The United Kingdom and Türkiye have taken a significant step toward a multi-billion-pound export deal for Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets, following the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) by Defence Secretary John Healey and Turkish Defence Minister Yaşar Güler at the International Defence Industry Fair in Istanbul.
The agreement sets the stage for what would be the first Typhoon export order secured by the UK since 2017. According to the Ministry of Defence, the deal would sustain up to 20,000 UK jobs linked to the Typhoon programme and contribute to NATO’s collective defence posture.
Prime Minister Keir Starmer said: “The UK’s production of Typhoon fighter jets is an engine for economic growth – supporting the lives and livelihoods of thousands of British people right across the UK. Signing a multi-billion export deal with Türkiye will sustain and protect 20,000 UK jobs for future years to come.”
The Defence Secretary described the signing as a key delivery step under the government’s Strategic Defence Review, which identified defence exports as a central pillar of national security and economic policy. “Today’s agreement is a big step towards Türkiye buying UK Typhoon fighter jets,” John Healey said. “It shows this government’s determination to secure new defence deals, building on our relationships abroad to deliver for British working people.”
As part of the planned export deal, around 37 percent of each Typhoon aircraft would be manufactured in the UK. BAE Systems would lead final production at its Warton facility, supported by components such as radars from Edinburgh and engines from Bristol.
Charles Woodburn, Chief Executive of BAE Systems, said: “This Memorandum of Understanding underscores the importance of long-standing defence cooperation through NATO and the critical role Typhoon plays in security and defence in Europe and the Middle East.”
The agreement builds on existing defence-industrial ties between the UK and Türkiye. It also marks a new operational focus for the Ministry of Defence, which will assume responsibility for defence exports from 31 July 2025.
UK defence exports were valued at £14.5 billion over the most recent 12-month period, say the UK Government in a news update on this topic. The MoU with Türkiye is expected to strengthen both national defence capabilities and bilateral industrial cooperation, they added.
There was an excellent article about this in The Guardian of all places a week ago entitled “‘There’s a bit of a queue forming’: how UK firms are enticing buyers for the next generation of fighter jets”. BAE certainly seem very confident of big orders to Turkey, SA and Qatar
I saw that too.
A surprisingly good article for the usually anti arms industry Guardian.
The key to getting Tempest on budget is to keep moving fast. A fast timeline allows less time for The Good Ideas Club to fiddle with the design or for Treasury to try to push it to the right.
Reeves has been pushed into a terrible spot by her party’s anti wealth policies and she is harvesting the fallout from that. I fear defence uplifts and fudging are easy targets.
Sorry but Reeves has been pushed into a corner? the lady is a clown and way out of her depth. The Treasury saw her coming and had her on the back foot from day one with the cutting of the WFA.
I agree about the Guardian article it was good and the economic mess that is going to get worse with the Carry On team in charge will have an impact on any proposed increase in defence spending.
Don’t get me wrong it is a clown show that makes the Conservatives look competent and they were not great…..
For a brief moment I thought that Starmer was actually going to reform welfare and I have to say that would have been a very large tick. Sadly he has all the staying power of a cheap deckchair – folds at the slightest push.
I don’t like Reeve’s instinctively. However, Reeves and Starmer are just about holding in check the left of the party who are intent on student politics of soaking the ‘rich’. As we have seen, do far, that once you have a certain level of wealth and a marketable skill plane tickets are easy to buy to places that want you. It is delusional to think that people will not do this to leave behind a wealth tax. 2% a year doesn’t sound like much but if you have a house that is worth £1.5m [not that unlikely] and you are asked to part with £30,000 a year just for owning it that is ridiculous and I would leave the country. Most don’t have a spare £30k/pa to support socialist nirvana. The other issue is that it will crash the housing market with people leaving the country.
Given the child level logic that Labour are using they won’t be able to get their head round that. As they could not understand that ending non Dom would cause a massive exit of the wealthy – it already has and it has crashed investment in start ups. Hunt is partly to blame for stating that idiocy rolling.
London was frighteningly quiet when I went for a walk around Chelsea and Belgravia yesterday. It is not a good sign at all.
They’ll be happy once the UK is a nation of peasants on benefits.
Pure class warfare.
The sooner Labour fragments and the left go form their own party the better.
This is why having Labour in always scares me.
I mean an economy that is growing, business confidence at a long term high, significant increase in inward investment over the last year. Highest growth in the g7 (real data rather than the made up version of the last government) That’s the type of clown I can get behind.
Exactly. I didn’t vote Labour at the last GE, but even I can see that the kicking they’re getting over the economy is, as it usually is, inspired by tabloid garbage, grifters on the right, and a big dose of Tufton ****-stirring.
All gleefully sucked up by the ignorant.
Ooooh Ian Mc! The reality is that it is inspired by economic data rather than so called Tufton ****-stirring.
I didn’t vote Tory but we can all use stats and unemployment is up and job vacancies down, which of course would have nothing to do with the first Labour budget? NI increases perhaps?
The U.K. is expected to slip down the G7 league table as the economy slows and the tax take is likely to exceed the post war high (1948) within the next couple of years as a result of further tax rises.
I couldn’t care less about right or left but surely you can see the direction of travel is no better than under the previous incumbents, however, much most sane want it to be otherwise.
@Steve
” Highest growth in the g7 (real data rather than the made up version of the last government”?????
Umhhh! Please do elaborate. I’m really interested in this fake data and how the OECD, IMF and World Bank were conned by the Tories.
It would be nieve to think labour are doing all out great, but the data indicates over the last year things are improving.
Unemployment is marginally up, but its by 0.1% and was raising since q3 2022, so has nothing to do with NI changes.
My issue is people stating reeves is doing a bad job, she is doing a mixed job at worse. Compare that to the period in the last government and all the data was getting worse.
In real terms the country has been stagnated for the last decade or so, but at least there are now some postiive data, especialyl around business confidence and inwards investment which will create jobs and drive the econony, assuming they remain high.
time will tell, but to me there is a lot of positives, not least the increase in defence expenditure.
Phew that’s a relief!there’s me thinking we might run out of money to keep giving away👍
@Steve I am afraid I can’t share your confidence, however, much I wish we were heading in a positive direction. The one prediction I will make is that if the next budget substantially increases taxes for the majority of working people then Labour are toast at the next election.
Oh Steve! I guess all the employment data for the UK published by the ONS, The Commons Library and Statista, not to mention The Guardian (yes The Guardian), are also made up, fake Tory data. Those Tories are geniuses. Hat’s off to them.
@mark have you actually looked at the data from the ONS on employment? I checked it before posting.
@Steve. Yes I did Steve. I’ll paste excerpts from the latest ONS bulletin for July 2025.
1.Estimates for payrolled employees in the UK fell by 135,000 (0.4%) between May 2024 and May 2025, and by 25,000 (0.1%) between April and May 2025.
2.When looking at March to May 2025, the period comparable with our Labour Force Survey (LFS) estimates, payrolled employees fell by 81,000 (0.3%) over the year, and by 68,000 (0.2%) over the quarter.
3.The early estimate of payrolled employees for June 2025 decreased by 178,000 (0.6%) on the year, and by 41,000 (0.1%) on the month, to 30.3 million.
4.The UK unemployment rate for people aged 16 years and over was estimated at 4.7% in March to May 2025. This is above estimates of a year ago, and up in the latest quarter.
***up from 4.3% a year ago***
5.The UK Claimant Count for June 2025 increased on the month and the year, to 1.743 million.
While non of the above is disastrous, and considerably better than here in the EU, don’t pretend things are getting better. Your Tory government was bad; your Labour one worse. Same old story over here but worse.
@Steve.
And just in case I’m accused of being a Tory Troll, here’s and excerpt from The Guardian dated 17th July:
“Anaemic economic growth, rising inflation, and a worsening outlook in the jobs market. If the inheritance from the Conservatives had been bad, the situation a year in to the new Labour government does not look much better.
The latest figures show unemployment nudged up to 4.7% in May, hitting the highest level in four years, while wage growth slowed for a third consecutive month, and employers cut back on hiring.
Given the cocktail of economic concerns facing Britain, a slowdown in the labour market is hardly surprising. Employers are facing higher costs from inflation, tax rises and elevated interest rates; squeezed consumers are not rushing to spend, and Donald Trump’s trade wars are clouding the outlook.”
Which planet are you on Steve….Whatever your smoking you need to stop…This is not a right wing conspiracy theory that talks down the economy. The UK is up a certain creek without a paddle.
WFA is a joke. Pensioners on the whole are holding a great deal of wealth, and it was never means tested as it should have been. Just because someone is old – doesn’t mean they’re vulnerable, nor does it mean they’re not in a position to pay for their own fuel.
Change was required. The same can be said for PIP, which pays so well that anyone who gets it celebrates the letter in the post – because they know they’ll never need to work again. The country has become the biggest push-over around.
So much so that we have parties like Reform on the rise. A sorry, sorry state of affairs.
But the moment someone tries to do anything about it, they’re town down from every angle. Because WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF OUR OLD RICH PEOPLE, and “SAVE THE WORK-SHY GROWN ADULTS”.
Yikes, I’m beginning to sound far right. Look what you’ve done.
“The same can be said for PIP, which pays so well that anyone who gets it celebrates the letter in the post- because they know they will never need to work again”.
Please can you tell us what you think PIP pays, how it is awarded and what the actual claims process and eligability criteria are ?
I know but I’m just keen to see you enlighten us to your own actual knowledge.
CAPS LOCKS not really required.
Don’t forget out unwelcome guests from across the channel….and there the ones we know about….How many super-injunctions are lurking in a ministers red box to prevent us knowing the truth about the risks and massive costs….
You do realise pip is paid for people with actual disability and is essentially a payment to support their care needs.. as such it’s an in work allowance… hint many people on pip work for a living and the pip pays for things like wheelchairs mobility aids, support etc. you cannot actually live of pip as it’s between 29 and 187 pounds a week depending on your level of disability and needs.. hint to get 187 pounds a week your talking about have 2 legs and an arm blown off or being profoundly autistic and not really able to communicate and navigate the world.
@ Andrew Thorne, That way leads to madness.. but unfortunately our government and others have literally feed an environment in which the general public now see conspiracy theories everywhere.. not because they have all become tin foil hat warriors.. but because every day they see it on their TVs cover up after cover up.. with big business and government will to go to the ends of the earth to cover a scandal or sell something dangerous to the public.. it started with the tobacco industry, moved onto big pharmaceutical companies ( oxy and SSRI ) governments with blood! Post offices, Epstein files full of powerful sex trafficking elites… no wonder nobody believes anything anyone says anymore.
The main reason Reeves is in a corner is that she is attempting to engineer a complete overhaul of a society and an economy which was fashioned by Thatcherism i.e. consumer lead and based on incentives for short term financial profit taking, ‘rent seeking’ behaviours and unearned income rather than manufacturing and re-investment of profits in long term wealth creating skills and assets. This transition is painful and many existing ‘wealth creators’ and traditional labour and Tory adherents don’t buy into it. Rebelling labour MPs fail to understand the seriousness of the situation which requires the abandonment of raw socialist policies (PIP, winter fuel) for policies rooted in equity and pragmatism, some of which do require reductions in our generous benefits system. Meanwhile the earlier political and economic scorched earth ideologies ( Blair included) have combined with the anal character of the British cultural establishment to gift the labour govt with a great deal of wreckage and a demoralised citizenship: the Post Office, Grenfell, the haemophilia blood scandal, plus generational underinvestment in basic infrastructure like water, roads, railways, electrical power and distribution, defence, the NHS. And since it doesn’t rain but that it pours wars and famine, ably facilitated by arsenists Putin and the Iranian Mullahs have set the world alight sending us millions of refugees. It’s a good job Reeves is a chess champion. She will need some good moves to win this game. It’s no accident no-one wants the job of Archbishop of Canterbury – the country needs a spiritual transplant.
Excellent news. Now cancel the F 35 and buy another 20/25 Typhoons for the RAF. Role on Tempest.
50
Would be good..
Exactly. Put your money where your mouth is HMG.
Unlikely but true.
So you want to put out of work the BAe workers who build 15% of EVERY F-35 at huge profit to the UK and destroy the skills needed to build Tempest? Are you French?
Unsure how they’d be out of work? There are hundreds of orders still being completed.
The F-35A order would be the one getting the boot as it’s needless and a waste of money, to carry a warhead we have zero autonomy over.
Umh….who builds the Typhoon? The Chinese?
In the age of advanced AA defences, the F-35 is a much-needed asset
Typhoon is gen 4.5, and is not stealthy
In a near-peer battle space, the F-35 would best be used to designate targets for the Typhoons.
Neither is the F35 with external kit and as things are it has very little to tuck into it’s tum..!
F-35 is stealthier even with external kit.
But in total stealth mode, it would be best used to designate targets for other aircraft.
Typhoon is more stealthy than you might think.
It’s RCS has been progressively minimised.
LM has recently stated that TR-3 software has reached a stable, combat capable configuration, and is awaiting USAF testing of a single combat capability and thence JPO sign-off. Subsequently, the first, semi-plausible, roadmap and schedule for Block 4 implementation can be generated. Please refrain from all questions re the litany of other program issues.
Hmmm…perhaps the RAF should purchase a relatively inexpensive insurance policy re potential delays in GCAP/Tempest development timeline, by acquiring an additional tranche of Typhoons. RAF would probably receive most favorable terms by combining the order w/ another while production line is hot. USAF is wisely adopting same philosophy w/ increased orders of F-15EX, and upgrading the majority of the F-22 fleet. Perhaps not sixth gen. a/c, but not an order for Sopwith Camels either.
F35 was purchased by UK at a time where ties with USA where ironclad. The results of the trade war shows some growing distance over the Océan.
The F35 is still far from TR4 and has had to renounce to important features in connectivity due to limited US expertise in that field. The gap of skills between Europe and USA is still widening in favor of Europe.
The benefit of stealth is vanishng due to radar improvement and the limited internal payload of the plane.
The Ukraine war shows that mass matter. The horendous cost per flight hour of a the F35 does not cope with high number of flying jets.
“Typhoon is gen 4.5 and is not stealthy”.
Ermm, how can I put this ?
Hmmm…perhaps the RAF should purchase a relatively inexpensive insurance policy re potential delays in GCAP/Tempest development timeline, by acquiring an additional tranche of Typhoons. RAF would probably receive most favorable terms by combining the order w/ another while production line is hot. USAF is wisely adopting same philosophy w/ increased orders of F-15EX, and upgrading the majority of the F-22 fleet. Perhaps not sixth gen. a/c, but not an order for Sopwith Camels either.a1
The thing is when Typhoon goes up against F35 in A2A training excersises what would you say the outcome is.?.
Given that the only place there’s a sniff of a chance of that being replicated is over the Aegean, and pretty unlikely too, it really doesn’t matter to us. We will be attacking/defending with a mix of F-35s and Typhoons for another 20 years, whichever is bought next.
Wrong – ourselves, and Italy operate both Typhoon and F35, in training the outcomes are well known and have been for some time. Germany will be able to find out too when their F35’s are delivered.
Agreed, ditch the F35A. F35B could end up being orphaned. Typhoon will integrate with UK weapons now. The F35A must be the most expensive trainer around.
Great aircraft. Great work. Great deal. Kudos all round 👏
Germany certainly delayed the process and introduced uncertainty into the deal, but another step closer — great news!
Seems like an excellent way of leading into future sales of Tempest, just as unexpected sales of earlier jets like Lightning to Saudi Arabia led into massive sales of Tornados and Eurofighters later. May also re ignite uk input into Turkey’s own 5th Gen fighter which has taken an in, out, shake it all about journey through its development as far as RR and Bae are concerned.
Trump is doing wonders for European arms suppliers even if it has given a shorter term boost to their US companies too. But one sees the old business routine with him in operation, boost immediate sales and profits (usually for him and associates) at the direct cost of future declines because it makes him look good in headline news and the latter issues down the line is someone else’s problem, that will also ironically make him look at least superficially good in retrospect… to the unsophisticated or myth spreaders anyway.
Once you have created a competitor, it is too late to cry. Think of South Korea…
Why export advance warponery to a Muslim Brotherhood ruler? It will eventually become very hostile to Israel, and may attack it?
Why would Turkey, a NATO member, attack Israel?
Because Israel are murdering cnuts.
One can read that in two ways.
Yes they’re killing the cnuts, not murdering the cnuts. It’s war! Did the British and Americans murder the cnuts in Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo or Nagasaki, or were they casualties of war.
You can’t viciously and barbarically attack a neighbouring country and expect that there would not be serious and tragic consequences for your people, especially when you refuse to surrender; likewise Berlin 1945.
If Russia were to strike London with dozens of missiles, killing thousands of Cockneys, what would you have Britain do? Write a strongly worded letter of protest! Of course you’d declare war and retaliate in spades. That’s what would be expected. But only because you are not a Jewish state. For them the rules are different simply because they are Jews. They just have to suck it up and take like they did in Ravensbruck, Dachau, Sachsenhaussen, Flossenberg, Buchanwald, Breendonck, Mauthausen, Belzec, Auschwitz, Birkenau, Gross-Rosen, Majdanek, Plaszow, Pustkow, and Treblinka; just to name a fraction.
Like many others today, and I presume you as well, the people who ran these places were also advocates of “From the Rivers to the Sea”. Six million dead; the state of Israel will never allow this to happen again. They have the nukes and are prepared to use them; just as you are.
They just have to suck it up and take **IT** like they did in Ravensbruck…
NO EDIT FEATURE.
They just have to suck it up and take **IT** like they did in Ravensbruck…
From the River** to……
NO EDIT FEATURE.
Stop insulting British heros who fought a Nazi empire! Stop comparing their memory to war criminal Nethanyahu! Something too often pro Israel supporters and Israeli do too these days!
Oh James! I haven’t insulted anyone, not the British nor the Americans, unless you regard pointing out your hypocrisy as an insult. In that case I’m guilty as charged.
BTW I had grand and great grand uncles who served in the British Army in both World Wars. One of them is buried in Greece. I am very proud of them. Unlike some here, I’m sure they weren’t hypocrites.
Ahh …Poor little Hamas, they had no Kevlar available,
so they had to use Gaza’s civilians as shields instead.
I do not trust Erdogan the Ottoman, he has turned Turkey away from secular democracy towards an autocracy that is based on his religious dogma.
There are elements in every country that are hostile to Israel.
Including this one.
“Where there is religeon, there is hate”.
….. and where there is pigeon, there is poo!
yes shameful and blind to history or current events just to make a pitance
Not only is the dictator cosy with the Muslim Brotherhood, but Turkey frequently threatens Greece’s territorial imtegrity, Turkey still occupies part fo Cyprus and blackmails Europe with illegal migrants.
All this when the RAF should be getting more Typhoons instead of a handful of stealth fighter to drop US owned gravity nuclear bombs and ofc cannot be refuelled by Voyager fleet.
last point. how long until Turkey retro engineers the kit for its own local industry? (ie engines and meteor missile)
cognitive dissonance
Turkey is a Muslim country unashamedly! So what ? 2 billion Muslims exist on this planet! You live like medieval times as your name suggests 😅😂 Islamophobia motivation can’t be even hidden.
Oh dear, dear James! The pot calling the kettle black.
An Antisemite calling someone Islamaphobic. That’s hilarious!
🤣🤣🤣
Let’s be clear, Islam is not a race, an ethnicity, a gender, a disability or a sexuality. Islam is a belief system, just like Catholicism, Anglicanism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Existentialism, Stoicism, Wokeism or Communism. It is not wrong, evil or in anyway phobic to simply disagree or criticise such a belief system, or it’s adherents, just as it is with Communism or Wokeism. No one should have their head cut off by a Jihadi John for doing so.
I also suspect that you are of the left wing ilk that believe that the people, including the victims, who called for an inquiry into the Pakistani, Muslim, paedophile rape gangs are Islamaphobic racists.
Go on James, admit it !😁
FYI James! I would fully support any sale of military equipment of any description to Turkey, if it was for the benefit of UK and defence of Europe.
There are lots of friendly, civilised Muslim countries such as nearby Turkey, and far away Malaysia and Indonesia. It’s just all the sh..holes in between them that is the problem.
Pathetic textual diarrhoea as usual from Mark, the ignorant cnut 🐷
You’re almost as retarded as Daniella the Italian ladyboy in here 🤡🤣
@Pleiades
Ah, is that you James?
Do you feel better now for excreting all that vitriolic flatulence? You must do as you’re so full of it.
FYI Muslim Brotherhood spawned Hamas and is an islamist movement proscribed by many muslim majority countries
get a clue before spouting nonesense
PS have you driven through a fence lately? you must be a supporter of Palestenian Action, etc…
Better they have pitchers then from Russia or China. It makes them dependent on us and gives us leverage in need be (spares, maintenance, consultancy, replacements, training, upgrades etc).
Pitchers? Should say ‘our aircraft’, what the heck happened there
Turkey is buying this to bridge a gap until it’s 5th Gen Kaan fighter jet is ready in the next few years. They have a huge defence industry which can reproduce any parts it needs incase sanctioned etc So I think like you said this is a huge win for the UK! Besides this as sovereign country the UK is not the US it has it’s own interest like France that it must look out for. Israel does nothing for the UK nor should we walk away on their behalf. This brings more British jobs and billions into the economy
Does that come with or without the glider winch to assist takeoff?
It’s isn’t advanced, It’s 30 years old and obsolete.
Compared to Mad Vlad’s scrap heap airforce?
Typhoon as a fighter and bomb truck is very good as part of a NATO operation along side F35.
It is a superb blend of techs.
Who cares about Israel? We owe Israel Nothing that genocidal country! Nor do most Britons care about Israel! The era of supporting that genocidal regime is over ! During the height of the pandemic Turkey donated shipments after shipments of medical supplies to the UK while Israel refused to share anything! You think we forgot that ??
France and Germany blocked the sale of PPE to the UK and the rest of Europe. The USA blocked the sale of all vaccine related materials to all third countries. You seem to have forgotten that but then again the French, Germans and Americans have not committed the sin of being Jewish. More hypocrisy!
Maybe you should take a long, hard, honest look at yourself in the mirror. If you are really truthfully honest with yourself, you’ll admit the reflection is that of a bigot.
Maybe you should take a long, hard, honest look at yourself in the mirror. If you are really truthfully honest with yourself, you’ll admit the reflection is that of a bigot.
Oh the irony. Obviously lost on a cretin like you Mark 🤡😂
Is that you James?
I don’t think you know what the word irony means. Go back to school. You’re showing us who the real cretin is.
Israel has had very good relations with Turkey over the years, but since Erdogan became President those relations have cooled somewhat. Israel now has a very good relationship with Greece, but going to blows against Turkey is very unlikely in the present climate. Strangely enough they have both come into conflict with a common enemy.
Whilst this is of course great news, the UK really needs to purchase a minimum of 36 T5 Typhoons ASAP (to replace the retired T1s), potentially as many as 72 if we want to boost numbers (which we need to do).
It’s not that long ago (1990) when we had around 600 fast jets. We’ve never recovered from retiring all the Tornado GRs, Jaguars etc etc
We simply have no money to buy them, and not enough Pilots to fly them, so pretty pointless ATM.
Never going to happen. 16 would suffice. 32 would excellent. But any more nope.
See. Nothing to worry about….🙂
“Prime Minister Keir Starmer said: “The UK’s production of Typhoon fighter jets is an engine for economic growth – supporting the lives and livelihoods of thousands of British people right across the UK. Signing a multi-billion export deal with Türkiye will sustain and protect 20,000 UK jobs for future years to come.”
So would ordering more for the RAF….but for some strange reason you cannot bring yourself to do that can you.
The thing is Daniele, the days of empire which gave us a captive export market for the high volume sales which lower unit costs are long gone. I have always admired the way the French made a France first buying policy work for their armed forces. Rafale with French weapons has been an export success. But we also know that when they enter into a ‘partnership’ it often means French dominance and that, for example, NH90 and Eurocopter Tiger are probably not as good as their UK or US equivalents. I don’t have a problem with this holistic UK govt strategy: find a way to make a buy British policy work by getting the export orders as part and parcel of procurement for the UK. I have no doubt that a huge amount of patient diplomatic work with Germany, Türkiye, the US, and probably Spain ( I expect those tranche 2 Typhoons figure in this deal somehow) and the EU has gone into getting this order. Orders from SA and Qatar look more likely now, as does an increase in RAF fast jet numbers. Treat yourself to a dram – it’s a good day 🙂
Hi Paul.
What increase in fast jet numbers?
Are we waiting for the autumn equipment plan like we were for the SDR? 🙃
I’ll believe it when I see the orders….pushed down the queue so they don’t need to be paid for until the next parliament……
I don’t believe it for one minute, SB.
This government have no interest in defence.
The strange reason being a few billion quid….
It’s financially better to do an export order and invest in Tempest.
So finances and industry ahead of military need.
Again.
And when Tempest is here, there will still be too few, the RAF will still be too small, and nothing will have changed.
And posters will be saying exactly the same.
And round the wheel turns. Always about tomorrow.
I support Tempest. But it is costing 12 billion just to develop, never mind buy.
Sooner or later HMG has to start buying for today, not a future that never arrives or is cut or watered down by rhe next government.
Jam tomorrow is always the mantra Daniele. 😏
To be fair it seem the RAF are a bit F35A obsessed. I suspect if the RAF had asked for Typhoons they may have got them.
That is the long held view.
But is it actually true? Or an assumption following on from the inter service rivalry.
Where is it stated by RAF officers that they want F35A above anything else?
The A order was seen as primarily political.
To be honest I’m not sure the Labour government are so interested in defence to be overly political about it.. to my mind someone pushing for the A order and in reality the only executive organisation that would even bother pushing for an A order would be the RAf. If it had come out as a recommendation in the defence review or the US was pushing for an A order I could see it being politically pushed through.. but to my mind this smells like the RAF pushing the idea to the treasury around saving some in year money.
There was a bit of an accidental leak in March 2025, that showed the RAF wanted and was having F35s.. apparently a BAE employee wrote to his MP about the potential loss of jobs if typhoon was not ordered.. this then went to the MOD who sent it the the RAF..it seem the senior RAF officer asked to respond got a bit over excited and wrote a comprehensive response essentially saying the typhoon was dead and the RAFs future was fifth generation and they had already decided that not only were they purchasing more F35Bs but they were also moving to f35As.. is a fascinating letter that’s been analysed and published…
“How the letter with the assertions about the F-35 and Typhoon ending up getting released and then passed to The Times is still a mystery. One senior Ministry of Defence source suggested the Unite trade union’s “forceful lobbying campaign” in favour of Typhoon was at play, which prompted pro-F-35 factions in the RAF to come out fighting in response.
But Defence Eye thinks there are some big hints in the language used in the piece, especially those attributed to “defence sources”. They have a familiar ring to Defence Eye – resembling language used by several RAF senior officers at conferences and briefings of late. Quite abrupt talk of “expensive Typhoons”, “less capable Typhoon” and the like, contrasted with “more capable F-35As”.
Personally I’d like to see F35B and Typhoon, our own product, ordered before A.
But considering the RAF have had Harrier, Jaguar and Tornado GR4 pulled away from them with no real replacement I don’t blame them.
Are Typhoons more expensive than the F35A then ? and more capable at what exactly? Did they elaborate ,once they were challenged of course.
I’d love to see the pro’s & cons vs. the expenditure.
As far as I’m concerned, it stemmed from some RAF wind commander getting a bit upset that the Navy had newer fixed wing aircraft.
This is part of the reason for the A order from what I can gather. Willy waving about the Air Force being nuclear capable like the Navy, even if the warhead’s use is controlled completely by the US.
Once the Tempest flying demo makes its debut, the F-35 obsession within the RAF will miraculously disappear.
I’d say Typhoons were nominally more expensive to buy, but far cheaper to run than F-35A. However, they are cheaper to buy and run than the B. We don’t know how much Tranche 5 Typhoons would cost, but the guesswork is £80-90m. F-35s are generally more capable in stealth and sensor fusion. Typhoons are better in weapons carriage and delivery. I have no idea how the new radars and sensors on both platforms will compare. The old F-35 radar is better than the one on the Typhoon, but if we ordered more of either plane we should get the new stuff.
At the moment a combination of both F-35s and Typhoons looks to be the sweet spot, but the advantages of the F-35A over the B seem to boil down to price. The range is a pros and cons thing, with carriers and Voyagers perhaps giving F-35B the edge in some places, while the longer unrefuelled range and plentiful NATO tanker support might give it to the As in others. The payload weight difference is almost irrelevant at the moment, although when the larger bomb bay on the A gets an extended rack, the A might get a real advantage in carring more bombs than the B.
Even ignoring the greater hourly operational costs, the biggest issue is the number of F-35s non-operational, particularly F-35Bs. Is an F-35A really cheaper to buy if you pay for 10 and get 3 working rather than pay 15% more for T5 Typhoons and have 7 working? Defence Eye claims we are down at 20% availability for the F-35Bs, but I’m not sure that can be right. On top of that if we push ahead with the A we’ll have the greater maintenance and infrastructure costs associated with a third operational fast jet platform.
If I had money right now for RAF jets, I’d go for 24 Typhoons and that would be it for new 4th gen, assuming Tempest is built to time (or thereabouts). So a decade of Typhoon upgrades and F-35s to follow.
The Typhoon upgrade program is costing a fortune compared to new manufactured units.
So I get why RAF are sore about that coming out of their budgets.
But if the new radar and glass cockpit hadn’t been developed it wouldn’t have fed into Tempest.
This reply is aimed at Grizzler.
The latest figures I have seen are: F35B 130m; F35A 80m, Typhoon 125m. Just over 15% of The F35B price is spent here. Just under 15% of the F35A price is spent here. For British assembled Typhoons somewhere between 35-40% is spent here.
Thanks. I was not aware of that story.
Jon – you are saying the ‘A’ adds to the maintenance burden with increased costs -, that is very unlikely. The ‘B’ is significantly more Complex, is more costly to maintain and has less availability.
My take is that the carrier borne F-35B numbers are being capped and the budget is being redirected towards RAF planes to strengthen our European NATO contribution. Hence F-35As are the priority platform with updating of Typhoon but probably no increase in numbers. I think we will buy the Spanish Tranche 2s and upgrade them.
@Paul T. I was talking about the overhead of having another plane rather than the relative difference in maintaining the two types. If you only have F-35As it’ll be easier to manintain than only having F-35Bs. Having both is more complex and more expensive than either alone, especially given the small numbers. If we are lucky we can prevail on the Americans at Lakenheath to help out maintaining our NATO nuclear-assigned F-35As, as that’s a US led programme. If we have more As than thay, we’ll definitely have to do it all ourselves.
It’s a useful order that will keep the production line open. From memory though, it’s only 20 new Typhoons, the other 20 are our retired F2s (aka the tranche 1 ones), No doubt the latter are going at the MOD’s usual knockdown, bargain-basement price.
Have to hope Turkiye goes on to order a second tranche, while the Khan is still at early development stage.
Of course we should be replacing the 30 F2s withdrawn prematurely from service with at least 30 of the latest Tranche 5 version with its ECRS radar. I’m sure the RAF would love to but alas there is no money in the fast jet budget for more Typhoons.
The FJCA budget is only enough to buy 6-7 new aircraft a year.
It has all been bagged for F-35bs for the… RN’s carrier, for 5 or 6 years now and for the next 4 or 5. So no new Typhoons on the horizon
Whether it is strategically wise to allocate 34% of our very limited air power to sail off on our one operational carrier is another matter – one for future historians no doubt..
You may be right that only 34% is nowhere near enough at sea but its about the same ratio the US has.
What is 34% of bugger all ? 🤔👀😁
errrrrr leave that one with me. I think I know it , but I just need to find my calculator to verify.
bug
Hopefully, the deal the MOD does for the sale of the 20 Tranche 1s and 20 new to Türkiye is structured in such a way that we can afford the 20 or so Tranche 2s that are up for sale by Spain. Accountants have their uses. 🙂
Why are Spain buying new Eurofighters while selling Tranche 2? Why should we be doing the opposite?
Because we are boracic lint.
I think it’s after first-hand operational experience with F35, of any variant is why the RAF would want more F35s over Typhoon. That all aspect stealth, sensor fusion and an insanely capable radar give commanders plenty of options. As well as the first night of war capability. Along with the ease of interoperability with other nations F35s. They are all using the same tactics, all learning from each other. F35 operations really are another world compared to other fast jets. The ability to share targeting data to a drone, a warship, an Army commander, a Wildcat, and other fast jets makes them force multipliers. It’s another level of how we can fight the air war.
There are some interesting videos about the air support for operation Midnight Hammer over Iran.
Altogether, a fleet of 125 US aircraft was involved.
The F-35s provided targeting for F16s + F18(SEAD)
Some AA platforms/radars got taken out, it is estimated that around 35 HARM missiles were fired.
Some F18 carried ECM jamming pods
No Iranian AA missiles were fired, no Iranian fighter jets got airborne.
Amazing sensors and networking for sure.
Not so sure about the current weapons load out on F35 being all defeating?
Whereas Typhoon has the weapons and RAF has stockpiles etc.
I’m not anti F35 but this is an effective gapping of capability until RAF gets a full weapons loadout.
HI SB,
I don’t see the weapons integration program for the F-35 picking up anytime soon even if LM have finally sorted out the Tranche 3 software upgrade as mentioned above because of the sign off process, etc.. So the capability gapping you refer to is likely to continue for sometime yet I think.
I have previously suggested that we bite the bullet and push autonomous vehicles (AV) as the weapons carriers and use the F-35’s we have as airborne command and control platforms, given their apparently awesome situational awareness they would be well suited to the role. If we deployed a high low mix of AV’s we might actually end up with very capable air forces that actually don’t cost the earth and that we can build at scale ourselves if pushed into a corner. The one big caveat is the integration between F-35 and drone as we would need to exploit the F-35 output with the absolute minimum of interference with the F-35 software, preferably none at all if possible so the burden would fall on the drone software.
In effect, the F-35 becomes more of a AWACS type of asset, one that is capable of fighting its way out of a corner but otherwise sending the drones in to the high threat areas. There is a case for forward deploying the C2 assets closer to the engagement area so the stealthy F-35 with great situational awareness is ready made for the role. My reading of the situation is that NATO allies have seen the situational awareness capabilities of the F-35 and bought it with their fingers crossed that weapons will come along in time. I think they will be disappointed and that will open the doors to the wide spread exploitation of drones. The RN’s recent push in this direction might just turn out to be the right way to go, although they need to get production ramped up across a wider range of capabilities…
In the meantime I think more Typhoons would be the way to go – they can at least shoot at stuff with stand off weapons and Typhoon / F-35 mix would allow experience in high low mix operations to be developed and understood which could feed into the development of a high low mix of drones. UK F-35 payloads are short to medium range only and pretty limited in the target set as well (unless the aeroplane gets in real close) so we need the Typhoons and their payloads.
If the RAF really needs F-35A then buy 24x and look at it as a C2 asset with attitude and team them with Typhoons. Tempest and drones would then replace both in time.
Cheers CR
“we would need to exploit the F-35 output with the absolute minimum of interference with the F-35 software, preferably none at all if possible so the burden would fall on the drone software. In effect, the F-35 becomes more of a AWACS type of asset, one that is capable of fighting its way out of a corner but otherwise sending the drones in to the high threat areas. There is a case for forward deploying the C2 assets closer to the engagement area so the stealthy F-35 with great situational awareness is ready made for the role”
This is down to how open the API is to get the data off onto our proprietary middleware and then into our systems.
Whilst it is ‘just data’ if the API is fully and transparently documented then it is impossible to fully integrate it.
However, there have been trials on data sharing and there must be an API connecting F35 to E7 and P8 in my reading of things so far – being tea leaf reading from hints elsewhere.
Yeh that was my reading as well. The API must be reasonable open as there is talk of being able to talk to ships and ground units. I took it to be a major selling point of the F-35…
However, I would not be surprised if there was a catch somewhere.
Cheers CR
Israel achieved complete air dominance over Iran by using both F35A and F16,F15. The 4th generation aircraft dropped most of the ordnance with F35 tasked with suppression of air defences.
The difference in range between F35A and B is offset by our ability to operate B from a carrier. There is no logic in the plan to buy A version to save a bit of money on training. The nuclear role is unnecessary. What the RAF needs is usable platforms capable of delivering a wide range of weapons. Typhoons does that now, F35 doesn’t and won’t for several more years.
The issue I have is turkey is playing both sides when it comes to the Ukraine war. Which is why Putin is using them for peace talks. I’m not convinced turkey, under it’s current governmen, is not closer to being a threat than an ally. Especially when you consider some of the stuff that has gone on around shutting down freedoms in turkey.
Would rather see them align with other nato members in respect of Russia before we sell them anything
This is not a done deal yet, if Turkey is accepted back to the F35 program than this will probably not go through…
Is it a good deal? Depends on the terms, as long as you sell stuff all is good but if you transfer sensitive technology than its probably a very bad deal in the long term… today Turkish defense industry is 90% PR, it’s Chinese quality minus, this will not be the case if they gain state of the art knowhow
Turkey is a problematic country and also you should expect some retaliation from Greece and Cyprus
Maybe.
It all depends on what mod state they get on the Typhoon.
I doubt the rest of the Typhoon partners will want them to have the very latest fit either.
As for F35 I think letting Turkey have F35 would be about as sensible as letting the Indians or Pakistani’s have F35 – if you did that you might as well sell some to China.
I don’t believe the Turkish boasts about developing a 5th Gen plane TBH.
‘retaliation from Greece and Cyprus ‘ ?? How,when but more importantly why ??.
Greece and Turkey have a very strained relationship, you might say that they are almost at war, if you get too close to one side you automatically move away from the other, the Eurofighter is a multi national project, the UK should not show that it’s keen to elevate the Turkish strike capabilities more than the other countries or it might risk its interests like the airbase in Cyprus
But Greece and Turkey are NATO Allies,their relationship is strained at the best of times yes, but they are also happy to cooperate together in SMG Deployments,training and working together.RAF Akrotiri is at no threat whatsoever from Turkey or anyone else in NATO.Greece has F16,Rafale and will be getting F35,there will be no strategic imbalance in that area.
It would be easy to turn Turkey into an enemy by treating it that way. It’s the one that you feed.
Whilst they support Putin and trade with Russia they already are, they are working against the interests of Europe.
You do know Turkey is quite a pivotal and essential Mediator regarding Ukraine and Russia,and has been since this War began ?.
Yes I’m aware. It’s because Russia trusts turkey as they are indifferent to the war. Being indifferent is not a positive
Not to mention that if they weren’t trading with Russia, along with India and china, then Putin would have no choice to ask for peace as his economy would be in tatters.
We keep hearing the Russian Economy is on the brink of collapse, it’s in tatters etc etc, ad nauseum since 2014, wake me up when it actually happens 🙄.
It already has happened. If it was a democracy with a free press their would be heads on spikes. But agreed, it doesn’t seem to impact things much as there is still money thanks to huge oil trade with the above mentioned countries proping things up.
It’s a shame our government doesn’t want to help sustain these jobs and tag on a small order.