The Royal Air Force redeployed six Typhoon fighter jets from a NATO air policing mission in Romania to the Middle East to assist in defending Israel against Iranian drone and missile attacks.
Previously stationed in Romania to help protect NATO’s eastern flank against potential Russian aggression, the RAF Typhoons were part of a broader commitment to maintaining security in Eastern Europe.
The redeployment to the Middle East was necessitated, say the Government, by the urgent need to support Israel as it faces an intense barrage of kamikaze drones and missile strikes purportedly from Iran.
While other NATO allies have stepped up to cover the gap left by the RAF in Eastern Europe, this strategic shift raises questions about the UK’s defence capabilities and budget allocations, given the multiple global security challenges.
The RAF’s involvement in operations in the Middle East further stretches its resources, which are already committed to various international hotspots.
According to the Prime Minister’s official spokesman:
“Those jets shot down a number of one-way Iranian attack drones over Iraq and Syria. We already have a significant presence in the region. But as a prudent measure, we temporarily moved a number of aircraft from Romania to bolster our existing footprint. Allied air forces continue to patrol Nato airspace to ensure it is protected from all threats and we have coordinated with Nato and our allies… to ensure there is no gap in Romania.”
There is no substitute for mass…
No doubt this redeployment was duly noted by Russia and other members of the ‘axis of evil’ authoritarian regimes.
Indeed intended or not, this will be seen as a weakening of the support for Ukraine, which along with the NATO eastern front in general in any sensible reality, should be a higher priority than Israel if one has to make a choice and again it will be noted by our enemies that superficially at the very least that was the actual choice made even if for purely practical reasons it did made some sense.
In reality it clearly demonstrates our overall lack of resources and will only encourage a Russia and friends to push them to breaking point. Meanwhile our Govt is shown to react to immediate threats as f we are still living in the post Soviet era of peace when in reality we will likely be faced with large threats at different points for which we are patently unprepared and doing little to rectify the situation. Madness to rely on US support when many in Congress are talking about the US not being able to support both Israel and Ukraine and that Israel is the better ally with the innate nativity of where that potentially leads. And that’s before China and the Pacific enters the equation. We need to get real in this Country and Europe generally about the risks.
In a way the Iranian missile assault on Israel could signal the birth of the so called ‘new world order’ that Putin and co have been wanting. By all accounts Israel was supported and given practical help by the US, the UK, France, Germany, Jordan, the UAE, SA and Egypt. The US has been entertaining Iraqi leaders this week. If this group can mature into a ‘coalition of the willing’ and India can be weaned away from its attachment to Russia then Iran, Russia, N Korea and China will be a lonely club – powerful but containable by ‘the west’ if we hustle with building up security and defence. A lot depends on whether Israel can bring itself to believe that it is not alone and has reliable friends who are prepared to share the load. Ditto for Ukraine. I’m not a big fan of Macron but be might be right about putting EU boots on the ground in Ukraine.
Hi paul, unfortunately there are a lot more nations than that falling into the chinas and Russias influence…infact the west is probably more isolated from a lot of the rest of the world than anytime I can think of and a lot of nations are going to stay neutral even if not pulled in.
Hi Jonathan, well there are a lot of countries where the leadership finds the authoritarian model attractive…no surprise there. Maintaining democracy is not easy. How ‘representative’ is parliament, really? But I hold to my main point; that reconciling Israel with the circumstances of its birth and welcoming Israel into a community of the West and neighbours would be an inflexion point in world history.
The UK is the oldest and probably most representative democracy around. Every system has it’s quirks but this one tends to flip power effectively & relatively quickly when the population want it to.
No it’s not, and never has been; in fact I can’t believe anyone thinks that unless they’re wilfully deluding themselves 🤣
The UK is barely democratic. 2/3 of the constitution is unelected. The universal franchise in the UK is only 100 years old and the electoral system results in governments which usually lean in the opposite direction to the majority of voters.
Yes, you are right. We don’t have proportional representation, more the pity. Nor are the Lords elected. Only when both of these are in place will we be nearer a democracy.
We do not have a written Constitution either. Relying on precedence as our only form of Constitution.
Ah like germany maybe. PR works so well there. Giving the Greens a veto on the military.
exactly – proportional representation gives the smaller parties a disproportinate influence in ‘government’ policy …a bit like the recent lib/tory or earlier lib/labour pacts ..only more so.
Those hankering for proportional representation or how our decomocracy isn’t a decomcrary need to have a long hard look at other countries.
As for the Lords – well unfortunately a lot of recent lords are already ‘elected’ by outgoing PM’s to bolster their own party politics.
I would suggest the life long peerages that were previously in situ did actually provide some balance to the political nature of many of the current incumbents’party lines.
It not ideal nothing is and it could perhaps do with some chnages BUT … but its a damn site better than a lot of so called ‘democracys’ around the world …
We could be like France or heaven forbid the two house US system….hows that working for ’em.
Maybe we sholdu be careful what we wish for.
By the way precedence works quite well. Flexing with the times. I’m not sure the written constitution the Americans worship helped very much as the capital building was being stormed. The constitutional monarchy we have as an accident of history seems to work well for us. Always good to have someone who can sack the top political leader in an instant.
That sounds like like the moanings of someone in the minority.
By unelected constitution I presume you mean the House of Lords? While I think that the House does need some reform (primarily to do with limitations on how those lords and ladies are appointed by the sitting Prime Minister), I do think that there is a place for it. They are appointed as experts in their fields- lawyers, business, economics, etc. rather than because they can campaign more effectively than the other guy- and I think that having experts involved in government is hugely important. Their role is to apply their expertise to legislation etc. that comes out from the Commons- to apply best practice, moderation, etc.
You only have to look to the US, where both upper and lower houses are elected and everything is decided by lobbies and whoever has the loudest voice. Elected Everyone is not always the best way.
You’re being a bit disingenuous regarding universal suffrage there- no country had completely universal (not based on gender, ethnicity or religion) until the first decade of the 1900s, with the UK having it fully in place in 1928. It should be noted that we were one of the first to remove restrictions based on ethnicity and religion, back in 1791. Women also got the right to vote in the UK at the same time as men who didn’t own property- so it wasn’t simply gender that held someone back.
Is that a good thing that so many were disenfranchised for so long? No. Is it a pattern of human behaviour throughout human history across the whole world? Yes. Should we continually say how bad the UK is now because it was worse in the past? No, that would be ridiculous.
Well said.
It would indeed..if a two state solution can somehow be developed and there are normalised relationships between Israel, Egypt and Jordan….a major fracture line could be healed….but I’m not sure the Middle East will settle as the fracture lines within the Muslim world are actually becoming more and more profound to be honest.
A change of perspective: the major fracture line is that between Israel and the West.
I’m not sure it’s the major fracture line. But it is a fracture line.
1) The west has a bit of a tendency to hold Isreal to a greater standard than it would hold itself and relations have not always been the best…but the west is intrinsically a bit hypocritical in regards to none western nations….there is also still a fare amount of antisemitism wafting around..but I would say that’s been overtaken by Islamophobia…Zionists are not seen as a direct threat by most people…..Islamists are.
2) The west did sort of abandon Israel to its fate..especially up until the very end of the 73 war ( and most people thing Golda essentially used nuclear blackmail to get US aid…keep us in the fight or we irradiate the Levant) I would say the British pull out of the mandate was a bit of a betrayal to be honest…).
But compared to the Arab isreali fracture line it’s essentially benign, the west and Isreal are not ever likely to fight a war or destruction against each other. Although some of the more radical Zionist commentators have in the past said the Sampson option should include nuclear attacks on the west…but they are the fruitcake end.
On this continent the Soviets held sway until 1990 (in the east) after which many eastern block countries effectively joined the west. That doesn’t appear to be changing. Resistence is strong. True China is trying to infiltrate many other countries however it is just a matter of time before some of those countries go – thanks for the loan or whatever – however we can manage without you now.
India will do what is best for India. Under Modi and the BJP. Its reliance on Russia is based on the fact so much kit is Russian. They have an admirable policy of striving for self sufficiency in weaponry. Some of their up and coming kit seems really efficient, so as time moves on, the apparent need for Russia will diminish. I think “the west” makes assumptions about India far too much imho. Their China containment policy is sound, and considering they have hostile states on all sides? They are doing their best.
I agree except on India. I don’t see how they could get rid of Russian ties for 3 reasons:
The reverse of alliance (Russia on the north, India on the South of China). This is better than a Russia fully aligned with China for India.
Armement purchasing: Russian stuff is cheap, nobody make cheap weapons in the west, but this may be the weakest of all reasons
Energy needs: India is expending rapidly it’s economy, they do need a lot of energy, nobody in the west can guarantee they’ll provide it.
Everything taken into consideration, India will pursue it’s own interests and these topic are not addressed at the moment.
Agreed 👍
Ukraine Will lost the war , what Nato has to do is to say to Mr. Zekenski to Seat in a negotiating table right now to get an agreement with Russia, Crimea and Donbas are lost so better to finish this massacre for NOTHING, the result Will be the same .
What Britain has to do is To increase defence spending at least to 3% sending a clear Signal to Russia, with British defence cuts they,re sending a message of weakness to Putin.
Don,t forget to China, Britain has to maintain a global capability to counter a possible Chinese agression to Taiwán or Japan and to prevent escallation in the persian gulf vital for oil supplies.
Britain Minimum forces of 25 escorts, 15 RFA,s, 400 tanks and 250 fighters are needed. Army Troops has to be Increased to 100.000 at least, Less than this IS dangerous.
Don,t expect always U S. aid, don,t forget Suez 1956.
Absolutely agree with you 🍺
I absolutely disagree with him.
Russia will lose, no amount of wishful thinking from Putin lovers will change that.
Please point us to ANY agreement upheld by the Russians concerning Ukraine let alone any others!
Great message to send.
Take land .
Hold it and we will let you keep it.
So next time ivan goes for the Baltic states what do we say?
Oh ok you are there …yeah…its OK keep it?
Donbas and Crimea are Ukraine territory. they will be taken back
Ivan is screwed in the mid to long term.
He has lost the Baltic and Black Sea and parts of the Sea of Azov.
The russian economy has tanked.
Ok. Wait a few months and we we,ll see please don,t mix your wishes with the reality, be realistic not fanatic.
What wait a few months for Bidens inability to provide action due to the two house US system to have the desired effect , or wait until Trump comes in just to ensure it?
Neither of those are due to Putins capabilities- unless you count the old spy Honeytrap as showing a brilliant strategic mind.
May you can pass that critique on?
Eager to see the next few month. I don’t think you have the whole picture. Even if you pretend to, because the only thing available for sure is that army production in Europe is rising sharply. I won’t tell much more except that you are deluding yourself. Russia is no longer in the hand of Putin. Now Russia is under Chinese dependency. Though do you really believe we are scared? So funny… Regards from France. Russia « chess player » is facing the consequences of his stupid gamble. Just look at some discours occurring in EU to get in touch with reality. Peacefull Europeans are turning falcons. Yes people are scared of what is happening, not only scared, but furious to be pushed in this situation by the hubris of a dying dictature. We are talking of 700 million Europeans that are really not happy with the foolish actions taken by this ridicule man living in Moscow. He should better have looked on what’s happening in Siberia, which he is losing.
Well, by their actions the Russians have also lost the Baltic – I wonder how the chess grandmasters missed that one?
👍
The russian economy hasn’t tanked
I doubt Argentina are sleeping as well.
Sure Argentine Air Force will fly them near the Falklands at some point to show off new wings. But not to close 🇬🇧 🚀
Their neighbors to the north (Brazil) have started building a massive Air Force with gripen NG. They do have power balance problems, the F-16 buy isn’t about the Falklands.
Quite. As a nation, if we make a commitment to air-police Romanian skies we should stick to it. We should also support our allies elsewhere (middle east). If we choose to send additional assets to Cyprus to support Israel then WE need to be backfilling in Romania also. Those that suggest what we did is OK, because we have NATO partners who can help, are simply papering over the cracks of an RAF that is wafer-thin on manpower and aircraft. We’re advertising to our adversaries that we couldn’t cope in a concerted effort against us. The time for capability gaps and asking allies to help backfill should be over. We’ve had plenty of warnings now and need to put up a convincingly robust show in defense, where robust means strength in depth.
…and we agreed, with the US, to guarantee Ukraine’s security in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons.
Mmmm….
😀on the basis of E=MC2 technically Mass is just stored energy😂
Regardless of how many Typhoons we have, bit of a waste isn’t it? Advanced 4.5 gen air superiority aircraft shooting down slow drones with presumably equally advanced A2A missiles. Could really do with something like the Super Tucano/FA-50 with APKWS for drone plinking.
Would you want to fly over Syria or Iraq in a Tucano? No, me neither.
Depends on how you calculate the waste. If you hold that the reason the RAF were ordered to down the drones, was a strategic equation that said any successful attack by Iran on Israel would lead to a much larger conflict – and impact on the British economy…. then it seems like remarkable value for money.
Also, with Typhoon they had the ability to operate from British sovereign territory. Something like Super Tucano definitely couldn’t have done that. And it’s unlikely the Iraqis would have let us base those assets on their soil for fear of reprisal by Iran (and the Syrians certainly wouldn’t)
We have critical and potentially existential vulnerabilities throughout defence, The strategic environment has deteriorated significantly in the last 2 years.
Our people and equipment are being stretched to deal with crises developing all over the world yet Downing Street still persists with Peace Dividend defence budgets. The house is on fire and these idiots still won’t move. What event will it take for them to realise how wrong this is and how profoundly stupid they are?
Probably nothing short of a bombing raid on Westminster itself.
Sadly true, it reminds me of that classic scene from the original War of the Worlds film where the naive Catholic Priest approaches the alien saucer with a white flag saying we mean you no harm and swiftly getting zapped. Rishi and co could play that role perfectly when the time comes though I expect they will simply get Shapps to do it while they all whiz off across the pond for a new life while issuing McArthur like platitudes about a return some day so keep up the resistance guys.
I assume you mean by a subversive power – and you are not advocating a US type Civil unrest assault or a more direct Guy Fawkes style action……
Rishi is busy dealing with the smoking crisis; banning the sale of cigarettes and cigars. I’m not sure whether this is a net zero project but anyway he’s too busy for defence matters.
Other countries are legalising cannabis and making a tidy sum from taxing it while our clowns are still trying to make a legacy. If the smoking doesn’t work I doubt he has time for another try. More flops than a flip flop factory.
They down graded Cannabis from Class B to Class C and even that caused all sorts of problems both from a criminal & Mental health aspect.
Stronger strains and more usage as people thought that meant it was all OK really.
I don’t believe it should be totally decriminalised – even if they would tax i. The impact is not worth the money it would generate.
I see the Jocks are increasing the minimum alcohol prices…thats something we (England) should also do.
However some of that should go directly to funding alcohol based heath and education not just go straght to the beer companys profits.
As for the smoking ban – anyone else find it interesting it only covers tobacco and not vapes.
Yet vapes are only supposed to be there to help you stop smoking?Nothing to do with the tobacco companbies involvment in vaping of course?
Literally smoke and mirrors.
They are used to being able to react deal with ‘small’ events as they happen though even then under stress it seems they simply can’t accept the big change in World Geopolitics that’s taking place even as individual Ministers actually warn about it, the big faith in the US cavalry seems naively solid despite the signs of a possible Custer’s last stand in Europe from that direction, certainly if Trump prevails. Big talk and little actual action actually makes that scenario more likely, being a loyal obedient supportive lapdog to the US may only go so far if the US finds other priorities to consider, yet this seems to be our overwhelming defence policy or is it merely a naively held child like comfort blanket in reality.
You can not just wave a magic wand, to make resources appear from nowhere.
Yes the peace dividend budgets have gone on for too long!
It is going to take time to rebuild capability. And to train new pilots.
We dont need to retire the 30-odd Tranche 1s though. Thats not about making things appear from thin air…
Have we not got enough PILOTS any more ?
I think the policy is to reduce the number of planes until we have enough pilots, because that’s easier than training pilots.
Meirion. UK defence has been treated appallingly by our politicians for over 20 years. Even if they can be bothered (and I’m not at all convinced by that) this doesn’t get fixed for years.
My principle complaint is that we’ve now well passed the 2 year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and there has been no substantial change of direction in defence policy or funding by the UK government. The very least they could have delivered is a commitment to stop UK armed forces getting smaller. They could have even gone as far as expanding existing programmes such as Sky Sabre or increased the number of Challenger 3 upgrades or Type 31 Frigate builds. But we’ve had nothing of any significance we’ve not even started programmes to fully replace the equipment gifted to Ukraine. It’s nowhere near good enough. They need to be pushed hard,
Exactly!
Nor have they recognized the need to mobilize British industry (like the French are doing with theirs) and develop UK Intellectual Property and design/production capability.
Also others ( USA, Germany) – as always – seem to benefit from the dividends of war. Their industries move quickly and at scale. The UK has tremendous support from Ukraine, but may lose out to any post-war benefits once this is all over – as usual.
Not sure what ‘mobilizing industry’ you think the French are doing. We are increasing missile, shell and drone production more than them, the only thing they are doing better is with Caesar SPG.
At least both parties are commiting to 2.5% “when we feel like it”, although more and sooner would be nice
Except the tories will do it by moving other expenses into the defence budget rather than increasing the actual money to spend.
The tories are cutting £3b from the defence budget already so any talk from them about it increasing is just lies.
All tories do is lie, the only thing they’re any good at, and it’s still piss poor 🤣
…and more than a passing resemblance to the start of WWII and the “phoney war.”
Sadly history looks like it still has a nasty habit of repeating itself…
The lack of Fast Jet Sqn numbers is well known.
Even the 7 Typhoon Sqn level is a bit of a fiddle, as 2 extra Sqns were raised to add to a 5 Sqn force when the 3 GR4 Sqns were cut in 2019 to maintain force levels at 8 Sqns, 7 Typhoon, 1 F35.
In 2010 there were 12 Sqns, and in 97 when Labour came in I count 23.
Not sure I agree with that , when the 5th squadron was formed 2015 ish only around 100 Typhoons had been delivered by 2021 ish when the 7th formed they had around 140 available, though many were rotated in and out of storage. The T3’s were held in storage as they were built 2015-2019 ish and some of the T1’s. Going forward they will have 107 so they won’t have the luxury of keeping planes in storage so the fleet will no doubt be worked harder to maintain 7 squadrons.
I tend to agree Andrew- probably 6 will be the number or 7 with reduced aircraft complement.
Yes 12 fast jet squadrons was always the peace time minimum for a stable world…from 2014 we should have actually had a plan to have more..but even getting to 12 is important.
Even 12 now seems a world away.
Agree, 12 squadrons 8 Typhoon and four F35 seems like an absolute minimum number needed.
devils in the detail -well put Daniele.
It is. They were desperate to keep Sqn number plates up to even that pathetic level, so created 2 more Sqns without increasing the buy of Typhoons to furnish them.
With Tornado going the number would have reduced to 6. 6!!!! 5x Typhoon and 617.
Scandalous, as we have lamented many times here my friend.
Its a sad reflection Daniele. On a nicer note, I’m off to Cape Town for a couple of weeks of sun and cheap seafood. See you all on the site in a wee while! Stay well, Chris
Enjoy mate, take care.
…and a “Squadron” used to imply a fighting force of 12 aircraft, with half-a-dozen reserves and hangar queens. RAF Bomber Squadrons used to have double this. What passes for a Squadron these days is sadly closer to 8 aircraft or even less.
Er, your timelines and numbers are all mixed up! RAF Squadron numbers have always varied massively. In the 50’s in Germany they were 22, gradually reduced to 12. Then in the mid 70’s they went up to 16 again, with the 2 RAFG Harrier squadrons having 24 for a while. As to RAF Bomber squadrons the complements that you are talking about were WW2! For most of the post war period they were 8, certainly that was the Canberra and V Force complement.
Errrr… I never mentioned timelines old fruit.
The baseline figure for a RAF Squadron has always been 12 active serviceable aircraft, and yes, in WWII the heavy bomber stations had individual squadrons with in excess of 20+ aircraft – especially for maximum effort raids. Obviously there have been variations over the decades and people and politicians will try and forget history for their own reasons
The RAF has been in action on Op SHADER attacking Daesh targets for nearly 10 years. Added to that they have recently attacked Houthi missile launch sites and now take on Iranian drones. They have been unable to also cover their Romanian duties for NATO – this is not acceptable.
Too bloody true the naivety is beyond belief and people wonder why Putin and co believe the West is on its last legs. The strong talk has only a mirage of actual power to support it and that is the most worrying delusion in our leaders it’s all based on the expectation the US is at our side and always will be rather than any strength of our own. Putting our neck on the line to show we deserve their support isn’t half as reliable as they think I fear but it seems to be their only serious defence policy. We have even somewhat thwarted European efforts for united defence efforts in fear it threatens that US shield, even as the US rightly tells us all to get real about defence. Talk about eggs in one basket.
Hi Graham, whilst I absolutely agree with whats being said on here reference our lack of mass – for whatever reasons, I cant but help think we might also be missing the point with this re-deployment of our Typhoons.
Not sure to many other NATO nations could mount such an operation from their home bases. We after all have Cyprus sat conveniently only several hundred miles off the Levant. Other airforces would probably require lots of tanker support just to get their jets into the area. Not everyone has that capability.
Yes while we could also accommodate them on Cyprus, if they are staying for say several weeks (entirely possible) then they would also require some form of logistical train to support them. We have all that already as its our SBA. So really it makes more sense for us to send more jets to assist and let others back fill our vacated roles. It goes without saying that we should be able to conduct both sets of Ops simultaneously with however many aircraft are required.
Hi Deep, your glass is half full and mine is half empty!
I agree that the RAF achieves good results in the Levant due to our use of our Cyprus air base, RAF Akrotiri.
Not sure who you are talking about regarding ‘accomodating them on Cyprus’? No. 83 Expeditionary Air Group (EAG) has deployed a lot of kit out there including No. 903 EAW with its Typhoons drawn from Lossiemouth and Coningsby, for Op SHADER. They will have their logisitic supply train well in place – they have been doing that for nearly 10 years.
We can clearly conduct Op SHADER (anti-Daesh) and do the anti-Houthi missions (occasional though they are) from Akrotiri. The issue was that we had to abandon the NATO Romanian air policing mission (perhaps only for a short time??) to strengthen the effort in the Med/Levant – which suggest that we can’t do both at the same time. That is the worry.
Evening mate, sorry wasn’t clearer, meant other NATO AFs being accommodated on Cyprus. That and we have our logistics in place on Cyprus. Was rather badly worded I’m afraid!
I agree we should be able to conduct both missions sets simultaneously, but unfortunately we are where we are with assets(sadly lacking).
Quite what the Govt of the day is thinking wrt UK defence needs is totally baffling to all of us on these sites I’m sure. Equally certain bar actually someone dropping a bomb or two on UK property that we are sleepwalking into a potential disaster. Let us hope not, as my half full glass of vin rouge is nearly empty!
Thanks for the clarification. I am sure we could accomodate other AFs at Akrotiri if required, but the USN pilots seem happy to use their deployed carrier as a base!
I agree with the concern at our Government’s almost total disinterest in defence, despite defence being the first duty of government. They are far more focussed on the defence of Ukraine, but there is an obvious reason for that.
Some say, especially certain American senior officers and politicians, that our armed forces failed in Basra/Iraq and Afghanistan. That’s harsh but we did not win – and needed US reinforcement in Helmand. We did not have enough troops deployed in either case and they did not initially have the right kit. Can we afford to ‘fail’ a third time in a row?
I think it’s a good sign for the RAF that people are up in arms that air policing in Romania has to be gapped in order to shoot down missiles in Israel. How many other air forces could conduct either of those missions and more importantly how many could conduct both?
Basra was ultimately poorly handled and a failure, I’d dispute that Helmand was too. Sure there was hubris when the army first went in, but not having enough troops isn’t really a failure. USMC deployed troops in the end but I wouldn’t think of that as a failure.
Ironically of course Afghanistan then turned out to be the failure whilst Iraq has been a success.
The question I have again is how many countries could fail in Basra and Helmand? Yanks might view less of us now but most countries could only dream of having the capabilities to have sustained 12k troops for a decade.
There two sides to every story and the story told of the British in Basra is mainly told by senior American officers and those in the media who have repeated their views. Little attention has been paid to the accounts of those who were there.
Brigadier James Bashal, Comd British Troops Basra said to the BBC in 2008: “You try to minimise the risk, but you cannot avoid an operation because you might take casualties. If you get it wrong, the guilt can eat away at your soul.”
The British handed over Basra to the Iraqis at the beginning of August 2007. The transition was a bloodless affair conducted with dignity, despite claims from American commentators that the British withdrawal amounted to surrender.
“We were not bombed out of Basra,” Brig Bashall insists. “We came out when I chose to. We dictated the pace. There was criticism of the UK because, to some people, it looked as if we were handing Basra over to the Mahdi army, but that was definitely not the case. Neither was there any pressure from the US for us to stay longer. Basra is different from Baghdad and General Petraeus [the US commander of coalition forces in Iraq] understands that.”
Our standards of soldiering were exemplary, of particular note was the very skilful redeployment of Basra-based British forces conducted by then-Lt Col Patrick Sanders (now CGS) who was commanding a RIFLES battalion. Sanders negotiated with the Mahdi army prior to this complex operation and that operation was bloodless – the Americans castigated Sanders for negotiating with the enemy rather than constantly engaging him. Critical American senior officers also forget that we were under political remit to handover our zone of occupation to the Iraqi Army asap – we alawys were going to handover Basrah to the Iraqis – it was not ‘running away’.
British forces made mistakes following warfighting the Iraqi army, I won’t deny that, but much was due to under-resourcing.
My concern was the small number of troops deployed to the Southern Sector (well over one quarter of the land area of Iraq) which included Basra – just 4,000 men. We lost a lot of soldiers due to disadvantageous force ratios – much of pur manpower was engaged in Force Protection leaving fewer available for taking the fight to the enemy.
We can do both at the same time. With the intelligence available, and at very short notice, it was quicker and easier to re-deploy operational Typhoons already operating away from home with experienced crew’s and airframes that are already maintenance clear for the coming weeks. Simple as that. We can do these ongoing operations and have Typhoons at Red Flag in Nevada for example.
Robert, how can you say we can do both when we abandoned the Romanian air policing operaton?
Because this strike against Israel came up at very short notice. We had 6 operationally tasked Typhoons sat a little closer to the action with already deployed pilots and engineers. Airframes that didn’t need to be pulled for any engineering servicing or any mods fitted for the operational environment. If we had a bit more notice. Then it is well within the capacity of the Typhoon fleet to deploy another 6 jets and crews.Its about options. And that is the choice they made. Didnt see France deploy any Rafales. Or Spanish or Italian Typhoons deployed at such short notice. Because we have the capacity and logistics to do it. And showcase how flexible and adaptable the RAF can be. But as usual, people just look at it as something negative.
You make your point well. Perhaps we need more Typhoons forward-based at Akrotiri so that we can react to new threats and challenges in the region without having to abandon a NATO mission elsewhere.
Others might say we should have had a carrier in the area – I’m not getting involved in that debate.
I’m guessing while Iran is playing silly buggers, that is what they will do. Officially those 6 jets were to beef up Op Shader. Maybe at the request of the USAF. So it could free up a few Strike Eagles for defence of Israel. Either way, it was a very short notice request. Once its the UKs turn again in Romania, then the Typhoons will be back. This is the advantage of working closely with our allies.
Desperate shortage of fighter jets. Meanwhile the Tranche 1 Typhoons are about to be scrapped prematurely. Ridiculous!
And pilots too!
Seems like absolute nonsense scrapping T1, Spain are keeping theirs flying and it’s not like we won’t have ample stocks of AMRAAM to put on them if they can’t take Meteor.
Mind you the MOD always seems to think they can’t put a missile on anything unless it’s the absolute newest most integrated platform and integration cost £1 billion.
Then in Ukraine some Boffins from DSTL go and stick ASRAMM and Brimestone on a pick up truck or Storm shadow on a 50 year old Mig.
But we can’t possible put meteor on an aircraft built 10 years ago even though no one has ever actually asked the manufacturer for a quotation on it.
The UK desperately needs to bring back RAF reserve squadrons just like the USAF operates.
T1 Typhoon the perfect aircraft for that.
👍
Re your reserves squadrons / Typhoon T1 idea. I’m sure scrapping T1 Typhoons made sense to someone at the time. I also understand the political reluctance to make 2.5% etc budget increases in an election year. But times change and what is required now are strong signals. An announcement such as you suggest or that T1s were being replaced by new Typhoons would signal intent to our Allies and to Putin. Ditto with an order for more frigates for example. We have to signal that we are increasing our defences and will worry about finding the money later.
Not so sure about reserve squadrons. Friendly fire incidents are always US Air national guard, not saying it’s because they are reservists but it’s a noticeable pattern.
Unless these pilots are flying Agressors for Draken Europe as their main job, they won’t be able to keep up necessary skills.
I said very same words on another post some time ago , it didn’t go down well 😞
Proof, not that anyone with any brain cells needs it, that the RAF is critically low on numbers. It can’t meet its commitments without leaving a weakness elsewhere.
Round of applause to our wonderful government and spineless defence chiefs who are too scared to question until years down the line when they leave post 👏
We urgently need more fast jets and that’s before the retirement of the Tranche 1 planes. As the end of Hawk and Typhoon manufacturing draws near, Tempest still some way in the future, it leaves a dangerous gap. This gap makes us less able to deal with any future crisis as we can’t just magic these factories and workforce back in to existence. It will risk going the way of tank manufacture, we lose our sovereign capability. Please please please, if the current or future government do just one thing, beyond sort out recruitment and retention, it is this order more Typhoons!
We have one of the world’s best aircraft carriers, always on station, right next to one of the world’s constant trouble spots- Cyprus Sovereign Base Areas. Giving us a real opportunity to influence world events, without having to fire a shot. Imagine we were able to position 3 or 4 extra Squadrons there, in response to the Iran: Israel situation. Instead we have to take out only available capacity, in the form of just 4 extra jets from their NATO mission. We just need more.
Where are the pilots to fly them, coming from??
We also have another massive airbase in the other side of the ME in Diego Garcia which we never use.
Only the Yanks use it, don’t they?
Yes. There is a RN party but no RAF stuff AFAIK.
Wiki says this:
“Naval Party 1002 (NP 1002) is directly present in the territory and is composed of both Royal Navy and Royal Marine personnel. NP 1002 is responsible for civil administration and enforcement. Its members are tasked with policing and carrying out customs duties. Royal Marines in the territory also reportedly form a security detachment.[3]
That’s them. I forgot their number. 😏 Whether any GCHQ people are there I’m unsure.
Diego Garcia is 2,500 miles away from Iran and Yemen, even further from other countries. Unless we buy bombers or are go to war with Madagascar, India or tiny Indian Ocean islands, then it isn’t much use to the RAF.
No point in ordering more Typhoons, if we do Not have the pilots to fly them!
Can you not smell the coffee?
It takes years to train a new pilot from scratch!
No shortage of applicants.
Doesn’t need to take years.
It takes years because of the RAF approach to doing it with all sorts of postings padding the training pipeline out.
Yes, we also have the option to do an emergency program using foreign allied programs, out a couple of dozen extra pilots through US programs would hardly be a rounding error for them to accommodate.
And thats probably because the RAF are matching pilots to numbers of aircraft and the need to keep the pilots current. If we had more pilots they would have problems keeping them all current .This could be compounded if there is a major upgrade programme ( ie. new Typhoon radar?) taking aircraft off the front line for several months (years?) . Also nobody seems to know what our aims are for the F35 fleet with knock on impact on F35 pilot training.
It also takes years to get new fighter jets. Old pilots could be tempted to stay on, new ones trained, pilots in training speeded up.
It could be done if needed.
The blindness of the current government to defence is extraordinary, but with Cameron back in the cabinet, this is no surprise: The Tories have hollowed out our armed forces while still maintaining the same level of commitments.
Can you imagine 300 Missiles or drones coming towards the UK 😟 our Typhoon pilot’s did a great job over the weekend. But by pulling away these Aircraft shows how strapped we are .GBAD for UK very badly needed , time for Rishi to wake up ⏰ and no less than 3% in Defence pot.
Said that yesterday we’d have no chance. This needs sorted, from training, pilots to actual planes #Shambles
That’s statement makes non sense at all.
These drones were intercepted over allied territory well away from Israel or its GBAD.
If someone other than the Republic of Ireland launch a similar attack on the UK they have to cross every country in NATO with our Airforce and their GBAD shooting them down.
Or do you think the Irish are prepping such an attack and we have no chance of stopping it? If so you might be right.
We should seriously consider reinforcing the coast of wales with missile and gun batteries.
Agree with you regards the East.
In the West, N West, sub launched missiles are a possible problem.
Absolutely 👍
Where would these drones be coming from?
To get to the UK from any hostile country you have to fly over every other country in NATO.
The word Submarine and ships springs to mind Jim 🤔
Would take quite a few subs to launch 300+ airborne threats at one go without being noticed!
Ships would be spotted well before by allies/satellites by time they got in range.
Get notice not the problem , what do we have to stop them that’s the problem . Believe me a lot less then 300 coming towards UK would be very bad indeed 😞
There is good reason why that scenario is also unrealistic. Russia doesn’t have the capability. We have very effective intelligence services. We have a huge amount of NATO between us and them. Submarines don’t just arrive unnoticed and fire missiles without massive political fallout happening first. We and our allies are very good at ASW.
Well unless Norway and Denmark suddenly become archer enemies of the UK, then that scenario isn’t going to happen.
The UK now needs to, finally, take the air defence of the mainland and islands seriously. A layered, all-round, air defence zone is needed to counter ballistic missiles, long-range cruise missiles coming in from the Atlantic/far North, and slow flying drones. The detection range needs to be in the order of 3,000+ miles, and kill zone commencing at 1,000+ miles including upper atmosphere/space. The UK has elements for this, but it needs to be fully integrated and at scale to cope with a mass-attack.
Similar to Israel has with its iron Dome/David’s Sling/Arrow 2 & 3. I would argue that the UK needs to develop its own proprietary (non-hackable) system and include use off directed energy weapons, AI, and quantum radar, as well as flying and ship-based missile warehouses all linked into a command and control system similar to that now deployed in Ukraine.
Just for completeness the UK’s at sea nuclear deterrent needs to be supplemented with with land-based strategic ICBM and bomber aircraft (the latter being dispersed around the world.
Come on uncle Rishi. Where is the plan? We can’t rely on others for security.
Europe is building skyshield, are we in on that?
The real problem and enemy here is main stream media. If they tackled ministers with some of the points made in this forum then attitudes of politicians would change
Sky are too concerned with climate change; BBC being anti white and promoting everything black.If those bombs etc rain down upon us its not something we would not deserve. These idiots and virtual signalling politicians are our worst foe.
Agreed, I’ve made that point about journalists here before.
Have to be fair when it comes to Sky News. They have been covering defence a lot recently, when it comes to spending so on.. I think Deborah Haynes (Sky Correspondent) try’s her best to cover the problems within our defence structure.
She does. I follow her on Twitter.
I watched her with some enthusiasm on Sky News for a few days following the Russian Invasion, until the point she actually stated on air that she wasn’t an expert in Defence matters – I nearly spat my coffee out.
You complain about media being concerned by climate change – you just wait to see how much need we have of our armed forces once climate change really kicks in…
It’s not one or the other, defence or climate. We need to sort both, and if we cant sort climate then I’d argue it’s one of the biggest reasons we need proper investment in defence, now, and why cuts were short sighted in the extreme. We ain’t seen nothing yet.
First of all jet fighter numbers don’t help with the climate. Global warming and cooling is a natural event. I could give many scientific reasons. Between 1940 and 1970 the planet cooled, yet man’s Carbon emissions increased.1609 scientists signed a declaration stating so and that man causing global warming is a myth.We have to adapt to it not change something we cannot.
Yes you are no doubt right the military will have a role to play
A racist AND a climate change denier! What other crack pot conspiracy theories do you promote?
Can we please stop this racist nonsense! The overwhelming majority of faces on the BBC are white! Just because you don’t like seeing black faces does NOT mean that the BBC is anti white nor promoting everything black (what ever the hell that means!)
Another example to those who are watching, that the UK’s defences are weak and feeble.
I think this proves that we do need more fast jet squadrons…8 squadrons of Typhoon and 4 of 35b are needed really.
Unfortunately it’s not just aircraft we’re short of – it’s pilots and maintainers too.
MoD heavily reliant on partnerships with industry to maintain ever more sophisticated equipment.
Nothing wrong with UK industry helping with maintenance.
The bigger problem is pilots and munitions.
T1’s are pretty much all stripped frames now.
Yes absolutely and they do a great job by and large; the consequence though is a marked reduction in highly skilled maintainers and support staff in the armed forces ranks – I assume that must impact deployment numbers?
It’s been noted on here that aircraft deployment numbers are typically 4, 6 or 8. Occasionally up to 10 for US flag exercises.
I think John might have also meant ground crews.
Industry support is ok at our MOBs and Depth Support Hubs but they’re not likely to deploy?
What is the current state of thr T1s. How many are still flyworthy??? Out of the 30
Pretty sure 10 are in reserve at Shawbury (by choice). 4 are in the Falklands and the other 16 will be doing tasks in the UK, QRA, agressor etc. maybe some at OCU, and maintenance.
Uniform personnel are hard to get and retain. Makes sense to use civilian where possible for roles like maintenance.
Maintenance is always done by military and civilian personnel, the former being at the sharp end.
I personally, Despair but after so many years on here saying so, I sadly seem to just get labelled as a troll or someone whose opinions are out of place with the regulars here. War is a game of numbers, we lack anything like the numbers we might actually need…. again…. History teaches us that we learn nothing from history…..
So, assuming 8 Typhoons on station in the UK at any time QRA North Pair 1 and 2, and QRA South Pair 1 and 2. Then we have Flight 1435 in the Falklands (4). Then the 6 moved from Romania.
Is that it ? 18 operational Typhoons ?
Four in Cyprus as well.
As Jim says, plus 4 in Cyprus (903 EAW). Makes 22. So what is the point?
WW3 has not been declared. Qty 22 is quite a lot to be on Operations in ‘peacetime’.
The sqn’s are conducting operational flying training 5 days a week. You should see how many movements take place at RAF Coningsby on any given day. It’s a lot. The fact we have a dedicated Typhoon display pilot shows how much capacity we have in the fleet.
Just what Russia wants to happen and we are playing into there hands Israel has enough equipment and strategies to defend themselves and do have support with / from alot of other countries the UK needs to go backwards and build our army up we will all die when it first starts kicking off this country is an absolute joke and it’s the most expensive to live it that’s why we have so many homeless on our streets families struggling our government are a joke
I am afraid it just demonstrates how thin we are spread on the land, sea and the air in this case.
The Russians are not doing particularly well at blindingly fast invasions of late so I think we can relax a little before panicking.
What it highlights is decade’s of neglect of our armed forces capability .
There was no gap in Romania. Just a giant massive gap in the UK, which hasn’t got a coherent ait defence system.
There was no gap in the Romanian air policing role as some other country backfilled us.
I think it’s completely wrong that we’ll give this air support to Israel but not to Ukraine.
Israel needs that air support far less than Ukraine does. We should be shooting down Russian missiles en route to Ukrainian positions, or at least giving more ground-based air defences to Ukraine.
Israel can handle themselves, but Ukraine can’t keep going on the way things are now.
Ukraine should 100% be the priority.
Its probably more true to say we beefed up Op Shader to backfill the USN so that the USN could re-task to support Israel. Our jets shot down a very small number of drones opportunistically.
How do you think Russia would react to RAF Typhoons operating over Ukraine shooting down Russian Missiles.?.
Personally I think there would be bitching and moaning and more nuclear threats, but not much else.
No Russian troops killed, we’re not shooting down their planes, what exactly do you think Russia will do?
And if we’re not doing that then we (NATO) should at least be giving Ukraine more Patriot missiles so that they can shoot down Russian missiles themselves.
It’s just wrong that we deployed to support Israel, who can take care of themselves, when Ukraine is struggling.
Helping Israel ( a civilised democracy ) while optional won’t have the potential to escalate to WW3,helping Ukraine directly does,it is that simple.
Just to clarify, I’m not against helping Israel. I just feel that Ukraine needs the help far, far more.
And if we can’t provide the direct support, as I said, we should be giving as many air defence missiles e.g. Patriot as humanly possible, so that Ukraine can use them to defend themselves.
Yes that is reasonable but not what you said in your original post, there is a big difference between providing systems like Patriot for the Ukrainians to use compared to flying RAF Typhoons over Ukraine shooting down Russian Missiles.
You want us to engage in direct combat with a strategic nuclear armed country like Russia. That is just insane!!
Can I just point out Romania is a tad closer to Cyprus, depending on when the decision was made I think it would have been far to late to fly from the UK. The big question is whether Romania will be backfilled from the UK or in general terms will there be larger typhoon presence in Cyprus or will they hot foot it back to Romania leaving the status quo
It’s a good point. The Typhoon’s in Romania were both closer and already doing QRA for NATO so it may well be a decision to use them with the knowledge that partner nations could backfill in Eastern Europe rather than a lack of jets available in the UK.
But having said that 107 Typhoons is still doing to be a very hard worked and thinly spread force given the state of the world atm.
That’s been my concern for sometime, has the government budgeted that the typhoons will need replacing sooner as they’re being worked much harder. All defence assets are in the same position, being worked much harder than previously due to lack of numbers
Chickens. Home. Roost.
And cut to the bone.
The assets in Romania are worked up and at high readiness. Thats whthey were sent.
UK units would not be at the same Operational Capability level
Common sense like that, and a little dollop of knowledge doesn’t go down well mate.
Gap…what gap they keep talking about
We simply do not have enough combat aircraft. We really need 300+ and sure they will cost, but invest in defence and the dividend is peace.
Shows we have too few aircraft, too few crew and yet the insanity of defence cuts continue.
Remind me why we are scrapping perfectly good interceptor aircraft / tranche 1 typhoon without replacing them with the newest best possible version?
Because we are spending £2.34Bn. Yes, billion, upgrading the T2/3 fleet. And we are buying F35 and investing in the long-term with Tempest. And T1 is very expensive to operate and maintain compared to the return in capability. Plus, lots of the hardware is obsolete and no longer supported. That’s why. And new Typhoons are still very expensive to purchase. We don’t have the budget to do it all. And if a pot of money was made available for more fast jets, the RAF would but more F35’s, not T4 Typhoon.
Could you please explain why the RAF would buy more 35Bs’ rather than T4 Typhoon?
Survivability. It’s a 5th gen all aspect stealth fighter. The world’s most advanced radar and avionics. The most networked fighter available. It provides 1st night of war capability, when Typhoons would be on the ground. It has air dominace capability a generation ahead of F22 in many aspects. Plus it can land on a carrier. Don’t get me wrong. Typhoon is a superb aircraft. But the 5th gen capability the F35 provides, and the enormous potential this platform has, makes it a no brainer. The RAFs first hand experience of F35 capability, also makes it a no brainer.
Do you work for Loc…….d?!?
No, I work for RWE, a German energy company. I did serve in the Fleet Air Arm.