The Defence Secretary is visiting Norway, where he is hosting a meeting of the Northern Group of defence ministers onboard aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The meeting covered the implications of Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, security developments in Northern Europe, and Sweden and Finland’s NATO membership applications.

The Naval Strike Missile is an anti-ship and land-attack missile developed by the Norwegian company Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace.

According to the builders, “the Naval Strike Missile is a long-range, precision strike weapon that seeks and destroys enemy ships at distances greater than 100 nautical miles. The Naval Strike Missile eludes enemy radar and defense systems by performing evasive maneuvers and flying at sea-skimming altitude. NSM uses an advanced seeker for precise targeting and carries a 500-pound class warhead with a programmable fuze.”

A Ministry of Defence statement reads:

“Royal Navy frigates and destroyers will get a significant boost to their long-range precision strike capabilities following a new partnership between the UK and key NATO and Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) ally, Norway. Strengthening defence ties between the UK and Norway, the Royal Navy will receive the Naval Strike Missile (NSM), outfitted on a total of eleven Type 23 frigates and Type 45 destroyers, in a collaboration with the Norwegian government.”

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:

“We have a long history of defence cooperation with Norway. This new agreement cements our partnership with one of our closest allies, whilst strengthening our Royal Navy with a new surface to surface strike capability.”

Replacing the Harpoon surface-to-surface weapon, due to go out of service in 2023, “the world-class anti-ship missile will be fitted to three vessels at pace and will be ready for operations onboard the first Royal Navy vessel in a little over 12 months. The collaboration will result in more ships equipped with the highly sophisticated naval strike missiles which in turn will contributes in enhancing the security in our common areas of interest”.

 

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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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eclipse
eclipse
1 year ago

Very good. This is all I can manage for the moment.

Nicholas
Nicholas
1 year ago
Reply to  eclipse

Pithy!

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  eclipse

😂… too right.

Julian
Julian
1 year ago

What happens to old missiles when they get phased out? I suspect the answer is “it varies” but I’m thinking specifically of Harpoon? Will they be life-expired at time of decommissioning and not be of much use for anything other than recycling the metals and safely disposing of the explosives or could they be sold on to less affluent friendly nations (with US approval I assume)? We’ve certainly sold on some pretty clapped-out vessels in the past so am wondering whether anything similar ever happens with missiles.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

I think Ukraine could think of some uses for them. 😉

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Nail + head

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago

👍👍

grinch
grinch
1 year ago

Don’t you mean hammer?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Yes I missed out the vital extra word

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Via Poland! The aircraft version of the NSM is part of the advanced armament of F-35 Lightning II, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen and NH90 multipurpose fighters. In 2008 Poland concluded a contract for the supply of ground-based NSM missiles, which it plans to use for the protection of the Baltic Sea coast. Under this agreement, in 2012 the Polish Navy will receive a coastal defence missile division consisting of two batteries equipped with mobile NSM missile launchers. The location of the division has been chosen as the location of the Semirovica Research and Development Division. The cost of the contract amounted… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Plus!

“The US Navy (USN) has confirmed an initial operational capability (IOC) for its High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability (HAAWC), paving the way for a fleet introduction on the Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft.”

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defence/latest/haawc-torpedo-wing-kit-achieves-ioc-with-usn

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Janes paywall strikes again. 😖😖
Found good article in seapower magazine though.

farouk
farouk
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

David,
The warzone reported on the same subject

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

More in depth too. 👍

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

We’ve got to get some of those. Looks like a no brainer to me.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

How sad

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Yes. But need them to be able to use Stingray – still a top asw torp.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Mk54 from the USA and Stingray to be fitted at a later date due to cost as I recall?

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Excellent. This gets better and better. Lets get another 6 Poseidon then fit them for NSM and this high altitude anti sub weapon. Result. China and Russia peeved off.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

The Best Solution along with drones in the future for carrier close support.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

P-8 is not getting JSM at present.
Its not funded.
Australia was looking at it back in 2015, but has since opted to go down the LRASM route.
Seems JSM on P-8 is a non-starter until someone funds it…
And that won’t be the UK.

Same story with JSM on F-35B…needs someone to fund it. Hopefully the Japanese or USMC will…but we won’t.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Perhaps a well designed ‘Go Fund Me’ campaign effort? 🤔😉

DJ
DJ
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

The most likely funder for JSM on P8 is Norway, as the have now started getting their P8’s delivered. Anyone else prepared to contribute, would, I am sure be welcome.

F35B integration is automatic, once it is integrated on F35A for external carry. I don’t see them doing F35A internal only. It is part of the whole F35A/B/C package idea. It’s no different to integrating on F/A18E & F/A18F.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  DJ

The Norwegian’s have had years to integrate JSM on different platforms (and NSM on helicopters). They haven’t done 1….despite the fact it has limited sales. They won’t finance an expensive integration effort for the number of P-8 they’re buying.

The only reason its getting integrated on F-35A was because it was written into the purchase agreement for Norway.

JohnF
JohnF
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Looks interesting but how do they detect the submarine whilst flying at altitude.?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  JohnF

A detailed reply! Hope this helps

https://navalpost.com/how-do-aircraft-detect-submarines/😉

John N
John N
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

That photo you have posted has nothing to do with Poland.

The vehicle is in fact an Australian Bushmaster, the Ute variant with the box launchers is known as the StrikeMaster:

https://militaryleak.com/2022/03/17/thales-australia-unveils-bushmaster-with-launcher-for-kongsberg-block-1a-naval-strike-missile/?amp

Again, nothing to do with Poland, why put the wrong photo?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  John N

As an example digger, nothing more.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

The Polish Version At Their Test Range!

DJ
DJ
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Is it just me, but there seems quite a difference between the Australian & Polish versions. Does the Polish example include something extra like integrated radar or something? One is a 4 wheel 14t MRAP, the other is a 6 wheel truck which may even have dual wheels on the back two axels (can’t quite tell via the pic).

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

“The aircraft version of the NSM is part of the advanced armament of F-35 Lightning II, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen and NH90 multipurpose fighters”

JSM will be integrated on the F-35A. AFAIK Rest of the list is bullshit.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

In what regard?

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

None of those applications are funded by anyone apart from F-35A. MH-60 will also get NSM (not JSM) for the Indian and USN.

Everything else is fantasy at the moment until someone stumps up a lot of cash and pays for it.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Thank you for the update 👍

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

I suspect it’s already planned and that probably why the rush and 12 months is a major rush.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Yep this must have been on the cards for a while.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Hmmm…perhaps, as a favor to UKR, pre-load the coordinates for Sebastopol harbor? Not to give them any untoward ideas…😁

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Plus Novorossiysk wouldn’t want anyone to feel left out. 😁👍

Last edited 1 year ago by David Steeper
FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

👍👍

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

…Sevastopol…fat fingered, again …🙄

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Hi David, Apologies, I posted “How Sad” to you instead of another! Yes, very good article.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

No worries.👍

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Totally. I think there are still some of Moskva’s sister ships afloat.
Give em all to Ukraine let them do their thing.

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

100%

Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

Indeed. Send them to Ukraine for “forwarding” to Russian forces occupying Ukrainian territory.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank62

I think the urgency in getting three vessels equipped within 12mths suggests to me that they if at all possible indeed will be checked over and supplied to Ukraine in a timescale starting likely shorter than that.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

No.

If NSM was coming from anywhere it would be the Poles or USMC, who already operate land batteries equipped with it….

These are definitely for the RN.

There is no evidence that Ukraine needs NSM. They’ve already got the Russian’s combat ineffective in the Black Sea…

Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Hi Rudeboy. I think subsequent posts have detached our thread from it’s origin. We’re referring to the introduction of NSMs for RN escorts possibly freeing up the donation of the existing RN Harpoons to Ukraine.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

In the army, we fired them off (eg Rapier) at targets on a range before their expiry date.

Mark Franks
Mark Franks
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

It’s a cheaper way to get rid of timex missiles plus load of fun too.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

It would be a waste otherwise, training and entertainment or pay for disposal.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Crews get very few opportunities to fire live missiles – much better to fire them off in training scenario than to pay a fortune to scrap them in a factory.
I seem to recall a story that army Rapier gunners averaged firing just one missile a year during their posting with an AD Regt.

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes, but if you’ve ever had to police the brass and then clean the infamous gas plug of an SLR… Mine mysteriously turned to single shot before exercises…

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  David Barry

Ah, gas plug of SLR – I cleaned that many times from 1975-late 80s, possibly before they issued Scotchbrite. So much hassle from such a small thing.

Aethelstanthecurious
Aethelstanthecurious
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I was a territorial engineer at the time and when doing basic training could not understand why those gas regulators were so crap. I thought it was because I was not cut out to be infantry in the middle of a freezing January night.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Or give to Ukraine to make more artificial reefs of the Russian navy

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Yes that’s also environmentally sound as we need more reef habitat.

Steve R
Steve R
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

They’ll be used to rapidly convert Russian ships into submarines.

David Flandry
David Flandry
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve R

😂

Marked
Marked
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

Donate to ukraine. Might as well fire them off at anything Russian that’s in range.

Ian Skinner
Ian Skinner
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

I recall some have already been sent to Ukraine.

JohnM
JohnM
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

“Missiles? – that’s landfill mate, skip 7…”

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

They get scrapped. The length of time a missile can be kept in service is dependent on a lot of factors. How its stored for example (temperature/humidity etc.), national safety standards, how often it has been mounted and moved around (this is particularly important for air to air missiles whose life is severely affected by being flown and exposed to G-forces, hence why you rarely see live missiles being carried except when really necessary). But also the manufacturers tested and stated maximum lifetime. You can refurbish missiles, so called re-lifing, to extend their life. This is essentially a total rebuild… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

The Ukrainians are using Soviet era munitions: so older and more unreliable that NATO stuff would be for sure.

Sometimes the issue with remanufacture is cost certainty. If you take something to bits and replace bits as needed it is impossible to give a fixed cost. Whereas the new buy can give a fixed price.

Equally as you say buying the newer model can have a lot of advantages with better sensors, processors, storage, uplinks, control servos etc etc which can lead to better range when taken together.

Tomartyr
Tomartyr
1 year ago

I’m not sure Ukraine needs Harpoon. Moskva was sunk with Ukraine’s longer ranged Neptune and, after some ships spent trying to convert Snake Island into a Slava class, the rest of the black sea fleet has been cowering in Sevastopol.

Maybe the recent drone attacks on Sevastopol will force the fleet to Novorossiysk? It seems like Ukraine has already won the naval war.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Tomartyr

You may be right.

On the other hand Ukraine is begging for missiles and it gives them another missile battery to put somewhere….

I don’t see them saying no.

I think Harpoon has a longer range than Neptune BTW?

Steve
Steve
1 year ago
Reply to  Tomartyr

Ukraine hasn’t completely won it, as Russia continues to fire missiles from it’s black sea fleet and is able to blockade Ukraine. However their effectiveness has been hampered by the loss the of flag ship and turkey refusing to allow Russia to send extra ships.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve

My point is – would a slightly longer range AShM actually put the whole Russian, Black Sea, fleet at risk?

It might push them even further away from the Ukrainian mainland and so put more of Ukraine out of range.

Whichever it is good for Ukraine as it creates a large sterile zone.

The other thing we now know is that Russian CIWS is useless against relatively primitive missiles.

Julian
Julian
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Thanks for the detailed and informative reply. As already mentioned by many others, in this particular situation a donation to Ukraine might end up more appropriate than following more usual procedures, but it was the standard practice (usual procedures) that I was most interested in so I learned a lot from your post. Thanks again.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Pretty much all of the above. Harpoon explosives, both warheads and rocket boosters will have additives in the explosives to make them safe to handle and improve storage times. All explosives have them and over time the additives deteriorate and the explosives become more sensitive to shock and handling. The deterioration is determined by testing the explosives over set periods of time and checking how much of the additive remains. this is done by taking a small sample and doing chemical and gas chromatography testing. You can plot the loss of additive on a graph and its a pretty much… Read more »

Henry Lamb
Henry Lamb
1 year ago

11 vessels? That’s even better than previously touted. Fair play! Although 12+ months for the first 3, wouldn’t call that pace?

Last edited 1 year ago by Henry Lamb
Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 year ago
Reply to  Henry Lamb

You have to have the ship in the yard (slotting in to both the ships deployment schedule and the yards work schedule), make physical alterations, wire it up to the bridge with possibly a new control station and update the ships software then test it out. Its not like the days where you just bolted a different AA gun to the deck.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Henry Lamb

Well I’m no expert but such things to me seem to take a few years to come to fruition normally and these missiles are in demand to other users. It’s why there has been on here bemoaning the delays knowing that Harpoons end of life is so near. Think we all expected yet another break in the capability.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Henry Lamb

In the MOD 12 months I would call fucking ninja fast with Speedo’s on! 12 months is proper pace mate!

James
James
1 year ago
Reply to  Henry Lamb

I dont see how you think its slow? They dont sail them to halfords to superglue a few LED’s on and turn them around.

Expat
Expat
1 year ago
Reply to  James

Second aisle on right next to the batteries 🙂

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts
1 year ago

This is shocking. We were told Sea-Ceptor was all we needed, and that anti-ship missiles on ships were a deal-breaking danger to civilian shipping.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago

Not sure where you got that from Comrade. I have never read that on UK defence journal.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

It was in the comments.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Older missiles like Harpoon, GB has talked often of this. NSM is far more advanced.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago

Do you know what model of seaking helicopter has been provided to Ukraine?
I would assume it’s either commando or the search and rescue versions.
Hopefully there are quite a few with hours on them that can be donated. So far I read 10 sets of crews, maintainers have been trained so far.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

No idea mate. I’d assume that too, the ASW versions are I think long gone save for the odd instructional frame at places like Sultan.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Radar homers with no data link are a hazard to shipping as you cannot control what they are going for. A data link is a must nowadays

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago

Who told you that?
The fact sea ceptor can attack ships is a bonus not a replacement for a long range anti ship missile.
The danger to commercial shipping comes from older anti ship missiles that cant tell the difference between an enemy ship and a civilian ship.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Quite

I think this is really more to do with adding land attack capability as well.

So if a land battery takes a pot shot it is in the knowledge that it will probably we wiped out.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

“If a ship-fired missile hits a civilian ship, we will lose the war. We can only rely on submarine and aircraft-fired ordnance.”

That has been said here and on the Thin-Pinstriped-Line. Those that have said that sort of thing should own up to being wrong.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago

The problem is the over the horizon kill chain when engaging a fast moving warship thst doesn’t want to be fired at. if off-board targeting isn’t available at long ranges through sending secure datalink tracking and targeting information back to the firing warship. If this missile can do that, then great.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago

Yes that has been said in the comments. As it stood with harpoon on the ships couldn’t be used to shoot at a enemy ship that couldn’t be seen. The model used was only really useful in open ocean with no other ships around. Now with this new Missile it brings options to the table. The preferred option will still be to hit a big enemy ship with a heavy weight torpedo from a sub as it guarantees it’s sinking. If the missile works as advertised that it can go 50+ miles and only hit the types of ship that… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Picking NSM, was in my view the only realistic option for the RN. As it a dual role missile, so can be used against ships. But perhaps more significantly it can be used against land targets with pin point precision. I think this was the main reason why it in particular was picked over other missiles such the RBS15 etc. Is that it only locks on to a target it has positively identified against a library image. The two-way data-link also helps in this matter. If it fails to find its target, it has the ability to loiter, but also… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by DaveyB
grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Can only have pin point precision against land targets if it’s given pin point targeting information. What will provide that?

Deep32
Deep32
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Our friendly US NRO I would imagine! Back when we were lobbing Tomahawks around much of the targeting data was provided by the US.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

A combination of an inertia measuring unit and GPS will guide the missile along the waypoints to the target. It can also get mid-course updates via data-link. But finding the target in the first place can be done by numerous sources. A sniper team acting as a forward observer. A UAV providing optical imagery. An RC135 Airseeker or E7 Wedgetail using inverse synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) techniques to recognize targets on a digitally mapped battlefield. Or simply using satellite imagery. Not forgetting perhaps the ship’s own helicopter, providing over the horizon targeting along with mid-course updates. The addition of the… Read more »

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

So the Americans then, per @Deep32

DJ
DJ
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Any idea where they are at with back porting the RF seeker from JSM? Konsberg say yes, it will happen, but I haven’t seen any timeline published as yet.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  DJ

Kongsberg are focused on developing the JSM first. As they have been contracted by Australia to firstly integrate the missile on F35, F18 and the P8s. As part of the deal, the missile is being upgraded with BAE (Australia) RF analyzer. Kongsberg aren’t that big of a company with enough capacity to do two streams of development. However, Kongsberg have also stated that the NSM will also get the upgrade as a batch 2 version. They have not stated a timeline for it though. So it might become available as a modification once NSM is in-service. There might be a… Read more »

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

If the RN did hit and sink a cruise ship full of people it would be a war loser…harpoon was quite capable of doing that. The discussion was alway aircraft and sub launched weapons are preferred…yes still the case….If your frigate has a kill chain on an enemy’s frigate then they probably have the same on you and it’s going to be a bad day….better to sneak up on them with a sub or aircraft and kill them without your frigate ever engaging or being put at risk.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jonathans
DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago

I’m sorry but you really need to think through your statement. What is the difference between a ship launched anti-ship missile and an aircraft one. For Harpoon, the only difference is the ship launched version has an additional booster rocket. To get it out of the canister/VLS cell and to get the missile up to speed, so that the turbojet can start.

Agreed on a missile hitting a civilian (non-combatant) ship. This is the reason why NSM was chosen. See my earlier reply to your comment above.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 year ago

I have said it and its true.
I am not wrong. I maintained Harpoon and know the system.
Shoot Harpoon in a busy waterway, at range and you cannot guarantee what it will hit. Subs and aircraft can do positive target ID and ensure its not a civvy ship.
Only with a data link or an IR target library on a missile can you ensure it wont go for a civvy ship , only for a legit target.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Sorry, it has been said in the comments for UKDJ. Not in the main article.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Believe it was Gunbuster, in a post on another thread, who stated (in paraphrase) that distinctly different ROEs could exist for Police Actions as opposed to Global Warfare. Guessing from hints dropped that Gunbuster may have ultimately been at the CPO level. Learned early in career that senior NCOs truly understood policy better than many officers. 😁

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

NCOs and Warrant officers…

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Correct, the UK rules of engagement (ROE) are very specific about using lethal force in peacetime. In general you can only use it when you have either been fired upon and can positively identify the threat (shooter). Or that the threat poses an immediate threat to life, whereby no action apart from lethal force will stop them. Therefore you can fire first for example if you see someone bringing a rifle up to the aim and they have ignored your warning or there is no time for a warning. This rule also was used against spotters in Afghan. Although the… Read more »

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

RN was never going to be given authority to fire a heavyweight AShM outside of WW3. Hence why Sea Skua was so successful. People often forget we’ve had 6 heavyweight AShM over the years…Martel, Sea Eagle, Exocet, Harpoon air-launched, Sub-Harpoon and Harpoon itself…the total number of these missiles fired in combat = Zero….meanwhile Sea Skua which could be used in a tight ROE situation has had 10’s of combat firings and has been a superstar…thats why the RN prioritised its replacement over heavyweight AShM Even the USN has struggled to find an opportunity to fire Harpoon. And when it has,… Read more »

Deep32
Deep32
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Ref Sub-Harpoon, much would have been dependent on where the targeting information was coming from. We always used to practice 3rd party targeting with Nimrod’s/Helicopters back in the day.
They wouldn’t have used one if own SM sensors detected the target, we would have launched a couple of spearfish.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I finished at the top of the tree as a WO I will have you know!

SteveP
SteveP
1 year ago

I was called an Armchair Admiral for questioning the omnipotent judgement of the Royal Navy that SSM’s weren’t needed when I-SSGW was cancelled

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

Your oversimplifying the discussions that were had by quite a degree. Like most questions in life there is not a right or wrong answer just options, shades of grey and whichever side of the mountain your looking at. The discussions your talking about revolved around the value of heavy weight anti ship missile on an escort vs getting an anti ship missile for F35B and typhoon. The discussions were not around the values of a strike missile as there was no individual suggesting that was not a good idea….thought they can be the same missile doing two jobs ( as… Read more »

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Well explained mate 👍 Anti ship warfare is a very complex business.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

You are being extremely unfair. There were some that simplistically dismissed ship-fired anti-ship missiles, and NO ONE countered them. I have quoted from a post verbatim. Read it. Oh, and this missile existed at the time of all those arguments. I do not remember seeing any post by certain people saying “this missile would be nice to have”. Not even for land-attack. If you yourself said otherwise, then credit to you. Me and other people kept quiet because we did not want to be ridiculed. Before I left this site previously, I wrote a very long “I am wrong about… Read more »

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago

I doesn’t matter if some people say what you write is wrong if you believe you are correct. There is often no definitive right or wrong answer just view points.
My view point was that as it stood with the current harpoon model it’s was never going to be used over the horizon especially when other weapons are available.
I still believe the NSM missile won’t be fired in the general direction of ships without a positive ID on the target and check no other civilian ships are in the area.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

Hi defence, as I said I don’t generally think anyone is wrong. There is very rarely any truly right or wrong answer to anything, just options, views and opinions. i don’t think it’s wrong to have a decent new and clever heavyweight antiship missile On escorts I just think practically speaking It’s a lower likelihood need than other things…but as has been point out by a couple of commentators even if it’s just there because everyone else has them ( a form of willy waving) that’s actually valid as a deferent. my personal veiw is that for strike ( land… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 year ago

Unfortunately we often go over the same old ground, and there are going to be arguments where you’ve given your opinion on the subject before and can’t be bothered to do it again. I don’t need Daniele to post to this announcement to know he prefers air-launched, because he’s said it several times before. I think not replacing Harpoon was nuts, especially when the brass then went on to whinge about increased lethality, but I don’t see air-launched missiles as an alternative to ship-launched, especially in cash terms. Besides, we need both. I thought the plan had been to upgrade… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 year ago

You were not the only one who who advocated the need for ship based ASuW and got it in the neck. It was like a Mantra that the best and only sane option was to put these missiles were on Typhoons and F35’s and not on ships. My argument was that we station ships in many areas where there are no airfields nor carriers, so what do we use. We put HM ships in harms way, they need to be able defend themselves. The answer is of course we need both capabilities, but perhaps until we do actually have sufficient… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago

If I can butt in here and correct you. I can tell you that I’m definitely one of the “AShMs on ship brigade” and have been for all my time on UKDJ. I think you need to read more posts more carefully and across many articles. There are many others like me, many more learned than me too and many others of different views. But it’s all good and in the mix. In the end sensible weapons choices have to be made and somebody has to be responsible for the having it or the not having it. I think as… Read more »

DJ
DJ
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

A ship has 24/7 presence. No aircraft does. If you have enough planes, you can approximate it, if not far from base. A carrier of course is a mobile base, but the oceans are big & carriers few.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago

That’s the beauty of Kongsberg’s NSM. It currently uses a high resolution imaging infrared (IIR) sensor to identify its target. It uses this sensor to compare targets to library images of the correct target, before locking on to it. However the future version will also have a development of BAe’s passive RF sensor, that analyzes radio, radar, data-links etc to also identify targets. The NSM meets the Royal Navy’s peacetime rules of engagement (ROE). Whereby you can only attack a target that that has been positively identified as a threat. The majority of missiles that use only a radar sensor… Read more »

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

How will the mother ship positively identify the target?

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

By lots of means. If the target is at sea, ie another ship and within visual range, not a problem. However, if the target is beyond the horizon, the ship has a number of means of pin pointing the target. The first obvious answer is by using the ship’s helicopter. Which might soon be backed up a UAV operating from the ship. Where both can provide imagery back to the ship. Also with radar data from either an airborne active radar or what has been detected by the aircraft’s passive electronic surveillance (ESM) equipment. The ship itself using ESM can… Read more »

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

So could the library be fooled by making the ship look a bit different? Sheets of tin foil down off the mast type of thing. Obviously that’s a very basic and stupid example but hopefully it gets what I mean across.
Change the shape of the ship a bit.
I will admit I don’t know much about how the seeker works on NSM

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Possibly. Imaging infrared (IIR) sensors work differently to infrared sensors in that they are more like a thermal camera. The light is focused on a charge coupled device made up from a grid of pixels. These allows the IIR sensor to generate high resolution images of a target. So much so that features on the target stand out and are clearly identifiable. This allows the missile to not only recognize the target when compared to library images. But to also aim for those specific features on the target. BAe have shown that IIR sensors can be fooled. This was demonstrated… Read more »

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Missile incoming. Deploy the tin foil😂😂

DJ
DJ
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Once the RF seeker comes on line, you have the added problem of also fooling it at the same time. NSM is also stealthy & completely passive, so you would need to be quick with the tin foil.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  DJ

Tin foil lol.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

So send a slow and vulnerable helicopter with a radar that can be detected from dozens of miles away, to take a photo of the target so that a super state of the art, sneaky missile can come zooming up to the ship unawares? Or ask the Americans if they would kindly use one of their surveillance satellites to determine if any ships are around and what they are? Might as well ask the US to sink it too. Or ask the RAF with one of their P-8’s based in Scotland to kindly overfly the target and once again take… Read more »

DJ
DJ
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Just like for underwater, libraries pre-exist & are constantly updated. A great deal of time & assets are dedicated to this task. If you can recognise a T23, then it’s either UK or Chile. T45, it’s UK. If it’s a FREMM & in the Pacific, likely French. The missile will fly to where it’s told to & start searching. If it finds a F100 or Anzac, then it won’t engage unless the missile operator really stuffed up. It can be told to engage a target list, so you don’t need to be 100% sure if it’s a T23 or T45… Read more »

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Helos have ESM. A ship has ESM. With 2 ESM receivers you can locate a target.
The EOS on a Wildcat is scarily good and can pick out targets at a ridiculous range. Its also passive so you are not transmitting on anything.
All 5 Eyes ships share Int info about shipping on the oceans . ROSAT, shore detection, aircraft detection, ELINT is also included. That info is readily available onboard and is a good pointer to where certain vessels are at any time of the day.

JamesF
JamesF
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Can use helo or UAV for over the the horizon targeting if alone, also sattelites and ISTAR aircraft or drones. If part of a task force then add carrier air, helos and drones as well as networked surface ship and SSN ISTAR assets.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago

GB has explained many times that older missiles like Harpoon can be.

Julian
Julian
1 year ago

Can the launchers be cross-decked in a similar way to Phalanx? If yes then would 11 sets essentially be kitting out the entire active escort fleet on the basis that, excluding a war-time surge to get pretty much everything deployed, 11 would be enough to equip all escorts on active deployment or working up to a deployment at any given time plus maybe even a few sets left over for vessels in port undergoing maintenance but available at short notice or will the systems be on a strict unchanging allocation to specific vessels?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

That, I suspect, is the idea.

Given that there are currently 6 T45 (two are in bits in dry docks) and 11 T23 that are notionally in service.

Allowing for the usual rule of thumb that 1/3 are too out of service to be generated as a force, deep refit etc, then miraculously you arrive at a number of 11 sets needed!

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

Yes they were certainly proposing and doing this on LCS

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian

The RN will need rather more than just the launchers on a ship to be able to use the missile system and only 11 sets have been ordered….

Jim
Jim
1 year ago

11 vessels is way better than the 5 previously outlined. Also was never originally planned for t 45. I’m guessing the number 11 is because longer term it will be 6 on the T45 and cross decking 5 on to the T31.

NSM will give us commonality with US which also probably means it will be around for decades. “It’s A great compliment for us for the heavier FC/ASW weapons.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Long term that makes real sense.

Interesting what RN will put into the Mk41 VLS on T26 then?

In the short term 11 sets is 2/3 of the number of surface combatants that we have 6 T45 + 11 T23….

So either way the number works.

Deep32
Deep32
1 year ago

The Mk41 VLS – what goes in it? This has always been open to lots of speculation on the various sites. Posters all have their favourite options, unfortunately for us, for the most part the MOD remains fairly tight lipped on the subject, so we all wait.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Deep32

In the current and likely future strategic situation ambiguity is going to be making a comeback.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Deep32

What goes in the mk41 launchers. Extra bog roll on long deployments.
We may see them empty to start with. But the possibilities are lots of things. 24 new anti ship missiles is probably overkill apart from China.
The NSM model being made for the F35 can fit in the mk41.

Last edited 1 year ago by Monkey spanker
Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Then there’s Tomahawks & ASROC.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank62

And perseus/ future heavy anti ship missile.

Jon
Jon
1 year ago

FC/ASW among other things unmentioned. Whether they get canister delivered NSM as well is anyone’s guess.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago

FC/ASW will go in mk41 on t26

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Sure, but they have to exist in an operationally deplorable state!

Jim
Jim
1 year ago

Yes but FC/ASW is suppose to be ready before the end of the decade about the same time as T26 entering service.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago

🤣😂😁

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

deplorable? Freudian slip? Amusing regardless!

Andrew Deacon
Andrew Deacon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Which last I heard is likely to be two separate missiles a british led subsonic stealthy land attack missile and a French led supersonic anti ship missile

Dave G
Dave G
1 year ago

11x T23 go to 10x T31/32?

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Dave G

No 6 will go to T45

Dave G
Dave G
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

I was thinking more that 11 sets would start shared between t45 (6) and t23 (11) and be transferred to the t45 (6) and t31/32 (10). The leaving t26 to carry the heavier fcasw

Angus
Angus
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Wishful thinking as never had that many working at anyone time, 4 sets max would be a positive outlook for this class of warship.

Oscar Zulu
Oscar Zulu
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Also commonality with the RAN. Australia announced back in July this year that NSM would replace the existing 11 ship sets of Harpoon Block II on its 8 Anzac and 3 Hobart class, ultimately also becoming standard armament on the Hunter class (eventually 12 ships with NSM). Australia has maintained an anti-ship weapon (Harpoon Block II also has some land attack capability) on all its surface fleet so there has been no capability gap. Maritime (anti-ship) strike has also been a consistent part of the RAAF capability with Harpoon being able to be launched from the now retired F111 and… Read more »

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago
Reply to  Oscar Zulu

I wonder if the Aussie Harpoons will find their way to the Crimea…?

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Also the RAN and RCN adopting the cannister launched NSM which the RN T26s can too freeing up the MK41s and complement the FC/ASW and whatever else.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago

I must say I am surprised. I thought harpoon would have it in the bag due to it being an interim missile only needed until 2028 when the new super duper missile is meant to be ready (can’t remember the name(. This will mean new canisters, new software, new land based training etc etc.
I wonder what the cost is going to be? I’m going to guess £225m for everything.
And fitted on 11 ships. I presume it’s going to be 8 per ship. So 88 + test missiles.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I was surprised as well but it makes sense as neither T45 or probably T31 will have VLS to accommodate FC/ASW. This will no longer be an interim solution but a secondary solution.

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Yes. As it always should have been.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Good point spot on.

gh
gh
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

The missile will be VLS launched and is compatible with the American Mark 41 Vertical Launching System (to be fitted on the Royal Navy’s Type 26 frigates) and the French A70 Sylver VLS

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  gh

Being compatible is not the same as being qualified.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

That is a good point and makes sense for after 2030 for the non mk 42 equipped ships.
A more depressing thought could be that the future anti ship missile is getting canned or paused until after the land attack missile is ready.

Expat
Expat
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I wonder if $ exchange rate made NSM more attractive. The Krone has tracked the £ and decreased against the $ over the past year. Anything sourced from the US is expensive right now.

Jason
Jason
1 year ago

I cannot believe that someone has actually made such a remarkable decision in buying this splendid Norwegian missile – whatever happened ?

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason

Isn’t it wonderful when we don’t have endless committees discussing if the previous committee got its ‘non’ decision right. First Wedgetail now this, eminently sensible decisions that some will whinge about not being down to a formal competition but we all know are the sensible solutions. Not yet convinced that the ‘super duper’ missile will be ready by 2028 but now we have a good long term solution for present and future ships that won’t get it anyway. Has someone with half a brain taken over or is just the usual for Britain piss arsing around only happens when faced… Read more »

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 😁

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Uhh…the name is presumably Ben Wallace, plus a few reasonably intelligent blokes down at the Admiralty. Jeez, you Brits don’t cut other Brits much slack in the defense arena, do you? Hell, in the US, if we get it right by the third or fourth pass, it’s back-slapping and high fives all around! 🤔😳😁

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Hey only low levels of praise allowed in any aspects of life. Makes brits feel all awkward if anything above a “good job” comment is said. 😂😂😂

Last edited 1 year ago by Monkey spanker
FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

😁

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Yes but to be fair the US has money to piss away on any old thing it fancy’s….go to the moon hell yea…600 hundred ship navy come on Soviets keep up ( whoops your bankrupt shame for you).

Lets spend as much on one destroyer as everyone else’s spends on a 70,000 aircraft carrier….lots of money…..makes for less angst.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

May be an apocryphal story, but a senior officer once stated to me that Rand Corp. had advised Ronnie Raygun that he could outspend Soviet Union in defense realm into bankruptcy. Thought provoking…🤔

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Other than your imagination do you have a source for that please?

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

No, simply my recollection of a conversation from 30+ yrs. ago, no idea where this officer is now, or even if he is still alive. My guess is that he read a Rand report generated sometime in early to mid nineteen eighties.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

You really are a miserable depressing pointless person.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Ketchup, daddies or Brit squaddies special “source”?

Alex
Alex
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Sounds like a reference to the “Strategy of Technology” report by Pournelle et al. Available online here: https://www.jerrypournelle.com/slowchange/Strat.html

Pournelle was a military analyst and SF author. He was also part of Reagan’s “transition team” if I recall correctly.

Alex
Alex
1 year ago
Reply to  Alex

Relevant quote “There are no battles in this strategy; each side is merely trying to outdo in performance the equipment of the other. It has been termed ‘logistic strategy’. Its tactics are industrial, technical, and financial. It is a form of indirect attrition; instead of destroying enemy resources, its object is to make them obsolete, thereby forcing on him an enormous expenditure….”

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Alex

Yes, it is certainly possible that my source could have misremembered his source as a Rand Corp. study. It was simply a snippet of a conversation that for some reason intrigued me. Never pursued a quest for the source, probably because at that point in the career, I was usually up to my ass in angry, hungry alligators. 😳

geoff
geoff
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason

Agree Jason and surprised that the response here has been generally so muted. I thought there would be more cheering ringing from the rafters that this huge gap in capability is not only being addressed but so quickly!(was going to say expeditiously but sounds a bit pompous)😁

Steve R
Steve R
1 year ago
Reply to  geoff

We’re British; our response to everything is muted 😜

James
James
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason

Could also be a sign of not being in the EU anymore, having to cooperate on various programs for R&D and procurement or simply being forced into opening every single project up for every company within in the EU to bid on to keep things ‘fair’.

Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago

Yes! About time too.

Harry Bulpit
Harry Bulpit
1 year ago

This is simply brilliant news and quite unexpected. It gives ne hope as I know the government has said in the budget announcement that it is re looking at the SDR.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago

Great news. Good work Ben Wallace. Made my day. Commonality with the US and 3 ships equipped within 12 months.👍
What with the order for Boxer remote turrets, Kongsbergs star is in the ascendant.

Ron
Ron
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Paul, which remote turret for Boxer has been ordered?

At the moment the RN seems to be getting a good Christmas, T26 Batch II, check, Fleet support ship three off, check, anti ship missiles, check, more F35Bs, check plus some other goodies.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Thanks for posting link; still unable to determine whether this contract portends the mounting of a heavier caliber weapon system on selected Boxer variants. Thoughts?

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

My understanding is that the normal weapon mounted by a RS4 is a 0.50 cal machine gun, but that it can in addition mount either a grenade launcher or a brace of Javelins. I also believe that the US Crows program will be based on this turret – just renamed.
Kongsberg sell other remote turrets, some of which mount the 30mm cannon.
https://www.norwaynews.com/kongsberg-to-test-protector-rt60-remote-turret-mounted-on-boxer-8×8-armored-vehicle/

Last edited 1 year ago by Paul.P
Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Kongsberg website says that the RWS can accomodate everything from 5.56mm LMG to 30mm cannon. Remote turret is different and can take heavier cannons – but article in Paul P’s post says MoD has bought RS4 which is a RWS, not a remote turret.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Nevertheless, presume that the 30mm cannon would not be the worst option ever purchased by British Army, if ordered for selective Boxer variants?

Graham
Graham
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

So long as it was stabilised, it would be ok offering an improvement over the unstabilised 30mm cannon on Warrior.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes, I was a bit slack there. The Kongsberg naming convention is clear RS for remote system, RT for remote turret. The RS4 we have ordered is not designed to take a cannon. I think the RS6 is.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

No, it is just for the .50 cals I think?

Jon
Jon
1 year ago

Think Defence had a good piece on what could be mounted on an Kongsberg RS4 (as integrated by Thales). It mentions a British company, Venom, that does a Low Recoil 30mm that might be okay for the RS4, but 50 cal, Javelins, 20mm guns and 50mm grenades are all a goer.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2022/06/beyond-the-boxer-50-cal/

Last edited 1 year ago by Jon
grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

Not a British company anymore. Israeli now.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron

Santa, or St. Nicholas (not certain which appellation is preferred in the UK) has certainly treated RN well during 2022. Perhaps Army and RAF in line for gifts/treats in 2023? All the good children have to be treated equally, to forestall any chance of jealousy. 🤔😳😉

Ron
Ron
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I hope Santa has a big bag as the next tens of millions has also been allocated for Tempest. It also looks as if the RAF/FAA will get more F35Bs than thought. As for the Army well not sure what they might get but I know they are looking at the K9, it is expected that over the next ten years the army will get about £40 billion in new kit, it started with the new Apache fleet, CH2 upgrades, Land Ceptor, Boxer, Ajax (which GM can still not get right), ISR, M270 upgrades and some more goodies. Our Ben… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron

If he becomes unemployed in the future, please send BW across the pond to us.

Agreed, pairing a Ford class w/ a QE class should be sufficient for sea-lane control in any area other than SCS. Hopefully, Congress ponys up the requisite funds for full replacement of Nimitz class, plus a growth factor, to account for scum-sucking, slimeball ChiComs.

Ron
Ron
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Well at least we have some one right. Speaking about carriers how about the idea of a Ford with two QEs. The overall cost would be cheaper. A QE at surge can take 70 aircraft or 110/120 sorties per day and for every Ford you get 5 QEs. As a mix for a strike group it works with cost savings. As for BW, I would hope he stays where he is, he is doing a bloody good job. Served in the Scots Guards as an officer, mentioned in dispatches (no idea what that means in the States) and retiered from… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron

Thanks, wasn’t very aware of BW’s background. He is one of a very few politicians whom I have been instinctively impressed by. Thought there were articles promoting his eventual accession to NATO Secretary General? Presume that might be a suitable reward, although he seems to thrive in an operational setting.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

BW’s record in NI as a young officer was excellent. I suspect the Tories will lose the General Election in 2 years so hopefully BW will get that top NATO job then.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

BTW, should state for the record that I am operating outside my wheelhouse when I speculate how USN CVNs and LPDs/LPHs may be employed in combat or how they might be paired w/ QE class. Do know for a fact that there were elements of US defense establishment that were pleased and relieved when QE class achieved IOC. Believe the terminology used was “two more for the good guys.” Believe USMC has stated publicly it wishes to maintain an active relationship via cooperation on QE class deployments.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

There was specifically articles from joint chiefs of staff in early 2000’s specifically stating that they intended for QE class to slot in with US carrier rotation to relive pressure. In order to do this the ship required to have space for 36 fixed wing aircraft which was the normal compliment for a Nimitz class at the time (3 * 12 F18) That along with the deployment of F35B on LHD is one of the main reasons the US stoped deploying a carrier to 5th fleet. The US plans for CVN after USS Doris Miller become very patchy. Fords are… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

You aren’t the only one. Even the USN are just coming around to the idea of pairing CVNs with “assault carriers”, at least publicly. I suspect the trials on USS Tripoli earlier this year must have been very impressive to make them ask the question.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Don’t be crazy man, if the US defence budget was run by someone who could actually budget then America would be so powerful it would have to leave Earth and move to Mars 😀 you may not be aware but US defence contractors are actually working for the CCP. 😀

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron

The Ford class, in addition to several hundred B-21s, may be enough to give ChiComs cause to pause. Then again, it may not…🤔

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I doubt it. The South China Sea is too important, it has become their main fishing ground and they have a lot of mouths to feed. I won’t be surprised to see Chinese oil/gas exploration/exploitation happening in a much larger scale in this area. Their Coastguard has effectively kicked out the Vietnamese and Philippines from fishing these waters. Taiwan will always be that boil that needs lancing. They are getting closer to be in a position to blockade Taiwans eastern seaboard. But they don’t have the depth, yet! I think the biggest issue may be the border to the north.… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by DaveyB
FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

There is a small part of me that would believe that would be just desserts for Mad Vlad and the slobbering Orcs, although the rational part realizes this would not be good geopolitical juju. 🤔😳

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

The really interesting but unspoken question from my perspective, is what would happen post a hypothetical USN loss of one or more CVNs w/ escorts in a conflict in SCS? Certain that it would be a POTUS level decision, and the choices would span the entire option set. 🤔😳

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron

I think BW is only good with the backdrop of the absolute clowns that make up the Tory party front bench. He earlier made a commitment to 3% and he’s folded on that.
Labour will leave the defence budget as is because it’s right down at the NATO minimum spending level and no British party will ever break that.

However labour is significantly more stable which means you won’t be getting a new defence minister and SDR every 5 minutes which is exactly what the MOD needs.

Expat
Expat
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Problem is they may play the same trick as the Tories and chuck something else in the defence pot, Tories may do that before they’re out also and of course it won’t be reversed by Labour Thankfully, Labour made the carrier contract impossible or too costly to cancel. Hopefully the Tories have done the same with T26,31, Tempest, FSS, Dreadnought etc. Labour may need to find more cash to invest in energy projects with Shell and now SSE reviewing their investment plans for the UK. Defence is an obvious place to look and with yards being busy building ships freeing… Read more »

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Expat

Labour has the same issue with defence the Tory’s have with the NHS, it’s budget is safe in terms of 2% but that’s it. Not much appetite in labour for boosting foreign aid budget either.

Expat
Expat
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

And with NHS budget nearly tripling in tge past 20 years it’ll bankrupt the UK in the next 20 unless politicians can have a sensible discussion instead of using it as a political football. Save our NHS by keep chucking money at it will not save the NHS ironically.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Unfortunately, BW is not the lead dog on the sled team, and if you’re not top dog, the view is always the same.

Believe BW plays the hand dealt to him as well as anyone could to outflank rhe opposition in bridge it would be called a finesse.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

… outflank the opposition, in bridge ..🙄

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

No Santa, it’s the Grinch he has given lost of presents to the Navy and he is just about to give the bill to the Army and RAF. It has been the other way round since 1945 so time for a change 😀

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

By and large, it’s Father Christmas over here

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Most say Father Christmas, but increasingly our youth have been Americanised and say Santa. I too hope that the RAF and Army do get some new kit in time for the next war.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron

Boxer has been or will be ordered to meet many roles – originally it was to replace Saxon (APCs) and residual FV430s (multiple roles/variants) and then it was to equip 2 x Strike brigades, since reduced to one (1st Deep Recce/Strike BCT).
Now much more recently Boxer is to replace Warrior (IFVs and other variants), so those Boxers replacing WR IFVs all need to have a stabilised cannon (30-40mm).

Bringer of Facts
Bringer of Facts
1 year ago

I was hoping the RN would opt for the RBS 15 Mk 4 which has a longer range and bigger warhead.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago

Uses a radar as its main sensor. So no good for peacetime ROE.

Moonstone
Moonstone
1 year ago

For a relatively small country I must say that Norway’s defence industry punches well above it’s weight – by all accounts NASAMS is performing very well in the Ukraine and as we see here NSM is doing good business too.

It would also be nice to see a few ground based NSM systems deployed to the Falklands I think.

Steve
Steve
1 year ago
Reply to  Moonstone

No need, the Argentine navy can’t even counter a 500lbs bomb from a typhoon.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Moonstone

Yes between them and what a gulf between them in many ways, Norway and South Korea are really showing us just how you can run successful defence businesses which in many cases we have decided a Country our size is incapable of supporting. Really does show us up especially the ‘No Can Do’ philosophy present here far too much of the time. It’s generally the exceptions that prove the rule here with things like CAMM, T31, T26 and Martlet showing the way it could and should always have been.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

To be fair I don’t think either could come close to a program like Tempest.

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Yeah that’s going to work out great for the UK…… We have been down this road before.

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Jeez, Esteban. Just how empty is your glass? I’m starting to worry about you.

Blessed
Blessed
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

You are a miserable little so and so aren’t you?

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

We’ve all been down your road pal…..followed by breakfast, hence your froth and anger.

David Flandry
David Flandry
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

How long has Tempest been in the works now….and when will it ever result in an actual aircraft….

Terence Patrick Hewett
Terence Patrick Hewett
1 year ago
Reply to  David Flandry

Tempest is on track and meeting it’s targets. These projects are highly complex and take decades to develop. Only non-engineers ask the silly question “when.” Because whether it takes to the air is a political decision, not an engineering decision. And as things stand in world security, the future of the airforce is Tempest, no matter what govt. is in power.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  David Flandry

BAe are talking about a flying demonstrator much like Typhoon’s EAP by 2025/6. Building the aircraft is relatively simple. It is the avionics and systems integration that will take longer to sort.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  David Flandry

As I posted a few days ago!

18 Jul 2022

“A new flying demonstrator will be unveiled within the next five years as part of the UK’s major next-generation fighter aircraft programme, the Future Combat Air System. It comes as the future combat air programme launches a new recruitment and skills initiative known as Generation Tempest, set to create thousands of new job opportunities across the United Kingdom.”

https://www.raf.mod.uk/what-we-do/team-tempest/news/uk-builds-momentum-on-combat-air-programme-with-demonstrator-set-to-fly-within-five-years/

David
David
1 year ago

At last. this situation should never have been allowed to develop.

Nicholas
Nicholas
1 year ago

There are some on here who believed that the lack of an anti-ship missile was tactically understandable and prudent. Perhaps they might see this development as a waste of money.

Seriously though this has to be great news (although the capability should have been a given) and the numbers of ships to get them is very welcome and surprising.
Additionally whilst I don’t like his politics Ben Wallace is quite the best SoS for Defence that we have had for some time. I particularly like the way he gets stuck in with the various contractors and stake holders.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicholas

Does anyone really think it good not to have an anti-ship missile?

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Some claimed the Astutes were the true ship killers… despite all their other urgent tasks. It seems our surface ships were to just run away from danger assuming they could actually detect it at any given time.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Based on Falkland experience lots of ships armed with ASM, non engaged. Submarines and aircraft did all the killing.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Good to look back but we have to adapt to the present and look further into the future. No time for under arming so few of our expensive ship assets. 1-2 more subs and a few more P-8s would be nice in the mix too.

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Could we just stop with the Falklands thing it’s over 40 years ago. Not really relevant.

David Flandry
David Flandry
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

😅

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Unfortunately not. It was, until the Ukrainian War, the only recent conflict where two Countries properly slugged it out, that were of comparable strengths.

To many lessons have been learned due to the Falkands War that cannot be ignored, even if was 40 years ago. So it will always be used as a reference.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Don’t bother, he has found a pair of British Army socks in his laundry again and now got another angry piss on! Mrs Esteban is adamant she bought them from an army surplus store…….but….

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

😂😂

Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

It’s the last RN major action with comparable technologies, so I think it is still relevent. Politically & strategically it need never have been fought had we not planned to withdraw our token deterence/presence. That made Galteiri think we’d fold to an easy fait accompis. I think that lesson & many other from the sad affair are very relevent. Russia probably never would’ve invaded Ukraine, again, this year had NATO not run down its forces so far.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

I think that was when the last serious naval battle happened so I am not surprised we revert to it to draw lessons.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

All previous war is relevant due to the ability to learn from it! Oh dear the subject matter escapes you again!

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Very true. But what would have been the difference, if our surface ships during the Falklands War had something like the early version of Tomahawk land attack cruise missile (TLAM)? The Argentinian position would have been very tenuous after a few missile strikes against their air defenses and ammunition dumps. A precision guided land attack weapon that can be fired from surface ships, has been missing from the RN’s inventory for decades. Where the RN’s focus was predominantly ASW. Then leaving land attack to our slowly decreasing numbers of SSNs. I believe meant they had to re-evaluate the order of… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Agreed. I’m sure the land strike capability is what made the decision to finally buy a ‘AShM’ happen.
NSM on the frigate component of the littoral strike group is a significant increase in its credibility.

Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

If we had Tomahawk at the time we’d have easily attacked the Argentine mainland airbases that caused us so much harm.

Frank62
Frank62
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

We lost 2 ships to ASM, Exocets destroyed Sheffield & Atlantic Conveyor. Had the Argentine navy succeded in breaking through closer to the task force we’d have seen Exocets used to take them out, hopefully before they could fire theirs. ASMs are a vital part of modern escort armanent. Only HMG lap-dog spinning suggested our atrocious gapping & delaying any interim capability was a good thing.
If I recall correctly, at the time Conqueror sunk the Belgrano, the other two subs had lost their Argentine navy groups, but thankfully the loss of Belgrano made them abort their attack.

Last edited 1 year ago by Frank62
Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

We have 6 (out of 7) Astutes? One will be defending the CASD SSBN. Maybe 2 are alongside for maintenance? So 3 potentially available to cover ‘the Seven Seas’.
Not a very big anti-ship force for Global Britain.

I am not impressed that our warships method of defence is to run away.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

5 of 7 Astute, as of current date. There is hope for future expansion of flotilla w/ SSN(R), courtesy of AUKUS.

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Yeah that’s funny…. Please explain the rationale behind that. That would happen in your lifetime.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Believe the number 8 has been stated as a preliminary estimate for planning purposes for SSN(R) class. If the design process is handled well, and the cost for a common modular design is spread across three navies, and skills of Barrow shipyard not permitted to atrophy between completion of Dreadnought class and SSN(R), there might be surprising synergies and cost savings available. 🤔

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Esteban,

The real and presumably viable roadmap for future submarine acquisition is currently slated for OOA March 2023. A mere four months away; a little patience please, then it should be revealed in print, and not simply my attempt to connect the dots.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I see he/it has turned his sights on you mate…🙄

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Esteban is just upset, please ignore him, they have run out of heat at the Troll farm in St Petersburg after the gas explosion and his boss has not be able to steal any more money from the Russian army catering service.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

He is just grumpy yet again as he found another pair of British Army issue socks in the laundry……..again!

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Only 5 – even worse than I thought. I recall that we had 28 attack subs (SSK/SSN mix) in 1982.
Good to hear that AUKUS will operate a tri-national S/B flotilla – but that would complicate tasking?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I am not impressed that our warships method of defence is to run away.”

It’s not, mate. 😆

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago

Agreed. I was just going back on Spyinthesky who made the comment. Sorry if that was not clear.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

No worries mate.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Astutes are the true submarine/warship killers. That’s the sole reason they exist. The best tool for the job. It’s designed for that very job to hunt down and if necessary, destroy the enemy.

Simon m
Simon m
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I did think protecting the deterrent & countering enemy SSN/K was a reason they exist

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Yes, I believe that is indeed RN doctrine and has been for ages, though I do not think running away is the right word.

This missile has Land Attack capability too, the real plus.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Ship launched anti ship missiles have never been used by a western navy if any navy. If your close enough to get radar lock your ship is also in range. Personally I think we should have them but they should be dual purpose for land attack which is probably more likely to be used.

SteveP
SteveP
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Harpoons were used by the US Navy against the Iranian Navy Operation during Praying Mantis. And before anyone shouts up about how that was 30 years ago, it was 40 years ago that a submarine sunk a warship and none of us think that means submarines aren’t still relevant for ASuW

Last edited 1 year ago by SteveP
Paul
Paul
1 year ago
Reply to  SteveP

Thanks for pointing this out, people forget history too easily. The USN also used several SM-1 missiles in anti-surface mode against Iranian ships During Praying Mantis as well. Interestingly an Iranian ship also shot a Harpoon at US ships during the same scrap, thankfully it missed due to chaff.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  SteveP

Good point SteveP

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  SteveP

Am I not right to say both ship launched harpoons missed and it was the aircraft launched that actually hit.

SteveP
SteveP
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

I think that you are right though the SM1’s fired in SSM mode did hit. Your original point was that they’d never been used though. In fairness, I’m not trying to pick a fight as I agree with the point you made that a captain has done something wrong if he’s come within range of another ships SSM’s. However, that’s the point of them in that they create a sterile zone around your ship that hostile vessels won’t come into. That’s exactly what Ukraine has achieved with it’s land based SSM’s; a sterile zone around its coast. Mind, two Russian… Read more »

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  SteveP

I’m all for them as well however I do understand the navy’s willingness to let the capability lap, rarely used, specialist weapon that’s very expensive.

That being said things like satellite targeting are probably a game changer for ASM however I still think it’s a role that should be served by a combined land attack cruise missile but it’s certainly a must have even as a secondary weapon.

Marked
Marked
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

The same can be said of any weapon system until the first time it is used. When the need for that first time arrives I can guarantee nobody will question the wisdom of having said weapon…

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

It’s the additional ability to strike back on sea and land and complementing the Astutes.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Your first sentence Jim – perhaps the reason for that is that there have been precious few naval battles since ship-launched anti-ship missiles were fielded. Makes sense to me that surface combatants should be able to engage enemy naval vessels – bizarre if they can’t.

I agree with the dual purpose point – and that they should be long range.

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

There has been more than we might image though, we had to gut the Iraq navy in GW1 but we found helicopter launched weapons much better. In Falklands it was submarines and helicopters. I think we should have them but I still think a ship launched ASM is a secondary weapon.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

You don’t hear much about engaging the Iraq navy in GW1 – was that a big deal?
This is very interesting to have this perspective as I am an ex-army man – we would never think a tank crew would regard destroying enemy tanks as a secondary role.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

You’re forgetting the first time that Western Nations sat up and took notice of anti-ship missiles, when they were used to sink an Israeli ship. The SS-N-2 Styx was fired from two Egyptian Komars patrol boats at the INS Eilat (late HMS Zealous) destroyer in 1967. The first two missiles nearly cut the ship in half. The third hit the sea, whilst the fourth hit the wreckage. This was despite the ship having radar directed guns, that should have been capable of intercepting the high subsonic flying Styx. But the ship’s radar failed to detect the incoming missiles soon enough.… Read more »

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Western nations sat up and took notice of anti-ship missiles years before that…..24 years in fact…

When they were being targeted with HS.293 off Anzio and elsewhere..

Problem is they forgot…and no-one built anti-ship missiles for some time after the war…

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

HS 293 in Biscay.
While technically not a missile since it did not had propulsion the amour piercing Fritz X guided bomb sunk Italian battleship Roma with 2 hits.

Marked
Marked
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicholas

Seems the navy don’t agree with many of the posters on here who believe our handful of subs can be everywhere at once…

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Marked

That is not what was actually said, but never mind…

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicholas

Agreed, believe BW’s competence seriously underrated in home market. US should be willing to trade for future draft choices plus cash on the barrel head. 🤔😉

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicholas

It is possible to have a navy without heavy anti ship missiles. If you are using the on board helicopter to provide targeting data for the anti ship missile you can launch weapons from it.
The anti ship missile gives an extra option but it’s not the only option.
The NSM is still a subsonic missile that maybe can be countered.
It is a welcome addition to the the navy.

Steve M
Steve M
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

The biggest problem with that is if a helo is close enough to carry out target evalution and provide targeting info it will be within the SAM envelope! would like to be in a hundred and fifty knot helo against mach3 sams? If the helo is there better it launch it’s own ASM and duck back below radar horizon. Of course a stealthy UAV might be an option to loiter just above horizon.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

The opposing ship must first be able to detect it. NSM uses a passive imaging infrared (IIR) sensor. So it won’t give away its position unlike a radar guided missile. Which can be detected by the ship’s electronic surveillance equipment. Secondly the NSM is a low observable missile. It uses contour shaping to minimize its radar cross section. Thereby the ship’s radar will find it pretty hard to detect as it pops over the horizon and screams in at 5m or less above sea level. This means by the time the ship’s radar could detect the missile, it may be… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

You can use a camcopter to provide targetting data, but the heaviest weapon it can carry is a Martlet and probably not at the same time as radar. As we move towards increasing deployment of ISTAR UAVs, we can’t always expect the same platform that handles targetting to be able to carry/fire the right weapons.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jon
Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicholas

With Harpoon, we didn’t have an effective kill chain to engage a hostile warship over the horizon. You would need an off-board asset like a drone or a helicopter to send targeting information over a datalink back to the warship to be able to fire at extended ranges. These new weapons have lots more options, and ISTAR is more important than ever. They would still be more effective under the wing of a F35B or a P8. The land attack capability of NSM really gives our escorts more options. I was one who questioned the need for ship mounted Anti… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Robert Blay.
Simon m
Simon m
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I would just add if I may littoral strike closes down the range & brings a multitude of targets as we have seen in Ukraine vessels can be struck in port.So in context of RM LRG/LSGs a great asset. As for ship to ship as you’ve said there’s more ISTAR & satellite targeting is now a thing so not so easy to hide. The missile is passive & hunts IR images using AI to target weakest points on whatever vessel it’s attacking. It is also able to be helicopter launched so potentially if RN wishes in the future you can… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Yep, with you on that. Ship vs ship ASM slug fests with the Soviet navy I do not believe was RN doctrine and still isn’t for the technical issues you and GB have highlighted many times. The Land Attack side is a real bonus too.

I still call for the ASM on a jet as priority.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Hi Robert, I have been of the opposing position, but I’ll caveat that with the anti-ship missile must be dual use!. In that I have always believed a warship must be able to stand on its own two feet (pardon the phrase!), when it needs to engage an enemy, wherever it finds itself. The reason for this is that it may be off the Horn of Africa, where there is no local air or sub support. So must fight with what it has to hand. Yes, we have Wildcat with Martlet and Sea Venom. But to fire these, the helicopter… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Hi Davey. Can’t argue with any of that mate. That’s a good example of how useful having this kind of weapon system can be. 👍

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Very easy to argue against it because it completely glosses over the need to locate, id, & fix the target. Mr B, says that in his scenario, the first AB’s were not able to destroy the enemy radars “because they kept moving around” but the second could destroy them because of its super duper precision missile. Then goes on to say that T45’s & T23’s would have the same problem as the first AB but everything would be immediately solved by fitting NSM’s. That’s BS. How did the AB’s determine where to fire their missiles? and does the NSM armed… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 year ago

I am yet again pleasantly surprised and shocked that HMG is making a series of Big, expensive and completely correct announcements re the RN. I don’t know how he is getting all this done and I don’t care as long as it all happens but Ben Wallace is shaping up to be the best Defence Secretary in decades. As for the announcement I’d like to know if “a set” of NSM’s is 8 ? On the surface it look a bit short on overall numbers but 11 is about right for what we actually need. Given that we have 6… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Once BW is able to make all the correct weapon acquisition decisions, what in the world will we discuss, cuss and debate? Heaven forfend–a deafening silence? 🤔😳😉

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Oh you really don’t know us do you !!

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

🤣😂😁

Ianb
Ianb
1 year ago

Good news. Additional capabilities are always welcome. The ones going onto the T31, is that an extra capability up from when they were originally announced?

RobW
RobW
1 year ago
Reply to  Ianb

Yes, T31 was announced with “just” a 57mm main gun, 2x40mm bofors, and an underdetermined amount of CAMM. It now seems they will inherit NSM mounts from T23s as they go out of service. Plus, the RN have openly said they are exploring mk41 for the T31. It isn’t known if that is still a priority now that they will receive NSM. All we need now is a hull mounted sonar.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Ianb

It’s not been announced that the T31’s will be getting NSM so you might be getting a little ahead of yourself.

Shane Ramshaw
Shane Ramshaw
1 year ago

Nice to see we will have the ability to actually sink other ships again and not just ponce around looking pretty. Additionally my understanding is the Naval Strike Missile is supposed to be a pretty darned good piece of kit.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago

This is very positive news for the RN, especially the land attack capability. But as with all anti ship engagements, how does the kill chain work when targeting a fast moving warship operating well over the horizon without off-board targeting? Maybe someone better qualified can explain? I haven’t looked up the full capabilities of the weapon.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

This has always fascinated me with missiles such as Meteor and Brimstone tbh esp if the former were ever beyond our imaginations adapted to a surface based system like NASAMS exploits and now that Brimstone 2 is being supplied to Ukraine too with its ability to self select targets somehow. Have done a bit of research on the matter but not at all qualified to answer it but yes these long range surface to surface missiles really are asking that question even more so aren’t they.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

If you are targeting a fixed target, then it’s not a problem. But engaging a fast moving warship over the horizon at 80/100 + NM is another thing all together when radar can’t see over the horizon at sea level. It can be done with off-board targeting and tracking from a drone, a P8, a helicopter/F35 or another warship that is much closer to the target, and tracking information can be shared over secure data link’s back to the firing warship. But if you don’t have any of those assets available, it’s a tough job. This is why ISTAR assets… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Robert Blay
JamesD
JamesD
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Global hawk has been over the black sea everytime an attack happened 🤔

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  JamesD

That could be the answer. A role our new Protector UCAV’S will know doubt undertake.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Would it not depend on the angular field of view of the missile’s seeker? Just back of fag packet musing, a target vessel travelling at 30 knots say would transverse about 3 miles in say 6 minutes which for the NSM represents a range of about 50 miles. So the seeker would need to capture a field of view of 3 or 4 degrees and then compare the image with its target database. Thinking about how good the seeker technology is on devices like Pirate and missiles like Asraam I’ll bet that can be done. Once the ship is acquired… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I think once the missile has acquired the target, then it’s a done deal. It’s getting the missile to the correct bit sea over 80 odd NM’s away. Mid course guidance must play a big part.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

A few tracking examples can be found here. “Kleos’ satellites offer the Navy something more than just the contents of RF signals from shipping. Its constellation orbits the globe in “clusters” of four satellites. This means that each cluster of four can triangulate the position of a received signal, yielding accurate RF geolocation data. If a vessel turns off its AIS transciever – or simply does not have one, like a smuggling vessel or small fishing vessel – it could still be found by its other RF transmissions.” https://maritime-executive.com/article/u-s-navy-uses-satellite-tracking-to-find-ships-by-rf-emissions LRASM “The LRASM sensor uses semi-autonomous guidance and target cueing data… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Nigel Collins
grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

American examples not UK.

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Who said there won’t be off-board targetting?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

Because off-board targeting is a relatively new concept. Because for it to work, you need secure 2 way datalinks.

David
David
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Some of the Internet pages about the weapon suggest it has an in flight data link which I assume means it can be updated as to what particular box of sea the warship is operating.
Wedgetail , crowsnest, F35, River Joint could potentially spot a ship from hundreds of miles by radar or elint?
An Astute wanting to remain invisible could pass its sonar track via periscope to satellite to friendly assets?
Ukraine may have been given some help finding Moskva by the constant number of NATO. surveillance assets.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  David

Just shows the importance of ISTAR these days and secure networked capabilities. The recent live firing off Scotland recently involved sharing of data between assets to fire Harpoon. Impressive technology

Last edited 1 year ago by Robert Blay
Deep32
Deep32
1 year ago
Reply to  David

If an Astute had the unit on sonar, it wouldn’t pass any info onto friendly assets, it would dispatch said ship with a Spearfish, that after all is their primary role.

David
David
1 year ago
Reply to  Deep32

Probably, though if the Astute was tracking a far juicier target ( or inserting a team of SBS on a coastlin) , it might prefer not to risk its own detection and let something else deal with a frigate?
The sub documentary showed the crew picking up a Russian SSN approaching UK waters. It stated stealthy and let the Type 23 scare the Russians away.
I assume an Astute can get a track on a surface target at a far greater range than a Spearfish torpedo can travel?

Deep32
Deep32
1 year ago
Reply to  David

Our SSN’s are tasked with sailing into harms way and dealing with it, its their function. Any frigate might not be the primary target, but would also be dealt with as required. The last thing a SSN would do is potentially give away its position by transmitting to an external source. Trust me, they don’t, they deal with the situation, they are well used to playing the loner without support. WRT your last sentence, all depends on the target, a warship is generally far quieter than a merchant ship. A SM is generally quieter than a warship. Spearfish has a… Read more »

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago
Reply to  Deep32

Could we just stop with the astute thing and the maybe two that the UK could actually deploy. Their role is not to sink half-assed Russian surface ships if it is the UK has completely missed the point.

Deep32
Deep32
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Glad to see you are still contributing to the debate, not.
If you don’t like what’s being posted fella, go elsewhere, you and your comments won’t be missed, honest.

Sean
Sean
1 year ago
Reply to  Deep32

I understood that the Astutes primary role is hunting enemy submarines, though I’m sure enemy surface vessels are fair game too.

I assume this is what Estoban was referring to, though from his posts he’s so deranged/drunk that in addition to being unable to articulate this properly he also can’t count…. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

Correct. It is the best ASW asset we have. We only need look at their role in the Cold War vs Soviet SSN and SSBN, that will not have changed.

The service has also had the TLAM mission too so with NSM having that too, good stuff. I’m unsure of the comparison of the two though regards range I assume TLAM has greater reach.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago

TLAM has at least twice the range of NSM. Which at near 500km depending on the flight profile isn’t bad. Giving the RN a lot of serious options.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Ok smarty pants let us know what the submarines role is.
Their is no point posting saying someone is wrong without posting why you believe they are wrong

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

You bloviated for years about how the Royal Navy Daddy did not give you the technology to f*** around torpedoing Russian frigates. You are supposed to be in the Arctic or the North Atlantic or maybe making sure that the special arrangement deterrent could get to see. Even the Royal Navy has now determined that the b******* that has been posted on there about anti-ship weapons was a mistake. Just eat it.

RobW
RobW
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

I don’t recall anyone ever saying that the RN shouldn’t have anti-ship weapons. Many, myself included, stated that with limited resources we’d prioritise air launched anti-ship missiles if we couldn’t have both in the short term.

I don’t understand the anger. Why get all frothy over it when it seems the RN isn’t your country’s navy? Apologies if that was the wrong assumption. I’d like to know what you think your country does better in this regard.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago
Reply to  RobW

“I don’t recall anyone ever saying that the RN shouldn’t have anti-ship weapons. Many, myself included, stated that with limited resources we’d prioritise air-launched anti-ship missiles if we couldn’t have both in the short term.”

Correct, I was one of them, Marte as you may recall.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/marte-er/

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Well I don’t know what that’s even supposed to mean.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

?? Perhaps your sentence should read…’ or perhaps making sure that the Russian (nuclear?) deterrent does not get to sea’? Sorry, found it somewhat difficult to reconstruct your sentence, may have misinterpreted your intent. BTW, are you perchance, dyslexic? Know several intelligent people who suffer from this condition, and find it difficult to communicate in writing effectively.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Oh dear you found another Brits squaddies socks in your washing machine and your angry again! 👜

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

So in your opinion, what is the Astute class designed to do?

James
James
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Not exist because it makes other subs look bad I think.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Telling a submariner his trade is not a good idea….🙄

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Why does this story bother you so much? And really, who do you think really gives a shit about your stupid, incorrect opinions? You sound like a tired, angry Mexican, all piss and vinegar, and signifying nothing.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Oh dear, how sad, never mind!

David Flandry
David Flandry
1 year ago

All well and good but how many missiles will be bought and when?

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  David Flandry

I’m not sure it would be a good idea to tell the world that level of information.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  David Flandry

Well read twice that the missiles will start to be supplied in 12 mths while here it’s reported they will be operational starting in 12 mths which is even more encouraging if correct so maybe you mean when will they all be supplied and fitted?

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 year ago

Very good news. I’m sure the RN are delighted. I was hoping we might go for this. A capability gap filled.

Sean
Sean
1 year ago

In other news, the Mark54 carried by the P-8 Poseidon has become a lot more capable…
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/navy-p-8-poseidon-can-now-drop-winged-torpedos-in-combat

Joe16
Joe16
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

Looking at the USN’s reports on the Mk54 torpedo, I wouldn’t be too enthused (especially as we’re using it on our P-8As). The wing kit is apparently pretty good, but the torpedo has been evaluated as not operationally effective against realistic threats in unclassified US DOD reports, and even the Mod I which is not quite in service isn’t supposed to fix all the problems. We’d be better getting Stingray integrated with P-8A ASAP, I’m sure the Norwegians would be interested. Example report for Fy2016. The following reports centre on the testing for the Mod I, their evaluation of the… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe16

That’s certainly not an encouraging report. Details of the tests aren’t covered but it sounds like it’s only effective if the submarine is not taking any evasive tactics. Would these be actions it would take as standard all the time in wartime, or only those when it believes there’s a threat. If the former then it’s not going to be any use.

Stingray integration would be preferable for the P8, though we know how expensive and how long weapons integration can take…

Do you know if there has been any thoughts on developing a similar wing-kit for the Stingray?

Joe16
Joe16
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

From what I read, they got worried about littorals and diesel electric subs, which is fair enough. Except that HSE said No to firing torpedoes at a manned sub (apparently set-to-hit shots are required along with set-to-miss), potentially because DE subs are smaller than SSNs(?). So they made a steel model of a DE sub, which is static (unrealistic), and probably represents a MUCH bigger sonar target unless they’ve covered it in sound deadening panels. I believe they also said that the torpedo wasn’t very good at following the terrain of the seabed in shallow water, which I guess means… Read more »

NorthernAlly
NorthernAlly
1 year ago

Is it a missle to a canister or will we be getting any extra missles? I’d imagine to test the systems and get the SOP together they will have to fire a couple so will there be missles to replace them?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago

Best news so far today, I’d hoped this would be the one that was finally chosen. I’ve advocated on here many times in the past as it is extremely flexible and can be delivered by Air Land or Sea 😊 The aircraft version of the NSM is part of the advanced armament of F-35 Lightning II, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen and NH90 multipurpose fighters. In 2008 Poland concluded a contract for the supply of ground-based NSM missiles, which it plans to use for the protection of the Baltic Sea coast. Under this agreement, in 2012 the Polish Navy will receive a… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Nigel Collins
David
David
1 year ago

This is good news! So when the announcement says ‘outfitted on a total of eleven Type 23 frigates and Type 45 destroyers’, is that 11 ship sets total or 17 (11 +6)? I assume it’s 11 ship sets? I’m particularly glad to see the Type 45s are included; this with the addition of the 24 sea ceptors, will finally see these awesome ships get some teeth! I’m also hoping the NSMs get cross-decked to the Type 31s as the Type 23s phase out of service. This too will greatly enhance the Type 31s lethality. Well done to all and a… Read more »

Richard Beedall
Richard Beedall
1 year ago

Hopefully we will get more info soon, but I speculate that the UK is being given access to Norway’s pool of Naval Strike Missiles. We will pay a leasing fee, and the full cost of any missiles expended, e.g. for training. The amount of equipment actually being purchased out-right by the UK might be quite small – electronics (command/fire control), cabling, launcher mounts, training, maintenance tools and materials.  That would explain how just £200m will be enough to equip up to 11 T23/45 escorts with the system for 6 (?) years. There might also be some bartering going on – with some UK… Read more »

grinch
grinch
1 year ago

Good thinking

geoffi
geoffi
1 year ago

Fantastic news

Coll
Coll
1 year ago

I’m glad Kongsberg was picked.

Paul42
Paul42
1 year ago

Good news that we are getting something, but NSM has a relatively small Warhead compared to Harpoon, so upgraded Harpoon was a better option, although LRASM was the best…….but, if we had gone for that, many would question why bother with FCASW ?

John N
John N
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul42

Here in Oz, Harpoon Blk II operated by both the RAN and RAAF is being replaced.

The RAN will replace Harpoon with box launched NSM on Destroyers and Frigates, on the other hand, the RAAF will replace Harpoon with LRASM.

Defence is also investigating fitting ‘boosters’ to LRASM for potential Mk 41 VLS launch.

Joe16
Joe16
1 year ago
Reply to  John N

My understanding is that the USN are planning to use the LRASM replacement as a surface and air-launched weapon, so Australia will likely need to foot the bill for VLS integration alone. Unless all this Ukraine and Taiwan stuff makes the USN reconsider.

JamesD
JamesD
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul42

LRASM is only air launched at the moment as far as I am aware?

RobW
RobW
1 year ago
Reply to  JamesD

Yep, although development is happening on a version that goes VLS. I don’t understand the delay though as LM test fired from mk41 back in 2013.

Joe16
Joe16
1 year ago
Reply to  RobW

I think the USN wasn’t interested because they had Harpoon and didn’t see ASuW as particualrly high priority compared to other things. My understanding is that they’re planning to use the LRASM replacement as a surface and air-launched weapon, so Australia will likely need to foot the bill for VLS integration alone. Unless all this Ukraine and Taiwan stuff makes the USN reconsider.

Joe16
Joe16
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul42

Interestingly, the Proposed BlockIII Harpoon had a smaller warhead- similar in size to the NSM, and I think the BlockII-ER also uses the smaller warhead. Potentially 125-150 kg does the job? LRASM is significantly more expensive per unit and is only currently cleared for air launch. Neither the USN or Australians have any public plans to go surface launched. They’re basically doing what we’re doing: Saving the real cross-platform integration for their next weapon (FC/ASW for us, possibly some develpoment of the LRASM for them). So, given that they’ve actually reduced funding for their next AShM the last few years… Read more »

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

I once had girlfriend just like the RN and it’s relationship with Strike missiles…it’s on its…. off again…… it’s on again. All the while knowing it was never going to be a long term thing.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

😁

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Just like missiles so long as she bangs when needed that’s the important bit🙈
Ok ok I’m leaving. Sorry 😂😂😂😂

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

don’t slam the door on the way out,…😂

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Keep the sock close, and the memories closer. Just saying.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  David Barry

Ewww line draw and then so stepped over.

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

🙂 🙂

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

When the door you open is a trap door, the only way is down.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

some people like to go down quicker than others 😂😂

FOSTERSMAN
FOSTERSMAN
1 year ago

Absolute tremendous decision this but the best bit about this is its also compatible with F35, Which can carry internally (game changing) and our P8s.

SteveP
SteveP
1 year ago
Reply to  FOSTERSMAN

I think that only the A and C versions of F35 can carry it internally. I stand to be corrected though

Clueless Observer
Clueless Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  SteveP

Think it’s the JSM that is for aircraft, based on the NSM, not sure if it is ready yet but was going to be carried internally on the f-35A and C…… B will have to carry it on pylons but am not sure if the software has been sorted for it yet or if that is another block 4 upgrade. Would be great to have JSM for P8, Typhoon and F-35B.
Either way this is a great announcement !

farouk
farouk
1 year ago

Thank god

David
David
1 year ago

Very sensible. The last budget didn’t hint at vast defence uplift but some simple gaps could be filled from gear already on the shelf or possibly readily adapted ASTER 30 with ABM capability could be mounted on a truck with an OTS radar same as France and Italy ( or buy the Italian radar. , that would give common missile stocks with the RN. Caam -ER would be a no brainer. Could the Caam-ER booster fire a Meteor missile an incredibly long distance? Could complex weapons include an anti radiation seeker for Meteor to give RAF Typhoons stand off capability.… Read more »

JamesD
JamesD
1 year ago
Reply to  David

The last budget didn’t hint at an uplift for sure but despite the blackhole the previous 16bil spend will be used for something it seems.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  JamesD

I think it is exactly this. Posters forget there was an increase.

I believe a lot of army goodies have yet to be announced too.

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago

Given inflation Daniele, that’s not true, is it?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  David Barry

You can play what ever inflation card you like, Barry. Fact remains the budget was boosted via the longer term agreement rather than the 1 year that Sunak wanted, which would have been dreadful. lnflation can hit when your party is in power too, unless by 2024, as many are predicting, it will have settled, juuust as Labour get in and no doubt take the credit. It will be interesting to see what they do with these spending commitments, even if they are political traps set just as Labour did. Spin it whatever way you wish. Army wise, 6 billion… Read more »

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago

Daniele, my name is David. I’m not spinning anything. Spin is telling the UK we are building 40 new hospitals. We are not. Spin is saying that 30? 40? 50k? New nurses will be recruited when nurses already in place are counted. Spin is telling the UK we are recruiting 20k extra police… the Cons cut 21k Spin is saying railway strike action is a matter for the TOCs and Unions, when many of the TOCs are DOR, and the others now operate not as franchises but to the remit given to them DfT. This Govt is all about spin… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  David Barry

Oh god, i did it again. I’m sorry, David.

David Barry
David Barry
1 year ago

It’s OK Mandy, you don’t need to apologise for being a Conservative.

Daniele, take it easy; we agree on one thing at least, we need a strong, well funded, military.

We both see it and both will work/vote for it.

David

James
James
1 year ago
Reply to  David Barry

When the budget increase (please remember the word increase) was announced no one knew that inflation to this extent would hit due to various external factors. No government has put an inflation linked military budget in place, maybes suggest it for Labour as they love to use a broken calculator and will have no end of fun asking Abbott to look at the numbers again and again.

The US has the exact same issues, what excuse do they have as they cant blame the Tories?

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  James

Brexit !!

Last edited 1 year ago by David Steeper
DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  David

Hi Dave, to answer some of your questions. The next update to Meteor, the JNAAM project, where the Japanese Mitsubishi AAM-4B AESA radar is being fitted to Meteor. Will give the missile a much broader spectrum passive RF homing capability. However, it will need the addition of a GPS receiver to make it equivalent to a HARM. As it uses the GPS reference to work out where a radar was last transmitting from. To home in on to that location. To give it an even broader range of frequencies to operate over will need some developing, but is doable. I… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago

Can we have this in writing please… Lol 😁. Bloody good news and about bloody time and more than the “5 sets” too. I need to sit down. Maybe the air launched version is next? Cannister or vls version or both?

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Morning Klonkie, maybe NZ might be next for the two Anzac.’ As John N says above 🇦🇺 is muscling up in the missile department. Lol 😁

Mickey
Mickey
1 year ago

Maybe add the NSM to this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_DeWolf-class_offshore_patrol_vessel

Throw in a torpedo system too, on account Russia is putting to sea quite regularly in the Arctic Ocean as of late.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago

Unexpected but good news 👍 .Just on another matter hear Ukraine are getting some Helicopters from UK and 10,000 Artillery rounds but was puzzled about AA guns ,can’t really think of any in UK service from my day.Can any of you Guys help me out on this one ?

David
David
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

They could just be buying someone else’s surplus or ordering new.
Lost of soviet era 23mm systems about and I think the Poles manufacture 30mm AA guns.
The UK bought some old Belgian M109s and gave them to Ukraine I think.
Some 3rd parties won’t deal direct, so the UK might just play the middle man.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

I suspect buying Soviet from elsewhere?
RAF Spadeadam has several, all Soviet. I hope they have not sent those as we need them for threat simulation ourselves.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

3 x Sea Kings.
AA guns – I had not heard about that – last guns in British service were L40/70 Bofors guns – must be more modern AA guns supplied by a 3rd party.

Pacman27
Pacman27
1 year ago

Does this also mean we are getting the JSM, also why don’t we use tomahawk for this purpose, which it is more than capable of.. does anyone know the cost of these missiles please?

Joe16
Joe16
1 year ago
Reply to  Pacman27

NSM and JSM are apparently quite a lot less common than you’d expect, although I agree it makes sense to get them. Tomahawk Block Va, which is the maritime attack version, is ~$2M, against NSM’s $2.1M, so not a lot in it (I’m using Wikipedia numbers). Obviously the T’hawk has far longer range, but isn’t stealthy, so potentially not as survivable. Also, I don’t know if T’hawk is vertical launch only or not. If it needs VLS, then it won’t be deployable on either T45 or T23. Interestingly, JSM apparently fits into Mk41, which opens up possibilities for a common… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe16

Kongsberg/Raytheon did VLS trials on NSM a couple of years ago. There weren’t any negative reports, So I take it they worked ok. Which does open up the possibility for a Mk41 T26/T31 fit.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago

Good! As no matter what chuff we throw about, the military is there to kill people and destroy assets and platforms! And to do that the end of the “kill chain” is a kinetic object which blows shit up! Good call, pleasantly surprised!

AlbertStarburst
AlbertStarburst
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

…so often in the UK the mind-set is more about our forces providing target practice for others, and not being actually a serious, dangerous, threat to those wanting to kick off.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago

That statement is completely untrue.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago

Please explain your comment. When I was sent to Afghanistan I did not consider it was so as to give Terry Taliban some target practice.

Bill
Bill
1 year ago

Hard to find any credibility for the in service date. Surely this should be years overdue, and billions over budget? Oh hang on, we’re not making it.
Sounds a great buy but the bunting stays in the garage for now.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

Very good news…I assume that as the T26 will have its mk41 silos, these will end up on the T31 as the T23s are retired.

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago

Well the UK again is about a decade late. They seem to be enamored with taking capability gaps like that. About time but oddly enough everyone on this damn board was all singing the company lion about how they did not need any sort of anti-ship weapons. Either air-launched or surface launched.. seems like the grown-ups in the room decided differently

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

No that’s not true at all, discussions was had on what was most importing in ASuW capability, I don’t remember anyone ever saying air launched capacity was anything other than needed…as for strike again I don’t remember anyone ever saying the RN should not have that.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

And what fabulous weapon system does the navy of your home country deploy?

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

The chips on both sides of his neck….

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 year ago

😄

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

saucy.

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

“The company lion”? WTF does that mean?
If this is a “damn board”, why are you on it talking bollocks?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

I think he means ‘company line’

Ian M
Ian M
1 year ago

I knew that, I just wish people wood cheque there smelling and grandma.😁

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M

Smelling peoples grandmothers is considered anti social especially with a wood. That can get you arrested.

Ian M
Ian M
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

😁

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M

🤣😂😁

geoffi
geoffi
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Great post. I remember the yes men on here too

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  geoffi

There is a coherent argument that AShM isn’t any use against a peer enemy. When the detection is radar horizon limited. If it is a true peer it would be able to fire something similar the other way. What I suspect made the difference was the recent exercise with Harpoon where satellite data and P8 data made the missile usable over the Horizon. That completely changed the usability calculus. The other thing that would make a difference is having a drone with high eyes doing passive radar and EM detection. Has Wildcat got us data link on the QT? That… Read more »

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 year ago

Or a cheap drone with off the shelf ELINT, IIR or even high res TV pack.!? It wouldn’t need to fly at huge altitudes to push the detection horizon out well beyond the 20 miles or so for a ship mounted radar and the navy has been looking at drones quite intensly just recently. Even at 2000′ the horizon is hugely expanded. I used to fly a small home build and was flying to just to the West of Basingstoke on one of the clearest days I have ever seen when I realised that I could see the towers of… Read more »

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

I recommend rubbing some linseed oil into that enormous chip you have on your shoulder.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Have you not eaten that chip yet, it must have burned a hole in your shoulder with all the sizzling…can we not just be nice?

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Esteban

Company lion? Roar and grrrrrr! Hold on, it’s 👜 time!

Marked
Marked
1 year ago

About bloody time! Good news for a change.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

What is good to see is that the Type 45 will finally get to the where it always needed to be. 48 Aster 30, 24 CAMM and 8 strike missiles, with a merlin to cover its ASW weakness, you have a very potent vessel. if the strike missiles also make there way onto the T31s they become pretty potent as well…one of these sitting in a region is a far greater expression of British will than a ship without a strike option. Now we just need to get fixed wing air launched Anti ship missiles sorted out on the F35… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

If I can be greedy fof a moment, I wouldn’t mind seeing them upping to 32-48 CAMM on the T45s if possible and even 2×6 NSM mounts or the ability to have 4×4 NSM mounts if when required? The T83s are still a very long way off and no new news on the FC/ASW yet. Okay, I’m finished. Lol 😁.

RobW
RobW
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

T45s are getting NSM as far as I understand it. 11 vessels will be equipped, which suggests 6 x T45 and 5 x T31 in the long term, with a mix of T45 and T23 before then.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

That is quite greedy.

But let’s face it that make T45 a real proper heavy duty destroyer that can destroy air/land/sea targets.

Backed up by the best AAW radar system out there.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Personally I think we should lever the hell out of CAMM, the whole point of it being cold launched and radar agnostic is it’s cheap, yet very effective. As it’s also got the ASuW option putting large numbers on all escorts seems sensible. 48 CAMM and 48 Aster 30 would be an idea fit. Getting a good number of strike missiles would make our escorts even more of the deterrent ( 16 strike missiles is a lot of threat).

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Absolutely! CAMM, CAMM-ER, CAMM-EX, CAMM-EW. Stick them everywhere.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jon
Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Totally agree with you on a 48/48 fit out. I’m no naval engineer but there does seem to be a lot of available space and options for this and1-2 MK41s, which as part of the original design was pretty forward thinking (pardon the bad pun) for then. Even the NSMs will be more compact and lighter mounts than the Harpoons. Post PIP these T45s will still have 10-15 years of service life left in them so why not make them as effective as they are truly capable of and not just 1/2 or 2/3 more of what they can be?… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Agreed, as ever MR Sensible post. I’m reading far too many recriminations against those, including me, who understood the rational for not prioritising an ASM on an escort. The reasons went way over too many posters heads.
This news is great, LA capability too.

Last edited 1 year ago by Daniele Mandelli
Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

being a cynic maybe this is what you get with a really weak prime minister who is beholden to a few senior figures…BW ..we are buyIng this…PM really…Do we have to…BW yes…or I’m off to resignation land….PM ok…BW we’re having 11…..PM sad face.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jonathans
Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

I don’t think it went that way at all. The Chancellor decreased the budget for next year, so getting programmes started now will cause an issue for the post-election government in 2024.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

Ah so it’s an orgy of buy now pay during the next labour government. I’m pretty sure labour did that to the tories last time so fairs fair.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

We do have a pretty major European war going on?

So buying limited numbers of useful weapons doesn’t seem crazy to me.

I’m pretty sure that Harpoon will go to the Ukranians and this is more of a backfill.

I suspect the previous plan was a Harpoon upgrade as it was quick and cheap.

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

don’t disagree, but I can still see BW just telling the PM it’s happening or else.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathans

Maybe.

I doubt spending £200m needed the PM’s sign off.

For once we do have a guy in Treasury who gets defence. His dad was an admiral….

Sean
Sean
1 year ago

Good spot! I didn’t know Hunt’s father had been an Admiral and CINCFLEET. Hopefully he’ll tweak his son’s ear if he ever tries to reduce defence spending.

RobW
RobW
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

That really would shake Jeremy up given that his father died in 2013. Let’s hope he pays him a visit 😂

Sean
Sean
1 year ago
Reply to  RobW

Well the ghosts of Xmas past and future worked for Scrooge so 🤷🏻‍♂️

JamesD
JamesD
1 year ago
Reply to  RobW

😂😂😂😂 shouldn’t laugh really rip but that was damn funny

Jonathans
Jonathans
1 year ago

I did not know that. To be honest Jeremy Hunt is one of the politicians I really rate. If I go not agree with his policies, I do tend to think he’s doing them for the right reasons. I also think he was a competent minister of state for health who actually sorted a couple of key structural issues in health such as acute hospital care at weekends… senior Drs all fucked off at weekends and left it to junior staff..it was a constant issue for those of us looking at safer hospitals and he took the Medical profession on… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago

Believe your assessment is correct.

Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago

Very good news… it was getting very embarrassing watching RN ships shadowing Russian ones without any credible weapones…

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

They didn’t have any credible weapons pointing at use neither.

David Craig Stevens
David Craig Stevens
1 year ago

Take all the old Harpoon missiles ordinance and ground mount them on armoured vehicles give them to the Ukraine to use up against the Russians.. a bran new rocket artillery system for the Army.

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 year ago

Good news.

Tho tbh I would rather have had improved ASW across the fleet as a higher priority. The T45s haven’t even got a supported sonar I believe – appalling. And Merlin numbers need boosting as do Wildcat ( which could be fitted in some cases with FLASH). As for T31 that desperately needs a credible ASW fit.

Angus
Angus
1 year ago
Reply to  OldSchool

True the ASW needs and capability need to be greatly improved, Merlin fleet expanded to give another couple squadrons and say pass over the Army Wildcats to the RN and fit them with radar. The Army can catch up with something more suitable for their role. The Fleet needs to be able to take out all possible targets both at sea and land and this new fit delivers on both counts. And its more than capable of taking out a warship as once that is blind it is no longer a threat to you, you dont always have to sink… Read more »

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 year ago
Reply to  Angus

Agree. Especially regarding army Wildcats. I’d even take a few troop carrying Merlins and convert to ASW. A tough choice but a much better use of the Merlin airframe imho.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Which troop carrying Merlin’s would those be?

All the RAF ones went to RN there are some stripped frames in storage. But they would effectively be new build as everything useful has long since been removed for STOROB.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago

Which are in store SB? Some ex RAF or you mean the other HM1s?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago

The other HM1’s which I think we discussed before.

I would be too surprised if a project came to pass to resurrect half a dozen.

It fills a gap but without the costs of a new type.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago

All the RAF Merlins were converted to the Jungly version for CHF. There are 6 to 8 Merlin HM1s mothballed and robbed blind for spares that are in storage. These are the ones that could be rebuilt to HM2s.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Those are the ones I wanted for a dedicated ASCS squadron, like we had with 849.🙄

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 year ago

I was thinking of those in CHF. But it seems from here that some stripped down frames are available ( as you and others have mentioned) so they sound like a possible starter for rebuild etc. Certainly I hope we can all agree that ASW must be a key upgrade priority for the fleet. Just pray MOD realises this.

Russian surface fleet is a busted flush tbh and the most likely major threat faced by western fleets are sub-surface ( subs, mines, seabased infrastructure security) etc.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  OldSchool

What would the CHF use instead? I get the rationale though with the critical shortage of ASW Merlin after they cut the force and got rid of the ASCS Sea Kings too leaving Merlin to do both.

The planned drones I believe will share the load regards find/fix.

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 year ago

Mmm. Blackhawks👌.

Andrew Rothon
Andrew Rothon
1 year ago

Good news
The RAN has already ordered the NSM and if the Ukraine has taught us anything – its common ammunition avaliability.

On 5 April 2022, the Federal Government announced the accelerated acquisition of the NSM to replace the Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile on the Royal Australian Navy’s ANZAC Class Frigates and HOBART Class Destroyers.

Rugger-13
Rugger-13
1 year ago

At least the RN will have something soon.

I hope this for 8sets of cannister NSM per ship and not 4 or 6.

All the T31 should also have these fitted when they come into service.
Plus we need air launched JSM for the P-8 Posiedions and F-35B Lightnings (externally as it’s too long for the weapons bay)