Argentina intends to purchase 12 JF-17A Block III fighters from Pakistan according to a draft budget presented to the nations congress.

CORRECTION: THIS APPEARS TO BE INCORRECT. IT HAS BEEN DENIED BY ARGENTINA.

Open Source Intelligence account @PSFAERO uncovered the news earlier today. He tweeted the following:

“ARGENTINA SELECTS PAKISTAN’S THUNDER JET – The Government of Argentina has officially included $664 Million in funding for the purchase of 12 PAC JF-17A Block III fighters from Pakistan in a draft budget for 2022 presented to its Parliament.”

https://twitter.com/PSFAERO/status/1438814909526065152

The two nations have had friendly relations for a while, Argentina has been part of the consensus in favor of the resolution put forward by Pakistan on the right to self-determination which is debated annually at the General Assembly of the United Nations.

Pakistan has voted in favor of the UN Resolution stipulating that “the continued existence of colonialism is incompatible with the ideal of universal peace held by the United Nations”, which has relevance for the Falklands Islands issue. The chair of the Pakistan Senate has said of the relationship that “Pakistan and Argentina have very close cooperation in various fields and unanimity of views on international issues”.

What is the JF-17?

The JF-17 Thunder is a single-engine multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China. The builders say that the JF-17 can be used for multiple roles, including interception, ground attack, anti-ship, and aerial reconnaissance.

58% of the JF-17 airframe, including its front fuselage, wings, and vertical stabiliser, is produced in Pakistan, whereas 42% is produced in China, with the final assembly taking place in Pakistan.

You can read more about the jet here.

Didn’t Argentina try and buy new jets recently?

Yes, the nation has attempted to buy jets a number of time from various places witht he deals being stopped due to lack of funds or British objections. Most recently last year, Britain blocked the sale of South Korean fighter jets to Argentina.

The Argentine Defence Minister described the move as British “imperial pride” before posting “Malvinas Argentinas” on Twitter.

You can read more about that here.

UK blocks sale of South Korean fighter jets to Argentina

 

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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376 COMMENTS

      • To have 4 Airworthy all the time they will need to buy 40 of these pieces of junk. Ok maybe not, I don’t know much about them, I can’t trust Pakistani reports because like INDIA and China they bend the truth ever so slightly…

          • Firstly why do you assume I am Pakistani? It is perfectly possible to be well informed about the JF-17 without being from Pakistan.

            You were the one who stated these aircraft to be I quote “Junk”. The caveat that you are ignorant about them doesn’t change that.

          • I dont think your Pakistani, I was referring to how Pakistanis act when talking about Pakistani millitary stuff, they think it’s the best ever.

            And after I said “junk” i said “ok maybe not” that cancelled out my junk statement.

          • Fedaykin is from the book Dune, (Which I read as a teen) fantastic story and currently waiting for the new film to come out.

          • its made from tin foil and sheep hides and its Avionics are borrowed from Russian and french sources. light is the word as it will have little in the way of ordinance. IMPERIAL PRIDE, yes when a country cannot feed itself. yet buys fast jets,

          • It would last precisely 0.5 seconds vs an F35B in combat. And about the same time on its approach to a tyoe 45 destroyer guarding one of our carriers. So no I dont think 12 jets can sink any aircraft carrier.

          • JF17 is the backbone fighter of PAF developed from scratch when US blocked defense purchases for Pakistan. It is proven in dogfight with Indian Air Force on 27th Feb 2020 IMPERIAL PRIDE has doomed in Afghanistan.

          • So why use a number of avatars? Troll behaviour, sad but true! The world has changed, sure, sad people now troll others either due to their own sad lives or a few sheckles and a bucket of potatoes!

          • Oh ouch it really hurts when a Muslim country is building and selling fighter jets. I can understand your frustation

          • Its not troll its reality. I can see you and others are feeling the pinch which is understandable. The world is changing

          • Sorry Ali, but can you please name one world leading invention by a Muslim nation? Or anything atall? honestly Ali I’m not taking the piss I want to know. And the west is not intimidated by any Muslim nation

          • Hmm but UK has setup Hawk production in Saudi and if Saudi orders more Typhoons they’ll probably be built their so your comment makes no sense.

          • No one cares what a Muslim nation builds,no let’s be honest they can’t do anything without western help. If they can, name one thing please? And not some bullshit mathematics either.l.

          • It is is not built out of tin foil and sheep hides…sigh.

            It has a fairly conventional fuselage built with Aircraft grade aluminium, composites and steel for hot sections.

            The engine is Russian albeit there is now a domestic Chinese option yet to be taken up by any customer. On that engine the PAF decided to retain the Russian powerplant as their logistics chain is now built around and it wasn’t worth the change.

            There is no Russian or French avionics inside it, the avionics suite is 100% Chinese in origin (this has been well reported).

            It has a very comprehensive weapons suite primarily of Chinese origin but also including third party weapons from Pakistan and other nations. This includes Radar homing active AAM, hobs integrated IR missiles, smart munitions including LGB, stand off missiles both land attack and anti ship missiles. It also has a targeting pod integrated from Turkey.

          • Where did I declare that I was ‘Proud’ of Chinese avionics. I can’t help it if you are ignorant on the subject.

          • So JF17 is not allowed to shoot down MiG21? What about Su30 which was shot down in illegaly indian occupied Kashmir. Which india has always denied it to avoid further embarrasment. I can understand yout frustation and jealousy that a Muslim country is selling fighter jets and nucler armed.

          • THEY actually find parts of AmRam Misslies and alledged it came from pakistan F16. The problem is those parts are available everywhere as F16 has been sold around the world. Indian claims cant be trusted as they also claim shooting down an F16 from a MIG21 which is utter nonsense. According to lock heed martin the manufacturer of F16 pakistan hasnt lost any F16. Then they came up with another crap of a video showing a downed F16. The casing was of GE Engine surprisingly all the pakistan Airforce F16 has whitney and pratt engines. Will india ever confirm with sukhai manufacturers that they hasnt lost a su30?

        • if you wanna is it piece of junk then you should ask it from INDIA what happened 26 February 2019. If they start to curse PAKISTAN and start to abuse Pakistan. Then you will know is it a piece of crap or a heavy duty item. 😉

          • Similar comments yet different avatars, is that the best the Pakistan trolls can come up with mmmm you must make more of an effort.

    • To begin with yes. Argentina have said that they want to licence build the aircraft. They have an aspiration of 40 single seat and 8 two seat trainer/light attack aircraft.

      Whether they actually have the money to pay for this is questionable. However, they Foreign minister trade talks they had with the Chinese, will probably try to offset this with food exports and fishing licences.

    • Yes, only 12 in the first round. 10 are single seater and 2 are twin seater B varient. They will need to setup the infrastructure to manage these birds. I read in Chinese and Pakistani defense journals there have asked for an option for an additional 8 jets at the same price. My guess is there can be a continuation of this contract within 3 to 4 year. With Argentina ending with 20+ of these birds.

      • Do all you newbies ‘commenting’ on JF17 understand everyone on here is laughing at you ? It’s a piece of crap. It might good enough for Pak but in the big boys league it’s a piece of crap.

        • Finally someone who doesn’t want to bum pakistan. Pakistan can’t build anything that’s at the top table… seriously what does Pakistan build that’s among the best? Apart from terrorists. Do they invent anything decent? Have they?

      • JF-17 is offered with two ejection seat options the Martin Baker PK16LE a derivative of the MK16 is one. The other is the domestically produced AVIC TY-5B zero zero ejection seat. The JF-17 prototypes and early examples delivered to Pakistan were fitted with the TY-5B and the examples exported to Myanmar.

        • Yes the J17 does come with 2 ejector seats, but the ones the Pakistani build all come with the MB, in contrast the Chinese built ones can be fitted with their own EJ, the article states that Pakistan is going to supply Argentina.

          • Doesn’t mean the jet can’t be supplied with the AVIC seat if that enables the sale, Pakistan did operate the JF-17 with the Chinese seat prior to adoption of the PK16LE. It would be absurd for them to not offer it as an option on Pakistan built examples.

          • For their own domestic use, again the JF-17 is offered with two seat options and it would be ABSURD for Pakistan to prevent a potential sale because the AVIC seat is requested by the customer.

        • Uk has lost its influence on Pakistan.if they block aid they will lose military assistance in the region. Uk has a lot more to lose there mate. No wonder they all were begging pakistan to help in Afghanistan. Last week Dominic Raab visited pakistan and litterally beg pakistan to get their citizens out of Pakistan. No wonder Pakistan is out of red list.

          • Ali and Capri different avatar same troll as same spelling errors and comment style! So easy to spot a sad troll.

          • I can understand your frustation but that is how it is now. The world is changing different people will be ruling unlike current ones. So get use to it

          • Yaaaaawn, sorry did you reply, your not even very good at trolling, please you must make more of an effort.

          • I am not good at trolling yes you are right. I am not troling just talking facts. May be you dont want to know the facts. Like a pigeon who closes his eyes than assume no one is watching him.

          • WTF was that’s analogy supposed to mean ha ha a ha ha! When trolling on different avatars maybe try to change your spelling errors and style. Very sad.

  3. I’m surprised China hasn’t offered them large subsidies and military aid in return for beef exports.
    Although I don’t think Argentina have any interest in beefing up their military after decades of military dictatorship. But it should be noted China could supply them with credible resources to retake the Fakwlands in the not to distant future if it wanted to.

    • They have sought of. The Chinese now have or are in the process of getting fishing licences from Argentina. Beef will also be another major export along with crops. I think it was last month that their Foreign Ministers had a meeting to discuss trade. I guess this was part of the deal. I’d expect Argentina to announce they are acquiring other Chinese military equipment in the very near future, probably a couple of corvettes.

      In the past Argentina have reneged on pretty much every loan repayment. Thus most Countries wouldn’t lend them money. I’m not sure its wise to do that with the Chinese!

      • Please see the results of 10 years of training and supplying of top-rated kit to the Afghan Fighting Force. China could supply all the weapons Argentina wanted.

        but their Army is now one of the worse trained in the world. and would more likely rob their local supermarket than go to war.

    • Argentina has sold China huge areas for food production . As for Argentina taking (Not retaking) the Islands, the Islands are in a much better position now than they were in 1982.In 1982, Argentina had a powerful and well equipped military and they lost big time, today that isn’t the case, yes they could carry out pin prick attacks, but a major invasion I doubt it.

    • I think the operation of 2 QE class carriers, astute class subs, type 45 destroyers would prevent any Falklands invasion. Argentina would have to massively expand their military with 1st world order kit to succeed.
      Such an expansion would be obvious and offset by an increased defence posture on the islands.
      I think the best the Argentinians could attempt would be some sort of spoiling event or to temporarily capture some of the islands to increase public support back in Argentina or to get international allies to aid them with direct military support against the “colonial power” which is all BS. The islands have been a British overseas territory since 18th Century.
      These J17s are simple Eurofighter fodder.
      I cant see a whole squadron surviving very long against the 4 Eurofighter typhoons on the islands and thats before any reinforcements arrive or a load of F35Bs turn up on HMS Queen Elizabeth or Prince of Wales.

  4. Curious to hear the US made an offer? That seems…strange.

    Might be prudent to consider moving more Typhoons to the Falklands? That’s super etendards and now JF-17s that Argentina have acquired

  5. Before anyone starts saying “what about the Martin Baker Ejection Seat”. The JF-17 is offered with a Chinese domestically built AVIC TY-5B zero-zero ejection seat. The AVIC seat is fitted to CAC built jets and the FC-1/JF-17 prototypes including those delivered to Pakistan were fitted with that seat. Pakistan switched to the MB PK16 after the type was adopted for service. In operation and design it is very similar to a Martin Baker MK10 and AVIC have admitted its design benefitted from technology transfer in the 80’s from Martin Baker.

      • No actually in this case probably not pinched, there was significant tech transfer with China in the 80s and Martin Baker played a part in that exercise. It is for the same reason that China produces a RR Spey derivative in the form of the WS-9

        • How’s China not embarrassed with all the blatant Copy anc pasting of everything!, from knock of Blackhawks and Land rovers and RR to Apple phones.

          Just look at a chinese millitary parade with rip off guns, cloths, humvees and MAN trucks! And Anything they build not to western standards sucks. Granted they are getting better but they still copy most things, how don’t they get embarrassed and lose face, any other nation would. China is a joke of a country. Why we put up with their shit is beyond me.

          look at wuhan lab, they partnered with the French but once the lab was nearly complete they kicked the French out! Then they ran the lab so bad Covid was released and millions dead, e need to prosecute China for covid and island building, and millions more things a blind man could see… ok rant over…

          • I wouldn’t say everything they don’t copy is junk. They don’t just reverse engineer.

            They stole TB of data on the F35 and were even dialled into conference calls between partner companies during its development. They essentially closed the gap and in places overtaken us (the west) on 50 years worth of RnD. Sadly money has trumped common sense and we pretty much handed over IP to get a position in country, too afraid to loose a piece of pie and only now are we waking up to what this is costing us.

          • Really, China has over taken the west in stealth tech?, also I heard indians who have flew along side china’s “stealth jets” like j20 they say that they aren’t so stealthy.
            And Experts point out glaring faults with Chinese stealth jets like the j20, the canards suposedly would cancel out any stealth it thought it had! And China can’t build a good jet engine apparently never mind a next gen modern one, they still build Russian knock offs…

            Money talks sadly even if it’s corrupt Chinese money. And the west really needs to stop selling so many big businesses and debt to China, we really need to stop relying on China so much and start building in the west again. But for some of these reasons is why we won’t go to war with China, Businesses are to intertwined with the west now, just like how Russia gets lots of its money, from Europe and does lots of business and buys lots of German cars qnd uses londons vast financial services, so why would Russia go to war with Europe, it makes no sense.

          • It’s certainly true that canards are a terrible device on a stealthy aircraft indeed Typhoon pilots have strict instructions on their settings when in high risk environments to reduce their radar signature. Also true that China is having serious problems with engine development which has so far reportedly stopped the J20 reaching its design performance and left them desperately trying to get hold of superior Russian engines though Russia, despite their public pronouncements of friendship and cooperation is understandably reluctant to supply them.

          • I was using the F35 as an example of how China has hacked our IP. Parts of the F117 downed iby Serbia ended up in China, they took parts from the stealth helicopter used in the Bin Laden raid and probably had full access to the RQ170 drone that went down in Iran. There’s also suspicions that the Chinese helped bring it down.

            They are probably not ahead on stealth but their efforts go well beyond creating poor quality knockoffs. Areas like hypersonics the the US admits its falling behind China and Russia. The point is, don’t underestimate them.

            I think China is hoping that the West’s will not challenge them on Taiwan due to potential economic loses but its noticeable the US is pushing companies to repatriate manufacturing. China is also pushing for made in China policy to remove oversea dependencies, its also buying up allies through overseas investments.

          • They have very different cultural attitudes to intellectual property rights in China. They also have a strong “let’s not reinvent the wheel” attitude to technology and their defence needs. Also technology that at face value looks to be a slavish copy will often be very different under the skin, their defence electronics sector is in particular capable of cutting edge R&D.

          • The Labour government of 1945 gave Stalin a Rolls Royce jet engine the Rosenbergs gave Stalin secrets for the Bomb

          • The first rule of communism “If at first you don’t succeed Cheat ‘ and thats true with both China and the then Soviets ie the AK 47 copied from Germany as was the RPG China is only good at copying without Licence

          • In Chinese Culture copying an established Master is a source of pride. The better/closer you copy him the better you are.

    • My Dad worked for Martin Baker for at least 35 years. He came home one day with a sequence of photos of an American pilot ejecting from a carrier. He was proud that his work had saved so many lives.

  6. Well, this has been on the cards. Its been obvious for a while that China has been itching to engage in sub-threshold warfare over the Falklands…

      • Theres not a huge difference in weapons comparing conventional and nuclaer atack Submarines so why would the Chinese be that bothered, But Does the Ozzie Collins class hold tomahawks? Their new nuclear atacks will so that should annoy China. And I think the Ozzies should go for VLS on their new subs.

        China would sell its grandmother to anyone if it was making money to mate, not everything’s got sinister motives.

        • As GB and Deep32 would attest, the main issue is range and speed. An AIP boat will need to run diesels every now, so it will need to snorkel and slow down near the surface. Whereas a nuke will stay at depth and just plough on at cruise speed. That’s the main difference between the boats. Although an AIP can be quieter than a nuke it doesn’t have the same patrol range. Which is why the Chises are unhappy. By having a nuke boat the RAN can sail easily within the disputed SCS.

          Yep, the Australian PM announced the subs will be armed with Tomahawks.

          • Read a Comparison yesterday the differences are stark, the OZ diesel boats despite being state of the art for the type, would have had around a max 11 day mission endurance while a nuclear alternative can operate for around 77 days on station. Equally while the cost of the 12 non nuclear Barracudas had risen to $70 billion, the French were claiming 6 nuclear versions for theirselves were to come in at $10b. You can see why they jumped ship, 8 nuclear boats will be exponentially more effective than 12 non nuclear as things stand while with China’s long term increases in capability and reach those barracudas would have been little more than a very expensive defensive coastal screen without substantial theatre support from others. That would have left Australia as little role as a blue water navy and very containable from a Chinese Perspective which would leave it in an increasingly vulnerable state.

          • As Daveyb alludes to above, the difference is speed, a SSN can leap 600+ nm in a day, a SSK can manage about 230ish, on the surface(not exactly stealthy), less if dived, even though they have a higher speed dived – they burn through the battery capacity quicker, having to come to PD to recharge the battery, which takes more time then the time to drain it.
            If you have long distances to transit before you reach your patrol area, a SSN wins every time, which is probably what your quoted figures reflect. If we had both SSNs and SSKs in our fleet, we would still have sent an SSN with the CSG, its what they are built for.

        • It’ll be interesting to see if the RAN opt for vertical launch tubes for their Tomahawks (as per the USN) or whether they go for torpedo-tube launch (as per RN).

          • Yeah it’ll be interesting. What other missiles can be fired from a Sub VLS? Long range Anti ship missiles ect? Anti balistic?

            Also Is there torpedo launched Anti ship missiles? that Astutes could use?

          • Interesting indeed and as I refer to above there seems to be some pressure inside the US to abandon vertical launch tubes and concentrate new SSNs on torpedo tube launched weapons which seems strange to me as I would have presumed big advantages and flexibility from vertical launch. But I guess there are compromises too for a hunter killer as specialising in that role was expressed as a big part of the reasoning though little further enlightenment was given. Don’t know if that was the reason why VLS wasn’t included on Astutes the RN does like to specialise after all. This subject is not my strongest suit so maybe others could offer up more relevant and supporting information on the matter, or just their view on the matter.

          • There is the anti torpedo Torpedo, the yanks used to have them on their carriers, not sure if they still do. I Wonder if the RN has ever had anti torpedo Torpedoes.

          • There is the anti torpedo Torpedo, the yanks used to have them on their carriers, not sure if they still do. I Wonder if the RN has ever had anti torpedo Torpedoes.

        • Interesting about the VLS I had tended to think we were short sighted in not including them on Astute like the US and French have done, seems to offer more flexibility and I had concerns that tube launched Tomahawks will be one obsolete and few new weapons become available to them in the future. I thought the logic and the future was clear. Then yesterday I read that as the US goes through the design process for it’s new attack subs to eventually replace the Virginia class boats, there is strong pressure to specialise as sub killers, dump the VLS and and concentrate on new and upgraded tube launched weapons. Confused? You will be as this version of ‘Soap’ develops no doubt.

      • I doubt that the deal was put together in 48 hours somehow. This is a long held Chinese policy and South America is the third wave after SE Asia and Africa in being put under Chinese economic hegemony. The Falklands no doubt will become a useful if tiny useful tool in achieving their aims of surrounding the US and Europe indeed, with pro Chinese sympathies even if they are effectively achieved through implied threats and economic and political reliance. Unlikely they would do anything overt with the Falklands mind as it could be an Achilles heel for them as it would if taken too far enforce the US to make a choice they are very reluctant to do. Far better low level irritations and undermining playing the political games.

        • Apparently the Aussies brought it up with Adm Radakin when he was over there I think in March. UK and Oz approached US and it snowballed from there. The top level discussions were at G7 in Cornwall.

    • I want China to Arm Argentina!, then that Might help save the British Millitary. Just like how the falklnds saved a chunk of the British Fleet.

      • That’s akin to wanting Germany to rearm in the 1930’s in the hope the U.K. would abandon the Washington Treaty on warships 🤦‍♂️

        • It’s not so dumb, Argentina wouldn’t invade again even if it had the means, but the threat being there keeps the UK on her toes and helps keep our millitary a credible force down there and at home, but sadly much of that is eroding away now…

          • Exactly the first thing we did in 82 when Argentina raised the Flag in South Georgia was Boycott Corned Beef that would put them in their place 😳😀🤔😉🙄

          • Laughed at the Sun’s front cover “UP YER JUNTA ” then dallied around until April 4th when Maggie said to Sandy “Sail south Sandy” and the rest is History

          • The Second thing was laughed at the Sun headlines like “UP YER JUNTA” then got ready for the Cricket, season , Then on April 4th Maggie told Sandy to Sail South ,then Sandy told us to Sail South and the rest is History The Sun’s Headline Don’t Cry For Me Argentina didn’t get to read that until the first mail RAS

    • Chinese fishing fleets are having to fish further and further from home shores as they empty the sea with their industrial hoovering-up of all fish stock. The South Atlantic will definitely be a target for them, but Britain’s defence of the Falkland Islands waters could be an issue for them.

      • You’re a bit out of date, the Chinese fishing fleets are already operating off and in some cases poaching squid from Argentinian waters. The Argentinians sank a Chinese fishing boat that took actions risking collision between the vessels when it was failing to stop after being caught fishing illegally. Do a web search for Chinese fishing boats off Argentina and you will see them all lined up along the EEZ, going “dark”, etc.

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35815444

        • Well I predicted that years ago, but it’s no satisfaction to hear it’s already happening. The future will see increased competition for resources, partly due to population growth but predominantly due to climate-change, and the Chinese will be the most aggressive – including militarily. They aren’t building a blue water navy so they can hold impressive naval regattas.

          • The western allies need to be match fit and combat ready to face China in the 2030s. That is rhe forecasted time when China could develop enough military force locally to overmatch US and allies.
            The Chinese are adding the equivalent of the entire French or Royal Navy to their order of battle every 3-4 years.
            Our response….lethargic and reduced type 26 frigate order. Type 31 barely begun construction. Type 45 power issue still needing resolving. Type 45s not yet fitted with strike vls despite having space and top weight allowance for that arnament.
            Inadequate F35B order. Typhoon needing another tranche ordering (48+ new jets) to be equipped with new radar sets jointly developed with Italy.
            Poseidon order being inadequate at just 9 aircraft. Need a follow on order for at least 5 more.
            Apache E. Just 50 attack helicopters. Cant understand why when they are probably the Army’s best weapon system and are comparatively cheap. Get another 50 ordered.
            Challenger 3…..seriously just 148 tanks?
            Ajax delayed, over budget and likely having severe design faults. No light scout and reconnaissance vehicle for British Army.
            Just 7 attack submarines….any bet we will be gifting astutes 6+7 to Australia?
            Its all a massive mess. HMG have left UK defences perilously weak at a time we should be building them up fulky in the knowledge that China is a growing world menace and threat to democracy and freedom.

          • I’ll take that bet, if you want to put the money up, that the U.K. DOES NOT gift Astute’s 6 & 7 to Australia.
            Your pessimism is ignoring the fact that the Australians are committed to building their submarines domestically and that they haven’t chosen a design yet.
            (Though my money would be on a revised Astute build, with an X-tail plane arrangement and the reactor from the Dreadnought class. Reactor built and shipped to Australia as a sealed unit. Possibly US combat systems added, etc.)

            As for the your fantasy military shopping list. The Defence Budget would need to soar from 2% to 10%, something which hasn’t been the case since the 50’s. Even in the 80’s it was only around 5%.

            After decades of inaction –
            • the T26 build is already under way. • construction of the T31’s will begin soon
            • the final batch of Astute’s is nearing completion
            • construction of the Dreadnoughts has begun
            • one carrier fully operational with another soon to be
            • T45 power-upgrades underway
            We’re virtually at max shipyard capacity, which makes the FSS build interesting to forecast.
            All in all, a better position for the RN than for decades.

            First Sea Lord has said final number of F35Bs will be between 60 and 80, which is enough for the carriers. What has changed drastically since the F35 was first designed UAV technology, and the cut in order is obviously due to planned spend in this area. UAVs are cheaper, potentially having similar capabilities, and don’t risk pilots.

            Which also means we don’t need another tranche of Typhoons. The RAF will be getting UAVs too, along with Tempest. The new radar for existing Typhoons is under development and should be better than the new Italian one.

            Again, no need for more Poseidon. Increasingly we’ll see UAVs taking over this mission too.

            The Army are a mess with their procurement. Ajax has proven to be another example of over-engineering an existing solution. Hopefully the MoD will consider ‘doing an Aussie’.

            Apache is certainly the best asset in the army, though purchase numbers might be being limited due to the US’s replacement project for it… plus have I mentioned UAVs yet?

            As for tanks, I’d upgrade the 150 but I can see them going the way of horse-cavalry in the decades to come.

            The majority of militaries around the world would love to be as under-equipped as the UK is. We are never going back to Imperial numbers of battleships etc, when we could have taken on China at sea and possibly maybe on-land. That doesn’t mean we won’t stand up to them, that’s what alliances are for.
            Hopefully long-term we can defeat China the same way we defeated the Warsaw Pact – hold them off and deter them long enough for their people to rise up.

      • And we really aren’t giving any real thought to the implications for us here. As a Country that can produce about half the food it needs one has to question where we will get out food from (at least at an affordable price) as vertically every producer will not only be feeding it’s own population but will have virtually all it exports acquired by China in deals we simply will not be able to match. Anyone wondering why China is lending all this money to and investing in all this infrastructure for poor and near bankrupt regimes only needs to consider the longer picture here. Of course if we play ball China just might allow us food parcels a bit like it will be happy to buy Australian wine and import it’s coal if it comes to heel. Thankfully unlike NZ its unwilling to enslave itself to a bully.

  8. I’ll believe it when I see it.

    Every previous deal has fallen apart when it comes to “where are the $$$$$” Argentina doesn’t have any of those currently and inflation is running at about 32% per month.

    Nobody will lend Argentina any money as it has a delinquent credit rating.

    Stuff like this would not trouble Land Ceptor or Astor or the Typhoons so why get excited?

    Super Etendards may have been a worry in ’82 but they are decades out of date and easy meat for modern AAW systems.

    Argentina has close to zero navy compared to ’82.

    Nothing to see here: move along.

  9. “Pakistan has voted in favor of the UN Resolution stipulating that “the continued
    existence of colonialism is incompatible with the ideal of universal peace held by the United Nations””

    And more hypocrisy again from Pakistan, with them retaining the Pashtun Homelands, which should be part of Afghanistan.
    And of cause, Balochistan should be a nation in its own right!

    • Maybe sindh should another country too, punjab as well. There are more pushtuns in Pakistan than there are in Afghanistan, these tribes choose to be part of Pakistan, these tribes fought voluntarily for Pakistan in the wars following the partition, so with that said Afghanistan should be part of Pakistan, dont you think? As for Baluchistan, India, and soviets tried in the early days to fuel separatists elements, Soviets were taken care of, but india continues, kulbhshan yadhav, a serving indian officer was caught and admitted to terror financing, (india admitted he was an indian officer), then came the US, along with India did the same, used Baluchistan to fuel terror groups, attack CPEC among other targets, so with two superpowers having attempted and a small terrorist group that even targets its own people getting funding from these foreign powers do not represent anyone and cannot succeed. But obviously its easy to mislead ignorant majority (like yourself) with narrative building against small countries that the ‘colonial powers’ think they need to control. See how a little common sense changes a whole narrative?!

      • Outside states fuelling terror groups in Pakistan. What’s that feel like ? But if I were you I’d be more worried about Iran ! But don’t worry you won’t get anything you don’t deserve.

    • The real irony is Argentina was itself a colony the colonials sort their own future through independence. The Falklands were uninhabited unlike Argentina at the time the Spanish (and Welsh) started to settle there. UK position is the inhabitants have the right to choose.

      • Indeed the same irony that the US always argued they were anti colonialist you couldn’t make it up. Not only are they the actual colonialists, the boots on the ground who’s main reason for seeking Independence was because the ‘colonial’ Govt was actually trying to stop or at least control the colonists preventing them from being as colonialist as they actually wanted to be in exploiting this great new continent opened up by the British army saving them from the French in the 12 years war that in North America the colonialists actually started and we’re then losing. Oh and then went on to equally construct wars against other (Mexican) colonists, Native inhabitants and the Spanish to more than double the size of their possessions and then walked into California’s when it gained momentary independence and then occupied Florida it having briefly presented back to Spain. Used a ship explosion as an excuse to occupy Cuba and then the Philippines and argued that changing one set of colonists for another was ‘liberation’. Yes when warped views of history dictate and write that history in the name of false moral rectitude is it any wonder almost any dictator or sick regime can claim the moral high ground. In truth only certain sorts of colonialism matter to those who formed the very modern institutions that then go on to define it in their favour and ignore awkward contradictions. Sorry to go on.

    • if china attacked, i was in usa in during the falklands war and there was little outright support for helping britain on the tv channels. usa was fighting communism in south america and not wanting to piss off argentine govt.

      • The US quietly provided assistance, the aviation fuel at Ascension Island was pumped from US Tankers offshore, not to mention stocks of AIM 9L Sidewinders for our SHARs. Reagan offered us an Iwo Jim class LPH in the event that either of our carriers were damaged, plus of course all the intelligence quietly fed…..just the tip of a large iceberg…..

    • The PRC is a colonial power. Ask Tibet, the Uighurs, or all the nations being gazzumped in the SCS. Empire building is their goal, hence the belt & road program & massive military expansion. Argentina is a colonial construct too. Tried exterminating Patagonians in the late C19th. We’ve spent the last 70+ years giving back our long past empire to its own peoples. When’s the last time China restored sovereignty to anybody they ruled?

    • No limit to hypocrisy, Pakistan itself only exists due to colonialism be it from pre British conquest creating the ground work to Britain controversially chopping it out of India. That’s why it’s claims in Kashmir are ridiculous it’s akin to Northern Ireland claiming bits of Eire. India may tolerate but never accepted the dissection of its land.

      As for Argentina it itself is just a colonial construct the people talking about colonialism and certainly those in control are themselves greatly the colonialists be they of Spanish or Italian origin. After independence these colonialists then expanded their empire into the south of the continent (after using the Welsh to populate much of it). They have no basis to claim all this land which they then exploit to claim the Falklands by mere proximity to the land they occupied. The Pope who dictated so much of South American colonialism and supposedly gave a legal basis for it never gave rights to these lands from a set distance from Buenos Aires where the original colony existed so they don’t even have that as some sort of basis for their conquest. That said such arguments are pointless and from a World point of view set in hypocrisy considering no one is going to argue it when both the US and Russia (amongst many others of course) formed their Countries through exact same colonial expansionism. So we are left with this narrow warped view of what Colonialism is and who did it that simply does not add up to any sort of moral logical examination sadly.

    • they must be referring to China :”the continued
      existence of colonialism is incompatible with the ideal of universal peace held by the United Nations””

    • The issue Pakistan will face is as soon as this try to get agreed, UK Will cut all foreign aid to Pakistan, as they’re not going to give Aid Money to a country supplying Arms to a country on an embargo.

      • lols and how much aid Britian is giving us some million dollar. Your colonial mind set need to upgrade especially after living Afghanistan when your ministers were requesting support from Pakistan. This century belongs to Asia not any butcher anglo saxon nation. Most of the aid is for Afghan refugees and world food program.
        Pakistan is part of BRI and we don’t care about whatever the west thinks. The geopolitics of the region are pretty much changed.

        • “Not any butcher Anglo Saxon national ” oh dear you do seem quite angry, rude and nationalistic. Calm the racist terminolgy down pal.

      • so, you know Pakistan better than on. We export 80 percent of the world handmade football and most of them goes to Latin America. You guys seems pro india and racists towards Pakistan. So, i don’t think i need to discuss with colonial minds.

          • lols. i am not a western power who use to left when find some resistance. so stay calm i don’t care what you guys think, as most of you guys have very limited knowledge about today’s geopolitics. Some times i really enjoy the level of your know how.

          • You don’t care what we think, so much so you reply to our posts trying to justify your silliness and stupidity. Your still a sad racist, using silly out of date terminology which only uneducated, weak and boring people use. Grow up son.

          • Actually dumbass, the uk has the third most Global influence after usa and China, the UK is a global power iNDIA and pakistan are regional powers, the uk is the second most influential soft power on earth after usa. The uk knows all about world affairs,

        • Student from Zejiang can be found in Pakistan. And so called ex colonial power has several politicians from Pakistan. So, fuck and your hate towards muslim states. stay their in fools paradise.

          • You really are weak, rather than try to debate a point you throw the usual boring “racism” comment out there. Sorry son, doesn’t work as the only person throwing racist comments is you. Sad bell-end.

          • Your struggling aren’t you I can see that. Your the only one talking about Muslim states. Why does everyone hate your country ?

    • That’s almost as bad as the anti fascists who are the actual fascists, or the “anti” racists telling white people they aren’t allowed into black only meetings and groups, that’s Racism lol

  11. Why are we not taking a harder line on Pakistan. They obviously backed the Taliban, Bin Laden was found in a hide out in Pakistan’s secret service city and now this? Note to UK FO Pakistan is not our friend. Why are they still in the Commonwealth?

    • Why do we still give hundreds of millions in foreign aid yearly to Pakistan when they have their own space program and nuclear missiles.. you can see they have the right priority’s!. And a muslim/Islamist nation holding Nukes is scary, I’m sure USA/UK has an eye on Pakistan at all times.

      • US and Pakistan are relative enemies now the US won’t back them any more and they have become puppets to China. India As a result are while still friendly with Russia very much friendlier to the US and the West these days, this really is like an episode of soap. Pakistan I think is being kept ‘ close’ by Britain because in that old adage keep your friends close keep your enemies closer. I think we are just trying to keep them from totally going over to the dark side I don’t see it succeeding long term mind as that traditional public school educated ruling class there is losing its power and that is the only thing holding them together. Might sound bad but I am very wary of allowing Pakistanis to settle here at all especially when you consider how even the likes of that poster boy Khan is no more than a scumbag puppet of the extremists these days.

      • I think their point is that even though great for the money (and even then who knows what weapons they will be sticking on them) realistically these things are no match for the small Typhoon squadron at Mount Pleasant, let alone if a single T45 wandered down. And not sure hows it’s a step towards a heavier fighter, I don’t imagine Argentina can even afford these let alone the next step!

        • The interesting thing here seems to assume weapons somehow win wars, if that is the only element then why did US, UK, NATO etc still lost in afghanistan after 20 years with all the advanced weapons and prior to that russia lost in the same land.

          • We didn’t lose the war we pulled out. And if it was a war where everything was in the table the taliban would have been destroyed along with most of Afghanistan, only thing is there’s a constant stream from pakistan.

      • Buying some second rate 4th generation fighters doesn’t put Argentine “back in the game” for the Falklands. You’re conveniently forgetting they’d need frigates, troop transports, landing craft, armoured vehicles, air-defences, etc etc etc.

  13. So bearing in mind the typhoon is far better they would still have us outgunned 12 to 1.
    Patrol river class no problem
    Also I bet they are good enough to avoid the air defences as we have ripped out rapier and the new system isn’t in yet???

    • Time to divert foreign aid to Pakistan to air defence of the Falklands I think. If China and Pakistan are serious about supporting Argentine’s military ambitions we have a problem looming I think.

    • There are 4 Typhoons stationed on the Falklands, so it would be 3:1. Not to be cocky or arrogant but it would be hard to see how the JF17s would survive a Typhoon/Meteor combination at BVR….

      • Pl15 and pl21 I believe out range the meteor, fit this platform and are comparable in speed and quality according to US military

        • Not necessarily, MBDA are notorious for quoting the minimum guaranteed ranges of their weapons while China tends to quote the maximum theoretical range. Differing political motives there, the former playing it coy, the latter trying to intimidate.

    • Andy a full air intercept typhoon load out might be 4 to 8 medium range AA missiles and 4 to 8 more short range AA missiles plus a canon for dogfight. Typhoon is the worlds best dogfighter platform at close range. Typhoon wouldnt close to close range meteor/ Amraam kill from +30 miles away vs J17. So the 4 Eurofighters on falklands currently could wipe away these 12 jets with extreme ease

      • Really I believe china has missles that fit their own j17’s that have a 200-400km range. There missles are one area experts say they have excelled. We can no longer in the west assume technology will win out over numbers as in the past

          • They are not small missiles like say our Asraam.
            4.5 m long, 40ish cm wide and weigh in at some ,600kg, so not really small.
            Range is dependent on flight profile of missile, and they are fitted with a booster motor to increase range. Nothing technically clever, just a big bit of kit.

        • Calm down, calm down!

          The PL15 is comparable to AMRAAM, whilst the PL21 is primarily designed for high value targets like an AWACS or tankers. To use these missiles first you must detect the target. As Argentina do not have an AEW type of aircraft. This means they must rely on the JF17’s radar or electronic surveillance measures (ESM).

          Unfortunately, the nose diameter of the JF17 is similar to the F16’s. This then dictates the diameter of the radar. The radar’s diameter is one of the factors that dictates the effective radiated power of the radar. Now compare the nose diameter of a Typhoon and you’ll see its nearly twice the diameter.

          The Typhoon was designed to replace the Tornado F3 as a long range interceptor. To do this you need a very long range radar. The Foxhunter was designed to detect Russian bombers over 100 miles away, Typhoon’s Captor upped this significantly, being able to detect a fighter sized target at these distances.

          The Typhoon using its Captor will detect the JF17 before the JF17 can detect it. He who sees first shoots first.

          • The standard Captor-M radar has a distinct detection range advantage over the AESA radar fitted to the JF-17. It is purely down to the effective radiated power (ERP) and receiver sensitivity that a much larger antenna cross sectional area (CSA) gives you over a smaller one.

            The other factor is that both aircraft will have a radar cross section of around 1m3. So the person who can detect the other first will be determined by the radar detecting the other first.

            AESA does have significant advantages over an “old fashioned” Pulse Doppler radar, especially when it comes to low probability of detection. However, the Typhoon’s Praetorian DASS has been designed to detect AESA radars. With AESA you will have faster sweep rates and a tighter beam diameter, plus you transmit multiple waveforms simultaneously. But, within the context of the JF17, it will still be out ranged by the Typhoon’s radar.

            The ERP of an AESA is mostly determined by the number of transmitter-receiver modules (TRMs) the array contains. The second most important aspect is the quality and quantity of the signal processing.

            Each TRM is an individual radar in its own right. But as the CSA of the JF17’s nose is quite small, this limits the number of TRMs that the array can contain. It’s a similar problem that the Gripen has with its Raven AESA radar. Even though it uses elements of the Captor-E radar. The aircraft’s smaller nose limits the number of TRMs and therefore the effective detection range.

            The Captor-M is a phenomenally powerful radar. It is in the same performance class as the F15’s pre-AESA APG70 radar. The Captor-E Radar 1 is slightly more powerful than the original radar, whilst the Radar 2+ has been stated is more powerful still. This is down the the TRM arrangement. Where the Radar 1 uses a separate number of TRMs as an IFF radar. whilst Radar 2+ can do the IFF waveforms with the newer and better TRMs. Therefore the whole area of the TRMs is used for radar detection, which increases the ERP etc.

            Whichever Tranche of RAF Typhoon the JF17 faces, it will be detected and tracked before it can do the same with the Typhoon. It’s ESM should be able to detect the Typhoon, but it won’t be able to track it, ie range, bearing height etc.

        • Chiba was all about numbers and screw the accuracy or effectiveness, now they have numbers and accuracy and effectiveness.. scary.

    • They won’t outnumber the Typhoons 12-1. Even if they threw all 12 at the Falklands it would be 3-1. Even then it’s not much of a threat.

      The only chance they would have is if our pilots felt particularly sporting and sent up a single Typhoon. Even then the JF-17s wouldn’t have much of a chance until the Typhoon runs out of missiles.

  14. The United Kingdom gives Pakistan foreign aid. Pakistan is not a friendly power and has not been for years. When Pakistan said it would recognise northern Cyprus, the first country to take this step, the internationally recognised legitimate government of unoccupied Cyprus said it would recognise Balochistan, a province of Pakistan that wishes for independence. The Pakistanis had second thoughts and withdrew.

      • This did happen. Northern Cyprus languishes. My point is one must see matters for what they are; we have been aiding a government in Pakistan that raised up and supports our enemies. I am also very sceptical about sending aid to many countries where the results never seem to match objectives, particularly when some of those objectives are focussed on women’s rights and education. Time to end this folly of ‘soft influence’.

        • If we send foreign aid it shouldn’t be money, but equipment thst we bought in the UK like jcbs and land rivers water pumps ect.

    • Yes, you’re probably right about ‘woke’ ‘leftwing wonks’, and Pakistan has totally played us with its support for the Taliban in the last 20 years. But they might have gone too far this time. Maybe?

      • Nah,
        The left are fully entrenched inside the U.K., I mean all the protests on the M25 this week started after that Judge cleared those XR protesters for blocking major roads and let them walk free.

        We saw similar with how protesters who have smashed up subs, blocked runways, and huge plate glass windows have all walked free.

  17. Hopefully by the time that these are delivered (if they are) Sky Sabre should be up & running & Meteor on a Typhoon will outrange whatever is fitted to the JF-17.

      • We won’t ever station an E-7 so why not stick a TARS site at MPN ? Don’t think these are much threat unless Argentina get better AAR capability. I don’t know what the status is with the possible KC-390 from Brazil? if they get some of those then maybe!

          • In an ideal world. Like the fleet the Island just needs to be able to see further than the horizon to have better chance of defending itself. Crowsnest is a step but not as good as proper AEW due to altitude/endurance, maybe we should buy some old US Navy E2 for Mpn/Asi/Akt

  19. The JF17 is an interesting aircraft. It was designed to replace the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) Mirage III/5s and Chinese Mig 21 copies. It will also replace their F16s to some extent (at least the early Block aircraft), although they may be the first export customer for the Shenyang FC31 aircraft.

    The aircraft was designed in-house with help from both Russia and China. But, if you look at the aircraft carefully you will see a lot of F16 elements. Pakistan has an agreement with the US on how their F16s are used. They can’t be used offensively and are not allowed to cross in to India. The US have also used embargos on maintenance and spares to get political leverage. So logically the Pakistan want rid of the F16s. Having experts from both Russia and China, who then had first hand access to the F16s. You can see the JF17 has evolved from it. It has the same design of main wing and elevators. The fin is very similar as are the two ventral strakes underneath the engine. The main difference is with the shape of the leading edge root extensions (LERX), which are better shaped to generate a more violent vortex, which will help with high alpha manoeuvres. The bifurcated diverterless inlets are a simple and effective design to cope with engine intake boundary flow problems. They also help to hide the face of the engine from radar. Though limit top speed to under Mach 2.

    There has been a lot of issues with Russia supplying the engine (same as Mig 29/35), as the Mig is a direct competitor, which hasn’t been doing so well on sales lately. The JF17 aircraft may be the main reason for the Su75 Checkmate being designed primarily for export. As the usual Countries that look to Russia for aircraft have been switching over to China/Pakistan, as the aircraft is not only cheaper, but by all accounts pretty good. China have been developing a new engine for the JF17 which is based on the Russian RD93 engine, so should be available soon and upset the Russians even more!

    Will the JF17 Block 3 be competitive against a Typhoon Tranche 2/3? No, even the old Captor-M radar will significantly outrange the JF17’s radar. If we now compare it with a Captor-E radar 2+, its possible that it won’t even detect the Typhoon’s radar. The JF17 will be detected before it can detect the Typhoon. If they have to merge for a visual engagement, the Typhoon still has the upper hand, as it has a better power to weight ratio and will bleed off less energy in a turn. The best way to look at the aircraft is as a “poor man’s” Gripen, not as good, but good enough. However, both aircraft have helmet cueing and the JF-17 will likely be armed with the Darter missile, which is a true dogfighting missile unlike ASRAAM. But the Typhoon, using Pirate will be able to identify the JF17 from an extreme range and launch ASRAAM before the JF17’s comes within the Darter’s firing envelope.

    • Thank you Daveyb – a very interesting and insightful read. Would Typhoon’s DASS also play an important role in any engagement – esp within visual range against the Darter missile?

      • A million dollar question!

        The Praetorian DASS that the Typhoon uses, has been recently enhanced with the expendable Britecloud RF decoys. These will try to mimic active radars and lead a radar guided missile away. It also has a towed RF decoy if these fail. The aircraft still relies on expendable multi spectrum flares for IR countermeasures. This is where things get complicated.

        The A-Darter uses a dual band IR sensor. But a lot of the bumf doesn’t refer to it as an imaging infrared (IIR) sensor. However, I have also seen that the sensor is referred to as a thermal imaging sensor, which is an IIR sensor. Multi-spectrum flares have a greater chance at deceiving dual band IR sensors. As the missile’s ECU is looking for specific heat sources. Whilst an IIR sensor looks at the overall target picture and compares it with the sky’s/background temperature. This makes it significantly harder for it to to be deceived by flares.

        Leonardo as part of EuroDass are heading up the evolution of Praetorian 2. Little has been said what the upgrade will include, but we may see directed infrared countermeasures (DIRCM) fitted to the aircraft. DIRCM is pretty much the only effective way to defeat IR homing missiles that use IIR sensors and the missile’s ECU uses moving target algorithms. The newest versions use a laser to blind/dazzle the IIR sensor. They aren’t yet powerful enough to damage the sensor, though a couple of manufacturers are now claiming this.

        The A-Darter was the first missile to achieve an over the shoulder engagement. It’s sensor has a very high field of view. It uses moving tail surfaces to control its flight. Unlike Iris-T or Sidewinder it doesn’t uses additional surfaces for lift generation so isn’t a hyper agility missile. It has had some very good reviews.

        • Thank you Daveyb – you clearly know what you are talking about and your note above was a fascinating read. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

  21. Yawn.

    The usual panic over Argentina. How do they invade without taking MPA? Which is well defended, and surrounded by open terrain far inland. We can airlift reinforcements quickly, and any sniff we get of what a coming has an SSN or two down there. And we do have the ability to sniff, be it SIGINT, radio signals, or radar.

    China meddling is always one to watch. But an Argie threat to the Falklands? Nope. Not by purchasing 12 Jets.

    • I suspect that while pakistan maybe supplying the jets this is really a chinese move to reduce the number of carriers it will face when it makes its move. Pakistan for its sake has shown its own intentions are for a post usa primacy with its support for the taliban. By supplying argentina i think this makes britain open to a two war scenario which it would either have to reserve assets for or risk failure in one.
      I say this as it comes after the aussie sub deal and argentina has been sniffing for jf17s before. Next move chinese marines (read peavekeepers) in the solomon islands.

      • OK worse case China funds this deal to supply 12 jets that would probably get shot out the sky by a Hawk T 2, T 1 would probably do a number on them.
        China then loses its exports to the UK All trade to the UK. Does anyone know the value of trade between China and the UK. they will poke and probe around their homelands?

        But the Western World is reliant on Chinese production. we kind of fall flat on our arses, even the Germans have allowed them to get deep in their engineering.

        i know a well know supplier of electrical parts to the aviation industry based in France but sells globally.
        75% of its components are from China, with a French part added to say its made in france.

    • Dan,
      I went down on a Battlefield Tour in 2014. (Mate of mine was the training WO for his unit and when at the last minute somebody had dropped out, he asked if I could make it, had to ask my OC, but he was happy) All it cost me was to deliver 2 lectures :

      Here’s a picture I took from the runway in Stanley

        • It has a certain barren beauty to it. You had good weather too.

          I take it the Stanley runway is too short for the RAFs assets?

          • Stanley was too short and was used to defend the islands while Mount Plesant was being built.
            Phantoms were based out of Stanley after 82.

          • That’s right, until MPA was built. I was wondering now? Has it been lengthened in case MPA unavailable? I presume it is used by light ac?

          • In 1982, no, my squadron was based on the runway. And it was covered in AM2 matting , which allowed Phantoms to use the Runway. That said they fitted RAGGS to the top of the runway in which to slow down the F4s. On the anniversary of the invasion in 1983. The RAF had a few Buccaneers on the pan.

            the only problem with the AM2 matting was it shifted and if a Herc came in with its refuelling pipe not reeled in, it would rip up the runway. So the whole squadron would be out to pick up and relay the AM2 matting , did that a number of times and entailed 18 hour days. At the time the argies loved to test us and would fly jets into our air zone resulting in all the rapier sites going ballistic , and the F4s and Harriers taking off. Thankfully they never did so when the runway was up, saying that the Hercs from Ascension continued flying in and would carry out a very short landing (and I mean a very short landing usually from height as well)

          • I was on a T22 during the first anniversary sat in Hamlet patrol area. Some smart arse Phantom pilot thought it would be a good idea to do a low level approach on a T22…We had him detected at max range on R967 (doppler radar loved fast movers!) then locked him up with the 910 tracker at around 20Km and he soon went a lot higher in his approach.

            Fun times…and yes the Argie planes did come in to tickle the defences as did there surface units . With MPA under construction there where the temp radar sites up and running, , 2x T22( Brilliant , Broadsword) , 2 x T42 ( Brum and Scum) and HMS Falmouth ( Not sure what she brought to the party!),a nuclear sub somewhere around, Phantoms and Rapier all lighting up anything that came in.

          • 3rd and final time for me was 87 for the 5th anniversary number 8s with medal new rig to me Naval Party 2010 Stenna Seaspread what no weapons but did have a Sauna cussie little draft , except I was given 24hr notice that My talents were required down at Mare Harvour Another bloody winter every bloody time

          • Too much ,F ing Kelp had to rescue the Merchant boys so many times when they went out in the Gemunis for jollies Kelp would tangle prop , then they’d try and restart engine in Gear Aaarrg!!!!!!

        • I Would say i miss it, but when we were Building Mount Pleasant it was never pleasant.
          earn lots of money they said, yep there is nothing to spend it on.

          • What about the beer can dispenser vending machine at wideawake and your Dutyfrees clearing customs at Brize was a doodle unless you returned with Argie hardware Hee Hee

          • Shacon City, as we called it Shipping containers everywhere with luxury accommodation too boot would probably be short listed by the BBC for Escape to the country hillbilly version

    • … so the local population, whom the government presumably need some degree of support from in the long term, sees the uk as a friend?

      • I heard the rich in Pakistan don’t pay tax as their government gets enough from foreign aid. So Brits on average to low salaries are paying tax, so multi millionaires in Pakistan don’t have to.

  23. I don’t think Argentina will be in a position to try to take the Falklands for many decades. Pakistan or PRC claiming we’re colonial is rich. Who granted Pakistan their independance?
    The PRC is a colonial power. Ask Tibet, the Uighurs, or all the nations being gazzumped in the SCS. Empire building is their goal, hence the belt & road program & massive military expansion. Argentina is a colonial construct too. Tried exterminating Patagonians in the late C19th. We’ve spent the last 70+ years giving back our long past empire to its own peoples. When’s the last time China restored sovereignty & freedom to anybody they ruled?

    • The UK ‘gave’ Pakistan its independence? Talk about colonial mentality. The British Empire dissolved because it saw clearly that it no longer had the resources to maintain its rampantly exploitative chokehold on its colonies. The alternative to independence in the sub-continent was not a continuation of the British Empire, it was Algeria and Vietnam style violent wars for independence which would ultimately, painfully favour the determined locals over foreign empires that had squandered their own strength ravaging one another in two world wars. In this, the British saw the writing on the wall better than the French did.

      We took our independence, and despite every attempt to hobble the future economies and political independence of Pakistan and indeed India, we are continuing to emerge from the shadow of the British’s theft of our future. Our alliance with China has provided Pakistan with both serious economic investment and military security and is far more valuable than the dribbles of our own stolen wealth the UK sees fit to give back to us.

  24. No no no, this won’t do, this represents the worst every threat this country has ever faced, ever, nothing comes close…ever.
    We need an additional 4 carriers, 300 F35s, 30 more frigates and destroyers, 20 subs and we need them now! Double the defence budget, triple, nay quadruple it!

  26. We have strong civil and military relationship with India which includes cooperation in defence equipment manufacturing and technology transfer. India is an adversary of China and Pakistan, so sale of JF17 a joint development of China and Pakistan to Argentina is not surprising.

    After Aukus, we will see proliferasion of more sensitive defence technologies like nuclear powered submarines by China to countries like Pakistan, Iran North Korea and Turkey to counter Aukus.

    If, you arm my adversary, I will arm your adversary. Simple philosophy adopted by China. We will see more arm sales to Argentina by China, directly or indirectly in future.

    • Totally agree. Australia is potentially under threat from Chinese expanionist policies. They need to face down Chinese growing military might. A diesel electric submarine doesnt have the endurance to provide long duration loitering submerged patrols.
      Just hope UK PLC obtains the nuclear propulsion and sonar and torpedo contracts. Ideally Australia will opt for an Astute derivative hull.
      France must be smarting as their Barracuda class diesel electric subs were actually initially nuclear propulsion but were redesigned for diesel electric based upon Australia’s requirements for a direct replacement for the Collins class. Do you think to get Australia up and running any of our decommisioned nuclear subs could be returned to service? That would be quickest way for Aus to get SSNs.
      Interesting times. I guess the other geopolitical tale here is the Anglosphere nations turning away from the over powering federal superstate that is the EU and all its toxic double standards and sucking upto China and Russia.

    • The general mood here in AUS is favorable towards this alliance & the SSN deal. There has been much justified criticism to the French Sub deal. So this indeed welcome news. I admire the Aussies for their stance against Chinese expansion, unlike our NZ government.

    • Yes Gary what many people forget is that in the game of geopolitics in the end it’s always about your nation, alliances and enlightened self interest are always fleeting, friends become enemies and enemies become friends. But always every nation must look to it’s own interests. Trump was criticised for America first, but actually that’s always been the case with not just America but every nation on Earth, it’s just that him being so blatant about it was damaging to good relations.

      Yes nations with the same core values should stick together, but never forget when it all comes to it nations protect themselves first and last. That’s why we have our own nuclear weapons, it makes it impossible for America to back out of nuclear conflict ( if it was just Russia and the US there would be a very good chance the US would not invite a nuclear strike on US soil over Europe, but with the U.K. involved it creates uncertainty).

    • Australia 🇦🇺 took the right decision in going for UKUS why ? Because All the instruction too operate will be in English can’t go wrong there

  28. Unlike in ‘82’ any Argie airfield would now be at great risk from a few TLAM,s lobbed in from an Astute or two. I dare say this would hinder any air threat from coming our way quit well😀

  29. So if things go bad we will see JF 17 vs EF 2000 Tranche 3 / JSF (Both armed with Meteor and ASRAAM missile) over the Falklands? Basically a repeat of the one sided turkey shoot during the last Falklands war IIRC 21-0 was the score last time..

    Why not buy something like the J 31 or the Su 75 Checkmate in the medium term and a good trainer aircraft like the Yak 130 in the short term ?

  31. I am from Argentina , and will say , it’s not possible right now , with a destroyed country , with almost 50% poverty , 30% of unemployment after the populist experience .
    Besides the Argentine Air Force not longer exist , just a half dozen of oldies Skyhawks and , maybe 30 pampas for training .
    Cheers mates , let’s talk about rugby 🏉 lol 🍺🍺

  32. I would think that no matter what the Argentinians do to resuscitate their military they will not be likely to pose a serious military threat to the Falklands in the foreseeable future. Any such threat is more likely to arise in the event of a left leaning Labour Party being re-elected in the UK under the leadership of someone like Corbyn who would be willing to negotiate away sovereignty to the Argentinians. The irony is that Pakistan and Argentina have both signed the UN Right to Self determination Agreement!!??

    • As I understand, Argentina was part of the Spanish empire, Britain tried twice to help push them out and stayed neutral when they were. The islands were still uninhabited when discovered by Europeans.

      France established a colony on the islands in 1764. In 1765, a British captain claimed the islands for Britain. So essentially, I don’t feel Argentina has any historical claim to the islands. Added to the right for self-determination the islanders want to be British!

      I don’t understand how Argentina is able to get any traction from these countries, who themselves have dubious claims. Israel > Palestine, Pakistan > Kashmir etc.

      It was however Margaret Thatcher’s government who developed a white paper on handed the islands ‘back’ prior to 1982. This gave the military junta a feeling we didn’t even want them anymore and they themselves were genuinely shocked when we did declare war.

      If only she had reinforced the tiny RM detachment with the signals intelligence she received it might have all been avoided. Another reason why we should invest in our military. It can have both soft and hard power.

      • A5 the time the tories were not doing well at home not with employment and Toxteth and Brixton riots and John Knott ready to cut the Armed forces Maggie had no option but too show some British reserve and take the Islands Back

        • Hi Tommo, I think it was Thatcher’s second term by the time of the Falklands. Some hint she wouldn’t have been re-elected without it. I admit I wasn’t born until after the conflict so no expert.

          But I never said we shouldn’t have retaken the islands. I just said we should never have lost them in the first place. HMS Hermes was due to be scrapped, but I understand it was more the ineptitude of Politicians which made the Argentinians think we had no desire to keep the islands, and then as the grew in confidence defend them if taken by force.

          Of course the bravery of our Marines, Paras and others still inspire us today. The Yomper statue in Portsmouth is iconic of British grit 🙂

          On a separate note, it’s shameful/scandal the RM museum can’t get lotto funding, how many times do they have to ask!

          • Maggie called an election in 83 and crushed Foot and Kinnock into the ground with a wave of Nationalism after the stunning unexpected retaking of the Falkkands I’m afraid Eastney barracks was sold off Lease hold only so we could get them back in time of War it was those residents who wingdes about the museum the static displays even the yomper with Union flag it was spoiling the view of the SOLENT Bloody guardian reading bucks fizz quoffing Tenant’s

          • As early as 1977 there was British intelligence that Argentine military action was possible if talks over the Islands went bad. Yet Thatcher gave evidence that raw intelligence was only revealed to her 2 days before?? Despite the British Ambassador stating his warnings went ignored. I don’t think we will get the whole truth or if we ever do years after people have forgotten.

            It’s hard to make sense of Afghanistan for the same reason. I don’t think we know full picture. But certainly Pakistan has always been the major problem. Removing logistical air support & Bagram was idiotic.

            Hopefully Argentina buys a duff airframe and America calls its losses and stops selling any arms to Pakistan until they can prove they have cleaned up extremism in its intelligence agencies.

          • Um Pakistan, devious indeed the godfather of their Atomic programme, apparently had a hand in North Korean’s weapons programme aswell Anyway Airfix build better

          • HMS Endurance warned of it, they had SIGINT kit.
            Defence Attache / Ambassador in BA warned of it.
            GCHQ warned of it.
            Chile I believe also warned of it.
            NZ Intelligence warned of it.
            Carrington ignored the warnings.

  35. Pakistan air force has demonstrated superiority as responsible force in all past events
    That pains a lot to neighboring india and its old fathers

  36. Well at least the mount pleasant Typhoons will have slightly more modern targets to shoot down if required lol….I know I know the Argies wouldnt/couldn’t try to retake the FI by force, just diplomacy, just a bit of banter chaps.

    • Has anyone said anything about how Argentina ethnically cleansed the original people of what is now Argentina should of raised that at the UN when they were trying to diplomatically snatch British real estate Whoops only banter guys

      • LOLLLL WHAT A LIAR. Almost 70% of Argentine people have at least one indigenous ancestor. We belong here, you racist Saxon

  37. They support the right to self determination? Oh, so they accept that wish of the Falkland Islanders to remain a British dependency…

  38. These aircraft are complete junk – structural cracks, failure in the fly by wire system, 60% are unavailable inthe PAF in general and very high maintenance cost. The Argentine government preferred the KAI FA50 or HAL Tejas, but both were forced to pull out due to UK parts which were blocked from export to Argentina by UK. The MiG 35 is more capable but too expensive so J17 was the only option. But a complete waste of money if you ask me.

  39. Pakistan is an evil islamic country that harbours some of this worlds most heinous terrorists. GB should immediately cancel all aid and assistance. Withdraw ambassadors and start revoking work permits and joint passports. Start deportations by the thousand.

  42. Bottom like is Paki has a formidable fighter jet that comes with no strings attached. 12 units of JF17 block 3 equipped with PL15 and PL10E can cause a very serious problem for any one. Our good friends in India can attatest to what Block 2 did to them and this is a Block 3. My only concern is if UK and US don’t approve high end military sales to Argentina we may loose our leverage on that country. It’s sort of a double edged sword issue.

  43. JF-17 JETS …. Successfully accomplished various operations, Especially during a conflict with India ( on 27th February 2019) when India’s 2 jets were destroyed ( 2 pilots killed) and one pilot Mr Abinandhan was arrested by Pakistani Army.

  45. Just think, if China green lights the sale of the JF-17 Block 3 to Argentina. That also includes the possibility that Argentina could get the CM-400AKG Air to Surface Missile. Which flies at Mach 4 up to 150 miles, which means if Argentina gets it from China, then the British have NO room left to maneuver. Also if Argentina dose by the JF-17, they could also be in line for the Type 054A frigate,Type 056 corvette, Type 056 corvette, Type 039A submarine.

    Why do you think that War is boring also said that the JF-17 is the 21st centuries version of the MIG-21. https://medium.com/war-is-boring/this-is-the-ultimate-mig-21-715bb9297261

  47. 21/09/21 Reuters Headline, Argentina to spend $ 200mil plus on Aircraft possibly from either US or China and I don’t think these will be trainers ?

  48. Does the UK give money to Pakistan?
    Update: Pakistan remains one of the UK government’s largest bilateral aid programmes. In 2013/14 the bilateral aid spend in Pakistan was £253 million. This is expected to increase to an estimated £310 million in 2014/15 subject to project performance and continued progress with key policy reforms, including on tax.

  51. I have read in some defense forums, that the US Department of Defense, has requested permission from Congress to transfer 38 F16,Block 15 ex Denmark Air Force,which are very well maintained and upgraded, plus 4 PC Orion ex N Zealand.
    In addition, the Argentas require KC 135 aircraft.
    Argentina is a failed state, with 44% of the population below the poverty level, indebted to the IMF and other international organizations, but very astute in demanding without money, that Powers such as the USA or China, grant them access to war material, because since the end of hostilities by the Faklands, they have a block obsolescence of their Armed Forces.
    They demand BVR missiles, Data link 16 and a series of restricted access to electronic systems (they even demand an AWACS like those of Chile, exclusive in South America) and all because they have the option to build a port in the South of Argentina, with Chinese financing and Chinese administration ….. Is it possible to give so much without having financial assets…? to a country noted for its unreliability, unstable, corrupt…?

    Cheers

    Hernan Garcia

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