The two countries will share technology to develop ‘NAREW’, Poland’s future Ground-Based Air Defence System, which is anticipated to have a multi-billion-pound budget.
The Ministry of Defence say here that the agreement was reached between Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Błaszczak.
“The agreement will provide enhanced security and defence development for both countries, while developing and sustaining critical skills across the missile sector in Poland and the UK. In the UK, MBDA’s Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) family has been confirmed for the NAREW programme. Flying at supersonic speeds, CAMM missiles can destroy modern air threats including stealth aircraft and high-speed missiles. Each CAMM family missile is equipped with an advanced active radar seeker that can see even the smallest, fastest and stealthiest targets through the worst weather and the heaviest electronic jamming.”
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:
“This agreement will deliver a step change in our defence co-operation with Poland and paves the way for our militaries to operate even more closely. Minister Błaszczak and I look forward to seeing the GBAD partnership develop. Britain and Poland have historically stood side by side against a range of threats and will continue to deepen our partnership.”
Chris Allam, Managing Director MBDA UK:
“MBDA is delighted to be playing such a leading role in the UK-Poland Defence partnership. This agreement endorses the deep relationship we have formed with Poland’s Ministry of National Defence and Polish Industry and is underpinned by the nature of our unprecedented technology co-operation and transfer proposal for NAREW and Polish Air Defence.
In choosing MBDA, and the CAMM family, Poland will receive the benefits of a true European missile partnership, the latest capabilities, and the ability to secure and develop highly skilled jobs in its defence industry. We thank Poland for the trust placed in us and we look forward to delivering this programme in co-operation with PGZ.”
Nice one MBDA! Is this the first foreign sale for Land based CAMM? Maybe they could double this success and choose CAMM for their Naval requirements.
Finland, I think. I’ve seen pictures of Finnish Land Ceptor, but I’m not sure if they actually bought it or were trialling it.
Land Ceptor is a proposal for Finland, competition hasn’t closed yet.
No apart from the British Army, the Brazilian Marines have also selected the Land Ceptor system. Other sales campaigns underway (including Poland and Finland).
Brazilian marines did not opt for the Land Ceptor, the Land Ceptor is one of the options evaluated for the acquisition of a future medium altitude anti-aircraft defense system for the Brazilian armed forces, but the Land Ceptor is one of the most highly rated as for the Anti-aircraft Defense of the future Tamandaré-Class Frigates the Sea Ceptor was chosen with the CAMM missile, this can count in favor of the Land Ceptor.
We must wish them luck. By all accounts it’s an excellent missile system with potential for further development.
Not related but has anyone had word of submarine launched antiair missile projects other than IDAS.
I am only aware of the German development based on IRIS-T missile, that can be launched from torpedo tubes.
I am not aware that the UK has brought any?
Thanks. Perhaps these projects are not in the public domain, yet.
And I said some years ago on UKDJ it would be 2025/6 before Russia & China’s new quantum radar technology would be able to do this, time will tell of course but it appears they’re making progress!
“Flying at supersonic speeds, CAMM missiles can destroy modern air threats including stealth aircraft and high-speed missiles. Each CAMM family missile is equipped with an advanced active radar seeker that can see even the smallest, fastest and stealthiest targets through the worst weather and the heaviest electronic jamming.”
https://thequantumdaily.com/2021/09/04/chinese-scientists-say-quantum-radar-could-end-stealth-advantage/
Could they have been referring to the UK/Poland or China & Russia?
The USAF fields 186 F-22s, with the ‘fifth generation’ type’s all-aspect stealth making it difficult to detect for all but the most advanced of systems and dedicated of operators. It is employed in both the air-to-air and air-to-ground roles.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/usaf-commits-nearly-usd11-billion-to-future-f-22-upgrades
Another $60 million per aircraft ? Can they really be worth it or is just jobs for votes ?
Didn’t someone, was it the Czechs, not develop about 20 years ago, a stealth tracking system using inverted aeromagnetic technology ? Scan the skies looking for magnetic anomalies using the same technology that can identify geoligical rock differences 10,000feet below the surface.
Hi Pete, I’m not sure to be honest, but Germany is also developing this technology called Twinvis.
https://www.c4isrnet.com/intel-geoint/sensors/2019/09/30/stealthy-no-more-a-german-radar-vendor-says-it-tracked-the-f-35-jet-in-2018-from-a-pony-farm/
That one is still hotly debated. For starters the F35 in question definitely had the Luneberg lenses fitted, which greatly amplify the aircraft’s RCS. They also had a spotter at the airshow, to let their control wagon know when the aircraft was taking off and landing. The Twinvis system is not new, but a evolution of bistatic radar, i.e. where the transmitter and receiver are widely separated. For example Chain Home was a bistatic radar system. However Twinvis take the concept of a moving hole to determine a stealthy aircraft’s bearing, direction of travel and velocity. It works by using… Read more »
Some info about stealth. Stealthy aircraft can be detected, but only at short ranges around the radars; for a stealthy aircraft there are substantial gaps in the radar coverage. Thus a stealthy aircraft flying an appropriate route can remain undetected by radar. Even if a stealth aircraft is detected, fire-control radars operating in C, X and Ku bands cannot paint (for missile guidance) low observable jets except at very close ranges. Many ground-based radars exploit Doppler filter to improve sensitivity to objects having a radial velocity component relative to the radar. Mission planners use their knowledge of enemy radar locations… Read more »
Remember reading how the Serbs managed to down an F117 it was very clever using a mix of their more powerful Ground based Air defence radars along with position prediction from the information that offered, to get around the fact that their fire control radars could not paint the target. They hoped that the missiles would based on position presumption get close enough to pick up the target which on that occasion it could. Important therefore that the stealth aircraft don’t follow predictable routes or speeds for that matter, out of a feeling of invulnerability.
The feeling of invulnerability seems to have led to a sense of complacency, with, for example, the departure times of F117 missions being readily observable from the base in Italy, or continuing with missions when escorts weren’t available.
In the case of the F117 shoot down over Serbia wasn’t there accusations of a Leak from the NATO Mission Planning Centre – it’s much easier to assertain where a Stealth Aircraft might be if you knew where it was likely to be at a certain time?.
Thanks Robert. Understand the Radar issues. What I’m talking about is magnetic anomaly tracking. Resources sector flies planes over prospective regions looking for the slightest change in magnetic density in base rocks as they fly overhead. Changes detected often reflect the difference in magnetic signature caused by intersections of rock types and/ or dry rock and rocks saturated in water or oil thousands of meters below other rocks. Against a blank canvas of an empty sky I thought I had read something a long time ago to effect the magnetic density of an aircraft could be tracked as it moved… Read more »
😄 who knows what wacky technology is being looked at these day’s. As with most of this anti stealth talk. Detection is one thing, tracking and engaging is a whole other ball game. And yet despite the advances in radar technology, everyone is still desperate to develop stealth aircraft. Russia, China, new 6th gen platforms like Tempest, NGF, NGAD, F/A-XX. All stealth.
One of the techniques that is be looked at, is the ionization generated by the exhaust gas pushed out the back of a jet engine. At certain frequencies it will reflect radar, but it is dependent on the engine’s generated exhaust gas temperature being high enough to cause ionization, such as when using reheat.
If it can be made to work it will only give you rough information, which can be improved upon by using it in a network. However, much like the Twinvis system Nigel mentions, it won’t be able to give you height information. Which will be crucial in forming an engagement plot for a surface to air missile for example.
Hey Davey. Ill leave it at this but the Aeromagnetic survey process is used to calculate both Depth and Intersection points of the Magnetic anomaly. Important issue is to compare the results recorded versus the prevailing regional back-ground magnetic force. Can be complicated pointing downwards from an aircraft flying over an extensive survey area with overlapping rock types multiple KM’s below the surface…but that is what they do. I could imagine it will be a lot easier using ground based acquisition stations pointing upwards with a virtual zero background force. Real time processing power of data acquired would be the… Read more »
I suppose they are using synthetic aperture imaging techniques. This is where you take a linear series of snapshots of the ground below then using a computer to stitch the images together. By using disrupted phase change techniques you can work out the depth of an object. But to do it in real time will need megabucks of signal processing.
Quite famously Rapier was able to track the B2 Stealth Bomber through its thermal imaging cameras (and not just the engines).
Very interesting Watcherzero, it seems the kill chain for stealth is almost upon us, I’ve often advocated for longer range standoff missiles (1000nm+) as at some point, stealth will no longer be as useful to us as it is today.
The range of detection will also increase so the further away you are the better!
The USA seems to be implementing this strategy.
https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/capabilities/products/tomahawk-cruise-missile
Type 22’s also tracked F-117 in the first Gulf War with ease.
Similar to my response to WZ post, I imagine that it’s a lot easier to track a stealth aircraft that’s not trying to hide from you. On the other hand, if you are its intended target, then detecting and tracking it becomes much more complex.
It also did the Blackbird during a Farnborough flyby. Lockheed had boldly stated that there weren’t any European SAM radars capable of tracking. However, Rapier field standard A tracked it all the way in and out from 50 miles away.
Hate to state the obvious but I imagine that it’s a lot easier to track a stealth aircraft that’s not trying to hide from you. On the other hand, if you are its intended target, then detecting and tracking it becomes much more complex.
During normal operations, stealth aircraft will fly with a number of devices fitted to them that magnify their radar cross section (RCS). These can range from angular tabs to Luneberg Lenses. The idea is to hide the true value of the aircraft’s RCS. The F35 for example always flies with at least two Luneberg lenses fitted. It is alleged that the F35 has a RCS measuring 0.005m2. With the lenses fitted these magnify the RCS to around 0.1m2. Which is still a lot small that all 4th and 4.5 gen jets. If the gloves come off in a peer vs… Read more »
This article has absolutely nothing to do with your flaky tales of quantum radars.
Keep it relevant.
It appears you have been proved wrong once again Ron 5, nothing new on here or STRN. Nothing new to add either other than your usual idiotic replies.
Still no answer from you on what will replace the US fleet of F16’s that you have mentioned many times in the past? namely the F-35.
Wrong again it appears.
Perhaps you should consider changing your name to WRONG 5!
To be fair mind he isn’t the only one wondering what Quantum Radars actually have to do with this article unless there is some unmentioned and unlikely connection to CAMMS reported ability to engage stealth targets, otherwise its the most lateral of lateral thinking. That said the information on Quantum Radar you supply is interesting in its own right though the article is very sketchy and unsurprisingly not very informative in reality judging by it and the basic description of a very early concept it indeed seems highly unlikely, even if it can work at all in a practical sense… Read more »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_radar
I’ve described the issues before, Quantum Radar is a pipe dream, that can work over very short distances in a lab! Trying to field it on something as small as an aircraft, definitely won’t happen in my lifetime. Unless they solve the problem of inventing quantum memory that can hold the captured entangled twin of the transmitted photon without disturbing or altering it. Therefore, you will have to rely on using a fibre optic whose length is matched to the photons transmitted and return distance. Otherwise you will not be able to compare the two twins to determine a target’s… Read more »
Well, they seem to be having some success in solving the problem.
A quick question, how is it now possible to detect and track a stealth aircraft? we’ve had this conversation many times in the past!
Looking forward to your informative reply as always.
https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/1367-2630/page/Focus%20on%20Quantum%20Memory
Gosh, where to start? It’s very chicken and the egg scenario. When one person develops a counter to a radar, the other will develop a counter to that, to try a nullify the effect. With regards to an aircraft design countering radar, there are quite a few techniques that are used. The easiest is to use shaping/faceting (ala F117). Where the aircraft’s surfaces and leading/trailing edges are angled, so the transmitted wave is directed away from the receiver. This gets a lot more complicated when you introduce bi-static radar. This is where the transmitter and receiver can be separated by… Read more »
Enjoy the beer and thank you for taking the time to post, very interesting and informative.
IBM has made further advance it would appear?
IBM claims advance in quantum computingBy Paul Rincon
Science editor, BBC News website
Published
3 days ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59320073
It is Highly unlikely that ‘quantum radar’ will work at atmospheric pressure with trillions of atom combinations.
A vacuum is required for particle entanglements. So in outer space it is possible for ‘quantum radar to work likely.
As I said above in reply to DaveyB
A very interesting subject.
https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/1367-2630/page/Focus%20on%20Quantum%20Memory
It is Highly unlikely that ‘quantum radar’ will work at atmospheric pressure, with trillions of atom combinations.
A near vacuum is required for detectable particle entanglements. So quantum radar is most likely to only work in outer space where atoms are few and far between.
Otherwise how would you pick out particle
entanglements amongst trillions of trillions of particles?
Possibly, but things appear to be moving in the right direction at least.
IBM claims advance in quantum computingBy Paul Rincon
Science editor, BBC News website
Published
3 days ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59320073
Quantum computers will be laboratory contraptions for a decade or two,, because operating temperature have to be very low in vacuum conditions, for the qubit logic units to function fully.
This is great news and underlines how successful the CAMM family is becoming. MBDA is doing a great job in complex weapons domain, underpinned by a very effective relationship with the Complex Weapons team at MoD… an important relationship when dealing in government to government deals such as this one.
Hopefully we’ll see more success in the future.
Cheers CR
I posted this in another thread.
“Engineers from MBDA Missile Systems, working in conjunction with Swansea University research staff, have developed an innovative, compact, low-cost global navigation satellite system (GNSS) anti-jam antenna specifically suited to smaller calibre-guided weapons.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/c4isr-command-tech/latest/mbda-showcases-low-cost-anti-jam-gnss-antenna
So CAMM is the missile, the programme is to develop the rest of the setup such a launcher vehicle and radar?
A reasonable assumption. Maybe just the radar & control system given the launcher already exists and has been shown mounted on a variety of trucks.
I would expect to see the CAMM/CAMM-ER and perhaps the mission control module etc, mounted on their Jelcz trucks instead of the Man ones. The rest may be the same as Sky Sabre, though the excellent Saab Girafe AMB could be updated with their 4A or 8A AESA versions.
Interesting – might be CAMM-ER too. The Defence Command Paper mentions a new medium ranged air defence system as well as a new SHORAD system, so could be a joint-development route for a new system for the British Army too.
The UK already has a CAMM & CAMM-ER system in Sky Sabre. Why would it want another one from Poland?
Not ‘from Poland’ surely ‘with Poland’? I.e. jointly funded development costs. Becuase an air defence system is more than the missiles and launchers. We are using SAAB Giraffe for Sky Sabre (CAMM)- but CAMM can be cued by any sensor and CAMM-ER probably needs longer-ranged sensors and then there is EO/IR and passive intercept, fire control, ESM / ECM / IFF. Also a true A2AD system needs a SHORAD / C-UAS element too – so could be a wider system. We certainly need one.
Saab Giraffe AMB is plenty long ranged enough for CAMM-ER.
And Sky Sabre already has EO/IR/IFF & an excellent FCS.
It seems a bit daft for the UK to invest in another system that does exactly the same.
I don’t think the UK is ‘investing’. We’ve formed a partnership that involves MBDA with CAMM but it doesn’t appear to need any significant UK investment, seems to be Poland only. I suspect this will turn into more MBDA investment in Poland, which I suspect bodes well for a Brimstone purchase as well…and perhaps Meteor and Spear/Spear EW for F-35A.
I was replying to the comment that the UK should consider buying the eventual Polish product. Which I think is kinda daft.
I fear we will yet again see our tech used by a foreign country and it be upgraded and resulting in them having a more capable asset. CAMM-ER has been on the radar for a while, I don’t get why landceptor / whatever it’s now called wasn’t built around using it in the future. Maybe I misread but I read somewhere that the design isn’t long enough to support it
I don’t see how this is a bad news story? We ordered Sky Sabre before CAMM-ER was more than a twinkle in an Italian eye, and the Italian branch of MBDA have developed CAMM-ER and a ground-based variant. Also its clear in the DCP that the British Army have resources for an upgraded medium range system – so all good I think.
It’s more bad planning and stupid cost savings on small but significant areas (like cost cutting on the QE armour over original plan or for its weapons, small overall cost increase, significant impact longer term), the ER version has been in development for a while, so it surely wouldn’t have been that more expensive to build in expandability to allow for the increased size. Even if the ER wasn’t in concept stage at the point of development of land ceptor, surely even an idiot could have guessed future longer range missiles will need to be longer, so build in some… Read more »
The CAMM-ER uses same electronics guidance ? so it really shouldn’t be hard to put ER canisters on to the trucks missile only .8M longer? hell just make canisters have same mounting points as standard length so will take either like a 44’ container fits same lorry bed as 40’ just over hangs each end.
Yep, it just has a bigger rocket motor from Avio.
Its also just frustrating when you see smaller nations taking our gear and ordering them in larger numbers, such as Australia buying more t26.
Thing is, they don’t have a nuclear weapons umbrella to support and look what the US marines can do with a similar budget to our MoD!
We effectively have 4 service to support out of one budget, everyone is bound to get a bit squeezed here and there.
And we have a hell of a lot of kit Australia doesn’t have.
Hi Steve, we just need the RN to order at least one more T26 and we’re even!
Yes but we also have 5 Type 31, 6 Type 45 and will order 5 Type 32, so comparing apples with oranges.
From EDR magazine: While retaining the CAMM’s basic architecture (RF Seeker, warhead, active laser proximity, actuators, inertial measurement unit, electronics and power unit, two-way datalink and programmable systems), the ER variant is longer (4.2 meters) to incorporate an extended booster/sustainer rocket motor developed specifically for the MBDA missile by Italian company’s Avio, in a larger calibre (190 mm) propulsion section. Consequently, the overall weight of the missile has increased from 99 kg to 160 kg. The interceptor’s aerodynamics have also been improved, adding strakes to the missile central body which design has been subsequently refined, alongside small fins to the… Read more »
Sky Sabre is already CAMM-ER capable and will be getting the longer ranged missiles.
Excellent – so no need for all this reflex whinging then!
wasn’t whinging was just offering what to me wouldn’t have been hard to get. We will always have external battle between Politicians out for press coverage announcements saying buying more or saving money (whichever party says one the other will say its bad), the bean counters trying to balance the budget and the top brass trying trying to do 1000 things with only 500 assets 🙁
Good news, that is not what I read but if true then it’s a big plus.
Not if we send Bloodhound to Poland instead of CAMM-ER
We aren’t sending CAMM-ER, since the UK hasn’t joined the project, unless I missed something.
Sorry I was replying too Ron5s post Steve
CAM ER is coming to the British Army apparently as part of the GBAD upgrades.
Hi,
This is very good news if true, do you have a source for that? It makes good sense. Is there any indication that tge RN will get the ER missile to? Sea Ceptor ER on T26/T45 would be a major plus.
Read it from a Tweet from the Co of 7 ADG I recall, or maybe D-RA. Sorry, Director Royal Artillery. I recall UKAFC had a link to it on the Twitter feed months back.
I read on Jane’s that Italians and French also seem to be employing the newer Land Aster Samp/t system based on the Aster 30 NG. This could be more at the Patriot level SAM. I’m not sure of any UK involvement with this but the missile tech will be in our T45 Asters. Back to this article, it’s good to hear the UK is looking at CAMM-ER as the UKs ports, bases, key infrastructure, and people(!) could all do with some more serious SAM cover.
What SAM cover? Currently there is none! The Army’s system is for deployment…..
The UK’s MoD were also part of the funding for the Aster NG. It was MBDA that let slip that the NG will be going on the T45s. The Aster upgrade program includes a new radar (not AESA yet), plus a new rocket booster (different fuel type) that gives it the improved range for tackling medium range ballistic missiles.
Sounds very good. The zT45 will be a formidable unit with 48 ASTER 30 NG ans 24 Sea Ceptor. I would like to see the RN getting CAAMS ER.
Yes I think ASTER 30 1NG has a new improver radar and is a medium range ABM system. I would like to see the UK getting it as part of our land based air defence.
There are no SAM defence for ports and it is not expected there will be. Same btw for France, Germany ( i think they have some Patriots for field deployment ) . Italy might still have some obsolete Aspides but those are for airbases.
From Twitter
Gabrileli Molinelli: Is the British Army looking at buying into CAMM ER? I hope it is. Fastest and cheapest way to a significantly larger protected area…
Col Graham Taylor: Yes. 40km MRAD range is coming
Just 40km…i bet it’s more than that.. Lol 😁
The UK hasn’t joined what project? CAMM-ER is a joint project between Italy and the UK.
I couldn’t see any evidence that the UK gov has invested in it, details I saw was only Italy so far. Has that changed? Same with the new Aster versions, no UK investment that I can find details of.
UK recently joined the Italian programme to recondition Aster 30 to NT standard. The NT programme was jointly funded by Britain and France, Italy joined later.The Defence Command Paper says that the British Army will get new medium and short ranged GBAD systems – its widely thought to incude CAMM-ER as the medium range element and a mix of LMM/Fury/Martlet (from Starstreak launchers) and DE / EA C-UAS weapons. hhttps://www.gov.uk/government/news/500m-firepower-upgrade-for-type-45-destroyers
It was a joint project from the get go.
CAMM just keeps racking up the sales! A great example from MBDA on how to run a complex program that plenty of others could learn from.
First engineers helping on the border and now collaboration on air defence could be omens for Poland going with T31 for their frigate requirement.
So will this just be the Polish version of Sky Sabre, or will it be a bit different, and possibly something we could use in places that Sky Sabre might not be too well suited?
The CAMM missile is good. My understanding is that the heart of the Sky Sabre system is the Israeli Iron Dome software.
well tested then.
Not often we can compliment the MoD, but credit where credit is due – they’ve been very effective recently at working with the private sector to promote British tech and hardware
Nice to help the polish out ,now how about Air defence for the UK please 🚀
Quite!
Errrr do we still have those nice bloodhound systems to protect our V bombers? 😉😉
Now, forward base the Polish system in the Baltics and the Ukraine and Russian aviation advantage takes a serious kicking in the gonads and the Baltics/ The Ukraine get a fantastic upgrade to their lamentable Shorad systems.
That Bear will be scratchings his nuts awhile with this system deployed.
“Poland will receive the benefits of a true European missile partnership”: You are not European anymore. Hard to understand how the polish accept to work with UK since you will not have the EU funding. Even if the CAMM is a good missile I dont really understand its goal for a ground based system. Its like the VL Mica, too short for long range and too big for short range. We can talk about multilayer but the biggest issues are for short and long range, not really med… In western countries we have a big lack of mobile air defense… Read more »
Leaving the EU doesn’t make us not European. Most Brexiteers I’ve met, myself included think of themselves as deeply European we just value the independence of individual European nations and identities as opposed to the singular political and cultural vision of Brussels. Take Poland as a case in-point. They rightly are complaining that Brussels doesn’t get to define what “European values” are. And herein is the rub, they are discovering what we also realised. The EU gradually homogenises European nations, which slowly lose their uniqueness in exchange for cheaper beer and sausage. You can try to push back but in… Read more »
Sorry, I did not want to push the Brexit subject here, it was not my intent.
In this specific case, when I said you are not European, its in the pov of Poland searching for funding from EU everywhere, so, working with UK as a “European” partnership its quite odd.
For the Brexit subject, I respect the decision, I’ve a gaullist view, the UK should never have been in the EU but build a strong bilaterial relationship.
But it’s too late now.
They are referring to MBDA I think as the European missile partnership, an acknowledgement that both the UK and Italian arms will be involved as CAMM-ER has Italian content.
as does CAMM, the seekers for one, are made in Italy.
Afaik seekers are made in UK, but the ceramic head is in Italy. The new control surfaces necessary for the bigger CAMM-ER are made in Italy obviously.
Seekers are made in Fusaro, Italy just as the Aster seekers are. In fact …
There are no new “control surfaces”. Strakes and a small fin were added to the booster and missile bodies to improve aerodynamics.
Certainly any visit to Poland will educate anyone who wishes to be educated at what it is like to be a front line Country for many, many hundreds of years be it with Russia, Germany or for most of that time the Ottoman Empire. Its a very different mindset as a result to those in this Country or indeed Brussels and understandably so. We and the EU should certainly respect that. Poland was the first unitary Nation to be established in Europe in the 10th Century and yet it has been independent in the period since for only a few… Read more »
The EU is not Europe.
Well, from a geographical view, it’s true. From a political view, if you are not in the EU actually, you are not european, you are a neighbor. When people ask “you are european ?” they dont ask if you are from the EU or maybe UK or maybe EuroRussia or maybe EuroTurkish. They only ask for the EU. Even if the UK can be seen as an exception for the moment. It’s particularly true from the Poland point of view, it’s odd for them to work with the UK because they generally have only 2 “partner”. The US, because, well,… Read more »
Utter tosh!
It is this sort of arrogance that is the mark of the EU. The UK is as much part of Europe as France or Germany. Your argument is crass and insulting to this Eurpean.
You see arrogance, I see reality. It’s like saying France, UK or Germany are not superpower. We are not, our time is over. I dont think turkishs or russians are sad to not be qualified as European. Why ? Because they have their own identities so they dont care. As for the UK, well, I dont give the rules I just see the impact. I dont even see the problem here. When we talks about american, do you think about mexicans, canadians, brasilians and other ? No ? But they are all americans. You probably think, like all the world… Read more »
‘I dont think turkishs or russians are sad to not be qualified as European. Why ? Because they have their own identities so they dont care.’
Well funnily enough the UK wanted to retain its identity so has left. If the countries left in the EU wish to lose the identities they have to be called Europeans then fair play.
Agreed.
Factual nonsense.
That’s an example of EU arrogance of equating Europe with the EU that has alienated so many people. So I guess in your warped logic Switzerland and Norway aren’t in Europe, perhaps you think they’re in Asia or Africa? 😂🤣😂
The UK uses Starstreak for short range air defence.
Thank’s for the answer, so it’s the same than Mistral/Stinger, we all need to make something for this line..
Starstreak is a bit different to Mistral/Stinger in that is a laser guided system. The three released darts that separate from the main body are command guided to the target, rather than the missile using its own infrared sensor to guide it to the target. This makes it nigh on impossible to use countermeasures against it. Though it does mean its not a fire and forget system.
We may not be part of Eu political group but I believe the U.K. is still part of Europe unless macrons punishment posse has towed us to mid Atlantic?
It’s not Macron or the EU which had push the UK. The UK has chosen to go. You can be geographically on the continent or the neighbor without being anywhere close to the EU (Russia/Turkish). That’s what is going with UK since the brexit context. I dont really understand this choice to cut every links with the EU but, that’s a reality. Even if the US chose to say stop to BJ. Do you not even see that ? Of course the situation can be reversed, since it’s absolutely dumb since the beginning, but for the moment, it’s not what… Read more »
No but it is macron that deflects of his party and performance by attempting to punish the U.K. it is macron and his ministers that have openly talked about hurting the U.K. to stop other countries doing same. Those. Are not the actions of an ally.
I voted to stay but after seeing the bullying actions by some radical pro Eu leaders , got to honest I wouldn’t rejoin now no matter what, some prices are just to high. Poland may find out same.
Poland is the greatest beneficiary of the EU fundings, so … I dont think so. As of Macron being the biggest threat for the UK, wait… what ? Do you realize that most of the brexit issues are coming from the UK itself ? The EU is literally passive… The lone real active situation is about fishings rights, and if we look carefully the data, it’s totally trivial for both UK and France (from a global view), but the most affected will be the UK… “Are not the actions of an ally.” Read that from a country of the AUKUS,… Read more »
Now your making things up, exactly where did I say macron was threat to U.K.? also it may be your opinion that the problems come from the U.K. but not everyone agrees. For instance a President threatening to cut off power to the U.K. from france because less than ten small boats weren’t given fishing permits, even though 90% had been given permits and it was quite legal for those boats to be refused on the agreement on fishing, macron is nothing but confrontational on most issues for last year. My french friends feel it’s distraction from his local problems… Read more »
“Poland won’t leave because of EU funding but if u asked everyone before brexit they would have said same that U.K” Pretty different, look at the balance of Poland. You cannot compare the UK which was slighlty independant even in the EU with the Poland fully integrated with the €. Since you cant understand the difference between the 2 countries I dont think you can understand anything in the EU. Of course Macron is doing politics, but hey, even if he yell or anything, if the UK was more flexible on the deals, the others countries will lead to an… Read more »
Also the AUKUS deal well the Australians no longer wanted the deal, the kit wasn’t what they wanted (plus local issues with the engineers in Oz) now the way it was done has been stated to have been thoroughly planned by the Australians, they couldn’t risk prewarning france and the news getting out. It had nothing todo with the U.K. or USA. It has been stated that Oz actually contacted the french to discuss and no one came back to them (unproven)
Dont care about wanted to drop the deals, its not the question.
“It had nothing todo with the U.K. or USA.”
You can say that to unaware people but UK and US cant just be so silly.
2 weeks before the AUKUS deals, FR and AUS was in a public declaration on TV where the aussie was “happy” for french-australia program.
How can you just say seriously the UK and US was not aware of the situation ?
If you really think that, you are clearly disconnected with the reality.
The reality was that the French had been missing milestones on the programme for some time. The costs were going up and the inservice date was going into the future. Not to mention what was on offer would have been old by sub standards when it arrived – no AIP etc. There was serious talk in Auz of cancelation even before AUKUS.
“been missing milestones on the programme for some time” False, the Aussie just change things every years. They also lack of basics infra in Australia. “The costs were going up and the inservice date was going into the future.” Costs was mainly because the base project was for 8 subs, expanded to 12, and the AU$ has lost 30% of its weight against the €. The lasted real costs growth was about 15%, nothing “important” in such military contract. For comparison, look the hunter class, and its a surface ship…. “Not to mention what was on offer would have been… Read more »
I think the Australians should have gone fore nuke boats from the start and not messed about with a conventional design. It is clearly not suitable boat to deal with the Chinese. They need nuke boats. I do not think you can deny the project was unpopular in Australia and there were strong calls for cancelation before AUKUS. Whatever the reasons the programme was growing in cost was late and was offering a boat that could not do the job. They were right to cancel it. I think had the Naval Group just taken things as just one of those… Read more »
“I think the Australians should have gone fore nuke boats from the start and not messed about with a conventional design. It is clearly not suitable boat to deal with the Chinese. They need nuke boats.” I agree, but dont forget the situation was different 5-10y ago. -Australia doesn’t have any nuclear industry (Except U mining) -Australians have a big anti-nuclear faction -Nuclear reactor are one of the most secret assets “I do not think you can deny the project was unpopular in Australia and there were strong calls for cancelation before AUKUS.” Of course I cant deny, but why… Read more »
I can tell you from experience of living in Australia for years that France as an Australian ally doesn’t even rate on the same planet as their alliance with the US. And the UK still has strong partnerships with the Australian armed forces and is a traditional friend of great standing. France as usual is overstating itself – doubly so when it tries ingratiating itself to China and influenced the EU to block AZ vaccine supplies to Australia and even neighbouring PNG. Seems the Aussie govt gave some payback.
What, France cannot standoff with the US ?
I think you make an unbelievable discovery, you probably need to tell this new truth to the world…
Really ?
“France as usual is overstating itself”
It’s not about overstating or anything…
Why do you think alliance is France OR US/UK ?
I will tell you a simple truth, you can have all… yes its true!
If for you France overstated herself, I think you underestimate the weight of France…
Australia and France can be allies, just Aus won’t be using French submarines and the US and UK are higher up the pecking order due to 5-Eyes and now AUKUS.
Uk uses starstreak. A fast missile that has 3 laser guided darts. It probably needs an update sometime but it’s meant to be good. It’s mounted on Alvis stormer? (Can’t remember exactly). Also comes in a 3 round launcher or single tube. There is also rapier but that’s getting replaced by caam, sky sabre. The submarine deal is a bit of a mess. I think Australia may have to get a few ssk, if the colins life can’t be stretched enough, The time scales are massive. When u look at how long it took to get uss nautilus in service… Read more »
Starstreak is being updated – they are getting the LMM/Martlet/Fury duel purpose missile from the same launcher – so it has now C-UAS, ground target as well as SHORAD capability.
Wrong. I know from from friends in Australia where the problems with the French programme have been ongoing for years and that on the last visit of the Australian PM to France he warned Macron that the project would be cancelled if progress was made. The French failed to do so, and Australia turned to USA and U.K. instead.
‘The EU is literally passive…’ Really?
So why does France threaten to cut power to a small island due to French fishing boats who cannot supply the required documents to fish in UK waters? They also then threaten to prevent British registered boats from entering French ports because of the same French issue?
For Jersey it was not the french GVT.
The threat coming from Macron about electricity contracts was not for Jersey and was not really clear.
In all cases, you know our politicians (Your and mine) are not really the most wise people on this planet…
You do not get it folk in the UK are in Europe but we do not wish to live in a superstate run from Brussels. I think the EU has been the one trying to punish the UK for leaving the block. Also the EU does not like the fact that BREXIT IS a success. The poses show that even those who voted remain no longer wish to rejoin the EU. Also you are glossing over the growing calls for less EU in the EU. If you gave the people of the EU a EXIT vote I should imagine many… Read more »
It’s boring to read always the same thing:
The biggest problem of the UK <-> EU and brexit can be simply seen here:
http://brexit.hypotheses.org/files/2018/02/Capture-d%E2%80%99e%CC%81cran-2018-02-15-a%CC%80-13.58.10.png
No one want to punish the UK except the UK itself, play the victim doesnt make you being a victim.
If you cant understand what this pic tells you, I cant do anything for you… except being sad for you not being able to understand your country and the situation.
There is no point crying over spilt milk. Brexit is done, whether its good or bad, its what the people voted for and we need to get on with it. Our relationship with France is strong and long-lived, and in defence we are the only two nations within Europe that can project power globally. We reamin two great nations, the global pioneers and advocates for plural, democratic governance. We stand together for all that is good in this world, for freedom and justice, and we need to remember that when gigantic autocracies like Russia and China threaten the world we… Read more »
Em, only just over half of people who voted actually said to leave. The rest said stay. What’s done is done tho.
We will always be close to the countries in Europe it’s geographically impossible to move away from them. With our locations and shared values etc we will more often than not share the same values and goals
I hope we do go for a no deal BREXIT with the EU as we would be free of their nonsense. We now trade more globally then we do with the EU. It would be the EU’s loss. Please do not pretend to understand the UK better then a British national.
Err, last time I looked at the map the UK is in Europe, we are just not part of the EU – there is a difference. MBDA is a ‘true European missile partnership’ and both the UK and Italian branches of MBDA are involved in the CAMM programme.
I think perhaps you miss the point being made by MBDA – Poland is getting a true partnership, including significant work-share and full technology transfer. You don’t get such things when dealing with the USA. Weather the UK is truly ‘European’ or not is just semantics. Also CAMM is very versatile – it has a very short minimum engagement range (<1KM) due to the soft launch, and it’s sensor agnostic, allowing to be cued by a wide range of third party systems. And perhaps most importantly for Poland, it’s relatively cheap.
Just wondering but is there any reason we can’t incorporate Aster 30 into Sky Sabre to extend the range?
It’s the hard launch that would be the issue for Aster30. Managing the efflux on launch means having a serious container for launching the missile.
AND this is the genius of CAMM…the soft launch and a very cheap and simple launch container.
Sky Sabre Rafael software/logic based on Iron Dome needs to be updated for any new missile.
Why bother – just Buy the SAMP-T System.
lol…just read your post here…yes, I was wondering why we’re not more in with the Italians and French with this. I’d also like to see MBDA develop a 15-16 cell “Iron Dome” launcher for CAMM….maybe call it Trailer-CAMM…lol.
SAMP-T is long range / with ABM capability (120km), CAMM-ER medium range (70km) and CAMM short-range (40km). Add to that LMM a very short range SHORAD/MANPADS (8km). These are all elements of a layered GBAD system. SAMP-T launchers carry 8 missiles and need heavy trucks and long range radars, CAMM launchers use smaller trucks and carry 12 missiles and also use more mobile radars. LMM is optically guided and can be fitted to small AFVs and even hand held. A GBAD system (as with the Russian well known S400) will have all of these elements.
CAMM-ER 40km, CAMM 25km they are small missile of 160kg and 99kg respectively.
Hi Alex, I think these kms quoted here are being welk under played. Happy to be proven wrong of right on this!
If you get 40km from a 99kg CAMM how much you can get from a 300kg SAM? No one considers CAMM an area missile, neither even CAMM-ER.
Europe lacks air defence systems, even a swarm of drones would destroy their bases . Some researcher said Germany would be in serious trouble if it faced drone formation warfare like Turkey is pioneering. They are moving that now to the sea using drones in the sky and unmanned speedboats with anti ship and air missiles working in synch . Some are able to detect subs even. If Turkey can do that imagine China
Can CAMM & CAMM-ER be combined in the same system. So CAMM-ER for further out threats & CAMM for nearer threats.
Yes, The missile’s guidance and command systems are exactly the same.
Yes same launcher vehicle, same guidance system and CAMM is sensor agnostic – it can be cued with tracking data from any source.
Any idea on how many MBDA Land based CAMM Sky Sabre units the British Army will be receiving with the present order?
16 Rgt.RA is the only unit re-equipping with Sky Sabre. There are words in the DCP about more personnel moving to RA – presumably from the reduced size Ranger bns).
I have been reading the many comments to see if there was answers to two questions that I have. Instead I find lots of comments on the UK, EU and Brexit. All I will add to that is this, the UK is a European nation, a nation for right or wrong left the EU to go its own way independently into the world. The UK is a member of NATO and proudly so and the UK will stand by its European neigbours in time of need, off that I am sure. So all this tooing and froing on who is… Read more »
Yes, the UK “owns” CAMM and jointly “owns” CAMM-ER” so it could charge royalty fees if so disposed.
Yes, CAMM-ER is cold launch.
CAMM of both varieties is a lot less expensive than Aster and has a simpler VLS.
One Anglo/French meeting was cancelled. Not the program.
Interestingly the competition was the Kongsberg/Raytheon NASAMS system (which uses AMRAAM and AMRAAM-ER variant missiles) and the Rafael SPYDER-SR which uses Python 5 and Derby missiles. So probably a combination of CAMM and CAMM-ER, and similar to the Sky Sabre upgrade the Army will get, in’shallah.
I wonder if we put a booster on the rear end of Meteor we could develop a long-range missile to rival SAMP-T / Aster 30 and Patriot / RIM-174
CAMM is short to medium range. It would make sense for Poland (and the UK too) to buy SAMP/T as well for medium to long range defence.