A British RC-135 ‘Rivet Joint’, an electronic surveillance aircraft, has conducted a patrol near Israel, the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.

The role of the aircraft is to conduct electronic surveillance and gather intelligence.

The deployment of these aircraft to this area is unusual, although not unprecedented and not surprising, given previous statements of support for Israel from the UK Government.

UK ships and aircraft deploying to waters close to Israel

It should be noted that these flights are not secret, the aircraft themselves are transmitting their location in the knowledge that services like FlightRadar24 will show their location. If it was a secret, I would not know.

What does the RC-135W do?

According to the Royal Air Force website, the RC-135W Rivet Joint is a dedicated electronic surveillance aircraft that can be employed in all theatres on strategic and tactical missions. Its sensors ‘soak up’ electronic emissions from communications, radar and other systems.

“RC-135W Rivet Joint employs multidiscipline Weapons System Officer (WSO) and Weapons System Operator (WSOp) specialists whose mission is to survey elements of the electromagnetic spectrum in order to derive intelligence for commanders.”

The Royal Air Force say that Rivet Joint has been deployed extensively for Operation Shader and on other operational taskings. It had been formally named Airseeker, but is almost universally known in service as the RC-135W Rivet Joint.

Some general uses of the RC-135W include:

  • Signal Intelligence (SIGINT): The aircraft collects electronic signals, such as communications, radar, and other systems, to gather intelligence on adversaries’ capabilities and intentions.
  • Strategic Deterrence: By conducting visible reconnaissance flights near areas of interest, the UK sends a clear message to potential adversaries that their activities are being closely monitored. This serves as a deterrent, helping to maintain regional stability and prevent conflicts.
  • Support to Diplomacy: Intelligence gathered by the RC-135W can play a crucial role in informing diplomatic efforts and shaping foreign policy. By providing accurate and timely information, the aircraft helps decision-makers navigate complex geopolitical situations.

The UK operates three RC-135W Rivet Joint aircraft.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
Twitter

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

196 COMMENTS

  2. Niche capability only matched by the Americans. Key enables like the RC135 are what sets us apart from the majority of allied Armed Force’s.

    • Simple matter of prudence for MoD to schedule multiple RC-135W sorties to assist in developing SIGINT portion of current ISR frame of reference. This may change to an ISTAR requirement, if evacuation of British and Allied citizens from Gaza, Israel, Lebanon and possibly Syria are contested by party(ies) seeking leverage through hostage taking. Noted that P-8 had previously been dispatched to area w/ RFA Argus and Lyme Bay, a company of RM and other unspecified ‘surveillance tools.’ Possibly Predator/(Reaper?) out of Akrotiri? Presume RM practices hostage rescue/extraction on a regular basis? Would not be surprised if elements of SAS/SBS have been placed on standby. This op could be straightforward if everyone plays nicely, but could become a very sporting proposition if they do not. 🤔😳

        • I believe the U.S. have always funded and supported the ISTAR capabilities in Cyprus, the US was a major influence in the UK staying in Cyprus and maintaining sovereignty over an portion of it against the wishes of the Cypriot government.

          There are a couple of the inescapable and interesting tensions around decolonisation…

          1)the US are were fanatical supporters of European power’s decolonisation (even making it difficult for European powers) unless the U.S. needed access to that land and it may have fallen into a government that was within the soviet circle of influence.

          2) the UN decolonisation special committee has almost zero interest in parts of Europe that were colonised by other powers.

          • It is a revelation to me that the US had anything to do with the British Government’s decision to keep two Sovereign Base Areas after the UK granted Cyprus independence. Is this really a fact?

          • Hi graham yes the loss of the two bases in Cyprus was beyond the pale to the US and Henry Kissinger basically tied the UK in knots to ensure we maintained the two sovereign bases after Cypriot independence..the Treaty of Nicosia was very much about binding the UK in perpetuity into running the two bases..put in simple terms we cannot leave them even if we wanted to. Kissinger doubled down on this by really supporting and green lighting the Turkish occupation of part of the island in 1974..Basically the terms of the 1960 treaty mean that the UK cannot give up the bases unless all signatories agree..the other signatories are Cyprus and turkey…and they will agree when hell freezes over..in the meantime the US has always funnelled money to support the bases as well as having staff on the bases..this is pretty much confirmed from various sources. It was at the time less about the airbase and more about the listen post…but now it’s about both and making sure Russia does not get a foothold and be able to use the island as a strategic asset.

          • What makes you think the UK was ever likely to lose the SBAs that it had wanted and negotiated in the Treaty of Nicosia?

            BTW, Greece is also a signatory to the Treaty.

            What has the Turkish invasion of 1974 got to do with this? You suggest that Kissinger fomented that invasion, somehow to keep the British bases? I don’t get that.

          • I have responded graham with a full set of references and academic papers that showed Kissinger basically forced the UK position in Cyprus as well as knowing that Turkey was going to invade and that the British government also new Turkey was going to invade and that Kissinger pressured the UK in staying in Cyprus when it wanted to leave and basically supported Turkey in its actions.

          • Thanks Jonathan, Seems very odd to me that the UK would have secured the 2 x SBAs by Treaty in 1960 but then just a few short years later wanted to abandon them, until Callaghan did a U-turn during the Mar 1974- Apr 76 period he was Foreign Sec. What was the logic in wanting to get rid?

          • The Uk had a few wavers..the first was really in the 60 treaty….it was in half a mind about securing the to SBAs mainly due to money and commitments with the UK being skint…the US at that time really wanted the UK to keep presence in Cyprus as it did not trust the new Cypriot government not to fall under the sway of the Soviet Union and refuse access..the 1974 waver was that the fact the UK government knew Turkey was going to invade and did not want its forces stuck between the two warring sides…and so had decided to pull out before Kissinger had a conversation with Callaghan about Cold War priorities…

            below really is one of my favourite quote extracts as it’s in the language of a LSE Erasmus professor of political history, I just love the bit where he says “the British government is clearly shown as consistently and obsequiously submitting to Kissinger” ( around Cyprus).

            “Large extracts are provided from key documents, and the British government—whose role in independent Cyprus was always to play off Greek and Turkish Cypriots against each other to secure possession of the British bases there (more than half the treaty establishing Cyprus’s independence is related to these bases)—is clearly shown as consistently and obsequiously submitting to Kissinger. For example, after informing the US Secretary of State that Britain in the aftermath of the crisis preferred to withdraw from the bases, Kissinger protested that this would undermine Western interests in the Middle East. Callaghan, the British Foreign Secretary, then replied: ‘We shall not in present circumstances proceed with our preferred policy of withdrawing from the bases altogether,’ adding that Kissinger’s argument was the ‘determining consideration’. Callaghan does not emerge well from the book. Mallinson proves conclusively that he denied to a parliamentary committee that he had foreknowledge of the Turkish invasions, when in fact the documents demonstrate that he did know.”

          • Thanks, very interesting. I served in UNFICYP in Nicosia for 6 months in 1981. The mission and UN dispositions having been drastically changed (from 1963) since the 1974 Turkish invasion.

            Loved the country and had several holidays since, in the north and the south.

            Would have been insane to give up the SBAs for whatever reason.

            I have some issues about the length of time that Callaghan had his prior knowledge about the Turkish invasion. Makarios fell out with the Junta in Athens writing an inflammatory letter on 2 Jul 74. Theis triggered the Greek Cypriot National Guard to overthrew Makarios on 15 Jul, who was lucky to escape with his life, Nicos Sampson being installed in place of the Makarios.
            The British Defence Attache in Ankara sent two signals 161150Z Jul and 170955Z Jul informing London about Turkish military preparations for invasion. The Turks invaded just before dawn on 20th July.
            Thus Callaghan had less than 4 days notice of the possibility of a Turkish invasion at best. There is no way that two major British bases could have been abandoned in those 4 days, in order to avoid our forces being stuck between the two warring sides. Also, what if we had abandoned the SBAs and Turkey had not invaded? It would have been humiliating and not in accordance with what a Guarantor power should do.

      • All those extras will be pretty logical, yes. When there was the Terry Wait hostage scenario a rescue was planned as the intelligence was available but I read the politicians got cold feet and cancelled it.

        • A remarkable man, maintaining sanity through nearly 5 years in captivity.

          My favourite Waite quote is about remembering that opponents in confrontation are human, too, no matter what the differences are and that that must be considered at the end of any confrontation:

          “At the end it is necessary to construct an exit door through which you can leave together.” (Paraphrase)

          How that applies to current wars, or to the societies that are behind the wars (or held hostage by the groups at war), remains to be seen.

          • Didnt Waites background , military intell, before working for the CoE indicate he was an undercover asset.

            Not unexpected as the secret services use journo, NGOs, business and other groups to hide their people

          • Cover story!
            It seems the earlier version that I remember has been altered to this one. His capture was all about the other side saw him as an undercover too.
            Thats not to say hes done remarkable work

      • The special forces hostage rescue teams are always on stand by.
        Gaza would probably be one of the worst places to try hostage rescue from.

        • I’m not sure it would even be possible…there is a reason Isreal is undertaking a very significant mobilisation before going into Gaza.

          • Probably need permission from Israelis, substance back up forces. Helicopters have a good chance of being spotted as soon as they approach then being shot down. Going in from the sea has the same problems of being spotted then a fire fight in and out against heavy weapons.
            Also depends where the hostages are located. The further in Gaza the harder it gets.
            Then trying to rescue the some hostages alive and get them back to an extraction point. They may be injured, immobile making moving them difficult.
            Frankly it’s a near impossible mission.
            Perhaps when the IDF forces start invading that may provide enough destruction but that’s a slight possibility.
            I’m doubtful many of the hostages are still alive.

          • I suspect not, these are people who have a profoundly warped view of religion life and death…with religion being more important than the other two by a county Mile unfortunately. I suspect Isreal has already written them off, this is not a rescue operation it’s a removing Hamas as a threat and as the governing power of Gaza. Effectively it’s about the greater good of the majority of Israel’s citizens not about individuals. Sadly some things transcend the safety and well being of individuals and the safety of the majority of those you are duty bound save take priority( and I say that as a person who has dedicated their working life to saving individuals lives no matter who they are and how much I may have dislike their views and actions, and I have saved some profoundly unpleasant people as well as the truly innocent..they all got my maximum effort..but in some situation’s I’m trained to not give maximum effort and instead triage brutality…).

          • you can’t simply put it’s all Hamas to blame Israel plays a massive part in provocation, discrimination, genocide of the Palestinian people every single day.

          • Actually I can and do…I’m perfectly happy to separate out the crap activities of the Israeli government after it’s spent it’s entire existence trying to defend itself from powers that want to utterly destroy it..from Hamas which simply wants to remove every Jew from every part of Palestine..and is actually happy to see every Jew be they innocent child, mother, wife, grandparent ect dead (They see every Jew in the holy lands as a combatant and any Jewish state in the holly lands as an affront to Islam..that must be punished with death even unto their own deaths) and are actually quite willing to sacrifice the entire population of Gaza to see it done ( please just look at the charter of Hamas…they are brutal Islamist who would personally kill you and your family if you ever found yourself in their power for even a moment).

            To fully understand the difference and what is happening you need a profundity knowledge and understanding form history and geopolitics of the holly land going back over 2000 years.

            The Jewish state of Isreal has been basically conquered over and over..the Assyrians in 720bc. Egyptians in 609BC, 600 BC Babylonian empire, Persian empire in 339BC, Roman Empire in 1BC with after years of war saw the depopulation Jews and Jewish Israel..then under the eastern Roman Empire ( Byzantines) the forced removal of the Jews to allow the expansion of Christianity..then the crusades in which most of the remnants of Jewish Israel were sold into slavery, killed or forced out..then you had the Mameluke period after the destruction of the Christian crusader kingdoms in which the region had intense settlement by Muslim populations then the ottoman’s empire from the 15c ( which was the only time of any real stability and safety for the remnants Jewish population of what had been the state of Israel..

            All the while the displaced Jewish population that had scattered across Europe either through slavery or escaping the constant attempts at various ethnic cleansing in the Levant suffer almost constant Progroms across Europe for a thousand years ( from England in 1190 to Ukraine and Poland in 1919) a thousand years of never knowing If you would be slaughtered by your neighbours…the progroms of the early 20c and rise of even great anti semitism than the last thousand years..killed well over a hundred thousand Jews and saw the idea of Zionism born…..with the holocaust and the extermination of 6 millions Jews facilitated by almost every nation in Europe, even Britain to its shame refused sanctuary with most European nations being active participants in giving over the Jewish populations to the fires of extermination.

            Then finally the world decided that the 2000 years of persecution and hatred of the the Jews could only end with securing the rebirth of the state of Israel…with the UN mandating the devision of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state….under the British mandate…now apart from a few Zionist extremists driven essentially mad by the 20c pogroms and holocaust..the new state of Israel completely agreed with the creation of two states..one Arab one Jews with Jerusalem becoming an international city owned by every nation on earth….the Arab ( Egypt, transJordan, republic of Syria ) states refused a two state solution and and Jerusalem being an international city and made it clear they would invade and destroy Israel as soon as the British mandate came to an end..as Britain did not want to get sucked into a conflict with the new Arab states it withdrew from the mandate and the Arab nations immediately attacked with the aim of the utter destruction of the newly rebuild Jewish state of Israel….this new threat to the Jews came only 3 years after the horror of the final solution I. 1948..yet another progom backed by every Arab state and their armed forces…with the UN and the world standing back..thus sparking 60 years of constant Arab Israeli wars…but remember this the Arab nations started it all with an avowed aim to destroy the state of Israel..some of them still hold that belief…the Islamic movements of Hamas, Hezbollah and Sinai province ( IS) all hold to that belief and will never come to the peace table..infact its in the Hamas found document that they will never come to the peace table and the only peace is an Islamist state across the levant….that init that is their final solution to the Jewish problem…

            Israel on the other hand was always in agreement with having a two state solution…only through constant attack have they been more and more focused on the fact that it’s impossible to have that and be secure….

            do I agree with everything Israel does no..but would any nation state in the western world do the same if faced with the same level of threat…I put it to you…America and its allies the UK and others invaded and conquered two nations for a threat that was not as existential as that faced by Israel…so yes if a close neighbour of ours was a government with the express aim of the destruction of our nation…then we would embargo it,seal the boarders and refuse passage of its shipping if it then constantly fired rockets at civilian targets day after day year after year..we would respond..if it the. Finally sent a swarm of heavily armed extremists across the boarder with the aim of killing anyone who they could, murdered over a thousand of our population most of which were unarmed woman and children who were shot down in cold blood…mutilated and then followed that with the abduction of children displaying their captives on social media..what do you think the British government would do…we would tear that nation apart with everything we could and completely destroy its government…we have done so for far less..

            The simple truth is the world has profound double standards in regards to what most nations would do and what we expect Israel to do…our Jewish populations see this….if it happened to any other country the brutal mass slaughter close up and personal (including mutilating the dead) of over a thousand people and abductions of hundreds would enact horror and mass protest against the perpetrators ..but instead protests are held in support of Gaza ( run by hamas) citizens of this county gloat at the deaths..

            do I regret every death yes..do I think there is any moral equivalency between Hamas/any other Islamist group and the Israeli armed forces..no I bleeding well don’t.

            read the history of Israel, read the avowed aims of the islamists vs the avowed aims of the Isreal government and that of the secular fighters for a Palestinian state…think what it means to be Jewish…think about the profound hatred of Hamas and Hezbollah…and remember the difference between an organisation like Fatah who are freedom fighters for an Arab state..who were and are willing to talk peace and compromise to develop a two state solution and the rabid evil that are organisations like Hamas..( yes they are evil..they will happily kill anyone , men women, children..Christian, Jew, Muslim, if you refuse in any way their rabid religious world view, you are not human and deserving of life and they will never ever stop in their aim to destroy Israel no matter what Israel does or does not do).

            finally don’t get me wrong I think the Isreali state has and does go to far sometimes ( but not as far as other states have gone even our own)…but to compare the two… Hamas and the Israelis state and equate moral equivalence is to show a lack of profundity around what drives them and likely future outcomes…how can Israel ever allow Gaza to exist without walls caging it in when Gazas ruling organisationS sole aim is the destruction of Israel…

            Even Egypt cannot tolerate Hamas and Locks Gaza away…because the moment the border with Egypt is open Hamas start to send fighters and weapons into the Sinai to support their IS brothers in Sinai Province to attack the state of Egypt and its population ( they are not Islamist enough for Hamas and IS to tolerate).

          • Nice history, but you omitted the Macedonian invasion under Alexander & his successors, who also royally hacked the Jews off. They were under Persian control a bit ealier than 339BC too.

          • “How can Israel ever allow Gaza to exist without walls caging it in when Gazas ruling organisationS sole aim is the destruction of Israel…?

            Do you do anything besides post extremely long-winded genocidal excuses on this website since the conflict broke out?

          • Israel have a chance to make things better for the Gaza Strip if they do the operation properly. It’s not off to great start with all the civilian casualties and destruction.
            I had thought the land invasion would have started by now. Perhaps they aren’t actually going to go into all of Gaza.
            Most important of all will be getting some kind of effective government in place quickly. That is difficult as Hamas have killed many of the opposition.
            Hopefully Israel puts up the money for reconstruction and employ a large number of locals. Getting decent housing rebuilt with functioning infrastructure and allowing businesses to start and grow and employing the citizens of Gaza makes a big difference to their lives and happy people are less likely to take extreme views.
            Setting out a plan of how the 2 areas can live together with steps of how that will be accomplished May give both sides something to look forward to and work together on. Difficult in practice but continuing the current path is not good for either side.
            Clear goals for everyone to get behind.
            The clearing out of Hamas is going to be a difficult task and will leave a power vacuum. Making sure that vacuum doesn’t turn bad is a high priority

          • At a very minimum Israel needs to reestablish a democratic government in Gaza. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that won an election 16 years ago.

            It can’t just blow the s**t out of Gaza and build an even bigger wall. It has responsibilities for territories it occupies just as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

          • That’s not the best examples Jim…hardly models of what to do….Afghanistan I would say had some validity behind it as the US was trying to destroy the safe harbour of an organisation that tried to decapitate the US…Iraq 2…was an iffy war at best…the whole weapons of mass destruction thing….well Russia has enough weapons of mass destruction to end the human race…but we never invaded them….

            The reality of the wall and exclusion zone around Gaza was more about Israel not dealing with Hama…basically is was set up as part of the peace settlement between the PLO ( what would become fatah) and Israel in that a fence would separate the Palestinian authority’s area and Israel..this was to prevent the movement of militants in 1994..after Israel’s full pull out of Gaza in 2005 and the Hamas destruction of Fatah Israel built a stronger and stronger wall…..it was that or a full scale war with Hamas in the city of Gaza….its worth noting before the first security fence in 1994 Israel suffered constant terror attacks after these stopped…and it moved to rockets.

          • Indeed, the rebuilding will be import as will ensuring a secular Palestinian movement such as Fatah can hold power and control the islamists, that will mean decades of a better life….but first Hamas have to be removed from power and that will be brutal for both Israel and Arab alike.

            The sad thing is it could have been so different if Fatah had taken control of Gaza and driven out Hamas and if the Israeli government could then have used that to drive down and control its radical Zionists and disband the settlements in the West Bank..so strengthing Fahat even more..into a gradual circle of positive growth… we could have now been firmly in a stable two state solution…although I think Iran is always going to be an issue as it will keep feeding and growing the Islamist movement..which in turn strengthens the radical Zionist movement.

            unfortunately with a movement as evil as Hama controlling and hiding behind the population of Gaza there are no good options….every move anyone makes either causes tragedy and strengthens Hamas, just strengthens Hamas or destroys Hamas but is catastrophic to the populace of Gaza and the wider security and stability of the levant….

          • It would end up resembling the black hawk down debacle. Way too densely populated with enemies popping up all around. Nightmare territory for any sort of operation.

          • Difference is Blackhawk down had a few platoons with no armour.

            The Israelis are calling up their reserves and will have 500,000 with all the artillery and armour they need and complete control of the air.

            It’s likely to be very messy for the Palestinians.

          • I was referring to any plan for our (or anyone else’s) special forces trying to extract their nationals from Gaza.

            Israel will most likely go in with a very heavy iron first flattening everything in sight.

        • I get a bit bored with the doom and gloom merchants who often frequent this site. I’m more of a pragmatist …. cut our cloth accordingly and all that, but there are some decisions that trouble me. This situation makes me think NATO should have its own fleet of Rivet Joints, with all members contributing, just as it should Air Tankers and not just AWACS, so we can continue apace with Rivet Joint monitoring over Ukraine. As you say, SB, the US do have a fleet of these but any distraction away from Ukraine will inevitably mean fewer Rivet Joints over there. Mad Vlad will love it but I dare say he is behind some of this in the Middle East; a distraction. It kinda also underlines the point about a fleet of 3 (E-7s is another point). Allowing for maintenance and failures, only 1 asset realistically available at any one time, so a re-tasking elsewhere is detrimental the the Ukraine mission. Flight time and fuel costs, given current workload, there’s some merit in basing Rivet Joints at Akrotiri although appreciate there’s a lot more to it than just stopping over there to refuel ….. spares, stores, hanger maintenance and workshops, crews etc.

          • If is more to do with how sensitive what goes on onboard is.

            A lot of NATO members couldn’t be trusted on board.

            Also you don’t want everyone to know what we know and how we know it otherwise they can mitigate.

            So having RIVET in others hands is a really bad idea.

          • Rivet Joint is a capability the US has only shared with the UK. The UK and USA are 5 Eyes members, European NATO is not.
            There is a big difference and there lies the problem.

            Some European NATO members are lower level partners in 5 Eyes but do not get the same level of intell access.
            It is an anglosphere alliance, and to my mind must remain so.

            Re RAF Rivet. Beyond the maintenance side, a lot or most of the supporting infrastructure for Rivet Joint capability is in the area that they are based.

      • Dont know about ‘clapped out’
        Airframes can be bought back to near zero time
        the military flies a fraction of the use that airlines do- never used for an airline
        The engines and electronics are all brand new or overhauled

        • Worth remembering that commercial end of life is a blend of sustainment costs and the probable saving offered by new generation aircraft. It’s very rare to actually exhaust the airframe service hours. Engine sustainment must be to OEM service standards so an expected cost depending largely on usage hours.
          Fly safe..

          • Since they are essentially pressure vessels, like submarines it’s cycles that wear out airframes, not hours (pressurization and depressurization).

            Commercial airliners fly up to ten sectors per day. Military aircraft that don’t even fly every day will last for many decades, no problem.

      • Clapped out? Wow you need to look past the airframe and look at its capabilities mate! One line throw away daily mail special comments do you no service.

      • In UKUSA, or 5 Eyes, intelligence is shared, with a few minor exceptions like UK Eyes only and the American version which I forget, NOFOR possibly?
        So the reality that we have a single asset there is moot, as the take from sorties by the US feed directly into Cheltenham and other places.

    • Ukraine ? Doesnt the October Surprise from Hamas tell you that leave a gap in capability and the opposition will exploit it

      These planes should be in air in the coast near Norway and the arctic or Baltic and the Russian submarine bases.

      Sunak shouldn’t be trying to play Blair and getting into ME wars

      • Agree, I want nothing to do with Either side in this, got enough problems in Europe without getting involved in a 50 year war we’re both sides are genocidal maniacs.

      • It is about not leaving a power vacuum. If the UK and US are not there then other ‘powers’ will appear to fill the void.

        I agree we don’t want to get directly involved but we need to protect our interests and also know *exactly* what us going on?

      • The problem is, that others are trying to explode the Middle East..geopolitical tensions could lead to a very significant regional war ( nation state vs nation state) the U.S. is not going to able to stay out of that if Isreal ends up in a fight for its life against other nation states…the problem is some of those nation states are western allies…so a Isreal Jordan conflict would be a golden end for Iran, Russia and china…this is geopolitical movements rite large. If the US is focused on the Middle East it’s not focused on Eastern Europe and it’s not focused on the china seas…or it’s focus becomes defuse…

        interestingly I alway thought that Taiwan would ignite a swath of fires across the globe via contagion…but maybe you could see a CCP Vs ROC war happening because lots of fires across the globe weaken US focus on the China Seas…

        Everything is linked and we and Europe are impacted by every fire that starts across the globe…WW2 was not a single point war…it was a contagion of conflicts that started with the war between the central powers and allies in Europe.the Cold War itself was simply an extension of the conflict started in Central Europe in 1914….it was in reality a stagnation of that conflagration.. that started in 1914.

    • It sniffs the entire EW spectrum and paints a map for the MOD. They can see exactly what Israel is doing, not just taking their word for it.

      • Good point, I can see the P8 there is support of Israel with Rivet Joint monitoring comms from both sides for war crimes.might be the USA asked us to perform that mission so they don’t have to.

          • Yes more reason for us not to support any side. In fairness the USA does not recognise any form of international law. It’s never ratified even the law of the sea which it’s keeps berating China for breaking.

        • The Israeli’s managed to drop 6,000 bombs on Gaza in a few days. They either have one hell of a C4ISTAR capability beyond even the USA or there is a bit of indiscriminate targeting going on. Just because Hamas a terrorist organisation attacked them does not mean they should indiscriminately target civilians and there are already more dead in Gaza than in Israel and that’s before the ground invasion begins.

      • Unfortunately Secretary Blinken has been unconditional in support for Israel so some there may read that as having a free hand and not the responsibility expected by ICRC. The former would clearly not be in Israeli long term interests and reaching a sustainable peaceful future.
        Outrage is not a good base for planning.

  7. Much more might be needed soon. Rumour has it Italy might be preparing light carrier Cavour, FREMM frigates, tanker Etna, one of the LPD Saint to help evacuating UNIFIL troops in case things go south and UN retires UNIFIL. Not enough for all those troops, Spanish and French navy on the ready too

      • And with the USAF AAR assets in that area it makes even less sense to go through the hassle of forward deploying all the personnel and kit

        • I know RAF Rivets are fitted for boom AAR but not for probe and drogue. So do RAF Rivets actually do boom AAR? Are they trained for it?

          • I believe USAF tankers from Mildenhall refuel them upon take off over the North Sea tanker trail area on most, or every mission?

          • I wonder why the voyager is flying near by. Neither the P8 or the river joint can get fuel from it.
            Must be for other assets, unless it has some other useful kit on board.

          • Oh?
            Possibly in troop transport role?
            Or, I’d read they’re used in some way in a comms relay data link role?

          • Drones should be getting sought for data relay. Seems a rather expensive solution to passing data.

          • Why not, if can do it while on another tasking? I might be wrong on this, though I’m sure I’d read the RAF was looking at other non combatant platforms to put comms on.

          • Well if it’s doing other tasks then yes. But if a comms relay was needed for 24 hours over a certain area that’s a few voyagers. I don’t even know if a drone has the power requirements to do that kind of task?

          • Defo, a waste of an expensive asset then!

            The MoD bought 3 Zephyr that were suggested could do that sort of work, but no idea what happened to them.

  10. It went there after doing some Ukrainian/Black Sea surveillance over Romania and Bulgaria.
    It returned to Waddo.
    It is unlikely to use Akrotiri,more likely Crete, where the USAF already deploys it’s RC 135 and KC135 aircraft!

  11. Enough is enough. It is time to bring the Israeli parliamentary democracy into NATO and give them the same protection we have. They are far more worthy of membership than some corrupt eastern european countries I can mention.

    • There is way too much going on both internally and externally to just allow them into NATO. Pretty sure their hand would be permanently parked over the big red article 5 button.

      • Fully aware of the atrocities that Hamas has committed, which is abhorrent behaviour on their part. However, i’ve also seen enough footage of children being pulled out of rubble in Gaza over the last few days. Evil met with evil isn’t the answer.

        We should support Israel in combatting the terrorist organisations that mean the innocent Israeli civilians harm. That doesn’t mean we should support them cutting off water supply or bombing civilian buildings.

        There has to also be a point where the line is drawn on what Article 5 is there to actually combat against. Should it be invoked every time there is a terrorist attack?

        • Hi Aaron. To be clear I don’t support the bombing of buildings and the collateral damage to innocent kids. I appreciate this maybe a difficult analogy, however might there be parallels to Bomber Command flattening Belin and the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokoyo?

          Again not my choice, however I’m not the one having my people murdered by Hamas. It’s easy for us to make perfectly rational comments “Evil met with evil isn’t the answer. “, but we don’t know what we don’t know. Experience shapes people and hardens hearts. Thy say in war the first casualty is truth. I think that’s wrong. The first casualty (sadly) is our humanity.

        • Well said. When Hamas has been rooted out of Haza the violence needs to stop. Biden has said that on stabilisation of the current situation there should be a path to a 2 state solution. We are in this situation because in 1948 the UN only did half the job.

      • George, we should also not lose sight that Israel withdrew from Gaza and handed it back to the Palestinians. They then promptly elected a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them. They reap what they sow.

        • Except that the reason for withdrawing from Gaza was an experimental “land for peace deal.” We can see how successful that has been. But that is OK. As every scientist will tell you, negative experimental results are valid too. It is time to wipe the slate clean and return Gaza to it’s rightful owners. The triumphant IDF.
          Drive the terrorists and their supporters out of the place once and for all. Where they go is irrelevant. Paradise if they choose (best option) or one of the five nations that attacked Israel in 1948 would do, Syria for example. If they agreed to behave, even becoming willing contributors to the greater Israeli democracy would be acceptable. But only for those with no known jihadi tendencies and willing to be tagged with trackers for a while.

    • Israel just suspended its Supreme Court, its democratic routes are shallow at best. Do we need another NATO member that pays lip service to liberal Democratic values.

      • Really? I can see nothing in Haaretz, Jerusalem Post or any of the international press, Reuters etc. (Not even al Jazeera.) Do you have a link?

        Even a potential reduction in its powers caused demonstrations earlier this year, and Netanyahu backed down. As I understand it, the Supreme Court is currently holding hearings as to whether the government has the right to infringe. Its suspension would be Gaza sized news, as many reservists have said they will no longer serve if the Government neuters the Supreme Court.

        • Well hopefully if some small good can come out of this dreadful debacle, it will finally be the end of Netanyahu’s rule and someone more pragmatic and constructive can take over. That certainly seems to be a popular opinion in Israel right now.

          Nothing is going to change until that happens, just more escalation and provocation on many sides as we have seen for the last decade. Fatah are weak and corrupt but they are at least willing to work with Israel, and Saudi/Jordan would definitely support such reconciliation efforts.

          If some sort of compromise can be achieved in the West Bank, this will do much to restore Arab-Israeli relations across the middle east, so Hamas (and indeed Iran) would be left out on a limb.

      • Suspended for good national security reasons. It’s their country to do with as they please, bought and paid for with IDF blood. The same type of supreme court reform will probably happen during January 2025 in the USA. If the 2024 elections are not tampered with.

        I’d rather have Israel and it’s military might in NATO than some corrupt former soviet oligarchy. They are after all our natural allies.

        • Israeli Supreme court hasnt been suspended. Netanyahu was just reversing the status quo back to where parliament was supreme not the court as was the case maybe 20 years ago
          this is how it works in Britain, as should be in Israel too as they have the Westminster system with no constitution.
          Dont like Netanyahu , too bad, it was his election policy. But I can see Hamas has destroyed his political career as the attacks were on his watch

          • Yes he changed a rule and for good reason.

            Bibi Netanyahu is a true senior statesman and the right guy for the job. The world has not been so supportive of Israel and their plight than right now. Therefore he can elevate himself and his career even further by exacting revenge with extreme prejudice. Ending Hamas and returning Gaza to Israeli rule. It is time for Bibi to revert back to the mentality of his army days and be very decisive. With any luck, Iran will become directly involved and US public opinion will force Biden to apply some severe sanctions or even unleash the navy to make airstrikes. Israel may even strike Iranian nuclear plants but now I’m getting ahead of myself. Wishful thinking again.

            Usurper Biden and his globalist pro terrorist pro Iranian cronies will be extremely upset but so be it. Of course Trump will benefit from all of this, helping him win re-election. Then Iran, Russia and CCP China are in deep trouble. Even more wishful thinking.

            Only one thing is for certain. The world geopolitical picture is rapidly changing, with numerous possible outcomes.

          • Graham, when you say it like that it sounds much worse than I intend. I dislike all four of the USSR founding soviet republics equally as much. Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Transcaucasia. The later splitting into other federal socialist republics sometime afterwards. Why do I feel this way?

            I’m glad you asked! They gave the world it’s first communist block of countries and tried to export their marxist filth to the rest of the world. Leading to revolutions, proxy wars and countless millions of unnecessary deaths. The first victims of communism are always their own people. Those who do not want that political system. The punishment for anti communist thinking in the USSR being arrest by the NKVD/KGB and political re-education. Meaning a good beating, the Gulag and then worked to death.

            I served during the Cold War and without going into detail, was fully invested in the ideological fight. I studied it extensively, much more than other Cold War veterans I know. That too should be clear. To me communism is a little like islam in one respect. The more a western Judeo-Christian, democratically minded person learns about it. The more abhorrent and disgusting it appears.

            That said, like many others at the end of the Cold War. When the rotten to the core USSR collapsed, under the weight of it’s own inherent contradictions and corruption. I was full of hope, that all the Warsaw Pact nations could become democracies and friends. In time leading to military alliances. Holding hands and skipping off through the tall grass, making sweet … etc etc.
            Yes, I too am prone to the occasional Kumbaya moment. So, true hatred is not correct.

            Oh how wrong I was! To think it possible that any of the four founding partners in crime, could easily make the transition to westernisation. I was equally wrong, to assume our western nations would do everything possible to facilitate the transition. Kumbaya bubble well and truly burst!

            The collective “we” have given so much to Ukraine to hinder Russia. If in the 1990’s we had invested half as much time, money and resources into helping the USSR and Warsaw Pact, to recover from communism. The world would be a different place today. So perhaps the best way to describe my position is severely and whole heartedly disappointed. To the point of anger. Grrrr! It seems my PTSD has more triggers than first thought.

            Graham my friend, I did not intend to write so much. But once started, it just all came flowing out. Nice to get it off my chest. I’ll see you in Valhalla.

          • To be fair to Ukraine they were actually conquered by the Soviets….in the Ukraine soviet war 1917 to 1921…the very reason Ukraine has such an issue with and unfortunate links to the third Reich was it was the only way Ukraine saw a way to fight the Bolsheviks….it was a conquered nation under the iron fist of an ideology that basically said comply completely or die.

          • Ukraine has always had various factions within it’s shifting borders. The 1917 to 1921 revolution/war more accurately described as the Red vs White Russian Empire Civil War. One of the usual revolutions and civil wars that always come with communism/marxism takeovers.

            Ukrainians fought on both sides, those who opposed the Red Bolsheviks were the White Russians and included Ukrainian Nationalists. Needless to say the Reds won and purged the hive. Not even bothering with “political re-education.” Just slaughtering the White forces. They are a barbaric primitive lot. What did I say about the first victims of communism being it’s own people?

            Ukrainian nationalists do refer to that war as theirs but in reality they were just part of the White forces. As you correctly indicate, the surviving nationalists were indeed allied to the Hitler Nazis some years later. Even forming their own Waffen SS battalions, all guilty of heinous war crimes everywhere they went. Including concentration camp guards. Bandera was the leader of one exceptionally militant and brutal group. Did you know we let many of them settle in the UK after the war. No war crimes trials were ever held. As they were very useful to our intelligence service during the cold war. See the Mark Felton YouTube videos on the subject. YouTube tried to ban them.

            Their descendants are very influential in todays Ukraine. Composing the majority of the anti-Russian faction.

          • Can’t hold what people did in the past against future generations. If that happens every British person is in deep trouble.

          • When the current generation make a point of resurrecting the sins of the past, I can and do. The current generation have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and should know better. Stepan Bandera cult being a prime example of a current generation resurrection of past evil.

            We British suffer from a twisted view of our past. We hate ourselves for the Atlantic slave trade for example. But forget that we were the leading force in Abolishment movement. Outlawing slavery in the entire British Empire at great expense. 24% of the world land surface and at the time, 25% of the worlds population. A cause for national pride. As is our code of laws and government. Something else we gave to the world along with our great international language, industrialisation, etc etc etc. It’s a very long list. So I disagree with the inference of your comment.

          • Thanks George. Corruption in Ukraine may well have been due to it having been a Soviet republic, and you would hope or expect that after 30 years of independence that they would be less corrupt. But unlike eastern European countries who awere in the USSR sphere of influence, who were soon westernised by membership of the EU and NATO, that has not been Ukraine’s experience.

            I support Ukraine’s right to freedom, independence and the opportunity to join the EU and NATO. They have experienced the most horrendous invasion and deserve our sympathy which should not be withheld because certain officials and business men are corrupt. That is a seperate issue – full westernisation should ameliorate that, hopefully.

          • The difference between the founding members of the USSR and Eastern European Warsaw pact member states. Is quite simply the latter were conquered by the red army and were reluctant communists, persuaded at gunpoint.

            Several if not all, had subsequent uprisings brutally put down by the kremlin. Once the nazis were defeated the Red Army NKVD, ensured communism was the only option the people had. Liberators instantly became dictators and the western allies turned our backs on those poor people. Poland’s immediate post war story was particularly sad. Remember, Poland had been split between the nazis and the soviets when they were allies. The conquering soviets in 1939 (including Ukrainians BTW) committed just as many atrocities as the nazis, perhaps more!

            When it comes to Ukraine and being invaded. It would not have happened if everyone had stuck to the Minsk accords. It was western intelligence agencies influence that persuaded the Ukrainians to break the agreement. What role our cold war relationship with the once useful Ukrainian nationalists had in this, I can’t confirm. But 2+2 usually equals 4. By contrast, it was quite obvious who the antagonists were when ethic Russian Ukrainian citizens were being attacked by openly right wing Asov and other nationalists. Until that point the ethnic Russians were willing participants in the newly independent Ukraine, but after the 2014 coupe everything changed.

            It’s quite an intricate convoluted story and I’ve greatly simplified things. You need to try and find the Amnesty International reports about events in Ukraine before and after the 2014 coup de’ tat. The nationalist Putin calls nazis stupidly or deliberately, gave him the excuse he wanted to seize Crimea. The and the rest you likely know about. I honestly cannot differentiate between Ukraine and Russia when it comes to blame for this war.

            I truly hate and detest Col of KGB Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, this I admit. Just as much as I hate/detest the KGB members who are now high ranking Ukrainian officials, oligarchs or in their employ. Given the opportunity I’d slot them all. Why?
            As Putin has proudly said. “There is no such thing as a former KGB man.”
            That kind of indoctrination like the NKVD and SS is impossible to reverse. I can expand on that for you if needed.

            I hope the following explains a little more about corruption and how deep seated it is in both countries. When the USSR collapsed, many KGB and Spetsnaz teamed up with the Russian/Ukrainian oligarchs and Mafi. They had skills these nasty people wanted. But like Putin who chose politics, they quickly and ruthlessly took the top jobs. Read this from my archives. The left wing rag, the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/23/how-organised-crime-took-over-russia-vory-super-mafia

          • Thanks George. Very interesting. You suggest that it was the Ukrainians that broke the Minsk accords, but the seperatists were most guilty of ceasefire violations, although admittedly the ceasefire was but one element of the accords.

            Anyway, you are very focussed on the corruption issue, and I am not interested in it, but am far more concerned at the monstrous war crimes committed by Putin and his forces.

            Sadly there is no prospect of even a ceasefire, let alone a lasting resolution. This conflict is unlikely to end whilst Putin is in power. The tragedy is that Putin’s successor, if he is another hardliner, is likely to prolong the conflict.

          • Cheers Graham. I’m listening to the match and your reply arrived in my mailbox.

            The war crimes are committed by both sides, like I said there’s nothing to tell them apart. The main difference is the reporting bias. We only hear about the alleged Russian crimes. I’m sure Russians only hear about Ukraine crimes. Do not forget that the Russian and Ukrainian propaganda wings were all Glavlit trained. (Glavlit = Directorate for the protection of state secrets in the press.) Lies and half truths were their speciality. Nothing to tell them apart.

            The Ukrainian far right wing, who were and probably still are, separate from the official ukrainian army. Committed their share of atrocities, including reports of beheadings, murder and rape. They have their own agenda and chain of command. I recall one of their leaders bragging that they only follow Kiev or Kyiv orders when those orders fit their own. Remember, they were responsible for the persecution of ethnic russian in Crimea and the Dombas. Shelling civilian homes, schools and hospitals, without restraint. Well recorded by Amnesty International. One of the catalysts for the war. Nothing to tell them apart.

            Search for these headlines on news 18 from 2022, March and Newsweek September 2014. “Azov battalion accused of committing inhuman crimes against Ukrainians they are supposed to protect.”
            This one is a doozy: Ukrainian nationalists volunteers committing “ISIS-style” war crimes. I will post the links in a second reply.

            Also there are independant Chechens brigades fighting on both sides. Their reputation is well known, wherever they operate. They were and still are, the worst of the worst ISIS murderers in Syria/Iraq. Barbaric jihadis are the same everywhere, regardless which flag they claim to follow. Islam always comes first for the mujahideen. (= Those engaged in Jihad.) Beheading and torture is normal practice. Nothing to tell … etc

            NUFC 3 – 0 Crystal Palace half time score.
            Happy Geordie days!

          • Thanks George. I recall that British soldiers too have been accused of, and sometimes found guilty of, Geneva Protocol violations and/or acting outside ROE in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan.
            I am sure there are crimes on both sides in the Ukraine – Ukraine is gathering information on war crimes committed by the Russian forces and perhaps Russia is doing the same on any Ukrainian crimes.
            Similarly we see this issue in the Israel/Hama conflict.

            We in the west picked a side to support and we have picked Ukraine (it wasn’t that hard a choice as Russia was the invading aggressor).

          • Hi Graham, I don’t think I have exchanged so many messages with anyone else on this site. The subject is just too important to let go.

            Most war crimes have thankfully been lost in the fog of war. However, the trend for troops to carry body cams in changing that. It’s a change for the worse in my opinion. Sometimes things need to be done in the heat of the moment for operational success. That do not stand up to scrutiny later by people who were not there. It’s a touchy subject that I do not want to unpack here. But I will say this. An NCOIC or commissioned officer will nearly always act in the interests of the soldiers under his command. Bending or breaking rules to preserve their lives. It’s something that needs to be experienced to fully understand. Bonds and loyalties formed in adversity are like no other. I’m sure you know exactly what I mean.

            Not being in uniform these days I can afford to refrain from picking sides in this or other conflicts. Even if our leading politicians do so. In fact, expressing my own contradictory views on the matter, is simply exercising a hard won British birth right. (Whingeing Poms as our Aussie cousins call it.) Many people gave their lives so we British can choose not to agree with our government and loudly say so. However, if and when we actually declare war against an enemy, rest assured. I’ll be 100% behind the cause and will smartly “fall in,” closing ranks with our armed forces as always. Regardless of my personal misgivings. But until then … …

            I wish you well Graham. Stay strong, stay safe and stay free.
            God save the King!

          • It certainly is Graham. However, the takeaway here should be the date-2014 and the unescapable fact that both sides were reported as committing war crimes including executions. Also, the 3000 deaths were Ukrainians living in the Donbas-read ethnic Russians. Who many years later decided to leave Ukraine to become independent. One report is of an ethnic Russian mother who received her sons head in a box!

            So much for Ukrainian claims that they did not persecute ethnic Russians. Giving them good cause to want independence and then seek the protection of the “Rodina” and the b’stard Putin. Even if he orchestrated much of this to play out as expected. Who else could they have turned to?

            When one delves into the details, there is no difference between either side in this war. Ukraine is just as guilty of orchestration too. Which is not surprising really considering both sides have had identical experiences for several generations, as founders of the USSR. They only know one way to behave!

            Aidar and Azov are just two of the Ukrainian extremist groups that are guilty of war crimes. The former has roots as far back as 1830 with extremely strong Nazi links, even today. As previously stated, the Chechens operating for both sides have track records of being particularly evil. It’s a f’ed up mess of conflicting agendas.

            Lets leave it there Graham. I could provide more reported incidents of atrocities by both sides from numerous independent sources. But to be quite honest more of the same is unnecessary. I hope this explains why I hold the opinion Ukraine is as unworthy of our support as Putin’s Russia. Also why I think the only role NATO should have played in this is peace maker and arbitrator. Simply acting and good neighbours.

            Not that it’s an option at this late stage in the game.

            Please note, I have deliberately avoided talking about Putin’s activities on British soil and elsewhere, while Boris Johnson was Home Sec. Until now – I have my reasons. Despite those activities being central to why as PM head strong BoJo was so keen to confront Putin head-on. In his position I would have wanted to do the same thing and oh! So much more. But hope common-sense, IQ and humanitarian concern would have overruled my deeply patriotic heart.

            I wish you well Graham and thank you for reading my ramblings. The same goes for anyone else who has stayed with this exchange.

            За мир стоит бороться.

          • I’ve replied to you but it awaits approval. There is a link to a story in the Guardian I assume is the problem.

          • Hi George.
            Fascinating reading. I’m well aware of the Ukrainian Waffen SS Division, and the Auxiliary battalions in the partisan war. And Trawniki men in the concentration and death camps.
            All that is fact.
            I don’t loathe Ukraine like you do myself,
            and want them to prevail and beat the evil of Putin.
            But I respect your view, through your service in the Cold War. 👍

          • Cheers!! Read my reply to Graham that is awaiting approval. It contains an external link.

            Perhaps I too have been well indoctrinated by my time in service. But it was with full consent and lots of private study. Knowing ones enemy can become an obsession.

            I tried learning Russian and Polish to better understand them. Not very successfully I hasten to add. If you enjoy tongue twisters give it a go.

          • Hi George,

            I look forward to reading your reply once the ‘UKDJ authorities’ have approved it.

            I served 1975-2009 and was very much a Cold War warrior, undertaking 4 postings in Germany, one being after the Berlin Wall fell – 1976 with 2SG LAD, Munster; 1982 – 4 Armd Wksp, Detmold; 1983-4 at 21 Engr Regt Wksp, Nienburg; 1991-92 at 28 Amph Engr Regt Wksp, Hameln.

            The enemy to me up to the disolution of the USSR and Warsaw Pact was very much 3rd Shock Army.

            In 1992, RE officers of 28 Engr Regt (but not me, the REME guy!) were invited to visit a former East German Army amph engr regt not too far away – enemies quickly turned to friends.

            I too learned Russian, but at school.

            Ukraine has had a tough time – they lost 7m in WW2 to the Nazis and now more grief from another aggressive neighbour. I am on their side, even if there is corruption amongst some officials.

          • I seem to have missed this reply Graham, apologies. I understand your position and respect it.

            I always got on very well with our REME LAD. It was a great place to go for a chin wag with the Tiffy to find out what was going on and have a brew. That applied equally to my time in the regulars and TAVR. The armorers were good people to know too. Especially for tweaking and tightening up weapons prior to competitions. A bottle of the good stuff helped to lubricate the working parts above and beyond the opposition, if you follow. Just one of the tricks of the trade.

            Хорошего тебе дня, мой друг.

          • Thanks George. I recall that an AFV crew invariably gave the reccy mechs a multi-pack of Herforder beer (‘golden handbag’, I think was the phrase) as reward for pulling them out of a bog.

            Мы должны надеяться на мир, друг мой.

          • I fondly remember the 10 pack of Herforder Pils sold by the NAAFI in Munster and elsewhere. A golden or yellow handbag indeed. Liquid good will.

          • Good point. Many German-occupied countries had Waffen SS units.
            Ukraine’s WW2 experience should not lead us to minimise our empathy for a country experiencing the most horrendous invasion, daily attacks and partial occupation some 80 years later.

          • Agree, and it doesn’t. It is history. Just a not so well known history, though Putin and his fascists will push the point for all its worth.

  13. These people simply refuse to see the brutality of the Islamists, when Hamas attacked, these people were quick to point fingers at Israel and try to argue Hamas was provoked into it by ‘decades of oppression’.

    By looks of the protest marches there are still plenty of these idiots out there.

    • Are there really though? How many were marching, 5, 19 thousand, 20? How many were Palestinian or Muslim, so in some cases actually against the nations they reside in? I don’t know. Out of a population of 60 million plus.
      I think the silent majority, like me, support Israel at heart, but also want Palestine to have its independence while acknowledging that Israel too has overstepped the mark on numerous occasions.
      For me, the difference is that Hamas and IJ are the same snake. If they finish with the Jews it is westerners next.

      • Yes but as you have alluded to they are a very vocal minority they will play the ‘racist’ and/or ‘islamophobia’ card whenever challenged, that tactic alone keeps the ‘silent’ majority silent.

          • Yeah, it is a bad thing that these vocal minorities can control the majority by the threat of ‘character assassination’ via social media. The majority needs to stand up to and expose this hypocritical behavior.

          • I don’t think they control anything, the UK is currently not participating in the conflict nor is there any chance it will.

          • Social media is a powerful tool and it is often abused by people who want to politically manipulate others or make themselves look like a victim.

            We have seen this where people get ‘cancelled’ i.e. fired from their job because someone got offended by some so-called ‘microaggression’ This is an example of how an angry (vocal) minority can have undue influence over the lives of ordinary folk.

          • Completely agree with you. But my main concern is that the attention of the west is now taken away from Ukraine. Israel is more than capable of taking care of this themselves, I suspect we may see the USMC and European countries carry out an armed evacuation of our folks from Gaza and then let Israel get on with it.

          • Hi mate.
            I’m unsure. There’s a difference I think between media and political attention and that of the military and the intelligence community, which I think would be as focused on Ukraine as before even though it no longer makes the headline news.
            As long as supply of weapons and information continues, Ukraine remains NATOs main concern.
            It is only the US supplying weapons I think, not European NATO. I assume Iron Dome missiles, JDAMs and such, which UKR don’t use. I don’t think they use JDAM?
            The danger is I agree if the west deploys for a greater operation than present that stretches us.
            But we’re not at that point and hopefully it won’t get to that.

          • Right now I’m not sure our being (over)stretched is a bad thing. Government has to stop kidding itself that we can do it all on thruppence a week and jam on Thursdays. Efficiency savings won’t cut it!

            We outspent and outproduced the Soviet Union. That’s why we won. We need to do much the same with China/Russia/Iran, which means a significant uplift, probably to pre 1990 levels.

          • Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with you Jon, any significant increase in defence spending is never going to happen. I know I sound like a ‘Debbie Downer’ but I am a realist – this government – and the next – is going to continue the current status quo and spend the absolute bare minimum on defence.

            Short of us being dragged into an all out war, I see nothing changing. If we are dragged in, regrettably it’s already too late.

          • Lloyd Austin put it very eloquently last week when as asked about supporting Israel and Ukraine with arms at the same time; he responded by saying ‘Don’t worry, the US can walk and chew gum at the same time’.

            That about sums it up.

          • Hi DM. I think it’s also important to note Israel gave control of the Gaza back to the Palestinians, who proceeded to vote in a terrorist organisation, Hammas.

            To be clear, I certainly do not condone the bombing of civilian buildings in Gaza. I appreciate this maybe a difficult analogy, however might there be parallels to Bomber Command flattening Belin and the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokoyo?

            Horrible state of affairs for all though, especially for the children.

          • Morning Chris.
            Yes, I was unaware of that detail and only read of it the other day after this mess started, when my wife asked me why it existed separate from the West Bank.

            Taken from the Egyptians, then handed to the Palestinians.
            When a terror group controls a large urban area with millions of civilians and puts its assets and its hostages in that area, how to destroy them without such casualties? Impossible, and they know it.

          • Cheers Daniele, a tragic state of affairs. Ultimately Hammas knew what would come. They area responsible for the suffering bestowed upon their people.

          • And by the way, The Springboks! Bloody hell mate, so, so good. We don’t have much chance on Saturday!

          • Interesting article in today’s DT arguing that Netanyahu made a strategic error in weakening the Palestinian leaders in the West Bank by failing to restrain the Jewish fundamentalists building settlements in the West Bank. The result was to encourage Palestinian support for Hamas.

          • An interesting point you raise Paul. I never understood the expansion of settlements in the West bank. Fuel to the fire, seems nuts.

        • That’s what vocal minorities do, other side just has bad any criticism of Israel is met with anti Semitic comments.

          I love Jewish people and the Jewish faith but hate the actions and leadership of the Israeli government.

          I’m not anti semitic for making that statement.

          I hate Hamas and the continuing failure of the government of Palestine as well that’s not Islamophobia.

          • If you really want to make that point might I suggest the perjorative run in “I love the Jewish people, but…” be omitted. It’s like the “some of my best friends are Jews, but…” line.

            It is not antisemitic to say you hate the actions of the Israeli government. So just say that.

        • Tell me about it! Same thing here in Auckland NZ. Mainly ignorant uni kids and a handful of career agitators. Not a jot of criticism nor condemnation from the pro Palestinian mob when Hammas were murdering Israeli citizens . Bloody hypocrites, the the lot of them.

      • 100% agree. I want both sides to prevail. It’s just a pity both sides are controlled by absolute corrupt animals and the people of Israel and Palestine are so hate filled it’s hard to see an end to it. Both sides are willing to support corrupt leaders if they wave the nationalist flag.

        Maybe we could start building a big wall round the entire place.

  14. Sun Tzu said :-
    “The greatest victory is that which requires no battle”
    So you would divert the support we give to the Ukraine to Israel ! Drop supporting a country that is European and has been invaded by a full on Russian Army to support a superbly armed and trained ME country that is fighting 40k terrorists.

    Israel doesn’t need nor want our physical help, they probably have more Tanks, guns, fighters, troops and Nucs than most of European NATO put together.

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again there is an axis of evil comprising of Russia, N Korea, Iran (and its proxies) with China rubbing its hands in the background.

    If Iran is actually allied with Russia, its aim is the destruction of Israel and to weaken the US ans the western democracies. To help achieve that and assist Russia to win their war, all they have to do is get their proxies in Gaza, Lebanon and Syria to stir up the Israeli / Palestine conflict. The best time to do that is just before the weather changes, winter sets in and diverts the Wests and US support away from Ukraine. The result is Ukraine gets hammered over the winter and is unable to either defend itself or renew its offensive in spring.

    Guess what, that’s what has just happened and there is now zero coverage or interest in the Ukraine any more.

    Mr Putin must be laughing himself stupid if he reads your comment.

    • Completely agree, there really is a likely anti western axis…I’m not sure it’s completely formed but it’s there..Iran, China and Russia want the same thing…an end to western hegemony. It’s also gaining support in Africa, South America and even some European countries.

      • All these countries are A useless B more willing to fight each other than the west.

        The only threat to western hegemony comes from the west. It’s a combination of Isolationist hill billy hicks (MAGA) and middle class left leaning nihilism that views everything through a racial prism that wants to blame white people for all the worlds woes.

        If we could transport both sides to the Middle East and let them duke it out with the Israelis and Palestinians in some sort of giant thunder dome the world would be a much better place. 😀

        • But it’s so much about if we would win ( I’m sure the west would come out on top, being a western myself)..it’s about the catastrophic nature of the conflict that will occur..I don’t want 10s millions dying because the world degenerates into a global conflagration…I would much rather the west make it clear it’s not defendable across the globe as a way to head off conflict….also remember the west it’s dependent on a lot of resources that site in places that could and would fall under the influence of other powers…there is also the fact that it’s not just about fighting…let’s be really honest the British empire was forged not in blood ( well not as much as most other empires..but there were some bucket fulls of red stuff) but power and mercantilism..with navel power as a hammer…china especially has swallowed the British imperial play book hook line and sinker and has re-invented it for the 21C….people often forget that our lovely nation was really nothing but a third rate power that was a religious pimple on the nose of great superpowers…we found a way to move from third rate power that was alway waiting for the next invasion to the most dominant power to ever exist ( even the U.S. at its hight does not weld the same level of global power as the British empire did at its hight…even when the British army could not fight a peer…)

          Im not sure I would inflict MAGA or those nihilistic types on anyone to be honest…even islamists and Zionist’s have rights.

        • Making Aggression Great Again is being called out at lincolnproject.us where attempts to subvert the 2023 US Presidential Election are being identified (third party candidates) and the many 91 enditements of the 45th president/prisoner are documented.
          Accountability is still something that the US Judiciary does as the orange wana-be dictator is finding out.
          Let’s hope the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution keeps us safe from the post-truth delusions of that fraudster.
          Slava Ukraine! Slava Heroyam!
          #StandWithUkraine 🇺🇦🇺🇲🇬🇧🇸🇪🇫🇮🇳🇴🇵🇱🇦🇺🇸🇮🇸🇰🇱🇻🇱🇹🇪🇪🇩🇰🇩🇪🇪🇸

    • Well my friend I’m of the opinion that there is nothing to choose between Ukraine and Russia. Both were privileged founding members of the soviet union, with identical communist histories. My sworn enemies through the Cold War. They are now corrupt oligarchies and not even close to proper democracies. The current war is in my opinion the product of EU and Western powers interference. Including instigating a coupe against an elected corrupt government, just to install another even more corrupt government. Complete with far right Stepan Banderas fascists. Quite honestly Ukraine is not worth the bother. Israel on the other hand most certainly is!

      We will just have to agree to disagree and see what comes out in the wash. I suspect things will soon run out of control. As well laid plans by some very dubious players either collapse into chaos or come to fruition. I’m very concerned for the future.

      • I am most certainly not! I simply detest both countries that gave the world the evils of the soviet union, with equal venom.

  15. So Hezbollah have now started lobbing rockets and missiles at Israel from Lebanon, clearly lead on by Iran…unfortunately this means it’s very likely that this will now become a Gaza ( Hamas) Lebanon ( Hezbollah) Israeli conflict, with Iran as a sponsor. It’s probable that Syria will become involved in supporting Hezbollah if there is a lsraeli Lebaneses conflict…You can pretty much be sure that Iran will now be working hard in the Westbank to find extremists who can be used to ignite that area as well..specifically to try and drag Jordan into the conflict and weaken its links with the western sphere and closer to Iran. Basically there is a concerted effort going on to explode the Middle East.

    • The Syrian army has been seriously weakened by years of civil war I think the real threat comes from the fact that Iran’s revolutionary guard is present in Syria. Secondly, Israel is within striking range of Iran’s large stockpile of ballistic missiles should they decide to get involved.

      • Hi bringer..yes with Syria..it’s not some much about a state on state conflict with Israel as it’s not capable..more as a facilitator of support to Hezbollah…a flow for funds,weapons and fighters.

    • Think yore spot on Jonathan. That being said, if I were Hezbollah I’d keep my head down and not interfere. They should take a leaf from the 67 war and Yom kippur book. I would not tackle the Israelis Lions nuts!

    • Fortunately there is also a concerted effort to calm things down, not least 2 US carrier groups. Also read the US are planning to position 2000 troops in the region: location not known. Read somewhere there are just 100,000 people left in Gaza city so the majority have left. The IDF ought be able to do what they need to do without levelling the hospitals – destroy Hamas tunnels and centres. If Egypt can be persuaded to allow humanitarian aid into south Gaza civilian casualties can be largely avoided.

      • I doubt the presence of two US carrier groups will calm things down and cause Hamas to desist firing rockets into Israel or to deter Israel from launching a ground operation into the Gaza strip.

        I fear the IDF will lose a lot of soldiers when they enter the strip and they won’t get all of Hamas – but they have to do it.

        • Probably not, but I think their presence makes a statement that if push comes to shove, the US will defend Israel and will not countenance an increase in the scope of the conflict e.g. Syria.
          I think the Hamas plan was always to draw IDF into Gaza with the aim of inflicting losses and generating more sympathy for civilian casualties. Rooting out Hamas will require patience and creativity.

          • Thanks. We finally opted for a different technique with the IRA and the other NI terrorist organisations….a political solution.

  16. Me thinks another Russian bot has escaped the Farm. When your diverting aid from Ukraine what do you expect to happen there?

  18. Iran has warned Israel of an imminent pre emotive strike. That’s going to lead to a wider regional war and probably drag in Syria, Lebanon, possibly Jordan and Egypt. These nations aren’t normally natural allies but their unified hatred of Israel is their joining factor.
    I think Iran will attempt some ballistic or cruise missile strikes.

    • I doubt it, all these nations are have their public game then their private one. Israel is a distraction to most of them. They all know that ultimately a face off with Israel and god forbid the USA is the only thing that can actually end their regimes and very fast. They all seen what happened to Saddam and Gaddafi. Israel occupies a tiny slither of land with no resources.

    • I missed the Iranian threat but have now spotted it in the Press – made late on 17th Oct by Iran’s foreign minister, but no sign of anything so far.

      I don’t see Egypt and Jordan wanting to wage war on Israel, no matter what other Arab nations do.

    • No idea why you would want an AWACS in the area. Rivet Joint for SIGNIT and P8 for maritime is what’s useful. The Rivet Joint let’s us gather intel from all party’s including Israel so they don’t go to far and the P8 let’s us monitor if anyone is supplying Hamas by the sea.

      • I’m no expert on AWACS capabilities but if it could handle it then one use I can think of might be monitoring for situations such as yesterday’s hospital explosion where the Israelis say that they have not only SIGINT that has captured Hamas messages about a misfire and explicit naming of the hospital where the explosion was seen but that they also have radar tracks of rockets fired from Gaza with one hitting the hospital.

        Would a good AWACS be able to capture that sort of event? I have heard that even in a sea environment decluttering well enough to accurately identify sea-skimming missiles is a challenge (that has been solved) so perhaps adequate decluttering is even harder when the background is not an open expanse of sea but is instead an uneven land terrain with lots of movement going on?

        If it was possible though then I would have thought that an independently operated AWACS asset could be quite useful in shedding light (truth) on such each-party-blames-the-other types of incidents.

        • In Cyprus, we have both an OTH radar ( two sites, transmit and recieve ) and also one or possibly 2 HF DF ( Pusher ) systems, though unsure on status of these.
          Though the tech involved and whether they’re useable in this event for small rocket launches is way beyond me.

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here