately about things that are distant and do not affect their lives…
This means they will not vote or lobby to support the navy
It also means that only people living in a very small part of the county can practically become a reservist….limiting how the navy can access lots of professions sailors or other professional types can join the reserves.
Personally I think there is a case for the bulk of the rivers 1 and rivers 2 to be based away from the two south coast ports.
I did think that a solution to the dinghies in the channel and general coastal patrols was to base the river class ships at local ports and man them with RNR personnel along with the URNU vessels. Weapons, munitions etc can be loaded from the main naval establishments and crews can be rotated from regional RNR bases using the two weeks annual training requirement.
Key thing is that people join the reserves if they are likely to do something useful regularly. Increasing the number of reserve units and giving them an actual vessel to man would boost recruitment and also free up.full time manpower for the major vessels
Given the investigation going on in Scotland you would think these I’ll informed individuals would crawl under a rock somewhere. The greatest threat to them right now is not Russian ships!
How about some Corvette class , based at civilian ports around the UK , visible presence, local pride , with rapid response to home waters .
There’s a handful of relics on the seabed in Scapa Flow which once may have qualified as ‘armoured ships’. I bet he never thought of that!
We do actually still have 3 and one is a short distance from Scotland. Warrior, Caroline and Belfast.
There are currently 20 NATO vessels carrying out exercises off the coast of Scotland.