Argentina intends to purchase 12 JF-17A Block III fighters from Pakistan according to a draft budget presented to the nations congress.

CORRECTION: THIS APPEARS TO BE INCORRECT. IT HAS BEEN DENIED BY ARGENTINA.

Open Source Intelligence account @PSFAERO uncovered the news earlier today. He tweeted the following:

“ARGENTINA SELECTS PAKISTAN’S THUNDER JET – The Government of Argentina has officially included $664 Million in funding for the purchase of 12 PAC JF-17A Block III fighters from Pakistan in a draft budget for 2022 presented to its Parliament.”

The two nations have had friendly relations for a while, Argentina has been part of the consensus in favor of the resolution put forward by Pakistan on the right to self-determination which is debated annually at the General Assembly of the United Nations.

Pakistan has voted in favor of the UN Resolution stipulating that “the continued existence of colonialism is incompatible with the ideal of universal peace held by the United Nations”, which has relevance for the Falklands Islands issue. The chair of the Pakistan Senate has said of the relationship that “Pakistan and Argentina have very close cooperation in various fields and unanimity of views on international issues”.

What is the JF-17?

The JF-17 Thunder is a single-engine multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China. The builders say that the JF-17 can be used for multiple roles, including interception, ground attack, anti-ship, and aerial reconnaissance.

58% of the JF-17 airframe, including its front fuselage, wings, and vertical stabiliser, is produced in Pakistan, whereas 42% is produced in China, with the final assembly taking place in Pakistan.

You can read more about the jet here.

Didn’t Argentina try and buy new jets recently?

Yes, the nation has attempted to buy jets a number of time from various places witht he deals being stopped due to lack of funds or British objections. Most recently last year, Britain blocked the sale of South Korean fighter jets to Argentina.

The Argentine Defence Minister described the move as British “imperial pride” before posting “Malvinas Argentinas” on Twitter.

You can read more about that here.

UK blocks sale of South Korean fighter jets to Argentina

 

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Mickey
Mickey
24 days ago

Only 12?

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  Mickey

The minimum amount to allow for training and maintain QRA.

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

To have 4 Airworthy all the time they will need to buy 40 of these pieces of junk. Ok maybe not, I don’t know much about them, I can’t trust Pakistani reports because like INDIA and China they bend the truth ever so slightly…

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

The JF-17 is not junk, it is a modern and perfectly credible light fighter.

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

its made from tin foil and sheep hides and its Avionics are borrowed from Russian and french sources. light is the word as it will have little in the way of ordinance. IMPERIAL PRIDE, yes when a country cannot feed itself. yet buys fast jets,

Faisal Bajwa
Faisal Bajwa
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

It can sink any air craft carrier which may be refuelled by South American neighbours.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
22 days ago
Reply to  Faisal Bajwa

It would last precisely 0.5 seconds vs an F35B in combat. And about the same time on its approach to a tyoe 45 destroyer guarding one of our carriers. So no I dont think 12 jets can sink any aircraft carrier.

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  Faisal Bajwa

Ha ha ha hilarious! The number of trolls on this story is amusing.

Shabbir Ahmed
Shabbir Ahmed
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

JF17 is the backbone fighter of PAF developed from scratch when US blocked defense purchases for Pakistan. It is proven in dogfight with Indian Air Force on 27th Feb 2020 IMPERIAL PRIDE has doomed in Afghanistan.

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  Shabbir Ahmed

India kicks your arse every time, another one story troll, very boring.

Airborne
Airborne
20 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

So why use a number of avatars? Troll behaviour, sad but true! The world has changed, sure, sad people now troll others either due to their own sad lives or a few sheckles and a bucket of potatoes!

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Shabbir Ahmed

You think the JF17 was developed 100% by Pakistan? lol, pakistan can barely design a working Sink or toilet.

Ali
Ali
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Oh ouch it really hurts when a Muslim country is building and selling fighter jets. I can understand your frustation

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  Ali

Why mention Muslim troll? Who cares?

Ali
Ali
21 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Its not troll its reality. I can see you and others are feeling the pinch which is understandable. The world is changing

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Ali

Sorry Ali, but can you please name one world leading invention by a Muslim nation? Or anything atall? honestly Ali I’m not taking the piss I want to know. And the west is not intimidated by any Muslim nation

Last edited 20 days ago by Reaper
expat
expat
21 days ago
Reply to  Ali

Hmm but UK has setup Hawk production in Saudi and if Saudi orders more Typhoons they’ll probably be built their so your comment makes no sense.

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Ali

No one cares what a Muslim nation builds,no let’s be honest they can’t do anything without western help. If they can, name one thing please? And not some bullshit mathematics either.l.

Mike
Mike
23 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Ha 😀 love it (tin foil).

Shabbir Ahmed
Shabbir Ahmed
21 days ago
Reply to  Mike

No issue – Pakis may offer a KAMIKAZE in the tinfoil. What will they do, then????????

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
23 days ago
Reply to  Johan

It is is not built out of tin foil and sheep hides…sigh. It has a fairly conventional fuselage built with Aircraft grade aluminium, composites and steel for hot sections. The engine is Russian albeit there is now a domestic Chinese option yet to be taken up by any customer. On that engine the PAF decided to retain the Russian powerplant as their logistics chain is now built around and it wasn’t worth the change. There is no Russian or French avionics inside it, the avionics suite is 100% Chinese in origin (this has been well reported). It has a very… Read more »

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

To be proud of CHINESE avionics ect is really embarrassing… it’s not a good thing mate.

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
20 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Where did I declare that I was ‘Proud’ of Chinese avionics. I can’t help it if you are ignorant on the subject.

NoobMiner
NoobMiner
23 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

if you wanna is it piece of junk then you should ask it from INDIA what happened 26 February 2019. If they start to curse PAKISTAN and start to abuse Pakistan. Then you will know is it a piece of crap or a heavy duty item. 😉

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  NoobMiner

Similar comments yet different avatars, is that the best the Pakistan trolls can come up with mmmm you must make more of an effort.

Capro
Capro
23 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Right you don’t know much about the aircraft and calling them pieces of junk ?

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Capro

Look Capro, the JF17 is junk. Always will be.

Farman Ali
Farman Ali
23 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

I think u have to do ur own production maybe u can make more smoothly and arrange full

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Farman Ali

My country already does do its own PRODUCTION mate…

Daveyb
Daveyb
24 days ago
Reply to  Mickey

To begin with yes. Argentina have said that they want to licence build the aircraft. They have an aspiration of 40 single seat and 8 two seat trainer/light attack aircraft.

Whether they actually have the money to pay for this is questionable. However, they Foreign minister trade talks they had with the Chinese, will probably try to offset this with food exports and fishing licences.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Fishing licenses in the Falklands territorial waters no doubt. Can imagine the Chinese trying that.

Andy Reeves
Andy Reeves
24 days ago
Reply to  Mickey

first time in decades that argentina is investing in its armed forces

George Parker
George Parker
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy Reeves

Decades to soon.

Khalid Nadeem
Khalid Nadeem
23 days ago
Reply to  Mickey

12 can hold and guide to earth 120

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  Khalid Nadeem

Ha ha haaaaaa sad troll.

Jay Cutler
Jay Cutler
23 days ago
Reply to  Mickey

Yes, only 12 in the first round. 10 are single seater and 2 are twin seater B varient. They will need to setup the infrastructure to manage these birds. I read in Chinese and Pakistani defense journals there have asked for an option for an additional 8 jets at the same price. My guess is there can be a continuation of this contract within 3 to 4 year. With Argentina ending with 20+ of these birds.

David Steeper
David Steeper
21 days ago
Reply to  Jay Cutler

Do all you newbies ‘commenting’ on JF17 understand everyone on here is laughing at you ? It’s a piece of crap. It might good enough for Pak but in the big boys league it’s a piece of crap.

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Finally someone who doesn’t want to bum pakistan. Pakistan can’t build anything that’s at the top table… seriously what does Pakistan build that’s among the best? Apart from terrorists. Do they invent anything decent? Have they?

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago

Alongside the Mig-29 the JF-17 was really the only game in town that wasn’t hampered by the issue of UK content.

farouk
farouk
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

The JF 17 is fitted with the Martin-Baker Mk-16LE zero zero ejection seat

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  farouk

JF-17 is offered with two ejection seat options the Martin Baker PK16LE a derivative of the MK16 is one. The other is the domestically produced AVIC TY-5B zero zero ejection seat. The JF-17 prototypes and early examples delivered to Pakistan were fitted with the TY-5B and the examples exported to Myanmar.

Farouk
Farouk
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

Yes the J17 does come with 2 ejector seats, but the ones the Pakistani build all come with the MB, in contrast the Chinese built ones can be fitted with their own EJ, the article states that Pakistan is going to supply Argentina.

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Doesn’t mean the jet can’t be supplied with the AVIC seat if that enables the sale, Pakistan did operate the JF-17 with the Chinese seat prior to adoption of the PK16LE. It would be absurd for them to not offer it as an option on Pakistan built examples.

Farouk
Farouk
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

Did is the optimum word, they replaced the Chinese one with the MB one.

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

For their own domestic use, again the JF-17 is offered with two seat options and it would be ABSURD for Pakistan to prevent a potential sale because the AVIC seat is requested by the customer.

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  farouk

won’t need an injection seat, Never get off the ground UK will cut its Aid to Pakistan.
if they supply Arms to the Tinnies

Ahsan
Ahsan
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Pakistan is not dependent on any aid from UK.

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Ahsan

The UK gives Pakistan hundreds of millions, to help its homeless starving children…same with India.

Ali
Ali
23 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Uk has lost its influence on Pakistan.if they block aid they will lose military assistance in the region. Uk has a lot more to lose there mate. No wonder they all were begging pakistan to help in Afghanistan. Last week Dominic Raab visited pakistan and litterally beg pakistan to get their citizens out of Pakistan. No wonder Pakistan is out of red list.

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  Ali

Ali and Capri different avatar same troll as same spelling errors and comment style! So easy to spot a sad troll.

Ali
Ali
21 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

I can understand your frustation but that is how it is now. The world is changing different people will be ruling unlike current ones. So get use to it

Airborne
Airborne
20 days ago
Reply to  Ali

Yaaaaawn, sorry did you reply, your not even very good at trolling, please you must make more of an effort.

Ali
Ali
20 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

I am not good at trolling yes you are right. I am not troling just talking facts. May be you dont want to know the facts. Like a pigeon who closes his eyes than assume no one is watching him.

Airborne
Airborne
20 days ago
Reply to  Ali

WTF was that’s analogy supposed to mean ha ha a ha ha! When trolling on different avatars maybe try to change your spelling errors and style. Very sad.

Ali
Ali
20 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

You are acting like a penguin now

Airborne
Airborne
20 days ago
Reply to  Ali

Wow the bot troll is now struggling!

Capro
Capro
23 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Unlike India Pakistan don’t rely on aid and I don’t think Uk will ever dare to do that and Uk knows why 😉

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Capro

Why? Pakistan is a shithole of a country..everyone knows that, it’s the starving homeless children I feel sorry for… Pakistan has millions… shame on you..

Airborne
Airborne
20 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Even that ultimate peace lover Ghandi wanted the nonces to fuck off out of India and create their own shit hole to wallow in!

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yep exactly lol

BB85
BB85
24 days ago

I’m surprised China hasn’t offered them large subsidies and military aid in return for beef exports.
Although I don’t think Argentina have any interest in beefing up their military after decades of military dictatorship. But it should be noted China could supply them with credible resources to retake the Fakwlands in the not to distant future if it wanted to.

Last edited 24 days ago by BB85
Daveyb
Daveyb
24 days ago
Reply to  BB85

They have sought of. The Chinese now have or are in the process of getting fishing licences from Argentina. Beef will also be another major export along with crops. I think it was last month that their Foreign Ministers had a meeting to discuss trade. I guess this was part of the deal. I’d expect Argentina to announce they are acquiring other Chinese military equipment in the very near future, probably a couple of corvettes. In the past Argentina have reneged on pretty much every loan repayment. Thus most Countries wouldn’t lend them money. I’m not sure its wise to… Read more »

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

The Chinese tend to accept land reparations for failed payments let’s hope they don’t include the Falklands

Mohammed Mir
Mohammed Mir
24 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I think that is correct and why not

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Please see the results of 10 years of training and supplying of top-rated kit to the Afghan Fighting Force. China could supply all the weapons Argentina wanted.

but their Army is now one of the worse trained in the world. and would more likely rob their local supermarket than go to war.

Farouk
Farouk
24 days ago
Reply to  BB85

Argentina has sold China huge areas for food production . As for Argentina taking (Not retaking) the Islands, the Islands are in a much better position now than they were in 1982.In 1982, Argentina had a powerful and well equipped military and they lost big time, today that isn’t the case, yes they could carry out pin prick attacks, but a major invasion I doubt it.

Faisal
Faisal
24 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

You would be surprised how much they could do.

David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago
Reply to  Faisal

No no-one would be surprised. Except you !

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  Faisal

no, we wouldn’t, chucking bombs out of 737 won’t work this time. as they have no Air Transport, and Navy is errrrrrrr Sunk in the Harbour

Faisal Bajwa
Faisal Bajwa
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

No South American country will refuel British warships. Without that Malvives is sunk.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
22 days ago
Reply to  Faisal Bajwa

We dont need refuelling by any South American country. The Royal Navy has the Royal fleet auxillary for that purpose. Wave class, Tide class RFA can easily support a carrier task group should Argentina even with Chinese invokvement attempt anything against the British overseas territory of The Falkland Islands.

Airborne
Airborne
21 days ago
Reply to  Faisal Bajwa

Troll time on this story, same troll, different avatars, sad.

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Faisal Bajwa

Britain also had other islands in the Atlantic, accension is a key island.

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Hercules ramp down bombs gone 82 !!!! Ramp down political prisoners gone prior to 82

David Steeper
David Steeper
23 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Ouch harsh but true.

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Can’t beat around the Bush

Airborne
Airborne
23 days ago
Reply to  Faisal

Nope, no we wouldn’t. They are currently in the worst state they have ever been and are incapable of any sort of offensive military action.

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Faisal

The British built a huge new base on the Falklands after the war, new airbase, new anti air missile stationed…The garrison n the Falklands alone could protect an Argentinian invasion.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
24 days ago
Reply to  BB85

I think the operation of 2 QE class carriers, astute class subs, type 45 destroyers would prevent any Falklands invasion. Argentina would have to massively expand their military with 1st world order kit to succeed. Such an expansion would be obvious and offset by an increased defence posture on the islands. I think the best the Argentinians could attempt would be some sort of spoiling event or to temporarily capture some of the islands to increase public support back in Argentina or to get international allies to aid them with direct military support against the “colonial power” which is all… Read more »

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

The Garrison on the Falklands is more than enough to protect the Region.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
24 days ago

Curious to hear the US made an offer? That seems…strange.

Might be prudent to consider moving more Typhoons to the Falklands? That’s super etendards and now JF-17s that Argentina have acquired

Wilhelm Beller
Wilhelm Beller
24 days ago

Last I checked their Super Etendards had been retired and 12 JF-17s aren’t a real threat to the jets and Air defence already on the islands.

Also the Argentine navy doesn’t really have the capability to deploy forces en mass to the Falkland islands or really anywhere anymore.

This is a great video on the topic, even though it’s a bit out of date.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
24 days ago
Reply to  Wilhelm Beller

They received replacement Super Etendards from France two to three years ago

Wilhelm Beller
Wilhelm Beller
24 days ago

At least according to Wiki they are no longer in service, but it’s interesting to know 🙂
I’d be curious to see what the actual answer is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Air_Force#Current_Inventory

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Wilhelm Beller

I suppose we should always expect they are still flying.

JOHNT
JOHNT
24 days ago
Reply to  Wilhelm Beller

The Super Etendards are Navy not Air Force aircraft but they are currently listed as non-operational. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Naval_Aviation#Naval_aircraft_inventory

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago

They couldn’t get spares to recommission the Martin Baker ejection seats fitted to those Super Etendard.

Johan
Johan
24 days ago

they received OLD retired S Es retired from the Navy, plan was to upgrade their fleets using there’s and the retired french. put parts dont carry over, even the newer engines dont fit.

James
James
24 days ago

Also curious as to what exactly the US was offering or intended to offer?

Certainly wouldnt have gone down too well in the ‘special’ relationship.

AlexS
AlexS
23 days ago
Reply to  James

US priority is to stifle China everywhere.

James
James
23 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

True, US priorities overrule everything else I suppose.

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago
Reply to  James

They offered 8.5 f16 front canopy’s, 7 wings, 9 half built engines, and 13 wheels.

A huge upgrade for Argentina.

James
James
20 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Lol, did Argentina accept the deal initially!?

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  James

They wanted 16 wheels not 13 and an extra two wings but usa wouldn’t budge so they pulled out! On the bright side Argentina just bought 3 Cessna wings and 2 Cessna air frames for £79.50 and are hoping to get the Air Force back up and running once they find another wing on eBay! They spent their whole budget so they now have to crowd fund for a new Jerry can as the other one got ran over! But once crowd fundings sorted they can steal fuel from passenger planes again to refuel the Airforce and sell to feed… Read more »

Last edited 19 days ago by Reaper
Daveyb
Daveyb
24 days ago

The US were offering F16s, in the hope that they wouldn’t turn to the Russians or Chinese. Umm….

Kizzy p
23 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Maybe better they have F16s ….Then if the Argentinians start sabre rattling again the U.S can withold parts etc ……grounded . Cant do that with the JF-17??

Johan
Johan
24 days ago

Super Es are ex-French retired Airframes, with lower hours than their own, they were going to cannibalize the fleet to put airframes in the air. but the lack of spares and mismatched parts. Supa Es was good 40 years ago. But won’t get near a Typhoon and as soon as they take off, would be watched. and fire what

Reaper
Reaper
20 days ago

I think the yanks offered 6 main f16 fuselages minus 5 wings and 7 half built engines to Argentina, and that was an upgrade to what they currently have, so it was really nice of the yanks and a fair offer.

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago

Before anyone starts saying “what about the Martin Baker Ejection Seat”. The JF-17 is offered with a Chinese domestically built AVIC TY-5B zero-zero ejection seat. The AVIC seat is fitted to CAC built jets and the FC-1/JF-17 prototypes including those delivered to Pakistan were fitted with that seat. Pakistan switched to the MB PK16 after the type was adopted for service. In operation and design it is very similar to a Martin Baker MK10 and AVIC have admitted its design benefitted from technology transfer in the 80’s from Martin Baker.

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

They pinched it in less polite terms.

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No actually in this case probably not pinched, there was significant tech transfer with China in the 80s and Martin Baker played a part in that exercise. It is for the same reason that China produces a RR Spey derivative in the form of the WS-9

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

How’s China not embarrassed with all the blatant Copy anc pasting of everything!, from knock of Blackhawks and Land rovers and RR to Apple phones. Just look at a chinese millitary parade with rip off guns, cloths, humvees and MAN trucks! And Anything they build not to western standards sucks. Granted they are getting better but they still copy most things, how don’t they get embarrassed and lose face, any other nation would. China is a joke of a country. Why we put up with their shit is beyond me. look at wuhan lab, they partnered with the French but… Read more »

expat
expat
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

I wouldn’t say everything they don’t copy is junk. They don’t just reverse engineer.

They stole TB of data on the F35 and were even dialled into conference calls between partner companies during its development. They essentially closed the gap and in places overtaken us (the west) on 50 years worth of RnD. Sadly money has trumped common sense and we pretty much handed over IP to get a position in country, too afraid to loose a piece of pie and only now are we waking up to what this is costing us.

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  expat

Really, China has over taken the west in stealth tech?, also I heard indians who have flew along side china’s “stealth jets” like j20 they say that they aren’t so stealthy. And Experts point out glaring faults with Chinese stealth jets like the j20, the canards suposedly would cancel out any stealth it thought it had! And China can’t build a good jet engine apparently never mind a next gen modern one, they still build Russian knock offs… Money talks sadly even if it’s corrupt Chinese money. And the west really needs to stop selling so many big businesses and… Read more »

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

It’s certainly true that canards are a terrible device on a stealthy aircraft indeed Typhoon pilots have strict instructions on their settings when in high risk environments to reduce their radar signature. Also true that China is having serious problems with engine development which has so far reportedly stopped the J20 reaching its design performance and left them desperately trying to get hold of superior Russian engines though Russia, despite their public pronouncements of friendship and cooperation is understandably reluctant to supply them.

Last edited 24 days ago by Spyinthesky
Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

what would China be like without western tech…

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

There’d be in their Paddy fields without Wellington boots

Expat
Expat
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

I was using the F35 as an example of how China has hacked our IP. Parts of the F117 downed iby Serbia ended up in China, they took parts from the stealth helicopter used in the Bin Laden raid and probably had full access to the RQ170 drone that went down in Iran. There’s also suspicions that the Chinese helped bring it down. They are probably not ahead on stealth but their efforts go well beyond creating poor quality knockoffs. Areas like hypersonics the the US admits its falling behind China and Russia. The point is, don’t underestimate them. I… Read more »

Fedaykin
Fedaykin
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

They have very different cultural attitudes to intellectual property rights in China. They also have a strong “let’s not reinvent the wheel” attitude to technology and their defence needs. Also technology that at face value looks to be a slavish copy will often be very different under the skin, their defence electronics sector is in particular capable of cutting edge R&D.

Faisal
Faisal
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Copying? The Americans copied the Russians

MR J L NEVETT
MR J L NEVETT
24 days ago
Reply to  Faisal

& the Russians copied us.

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Faisal

The Labour government of 1945 gave Stalin a Rolls Royce jet engine the Rosenbergs gave Stalin secrets for the Bomb

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

The first rule of communism “If at first you don’t succeed Cheat ‘ and thats true with both China and the then Soviets ie the AK 47 copied from Germany as was the RPG China is only good at copying without Licence

John Clark
John Clark
23 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

AK-47 copied from Germany Tommo, in what way??

Reaper
Reaper
22 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

I heard that, and if m right they did look a bit similar too.

Fahey
Fahey
21 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

In Chinese Culture copying an established Master is a source of pride. The better/closer you copy him the better you are.

Clive Scott
Clive Scott
22 days ago
Reply to  Fedaykin

My Dad worked for Martin Baker for at least 35 years. He came home one day with a sequence of photos of an American pilot ejecting from a carrier. He was proud that his work had saved so many lives.

geoffi
geoffi
24 days ago

Well, this has been on the cards. Its been obvious for a while that China has been itching to engage in sub-threshold warfare over the Falklands…

Jack
Jack
24 days ago
Reply to  geoffi

Well if the UK wants to help Australia acquire/operate nuclear subs then we should expect retaliatory measures.

OldSchool
OldSchool
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

!!!

Last edited 24 days ago by OldSchool
Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

Theres not a huge difference in weapons comparing conventional and nuclaer atack Submarines so why would the Chinese be that bothered, But Does the Ozzie Collins class hold tomahawks? Their new nuclear atacks will so that should annoy China. And I think the Ozzies should go for VLS on their new subs.

China would sell its grandmother to anyone if it was making money to mate, not everything’s got sinister motives.

Daveyb
Daveyb
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

As GB and Deep32 would attest, the main issue is range and speed. An AIP boat will need to run diesels every now, so it will need to snorkel and slow down near the surface. Whereas a nuke will stay at depth and just plough on at cruise speed. That’s the main difference between the boats. Although an AIP can be quieter than a nuke it doesn’t have the same patrol range. Which is why the Chises are unhappy. By having a nuke boat the RAN can sail easily within the disputed SCS. Yep, the Australian PM announced the subs… Read more »

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Read a Comparison yesterday the differences are stark, the OZ diesel boats despite being state of the art for the type, would have had around a max 11 day mission endurance while a nuclear alternative can operate for around 77 days on station. Equally while the cost of the 12 non nuclear Barracudas had risen to $70 billion, the French were claiming 6 nuclear versions for theirselves were to come in at $10b. You can see why they jumped ship, 8 nuclear boats will be exponentially more effective than 12 non nuclear as things stand while with China’s long term… Read more »

Deep32
Deep32
24 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

As Daveyb alludes to above, the difference is speed, a SSN can leap 600+ nm in a day, a SSK can manage about 230ish, on the surface(not exactly stealthy), less if dived, even though they have a higher speed dived – they burn through the battery capacity quicker, having to come to PD to recharge the battery, which takes more time then the time to drain it. If you have long distances to transit before you reach your patrol area, a SSN wins every time, which is probably what your quoted figures reflect. If we had both SSNs and SSKs… Read more »

Sean
Sean
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

It’ll be interesting to see if the RAN opt for vertical launch tubes for their Tomahawks (as per the USN) or whether they go for torpedo-tube launch (as per RN).

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Yeah it’ll be interesting. What other missiles can be fired from a Sub VLS? Long range Anti ship missiles ect? Anti balistic?

Also Is there torpedo launched Anti ship missiles? that Astutes could use?

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Interesting indeed and as I refer to above there seems to be some pressure inside the US to abandon vertical launch tubes and concentrate new SSNs on torpedo tube launched weapons which seems strange to me as I would have presumed big advantages and flexibility from vertical launch. But I guess there are compromises too for a hunter killer as specialising in that role was expressed as a big part of the reasoning though little further enlightenment was given. Don’t know if that was the reason why VLS wasn’t included on Astutes the RN does like to specialise after all.… Read more »

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Yes there is torpedo-launched anti-ship missiles, they are called “torpedos”

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

Yes Tony, but I’m on about an anti Ship MISSILE, with superior Range.

Latch71
Latch71
23 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Superior range yes, but vulnerable to being shot down. Hard to shoot down a torpedo…..

Rea
Rea
22 days ago
Reply to  Latch71

There is the anti torpedo Torpedo, the yanks used to have them on their carriers, not sure if they still do. I Wonder if the RN has ever had anti torpedo Torpedoes.

Reaper
Reaper
22 days ago
Reply to  Latch71

There is the anti torpedo Torpedo, the yanks used to have them on their carriers, not sure if they still do. I Wonder if the RN has ever had anti torpedo Torpedoes.

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Sean

If they go for VLTs the Chinese will cry SSBNs that should upset them

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Interesting about the VLS I had tended to think we were short sighted in not including them on Astute like the US and French have done, seems to offer more flexibility and I had concerns that tube launched Tomahawks will be one obsolete and few new weapons become available to them in the future. I thought the logic and the future was clear. Then yesterday I read that as the US goes through the design process for it’s new attack subs to eventually replace the Virginia class boats, there is strong pressure to specialise as sub killers, dump the VLS… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

Would love it if they (Australia) ordered 10 astute class. Which just happen to be the best nuclear attack subs in the world.

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Astutes with VLS…Perfection ♥️

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
24 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

And maybe the RN could get an extra 1-3 Asute subs too…if it’s replacements are still a way off. Even plus a small fleet of 4 diesels for more regional ops.

David Steeper
David Steeper
23 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Should never have sold the Upholders. But that boat has sailed.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

I doubt that the deal was put together in 48 hours somehow. This is a long held Chinese policy and South America is the third wave after SE Asia and Africa in being put under Chinese economic hegemony. The Falklands no doubt will become a useful if tiny useful tool in achieving their aims of surrounding the US and Europe indeed, with pro Chinese sympathies even if they are effectively achieved through implied threats and economic and political reliance. Unlikely they would do anything overt with the Falklands mind as it could be an Achilles heel for them as it… Read more »

Last edited 24 days ago by Spyinthesky
David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Apparently the Aussies brought it up with Adm Radakin when he was over there I think in March. UK and Oz approached US and it snowballed from there. The top level discussions were at G7 in Cornwall.

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  geoffi

I want China to Arm Argentina!, then that Might help save the British Millitary. Just like how the falklnds saved a chunk of the British Fleet.

Sean
Sean
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

That’s akin to wanting Germany to rearm in the 1930’s in the hope the U.K. would abandon the Washington Treaty on warships 🤦‍♂️

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Sean

It’s not so dumb, Argentina wouldn’t invade again even if it had the means, but the threat being there keeps the UK on her toes and helps keep our millitary a credible force down there and at home, but sadly much of that is eroding away now…

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Exactly the first thing we did in 82 when Argentina raised the Flag in South Georgia was Boycott Corned Beef that would put them in their place 😳😀🤔😉🙄

Reaper
Reaper
23 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

What was the second thing?😆

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Laughed at the Sun’s front cover “UP YER JUNTA ” then dallied around until April 4th when Maggie said to Sandy “Sail south Sandy” and the rest is History

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

The Second thing was laughed at the Sun headlines like “UP YER JUNTA” then got ready for the Cricket, season , Then on April 4th Maggie told Sandy to Sail South ,then Sandy told us to Sail South and the rest is History The Sun’s Headline Don’t Cry For Me Argentina didn’t get to read that until the first mail RAS

Sean
Sean
24 days ago
Reply to  geoffi

Chinese fishing fleets are having to fish further and further from home shores as they empty the sea with their industrial hoovering-up of all fish stock. The South Atlantic will definitely be a target for them, but Britain’s defence of the Falkland Islands waters could be an issue for them.

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Sean

What about all the other huge areas of ocean, like south Georgia and our ant arctic territory…Pitcairn?

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
24 days ago
Reply to  Sean

You’re a bit out of date, the Chinese fishing fleets are already operating off and in some cases poaching squid from Argentinian waters. The Argentinians sank a Chinese fishing boat that took actions risking collision between the vessels when it was failing to stop after being caught fishing illegally. Do a web search for Chinese fishing boats off Argentina and you will see them all lined up along the EEZ, going “dark”, etc.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35815444

Sean
Sean
24 days ago

Well I predicted that years ago, but it’s no satisfaction to hear it’s already happening. The future will see increased competition for resources, partly due to population growth but predominantly due to climate-change, and the Chinese will be the most aggressive – including militarily. They aren’t building a blue water navy so they can hold impressive naval regattas.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
22 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The western allies need to be match fit and combat ready to face China in the 2030s. That is rhe forecasted time when China could develop enough military force locally to overmatch US and allies. The Chinese are adding the equivalent of the entire French or Royal Navy to their order of battle every 3-4 years. Our response….lethargic and reduced type 26 frigate order. Type 31 barely begun construction. Type 45 power issue still needing resolving. Type 45s not yet fitted with strike vls despite having space and top weight allowance for that arnament. Inadequate F35B order. Typhoon needing another… Read more »

Sean
Sean
22 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I’ll take that bet, if you want to put the money up, that the U.K. DOES NOT gift Astute’s 6 & 7 to Australia. Your pessimism is ignoring the fact that the Australians are committed to building their submarines domestically and that they haven’t chosen a design yet. (Though my money would be on a revised Astute build, with an X-tail plane arrangement and the reactor from the Dreadnought class. Reactor built and shipped to Australia as a sealed unit. Possibly US combat systems added, etc.) As for the your fantasy military shopping list. The Defence Budget would need to… Read more »

Reaper
Reaper
22 days ago

The Chinese fishing fleet is global now.. there’s not a sea they aren’t industrialy fishing.

Paul.P
Paul.P
24 days ago
Reply to  geoffi

What China wants is food to feed its population.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

And we really aren’t giving any real thought to the implications for us here. As a Country that can produce about half the food it needs one has to question where we will get out food from (at least at an affordable price) as vertically every producer will not only be feeding it’s own population but will have virtually all it exports acquired by China in deals we simply will not be able to match. Anyone wondering why China is lending all this money to and investing in all this infrastructure for poor and near bankrupt regimes only needs to… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
24 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Yes, an allotment is a good investment.

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yes Paul not even the Moat at the Tower of London was excempt from being turned into an allotment

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Funny how India don’t seem to have the same issue, with about the same population!

Paul.P
Paul.P
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

India is self sufficient in food production. It is a fertile country with a and climate. Its down to basic geography.
http://www.fao.org/india/fao-in-india/india-at-a-glance/en/

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I’m sure Xinjiang and Tibet might not be the most fertile land in the world (although they seem to be able to grow plenty of cotton in Xinjiang) but China is a pretty fertile country herself…

Paul.P
Paul.P
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

China is working hard and just about holding its own in terms of food security. It has 20% of the world’s population but only 7% of the world’s fertile land. Hence it’s aggressive fishing.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21551079/

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

Cotton doesn’t taste very nice

123
123
22 days ago
Reply to  Tony

India’s food production is only half that of China. China mainly imports soybeans to feed their animal husbandry. China is completely self-sufficient in wheat, and rice can even be exported

Jimmy
Jimmy
24 days ago

Great choice, one of the best versatile vfm fighter jets around.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
24 days ago

I’ll believe it when I see it. Every previous deal has fallen apart when it comes to “where are the $$$$$” Argentina doesn’t have any of those currently and inflation is running at about 32% per month. Nobody will lend Argentina any money as it has a delinquent credit rating. Stuff like this would not trouble Land Ceptor or Astor or the Typhoons so why get excited? Super Etendards may have been a worry in ’82 but they are decades out of date and easy meat for modern AAW systems. Argentina has close to zero navy compared to ’82. Nothing… Read more »

Dern
Dern
24 days ago

BUT IT’S FUN TO FREAK OUT ABOUT ARGENTINA!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Indeed this has no immediate concern, but if it is a sign at all then it might just be pointing to an eventual scenario of concern that would be a generation or so away before it is there to see.

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Yes it is fun! But seriously, agreed with Supportive Bloke, the four Typhoons on the Falklands loaded with Meteors could probably see off all 12 JF-17s without breaking a sweat, they know it and we know it, so it’s really a non-issue.

David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

Spot on.

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Dern

That’s because I was there look at my email address

Meirion x
Meirion x
24 days ago

“Pakistan has voted in favor of the UN Resolution stipulating that “the continued
existence of colonialism is incompatible with the ideal of universal peace held by the United Nations””

And more hypocrisy again from Pakistan, with them retaining the Pashtun Homelands, which should be part of Afghanistan.
And of cause, Balochistan should be a nation in its own right!

Last edited 24 days ago by Meirion x
Omar
Omar
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Maybe sindh should another country too, punjab as well. There are more pushtuns in Pakistan than there are in Afghanistan, these tribes choose to be part of Pakistan, these tribes fought voluntarily for Pakistan in the wars following the partition, so with that said Afghanistan should be part of Pakistan, dont you think? As for Baluchistan, India, and soviets tried in the early days to fuel separatists elements, Soviets were taken care of, but india continues, kulbhshan yadhav, a serving indian officer was caught and admitted to terror financing, (india admitted he was an indian officer), then came the US,… Read more »

David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago
Reply to  Omar

Outside states fuelling terror groups in Pakistan. What’s that feel like ? But if I were you I’d be more worried about Iran ! But don’t worry you won’t get anything you don’t deserve.

JR
JR
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Would the US come to our aid in the falklands if it kicked off. Like we did with them post 911?

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  JR

Yes of course it would.

simon alexander
simon alexander
24 days ago
Reply to  JR

if china attacked, i was in usa in during the falklands war and there was little outright support for helping britain on the tv channels. usa was fighting communism in south america and not wanting to piss off argentine govt.

Paul42
Paul42
24 days ago

The US quietly provided assistance, the aviation fuel at Ascension Island was pumped from US Tankers offshore, not to mention stocks of AIM 9L Sidewinders for our SHARs. Reagan offered us an Iwo Jim class LPH in the event that either of our carriers were damaged, plus of course all the intelligence quietly fed…..just the tip of a large iceberg…..

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago

Yes if China were exploiting it but no if it weren’t which leaves that grey area in the middle that could get murky.

Last edited 24 days ago by Spyinthesky
Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago

Great is Col Oliver North still available

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  JR

Ascension Island airbase is a joint American/British base. so would look the other way again.

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

And there was a Beer can Vending machine in the departure lounge or go up the crater bar

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  JR

The Falklands is classed as an overseas territory where as Newyork and Washington mainland USA Nato

expat
expat
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

The real irony is Argentina was itself a colony the colonials sort their own future through independence. The Falklands were uninhabited unlike Argentina at the time the Spanish (and Welsh) started to settle there. UK position is the inhabitants have the right to choose.

Daveyb
Daveyb
24 days ago
Reply to  expat

Still think Argentina should of handed over their half of Patagonia as war reparations. That would have made them squeal!

Marius
Marius
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

What a grand idea, Maggie missed an opportunity! 🙂

Tommo
Tommo
24 days ago
Reply to  Marius

And then handed patagonia over too the Chileans Maggie did miss a trick

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Imagine the steaks we could have been tucking in to!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  expat

Indeed the same irony that the US always argued they were anti colonialist you couldn’t make it up. Not only are they the actual colonialists, the boots on the ground who’s main reason for seeking Independence was because the ‘colonial’ Govt was actually trying to stop or at least control the colonists preventing them from being as colonialist as they actually wanted to be in exploiting this great new continent opened up by the British army saving them from the French in the 12 years war that in North America the colonialists actually started and we’re then losing. Oh and… Read more »

Frank62
Frank62
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

The PRC is a colonial power. Ask Tibet, the Uighurs, or all the nations being gazzumped in the SCS. Empire building is their goal, hence the belt & road program & massive military expansion. Argentina is a colonial construct too. Tried exterminating Patagonians in the late C19th. We’ve spent the last 70+ years giving back our long past empire to its own peoples. When’s the last time China restored sovereignty to anybody they ruled?

Something Different
Something Different
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Article five doesn’t apply to the Falklands

Last edited 24 days ago by Something Different
David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago

If it was American it would.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

No limit to hypocrisy, Pakistan itself only exists due to colonialism be it from pre British conquest creating the ground work to Britain controversially chopping it out of India. That’s why it’s claims in Kashmir are ridiculous it’s akin to Northern Ireland claiming bits of Eire. India may tolerate but never accepted the dissection of its land. As for Argentina it itself is just a colonial construct the people talking about colonialism and certainly those in control are themselves greatly the colonialists be they of Spanish or Italian origin. After independence these colonialists then expanded their empire into the south… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

they must be referring to China :”the continued
existence of colonialism is incompatible with the ideal of universal peace held by the United Nations””

Jimmy
Jimmy
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Talking nonsense, if you go by that criteria, the world should be completely reconstituted.

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

The issue Pakistan will face is as soon as this try to get agreed, UK Will cut all foreign aid to Pakistan, as they’re not going to give Aid Money to a country supplying Arms to a country on an embargo.

Abdul Rehman
Abdul Rehman
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

lols and how much aid Britian is giving us some million dollar. Your colonial mind set need to upgrade especially after living Afghanistan when your ministers were requesting support from Pakistan. This century belongs to Asia not any butcher anglo saxon nation. Most of the aid is for Afghan refugees and world food program.
Pakistan is part of BRI and we don’t care about whatever the west thinks. The geopolitics of the region are pretty much changed.

Airborne
Airborne
23 days ago
Reply to  Abdul Rehman

“Not any butcher Anglo Saxon national ” oh dear you do seem quite angry, rude and nationalistic. Calm the racist terminolgy down pal.

Damo
Damo
24 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Of course Argentina is loved by Pakistanis hahahaha don’t talk nonsense

Abdul Rehman
Abdul Rehman
24 days ago
Reply to  Damo

so, you know Pakistan better than on. We export 80 percent of the world handmade football and most of them goes to Latin America. You guys seems pro india and racists towards Pakistan. So, i don’t think i need to discuss with colonial minds.

Airborne
Airborne
23 days ago
Reply to  Abdul Rehman

Two more abusive, childish and offensive comments. Time fo flag you up fellah.

Abdul Rehman
Abdul Rehman
23 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

lols. i am not a western power who use to left when find some resistance. so stay calm i don’t care what you guys think, as most of you guys have very limited knowledge about today’s geopolitics. Some times i really enjoy the level of your know how.

Airborne
Airborne
23 days ago
Reply to  Abdul Rehman

You don’t care what we think, so much so you reply to our posts trying to justify your silliness and stupidity. Your still a sad racist, using silly out of date terminology which only uneducated, weak and boring people use. Grow up son.

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Abdul Rehman

Actually dumbass, the uk has the third most Global influence after usa and China, the UK is a global power iNDIA and pakistan are regional powers, the uk is the second most influential soft power on earth after usa. The uk knows all about world affairs,

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Airborne

Auck I was enjoying him making a fool of himself.,

AHFZ
AHFZ
23 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

What about Scotland?

Jack
Jack
24 days ago

Argentina supports the idea of self determination ? Oh the irony. “Malvinas Argentinas” my little donkey 😂

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

That’s almost as bad as the anti fascists who are the actual fascists, or the “anti” racists telling white people they aren’t allowed into black only meetings and groups, that’s Racism lol

Rob
Rob
24 days ago

Why are we not taking a harder line on Pakistan. They obviously backed the Taliban, Bin Laden was found in a hide out in Pakistan’s secret service city and now this? Note to UK FO Pakistan is not our friend. Why are they still in the Commonwealth?

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Why do we still give hundreds of millions in foreign aid yearly to Pakistan when they have their own space program and nuclear missiles.. you can see they have the right priority’s!. And a muslim/Islamist nation holding Nukes is scary, I’m sure USA/UK has an eye on Pakistan at all times.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

US and Pakistan are relative enemies now the US won’t back them any more and they have become puppets to China. India As a result are while still friendly with Russia very much friendlier to the US and the West these days, this really is like an episode of soap. Pakistan I think is being kept ‘ close’ by Britain because in that old adage keep your friends close keep your enemies closer. I think we are just trying to keep them from totally going over to the dark side I don’t see it succeeding long term mind as that… Read more »

David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Your an optimist about UK and Pakistan. I’m inclined to think it’s because the F.O. are clueless.

Damo
Damo
24 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Nah. The foreign office clueless? Come on…

Bringer of Facts
Bringer of Facts
24 days ago

Damn, that puts Argentina back in the game should they ever want to try a rematch over the Falklands.

David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago

Joke ?

JR
JR
24 days ago

The JF17 is I think an excellent fighter considering its cost. It reminds me of the F20. I would say in terms of capability it sits under the Gripen and latest block F16s, but certainly no match for the Typhoon. But a serious leap in capability compared to Mirages and thier deriatives. It seems like credible choice and a step towards a heavier fighter, such as the J11

Sean
Sean
24 days ago

No it doesn’t

JR
JR
24 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Thanks for your informative response. Yes perhaps you are right, they should keep using Pampas and then transition to 4++ type fighters. It works for no other air force, but it might work for them

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  JR

I think their point is that even though great for the money (and even then who knows what weapons they will be sticking on them) realistically these things are no match for the small Typhoon squadron at Mount Pleasant, let alone if a single T45 wandered down. And not sure hows it’s a step towards a heavier fighter, I don’t imagine Argentina can even afford these let alone the next step!

Last edited 24 days ago by Tony
john
john
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

The interesting thing here seems to assume weapons somehow win wars, if that is the only element then why did US, UK, NATO etc still lost in afghanistan after 20 years with all the advanced weapons and prior to that russia lost in the same land.

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  john

We didn’t lose the war we pulled out. And if it was a war where everything was in the table the taliban would have been destroyed along with most of Afghanistan, only thing is there’s a constant stream from pakistan.

Sean
Sean
24 days ago
Reply to  JR

Buying some second rate 4th generation fighters doesn’t put Argentine “back in the game” for the Falklands. You’re conveniently forgetting they’d need frigates, troop transports, landing craft, armoured vehicles, air-defences, etc etc etc.

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Sean

And by far the most important thing that they don’t have, some big ass balls…

Andy a
Andy a
24 days ago

So bearing in mind the typhoon is far better they would still have us outgunned 12 to 1.
Patrol river class no problem
Also I bet they are good enough to avoid the air defences as we have ripped out rapier and the new system isn’t in yet???

Stephen Davis
Stephen Davis
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

Time to divert foreign aid to Pakistan to air defence of the Falklands I think. If China and Pakistan are serious about supporting Argentine’s military ambitions we have a problem looming I think.

David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

Huh ! How’d they get there ? Canoe ? Balloon?

David
David
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

There are 4 Typhoons stationed on the Falklands, so it would be 3:1. Not to be cocky or arrogant but it would be hard to see how the JF17s would survive a Typhoon/Meteor combination at BVR….

Andy a
Andy a
24 days ago
Reply to  David

Pl15 and pl21 I believe out range the meteor, fit this platform and are comparable in speed and quality according to US military

GlynH
GlynH
22 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

Not necessarily, MBDA are notorious for quoting the minimum guaranteed ranges of their weapons while China tends to quote the maximum theoretical range. Differing political motives there, the former playing it coy, the latter trying to intimidate.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

Andy a full air intercept typhoon load out might be 4 to 8 medium range AA missiles and 4 to 8 more short range AA missiles plus a canon for dogfight. Typhoon is the worlds best dogfighter platform at close range. Typhoon wouldnt close to close range meteor/ Amraam kill from +30 miles away vs J17. So the 4 Eurofighters on falklands currently could wipe away these 12 jets with extreme ease

Andy a
Andy a
24 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Really I believe china has missles that fit their own j17’s that have a 200-400km range. There missles are one area experts say they have excelled. We can no longer in the west assume technology will win out over numbers as in the past

Reaper
Reaper
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

What missiles can shoot down those Chinese ones? Do our jets carry any? Or is it just decoys for missile defence.

Tony
Tony
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

How are they getting the fuel for a 400km range on a small air to air missile?!

Deep32
Deep32
24 days ago
Reply to  Tony

They are not small missiles like say our Asraam.
4.5 m long, 40ish cm wide and weigh in at some ,600kg, so not really small.
Range is dependent on flight profile of missile, and they are fitted with a booster motor to increase range. Nothing technically clever, just a big bit of kit.

DaveyB
DaveyB
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

Calm down, calm down! The PL15 is comparable to AMRAAM, whilst the PL21 is primarily designed for high value targets like an AWACS or tankers. To use these missiles first you must detect the target. As Argentina do not have an AEW type of aircraft. This means they must rely on the JF17’s radar or electronic surveillance measures (ESM). Unfortunately, the nose diameter of the JF17 is similar to the F16’s. This then dictates the diameter of the radar. The radar’s diameter is one of the factors that dictates the effective radiated power of the radar. Now compare the nose… Read more »

Andy a
Andy a
24 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Comparable to amraam we hope, plus at least 30% longer range

123
123
22 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Typhoon didn‘t have AESA radar but jf17 has. AESA radar has certain advantages over Doppler radar

DaveyB
DaveyB
21 days ago
Reply to  123

The standard Captor-M radar has a distinct detection range advantage over the AESA radar fitted to the JF-17. It is purely down to the effective radiated power (ERP) and receiver sensitivity that a much larger antenna cross sectional area (CSA) gives you over a smaller one. The other factor is that both aircraft will have a radar cross section of around 1m3. So the person who can detect the other first will be determined by the radar detecting the other first. AESA does have significant advantages over an “old fashioned” Pulse Doppler radar, especially when it comes to low probability… Read more »

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

Chiba was all about numbers and screw the accuracy or effectiveness, now they have numbers and accuracy and effectiveness.. scary.

David
David
24 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I agree Mr Bell 100%. In addition, our pilots are much better trained than their opponents.

Steve R
Steve R
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

They won’t outnumber the Typhoons 12-1. Even if they threw all 12 at the Falklands it would be 3-1. Even then it’s not much of a threat.

The only chance they would have is if our pilots felt particularly sporting and sent up a single Typhoon. Even then the JF-17s wouldn’t have much of a chance until the Typhoon runs out of missiles.

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  Andy a

there are 4 typhoons @ the Falklands 2 on Alert. 2 others so pretty sure the Brillcream boys would have a Turkey and Shoot

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
24 days ago

The United Kingdom gives Pakistan foreign aid. Pakistan is not a friendly power and has not been for years. When Pakistan said it would recognise northern Cyprus, the first country to take this step, the internationally recognised legitimate government of unoccupied Cyprus said it would recognise Balochistan, a province of Pakistan that wishes for independence. The Pakistanis had second thoughts and withdrew.

Many
Many
23 days ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

Then what will happen?

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
22 days ago
Reply to  Many

This did happen. Northern Cyprus languishes. My point is one must see matters for what they are; we have been aiding a government in Pakistan that raised up and supports our enemies. I am also very sceptical about sending aid to many countries where the results never seem to match objectives, particularly when some of those objectives are focussed on women’s rights and education. Time to end this folly of ‘soft influence’.

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

If we send foreign aid it shouldn’t be money, but equipment thst we bought in the UK like jcbs and land rivers water pumps ect.

TypewriterMonkey
TypewriterMonkey
24 days ago

This will go down VERY badly with the UK. Expect to see the UK seek closer relations with India because of this.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
24 days ago

We already are

Farouk
Farouk
24 days ago

And this is why I don’t trust Pakistan and why the U.K. should cut all aid to the Islamist country,

Heidfirst
Heidfirst
24 days ago

Hopefully by the time that these are delivered (if they are) Sky Sabre should be up & running & Meteor on a Typhoon will outrange whatever is fitted to the JF-17.

Farouk
Farouk
24 days ago
Reply to  Heidfirst

We have a number of radar station that provide over watch, I know I helped build one.

Steve M
Steve M
24 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

We won’t ever station an E-7 so why not stick a TARS site at MPN ? Don’t think these are much threat unless Argentina get better AAR capability. I don’t know what the status is with the possible KC-390 from Brazil? if they get some of those then maybe!

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Steve M

We should base a couple p8s, or even buy half a dozen old yank Orions for down there.

Steve M
Steve M
19 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

In an ideal world. Like the fleet the Island just needs to be able to see further than the horizon to have better chance of defending itself. Crowsnest is a step but not as good as proper AEW due to altitude/endurance, maybe we should buy some old US Navy E2 for Mpn/Asi/Akt

Reaper
Reaper
19 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Is rapier still there? Or were they based at the radar sites?

Faisal
Faisal
24 days ago

Its a Chinese plane tested by Pakistan

Daveyb
Daveyb
24 days ago

The JF17 is an interesting aircraft. It was designed to replace the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) Mirage III/5s and Chinese Mig 21 copies. It will also replace their F16s to some extent (at least the early Block aircraft), although they may be the first export customer for the Shenyang FC31 aircraft. The aircraft was designed in-house with help from both Russia and China. But, if you look at the aircraft carefully you will see a lot of F16 elements. Pakistan has an agreement with the US on how their F16s are used. They can’t be used offensively and are not… Read more »

David
David
24 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Thank you Daveyb – a very interesting and insightful read. Would Typhoon’s DASS also play an important role in any engagement – esp within visual range against the Darter missile?

DaveyB
DaveyB
24 days ago
Reply to  David

A million dollar question! The Praetorian DASS that the Typhoon uses, has been recently enhanced with the expendable Britecloud RF decoys. These will try to mimic active radars and lead a radar guided missile away. It also has a towed RF decoy if these fail. The aircraft still relies on expendable multi spectrum flares for IR countermeasures. This is where things get complicated. The A-Darter uses a dual band IR sensor. But a lot of the bumf doesn’t refer to it as an imaging infrared (IIR) sensor. However, I have also seen that the sensor is referred to as a… Read more »

David
David
23 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Thank you Daveyb – you clearly know what you are talking about and your note above was a fascinating read. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Sami
Sami
24 days ago

Perfect choice by Argentina. Those Korean jets are only for training purpose while JF-17 is a battle proven combat jet.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
24 days ago

Yawn.

The usual panic over Argentina. How do they invade without taking MPA? Which is well defended, and surrounded by open terrain far inland. We can airlift reinforcements quickly, and any sniff we get of what a coming has an SSN or two down there. And we do have the ability to sniff, be it SIGINT, radio signals, or radar.

China meddling is always one to watch. But an Argie threat to the Falklands? Nope. Not by purchasing 12 Jets.

Shane Hall
Shane Hall
24 days ago

I suspect that while pakistan maybe supplying the jets this is really a chinese move to reduce the number of carriers it will face when it makes its move. Pakistan for its sake has shown its own intentions are for a post usa primacy with its support for the taliban. By supplying argentina i think this makes britain open to a two war scenario which it would either have to reserve assets for or risk failure in one. I say this as it comes after the aussie sub deal and argentina has been sniffing for jf17s before. Next move chinese… Read more »

Last edited 24 days ago by Shane Hall
Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  Shane Hall

OK worse case China funds this deal to supply 12 jets that would probably get shot out the sky by a Hawk T 2, T 1 would probably do a number on them. China then loses its exports to the UK All trade to the UK. Does anyone know the value of trade between China and the UK. they will poke and probe around their homelands? But the Western World is reliant on Chinese production. we kind of fall flat on our arses, even the Germans have allowed them to get deep in their engineering. i know a well know… Read more »

farouk
farouk
24 days ago

Dan,
I went down on a Battlefield Tour in 2014. (Mate of mine was the training WO for his unit and when at the last minute somebody had dropped out, he asked if I could make it, had to ask my OC, but he was happy) All it cost me was to deliver 2 lectures :

Here’s a picture I took from the runway in Stanley

farouk
farouk
24 days ago
Reply to  farouk

and lets try again but reduce the file size from 7MB to 3.5 comment image

Last edited 24 days ago by farouk
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
24 days ago
Reply to  farouk

It has a certain barren beauty to it. You had good weather too.

I take it the Stanley runway is too short for the RAFs assets?

Johan
Johan
24 days ago

Stanley was too short and was used to defend the islands while Mount Plesant was being built.
Phantoms were based out of Stanley after 82.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

That’s right, until MPA was built. I was wondering now? Has it been lengthened in case MPA unavailable? I presume it is used by light ac?

Farouk
Farouk
24 days ago

In 1982, no, my squadron was based on the runway. And it was covered in AM2 matting , which allowed Phantoms to use the Runway. That said they fitted RAGGS to the top of the runway in which to slow down the F4s. On the anniversary of the invasion in 1983. The RAF had a few Buccaneers on the pan. the only problem with the AM2 matting was it shifted and if a Herc came in with its refuelling pipe not reeled in, it would rip up the runway. So the whole squadron would be out to pick up and… Read more »

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
24 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

I was on a T22 during the first anniversary sat in Hamlet patrol area. Some smart arse Phantom pilot thought it would be a good idea to do a low level approach on a T22…We had him detected at max range on R967 (doppler radar loved fast movers!) then locked him up with the 910 tracker at around 20Km and he soon went a lot higher in his approach. Fun times…and yes the Argie planes did come in to tickle the defences as did there surface units . With MPA under construction there where the temp radar sites up and… Read more »

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

3rd and final time for me was 87 for the 5th anniversary number 8s with medal new rig to me Naval Party 2010 Stenna Seaspread what no weapons but did have a Sauna cussie little draft , except I was given 24hr notice that My talents were required down at Mare Harvour Another bloody winter every bloody time

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
23 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Good surf at Mare Harbour …but you oh so need a wet suit!

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Too much ,F ing Kelp had to rescue the Merchant boys so many times when they went out in the Gemunis for jollies Kelp would tangle prop , then they’d try and restart engine in Gear Aaarrg!!!!!!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
24 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Enjoy reading these 1st hand stories. Thanks.

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago

“It’s the way I tell em” Danielle

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
23 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

One L mate. I’m not a girl. 😀

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago

Sorry mate “it’s the,way I,spell em”

Johan
Johan
24 days ago
Reply to  farouk

I Would say i miss it, but when we were Building Mount Pleasant it was never pleasant.
earn lots of money they said, yep there is nothing to spend it on.

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Johan

What about the beer can dispenser vending machine at wideawake and your Dutyfrees clearing customs at Brize was a doodle unless you returned with Argie hardware Hee Hee

Tommo
Tommo
22 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Shacon City, as we called it Shipping containers everywhere with luxury accommodation too boot would probably be short listed by the BBC for Escape to the country hillbilly version

John Hartley
John Hartley
24 days ago

Why does Britain give such large foreign aid to Pakistan? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Dave G
Dave G
24 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

… so the local population, whom the government presumably need some degree of support from in the long term, sees the uk as a friend?

John Hartley
John Hartley
24 days ago
Reply to  Dave G

I heard the rich in Pakistan don’t pay tax as their government gets enough from foreign aid. So Brits on average to low salaries are paying tax, so multi millionaires in Pakistan don’t have to.

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Dave G

Then marry their cousin’s and bring them all over here

Frank62
Frank62
24 days ago

I don’t think Argentina will be in a position to try to take the Falklands for many decades. Pakistan or PRC claiming we’re colonial is rich. Who granted Pakistan their independance? The PRC is a colonial power. Ask Tibet, the Uighurs, or all the nations being gazzumped in the SCS. Empire building is their goal, hence the belt & road program & massive military expansion. Argentina is a colonial construct too. Tried exterminating Patagonians in the late C19th. We’ve spent the last 70+ years giving back our long past empire to its own peoples. When’s the last time China restored… Read more »

Saad Ibrahim Rasheed
Saad Ibrahim Rasheed
24 days ago
Reply to  Frank62

The UK ‘gave’ Pakistan its independence? Talk about colonial mentality. The British Empire dissolved because it saw clearly that it no longer had the resources to maintain its rampantly exploitative chokehold on its colonies. The alternative to independence in the sub-continent was not a continuation of the British Empire, it was Algeria and Vietnam style violent wars for independence which would ultimately, painfully favour the determined locals over foreign empires that had squandered their own strength ravaging one another in two world wars. In this, the British saw the writing on the wall better than the French did. We took… Read more »

Something Different
Something Different
24 days ago

No no no, this won’t do, this represents the worst every threat this country has ever faced, ever, nothing comes close…ever.
We need an additional 4 carriers, 300 F35s, 30 more frigates and destroyers, 20 subs and we need them now! Double the defence budget, triple, nay quadruple it!

Last edited 24 days ago by Something Different
David Steeper
David Steeper
24 days ago

Don’t joke ! !
  :wpds_roll: 

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago

We can only just crew, 2,carriers milenials to busy in their bedrooms on XBOX virtual reality has taken over Real life adventures Now back to my Play,Station ( call sign armchair Admiral)

David
David
24 days ago

JF17???…. Typhoon fodder!

JR
JR
24 days ago
Reply to  David

We should send some Typhoon T2s to the Falklands and offer Argentine pilots joy rides in the back. Give them a taste of fast jet operations and build up relations so they are no longer a ‘threat’.

FM
FM
24 days ago

We have strong civil and military relationship with India which includes cooperation in defence equipment manufacturing and technology transfer. India is an adversary of China and Pakistan, so sale of JF17 a joint development of China and Pakistan to Argentina is not surprising. After Aukus, we will see proliferasion of more sensitive defence technologies like nuclear powered submarines by China to countries like Pakistan, Iran North Korea and Turkey to counter Aukus. If, you arm my adversary, I will arm your adversary. Simple philosophy adopted by China. We will see more arm sales to Argentina by China, directly or indirectly… Read more »

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
24 days ago
Reply to  FM

Agreed. The Chinese already have a base in Argentina

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago

12 pesos for an all you can eat Buffet I bet

Gary
Gary
24 days ago

UKDJ often inspires me to read more. Just read this article. France, America, Belgium & Israel all played games with us.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/falkland-islands/45704/bbc-finds-evidence-french-helped-argentines-sink-our-ships

It’s true your real friends help when you need them the most. Why i’m glad Australia has cancelled its disastrous £48 billion sub deal. They have always been good friends to us at times of need.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
24 days ago
Reply to  Gary

Totally agree. Australia is potentially under threat from Chinese expanionist policies. They need to face down Chinese growing military might. A diesel electric submarine doesnt have the endurance to provide long duration loitering submerged patrols. Just hope UK PLC obtains the nuclear propulsion and sonar and torpedo contracts. Ideally Australia will opt for an Astute derivative hull. France must be smarting as their Barracuda class diesel electric subs were actually initially nuclear propulsion but were redesigned for diesel electric based upon Australia’s requirements for a direct replacement for the Collins class. Do you think to get Australia up and running… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
24 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

French are hopping mad , just saw they’re recalling their ambassador from the USA. Perhaps the lesson for France is not to screw your allies by over pricing your submarines.

Living in NZ, I really admire the Aussies position’s towards China. The AU defence budget is increasing- so really good news.

Deep32
Deep32
24 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

In answer to your question wrt returning our decommissioned subs back to service? NO! they are decommissioned, the fuel rods have been removed along with other bits from the RC, you cant simply put some new ones in and then push the start button!

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
24 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

What nuclear sub reactor control systems are not plug and play? That seems a bit short sighted!

😂

Deep32
Deep32
24 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

It would appear ‘very’ if you read some of the suggestions being voiced on some threads!! I think the obvious answer would be a plug and play Reactor Compartment, over to you RR……..😂😂

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

HMS VIGAL’S ?

Tommo
Tommo
23 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

You can if its Vigil BBC class

Deep32
Deep32
22 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Yeeees!!!

Tommo