HMS Duncan, following a significant overhaul and a successful completion of the Basic Operational Sea Training (BOST) off the south coast for a duration of five weeks, is now en route to participate in NATO exercises after showcasing its unparalleled operational capabilities.
The Portsmouth-based Type 45 destroyer bid farewell to the UK waters and has arrived in Toulon to join its NATO counterparts for a French-led exercise.
The Fleet Operational Standards and Training (FOST) teams, responsible for preparing Royal Navy warships for front-line duties, have put the crew and ship through rigorous testing and training, ensuring their readiness for the forthcoming tasks.
As the crew prepares the ship for the next level, the upcoming Exercise Orion in the Mediterranean, which involves operating with allies as part of a large task group, will be an excellent opportunity to test HMS Duncan’s prowess in coordination and execution, further demonstrating its exceptional performance capabilities.
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If I can repeat myself, you really hope post PIP that they maximise the the CAMM and NSM fit out to well and truly compliment the Asters. If no MK41s, 24 CAMM is okay but they can go 36 or 48, and with NSM, there’s room for 4×4 for 16. These ships need more punch, with all the talk about enhancing “lethality”, then please do it. They’re only 1/2 way through their lives and there’s only six of them!
They are doing it. 48 Aster with the 24 CAMM upgrade is a lot of fire power for what is already a massively capable air defence destroyer. NSM will add a very capable land attack capability. The overall capability of a warship isn’t just about how many missiles it carries. Much more to it than that.
Hi Robert, I totally get that, but missile shots are just that too and especially for long deployments like CSG, there’s no reloading at sea (yet). Even if covering the UK land area durroubds, surely the more the better. Why do just 24 CAMM, that’s really only 1 RAM full, when you can go double or even 36. The Italian DDX has 4×4 AShMs, as does the US Constellation class, and numerous Chinese and Russian ships too. My basic gripe looking at this from the outside is that if they can go a bit further they should. There’s still 10-15 years left on these ships. But if not, some improvements are definitely better than just the same. Maybe the likes of a Tobias Ellwood can have a whisper “more” in someone’s ear. 😆
*UK land area and surrounds…
It’s like all defence procurement though, its a balancing act between what is technically possible and the budget available. And the RN doesn’t have unlimited funds. Even if the vessels are capable of carrying even more CAMMS, this is still an extremely formidable missile load out for the money available, and also the quality and capability of the weapons carried. And when working as part of a task group with another T45 and T23’s that’s a lot of firepower. Add in NSM and you have a truly world class destroyer. 👍
“ numerous Chinese and Russian ships too.”
I’d be confident that A30 & CEPTOR would work as advertised.
I’d be confident the Russian ships are barely functional and that the Chinese ships look good but lack sophistication or DC.
I’s far rather be on a ship on which I have total confidence in the systems being 100% fightable. I’d also be confident that all the shots would be well targeted.
As Robert says down the thread with AShM fitted that is a massive punch with three missile types. But above all the best targeting system in the game.
Yes, quality, accuracy, reliability and in quantity.
They are finally becoming the ships they should have been albeit with more money needing to be spent to achieve that.
Giving them TBMD capability and adding CAMM makes them top rank AAW vessels (though adding CEC would make them evenbetter). The addition of NSM in the ASuW role is great to see and should have been there from the start as it was for T45’s French and Italian equivalents). And early indications are that PIP has solved the propulsion issues.
Their one weakness remains ASW protection. It’s been said that they’re noisy and that their very basic sonars are no longer operating. They normally deploy with Wildcat which also has no ASW detection gear.
The ASW weakness don’t matter in a task group. Carriers and RFA’s generate plenty of noise anyway and T23/T26 provide excellent sonars and Merlin for ASW operations. I think though we do need to avoid deploying T45’sindependently or as the sole escort to things like the Littoral Response Group wherever there might be a submarine threat.
Hi Steve, that’s another thing. I don’t see why they can’t improve the ASW ability of the T45s too. Add a ASW UAV, upgrade Wildcats with dipping sonar and do some upgrade with the sonar on board so that it can edit out some of the ship noise? Crazy, a capital ship like this, with not much or no ASW ability… are potential adversary subs going to avoid you because you don’t have any ASW ability? Of course not! Same with not having AShMs. At least the latter is getting rectified. That’s my 5c worth as we say here in 🇦🇺.
“ and do some upgrade with the sonar on board so that it can edit out some of the ship noise”
All sonar noise cancels the ships noise. It is one of the reasons the noise ranges are used so that that ship can put in its current noise fingerprint. The noise fingerprint changes over time with wear and replacement of parts.
Although I should add that if the ship is very noisy it limits the gain on the sonar receivers which reduces the sensitivity as the filtering is done post digitisation.
If you had some very large noise spike (narrow frequency) from ships noise you might put an analogue filter in front of the digitiser. However, this does distort phase which means it is harder to spatially locate a target.
This effectively means the digitiser isn’t filled to bandwidth (so S/N is degraded) and the LSB isn’t used. Although LSB is more a theoretical concept, these days, as they will likely be single bit style A->D converters.
Hi SB,i have to admit sone of this is above me but i kind of get the gist. To me , if they have designed and placed a sonar on a ship like the T45 from its inception they should be able to make it work and even improve upon it through its life even if not to a fuller spec of say a T23/26. I think some have said that the sonars are even switched off due to a lack of sailors to man them and available money probably.
I think folk are missing the point the T45 was built for AAW not ASW, that is the job of T23/T26. To start trying to turn it into an ASW platform would not be doable and use funds that should be used for more vital things. As long as a T45 can spot an in bound torpedo and deploy countermeasures that is all that it needs to do.
I totally agree.
Turning T45 into a phoney ASW whatever is a waste of budget.
Although I do suspect the sonar will have been quietly ‘improved’…..for other reasons…..
No, no improvements on sonar are a waste. This is a billion pound plus warship. Show me the money…and what it’s being spent on.
The more RN reduce the escorts numbers the more crucial they will have to be multipurpose.
And ships can still have their core specialities.
Have to disagree with you here. T45s have their main AAW role and armaments, that’s understood, but having good secondary abilities such as ASW, ASHMs, helos, UAVs, is just basic and sensible. It doesn’t have to be to a T23/T26 standard and it certainly does not have to be labelled “phoney”. This is warship and it should be armed comprehensively like one. Agree that money is always an issue and there are other priorities. We’ll see what comes.
Like this SB, good information.
While I agree a dipping sonar on Wildcat would be useful, the T45 is dedicated air defence destroyer. If we need to hunt subs, we send a T23 or T26 when they enter service. These are the perfect tools for the job. The threat environment is constantly monitored, not many Russian subs move without us knowing about it. That’s why when we hear stories of Russian under water activity, its a T23 with a Merlin doing the leg work. 👍
I agree, that when we do the hunting and choose when and where we place or ships and subs, but when our vessels are being hunted does every single RN ship have the ability to defend itself against subs, torpedos, hypersonics? Yes, some more than others but I don’t think we can say all to 100%. That’s surely weakness that needs to be worked on considering we have so few ships though numbers are growing, things are looking brighter and ASW technology is evolving.
By the way I know you’re talking from experience as are others here. I’m just genuinely curious about some things.
I get what you are saying, mate, and understand the concern. But nations don’t just start lobbing hypersonic missiles at each other out of the blue. Not that any of them have proven to work yet, let alone target a modern Western warship. Or subs start letting off torpedoes. Major political fallout needs to happen first. Look at the weapons we are providing to Ukraine, yet the Russians still aren’t attacking Western warships or aircraft. War isn’t simple. Global politics plays a huge part. I would feel very confident in any RN warship against any adversary. Tactics, experience, situational awareness plays an even bigger part then the missiles themselves. Its one big game of chess, and we play it very well indeed.
Do you reckon the Navy needs more Wildcats and Merlins? I know we’d all like to see more. I’m sure the powers that be know the answer to that too. Lol.😆
I’d like to see more of everything. But don’t see more Wildcats and Merlins being the priority. More the state of the Army and getting future kit into service. For the RN, that means delivering T26 and T31 and the final Astute class boats. And building on carrier strike.
Merlin yes. Wildcats no. The Wildcat has terrible capabilities in relation to its cost (range, Endurance, ASW sensors). It was little more than a job creation scheme for British industry. Merlin on the other hand is exceptional. I’d like to see us build 3-4 Merlin’s per year but modified to also carry Sea Venom and fade Wildcat out of service
try asking the fleet techs that keep them in the air! Brilliant capability but nightmare engine and gear box!
I’d heard that mate. Is that due to the age, the design or a bit of both?
They said to me was good kit but amazing complex clutch gearbox engine combo design
By that logic we wouldn’t fit SAM’s to T26 as we’d send a T45 whenever operations within range of land based aircraft were planned.
We don’t know where every Russian, Chinese, Iranian or North Korean submarine is 100% of the time. That’s why every other Western Navy fits their AAW ships and the helicopters that they carry with ASW sensors.
We’ve operated T45 alone in the Black Sea and the Gulf where an ASW threat to them exists if things went hot which they can neither detect or prosecute
T26 carries Sea Ceptor to defend itself, and other warships around it. That is why they are called escorts. Regardless of there primary role.
Which is why the T45 should have ASW sensors so that it can defend itself and other warships around it. That is why they are called escorts. Regardless “there” primary role
Nice try SteveP, you’ll have to do better than that.
Does Wildcat not carry sonar bouys?
Nope
It is a small cab. Sonar bouys are bulky but light and need a relay station. You need quite a few for them to be effective.
This is where a drone UAV comes in as dropping buoys and hanging around to relay signals is the kind of thing they can do well.
Thanks useful . Has any thought been given to mounting a sonar bouy dispenser on a mothership . You could carry loads of them and lay a pattern in a relatively short period of time. In peacetime you could even fit then with a smoke dispenser and employ the Lynx to pick them up.
Yes, you can fire out sonar buoys from a ship but they are usually dropped from the cab.
I’d be amazed if RN didn’t have a UAV set up for this shortly it is a perfect UAV task.
Working collaboratively with Merlin would be a force multiplier.
I also think once the baggers are replaced with drones that those Merlin’s should go back to ASW use.
Urgh, FOST teams on board. Drills drills and more drills. Essential training, but not the most fun few weeks at sea unless you really get off on that sort of thing.
I hope the T83 is built in greter numbers then T45. We need at least 8 to 10 not 6!