HMS Westminster and HMS Argyll face the axe amid a recruitment crisis and fleet modernisation efforts.

According to The Telegraph here, HMS Westminster is to be decommissioned alongside HMS Argyll this year.

It is claimed that HMS Westminster will be scrapped or sold to an ally despite the long-held plan to renovate the warship.

Rumours have swirled for months about whether the Type 23 frigate, currently being held in Devonport, Plymouth, would ever be back on the open sea.

HMS Westminster’s future uncertain amid refit concerns

The report cites a “recruitment crisis” within the Armed Forces being responsible as ship crews will now be sent to work across the new fleet of Type 26 and Type 31 Frigates as they come into service.

A defence source told The Telegraph:

“We will have to take manpower from one area of the Navy in order to put into a new area of the force.”

The Royal Navy said:

“The operational requirements of the Royal Navy are kept under constant review. The Ministry of Defence is committed to ensuring the Royal Navy has the capabilities it needs to meet current and future operational requirements.”

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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378 COMMENTS

    • 30 Typhoons scrapped and 2 frigates when our security situation is the worse it’s been for 40 years and no replacements for 3 years.

      The Torys are really strong in defence,

      Keep the ship along side in reserve for a few years atleast, same with the typhoons.

      Why sell these assets off to “Allie’s” for a few quid.

      • But manning and resources are required to maintain reserve fleets. Even warships sat alongside very soon are not seaworthy without proper maintenance. Then, they require very expensive and time-consuming refits to get them operational. Same with Typhoon. It’s not like getting a Hawk T1 flying again.

        • Isn’t much of the maintenance done by private contractors? Seems more likely they want to save money on outside costs to me, I would suggest so that they can devote every penny to the new shiny new ships that they can promote more proactively rather than from a pr aspect at least to politicians renovating is dead money. Same reason they like the visual impact of impressive new ships as the public for the most part simply don’t get whether they are sufficiently armed or not and even if they are the Daily Mail will find fault somewhere so public perception is negatively focused either way. These factors are far more important to money guys like Sunak than any problem of reducing our actual capacity to defend ourselves hey he’s a betting man. Also why money won’t go in to improve conditions and remuneration for crew to help promote recruitment generally.

          • Maintenance is done by contractors. But it is paid for from the MOD budget. So reserve fleets are simply taking money away from the frontline. And our new warships will be well Armed and exceptionally capable. High inflation has taken away a lot of money from all government departments’ budgets. Fortunately, it is now coming down, which will improve the MOD’s longer-term budget planning.

          • That’s what I thought. Apologies – I thought you suggested we had a reserve fleet but that it was undermanned.

            Perhaps we do need a small Reserve fleet, manned by RNR!

          • The RNR has a surprising number of full-time billets. Especially at shore bases. Pretty good gig, really. All the benefits of being in the RN without having to spend much time away from home. 👍

          • The army too has a number of Full Time Reserve Service posts (FTRS). I would have thought most would join the RNR to go to sea and get away from boredom at home!

      • The tories are really strong in defence?? Are you on a dry January??
        The RN is a national disgrace. Where is the advertising campaign designed to entice new generations into the service. And l mean young men, the backbone of the armed services not pathetic adverts saying don’t worry if your’e ‘different’ and all that cobblers. An island nation and we still cannot man a navy or indeed the RFA sufficiently to maintain the smallest fleets of either of all time.

        • Hi Bill,

          There was an article on Navy Lookout recently (2nd November) that looked at the RN’s latest in house selection system which has proved to be something of a step backwards to say the least. It is a depressing read but the most striking point is that volunteers are not the problem rather it is about getting them into the service. It seems that the services have rather lost their way when it comes to recruitment – very strange…

          Cheers CR

          • Prior too me joining the Andrew in the 70ts an advert for the Navy had the ominous catch phrase ” Jion the Navy and feel a different man everyday ” at the time it was either funny or ? …… If you get my drift Andy

          • I don’t think the services have very much to do with recruiting these days, unless they put out the ads and videos. Capita seems to do it mostly…..very badly!

          • Capita has mismanaged on numerous occasions – losing many millions of taxpayers money (‘losing’ being a rather elastic word – they seem to have kept their profits). it is a wonder how they continue to win multi-million pound Government contracts. If anyone does ever find out why, I suspect the answer will be less than edifying. ‘Nuff said!

        • I think adverts targeting a wider group of people to join the service are a good thing, half the nation are women after all and plenty have interest in the military. However, to attract talent you need to pay decent salaries and have good conditions, something that the armed forces aren’t always good at

          • Take a walk through married quarters and you’ll see why people are leaving. No schools,doctors or decent infrastructure less ships means. More time away. When I left nobody asked me why I was leaving,vto my knowledge that I’d still the case. Until you know why people are. Leaving, you can’t put it right can you?

          • Lived in 2 married Qs Rowner which had Naafi shop Doctors Pub post office , handed over too the council and trashed by the new tenants, Eastney married Qs quiet until half handed over too the Council police round all the time from then on couldn’t put your washing out it would vanish , hate too think what the state of those properties are like now and for any ratings living in them

          • When I PVR’d from the army the application form asked me to state my reason(s) for leaving.

        • Our armed forces, or what’s left of them is pretty much like the country … going dowhill fast. Not enough capial ships, front line planes and fighting soldiers. Whose fault is it if we haven’t got sufficient personnel to operate the weapon systems, to keep them maintained and fit for purpose. Only a handful of RAF/RN fighter pilots are trained each year. Every time there is a defence review cuts are made. Its a complete joke like most things our Politicians get to meddle with.

          • It’s okay to have people standing up in parliament saying we need more this and more of that, but if we don’t produce quickly enough, you’ll still be in decline.

            cli

          • J c, you forgot about the LinkedIn job advert for a Rear Admiral in charge of Special Operations delivery and fast attack submarines! No one suitable apparently from within.

          • I think. And always have done,, is thiat he u.k should have or should have, is an agreement with the Americans, a first option to. Loan With the option to buy, any major pieces of equipment that they are. Retiring.1). That object is. Already built,2; it will be technology up to date,3; it will be cheaper to get an faster into service than we can name here in the u k.

          • We did buy 1 hydroplane gas turbine boat of the Americans renamed it Hms Speedy in the 70ts found it unsuitable for our needs sat in 2bason Pompey dockyard for years

        • There are approximately 60 million snowflakes living in the UK. It’s damning just how few are willing to serve their country. It’s easier to just get paid loads of benefits or work for Lidl or Aldi or in a nice warm call centre somewhere.
          I’m ashamed with the current state of our armed forces and the people that call themselves my countrymen/ women/ people.

          • Every generation bemoans the next one. Watch the 1970s series Warship where there are complaints about the ‘youth of today, and the unions. There are plenty of Gen Z and millennial people dying in their droves fighting for their country and democracy in Ukraine. There are also plenty of that demographic serving in the UK military. Are you serving yourself? Also, are you going to have a pop at Andy for leaving the navy and not ‘doing his duty’!

          • 😂😅🤣😂 I’ve served my country for 30 years so far….and counting.
            Cheers Andy for your service. Yes 22 years is a very respectful stint. 👍

          • Wasn’t Warship a fictional BBC production revolving around a Leander class Frigate named Hms Hero ?

          • Not all the young are useless lazy weaklings many are fit intelligent motivated young people it’s just all you hear from is the turds on the internet if push comes to shove the youth will stand up from all the council estates over the country and do there part

          • In 1977 as I was leaving school, two programmes warship and the documentary about the old ark royal were. Shown during prime time t.v th services are not sold anymore if you don’t plant the seed of ambition.nothing will grow maybe the careers offices would be more efficient if serving and ex servicemen and women visited schools might peak more interest

          • I HAVE A Petition going in. Parliament. Via my MP, for all ethnics convicted of criminal offences to have their and their families residential status checked it could be that a willingness to work for the nation should be part of the immigration policies.

          • We don’t push the honour and kudos of serving the nation enough. Made in the royal navy? Surely we can do better than. That.

          • No. The problem is that the nation has a very high employment rate. There are more job vacancies than people to fill them. This means the Armed Force’s have to compete in a very competitive jobs market. Stop putting this country down because of a very narrow-minded very of the world. The young of today are better educated, fitter, and generally more sensible and make outstanding sailor’s soldiers and airmen. Every generation puts down the younger generation. When I joined the RN in 99, people said back then ‘its not the same as back in my day’. Utter rubbish.

  2. This is what happens when successive governments postpone replacements. I can recall Warships magazine T26 conceptual art back in 2001….

    On and on it went, sandbox wars reared their heads and T26 remained nothing but a number that slowly gathered dust.

    Labour started the mess and the Tories just carried on, ordering sod all, year in year out….

    T23 is on its arse, what a bloody mess.

    Bloody politicians😡😡😡

      • Personally I wish the military would institute a coup….anything but the Conservatives, Labour of the Lib Dems would be better than what we have now… A direct military dictatorship might actually clean this country up…No possibility it will happen though.

          • The guy who posts under ‘George’ on its own. He used to post as George Parker. He has called for a military coup if Labour wins the next election three times in the last 8 weeks.

            In fairness to him from prior service details he has posted with dates he is at least late 70s, possible older. I am happy to write his postings off due to age although I think they have to be challenged.

          • Are you sure we have a democracy? Really sure? No matter who we vote in we get the same set of policies.

          • Ah, Can of Worms, yes. But since democracy is about us, then let us at least try to uphold the principal. The alternatives are what we’re intent on preventing, surely? Once again, I am tempted to reference Churchill with regard to the options. You’ll know what I mean; the one of two memorable pronouncements, alongside the Beaches speech.
            KRs

          • Mind you MAGA seems to think it’s one and the same thing but so many coups start in the name of saving Democracy. Some indeed are but sadly that just muddies the water for the great majority that are anything but to claim it.

          • Exactly what made me twitch when coup was mentioned. Too close for comfort. We’ve known blondie for decades here; there’s only ever been Trump First not America First.
            I’ve mentioned Timoleon of Corinth before as the only example, as far as I’m aware, of a powerful and very competent politician granted nigh-dictator status by a desperate Syracruse, who kept his word & handed back democratic process on completion of his remit. Realised to be so remarkable, indeed astoundinly unexpected, it was justly acclaimed nigh on two & half millennia back & is still recalled to this day for that reason.
            Exampled in Defence of Democratic Principle, not a defence of our democratic representatives principles; and certainly not of their competence.

        • How much is the net cost of these ‘newcomers’? How much of the financial woes of the UK since 2005 are down to migrants compared to the financial crash of 2008, COVID, Brexit, a land war in Europe etc?

          Also, name one military junta that was good at ruling a nation?

          • I would generally agree, but to be honest I would claim that the Egyptian one is rather better than those it replaced, though maybe I’m biased because it sure is better for us in the West. Not sure either that things change much in Pakistan between military juntas and those who were actually voted in who are generally totally corrupt and power crazed. In many places ‘democracy’ is anything but of course which complicates matters.

        • Yeah and who do you think their political front man would be with the class and public ‘old’ school bias it would inevitably be Rees Mogg and given that freedom the ‘rest of us’ would have no greater rights than the slave labour the Nazis relied on to make Germany great again. They barely give a damn even when the Eton mob need voted to stay in office, even elite hangers on like Truss are screaming about wanting a Trump win when sane think tanks are telling us what a disaster for Britain, indeed the World that will be. Indeed how does that balance with her former overt pro Ukranian anti Russian stance. It shows the lack of remote joined up thinking on the part of so many of our politicians but the military top brass don’t as a whole strike me as being better bets especially as historically we have always gone through a whole lot of privileged trash before the good ones fight their way to the top to save us at relatively the last minute. Hey even a good one in Wellington was one of the worst PMs we ever had and indeed treated the people pretty much like Moggy would.

          • you don’t think a coup has already taken place over the last 25 years? We had Blair, Brown, Cameron, need I go on…these are all carbon copies of the same people and same policies (a very British coup). They were voted on platforms they never intended to implement and instead implemented their own policies. Mass immigration has been weaponised to destroy the bonds of the English nation and to limit the wage growth of the working class and lower middle class. We have a managerial class who are incompetent and corrupt (e.g., Royal Mail fiasco is just the latest in a long list of failures). Moreover, they expanded quangos to remove policy making from parliament and hand it over to unelected bureaucrats. Many in England are tired of the same old non-sense. Watch what will happen at the next election…poor voter turnout and apathy….anger will be go unquenched only it boils over…it’s currently simmering underneath and any spark will light the flame.

        • We could have the manpower over ten thousand Nepalese wen for400 places in the British army the unsuccessful ones should have been given the option of the navy,HMS GURKHA ANYONE?

          • Tribal class Frigate Gurkha’s are world renowned for their courage and fighting skills could be handy as boarding party especially out in the Red Sea Andy

      • Starmer referred in his speech yesterday to ‘revolving doors’ and cronyism. Have to ask is he on to the problem..

          • My take is that he is keeping his cards close to his chest. He will wait until Sunak and Hunt have played all their budget / tax / give away cards before making any commitments with a financial impact. Otherwise the current govt will set traps in the budget / autumn statement to position him in a stance he can’t defend. The Tory strategy will be to characterise Labour as the party of tax, borrow and spend. I can see the Daily Express / Mail / Telegraph …headlines already…..’the politics of envy….’
            The true conservatives have lost control of the party to red neck free marketeers and far right wing. Nature abhors a vacuum, in this case the centre ground; which Starmer has filled.

          • Morning, job already done. Thanks to 13 years of government cronyism, mismanagement, Covid, Brexit, Putin and Woke we are already broke. I see the latest Tory idea is to cut inheritance tax. I would have thought spending the money on flood defences or an extra frigate or some affordable houses was a better idea but hey…let’s push property prices even higher.

      • I genuinely believe that defence is too important to be left to politicians, stupid though that may sound. Defence is something that needs a far reaching and long term vision not bloody ‘We’re in for four years, what can we bugger up while we’re here?’
        The very, very least we should change is that Defence like transport and power generation and other national infrastructure needs should be by total cross party group, that way they are all bloody responsible.

          • True, but I guess the point I really am trying to make is that modern defence strategy and the procurement process that is so embedded in that is a long term process. Take building a new range of armoured vehicles (or not) An understandably lengthy process. The expected end of operational life of the old kit is known, thus the need to replace is a known fact, we then decide functionality requirements and specifications, place tenders with potential suppliers, selection is made and then (assuming previous budgets have not now been cut) we place orders and after production and testing we buy fewer than we probably need.
            In all likelihood by the time we get that far defence reviews by the same part that put things in place or we have had a change of government which does the same thing. They talk about supporting British industry but do not always do so.
            Generally France, USA and other allies are very strong on keeping defence procurement within it’s borders, not 100% but better that we do I suggest.

          • We didn’t win two world wars….The remains of the British Empire won the wars…. Without the Indian/Australian/Canadian/New Zealand/South Africa, and all the other countries contributions, the outcome of the two world wars would have been quite different.

          • 😂🤣😅🤣😂 yes living in France will give you a unique twist to historical facts. I met some French businessmen that genuinely believed it was the French resistance that liberated France. Muppets.

          • I will say this only once I take it that the French businessmen were avid watchers of Allo Allo too come to that belief Mr bell

          • You betcha. Canada kept supplies/resources flowing all through the war across the North Atlantic.

          • I don’t recognise the UK as being that country anymore. We have frankly shit politicians making shit decisions and believing in nothing but the financial markets and commercial consumerism.
            Really sad state of affairs. We deserve to be militarily defeated and conquered.

          • This country is run by the likes of Blackrock who instigate the premise of DEI and ESG scores the higher you and your company score the easier it is too borrow and trade bit of a controversy theory but all roads lead to WEF .Our political elite seem too be dancing to the tune of the pipid piper which is globalisation not Nationalism

          • hhm i think you may find the Soviet Union had a slightly different perspective on that, however -point taken.

        • As long as it’s not run like the Post Office eh. Not sure we have yet another half billion to throw away on lack of supervision and very possibly outright fraud.

        • I’d go further and make it clear via a constitution that politicians responsible for defence decisions are liable for those decisions for their lifetime. Ergo you make a cut and the cut leads to defeat or casualties you are prosecuted and sent to prison for life. That would be a very sobbering way to keep the political class in the real world.

        • That’s a interesting idea I quite like it but maybe not cross party but by a panel of high ranking officers who get the defence budget and spend accordingly

      • The Mod Is not fit for purpose. The curtains should be drawn. The doors locked. And have all the stuff currently being used by retired dusty admirals should be chucked into a skip. Then start again with people with knowledge, commonsense and ambition.or better still let us do it.

        • I’d volunteer. Give me a few weeks and the ability to make decisions and the UK armed forces would be absolutely rocking.
          Here’s an idea. Instead of giving the well paid junior doctors / trainees a 35% pay rise why don’t we give “pay restoration” to the armed forces instead. Recruitment and retention problem mostly resolved.

        • And too start with drop these DEI ,ESG pronoun speaking idiots that are making the rest of the world laugh at us as well Andy

      • Bit of both, they need to generate crews for new ships but cant spare the staff, hence retiring old ships that will only serve a handful more years.

      • It absolutely is Matt, crewing aside, T23 is totally worn out and should have been replaced many years ago, both Labour and the Tories just kicked that can down the road and quite frankly didn’t give a sh#t, it’s really that’s simple…..

        They both took a very conscious decision to allow the very working core of the RN to be run into the ground.

        Don’t believe anything that comes out of Labour or the Tories on defence, they really don’t care a jot about defence of the realm and the evidence of this is absolutely plane to see..

        • It’s worn out by our standards but no doubt we will sell them to Pakistan and they will be in the water for two more decades.

          We could easily keep these ships in reserve until T26 and T31 arrive.

          • Jim wrote:
            “”It’s worn out by our standards but no doubt we will sell them to Pakistan and they will be in the water for two more decades.””

            No a chance in hell, the Biggest recipient of British foreign aid has been using that aid money to purchase brand new ships from China Holland and Turkey
            So they have:
            4 X Type 054A/P frigates specially modified by the Chinese for Pakistani service  (first ship laid down in 2022 last one last year)
            4X Type 053H3 frigates (first laid down in 2009, last in 2013)
            2X Yarmook-class corvette based on the Damen Group with another 2 on order.  Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) 1900.
            1X Babur-class corvette built by turkey based on their  MILGEM project with another 3 currently getting built. 

          • I seem to recall reading that before the old Ark Royal was retired in 1978, they had to resort to filling some of the bow compartments with concrete (I’m assuming mid 1970’s) to retain structural strength in high sea states, as the corrosion and stress cracking had reached such an advanced state…

            I’ve often wandered if that was a fact.

          • Hi John Clark, bow concrete’s probably the result of the Ark slicing a Russian destroyer (or was it cruiser)in two. ⚖ Off Gib, in the Med in the 70’s. We were in the area at the time on the RustyB (Bulwark) lol..
            👌👍

          • And I believe one of the two non Chinese designs will have CAMM-ER. Give it 1-2 years and we’ll see Chinese copies…

          • I hear that ratings are being warned not to star jumps while doing PT amidships, in case T23’s break in half under the strain.

            If you look closely you can see the rolls and rolls of black nasty running round the hull to keep them together Jim.

          • Yep did it with my old ship Hms London DLG handed over in 82 ended her time as Aircraft control for Karachi airport

          • That Mk 1 SeaSlug was my work station many a time we’d play on that great big climbing frame on the AX

        • Add to that law and order as well….the whole HMS Great Britain seems to be sinking beneath the seas….thanks to the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems.

          • The recent dire by-election results show that if you vote Reform, you will let the Labour or Lib Dem candidate in

          • That might be the case, but with Labour and the Tories, you get slightly different socialist governments, who both believe in large overbearing government, very high taxation and writing cheques the country can’t afford on vast social spending programmes…

            We are literally borrowing money to give it away and drowning in deeper and deeper national debt.

            I’m voting Reform, because I believe we need a complete reset to the collective political insanity that occupies Westminster.

          • Good. Vote reform then. Split the Tory vote up nicely. Let’s have the Tories out. Labour in and see where we are in 5 years time.

          • trouble is we have seen both of them make a hash of it time after time after time.
            time for a change

          • What are the pros and cons of voting reform? What are their costed defence proposals?

          • They are just starting to roll out a full policy agenda, but basically it’s core ‘old’ Conservative values of small government, low tax, fiscal responsibility and a raft of common sense policies, a pro business agenda pushing forward on trade deals aggressively and creating growth.

            Let’s face it, both the main parties are just two sides of the same coin.

            Sky high spending beyond all sense, high taxation, weak leadership and absolutely terrified of breaking out of a Woke straight jacket.

        • Spot on no interest in Defence even with war in Europe .Should be 3%GDP on Defence ,and stop blaming the Economy although it helps for it to be healthy , but would this make any difference ?

          • Slash foreign aid Google where it goes and how much you’ll be enraged. Disgraceful and don’t get me going about the BBC.

        • The reason the T23s were not replaced years back was more to do with the RN than the politicians.

          All escort planning and building ground to a halt after 2010 because the budget had to switch to paying for the carriers. The navy was on a fixed equipment budget and ÂŁ7bn splashed on the carriers was the equivalent of 9 or 10 years of new ship construction for the rest of the fleet.

          It was said by many at the time that, even at 2.5% of GDP, as the defence budget was with Blair/Brown, the carriers were simply not affordable and would lead to hollowing out the rest of the fleet.

          But the RN had campaigned and lobbied everyone stridently for carriers, so the die was cast.

          Predictable result was that, other than the last 3 T45s already in production not one single new escort has been commissioned since the Conservatives gained power in 2010: the money all went on the carriers.

          Given the lifespan of an escort, we need to be building – allowing for a couple of years gap between classes – one a year just to keep the escort fleet at its previous size of 19 ships.

          The Tory gap will be 13 or 14 years without a single new escort until 2026 or 2027. That is why the T23s have had to soldier on miles after their planned OSD.

          The RN knew that this would be the inevitable knock-on effect of cramming the carriers into the budget, what did they expect to happen? They seem to have expected HMG to conjure up a shipload of new money from somewhere – the other services’ budgets if necessary – in order to have the prestige of a carrier capability.

          Simple answer is we could afford carriers on 4% of GDP, maybe on 3% at a big stretch, but no chance on a pretendy 2%.

          We have just ended up with carriers with not enough escorts and SSNs to protect them and not enough aircraft on board to make them much of a threat to anyone other than a second or third-rate adversary.

          I an sorry it is so but the services would need a considerably larger budget to even consider building a carrier today. And that decision would need to be balanced against the real and urgent re-equipment needs of the RAF and Army, the poor relations over the last 14 years.

          • Very good points Cripes, compounded with paying for the sandbox war years added to the mix, frigates seemed an even lower priority then and one that carried on being shoved further and further down the road.

    • Completely agree! The idea that when the T23 program wrapped up we could take a leisurely pause and drag our heels in getting the new class started was utter folly!

      The only way to avoid the mess we’re now in with the surface fleet is to basically continually design and build.

      • But it will take us 15 years to get the numbers back up. We need to keep what we have for longer like the USN does.

        France is planning on sailing its SSBN’s for nearly 50 years as is the USN but apparently ours are knackered at 30.

        The MOD is still thinking peace time, it needs to change.

        • New french SSBN will come in 2035 so dont know where youre getting 50 years for them. Also you forget the fact the US has more vessels, so do not have to use the same vessel as often as us.

          • The US are not deploying most of their fleet constantly to keep up with requirements. There is no magical difference in construction quality, the fact is RN warships are overworked.

          • And the wrong ships are doing the wrong jobs batch river down in the Falklands? Echo certainly could

          • The French are planning to launch one every 5 years so that last boat hitting the water in 2050. The last in the current class will be 42 years from launching and 50 years from the keel being laid at that point.

        • SSBN’s are not designed for 50 years of service. The French boats are not by some kind of magic built to last 20 odd years longer compared to our Vangard boats.

    • Don’t you remember how we don’t need Cold War relics any more and we won’t be going to war again and we punch above our weight blah blah blah.

    • Bloody mess for sure ,unless the government put more money in its never going to change and for our politicians and PM to get there head’s out of the sand. 🙄

    • Here we go again. Cuts from the Thatcher and Major Govts reaped the peace dividend and Labour then stuck that dividend into Degrees for sunflower gazers and making sure every teaching ASSISTANT had a lap top and a degree… does everyone need a degree in medicine? Seriously.

      The sand box wars were supported by the Opposition…

      Blair and Brown created a littorals fleet as the argument suggested interventions in places like Sierra Leone was the way to go. Russia got observer status at NATO…

      So this Party did this and that needs context.

      30 years on from that peace dividend and the world has turned upside down on its arrse; however, we are too slow to react and can’t tear down our excessive culture of risk costs nor bring about reality that if you smoke, you die – don’t run to the NHS, if you identify as a toadstool, then breathe you’re own spores and… die, don’t run to the NHS; pensioners do not ALL need a triple lock; the rich should pay more tax on unearned income; we waste too much money on diversity and inclusion within the public sector; multi-national corporations should pay tax on the profits they earn in the UK and not plead IPR payments to American parents.

      Rant over.

    • The freedom.class of the LCS programme are now getting the ‘fixes, they are having. Successful deployments employments and operating well.we should loan with h open t buy them currently retired ones. Cross deck the30mm cannon sea ceptor and torpedo from retiring T23’s and then cancel theT32. Squire one every ten months the fleet could expand fairly quickly with vessels THAT ARE ALREADY BUILT.crews under 100? even we could manage that.

      • Could you supply a link to substantiate your post.

        Given USCG have rejected the little chappy ships, why do think the RN should acquire them?

        • The type 45 went through a always breaking down and a waste of time period before fixes were identified and put to use over half of the freedom class ships have had the gearing issue fixed and are successfully carrying out long deployments with the fleet the Au.k could bag a few of them for cheap and they’re already built. T32 could be cancelled to stop the inevitable waste of money in the design and tendering stages. You cannot get a half decent frigate for und A hundred million pounds so, a five ship ord will not com at less than 500 million pounds five of those freedom class ships wouldn’t cost anywhere near that. And the Americans would be quite happy to see them off their hands. If anyone can get the best of the type it’s the RN.

          • They cost too much to run. That’s why the USCG don’t want them.

            For us, it’s another class of ship built to American requirements including manning.

            Better to have a second batch of T31, IF they work successfully.

  4. The lack of investment over many years is a completely valid complaint, but it is also true that the Navy is having a very hard time recruiting enough people to man these platforms. If nothing is done about that then it makes no difference how many more hulls are ordered.

    • Sounds like there is no shortage of applicants. It’s the process of accepting them that’s screwed! Sourced out to some private firm naturally!

      And the problem is it takes many, many years to train and develop people into specialists which is all undermined when the inflow of new recruits is slow but the outflow of experienced people at the end of their careers (or mid career but have had enough) is high.

      • Privatisation has been the bane of the UK…we have privatised profit and nationalised debt….The only people that gain are the rich and feckless.

      • Agree, I have had friends have to wait years to get in to RN for this reason. Plenty of people willing to join and ship crews have nearly halted since the 90’s.

        It’s all the same nonsense for the MOD just looking to save a few quid and kick the can down the road with no thought to ever actually fighting a war.

      • Back in the good old days when we had numbers in all 3 services ,recruitment was done in house.
        The deep thinking ones decided that civilians could do a better job.
        How did that turn out !!
        Why change a system that worked for years ?
        Another brown envelope job !
        Pissups and breweries.

    • You can blame the rise in social media platforms for youngsters not feeling the need too step forward and serve their country CCF SCC Army cadets and Air cadets is where insterest seems to stop and go no further . Do I get a Like for this post ? (Sarcasm)

      • Re cadets: They are not there any more most of the time.

        A friend left the RAF after 18yrs about five back. He had good memories of the Air Cadets who had set him up for the RAF. He looked for the chance to put something back and found the current network is barely 1/4 of what it was in his day.

        I mentioned this to a work colleague who is involved in the Sea Cadets and apparently they are the same.

        I would be surprised if the Army cadets were the exception but do not know anyone involved to ask.

        • My late father and his work buddy who was ex Navy looked around at the youth in our town and there was no SCC that was in 67 and 545 was born in 68 it was officially named Ts Sir Alec Rose its still going but not many now take the plunge and Join up not even as reservists getting likes on social media seems too be more important than defence of the Realm Chris

          • Millom has a strong ish CCF, however, despite many Millomites serving or having served in the RN and Royal and a disproportionate amount of retired ‘Them’ (SBS), and a strong Inshore Rescue Service with a HM Coastguard from Millom, there are no Sea Cadets.

            Parents work at Sellafield and are minted, kids get every xbox etc on earth.

            Only rugby seems to hold any of the youth.

          • Both my boys had CCF at their school Slindon when most of the pupils had parents in the forces that was in the 90ts and they had too do a “Public Service” course learn about police,Fire,Border,Coast guard, Paramedic likewise most would join Army ,RM not the Navy but they had 2 weeks on-board Hms Bristol with the CCF learning too sail .

        • I was a Cadet Force Adult Volunteer for 5 years. The ACF has 38,000 cadets, and the CCF (Army) Sect over 30,000. I can’t say if the strength has reduced much in the last 20 or 30 years, but I expect so.

    • Born in Blythe made in the royal navy? Is that the best way to get to people and entice them to get a career? Over 20.000 Nepalese appled for the 400 places in the British army and the offer to join the navy should have been offered to those unsuccessful ones.H.M.S Gurkha anyone?

  5. How about going back to having recruitment offices in city centres like they used to… I remember walking past the Army Navy RAF office in Liverpool and thinking what’s that all about, I wandered in and before I knew it was signing up for the Cheshire’s.. I’d never thought about a military career before but loved what they sold me in that office.

    • We couldnt have that old boy – a target for all sorts of subversive elements of the UK Society.
      A bit like have careers fairs for schools- They must never include any branch of the military in those dontcha know.
      I mean how could they possibly justify allowing such a xenophobic ,non-diverse group in schools….no matter what sort of career it could provide…where would it all end…

    • What and make great jobs for older ratings across the UK instead of retiering then when they don’t want to spend half the year at sea.

      Don’t be daft we could not possibly do that.

      Next you want to send them round schools recruiting kids for a well paid long term career.

      Better just to bring in capita and give then a few billion 😀

    • My Schools careers teacher said too me ” as your Asthmatic and allergic to penicillin your never get in the Armed forces ” I bunked of School and went too Arundel St, Portsmouth Naval careers office 6 weeks later I signed the dotted line at Raleigh June 76

  6. In 2010 we had 17 frigates and the oldest was approximately 20 years from being commissioned.

    In 2024 we have 11 frigates and the oldest is approximately 33 years from being commissioned.

    Not a single new frigate brought into service for 22 years now! It’s an absolute travesty!!

    • I seem to remember in 2010 George Osbourne being very pleased with himself after he moved successor funding from Treasury budget to the MOD.

      This is the result.

      Some how we still managed to add ÂŁ1 Trillion in debt over the same period.

      Great job George.

      Remember when the treasury use to pay for wars as well. Some how now Ukraine funding. Ones direct from the MOD budget but the Tory’s are great in defence.

    • All three services are suffering the same way, with the very limited and deliberately glacial acquisition of new equipment nowhere near enough to replace the in-service kit.

      The result is that an ever-larger part of British kit is old and near-obsolete. The blame lies very plainly with the Conservative Government, which has turned axing service personnel and equipment into a political art form in their quest to cut public spending to the bone.

      That said, the Royal Navy is itself largely to blame for the state of the escort fleet. It was the RN who campaigned and lobbied incessantly for new aircraft carriers, which many observers said were simply no longer affordable on 2.5% of GDP.

      They got their ÂŁ7bn carriers – but the price was that, instead of commissioning one new escort a year, the Conservative government has not commissioned a single new escort over its 14 years in office, which must a record low of irresponsible government. So no surprise that the T23 frigate fleet is pretty much clapped out now and escort numbers are on the slide.

      There is a strange expectation by the naval top brass that, having skewed the forces’ budgets to get aircraft carriers, everyone will rally round to fund the missing escorts. Alas, money for defence is in very short supply and the navy may have to adjust its sights to having fewer than 19 escorts in the future. Certainly the idea that 6 T32 will be conjured up is likely to disappoint, there are higher defence priorities.

      • That “strange expectation” was voiced by Zambellas in an interview in 2005. Now we have got the carriers, politicians will have to deliver the escorts we need to protect them. West argued for ships large enough to match USN sortie rates.
        So yes, the entire top brass of the RN pushed for the biggest possible carriers and showed utter naivety about the likely consequences.

  7. Please correct this post if inaccurate, but isn’t HMS Argyll still undergoing a post-LIFEX refit? Deciding, on balance, not to commit to the refurbishment of an older frigate is one level of a management decision making process, but abandoning a refit in mid-stream, so to speak, may be an exhibition of a different level of managerial competency. 🤔😳😉🤔☹️

    • You are correct, ARGYLL is due out of refit sometime this year having spent the last year in dock. Suddenly the MOD have decided(still awaiting official confirmation mind) to effectively abandon said refit on the grounds that as of now, we dont have enough sailors to man her! You just couldn’t make this shit up if you tried!😖

      • I think its got more to do with the fact Argyll is just simply worn out and needs scrapping, the material state of the T23 is now dropping off a cliff quite frankly.

        You are better off transferring the refit money into up arming the T31’s and getting both the T26/31 delivered asap.

        • Not sure how much that would now save, as Argyll has all but completed the majority of her refit! Clearly unsure as to how much work has actually been done, but she has been in dock for approx a year and is/was due out sometime this year.
          Why commit to a years worth of work to just suddenly abandon it, unless they have just discovered something seriously wrong with the state of her?

          Either way its not good news for ship numbers wise. The MOD isnt looking overly competent at the moment, certainly doesnt inspire any confidence in their managerial capabilities.

          Not sure how much faster we can move the build of both Glasgow/Venturer along, although that does seem the obvious solution.

          • Oh I see, I thought Argyll had been stripped and commenced her structural refit?

            I assumed they found she was as rotten as an November Apple left on the tree and ready for the razor blade factory??

            I didn’t know she was in an advanced stage of completion…

          • John Clark-
            “ I assumed they found she was as rotten as a November Apple left on the tree and ready for the razor blade factory??”

            Ding ding ding. I’m surprised they don’t crumple under their own weight once they are dry docked. Should have retired before my Dad did.

        • The only issue is the first T31 won’t arrive until 2027 and fleet numbers won’t grow if you junk T23 early until the late 2030’s

          By this point what ever Chinas going to do over Taiwan will already have happened.

          We need more ships in 2027 not 2037.

          T23 even in it’s dismissed state is an asset worth retaining atleast in reserve.

          Two of them detected half the Chinese SSN fleet in 2021.

          It’s still capable and it’s still floating.

          It will be sold to an Allie and I have no doubt will still be in the water 20 years from now.

          This is an MOD scam to save a few quid on LIFEX and running costs.

          • I wouldn’t worry too much about China Jim, if that particular bun fight kicks off, the UK will be on the benches with the wheezy boys anyway.

            By the time we managed to get an Astute there (our only possible real contribution to the fight), it would all be over, a clash over Taiwan will be a short, extremely bloody and brutal fight, ending with most of the Chinese Navy sat on the sea bed and the majority of its first tier J20/J15 fleet air force smashed to pieces.

            All we could really contribute would be a strongly worded letter to the Chinese ambassador I’m afraid….

            Lets face it, we are really struggling to find a second ship for anti piracy operations off the Yemen, so a clash of the Titans wouldn’t involve us, it would be Uncle dishing out the hurt.

          • Apart from an A class sub we do have the heavily armed and frightening powerful offshore patrol vessel somewhere near the south China Sea promoting the flag and being used as the bench for the weezy boys when it comes too a confrontation with the CCP Navy.

          • A politician can’t remember who referred to theOPV as a powerful warship?!! The Thais have made their B2 river tasty with a main gun extra cannon and now harpoon oh dear. It’s bad when other nations are showing us how things should be rone

          • The problem is Graham they are having to spend a fortune structurally refurbishing hulls that were supposed to have a 20 year life.

            The programme has run slowly too, as the sheer amount of structural work became apparent on these aging hulls, you have to wonder what the point of spending ÂŁ200 odd million on refurbishing a Frigate, only to run it on for five years before scrapping it…..

            It’s just bloody crazy. We are better off folding the money into T31 weapons upgrades and perhaps accelerating delivery of them and the T26 if possible.

            Theses probably enough saved cash to build a couple more T31’s in that T23 refit pot.

            We might just have to ask Uncle Sam to get the US Navy to help us out in the interim by deploying a few Warships to Portsmouth on rotation for the next five years perhaps.

            Embarrassing perhaps, but someone should just bloody own the problem and start making decisions to turn it around…..

          • Thanks John. 20 years to me seems a somewhat short period for the life of a naval vessel. Are they being made with durability as a key design feature? Surely ‘heavy duty’ commercial ships with greater number of days at sea have a longer life?

            [The army makes many of its AFVs last 50 or 60 years! Only joking – not a serious comment].

            I agree that it is pointless to keep a warship in service for only a few years after a major refit. Surely someone does a Business Case in the MoD before embarking on such a refit late in the life of a ship?

            We need to think outside the box – your US idea should be examined…or lease some US frigates as an interim measure until Brit ones are fielded in batch quantity.

    • Sorry but you don’t think like the UK treasury. After LIFEX extension is paid for and cost over ÂŁ100 million we can now sell her to Pakistan or Brazil for ÂŁ25 quid.

      That’s the real money saving right there 😀

      You crazy American’s working your ships for 40 + years don’t know how to run a real budget, better to junk them early and save on the running costs well telling everyone how your supporting “Allie’s” 😀

      • The Americans have more ships, of course they can run for longer, they dont have to do twice the work to make up for hull numbers

        • 😂

          You should watch the old British comedy “Yes Minister” ( it’s on YouTube) it will explain everything about British government finance policy 😀

        • It will be interesting to watch the size of the American fleet shrinks, seeing as it appears to have the UK financial withering disease and the treasury tying up the purse strings

  8. On reflection I’m not sure about this. It is red meat to Labour who are in campaign mode and have looked up defence and security a fair bit. Would expect Tory politicians to see that coming

  9. Well it’ll save on aircraft I suppose. When we’re out of escorts we can sell the carriers to China for a couple of billion each. Keep illegal immigration going for a few months. 😡

  10. I have several books on the organisation of the royal navy from 45 onwards. The reoccurring theme in it was jumps in pay to sort slumped recruitment from time to time . Time for another jump and stop this woke “any one but white men ” crap recruitment. Every part of Britain is in the Sh1t . Out rulers are imbeciles.. nothing more you can say , I no one can deny it ..you just listen to the faeces that flows from their low iq arrogant mouths makes me boil.

    • After OP Corporate Falklands half the Lads went F this for a game of Sailors and put their 18months notice in , But because of our victory the youth all wanted too join up there was an uptake in recruits for the Navy and Army

  11. Start normal, the Admirals doing a top job running the Navy. Why does take so long to build a few frigates 5 years? , and was,n/t HMS Argil recently up graded, top sense in wasted million there.

          • i was meaning if its 10 years to build on, the last one of the class is near out of date by the time is entering service

          • Designs are modified as time goes on during build. This means that the final batch is very different from the first. Lessons learnt during the build are applied and new systems installed. Plus, everyone else is doing the same. You can’t design a new class every 5 years. It’s simply too expensive. Modern warships like T26 and T31 are designed for future growth and to add new capabilities

          • Agreed, but ten years to build and test the first in class. The Type23 will need a walking frame by then.

          • That’s a financial choice. We have the ability to build quicker if available budgets allow.

  12. Like absolutely every single government funded service, not fit for purpose. There is no exception to the mess this country is in.

    • Try living abroad then, pal. You’ll see our mess isn’t quite as bad as everyone else’s. I spend a lot of working time in Germany. The myths about Germany society being super efficient is off the chart. Germany is very backwards compared to the UK in many aspects.

      • Really, what aspects of German life are so backwards. I’ve spent many years over there, seemed a much nicer place then here at the minute.

        • I’m not writing you a list. But I know life in this country is not half as bad as some people like to make out. Usually, people who have spent very little time outside of our country apart from a week on a Spanish beach once a year.

  13. Let’s just remember. This hasn’t been confirmed by the MOD. its just a news paper article. But it’s no secret the RN is seriously struggling for manning. On a positive note. We will be back up to 19 escorts. And the new warships do require smaller ships companies compared to T23. A couple of GP T23’s aren’t going to turn the tide of a major conflict. But some short term pain might make delivering T26 & T31 a little easier on the manning front. The RN also has to look at longer term deployments. And where the priorities are to generate warship availability.

    • Sorry, even an outsider has learned the term “jam tomorrow (or next week, month, year, or decade).” At some point, will the great unrepresented masses demand proof of intent? 🤔😳

      • Sorry RB, simply venting because the storm clouds are gathering and Uncle Sam will need all of its capable allies.

        • Know worries, mate. What we all have to remember is that it’s not only the RN with manning problems. Even the US Navy is struggling.

          • Dutch navy has had to take ships out of service because of crew shortages, the Irish navy opvs are alongside for the same reason. The USN is struggling both with manpower and maintenance.
            Doesn’t help with the UK problem but does show that recruitment and retention difficulties are quite widespread.
            Whether that is the prime reason for a further reduction in RN escort numbers or the material condition of ships now way past their design life isn’t entirely clear.
            If crew shortages are the biggest issue, then it might make sense to consider mothballing both LPDs rather than one. But only if freeing up crew enables us to sustain escort numbers until the T31s and T26s start entering service.

          • I think the RN has just enough to cover current tasking. But leaves very little wriggle room. I’d very much like to see the long term plan to help recruitment and retention.

      • There is jam tomorrow. Just a smaller pot and you have to throw out the 12 pots in the cupboard. But still a wee hotel size pot of jam tomorrow

  14. Meanwhile Navy Lookout is posting that the MOD is looking for retired officers for Rear Admiral Director of Submarines, can’t fill internally?

    • Mark wrote:
      “”Meanwhile Navy Lookout is posting that the MOD is looking for retired officers for Rear Admiral Director of Submarines, can’t fill internally?””

      That’s due to positive discrimination , resulting in straight white men not allowed to apply. 

        • There’s probably be a hell of a lot more if they (as a social group) weren’t looked down on for even considering applying. The RN needs new blood, it wouldn’t surprise me if 2OE gets extended to keep senior rats in place to give them time to train new lads & lasses up to fill their roles. You know when push is coming to shove if they start calling the old sweats up to fill shore aide & some at sea roles the Mob just doesn’t have the bods for.

        • Mark wrote:
          “”How many non white straight men are there that could apply?””

          The reason I wrote that is that is the direction this country is going, where people are selected on the colour of their skin rather than on merit. We saw it with the RAF, we saw it with the Police .Remember this headline from 2019:
          Cheshire Police: Man rejected for job for being white and straight tribunal finds.
          And he wasn’t the only one.

          Not a fortnight ago we saw this as a headline:
          Aviva insurance says all new white male recruits must be personally signed off by CEO
          Dont even get me started on the silver screen , sorry I meant the black one. When was the last time you saw a white bloke on an advert, Dr Who was replaced by a woman , who was in turn replaced by a gay David Tenent who thought that the Asian Isaac Newton was hot. Davros known as the first dalek can now walk as the writer presumed that people in wheelchairs shouldn’t be seen as evil. Famous five replaced a white girl with a black trans one. In Scotland they decided to allow male rapists to do time in female prisons and labour have no problem with allowing a part time trans woman actor to put on a dress when it comes to throwing his handbag in the ring in which to become a MP, but when hes doing his day job as an actor why hes a bloke.

          Todays so called leaders be it in Parliament, Business, The Police, The Armed forces still think as they did when they were Students in University . Which helps explain the huge rise in people who hate everything about the Uk, who demand that we pay damages for every cause going. These are people who see the military as nothing more than a force for evil and it should be divested of funding , with it been spent on wonk causes, which is why so many so called victims of Slavery are demanding trillions for the emotional hurt of running their own countries down, getting bailed out by the West and then running up a tab with china which refuses to let them off.

          Me I’m sick to death with all of this shite , all they have done is destroy the fabric of society that all countries require in which to remain stable , I mean just look at Sweden

          • I would actually suggest the trend you outline is now reversing (very slowly) “positive” discrimination has been legally challenged and organisation like the Labour Party have ceased to have all female shortlists due to this. They have never had shortlists based on race or sexual orientation.

          • Agree. I think we have weathered the storm, largely to some high profile names like J.K Rowling who have skilfully resisted being ‘cancelled’ by social media. And to women like Mary Onuoha who have won court cases for unfair dismissal. But we can’t drop our guard.

          • Agreed society has been turned on it’s head if a white person goes for a job and an ethnic also applies the ethnic will get the job and crow about it diversity prowess

  15. Embarrassing and unfortunate timing; but given the state we find ourselves its the smart move. Westminster refit was planned anyway. Glasgow build has been accelerated I think and you can crew 3 T31s for every 2 T23s. Bulwark is planned to reenter service so there must be crew for her. The DT is not my trusted source of defence info.

  16. Better be putting those funds into type 32 or arming type 31 sufficiently.

    Either way reduction of numbers on the frontline, reduction of tanks, Typhoons and now, frigates down to 9. Tory Britain strikes again.

  18. Odd timing, the same week as shipping badly needs protecting in and around yeman and somolia and it is decided to cut the fleet by 2.

    The manning issues needs to be addressed, but only way that will happen is if extra funding is found.

  22. A reasonable point, anger and disappointment is understandable and acceptable, expressing is this way is not and brings the site into disrepute.

    • Sorry but are you saying that dissatisfaction with current defence spending is acceptable, calling for a coup is not? If so we agree.

      If you are saying calling for a coup is wrong but calling it treason is also wrong then we disagree. Calling for the overthrow of the elected government is treason.

  23. Clear misinformation from what was once a widely respected Newspaper. HMS Westminster has not been recently refurbished. On the contrary, she was at the start of a major refit and that has been stopped due to the material condition of the ship. HMS Argyll will stay in service until 2028. Ignore the toilet paper tabloids.

  24. Moving crew to new ships is the bright side. The reality is both ships material state is likely beyond economic repair.
    I wonder how many of the crew will still be in the navy when either T26 or T31 First of Class enter service?

  25. I’m just saying… why do people seem surprised that this would actually happen? This has been on the cards for months!

    How to run your armed forces, when you have no experience, no military knowledge, and certainly no sense of reality, of living in the ‘real world’, and the challenges and potential threats that it entails.

    Its fair to say that I loathe bean counters, and all that they represent!

  26. Recruitment crisis caused by what exactly ?

    Overly sensitive and highly entitled generation ? Or it it a case of the MOD being tight fisted again ?

  27. The same folk who are also blaming the problems on the ‘ethnics’ but never get pulled up on it. Site has gone to the dogs.

  28. Gen X not interested. Wonder why.

    Well, when your media, Colleges, Schools, Universities and the woke tell your citizens that your country is rubbish and does not deserve to be defended, is nasty, is racist, and should have colonial guilt all day long, why would anybody join the Armed Forces? You can’t even fly the Union Jack without scorn now in the UK. Why fight for something that has no value??

    • Some, but not all of Gen Z view everything through the narrow lens of racism, oppression, and colonialism.

      We have to ask ourselves where these damaging narratives come from.

    • The problem is. We have a very high employment rate. Which means the Armed Force’s have greater competition to find recruits. Its a very competitive jobs market. Recession and high unemployment is usually good for Armed Force’s recruitment. But Recession is bad for all of us.

      • Hi Robert I think the problem you reference is pretty ubiquitous. The NZDF is losing staff to Australia and has a real retention and recruitment problem. Interesting to note doctor’s and nursing staff are exciting the UK for Aussie – largely the lifestyle and possibly slightly better salary/tax.

        The number of UK immigrants to NZ is significantly down however, indicating Aussie is the preferred choice . That being said, many young kiwis head over there too.

  29. Is there any ordering of additional T31s that was mentioned a while back on another post? There should be some transferable or sellable kit (CAMM, Artisan, TWS) on these two ships.

    • Try a bit of humour 😀, I take it your a tory ,but then living in this once great country is now a total craphole,hollowed out defence policy and that is the tip of the iceberg ,a military coup would be welcome

        • And how do you think a military coup is going to improve anything? It would be the worst possible thing to happen to this country. And then what? What would the plan be for the long term? If you don’t like how the nation is run. Vote for someone else. Or become an independent MP.

          • So David. You have absolutely nothing to contribute. You know nothing about me. And you can take that language elsewhere.

          • I served in the RN for 14 years popeye. What have you done? Make comments like that on Facebook if you enjoy using capital letters like a child.

          • Just let you know arsehole ex rn myself ,minesweepers,so cunts like you watch our armed forces cut to fuck ,your a disgrace to our people who been shit upon by the tories but then you a fucking tory ,I WILL SAY TO YOUR FACE CUNT ,

          • In fact I remember a guy who got kicked out for rape allegations and being a paedophile named blay are you the same one ?

  31. The Times is now reporting that Albion and Bulwark are to be mothballed, Wallace blocked the move, but Shapps has approved it apparently.

  32. Some absolutely madhouse opinions in these comments. Somehow attacking Labour for 14 years of Tory government cutting and outsourcing.

    Tory legacy, to remind some of you clowns;

    -Gutted multiple capabilities within 6 months of taking office under Cameron.
    Did not raise spending with inflation.
    -Performed some major creative accounting to bring in a bunch of items that were never in the defence budget before, in order to pretend they were meeting the 2% NATO budget.
    -Tried to get the QE class cancelled. Fortunately they decided this would be too expensive to do at the time. Judging by Sunak’s decision on HS2 I guess we can thank the gods he wasn’t knocking around the halls of power at the time.
    -Gutting force numbers. E.g Army, to replace with freebie Reserves. Unmitigated disaster that saw them scrambling to rehire.
    -Kept pay rises below inflation, resulting in real term cuts in wages.
    -Outsourced maintenance of housing. Went swimmingly judging by the reports of homes in disrepair and members of the forces living in squalor.
    -Outsourced recruitment, resulting in the recruitment crisis the article refers to because it turns out the outsourcing has also been an unmitigated disaster that has served to – in typical Tory fashion these past 14 years – done little but siphoned money into their mate’s pockets, at great expense to the taxpayer and the various public services.

    Put it in perspective before you claim they’re all the same. The last 14 years have absolutely *nothing* – in any department – positive to say.

    • Spot on. Of course every point that you make over the last 14 years is down to Labour, despite Cameron/Osborne/Fox malign 2010 SDSR. And today the Torygraph is reporting Bulwark and Albion are to be “mothballed” – and that the MoD has posted the vacancy a Rear-Admiral to be responsible for the nation’s nuclear deterrent amid the growing RN recruitment crisis on LinkedIn

    • It is naive to suggest Labour are any better. People did the same in reverse when the Tories were soon to come to power, then the 2010 cuts happened.
      The 13 years Labour were in power were no better for the armed forces, decisions made then has caused a lot of what’s happened now, just like decisions made by the Tories will only really come to affect when Labour are in power.

      The Tories will be in power for 1 more year max, in reality it will be less than that. Labour will be in power for the next 10 years minimum. That is why it is more important to talk about Labour than the Tories.

      So far Starmer hasn’t committed to anything in regards to defence which is a worry.

      • Categorically untrue.

        Despite post-Cold War cuts, defence spending was more than 2%, all forces were larger, with substantially more assets. The Marines were invested in with the likes of Bulwark/Albion (who are also now to be scrapped for lack of manpower!!!) the Carriers ordered, Typhoon committed to etc etc.

        You simply cannot say Labour are no better with a legacy like the Tories. They loved to talk up the forces and throw out a bit of jingoism from time to time, but just like their self-created reputation on the economy; it lies in tatters.

        • It is not categorically untrue.
          Albion, Bulwark and Ocean were ordered by the Tories.
          Cuts to personnel under Labour were higher both in overall numbers and as a percentage.

          Privatisation was accelerated, WFM was introduced, army reserves no longer able to deploy as whole units, LIMAWS R and G cancelled, CVRT replacement messed about, CH2 upgrade canned. Labour ended the decades old ‘tradition’ of regularly upgrading AFVs. I can’t think of a single non engineer AFV ordered under Labour, and very few ships.

          RAF/FAA fast jet squadrons and Royal Navy ship numbers were cut in half under Labour.

          I’m not trying to defend the Tories, I’ve never voted Tory and I likely never will, but pretending like Labour are any better is disingenuous.

        • The context being Labour got the UK involved in two wars that we didn’t need to get involved in and that is why both the Navy and Air Force were cut in half, and the army’s AFV fleet neglected.

          Not the win you think it is.

          • Ho, ho, ho.

            Counter factuals.

            I’ll take the last one first, you suggest that:
            When our NATO ally was attacked, we should just have turned our backs on Article 5? Nice one Louise; any other gems on collective defence; are you a Chicom/Rus troll?

          • The UK spent the most out of any country (including the US) in Afghanistan as a share of GDP.

            We did not need to get involved in Afghanistan in such a scale, we didn’t need to get involved in Iraq at all.

            Getting involved in Iraq and so heavily Afghanistan has damaged the British military far more than not getting involved. But strange to call me a Russian troll when I’m advocating against a war that cut the Navy and Air Force in half. Russia doesn’t care less whether we could deploy 1 or 2 armoured brigades in Eastern Europe when they are facing dozens of armoured brigades there anyway.
            Russia is very happy that SSNs were cut from 12 to 7, or fast jet squadrons from 22 to 13, or MPA from 21 to 9, or escorts from 38 to 19 though.

          • We deployed too few land forces in Helmand, Afghanistan – initially little more than a BG to cover a province the size of Wales, but then upped to a Brigade group. The task required an Inf Div plus supporting Div Tps. Not saying we had one to spare etc. but we absolutely did not go into Afghan with too many troops.

            I agree we should not have gone into Iraq in 2003.

          • I’m not saying it was wrong to go into Afghanistan, but in hindsight it really harmed the armed forces. In that time period barely anything was bought that wasn’t a UOR.

            Helmand wasn’t so much a case of Britain not fully committing, but rather it being too big for Britain. The army was not large enough.

          • It certainly was not wrong to go into Afghanistan – NATO called an Article 5 – the first and only one since 1949.
            Mission change or creep by HMG relating to the force in Afghanistan since 7/10/01 was a problem but that’s another story, and I touch on only one aspect of that below.

            In 2006, Britain should have pressed to have been allocated the somewhat smaller Kandahar province, not just because it was smaller but for relevant historical reasons. A small force with lots of engineers and loggies and relatively few bayonets initially was in line with the Government-assigned Provincial Reconstruction Team mission – but as this rapidly morphed into PRT + COIN operation then we needed to ramp up to very much more than the bde gp that Task Force Helmand became.
            Up to 2010, Britain had a reg army averaging 113k and an army reserve of 45k plus RM Bde of c.6k. A major issue was that Op TELIC ran from 2003 to 2009 at very large scale then ramped down to exit in 2011.

            You are right that the army was not large enough to put a div into Afghan and sustain a large deployment in Iraq, both being enduring roulemont operations. We could not roule a Div into Afghan, considering all of the above. We should have ‘eaten humble pie’ and teamed with another nation in a big way to get up to divisional strength, so as to properly cover Helmand. Other nations were in Helmand but in penny packets. [In the end the US helped us hugely with the Obama surge into Helmand – thanks Yanks].

            Much kit was of course procured by UOR, inevitably, for TELIC and HERRICK. It should not however have hampered the procurement of core kit and the upgrade of legacy core kit as much as it did though. There’s a book that needs to be written about that.

  34. Theyve given the country away without a shot being fired, we now live in a craphole crime ridden cesspit run by pathetic childush morons of any political party.who would want to put their life on the line and join the woke navy.

  35. Here, here. The claimed loss of two more frigates is both disappointing and very concerning – but calling for a coup in the U.K. is either: an emotional (and somewhat silly) knee jerk reaction, or, the posters do not really hold the ‘true’ British values they profess so vociferously to hold. As well as that, suggesting all the UK’s woes are the fault of non-white Brits and ‘wokeness’ is both ridiculous and abhorrent.

    Do those posters really want the military in charge of running this country? Given the reasonable strong criticism of the military for various failures (such as the Ajax procurement), do they really want service personnel to be responsible for running the NHS, regulating AI, developing education/social care/competition etc policy?

    Very distasteful. Sure, the U.K. has its issues and the current government has been awful, but calling for a coup – go take a long hard look in the mirror!

    • Well no.

      All smokers could be shot. Saves the NHS.
      All social workers could be shot.
      All teaching assistants with degrees either become teachers or get shot.
      Rail staff employed on delay attribution get retrained on track maintenance or get shot.
      Rail is nationalised.
      Small medium reactors are built for every city and climate activists either train to be site employees or get shot.
      Hyundai etc al are thrown out of the UK and train building returns to the UK
      Landlords with multiple unoccupied houses are forced to pay 10* council tax on houses.
      Landlords with multiple occupied houses are forced to pay 10* council tax on houses
      In either of the above two situations, those that refuse are shot.
      Supermarkets are forced to relinquish brown field sites for redevelopment or their executives get shot.
      Moped gangs just get shot
      People carrying knives and any other offensive weapons, piercings, woke views and a love of lgbtqxyz, get shot on site.

      Haven’t covered it all, for instance, drivers in Cumbria with high powered dipped headlights get gimpied on site and hung from the nearest lampposts… I’ll be able to see where I am going again at night.

      There.

  36. I am concerned for the current and short term future of the RN to continue its operational deployments. Recruitment should be a priority, as no matter what new kit you buy it needs to be operated and crewed. Money is as always tight and getting tighter, but the RN need to be the priority for any funding and kit. Online recruitment, is wank.

    As someone has stated, recruiting offices are the way forward, as it is a very visible statement of intent, manned by experienced and knowledgeable people, who can offer a real-time service, answer questions and concerns and offer varied and possibly unknown job options. Alas, not to be as its all down to cash and a system whereby the vast majority of our so called leaders have never served, know no-one who has served and have an absolute lack of subject matter knowledge, who can only see cheap ways of saving a few quid (to squander on their pals with shit PFI type contracts) and with a view to getting up the next stage of the greasy pole of politics and senior command.

    • Ahh Airborne, nice to hear you. I agree,but you’ll forgive me being weary on recruitment offices. The one in Belfast was monotonously n regularly “had its curtains changed”. 😳👍

      • Morning Graham, I not a professional soldier so I won’t comment on possible repercussions. Let’s say for the moment that problem = opportunity. It would seem reckless to reduce the numbers of highly skilled troops.
        I posted elsewhere that any decision to dispose of or mothball the LPDs would only be taken as part of a defence review and with consultation with the US. Of course it could well be that the decision was taken in principle a while ago and that the politicians have just been waiting for the debate and anger to subside and for a suitable opportunity to implement it.

        • Hi Paul, Hopefully you did not misunderstand me, but I may not have been clear enough. I was not of course advocating the reduction of 3 Cdo Bde in size – I served in Afghan alongside the Bde and thay are awesome.
          But if Shapps sold or mothballed two LHDs, or even just one – he would use that to logically point to a reduction in the size of the Cdo Bde.
          Militarily, a brigade is the smallest entity that the commando force can be.
          I don’t think that Shapps would feel the need to justify such a cut with the cloak of a defence review – in essence there was a mini-review only 9 months ago. He certainly would not feel the need to have a very embarrassing discussion with the Americans – what if they vehemently opposed the move? He would then be acting against a clearly stated American point of view.

          • Morning Graham, I understand. Thx for the clarification. My reading of the Shapps appointment is that Sunak wanted to replace Ben Wallace with a ‘yes’ man. Wallace was combative, knowledgable and well respected. He has integrity and would be at risk of speaking the truth openly – a risk to the government in an election year.
            Is there a strategy to further reduce troop numbers and to use HMS Westminster lifex problem as an excuse? Don’t know, but since we can’t trust the government to give us the right time of day I understand your concern.

          • I read that too – that Sunak wanted a Yes man in Defence, who would not be difficult and ask for more money for Defence etc

            I know of no political strategy to reduce RM Cdo numbers, just saying it may be a Shapps corollary to mothballing one or two Albion class LPDs. Not sure how Westminster’s fate/future is linked to RM Cdo future.

          • The Westminster link is only at the level of budget pressures. For what its worth I think the UK as a whole and Defence needs to hold its nerve this year. We are probably at the nadir. We are paying the price of bad decisions in the past and an an inability to make decisions. The consequences are still working their way out but persistence in lots of sensible decisions is bearing fruit; new radar for Typhoon, NSM, Wildcat upgrade, T26 and T31, the Tides, Ajax, Sea Ceptor, T45 corrections and upgrades, Boxer, Archer, QEC, Astute, C3. The trend is good; we have just let things get too small so we probably can’t make and / or absorb new kit faster than we are anyway.

          • Thanks Paul. OT a bit, but build speed is slow for everything – the army is only going to get 60 Boxers per year, when full rate production has started. It will take over 10 years just to deliver Tranche 1 and 2.

          • You may be on to something…quote from Forces.net
            ’The Defence Secrerary has told MPs he has asked the head of the Royal Navy to come up with a plan for future Royal Marines deployments’

  38. This is due to 30 years of total mismanagement within Government to the responsibility of Defence starting with Major and progressing through Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. Insufficient long term planning and a budget slashed in favour of the sacred cow NHS and Welfare. God forbid we need to take any form of military action in the next 10 years!

  39. Westminster is currently inactive, but Argyll is in refit, with return to fleet in the near future. Be a bit stupid to decommission her?

    • I suspect this is the government testing the waters. They’ll announce in a few weeks or months that they’ve decided to keep Argyll in service but Westminster has to retire (what was obvious anyway but not to the general public). As such the cuts seem less bad. The same happened with the tanks, they leaked to the press all tanks would go, then they announced they wouldn’t after the public reaction was bad.

    • And the point is they are not capable , well operational capable anyway.

      Both are in need of deep and extensive refits that will take years to complete and at massive cost.

      They are not contributing Operational Capability to the Fleet at present and will not be projected to deliver OC for another 24-36 months. It’s not just the refits and the money spent physically doing the refit that is the issue. You need to ramp up manpower to get onboard and to start to bring the vessel out of refit and into training time to bring it from a basic Sea Safety level of competency up to full Task Group integration levels of Competency and Capability. 24-36 months will also mean that another lot of crew training for replacements will need to be factored in. A sea draft is 30-36 months so wholesale crew replacements will be needed.

  41. So much for the government commitment to increase the size of the fleet , yet more cuts to our once great Royal Navy . How are we supposed to put carrier groups together , how are we supposed to defend our seas with this pitifully small amount of ships . It’s time someone in government got a grip , get rid of the army of pen pushers and start a proper recruitment drive to get these ships manned and back to sea where they belong

  42. It makes no sense to decommission any military asset at this time. Why don’t the Government mobilise the RN reserves to man those ships?

        • What next, conscription, national service,I’m not having a go bye the way. Just like to know if there is an answer to the problem.
          😊

          • I remember the introduction of PVR, (premature voluntary release) in the 70’s,for whatever reason. Paid your ÂŁ250 quids and then instant civilian. The amount of experienced ratings leaving was phenomenal. Yes, standards did drop,trades did their jobs, and a little bit of others. 1man 3 jobs. I felt that the RN never recovered from that. I suspect it went to far, and another recruitment drive was in hand…. I finished 25years man and boy.

  43. News today that HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark could be retired from active service under plans put forward by Defence Secretary Grant Shapps.

    This is the same man who claims to be pushing for Defence spending to be increased to 3% of GDP!

    Scrapping those two ships will make much of the Royal Marines irrelevant. Nothing in the fleet can deploy such numbers of our elite fighting force on a beach or via helicopter. Obviously, I would have to see the Corps shrink any further. The head sheds in the MOD need to remember, those Marines went through a training course far, far longer than anyone else. I remember sitting in my room on the second day thinking the next 36 months was my personal Everest.

    Yes, Shapps, boost spending to 3%, and use it on housing, schools, facilities for service personnel and their families:

    1. Give our servicemen and women a big pay increase.
    2. Offer a signing bounty.
    3. The best redeployment training and prep for second careers. Change the entire system and outdo the best schemes offered by the US military.
    4. Pay for active service personnel to have free degrees, diplomas and professional qualifications whether it’s schooling or practical vocations (yes, I know we already have some limited schemes, but they need to be re-looking at and re-vamping).
    5. Give our veterans a free private health system and make them automatically in front of ANY queue for housing and training for the rest of their lives after serving a qualifying period of 6 years.
    6. Get companies nationwide from the smallest corner shop to the largest multinationals to give a genuine Armed Forces discount on shopping.
    7. Encourage a system whereby these people are automatically moved to the front of any queue, whether it’s at TESCO, or flying on a plane.
    8. Promote a nationwide programme of “Valued because”, you serve/served in our Armed Forces.

    Only by making “Service has benefits”, will we be able to encourage Gen Z to start joining up.

    I’m sure I have missed a whole host of things, if anyone can add to it, please do.

  44. So scrap ships early to save money, then deflect and blame everyone and everything else, as the reason for doing so.

    We cant recruit 300+ folk, to keep a ship afloat? What utter bollocks!

    So Gen X Brits are idle little bleeders, who do not have what it takes to join the armed forces? If I were a Gen X, I’d be quite offended by that crap!

    Nothing whatsoever to do with the tory party privatising the recruitment process then? Turning that ‘tap’ on and off when told to do so, saves loads of money, which is exactly why that little wheeze came about in the first place.

    My guess… At least 1 of the LPD’s will be sold this year, and HMS Argyll will be scrapped this year. ‘They’ may even announce that HMS Westminster will be scrapped in 2025 as well.

  45. Looks like some astute reporter has spotted that 2024 was to see both Bulwark reactivated and Argyl to finish her upkeep but that there aren’t enough crew for both. Queue yet another Daily Telegraph panic defence article, assisted by disAble Seaman Shapps, who probably couldn’t manage his way out of a paper bag. I’m sure someone competent within the RN is on the case. Click bait.

  46. The ethnic in charge to destroy the UK from within? You write some good stuff, Farouk. But respectfully, that is nonsense.

  47. After decades of disarmament its a bit late to do anything now. But without effective conventional armaments we will have to quickly go nuclear. What a relief we’ve got that option!!

  49. Did HMS Argyll actually receive a refit?
    We all know HMS Westminsters refit was cancelled when they saw her actual condition and was more fatigued than expected and last I heard of HMS Argyll was Nov 2022 when she was commencing a 9 week strip down so that they could assess her underlying structural condition.

  51. How about scraping the MoD instead and use those savings to fund the services to pre the (sic) peace dividend levels? It’s that level of bureaucracy which has whittled down the services ever since it was created.

    From a naval perspective, I’d restore Royal Dockyard construction capabilities. Watch industry become more competitive with their tender as a result.

  52. It occurs to me that this is down to some government numpty thinking the best way to cushion the announcement of Westminster going to the scrapheap is to claim two frigates are going to be decommissioned, then when it’s only one, people will breathe a sigh of relief and thank Mr Shapps for saving Argyll rather than having a go at him. Frankly if they’d just get on with the scrapping of Westminster and putting in some remedial effort to the Navy rather than the politics, I’d be happier. It does us no good to postpone the inevitable.

    I don’t know if the Telegraph journo is sloppy or playing ball. She’s been around long enough to know the state of Westminster, that it hasn’t been “recently reburbished at huge expense to the taxpayer”, and the probable real cause for its demise — too expensive to refurbish.

    • Regarding the DT Journo,they are not entirely wrong,Westminster had been through LIFEX which for all T23’s was justified but expensive,its the post – LIFEX Refits that will cause some future issues.

      • I think you are stretching a point, Paul. Can we call a process that took place between 2014 and 2017 “recently refurbished”? Westminster’s was the first Lifex, and we got the value from it. These things only last for 5 or so years.

        • My point is simply while the likes of us posting on here have some knowledge ( extensive in some cases – GB etc ) of the processes and intricacies of Refits and Maintenance schedules regarding Warships a DT Journo doesn’t,she was on the right lines with LIFEX,and this may have been her point of reference,but she was unaware of the timelines of work needed afterwards.

  54. I don’t think many want to jion the services these days, people are disconnect from defence of the country. And add to this the fact that there’s easier options.

    I don’t see its related directly to recruitment as such. More the political class have undermined what it is to serve. Its not just the services, you can’t get half of the country to get into an office now let alone get them on a ship for a couple of months. There’s no sign of things changing unfortunaltely and infact likely to get worse irrespective of who’s in power. I beleive the expression is ;

    Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.

    Clearly we’re in the latter part being led by weak polical class inspiring weakness throughout society from both parties and we will untilmately face hardtimes(proper).

  55. One carrier requires 700 crew more with full airwing embarked, so mothball, lease one or sell one and you crew 7 T31s. You can see which way the next defence review is heading.

  57. The 2021 Integrated Review implied that the RN would keep a two escorts forward based East of Suez from the late 2020’s – a T23 at the United Kingdom Naval Support Facility in Bahrain and T31 at UK Joint Logistics Support Base in Oman. There is strong argument that the second vessel is needed NOW, but without HMS Westminster and Argyll re-appearing in the operational fleet, it is simple maths that 15 frigates and destroyers (c.7 operational and deployable) can’t meet all the high priority needs, e.g. planning assumptions for CSG operations assume that the carrier will be escorted by two T45’s and two T23’s with tail. 

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