The helicopter support to British Forces Cyprus has transferred from the Griffin HAR Mk.2 to the Puma HC Mk.2.
The official transition to the Puma Force in Cyprus took place on 31 March.
The final sortie by a Griffin saw it lead the newly tasked Puma over RAF Akrotiri with Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston, and Commander British Forces Air Vice-Marshal Peter Squires aboard.
Since 2003, the Griffin has been an integral part of the capabilities for British Forces supporting joint UK/Cyprus training and military exercises, and undertaking emergency response and firefighting duties.
The Puma team will take over the capabilities from the Griffin from 1 April 2023.
This transfer of helicopter capability marks an important milestone for British Forces in Cyprus. The Puma HC Mk.2 is a versatile helicopter capable of conducting a wide range of missions, including troop transport, medical evacuation, and disaster relief operations. The Puma is also equipped with advanced defensive systems to enhance its survivability in hostile environments.
The transition from the Griffin to the Puma marks a significant improvement in capability for British Forces in Cyprus, providing enhanced operational flexibility, agility, and responsiveness.
You can read more on this from the RAF here.
I thought that the Puma Helicopters were being retired?
The Puma’s are being retired and replaced come 2025, But the Griffin is being retired prior to that date. The idea is that the Puma will take over the role before both systems are fully replaced by the winner of the New Medium Helicopter Program to be announced at some point this year (Likely to be either the AW149 from Leonardo or the H175M from Airbus)
Thanks.
It does give me cause for concern when the deployment of the 50 years in service PUMA (yes I know it was upgraded 10 years ago by Romania) is promoted by the MOD as:
“”The transition from the Griffin to the Puma marks a significant improvement in capability for British Forces in Cyprus, providing enhanced operational flexibility, agility, and responsiveness.””
Why do i get the impression that the new Medium Helicopter program is not only going to be cut in numbers procured, but will be set back a few years
Because after a few years when a handful are ordered many ( most of Joe public reading of it ) will forget the Griffons of the AAC flights and 84 Sqn RAF even existed.
Standard MoD practice.
Thanks
A little off topic, just been announced that Romania is going to purchase the F35
Good news 👍
Morning Farouk
Any confirmation as to how many?
Makes a lot of sense to eventually replace both Puma and the small fleets of Griffin’s and Bell’s with one type.
Are there still AAC flights based in Canada and Kenya supporting those training facilities too?
29 Flt AAC is currently still active in BATUS, however it’s looking increasingly less likely that once Gazelle is retired that there will be no permanent replacement, so 29 Flt will be disbanded. We will most probably see WC from 1 AAC surge during major exercises to provide ‘Red top’ and CASEVAC. An alternative currently being considered is a civilian contracted aviation provision to provide CASEVAC, not sure if there’s such a plan for ‘Red tops’. With regards to Kenya. There is no permanent AAC flight based there. Puma did take the BATUK role on for a while, not sure… Read more »
Same happened in Brunei.
I see through the “positive spin” they are putting on this.
We are replacing in service assets with in service assets.
The same, or more, with less. As usual.
Happened with CHF Sea kings “replaced” by Merlin.
Happened with Tornado GR4 retired and “replaced”by Typhoon. The in service Typhoon force of 5 Sqns became 7 to artificially retain the same number of Sqns. No increase in assets.
I’m waiting for the melt down here when the Puma replacement comes in so expensive half the number required are bought.
If they go for the Expensive Show Pony from Leonardo or Airbus expect numbers to be Cut. and late and sub standard. Or Polish Built Blackhawks Come on procurement you know it make sense
Procurement and Sense Jon? Umh Chalk and Cheese.🙄
🤣🤣🤣
There was a time when Westland had a licence to build Blackhawks. I wonder if it could be reactivated . . . ?
Also the five mysterious Airbus choppers ( another £35 million wasted ) are going to be “replaced” with five in service Wildcats. Effectively another cut back.
I’m totally with you guys, Polish Blackhawks, nope, it will be the Italian Wastelands show pony, late and massively over budget…. You just know it!
Oh come on!
Both the AW149 and H175M are great helicopters.
Both much more expensive and yet to be modified to the UK’s gold plated standard.
Buy UH-70’s straight off the Polish production line, proven solid reliable performance and available now.
It will never happen however, it will absolutely be shoveling money into a Leonardo shaped hole and get half as many as we need, 5 years late …. That’s the usual UK procurement practice.
No sign of that changing.
Nope black hawk has actually been more expensive than the AW149. AW has come in at some thing between $13-18 million a pop…black hawk comes in at $15-45 million…the AW149 will be built in the county by people who pay tax so a huge percentage of that money will go back into the UK tax base…vis the Blackhawk that will see the money go into the US or Polish tax base.
I don’t see it, first off it’s going to have a number of UK specific mods that will push the unit price through the roof. They will create a bespoke product that will be late and very, very expensive, of that I will happily put a wager on. Built in the UK is stretching it a tad, assembled from Italian supplied parts kits. Westlands has gone to all intents and purposes, it’s a largely unused, wholly Italian owned business, assembling overly complex and fragile Italian helicopters. The last gasp of UK helicopter aviation was Wildcat…. Blackhawk is a proven builders… Read more »
Agreed. MPs in Somerset will go ballistic, never mind what the military might actually want.
Just my cynical opinion,and if the AW wins and is ordered in the right amounts and at a descent price for the units that need it, so be it.
But I’m deeply sceptical, with good reason.
A little light reading (as usual will self delete after 7 days)
https://i.postimg.cc/HnYLdbQW/img334.jpg
Part 2:
https://i.postimg.cc/SsDhL3Mq/img335.jpg
Part 3:
https://i.postimg.cc/wxrK6h5W/img336.jpg
Part4:
https://i.postimg.cc/FKK5rG6B/img337.jpg
Part5:
https://i.postimg.cc/yx4bZTfB/img338.jpg
Part 6:
https://i.postimg.cc/qRjNtmB6/img339.jpg
Thank you Farouk!
👍 good, if rather depressing read
Tax payers across the country not just in Somerset and how we are accountable for the pennies
Contrary to Westland and Sikorski always at Gov teat, Leonardo former Agusta sell helicopters to civilian market in significant numbers.
AW 139 the first in this family of helicopters sold already more than 1200 either in civil and military market.
A variant was ordered by USAF to secure their nuke missile sites replacing UH-1 and beat the Blackhawk in said competition…
The AW-139 (love the Westland PR in the name by the way, about as British as MG), will end up having little to to with the AW-149 as modified for UK service, so not really seeing the point there Alex. Will the 149 be capable of operating from a pitching deck when needed, the Blackhawk can, I’m going to say, about the same capability as Puma looking at its sitting height, i.e mill pond sea states… Will it be grounded pending specialist rework after taking small arms fire, again, going to say yes. So fragile, overly complex and with limited… Read more »
AW139 is smaller and initial helicopter of this family, then came AW149 bigger with AW189 civilian variant. AW-149 are operating from Egypt Mistral class LHD’s btw.
You make accusations but don’t substantiate them. It is just talking. fragile in what? is resistance to fall worse than UH60? complex in what?
AW189 is used in rescue for SAR North Sea to the Falklands for example.
Does not the long distance between wheels in UH60 make it slight more difficult to land in pitching deck?
I feel we could bat this one around forever Alex.. The AW149 is a composite helicopter, as is the Merlin, ( largely anyway), it was found wanting in Afghanistan and kept on the ground a lot, while conventionally built Chinook and Blackhawk went into the fight, over and over again … So yes, it’s more fragile and guess what, an Army Helo just might have to fly into hot LZ’s again and actually get shot at by bad men…. The Blackhawk had a lower center of gravity because it was a joint Army / Navy design, i.e, specifically designed with… Read more »
Linx was the only helicopter that we can say Westland designed with some French participation. Merlin was done with Italians. Sea King, Wessex were all Sikorski designs. Westland design capability was very limited. That is why they were bought by Italians that contrary to Westland started their designs in 1970 for civilian market so have a worldwide presence.
I believe Wildcat was the last UK throw of the helo design dice Alex, an excellent Naval helicopter ( you can’t deny that), unlike the dreadful Sea Lion NFH that everyone seems so keen to ditch asap! However, the stripped out utility Wildcat was forced on the Army, who struggle to really utilise it as it’s neither fish nor foul. It lacks any meaningful transport capacity, no recon or scout sensors, save a nose mounted flir and no budget for weapons. It’s so extremely expensive, it’s likely to only ever have a handful of export orders. In essence, another very… Read more »
Given the age of the Black Hawk – (4 decades?), is it not worth waiting for next iteration that USMil buys and Congress agrees once the current bun fight is over?
Evening David,
The trouble is, the next generation is still 7/8 years from front line service and probably 10/12 years for export.
But yes, why not trade the Blackhawk in for the next gen tilt rotor in the years ahead, when Uncle Sam has worked the kinks out, it will be horrifically expensive though, so probably way over our budget.
Good evening John
A conundrum, agreed.
On the one hand I take the argument about, ahem, …assemble… British for the tax take, I also take the point about surviving in a fire fight and being able to go back again.
I’d probably Airborne and Farouk make the call – they’ll have spades of operational experience – not sure the cost is the issue; Afghanistan showed that TICs need 100% good kit, although, not gold plated.
Totally, Airborne and Farouk would have the last word here….
I would make a point about the Tax kick back aspect, the tax revenue from domestic manufacture might well go back into the government coffers eventually, but does (and this is vital here) not go back into the defence budget.
The general philosophy of UK manufacturing first, at any cost, coupled with a determination to re-invent the wheel, then gold plating said wheel, is why our relitivly healthy defence budget buys so very little….
As I also pointed out to Knight7572.
BH is only 7 years older than Apache but 16 years younger than Chinook. And it’s the same age as Lynx, lets consider that Wildcat (and lets be honest underneath its gladrags there is still a Lynx) is being considered for a midlife upgrade in the early 30’s.
I don’t think the age of the Blackhawk is relevant. they’re all just like Triggers broom.
Not doubting what you stated but how can a helio cost $45M each? Is it gold plated with diamond encrusted switches and alike? That’s serious money!
The last contract the US signed was in mid 2022 at 2.3 billion for 120 cabs. Option for a total up to 255 at 4.4 billion so it works out at something like 19 million per rotor. So the 40m+ is for the pavehawk to UH-60M models, the 112 UH-60M models produced cost 8 billion which is well north of 40million each….but they are specialist cabs not battlefield taxis. One thing to remember is that the 18-19 million per rotor was for the US military who always get a cheaper deal than everyone else..a UK model will need British kit… Read more »
It depends what is the contract. How many years of support, is training included, IP, modifications etc etc.
It is very difficult to compare prices outside the same competition programe.
Wet finger in the air figures which for the AW149 do not take in to account the spend required to produce a truly capable battlefield helicopter. What snaps me continuously when this topic is brought up is the constant references made to tax and UK workforce. As someone who is 27 years into a career in Army Aviation (recently transitioned from Reg to Res) and now in Def procurement, I couldn’t give a Sh*t! What the operators want is quite simply the best platform for the role and that is BH (or a variant of). It works, we know it… Read more »
Bravo! SB1, welcome to the forum.
Thanks Daniele. I’ve been following for quite a few years, now that I’m desk bound I can hopefully get involved more.
Will be Assembled in this country from Parts made in Italy who are not Tax Payer.. Ajax assembled in UK from parts supplied from Spain. Leonardo stripped Yeovilton and only invested when a stiff of a profit. Time to invest the money wisely and the Blackhawks serviced in the Uk
Ridiculous, you know that Poland ordered 32 AW 149? Can also be build in Poland if you dislike so much UK building them…
Oops was not that quote but this
PZL-Świdnik S.A. (Wytwórnia Sprzętu Komunikacyjnego PZL-Świdnik S.A.) is the biggest helicopter manufacturer in Poland. Its main products are PZL W-3 Sokół and PZL SW-4 Puszczyk helicopters. In early 2010 the factory was acquired by AgustaWestland,[1] today Leonardo.
Morning Alex, my reply above mate.
They are Show Ponys in a Battlefield, Look at the Bolt on kit on the Show Ponnies. Proven kit or Overpriced Kits assembled in UK. sounds like Ajax. NH90 another show Pony £ 4 £ operating cost Blackhawks better value. Stuff Leonardo
You do realise the AW149 is actually generally a cheaper per rotor than Blackhawk ?
Yeah the AW149 is the more likely to win as the UH-60 Black Hawk is old
Only 7 years older than Apache but 16 years younger than Chinook. And the same age as Lynx, lets consider that Wildcat (and lets be honest underneath its gladrags there is still a Lynx) is being considered for a midlife upgrade in the early 30’s.
So is the age of the Blackhawk really relevant? Lets be honest most of our platforms are now like Triggers broom.
Yep. I get what Jonathan says but we all know the MoD budget in HMG eyes in NOT to supply good kit in the right amounts to the forces, it is to fund the MIC, big industry, and the nuclear deterrent.
I just want to see effective kit bought, what the Army wants not what the politicians want.
100% agree Daniele….
Yes, I’m waiting to see what happens to what remains of 5 AAC. It has been dismembered, slowly, for a few years now, with its Lynx and Defender Sqns going.
Getting it to operate the Drones maybe a possibility, if, heaven forbid, the RA actually gets more guns and MLRS.
Our armed forces are disappearing in front of our eyes my friend. 5AAC is literally out on a limb. A way will be found to absorb it into something and then it will vanish as so many others have done.
I suspect, even though money is so tight, won’t blame the ” B “, though it is that, due to the huge Political upsets in the World today, the UK will be forced to increase Military spending just to ensure UK interests at home and abroad. The continued reduction in Military spending is already noticeable in every single Service and that CANNOT be justified by any UK Government.
Tragically Keith they don’t have to justify anything. In the latest opinion poll, I think out today, defence didn’t even rate as a matter of concern for the public.
We only shout about defence when it’s too late. We got away with it in the last century but in the modern world if the ships and planes and tanks and people aren’t ready it will be be too late. Every time numbers are cut or programmes are delayed or service entry is slowed it is another nail in our security coffin.
Absolutely Geoff, our political classes are corrupt and utterly self serving, they care not a jot for defence of the realm, something that should be the first priority for any sitting government. It used to really anger me, I thought even our leaders can’t just sit back now, when Ukraine kicked off, turns out they can, if this and the ever deteriorating situation in the Indo Pacific won’t change their minds, then nothing quite frankly will. Today I’m just resigned to our slow effective military disarmament. Let’s just hope the US don’t get sick of wet nursing us, or we… Read more »
It makes me angry too John even though I know I can’t do much if anything about it. I have had the opportunity to file papers for discussion during defence reviews and policy discussions and on occasion I have met ministers. Once or twice I felt points were picked up. At other times I felt as I had just been off on a trip to another planet! There are no votes in defence my friend so it is difficult to believe that anything will change.
‘There are no votes in defence my friend so it is difficult to believe that anything will change’
Nothing will change until that changes. Politicians and political parties have only one priority. Winning elections. They do that by giving the public what the public say they want. If they don’t they lose. If Defence is to go up the priority list the public needs to be convinced that it should.
Your right of course but how to convince the public?
Way over my head. Ben Wallace for one is a very smart guy but even he hasn’t found the answer to that.
He’s a former tic-toc; Airborne would run rings around him, he’s not been straight with Parliament and he’s letting his… ‘Service Record’ cover for appalling time in Defence.
Exhibit 1 M’lud: Ajax
Exhibit 2 Cons manifesto pledge not to cut numbers.
Guilty as charged, hang him.
Morning DM
How are things?I imagine you are still holing out for a UH 60 replacement announcement? Have a good weekend.
Morning mate.
Fine, thanks. I’d like A replacement!
There are 2 chances of that. 1st “**d” 2nd “*ll” !
As always, they will prioritise industry ( the wider MIC ) over all else.
Cyprus is the place RAF helicopters go before retirement
I though it was where everyone in the RAF wanted to go before retirement?
I had to look at that again as the first time I read it, I thought you’d said where “RAF Helicopters go” to die. 😄
I would have thought that the Merlin would have been a better all around replacement for these helicopters. Would they not prove more ‘future and retirement proof’, than the Puma’s?
Merlin OOS Date is 2030. so not that far away, its why Crowsnest was allways a stop gap
I think it is safe to say that will be considerably extended.
Merlin is a 3 engine helicopter very expensive to operate and complex to repair. It is also a 15t helicopter not a 9t one.
I think they’re too big for this role.
Did chuckle when I read advanced defensive systems. No, barely adequate it should state.
Was 84 Sqn disbanded or did it reequip with Pumas? Very little fanfare if it did disband. Then again, same could be said for 100 and V(AC) Sqn
I’ve not read of 84 disbanding.
Nothing has been said about them disbanding. There is however a lot of talk regarding how big a slice of NMH the RAF will actually operate. There are dirty rumours that up to 90% of the fleet could well be Army operated. The remaining 10% loosely fits with the RAF retaining the Cyprus role. Over the last couple of years there has been quite a bit of speculation surrounding whether the RAF will continue to operate a medium lift platform in the SH role post Puma retirement, or focus solely on Chinook. As I said there’s a lot talk and… Read more »
I’ve just read a spotters blog that lists a 33 Sqn SAR Flight, which suggests to me that 84 did disband.
It also states that 230 no longer operates Puma as it’s personnel are involved in NMH program? Seems strange, at this stage a whole Sqns personnel involved in an ac that’s not even chosen yet???Although we both know they’ll go AW and prioritise industry at Westlands overwhat the military probably require and want, BH.
Morning Daniele. My understanding is that 84 have remained as a Sqn but have transitioned to a Puma Flt (essentially one of the Benson Flts from 230 has taken on the 84 Sqn title). I think 230 has become the NMH project/fielding team, my boss is just about to move there on posting. 33 has become a Sqn plus, however the reality is that they’re no better off than they were previously in regards to S platforms. On a slightly connected topic HQ Army raised a concern about 12 months ago in relation to the number of frontline crews… Read more »
Morning, thank you for the clarification, that makes sense.
Just read a “spotters” blog regards Puma cabs at Benson. Lists a 33 Sqn SAR Flight for Akroriri, which to me implies 84 Sqn is gone.