A British RC-135 ‘Rivet Joint’, an electronic surveillance aircraft, has conducted a patrol near Israel, the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.
The role of the aircraft is to conduct electronic surveillance and gather intelligence.
A British RC-135 ‘Rivet Joint’ electronic surveillance aircraft has conducted a patrol near #Israel, the #Gaza Strip and #Lebanon today. Visible to the west of the RC-135 are British Voyager tanker/transport aircraft. pic.twitter.com/Qn2SSQoaF7
— UK Defence Journal (@UKDefJournal) October 15, 2023
The deployment of these aircraft to this area is unusual, although not unprecedented and not surprising, given previous statements of support for Israel from the UK Government.
It should be noted that these flights are not secret, the aircraft themselves are transmitting their location in the knowledge that services like FlightRadar24 will show their location. If it was a secret, I would not know.
What does the RC-135W do?
According to the Royal Air Force website, the RC-135W Rivet Joint is a dedicated electronic surveillance aircraft that can be employed in all theatres on strategic and tactical missions. Its sensors ‘soak up’ electronic emissions from communications, radar and other systems.
“RC-135W Rivet Joint employs multidiscipline Weapons System Officer (WSO) and Weapons System Operator (WSOp) specialists whose mission is to survey elements of the electromagnetic spectrum in order to derive intelligence for commanders.”
The Royal Air Force say that Rivet Joint has been deployed extensively for Operation Shader and on other operational taskings. It had been formally named Airseeker, but is almost universally known in service as the RC-135W Rivet Joint.
Some general uses of the RC-135W include:
- Signal Intelligence (SIGINT): The aircraft collects electronic signals, such as communications, radar, and other systems, to gather intelligence on adversaries’ capabilities and intentions.
- Strategic Deterrence: By conducting visible reconnaissance flights near areas of interest, the UK sends a clear message to potential adversaries that their activities are being closely monitored. This serves as a deterrent, helping to maintain regional stability and prevent conflicts.
- Support to Diplomacy: Intelligence gathered by the RC-135W can play a crucial role in informing diplomatic efforts and shaping foreign policy. By providing accurate and timely information, the aircraft helps decision-makers navigate complex geopolitical situations.
The UK operates three RC-135W Rivet Joint aircraft.
Listening to the IDF, Hamas, Hezbollah or all 3.?
Niche capability only matched by the Americans. Key enables like the RC135 are what sets us apart from the majority of allied Armed Force’s.
Simple matter of prudence for MoD to schedule multiple RC-135W sorties to assist in developing SIGINT portion of current ISR frame of reference. This may change to an ISTAR requirement, if evacuation of British and Allied citizens from Gaza, Israel, Lebanon and possibly Syria are contested by party(ies) seeking leverage through hostage taking. Noted that P-8 had previously been dispatched to area w/ RFA Argus and Lyme Bay, a company of RM and other unspecified ‘surveillance tools.’ Possibly Predator/(Reaper?) out of Akrotiri? Presume RM practices hostage rescue/extraction on a regular basis? Would not be surprised if elements of SAS/SBS have… Read more »
UK has major sigint station on its sovereign base area in Cyprus, so has been listening/recording for decades
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayios_Nikolaos_Station
Records from Snowden showed the NSA was funding half the costs
I believe the U.S. have always funded and supported the ISTAR capabilities in Cyprus, the US was a major influence in the UK staying in Cyprus and maintaining sovereignty over an portion of it against the wishes of the Cypriot government. There are a couple of the inescapable and interesting tensions around decolonisation… 1)the US are were fanatical supporters of European power’s decolonisation (even making it difficult for European powers) unless the U.S. needed access to that land and it may have fallen into a government that was within the soviet circle of influence. 2) the UN decolonisation special committee… Read more »
It is a revelation to me that the US had anything to do with the British Government’s decision to keep two Sovereign Base Areas after the UK granted Cyprus independence. Is this really a fact?
Hi graham yes the loss of the two bases in Cyprus was beyond the pale to the US and Henry Kissinger basically tied the UK in knots to ensure we maintained the two sovereign bases after Cypriot independence..the Treaty of Nicosia was very much about binding the UK in perpetuity into running the two bases..put in simple terms we cannot leave them even if we wanted to. Kissinger doubled down on this by really supporting and green lighting the Turkish occupation of part of the island in 1974..Basically the terms of the 1960 treaty mean that the UK cannot give… Read more »
What makes you think the UK was ever likely to lose the SBAs that it had wanted and negotiated in the Treaty of Nicosia?
BTW, Greece is also a signatory to the Treaty.
What has the Turkish invasion of 1974 got to do with this? You suggest that Kissinger fomented that invasion, somehow to keep the British bases? I don’t get that.
I have responded graham with a full set of references and academic papers that showed Kissinger basically forced the UK position in Cyprus as well as knowing that Turkey was going to invade and that the British government also new Turkey was going to invade and that Kissinger pressured the UK in staying in Cyprus when it wanted to leave and basically supported Turkey in its actions.
Thanks Jonathan, Seems very odd to me that the UK would have secured the 2 x SBAs by Treaty in 1960 but then just a few short years later wanted to abandon them, until Callaghan did a U-turn during the Mar 1974- Apr 76 period he was Foreign Sec. What was the logic in wanting to get rid?
The Uk had a few wavers..the first was really in the 60 treaty….it was in half a mind about securing the to SBAs mainly due to money and commitments with the UK being skint…the US at that time really wanted the UK to keep presence in Cyprus as it did not trust the new Cypriot government not to fall under the sway of the Soviet Union and refuse access..the 1974 waver was that the fact the UK government knew Turkey was going to invade and did not want its forces stuck between the two warring sides…and so had decided to… Read more »
Thanks, very interesting. I served in UNFICYP in Nicosia for 6 months in 1981. The mission and UN dispositions having been drastically changed (from 1963) since the 1974 Turkish invasion. Loved the country and had several holidays since, in the north and the south. Would have been insane to give up the SBAs for whatever reason. I have some issues about the length of time that Callaghan had his prior knowledge about the Turkish invasion. Makarios fell out with the Junta in Athens writing an inflammatory letter on 2 Jul 74. Theis triggered the Greek Cypriot National Guard to overthrew… Read more »
Correct, the NSA pay towards the costs of “SOUNDER”
There are also 3 others, but yes, the JSSU at Ayios Nikolaos is the primary site. ( split in two actually )
All those extras will be pretty logical, yes. When there was the Terry Wait hostage scenario a rescue was planned as the intelligence was available but I read the politicians got cold feet and cancelled it.
A remarkable man, maintaining sanity through nearly 5 years in captivity.
My favourite Waite quote is about remembering that opponents in confrontation are human, too, no matter what the differences are and that that must be considered at the end of any confrontation:
“At the end it is necessary to construct an exit door through which you can leave together.” (Paraphrase)
How that applies to current wars, or to the societies that are behind the wars (or held hostage by the groups at war), remains to be seen.
Didnt Waites background , military intell, before working for the CoE indicate he was an undercover asset.
Not unexpected as the secret services use journo, NGOs, business and other groups to hide their people
Is that a fact re Waites previous? Wasn’t aware of that.
Not a fact . Just wondering about his military background and his unusual job for CoE
Wiki: “Waite joined the Grenadier Guards at Caterham Barracks, but an allergy to a dye in the uniform obliged him to depart after a few months.[5] “
Not much of a military career!
Cover story!
It seems the earlier version that I remember has been altered to this one. His capture was all about the other side saw him as an undercover too.
Thats not to say hes done remarkable work
The special forces hostage rescue teams are always on stand by.
Gaza would probably be one of the worst places to try hostage rescue from.
I’m not sure it would even be possible…there is a reason Isreal is undertaking a very significant mobilisation before going into Gaza.
Probably need permission from Israelis, substance back up forces. Helicopters have a good chance of being spotted as soon as they approach then being shot down. Going in from the sea has the same problems of being spotted then a fire fight in and out against heavy weapons. Also depends where the hostages are located. The further in Gaza the harder it gets. Then trying to rescue the some hostages alive and get them back to an extraction point. They may be injured, immobile making moving them difficult. Frankly it’s a near impossible mission. Perhaps when the IDF forces start… Read more »
I suspect not, these are people who have a profoundly warped view of religion life and death…with religion being more important than the other two by a county Mile unfortunately. I suspect Isreal has already written them off, this is not a rescue operation it’s a removing Hamas as a threat and as the governing power of Gaza. Effectively it’s about the greater good of the majority of Israel’s citizens not about individuals. Sadly some things transcend the safety and well being of individuals and the safety of the majority of those you are duty bound save take priority( and… Read more »
you can’t simply put it’s all Hamas to blame Israel plays a massive part in provocation, discrimination, genocide of the Palestinian people every single day.
Actually I can and do…I’m perfectly happy to separate out the crap activities of the Israeli government after it’s spent it’s entire existence trying to defend itself from powers that want to utterly destroy it..from Hamas which simply wants to remove every Jew from every part of Palestine..and is actually happy to see every Jew be they innocent child, mother, wife, grandparent ect dead (They see every Jew in the holy lands as a combatant and any Jewish state in the holly lands as an affront to Islam..that must be punished with death even unto their own deaths) and are… Read more »
Nice history, but you omitted the Macedonian invasion under Alexander & his successors, who also royally hacked the Jews off. They were under Persian control a bit ealier than 339BC too.
“How can Israel ever allow Gaza to exist without walls caging it in when Gazas ruling organisationS sole aim is the destruction of Israel…?
Do you do anything besides post extremely long-winded genocidal excuses on this website since the conflict broke out?
Israel have a chance to make things better for the Gaza Strip if they do the operation properly. It’s not off to great start with all the civilian casualties and destruction. I had thought the land invasion would have started by now. Perhaps they aren’t actually going to go into all of Gaza. Most important of all will be getting some kind of effective government in place quickly. That is difficult as Hamas have killed many of the opposition. Hopefully Israel puts up the money for reconstruction and employ a large number of locals. Getting decent housing rebuilt with functioning… Read more »
At a very minimum Israel needs to reestablish a democratic government in Gaza. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that won an election 16 years ago.
It can’t just blow the s**t out of Gaza and build an even bigger wall. It has responsibilities for territories it occupies just as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That’s not the best examples Jim…hardly models of what to do….Afghanistan I would say had some validity behind it as the US was trying to destroy the safe harbour of an organisation that tried to decapitate the US…Iraq 2…was an iffy war at best…the whole weapons of mass destruction thing….well Russia has enough weapons of mass destruction to end the human race…but we never invaded them…. The reality of the wall and exclusion zone around Gaza was more about Israel not dealing with Hama…basically is was set up as part of the peace settlement between the PLO ( what would… Read more »
Indeed, the rebuilding will be import as will ensuring a secular Palestinian movement such as Fatah can hold power and control the islamists, that will mean decades of a better life….but first Hamas have to be removed from power and that will be brutal for both Israel and Arab alike. The sad thing is it could have been so different if Fatah had taken control of Gaza and driven out Hamas and if the Israeli government could then have used that to drive down and control its radical Zionists and disband the settlements in the West Bank..so strengthing Fahat even… Read more »
It would end up resembling the black hawk down debacle. Way too densely populated with enemies popping up all around. Nightmare territory for any sort of operation.
Difference is Blackhawk down had a few platoons with no armour.
The Israelis are calling up their reserves and will have 500,000 with all the artillery and armour they need and complete control of the air.
It’s likely to be very messy for the Palestinians.
I was referring to any plan for our (or anyone else’s) special forces trying to extract their nationals from Gaza.
Israel will most likely go in with a very heavy iron first flattening everything in sight.
Armour can’t clear out extensive tunnel complexes.
Agreed.
Good luck boys!
Virtue signalling, they are just copying Extinction rebellion by turning up and saying look at me
Exactly the heart in the sky and a big XR is pure PR gold dust.
RC135’s are not assets that are deployed without very good reason or need.
Thats should apply to everything the UK deploys. A company of soldiers, a OPV from the navy or even a C-17 or a flight or F35/Typhoon
Probably there to keep an eye on Hezbollah movements and possibly Iran’s revolutionary guard activities in Syria
Hopefully not taking capacity away from supporting Ukraine.
Hopefully its not a super secret double aircraft, or maybe its just one clapped out old lady, doing her best?
We have three of them.
The US has more.
I get a bit bored with the doom and gloom merchants who often frequent this site. I’m more of a pragmatist …. cut our cloth accordingly and all that, but there are some decisions that trouble me. This situation makes me think NATO should have its own fleet of Rivet Joints, with all members contributing, just as it should Air Tankers and not just AWACS, so we can continue apace with Rivet Joint monitoring over Ukraine. As you say, SB, the US do have a fleet of these but any distraction away from Ukraine will inevitably mean fewer Rivet Joints… Read more »
If is more to do with how sensitive what goes on onboard is.
A lot of NATO members couldn’t be trusted on board.
Also you don’t want everyone to know what we know and how we know it otherwise they can mitigate.
So having RIVET in others hands is a really bad idea.
Rivet Joint is a capability the US has only shared with the UK. The UK and USA are 5 Eyes members, European NATO is not.
There is a big difference and there lies the problem.
Some European NATO members are lower level partners in 5 Eyes but do not get the same level of intell access.
It is an anglosphere alliance, and to my mind must remain so.
Re RAF Rivet. Beyond the maintenance side, a lot or most of the supporting infrastructure for Rivet Joint capability is in the area that they are based.
Dont know about ‘clapped out’
Airframes can be bought back to near zero time
the military flies a fraction of the use that airlines do- never used for an airline
The engines and electronics are all brand new or overhauled
Worth remembering that commercial end of life is a blend of sustainment costs and the probable saving offered by new generation aircraft. It’s very rare to actually exhaust the airframe service hours. Engine sustainment must be to OEM service standards so an expected cost depending largely on usage hours.
Fly safe..
Since they are essentially pressure vessels, like submarines it’s cycles that wear out airframes, not hours (pressurization and depressurization).
Commercial airliners fly up to ten sectors per day. Military aircraft that don’t even fly every day will last for many decades, no problem.
Yes. Its both : cycles and hours
Clapped out? Wow you need to look past the airframe and look at its capabilities mate! One line throw away daily mail special comments do you no service.
In UKUSA, or 5 Eyes, intelligence is shared, with a few minor exceptions like UK Eyes only and the American version which I forget, NOFOR possibly?
So the reality that we have a single asset there is moot, as the take from sorties by the US feed directly into Cheltenham and other places.
And to add to that, there is Cyprus. Differing capabilities, same arena.
I think it’s NOFORN
Ahhhh, close! Thanks.
Ukraine ? Doesnt the October Surprise from Hamas tell you that leave a gap in capability and the opposition will exploit it
These planes should be in air in the coast near Norway and the arctic or Baltic and the Russian submarine bases.
Sunak shouldn’t be trying to play Blair and getting into ME wars
Agree, I want nothing to do with Either side in this, got enough problems in Europe without getting involved in a 50 year war we’re both sides are genocidal maniacs.
it does not work like that..these fires spread and burn everyone…
It is about not leaving a power vacuum. If the UK and US are not there then other ‘powers’ will appear to fill the void.
I agree we don’t want to get directly involved but we need to protect our interests and also know *exactly* what us going on?
The problem is, that others are trying to explode the Middle East..geopolitical tensions could lead to a very significant regional war ( nation state vs nation state) the U.S. is not going to able to stay out of that if Isreal ends up in a fight for its life against other nation states…the problem is some of those nation states are western allies…so a Isreal Jordan conflict would be a golden end for Iran, Russia and china…this is geopolitical movements rite large. If the US is focused on the Middle East it’s not focused on Eastern Europe and it’s not… Read more »
Seems rather strange, I’m pretty sure Israel has its own intelligence gathering platforms in place.
It sniffs the entire EW spectrum and paints a map for the MOD. They can see exactly what Israel is doing, not just taking their word for it.
Good point, I can see the P8 there is support of Israel with Rivet Joint monitoring comms from both sides for war crimes.might be the USA asked us to perform that mission so they don’t have to.
Maybe we are keeping an eye on Israel for war crimes.
I think it’s Hamas that needs watching for war crimes.
Both sides are beyond the ICC as Israel doesnt recognise the courts jurisdiction.
Nor does the US , China, Russia India
Yes more reason for us not to support any side. In fairness the USA does not recognise any form of international law. It’s never ratified even the law of the sea which it’s keeps berating China for breaking.
There are a lot of international agreements and treaties that the US has not ratified.
The Israeli’s managed to drop 6,000 bombs on Gaza in a few days. They either have one hell of a C4ISTAR capability beyond even the USA or there is a bit of indiscriminate targeting going on. Just because Hamas a terrorist organisation attacked them does not mean they should indiscriminately target civilians and there are already more dead in Gaza than in Israel and that’s before the ground invasion begins.
Unfortunately Secretary Blinken has been unconditional in support for Israel so some there may read that as having a free hand and not the responsibility expected by ICRC. The former would clearly not be in Israeli long term interests and reaching a sustainable peaceful future.
Outrage is not a good base for planning.
Much more might be needed soon. Rumour has it Italy might be preparing light carrier Cavour, FREMM frigates, tanker Etna, one of the LPD Saint to help evacuating UNIFIL troops in case things go south and UN retires UNIFIL. Not enough for all those troops, Spanish and French navy on the ready too
Good effort, so few platforms and so few people, so much to do, politicians please for a change take note!
Why are they flying from a base that is clearly very distant when they could be using RAF Akrotiri?
No need to forward deploy ground crews when the plane can easily fly from the UK. Much cheaper.
And with the USAF AAR assets in that area it makes even less sense to go through the hassle of forward deploying all the personnel and kit
I know RAF Rivets are fitted for boom AAR but not for probe and drogue. So do RAF Rivets actually do boom AAR? Are they trained for it?
I believe USAF tankers from Mildenhall refuel them upon take off over the North Sea tanker trail area on most, or every mission?
Thanks, Daniele
I wonder why the voyager is flying near by. Neither the P8 or the river joint can get fuel from it.
Must be for other assets, unless it has some other useful kit on board.
Oh?
Possibly in troop transport role?
Or, I’d read they’re used in some way in a comms relay data link role?
Drones should be getting sought for data relay. Seems a rather expensive solution to passing data.
Why not, if can do it while on another tasking? I might be wrong on this, though I’m sure I’d read the RAF was looking at other non combatant platforms to put comms on.
Well if it’s doing other tasks then yes. But if a comms relay was needed for 24 hours over a certain area that’s a few voyagers. I don’t even know if a drone has the power requirements to do that kind of task?
Defo, a waste of an expensive asset then!
The MoD bought 3 Zephyr that were suggested could do that sort of work, but no idea what happened to them.
Do our aircraft need USAF AAR? Voyager is a UK AAR asset.
Certain types need USAF AAR, the Voyager can’t boom refuel.
It went there after doing some Ukrainian/Black Sea surveillance over Romania and Bulgaria.
It returned to Waddo.
It is unlikely to use Akrotiri,more likely Crete, where the USAF already deploys it’s RC 135 and KC135 aircraft!
Enough is enough. It is time to bring the Israeli parliamentary democracy into NATO and give them the same protection we have. They are far more worthy of membership than some corrupt eastern european countries I can mention.
Not going to happen , ever . They have made their bed and now have to lie in it.
Who made their bed, the terrorists or the Israelis?
I hope you are not siding with the barbaric antisemitic terrorists!
No good sides in this one. I want both sides to loose, is that possible?
Pretty much a certainty.
There is way too much going on both internally and externally to just allow them into NATO. Pretty sure their hand would be permanently parked over the big red article 5 button.
Fully aware of the atrocities that Hamas has committed, which is abhorrent behaviour on their part. However, i’ve also seen enough footage of children being pulled out of rubble in Gaza over the last few days. Evil met with evil isn’t the answer. We should support Israel in combatting the terrorist organisations that mean the innocent Israeli civilians harm. That doesn’t mean we should support them cutting off water supply or bombing civilian buildings. There has to also be a point where the line is drawn on what Article 5 is there to actually combat against. Should it be invoked… Read more »
Hi Aaron. To be clear I don’t support the bombing of buildings and the collateral damage to innocent kids. I appreciate this maybe a difficult analogy, however might there be parallels to Bomber Command flattening Belin and the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokoyo? Again not my choice, however I’m not the one having my people murdered by Hamas. It’s easy for us to make perfectly rational comments “Evil met with evil isn’t the answer. “, but we don’t know what we don’t know. Experience shapes people and hardens hearts. Thy say in war the first casualty is truth. I… Read more »
Well said. When Hamas has been rooted out of Haza the violence needs to stop. Biden has said that on stabilisation of the current situation there should be a path to a 2 state solution. We are in this situation because in 1948 the UN only did half the job.
George, we should also not lose sight that Israel withdrew from Gaza and handed it back to the Palestinians. They then promptly elected a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them. They reap what they sow.
Except that the reason for withdrawing from Gaza was an experimental “land for peace deal.” We can see how successful that has been. But that is OK. As every scientist will tell you, negative experimental results are valid too. It is time to wipe the slate clean and return Gaza to it’s rightful owners. The triumphant IDF. Drive the terrorists and their supporters out of the place once and for all. Where they go is irrelevant. Paradise if they choose (best option) or one of the five nations that attacked Israel in 1948 would do, Syria for example. If they… Read more »
Israel just suspended its Supreme Court, its democratic routes are shallow at best. Do we need another NATO member that pays lip service to liberal Democratic values.
Really? I can see nothing in Haaretz, Jerusalem Post or any of the international press, Reuters etc. (Not even al Jazeera.) Do you have a link?
Even a potential reduction in its powers caused demonstrations earlier this year, and Netanyahu backed down. As I understand it, the Supreme Court is currently holding hearings as to whether the government has the right to infringe. Its suspension would be Gaza sized news, as many reservists have said they will no longer serve if the Government neuters the Supreme Court.
Well hopefully if some small good can come out of this dreadful debacle, it will finally be the end of Netanyahu’s rule and someone more pragmatic and constructive can take over. That certainly seems to be a popular opinion in Israel right now. Nothing is going to change until that happens, just more escalation and provocation on many sides as we have seen for the last decade. Fatah are weak and corrupt but they are at least willing to work with Israel, and Saudi/Jordan would definitely support such reconciliation efforts. If some sort of compromise can be achieved in the… Read more »
Suspended for good national security reasons. It’s their country to do with as they please, bought and paid for with IDF blood. The same type of supreme court reform will probably happen during January 2025 in the USA. If the 2024 elections are not tampered with.
I’d rather have Israel and it’s military might in NATO than some corrupt former soviet oligarchy. They are after all our natural allies.
Israeli Supreme court hasnt been suspended. Netanyahu was just reversing the status quo back to where parliament was supreme not the court as was the case maybe 20 years ago
this is how it works in Britain, as should be in Israel too as they have the Westminster system with no constitution.
Dont like Netanyahu , too bad, it was his election policy. But I can see Hamas has destroyed his political career as the attacks were on his watch
Yes he changed a rule and for good reason. Bibi Netanyahu is a true senior statesman and the right guy for the job. The world has not been so supportive of Israel and their plight than right now. Therefore he can elevate himself and his career even further by exacting revenge with extreme prejudice. Ending Hamas and returning Gaza to Israeli rule. It is time for Bibi to revert back to the mentality of his army days and be very decisive. With any luck, Iran will become directly involved and US public opinion will force Biden to apply some severe… Read more »
George, you really hate Ukraine, that is clear.
Graham, when you say it like that it sounds much worse than I intend. I dislike all four of the USSR founding soviet republics equally as much. Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Transcaucasia. The later splitting into other federal socialist republics sometime afterwards. Why do I feel this way? I’m glad you asked! They gave the world it’s first communist block of countries and tried to export their marxist filth to the rest of the world. Leading to revolutions, proxy wars and countless millions of unnecessary deaths. The first victims of communism are always their own people. Those who do not… Read more »
To be fair to Ukraine they were actually conquered by the Soviets….in the Ukraine soviet war 1917 to 1921…the very reason Ukraine has such an issue with and unfortunate links to the third Reich was it was the only way Ukraine saw a way to fight the Bolsheviks….it was a conquered nation under the iron fist of an ideology that basically said comply completely or die.
Ukraine has always had various factions within it’s shifting borders. The 1917 to 1921 revolution/war more accurately described as the Red vs White Russian Empire Civil War. One of the usual revolutions and civil wars that always come with communism/marxism takeovers. Ukrainians fought on both sides, those who opposed the Red Bolsheviks were the White Russians and included Ukrainian Nationalists. Needless to say the Reds won and purged the hive. Not even bothering with “political re-education.” Just slaughtering the White forces. They are a barbaric primitive lot. What did I say about the first victims of communism being it’s own… Read more »
Can’t hold what people did in the past against future generations. If that happens every British person is in deep trouble.
When the current generation make a point of resurrecting the sins of the past, I can and do. The current generation have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and should know better. Stepan Bandera cult being a prime example of a current generation resurrection of past evil. We British suffer from a twisted view of our past. We hate ourselves for the Atlantic slave trade for example. But forget that we were the leading force in Abolishment movement. Outlawing slavery in the entire British Empire at great expense. 24% of the world land surface and at the time, 25% of the… Read more »
Thanks George. Corruption in Ukraine may well have been due to it having been a Soviet republic, and you would hope or expect that after 30 years of independence that they would be less corrupt. But unlike eastern European countries who awere in the USSR sphere of influence, who were soon westernised by membership of the EU and NATO, that has not been Ukraine’s experience. I support Ukraine’s right to freedom, independence and the opportunity to join the EU and NATO. They have experienced the most horrendous invasion and deserve our sympathy which should not be withheld because certain officials… Read more »
The difference between the founding members of the USSR and Eastern European Warsaw pact member states. Is quite simply the latter were conquered by the red army and were reluctant communists, persuaded at gunpoint. Several if not all, had subsequent uprisings brutally put down by the kremlin. Once the nazis were defeated the Red Army NKVD, ensured communism was the only option the people had. Liberators instantly became dictators and the western allies turned our backs on those poor people. Poland’s immediate post war story was particularly sad. Remember, Poland had been split between the nazis and the soviets when… Read more »
Thanks George. Very interesting. You suggest that it was the Ukrainians that broke the Minsk accords, but the seperatists were most guilty of ceasefire violations, although admittedly the ceasefire was but one element of the accords. Anyway, you are very focussed on the corruption issue, and I am not interested in it, but am far more concerned at the monstrous war crimes committed by Putin and his forces. Sadly there is no prospect of even a ceasefire, let alone a lasting resolution. This conflict is unlikely to end whilst Putin is in power. The tragedy is that Putin’s successor, if… Read more »
Cheers Graham. I’m listening to the match and your reply arrived in my mailbox. The war crimes are committed by both sides, like I said there’s nothing to tell them apart. The main difference is the reporting bias. We only hear about the alleged Russian crimes. I’m sure Russians only hear about Ukraine crimes. Do not forget that the Russian and Ukrainian propaganda wings were all Glavlit trained. (Glavlit = Directorate for the protection of state secrets in the press.) Lies and half truths were their speciality. Nothing to tell them apart. The Ukrainian far right wing, who were and… Read more »
Thanks George. I recall that British soldiers too have been accused of, and sometimes found guilty of, Geneva Protocol violations and/or acting outside ROE in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. I am sure there are crimes on both sides in the Ukraine – Ukraine is gathering information on war crimes committed by the Russian forces and perhaps Russia is doing the same on any Ukrainian crimes. Similarly we see this issue in the Israel/Hama conflict. We in the west picked a side to support and we have picked Ukraine (it wasn’t that hard a choice as Russia was the invading… Read more »
Hi Graham, I don’t think I have exchanged so many messages with anyone else on this site. The subject is just too important to let go. Most war crimes have thankfully been lost in the fog of war. However, the trend for troops to carry body cams in changing that. It’s a change for the worse in my opinion. Sometimes things need to be done in the heat of the moment for operational success. That do not stand up to scrutiny later by people who were not there. It’s a touchy subject that I do not want to unpack here.… Read more »
Thanks George. You make your point very well. I echo your exclaim: God save the King!
Linka from my archives as promised.
https://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrainian-nationalist-volunteers-grows-269604
https://www.news18.com/news/world/azov-battalion-accused-of-committing-inhuman-crimes-against-ukrainians-theyre-supposed-to-protect-4893575.html
Thanks George. All very horrific – I hope justice will one day prevail.
It certainly is Graham. However, the takeaway here should be the date-2014 and the unescapable fact that both sides were reported as committing war crimes including executions. Also, the 3000 deaths were Ukrainians living in the Donbas-read ethnic Russians. Who many years later decided to leave Ukraine to become independent. One report is of an ethnic Russian mother who received her sons head in a box! So much for Ukrainian claims that they did not persecute ethnic Russians. Giving them good cause to want independence and then seek the protection of the “Rodina” and the b’stard Putin. Even if he… Read more »
I’ve replied to you but it awaits approval. There is a link to a story in the Guardian I assume is the problem.
Hi George.
Fascinating reading. I’m well aware of the Ukrainian Waffen SS Division, and the Auxiliary battalions in the partisan war. And Trawniki men in the concentration and death camps.
All that is fact.
I don’t loathe Ukraine like you do myself,
and want them to prevail and beat the evil of Putin.
But I respect your view, through your service in the Cold War. 👍
Cheers!! Read my reply to Graham that is awaiting approval. It contains an external link.
Perhaps I too have been well indoctrinated by my time in service. But it was with full consent and lots of private study. Knowing ones enemy can become an obsession.
I tried learning Russian and Polish to better understand them. Not very successfully I hasten to add. If you enjoy tongue twisters give it a go.
Hi George, I look forward to reading your reply once the ‘UKDJ authorities’ have approved it. I served 1975-2009 and was very much a Cold War warrior, undertaking 4 postings in Germany, one being after the Berlin Wall fell – 1976 with 2SG LAD, Munster; 1982 – 4 Armd Wksp, Detmold; 1983-4 at 21 Engr Regt Wksp, Nienburg; 1991-92 at 28 Amph Engr Regt Wksp, Hameln. The enemy to me up to the disolution of the USSR and Warsaw Pact was very much 3rd Shock Army. In 1992, RE officers of 28 Engr Regt (but not me, the REME guy!)… Read more »
I seem to have missed this reply Graham, apologies. I understand your position and respect it. I always got on very well with our REME LAD. It was a great place to go for a chin wag with the Tiffy to find out what was going on and have a brew. That applied equally to my time in the regulars and TAVR. The armorers were good people to know too. Especially for tweaking and tightening up weapons prior to competitions. A bottle of the good stuff helped to lubricate the working parts above and beyond the opposition, if you follow.… Read more »
Thanks George. I recall that an AFV crew invariably gave the reccy mechs a multi-pack of Herforder beer (‘golden handbag’, I think was the phrase) as reward for pulling them out of a bog.
Мы должны надеяться на мир, друг мой.
I fondly remember the 10 pack of Herforder Pils sold by the NAAFI in Munster and elsewhere. A golden or yellow handbag indeed. Liquid good will.
Good point. Many German-occupied countries had Waffen SS units.
Ukraine’s WW2 experience should not lead us to minimise our empathy for a country experiencing the most horrendous invasion, daily attacks and partial occupation some 80 years later.
Agree, and it doesn’t. It is history. Just a not so well known history, though Putin and his fascists will push the point for all its worth.
Yup! Totally agree!
Thank you David, I was beginning to wonder about the people in this UKDJ community.
These people simply refuse to see the brutality of the Islamists, when Hamas attacked, these people were quick to point fingers at Israel and try to argue Hamas was provoked into it by ‘decades of oppression’.
By looks of the protest marches there are still plenty of these idiots out there.
Are there really though? How many were marching, 5, 19 thousand, 20? How many were Palestinian or Muslim, so in some cases actually against the nations they reside in? I don’t know. Out of a population of 60 million plus.
I think the silent majority, like me, support Israel at heart, but also want Palestine to have its independence while acknowledging that Israel too has overstepped the mark on numerous occasions.
For me, the difference is that Hamas and IJ are the same snake. If they finish with the Jews it is westerners next.
Yes but as you have alluded to they are a very vocal minority they will play the ‘racist’ and/or ‘islamophobia’ card whenever challenged, that tactic alone keeps the ‘silent’ majority silent.
Agreed. That, there is no doubt! And it is a massive issue.
Yeah, it is a bad thing that these vocal minorities can control the majority by the threat of ‘character assassination’ via social media. The majority needs to stand up to and expose this hypocritical behavior.
I don’t think they control anything, the UK is currently not participating in the conflict nor is there any chance it will.
Social media is a powerful tool and it is often abused by people who want to politically manipulate others or make themselves look like a victim.
We have seen this where people get ‘cancelled’ i.e. fired from their job because someone got offended by some so-called ‘microaggression’ This is an example of how an angry (vocal) minority can have undue influence over the lives of ordinary folk.
Very well said. I’m pleased there are still some right minded people here.
Completely agree with you. But my main concern is that the attention of the west is now taken away from Ukraine. Israel is more than capable of taking care of this themselves, I suspect we may see the USMC and European countries carry out an armed evacuation of our folks from Gaza and then let Israel get on with it.
Hi mate. I’m unsure. There’s a difference I think between media and political attention and that of the military and the intelligence community, which I think would be as focused on Ukraine as before even though it no longer makes the headline news. As long as supply of weapons and information continues, Ukraine remains NATOs main concern. It is only the US supplying weapons I think, not European NATO. I assume Iron Dome missiles, JDAMs and such, which UKR don’t use. I don’t think they use JDAM? The danger is I agree if the west deploys for a greater operation… Read more »
Right now I’m not sure our being (over)stretched is a bad thing. Government has to stop kidding itself that we can do it all on thruppence a week and jam on Thursdays. Efficiency savings won’t cut it!
We outspent and outproduced the Soviet Union. That’s why we won. We need to do much the same with China/Russia/Iran, which means a significant uplift, probably to pre 1990 levels.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with you Jon, any significant increase in defence spending is never going to happen. I know I sound like a ‘Debbie Downer’ but I am a realist – this government – and the next – is going to continue the current status quo and spend the absolute bare minimum on defence.
Short of us being dragged into an all out war, I see nothing changing. If we are dragged in, regrettably it’s already too late.
Lloyd Austin put it very eloquently last week when as asked about supporting Israel and Ukraine with arms at the same time; he responded by saying ‘Don’t worry, the US can walk and chew gum at the same time’.
That about sums it up.
Hi DM. I think it’s also important to note Israel gave control of the Gaza back to the Palestinians, who proceeded to vote in a terrorist organisation, Hammas.
To be clear, I certainly do not condone the bombing of civilian buildings in Gaza. I appreciate this maybe a difficult analogy, however might there be parallels to Bomber Command flattening Belin and the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokoyo?
Horrible state of affairs for all though, especially for the children.
Morning Chris.
Yes, I was unaware of that detail and only read of it the other day after this mess started, when my wife asked me why it existed separate from the West Bank.
Taken from the Egyptians, then handed to the Palestinians.
When a terror group controls a large urban area with millions of civilians and puts its assets and its hostages in that area, how to destroy them without such casualties? Impossible, and they know it.
Cheers Daniele, a tragic state of affairs. Ultimately Hammas knew what would come. They area responsible for the suffering bestowed upon their people.
And by the way, The Springboks! Bloody hell mate, so, so good. We don’t have much chance on Saturday!
hah ha, don’t tell my wife- she’s backing England! What a match though, really excting!
Interesting article in today’s DT arguing that Netanyahu made a strategic error in weakening the Palestinian leaders in the West Bank by failing to restrain the Jewish fundamentalists building settlements in the West Bank. The result was to encourage Palestinian support for Hamas.
An interesting point you raise Paul. I never understood the expansion of settlements in the West bank. Fuel to the fire, seems nuts.
That’s what vocal minorities do, other side just has bad any criticism of Israel is met with anti Semitic comments.
I love Jewish people and the Jewish faith but hate the actions and leadership of the Israeli government.
I’m not anti semitic for making that statement.
I hate Hamas and the continuing failure of the government of Palestine as well that’s not Islamophobia.
If you really want to make that point might I suggest the perjorative run in “I love the Jewish people, but…” be omitted. It’s like the “some of my best friends are Jews, but…” line.
It is not antisemitic to say you hate the actions of the Israeli government. So just say that.
Because their protests would have no effect on China.
Tell me about it! Same thing here in Auckland NZ. Mainly ignorant uni kids and a handful of career agitators. Not a jot of criticism nor condemnation from the pro Palestinian mob when Hammas were murdering Israeli citizens . Bloody hypocrites, the the lot of them.
100% agree. I want both sides to prevail. It’s just a pity both sides are controlled by absolute corrupt animals and the people of Israel and Palestine are so hate filled it’s hard to see an end to it. Both sides are willing to support corrupt leaders if they wave the nationalist flag.
Maybe we could start building a big wall round the entire place.
Sun Tzu said :- “The greatest victory is that which requires no battle” So you would divert the support we give to the Ukraine to Israel ! Drop supporting a country that is European and has been invaded by a full on Russian Army to support a superbly armed and trained ME country that is fighting 40k terrorists. Israel doesn’t need nor want our physical help, they probably have more Tanks, guns, fighters, troops and Nucs than most of European NATO put together. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again there is an axis of evil comprising of Russia,… Read more »
Completely agree, there really is a likely anti western axis…I’m not sure it’s completely formed but it’s there..Iran, China and Russia want the same thing…an end to western hegemony. It’s also gaining support in Africa, South America and even some European countries.
All these countries are A useless B more willing to fight each other than the west.
The only threat to western hegemony comes from the west. It’s a combination of Isolationist hill billy hicks (MAGA) and middle class left leaning nihilism that views everything through a racial prism that wants to blame white people for all the worlds woes.
If we could transport both sides to the Middle East and let them duke it out with the Israelis and Palestinians in some sort of giant thunder dome the world would be a much better place. 😀
But it’s so much about if we would win ( I’m sure the west would come out on top, being a western myself)..it’s about the catastrophic nature of the conflict that will occur..I don’t want 10s millions dying because the world degenerates into a global conflagration…I would much rather the west make it clear it’s not defendable across the globe as a way to head off conflict….also remember the west it’s dependent on a lot of resources that site in places that could and would fall under the influence of other powers…there is also the fact that it’s not just… Read more »
Making Aggression Great Again is being called out at lincolnproject.us where attempts to subvert the 2023 US Presidential Election are being identified (third party candidates) and the many 91 enditements of the 45th president/prisoner are documented.
Accountability is still something that the US Judiciary does as the orange wana-be dictator is finding out.
Let’s hope the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution keeps us safe from the post-truth delusions of that fraudster.
Slava Ukraine! Slava Heroyam!
#StandWithUkraine 🇺🇦🇺🇲🇬🇧🇸🇪🇫🇮🇳🇴🇵🇱🇦🇺🇸🇮🇸🇰🇱🇻🇱🇹🇪🇪🇩🇰🇩🇪🇪🇸
Well my friend I’m of the opinion that there is nothing to choose between Ukraine and Russia. Both were privileged founding members of the soviet union, with identical communist histories. My sworn enemies through the Cold War. They are now corrupt oligarchies and not even close to proper democracies. The current war is in my opinion the product of EU and Western powers interference. Including instigating a coupe against an elected corrupt government, just to install another even more corrupt government. Complete with far right Stepan Banderas fascists. Quite honestly Ukraine is not worth the bother. Israel on the other… Read more »
That’s exactly what a Russian bot would say. I’m sure George is not one 😀
I am most certainly not! I simply detest both countries that gave the world the evils of the soviet union, with equal venom.
So Hezbollah have now started lobbing rockets and missiles at Israel from Lebanon, clearly lead on by Iran…unfortunately this means it’s very likely that this will now become a Gaza ( Hamas) Lebanon ( Hezbollah) Israeli conflict, with Iran as a sponsor. It’s probable that Syria will become involved in supporting Hezbollah if there is a lsraeli Lebaneses conflict…You can pretty much be sure that Iran will now be working hard in the Westbank to find extremists who can be used to ignite that area as well..specifically to try and drag Jordan into the conflict and weaken its links with… Read more »
Very well said. We need to show our support for the fellow parliamentary democracy, Israel.
The Syrian army has been seriously weakened by years of civil war I think the real threat comes from the fact that Iran’s revolutionary guard is present in Syria. Secondly, Israel is within striking range of Iran’s large stockpile of ballistic missiles should they decide to get involved.
Hi bringer..yes with Syria..it’s not some much about a state on state conflict with Israel as it’s not capable..more as a facilitator of support to Hezbollah…a flow for funds,weapons and fighters.
Think yore spot on Jonathan. That being said, if I were Hezbollah I’d keep my head down and not interfere. They should take a leaf from the 67 war and Yom kippur book. I would not tackle the Israelis Lions nuts!
Fortunately there is also a concerted effort to calm things down, not least 2 US carrier groups. Also read the US are planning to position 2000 troops in the region: location not known. Read somewhere there are just 100,000 people left in Gaza city so the majority have left. The IDF ought be able to do what they need to do without levelling the hospitals – destroy Hamas tunnels and centres. If Egypt can be persuaded to allow humanitarian aid into south Gaza civilian casualties can be largely avoided.
I doubt the presence of two US carrier groups will calm things down and cause Hamas to desist firing rockets into Israel or to deter Israel from launching a ground operation into the Gaza strip.
I fear the IDF will lose a lot of soldiers when they enter the strip and they won’t get all of Hamas – but they have to do it.
Probably not, but I think their presence makes a statement that if push comes to shove, the US will defend Israel and will not countenance an increase in the scope of the conflict e.g. Syria.
I think the Hamas plan was always to draw IDF into Gaza with the aim of inflicting losses and generating more sympathy for civilian casualties. Rooting out Hamas will require patience and creativity.
Thanks. We finally opted for a different technique with the IRA and the other NI terrorist organisations….a political solution.
Me thinks another Russian bot has escaped the Farm. When your diverting aid from Ukraine what do you expect to happen there?
With any luck they will kill each other off. While NATO builds up it’s military to Cold War levels and we prosper.
No. They have double downed
Iran has warned Israel of an imminent pre emotive strike. That’s going to lead to a wider regional war and probably drag in Syria, Lebanon, possibly Jordan and Egypt. These nations aren’t normally natural allies but their unified hatred of Israel is their joining factor.
I think Iran will attempt some ballistic or cruise missile strikes.
I doubt it, all these nations are have their public game then their private one. Israel is a distraction to most of them. They all know that ultimately a face off with Israel and god forbid the USA is the only thing that can actually end their regimes and very fast. They all seen what happened to Saddam and Gaddafi. Israel occupies a tiny slither of land with no resources.
Iran maybe, Syria not really, Egypt and Jordan no not this time. Lebanon probably.
I missed the Iranian threat but have now spotted it in the Press – made late on 17th Oct by Iran’s foreign minister, but no sign of anything so far.
I don’t see Egypt and Jordan wanting to wage war on Israel, no matter what other Arab nations do.
has this type of aircraft been retired by the USA? a working AWACS would be a help here but we do not have any.
Not in the slightest!! AWACS is a totally different animal to this capability.
Sentinel on the other hand…
It had occurred to me with Martin’s earlier post talking of retired ELINT aircraft that it was Sentinel he had in mind, even though it’s not such an aircraft.
No idea why you would want an AWACS in the area. Rivet Joint for SIGNIT and P8 for maritime is what’s useful. The Rivet Joint let’s us gather intel from all party’s including Israel so they don’t go to far and the P8 let’s us monitor if anyone is supplying Hamas by the sea.
Israel has its own sea blockade of Gaza for 20 years or more…nothing gets through
They have their own MPA design based on an executive jet
https://www.iai.co.il/p/eli-3360-mpa
I’m no expert on AWACS capabilities but if it could handle it then one use I can think of might be monitoring for situations such as yesterday’s hospital explosion where the Israelis say that they have not only SIGINT that has captured Hamas messages about a misfire and explicit naming of the hospital where the explosion was seen but that they also have radar tracks of rockets fired from Gaza with one hitting the hospital. Would a good AWACS be able to capture that sort of event? I have heard that even in a sea environment decluttering well enough to… Read more »
The IDF spokesman on TV news showed a hand held map of Gaza indicating dozens of rocket misfires. Satellite images?
In Cyprus, we have both an OTH radar ( two sites, transmit and recieve ) and also one or possibly 2 HF DF ( Pusher ) systems, though unsure on status of these.
Though the tech involved and whether they’re useable in this event for small rocket launches is way beyond me.
Lol.
It’s about time that the British military was deployed, to support Israel!
Adam, I don’t think you understand geo-politics and the role of our armed forces.