The recent announcement that the 8th Type 26 Frigate will be named HMS London has been welcomed by many but the ships motto has left many scratching their heads.

Thirteen ships of the Royal Navy have been named London, after the city of London, the city of course having the motto ‘Domine Dirige Nos’, which means ‘God Guide Us’. This motto was used by some of the previous vessels named after the city.

Despite the MoD suggesting in communication to other commentators that the last three vessels did not have ‘God’ in their mottos and that this motto is a continuation of this trend, after a quick check I have verified that the last three vessels to bear the name HMS London used both ‘Dirige Nos’ and ‘Domine Dirige Nos’ depending on source and time period. The motto of the thirteenth HMS London however is simply ‘Dirige Nos’, which means ‘Guide Us’.

The rise in people having ‘no religion’ (irreligion) was confirmed in the UK’s 2011 census, which saw irreligion rise from 7.7 million in 2001 to 14.1 million, a rise of 10.3 percentage points. According to the 2011 census, 25% of England has no religion, 7% of Northern Ireland, one third in Scotland and one-third of Wales.

According to YouGov, Christianity is perceived to be on the decline. Additionally, Mori Polls have shown that British Christians support a secular state. Britons are amongst the most skeptical about religion, with most people under the age of 25 now identifying as non-religious.

That being said, is this really a good enough reason to change the historical motto of a proud Royal Navy name, a motto taken from a major, global city? Much of the UK Defence Journal team are non-religious too. Religion and history however, are intertwined and to separate them like this seems like an odd move.

The well respected defence commentator Sir Humphrey has discussed this in far greater detail than I at ‘The Thin Pinstriped Line’ website, which can be found here. It’s certainly worth a read.

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Steve Taylor
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Steve Taylor

Jim30 just trots out Main Building bile. Just an apparatchik.

Fedaykin
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Fedaykin

Don’t like what he has to say?

He is pretty much spot on the majority of the time as far as I can make out!

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

He doesn’t think for himself and is high handed Herbert.

Never took to him.

sir Humphrey
Guest

Sorry to disapoint but I dont work for MOD and also the point I make about bout religion is actually pretty critical of the MOD.

Apart from that though your argument is entirely factually correct….

Fedaykin
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Fedaykin

Well considering “GOD” or any other supranational entity doesn’t exist (except Zardoz of course) it would appear to be a sensible facing up to reality.

Won’t stop Daily Mail reading types reving up the Rage bus over this….

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

“Daily Mail types”

What utter hog wash.

Traditionalists you mean.

Fedaykin
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Fedaykin

Daily Mail types, intent of meaning exactly meant as written…

Daily Mail reader Daniele?

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Perhaps you should qualify first if you are a bigot Fedaykin? Because you appear to be.

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

I dislike the Daily Mail and those who tend to read it tend to fit into a certain pattern of thinking. Does that make me a bigot? No more than people who declare their dislike for the Guardian and Lefty loony Guardianistas…

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

LOL. Deary me….

No time for simpleton comments like that sorry.

David Steeper
Guest

Guys. No-one wind up Fedaykin and Steve. As atheists they’re only ever one step away from mass murder. Just like their fellow atheists Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot. Don’t worry guys we’ll pray for you !

Fedaykin
Guest
Fedaykin

I’m not wound up but rather amused by those revving up the rage bus over such a non-issue. FYI I have no problem with ‘God’ being used in the motto even as an Atheist (you guessed correct there) I feel no particular concern about a motto including a reference to something I don’t believe exists. Actually I am more concerned about the revelation that recruits are forced to attend some form of Religious service, for an Atheist that is far more of an issue. As for the tired old reference to mass murder, Religion in all its myriad forms over… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

@David Steeper

Hitler was a christian and he included many pagan and christian religious practices into the nazi party. He was very much religious.

Stalin was a Russian Orthodox. He also continued to practice this faith throughout his life.

Pol Pot was brought up as a Buddhist and then adopted Maoism which is in itself effectively a religion. He only wanted to eliminate standard religion from his country because it could be used as a tool against him. In effect he wanted to be the god. Again this shows he was very much religious.

Skibs
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Skibs

As someone who has served on a fair number of RN vessels, I can safely say most matelots don’t really care about this kind of thing, most couldn’t even tell you the ‘motto’ of the boat. I was on Sceptre for over 9 years straight and would have to Google the bloody motto. Non story peeps.

Callum
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Callum

It’s not specifically the removal of the reference to God that bothers us, it’s the altering of traditions for no real reason. The past 13 ships had the same motto, the City of London itself still uses the same motto, changing this ship’s motto seems pretty pointless.

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

Lee1: Stalin was most certainly not Russian Orthodox. After the Nazis invaded their communist ally, Stalin for a while pretended to traditional beliefs just to buck up morale, but he was a dialectical materialist,i.e.an atheist, to the end. Hitler waffled on religion, he hated Catholicism since it possessed power outside the state. Religious belief is independent from moral behavior, though.

Rob N
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Rob N

Hum….

The fact is that the majority of folk in the UK still beleave in a God. It is not fashonable to point this out. So why not have God in the moto. After all it is the tradditional form of words for the City.

Rob N

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

Actually most research now points to the UK having 52% of people that do not believe in God. (Which also easily tallies with all the people I come across, which to be honest seems closer to 80%).

spyinthesky
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spyinthesky

Correct, it has been wavering around that figure for a few years now. Cant say it worries me much but this version seems more inclusive to me as it covers both those with and without religion which seems fair especially if both versions have previously been used. Having done a lot of research into Thames Ironworks and old aircraft firms in recent years I come across a lot of apparent contradictions in the use of logos, names, badges et al there was very little consistency in an unconnected world. If we simply went with tradition for traditions sake we would… Read more »

Rob N
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Rob N

I think it is just nuts to have a moto ‘Guide Us’ when you leave out who is to guide. Perhaps that says it all for the UK in 2018!

Lee Fear
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Lee Fear

In which case “God Guide Us” is also an odd motto as you can’t be guided by a fictional character. It might as well say “Robin Hood Guide Us” Or a better option would be “Batman Guide Us”…

Major Midget
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Major Midget

I agree in principle. There is always a sense of needless or over-exasperated indignation, usually from the DM, DE and alikes.

At the same time, myths and legends have their place in the RN. It is unnecessary to change a motto that has ‘god’ in it, while the RN has a fondness for naming ships after Greek & Roman mythology. Especially while the City of London still has the motto and no one seems to be caring about it, and the ship’s name, motto, badge and legacy is a sort of representation of the city itself.

Nathan
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Nathan

You just made a strong claim to truth.

Presumably you have evidence to back up this claim – or are you:
1) merely expressing a strongly held opinion with language that doesn’t actually support your beliefs
2) trusting in blind faith that your assertion is true
3) repeating someone else’s statements without actually critically appraising it
4) poised and ready to give us useful evidence and argument positively asserting your case?

A Sutton
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A Sutton

I doubt that there are many sailors in a full blown storm at sea or under fire who do not pray to God. The 2011 census highlights that 75% of England are religious, that includes London. Get it right Royal Navy, stop bowing to the minority. Give HMS London its full historic motto.

KevinC
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KevinC

Telegrapgh and Mail will be outraged lol but it is a more modern change that makes sense

Helions
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Helions

I’ll say it.

I served for God and Country. With great pride may I add. I’m even Anglican (Episcopal).

Cheers!

Geoffrey Roach
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Geoffrey Roach

Well said Helions. This is no more than another pathetic cave in by the “we mustn’t upset anybody” brigade. The problem is ..they do upset people…me. And where did this daft word “irreligious” come from. The word is atheist or is saying that too frightening in that it may bring down the wrath of…..?
Also, good point Callum. Tradition also matters.

Oscar Brown
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Oscar Brown

No. Atheist and ireligion mean different things. One is specific one is broad. Look it up first. Then comment.

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Highlight this from Geoffrey for other idiots on this forum….

I agree. And it is THIS that matters, not what newspapers one reads!!!!!!

Deary me….

Mr Bell
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Mr Bell

Regardless of ships Moto. We need 13 of these ships. 8 ASW optimised, 5 GP aka Australian Hunter class. Let’s get this done. We are a rich country and it is about time HMG invested in our nation’s armed forces.

Pete
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Pete

Many people don’t sign up as the concept of swearing allegiance to mythical entities and outdated monarchies is simply a joke. Devotion to people, values and country etc would be a realistic and appropriate commitment to many.

Geoffrey Roach
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Geoffrey Roach

Really…they don’t sign up because of having to swear an allegiance? I doubt that. If you sign up to defend your country you can’t pick out the bits you like and those you don’t like or we might as well all give up along with the millions who have gone before.

Elliott
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Elliott

Pete
That is without a doubt the most ass backwards excuse I have ever heard of to not serve your country. Face it if that is your beyond paper thin excuse you wouldn’t do your duty unless they set the conscription office on you. And then dragged you kicking and screaming to basic.

Heretic Pete
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Heretic Pete

I would happily do my duty to serve the nation and the country but it is absolutely hypocritical to swear allegiances to concepts that are. Imho, false or redundant to my values. My personal values are very closely aligned to those spouted by many religions. Does it matter if some people believe in one value stream or another when it comes to standing up for the nation. No… . of course it doesn’t. But to have to pretend to be part of those particular and, history shows, quite decisive value streams, is sheer nonesence. We all recognise that both recruitment… Read more »

Pete
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Pete

I would certainly do my duty for country…. Not for outdated concepts. Give those who serve the systems tools and critical mass to do the job they may have to do… Don’t get upset when someone with an understanding of the modern world and values removes symbols of ancient history.

Just a view

Geoffrey Roach
Guest
Geoffrey Roach

I’m not upset. upset…..just expressing a view! We’ll have to agree to differ.

Airborne
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Airborne

Total piffle as most dont even know they have to swear an oath of allegiance prior to them trying to join! Yet more crap from someone who knows naff all about the subject matter being discussed!

Paul.P
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Paul.P

Probably a humanist activist spreading good cheer; as usual? Yawn….

Patric c
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Patric c

So once again it’s the small vocal minority of a population that dictates a national policy. The west’s idea of democracy seems a little strange.

Jeremy Thompson
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Jeremy Thompson

As the old saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes, and I am sure even the non religious would agree that there is a place for God in times of extreme stress, e.g., during a modern battle. Besides, with MOD budget shortfalls these days I think the armed forces need all the prayer they can get, given there are so few frigates anyway.

John
Guest

Just like to raise that the pinstripe line is not a good blog. Please don’t reference it here. Cheers

Lusty
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Lusty

Whatever your thoughts about it, it does raise a good point at the end about the motto of Dreadnought.

Regardless of anyones religious thoughts on this, I hope it’s just an oversight. One could argue that the name ‘Agincourt’ is far more offensive to our French friends.

The motto, like the name and crest, should in part, honour the vessels and crews that came before it.

Daniele Mandelli
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Daniele Mandelli

Ah Yes. That reminds me of the fuss when Waterloo was home to the international station.

Let’s all so conveniently forget that the French have a station called Austerlitz.

PC brigade yet again.

sir Humphrey
Guest

I’m sorry to hear you dont like my blog John.

Could you provide a link to your own defence blog so I can read it and get some tips on how to do better?

John
Guest

Thanks for clearly demonstrating to everyone one of the many reasons why I don’t like your blog and cannot recommend it to others. Your evidently not sorry as demonstrated by your schnide second paragraph. I don’t write my own blog as I don’t need to. There are plenty of good defence websites, of which ukdefencejournal and the users comments comes near the top for me. I feel you add barely anything to this that warrants wasting time trawlling trough what you have written. Real clear defence is also a good one along with janes

Sir Humphrey
Guest

So stop reading it then. There you go, problem solved!

Every blog has different appeal to people – but you’ll forgive me if I sound mildly hacked off when people choose to slag off something that I invest a lot of my spare time doing without reason or foundation – its easy to criticise, far harder to do.

John
Guest

Sorry George, I’m not sure why you have chosen to step in here. I’ve got nothing against the work you do for this site. I’m not sure what you are agreeing with SH about…? And I’m not sure why you have chosen to put down your own work. I’m well aware you will reference what you please, unfortunately saying so comes across as rather childish. Also what you have said discredits the other posters when you under value what they have to say. You do find some nuggets of gold in the comments people put on here, more so than… Read more »

Fedaykin
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Fedaykin

“Your evidently not sorry as demonstrated by your schnide second paragraph.” –

Sorry for what? His own editorial choices?

Let me take a wild stab in the dark here, do you not like what he has to say over recruitment and inclusivity issues?

John
Guest

He said he was sorry I didn’t like his blog? Re read?

Douglas Newell
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Douglas Newell

I’m not religious but happy to identify as a cultural Christian. Removing “god” from a motto like that is just silly.

Lee1
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Lee1

A cultural christian?

David E Flandry
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David E Flandry

Its a term used by some atheists ,such as Dawkins, to indicate their approval of holiday
traditions such as Christmas, gift-giving, caroling, etc., without accepting the supernatural dogma.

Gary
Guest
Gary

“Si vis pacem, para bellum” (Latin) “If you wish for peace, prepare for war” Presumably the RN motto will have to change for being too aggressive? 🙂 Or HMS Prince of Wales Motto “Ich Dien” (“I Serve”) for the considerable % of the population who don’t believe in the monarchy. “However, the law still stipulates that the acting British sovereign mustn’t be a Catholic” If you make one change for fear of upsetting someone, go the whole hog or not at all. It would be utter lunacy for the RN to waste so much time on nonsense when they got… Read more »

Lusty
Guest
Lusty

‘Memor Es Tuorum’.
“Be mindful of your ancestors”.

I think the motto used by HMS Glasgow is appropriate in this case.

As a side note, all the other T26 mottos remain unchanged. If anyone’s interested:

Glasgow: “Be mindful of your ancestors”
Cardiff: “Keen in emergency”
Belfast: “What shall we give in return for so much?”
Birmingham: “Forward”

Marc Fenton
Guest
Marc Fenton

Maybe Allah would be more appropriate bearing in mind it will be used to protect Arab interests.

Mdpepa
Guest
Mdpepa

tbh the armed forces do waste a lot of time and money on religion.

Are they more poly-theist now?

I see parralels in commercial businesses paying union reps. Surely it’s all personal choice and the whole does not pay my phone bill, with which I spend the majority of time in dedicated worship.

Tradition is the evil of inefficiency, mainly why I chose not to sign up, having spent tens of thousands being trained for military service.

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

New motto : “Someone guide us, please”

Derek
Guest
Derek

My issue with it is that ‘God guide us’ has a substance (even to an atheist such as I), particularly in times of conflict where matters of life and death are the consequence of taking decision aboard ship.

‘Guide us’ just makes it sound like they are lost!

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

I’m an atheist also, but a country should not be too hasty in dumping its traditions without replacing them with something meaningful.

Elliott
Guest
Elliott

If you are not continuing the ships motto then why bother with the name? What could possibly be offensive about asking ones God for guidance? The motto did not name a specific God or Gods so what was the issue? Why grant the atheists privilege when they seem to have a inability to have the ability to function as an adult in a world where guess what the majority of humanity has always and will always believe in some form of deity? A note irreligion/agnosticism does not equate to atheism and while atheism and agnosticism has increased in Britain, the… Read more »

Paul Hill
Guest
Paul Hill

How do atheists not have the ability to function in the adult world? That is a very curious statement, as a functioning adult atheist I would love to know what you mean by that?

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Really don’t think it has anything to do specifically with atheists, but rather just PC bs in general. I was born and raised a Catholic going to Catholic schools for 16 years, where I became and remain a stance atheist. Let I’m extremely disappointed in the MOD for changing tradition for no reason.

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

The PC brigade continue apace… Daily toasts where the last ones. However the old toast where and are still in use.

Sunday “Absent friends”
Monday “Our ships at sea”
Tuesday “Our men” (changed in 2013 to “Our sailors”)
Wednesday “Ourselves”
Thursday “A bloody war or a sickly season”
Friday “A willing foe and sea-room”
Saturday “Our wives and sweethearts” (Usually with the reply “May they never meet!”; changed in 2013 to “Our families”)

David Nicholls
Guest
David Nicholls

The legal head of the armed forces (the sovereign) is also the head of the state religion (Church of England) therefore the rationale for removing “God” from the motto is very limited!

Grubbie
Guest
Grubbie

Why am I bothering to comment on something no one cares about?

Sean
Guest
Sean

For technical accuracy, I’m suprised that the MOD didn’t change it to “GPS Guide Us” ?

Presumably we’ll be dropping “souls” from SOS next.

Heretic Pete
Guest
Heretic Pete

And recruitment and retention in the Brand is doing so well….

BlueFuzz
Guest
BlueFuzz

Your blog’s spot on Sir Humphery – the best informed and most balanced I’ve found. I recommend it to my military colleagues. Ignore the critics.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Guest
Levi Goldsteinberg

Wouldn’t care if it was just down to the fact that religion has taken a backseat in British society, but you just KNOW the real reason is the PC hacks in the civil service thought it would be too uninclusive to feature in the motto

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Exactly.

Gavin Gordon
Guest
Gavin Gordon

I am certainly one of the 52% without religion, but can see no point in changing traditionl latin mottos; after all you may as well say we’re scrubbing latin as well because nobody uses it in modern society. With regard to this particular ‘new’ motto though, who is ‘Guide Us’ supposed to be requesting succour from? It appears to indicate they haven’t got a clue who’s going to aid them – in which case it comes across to me as ‘(God) Help Us!’

Ruth Jolie
Guest
Ruth Jolie

Most UKDJ comment thread ever. Watching you lot have your daily rants is one of my guilty pleasures and this one is absolutely brilliant. If someone can crowbar in Brexit and maybe a Corbyn comment you will have peaked.

Lewis
Guest
Lewis

If your going to go PC by not including any reference to god, then change the GODDAMN motto. ‘Guide us’, is such a vague and floppy term. Might as well just change it entirely.

Geoffrey Hicking
Guest
Geoffrey Hicking

I hope this motto business hasn’t anything to do with secularism. I’m sick of seeing my culture destroyed.

Russ
Guest
Russ

Good god it’s finally gone. Most people in this country are not religious and I strongly suggest they would prefer our navy to rely on a decent navigation system and charts as opposed to a deity. As for the traditionalists they mastermind a navy that became outdated and outclassed; traditionally they’ve done it wrong and they will continue to do it wrong. There are much more important things to fight for than a functionally irrelevant motto.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Unbelievably Entertaining Thread this Is, a bit like Farcebook but with Grown up words. Can’t wait for later when the Alcohol Kicks In. !

Jonny
Guest
Jonny

So now it’s just going to be “Guide us”? Who’s going to guide us? Isn’t that just asking to be laughed at since that is suggesting that we need something on Earth to guide us, like another country or another ship? It was much better off as the traditional motto.

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

I’m actually more bemused by the sight of the ship’s Chaplain standing on the ramp as QE enters harbour, seems positively Monty Pythonesqe. Perhaps the Spanish could do the same on the Juan Carlos 1 in which case their ships motto can be “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.” As for HMS London, “Direct Us” works just fine with “direct” being a valid translation of “dirige” as Sir H points out in his blog. Nothing to do with being PC, just more relevant to a younger generation that will be serving on her. As for tradition, haven’t some of the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I have commented on the cap badges so that may have been me.

Issue not cost but keeping too many infantry battalions to avoid political flak over famous names while the rest of the supporting units get the chop. That is artillery. Engineers. Signals. REME. RAMC. AAC. RLC.

No issue with the cap badges per se as I think the sense of camaraderie, identity and belonging is important.

Glass Half Full
Guest
Glass Half Full

Trouble is that if needed units are getting the chop then that’s a “cost” even if the total spend hasn’t changed. Also to be clear, I am not against tradition if it serves a purpose for the military personnel serving today or in the future. Just not for a continuation of practices just because its been done in the past.

Matthew Foster
Guest
Matthew Foster

It seems rather amusing that while HMS London will be removing ‘GOD’ from its motto the future HMS Dreadnought seems to be keeping the word with this tweet from 2016.

All of this seems to be very unnecessary to me with the city still keeping the full motto, but does make sense with the semi-recent army recruitment campaigns being overtly PC, perhaps this is a byproduct of this?

https://twitter.com/AdmPhilipJones/status/789360722727796736

P tattersall
Guest
P tattersall

Talking about newspapers IMO the only idiots are the ones who read communist anti forces rubbish printed in the Mirror guardian independent Observer the four lefty loon papers still lobbing strong for prosecutions against past and present service man .

Evan P
Guest
Evan P

The usual anti “PC brigade” brigade is here, and I would like to point out something. Political correctness works both ways. In other words, political correctness may be the reason to remove “God” from a motto, but it is also the reason why religion is still allowed to have such a large part in the armed forces today. I’d have thought that our obsession with not upsetting Sky Dad’s followers would be over in this day and age (this is a sentence designed to upset the same people who like calling others “snowflakes” for being offended). This is nothing news… Read more »

J Peter Wilson
Guest
J Peter Wilson

You need to read the report on the Premier Christian Radio website which says that the MOD deny your UKDJ report – https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Ministry-of-Defence-denies-dropping-God-from-new-ship-motto

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

How you can take anything seriously from that report when It clearly states that the vessel costs £ 8 billion, God only knows. I didn’t bother reading any further.

Nath
Guest
Nath

I really do not understand most atheists. I have not once heard a positive argument to support atheism – not one. I have heard plenty of arguments against theism but not one for atheism. How can one affirm a belief when one has no evidence for it? Surely that is the height of irrationality? Moreover, one may say – I haven’t seen any good arguments for theism, therefore I don’t believe in a God but that is irrational too – absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Most of use do not assume the negation of a belief, idea… Read more »