HMS Diamond has destroyed multiple attack drones with her guns and her Sea Viper missiles in the Red Sea.

The Iranian-backed Houthi faction launched unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and missiles targeting international shipping lanes frequented by merchant vessels.

The unified action comprised HMS Diamond, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Gravely (DDG 107), USS Laboon (DDG 58), and USS Mason (DDG 87), resulting in the downing of eighteen UAVs, two anti-ship cruise missiles, and one anti-ship ballistic missile, with air support from F/A-18s embarked on the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.

U.S. Central Command said:

“On Jan. 9, at approximately 9:15 p.m. (Sanaa time), Iranian-backed Houthis launched a complex attack of Iranian designed one-way attack UAVs (OWA UAVs), anti-ship cruise missiles, and an anti-ship ballistic missile from Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen into the Southern Red Sea, towards international shipping lanes where dozens of merchant vessels were transiting.

Eighteen OWA UAVs, two anti-ship cruise missiles, and one anti-ship ballistic missile were shot down by a combined effort of F/A-18s from USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Gravely (DDG 107), USS Laboon (DDG 58), USS Mason (DDG 87), and the United Kingdom’s HMS Diamond (D34). This is the 26th Houthi attack on commercial shipping lanes in the Red Sea since Nov. 19. There were no injuries or damage reported.

On Jan. 3, 14 countries, including the U.S., issued a joint statement stating, “The Houthis will bear the responsibility for the consequences should they continue to threaten lives, the global economy, or the free flow of commerce in the region’s critical waterways.”

This isn’t new for HMS Diamond, the warship had previously downed a Houthi attack drone fired at merchant shopping.

This comes after British owned vessels were attacked with drones launched by Houthi militants in Yemen. Recently, shipping firms Hapag-Lloyd and Maersk announced a suspension of all container shipments through the Red Sea until further notice amid Houthi attacks on commercial vessels.

British warship shoots down attack drone

Avatar photo
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

155 Comments
oldest
newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Ian M.
Ian M.
2 months ago

“This isn’t new for HMS Diamond, the warship had engaged and down a Houthi attack drone fired at merchant shopping.”
Why pick on merchants when they’re shopping? Disgraceful, I say!
😃

Last edited 2 months ago by Ian M.
Ian
Ian
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian M.

Doesn’t all shopping involve merchants?

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian

Even Stephen Merchant? If he is responsible for all shopping I see another Horizon scandal on the way when things go wrong.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago

Well done guys.. Keep the bar stewards hopping.

simon alexander
simon alexander
2 months ago

cost effective for iran to use cheap drones shot down expensively by the west.

Ian
Ian
2 months ago

The cost disparity isn’t really a problem until the rate of consumption of missiles starts to seriously mess with the replacement schedule i.e. – the missiles all have a finite shelf life due to the degradation of propellant and explosive fills, so if they don’t get used they eventually need replacing anyway.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago

It does seem a poor return until you factor in the costs of allowing vital shippping being sunk, damaged, rerouted etc before even considering the human casualties. Cheaper anti drone measures always welcome.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago

No mention of the Languedoc. Is she still in the Red Sea?

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yes, as a French warship she has already hoisted the white surrender flag and sailed to Yemen to be handed over to the Houthis.
Either that or she has promptly fled as the area is turning a little bit too hot.
I’m joking of course.

Andrew Goward
Andrew Goward
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Not funny.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Goward

It is quite funny Andrew……😂

ElyH
ElyH
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

It’s quite funny if you are 10 years old.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  ElyH

And obviously not when you are 100. 🙄

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  ElyH

Well, I find it funny, that’s probably because I am not from a generation that finds everything offensive and triggering and simply doesn’t know how to laugh….

We have been winding up the French and they have been (trying) to wind us up for years in good humour, no one needs to flee to their safe place, or have to have an attack of the vapours.

How terribly dull and grey life must be for the woke of today, don’t take yourself too seriously Ely.

elyh
elyh
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Hey i didn’t say it wasn’t funny I just said it’s funny if you are 10 years old. How old are you John?

Also it’s intresting to note that on an article that doesn’t mention France, or WW2 in any manner the comments still ended up in silly french bashing.

But yeah John I guess this is because my life is grey and dull and you live in the sunlit uplands.

Also I can’t help but notice you keep doing this which makes me think that France lives rent free in your tiny brain.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  elyh

Asking my age??

What sort of site do you think you are on Ely??

Well thank you, but my dance card is quite full😂

I didn’t mean to trigger you, it’s just us simple minded folk do like a laugh on occasion, do try to give us some leeway.

For your information my dear chap, I have many French friends and do business in France on a regular basis, it might shock you to the very core to know we can all have a laugh together and a jolly good bit of banter too.

Do have a lovely evening 👍

julian1
julian1
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

its predictable and disrespectful

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  julian1

Oh do lighten up ….

Something Different
Something Different
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

France won a world war, conquered a good chunk of Europe and won the Hundred Years’ War. Also a gentle reminder that WWII’s Battle of France was also lost by Britain who had to evacuate troops from Dunkirk

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago

What? The Battle of France was over before it had begun; where did you learn history?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

No the French third republic surrendered to Germany after a very short space of time…France had a lot of fight left in it unfortunately the third republic had none and no one was willing to fight for the third republic..it was an example of why one of the key domains of winning a war is people and political will and if you loss that war you loss ( it’s a lesson for the modern world)..The fighting retreat of the BEF and the RN UK rescue at Dunkirk saved 126,000 French soldiers and provided the de Gaulle free French a meaningful… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Bravo……

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago

Whatever it is you’re taking I would stop. I think you’ll find that in the real world France lost the Iberian war and the Napoleonic War, followed by the Franco-German War. The least said about the slaughter ofWW1 the better. But in WW2 how you can say the war in France was lost because we managed to get 200,000 Commonwealth troops out, and many others including over 100,000 Frenchmen, leaving behind a mere 1.3 million French troops who were already surrendering is beyond me. Buy yourself a history book.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago

Lost by Britain!!!

Good grief, that’s just all sorts of wrong.

Go back and read up the actual history of French governmental and military duplicity and how they stabbed the BEF in the back.

The French government could well have lost us the war by their actions, it was only the hard fighting, blood and guts of the sacrificed rear guard elements ( French included) and a very generous helping of luck, that Operation Dynamo was a success….

Had we lost the majority of our ‘fighting Army’ in France, then we might very well have sued for peace.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

While I’m on my high horse, I’ll add one of the stories that alway made my piss boil, the French forces deliberately parking trucks in front of parked RAF Battles and Blenheim’s, forcing the RAF units to set fire to their aircraft and set off for Dunkirk.

Some French officers taking the order to capitulate to include ‘any allied elements attached to them’.

I believe a few British Army units were actually forced to fight their way through French lines to escape the encircling German advance, as the French attempted to make them surrender too.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
2 months ago

It is fair to say that the outdated French tactics and complacency that the Maginot line alone would protect them contributed greatly to that defeat.

They had a bigger army and better tanks than the Germans at the time.

Overall the the unexpected move by the Germans into Belgium and Holland combined with the speed of the breakout from Sedan sealed the allied armies’ fate.

Better to have evacuated the troops rather than let them be captured..

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago

The 51st the Highland Division was hung out to dry and had to surrender at St Valery. Still, the upside is, we did get the finest Highland Reel, ‘The Reel of the 51st’ as direct result of their time in prison camp.
Thought you’d like to know.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago

Errm What ? please enlighten this World as to what you wrote there ?

Dokis
Dokis
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I’d flee, considering the BEF would bring 11 Challengers max and RM swimming ashore, given the current status of things

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I believe so, probably just a case of which vessels were in the most suitable area to shoot the targets down.
The crew of the Languedoc must be gutted that they didn’t get a chance to take a shot. I’ve met both French and German sailors- despite the general bent of their governments sometimes being rather non-collaborative, the rank and file at least want to be involved and doing something worthwhile.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

France may not be as dependent on Gulf gas as the UK. The issue of US leadership seems a problem for them; pity, this is really a conflict with Iran, who are supplying Russia as well as the Houthi, Hamas and Hezbolla. We need western solidarity.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Agreed, solidarity at this point in time -publicly shown so that Putin and others can see it- is very important. Unfortunately, I think that the French hesitation about being under US command is more to do with political optics than practicality or military expediency (or even military pride). Although I agree with you that this is more Iranian stirring than solidarity against Israel, the latter can’t be completely ignored- especially when you have a very loud and disenfranchised Islamic segment to the population like France has. Protecting shipping is one thing, joining and serving under a US-led task force that… Read more »

SteveP
SteveP
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I understand that France has refused to put her in the command structure of Operation Prosperity Guardian and she is operating independently in defence of French vessels only.

Dokis
Dokis
2 months ago
Reply to  SteveP

I don’t think French vessels only, I guess they would act if others were threatened. By the way same for Spanish and Italian vessels

Jim
Jim
2 months ago

This shows how a power like China that was prepping for a major war over Taiwan could deplete western navy missile stocks quite rapidly using proxies at a number of choke points. We really need to send CSG into the region and start attacking the launchers. At this point I don’t think the Houthi’s could do anything more. They are already launching multiple attacks with cruise and ballistic missiles. Their stocks from Iran will also be limited and we now have even more legal justification to intercept further Iranian arms shipments. It’s very important as well that the UK is… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

You mentioned Oman Jim, we don’t need a Carrier there, we have a friendly country at our disposal nextdoor.

UK SF facilities in county too. We could simply deploy assets there, Thypoon, SF, plus SF support and reach out and say hello to the Houthis.

Deploying a QE Class wouldn’t be a wise use of defence funds.

Just how many Warships has China deployed to take part in the operation, as it effects them as much as anyone else…

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

I can’t see Oman letting us use its air bases to attack the Houthis. It would be inviting large scale retaliation on them. Ships docking fir resupply is a very different story to bombers taking off to attack targets.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

My thoughts entirely. A big ask as frustrating as it might be, they will have seen the problems SA had there.

Concerns me too, which is why there is no doubt hesitancy on retaliation, what imagery however contrived no doubt it will be of civilian casualties the moment we strike at the Houthi launch sites. In my view this is all about a mutually beneficial campaign with many tentacles involving Russia, Iran NK and others and with the connivance of China to discredit the West at any opportunity in the eyes of the Global South.

Last edited 2 months ago by Spyinthesky
Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

The western policy seems to be to avoid escalation, although I’m not a fan of warning a potential enemy and then not taking any action against them when they ignore said warning. I think air strikes, continuous reconnaissance over flights to locate and target the launch sites and the Houthis hardware, ideally before launch. I think it is a task a QEC strike group with F35Bs onboard would be deadly effective at, although the presence of a us carrier strike group should be adequate, if it weren’t for the fact they aren’t deployed with F35Bs onboard. Ergo a QEC battleground… Read more »

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Yes and the USN can’t keep a carrier there permanently, The USN is just as stretched as us. Time for the JEF we are suppose to operate with France to step up and help free up the USN.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Hang on a minute…. Can you just take a bit of time actually explaining why the USN is “Just as stretched as us” I for one am proper confused….. ?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Possibly why the mention of guns.

Should be plenty of 30mm ammunition about and you can physically store an awful lot of that in the magazines.

Just as Sea Ceptor could be quickly and easily reloaded in port with a HIAB if needs must. It is neither particularly heavy or ridiculously long.

There is a reason for having good things that are less exquisite and less expensive. Albeit aimed with an exquisite radar and CMS.

nicholas
nicholas
2 months ago

Is there the ability (I doubt it) to resupply Viper or Sea Ceptor at sea?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  nicholas

Viper no.

CEPTOR possibly as it could, in extremis, be manhandled.

In time of war what can. E done is amazing!

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  nicholas

Nope, can’t be done. Requires a dockyard crane to lower the missile into the silo with careful precision and the ship being totally still. One of the downsides of heavy duty VLS silos.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Agree if the Navel campaign in the Black Sea did not cement the argument this does..RN vessels need to be up gunned ( and I Mean with guns) …the fleet needs a good mix of bofors 40mm and 57mm with smart munitions…saturation attack by cheap drones ( air and surface) is not a possible future paradigm it’s now the reality of navel warfare….the T31 is actually a model of what a 21c escort now needs to look like ( contrary to many the RN did know what it was doing)…but it’s time to double down and stick 40mm bofors on… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I agree with changing 30mm -> 40mm on T45.

If budgets allowed a 5” would be great and I think it fits….not 100% sure.

Really you need two 57mm one fore and one aft to give all rounds arcs?

Dahedd
Dahedd
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Agreed. The Bofirs 40mm selected fir the R31 around be rolled out across the fleet. Particularly the carriers. They also need Seaceptor fitted.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Dahedd

Aircraft carriers are for generating air operations. Not to be used like escorts.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Escort Carriers were especially effective in the latter part of WW2, I believe from Memory, the RN ended the War with more Carries than any other Navy….. There is a reason we need an effective Navy to protect Trade.

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Good comment. The 4.5″ has limited uses and the 30mm is a doubtful starter as well, except against sea surface drones. Phalanx?

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago

Does the 30mm have anti air capability?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Against a slow moving drone that isn’t at high altitude – yes it does very much so. Also good against drone boats.

It has longer range than Phalanx so is an additive layer.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago

So why are so many posting that it should be replaced by the 40mm?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

40mm has the potential for 3P (programmable ammunition) as well as significantly longer ranges.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Because its next to useless againt most air threats.

nicholas
nicholas
2 months ago

How close would the ship need to be to use its guns effectively? Is there a suggestion that Diamond put itself between the incoming and the target ship?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  nicholas

That would suggest that 30mm were used…..

Effective range would be a factor of sea state and velocity of drone.

Given the general situation I’ll refer you to Wiki or manufacturer for range data.

For a lot of drones the 30/20mm combo will be more than good enough.

Tim
2 months ago
Reply to  nicholas

Very close. The 30mm range is 5km max so really the drone would have to be on a close fly past well within that to be hit. The 40mm is a little better at 12km with 5km anti air range. The only way we can cover the 500km of Red Sea past Yemen with guns only is with warships escorting merchant ships. It’s a 24 hour trip with an average of one ship every 4 hours so that’s about 12 merchant ships in the area at a time and on average about 100km between them. If most warships were as… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

Perhaps convoys will come back into vogue? (Excellent recent movie, believe entitled “Grayhound,” re WW II NA convoy duty.)

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago

Our 30mm RN guns have no effective anti misile. anti drone capability. They’re one-role duds only fit for shooting at small fast attack boats. Their rate of fire is way too low to combat aircraft or missiles. A waste of a gun station. You want someting closer to 1,000rpm for modern AA/AM work, but we removed decent light AA systems to fit these one role wonders.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Depends which 30mm and what mod state?

The original manually aimed 30mm were not much use – agreed.

Once it was linked to EO more use.

Now they are fully integrated into CMS.

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

The issue is the organ grinder, not the monkey.

The U.S.A. has emboldened Iran since 2021 with misguided de-escalation initiatives. Iran has made its position clear: fulfilment of prophecy.

There are other ways to skin a cat and I hope sense has been knocked into a few heads in the west. Iran should be the focus. Fortunately the best weapon to employ against Iran is Iran itself.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
2 months ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

👍👍🤞

SteveP
SteveP
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

QE brings no capabities to the party that Eisenhower doesn’t already match or better. Plus there’s nothing to bomb. The launchers are shoot and scoot and the Houthi infrastructure has already been flattened after years of bombing by the Saudis

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  SteveP

A very rational point to make. We have to be very careful and will need to be very sure that launchers can indeed be targeted because we know scenes of civilians suffering whatever their veracity will certainly be shown.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  SteveP

I would disagree on that part. The QE can bring the F35, the Eisenhower does not have the F35 embarked. Yes it might be only able to lob Paveway at ground targets. But its ISTAR capabilities seriously outweigh its offensive role for this type of mission. Being able to spot ground targets and perhaps identify those who give the orders. Is a job the F35 can do significantly better than a USN F18. The F35 can also be refuelled by F18 buddy tankers, thereby extending its duration. So if things are needed to take the next step, sending QE with… Read more »

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

I agree, also the F18 on Eisenhower would probably need a SEAD campaign first to operate which would be messy and expensive. Seems like an ideal job for F35.

SteveP
SteveP
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

It’s a good point that you make about ISTAR. I genuinely don’t know whether F35 brings capabilities that the USN doesn’t get through targeting and reconnaissance pods on F18’s, the Growler and the Hawkeye.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  SteveP

Disagree. The Eisenhower doesn’t have F35s onboard. The carrier strike group of Eisenhower is 4.-4.5gen and therefore despite being highly capable could feasibly take casualties in an air campaign Vs Houthis air defences. Not sure the Houthis have anything that can track and target an F35.

SteveP
SteveP
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

The US F18’s aren’t stealthy but unlike the UK F35B they have 150+ mile range stand-off weapons so they can engage targets well outside of the Houthi air defence umbrella. The Growler also Has enhanced EW capabilities and a stand off ARM to supress enemy air defences which the F35B doesn’t. The USN carrier strike wing can perform any mission required at very low risk.

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  SteveP

I’m thinking more about QE relieving Eisenhower. The USN is overstretched and operating in the Indian Ocean is about as far away as you can get from the USA.

More than anything though it’s an important message for the US public and it’s the kind of message that only an aircraft carrier can provide.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

You mean QE replacing 50/60 US fighters with our eight for three months. I don’t think so.

Chris
Chris
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

To bomb pickup trucks on the beach? Yes. The Houthi’s aren’t a standing nation force, more like ISIS when they occupied northern Iraq. The difference is the Houthi’s are getting their gear from the Iranians.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

I do agree, the Uk needs to be seen to be doing something significant…not just because of the situation here but the west needs to be seen to be in lock step and cohesive as a deterrent ( china is watching). Im not sure about the carrier as really we need utter focus on regeneration of the fixed wing carrier/F35 force and that may impact…also we would need to ensure we are sending a proper battle group not just a carrier ( 2 air defence vessels and 2 type 23s).. what we need to have is an SSN down their… Read more »

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I agree, No idea why we moved the SSN that’s normally in the Indian Ocean. If we have a T45 and two T23 on station already though all we need is to get one more T45 to come down with the carrier and or get one of the USN destroyers that’s already there. We could also get one of the Hobarts from Australia. Lots of options and assets that Allie’s can provide which is even better to make it a broad coalition but other than the USA we are the only navy that can send a large deck carrier with… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Sssssh! No-one is meant to know where our s/m are!

Caspian237
Caspian237
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Britain already is doing something significant, it has a Warship present and involved in Operation Protective Guardian. I don’t believe any other US ally can say that. Some European Countries have said the will send warships, some Europeans will only send personnel. If Wikipedia is to be believed, the US has asked Australia to commit a Warship but this has been declined and will instead only send personnel. I understand there needs to be unity shown but, as per usual, we’re doing the most already and now there are calls for us to compensate for the short fall of others… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Caspian237
Michael S.
Michael S.
2 months ago

It is really a pity that the F125 frigates of germany were designed the way they were. Totally lacking what is needed now.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

Have the Germans led the way and done their usual by staying on the reserves bench, going round in circles in the Baltic?

Patrick
Patrick
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

Those frigates can’t even float correctly.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Patrick

Agree hence why they’ve ordered a larger, more fighty frigate from a Dutch yard.
Although labelled frigates the next German surface combatant will be a large destroyer/ cruiser in size.

Paul T
Paul T
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

The F125 are not too badly equipped, they have a good Gun mix plus 42 Missiles in two Ram Launchers.

Michael S.
Michael S.
2 months ago

Besides, Germany has now publicly announced they will no longer block Eurofighter sales to Saudi Arabia.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

Interesting.

I suspect that was a quid pro quo for something else from UK.

We were getting quite annoyed that it was messing up the future works for Wharton.

Jim
Jim
2 months ago

Germany wants in to Tempest that’s what this is about.

It’s amazing how “ rubbish” the UK is at everything apparently yet Japan, Germany Saudi and Italy are all knocking our door down to get on to Tempest.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

They can be a Tier #2 partner with no say or control and whatever workshare we fancy giving them.

I’d absolutely say no to having them as equals as they will pull their usual workshare stunt of promising to order 1000 frames, secure workshare and cut the order.

Every single time on every project.

Geoffi
Geoffi
2 months ago

Spot on

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago

Agree. Tier 2 or 3 partner with nothing but the ability to order aircraft off us. If they order +250 airframes they can have a maintenance and upgrade facility….maybe.

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Give them domestic assembly just make sure we don’t need any parts from them.

Jim
Jim
2 months ago

Not sure they even warrant tier 2. All it takes is one component to be blocked by the German “Green” party and exports are off the table.

If a nation want to act like clowns then they can’t be let into the big boys club.

There is massive scope for us to pick up all Frances future exports too as they will encounter the same issue with the Germans.

It’s also pretty clear that the Germans won’t have any budget for this.

Honestly I would take the Saudis over the Germans any day. Atleast they have money.

Adrian
Adrian
2 months ago

As opposed to UK MOD, type 45 destroyers/ F35 / typhoons

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Interestingly this was stated in not sure what paper a couple months back (ie allow Typhoon in exchange for Tempest entry) which seemed speculative for me but this is at least one part of that report coming to fruition so who knows though not yet convinced but interestingly there has been recent reports of the need expressed by many that UK and Germany need to work much closer on defence. That might be a link.

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Yes I read the Ap same which is why I think they are angling for this. The Japanese won’t let anyone else in under any circumstance though. Three is enough I think.

Ian Skinner
Ian Skinner
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Under no circumstances should the Germans be let anywhere near the Tempest programme, except as paying customers: they played a major role in delays to Typhoon.

Geoffi
Geoffi
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian Skinner

Indeed

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian Skinner

Agree….but will Sunak/Hunt or Starter know or be reminded of the historical facts of Germanic partnership. Doubt it. For some reason our politicians seem to think we should Be subservient to Europe.
Not sure why when we deliver the best results either alone or working alongside firm allies.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim

No. The Germans can stay in partnership with the French and try to deliver that programme. We all know how that will end. Tempest is the only programme in Europe likely to deliver an effective 6th gen Stealth multi-role aircraft. Large orders will follow. Germany can order off us once the programme is finished. The RAF needs to ensure they get enough Tempest. So at least 130-150 aircraft as a minimum. Italy has a stated requirement for a similar number. Japan wants +250. Saudi will likely opt for around 100. So reasonable numbers. If the UK aircraft can get into… Read more »

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Agree, I can’t see the US ever selling anyone NGAD which will be their only 6th Gen aircraft program which means Tempest might end up as the only 6th Gen aircraft available to western nations.

John Clark
John Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

That’s big of them Michael, let’s hope it’s on time to stop the proposed Rafael deal with France, a possible deal that wouldn’t even be an issue if it wasn’t for bloody German intransigence and dithering…

Thank god they aren’t in GCAP!!!

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Agree, just have to hope the Japanese don’t try the same s**t.

Mark P
Mark P
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

Yeah I read this a couple of days ago. If the Saudi’s do end up choosing the Typoon over the Rafael after all, I bet the French will get the right arse like they did over AUKUS deal?

Michael S.
Michael S.
2 months ago
Reply to  Mark P

Today Germany also announced they will sell 150 Iris-T to Saudi Arabia.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Mark P

They can do one. All is fair in business and war.

Mark P
Mark P
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Absolutely, the French wouldn’t worry if the boot was on the other foot.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Mark P

Well the Saudi’s want in to our 6th gen program……?

I don’t see buying Rafael as doing that?

Mark P
Mark P
2 months ago

That’s very true. Yeah so does Germany

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael S.

About time too. That was just an effort to hinder British industry and try to develop a gap between Euro fighter and Tempest to make the Tempest programme harder to deliver.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago

Well done, HMS Diamond. Exactly what the T45 and crew are designed to do.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago

Good job to all involved- although would love to know some more details. If Diamond used her guns to bring some of those down, they must have been close and almost certainly headed straight for the ship; I don’t believe the 4.5″ gun has an AA role, so it would have been either the 30 mm or the Phalanx. I’d be surprised if Diamond would have been sailing so close to a cargo vessel that either of those systems would have the range to knock a target down. Makes the integration of Sea Ceptor onto T45 a good option for… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

Need to find the money and stop fannying around.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Unfortunately, I think we need a fairly fundamental re-work in a number of areas of policy and funding to get us out of the mess we are in- defence and further afield. But that’s not going to be a quick fix…

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago)
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

4.5 mark 8 has AA / anti missile capabilities understand design optimised to get anti missile first shot away quickly rather than overall rate of fire

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago

Oh, OK, I’d read that they don’t- but happy to take correction on that. Either way, effective AA range against a drone isn’t going to be very far- especially in relation to the distances ships normally like to keep between themselves and large cargo vessels. The threat/s killed by gunnery was likely headed for HMS Diamond.

Tim
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

I agree. Either Diamond was the target and guns could have been used, or she was literally next to the target. However I suspect even if that were the case she fired an Aster from further out just to be sure.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

£2M vs the potential loss of your vessel / death of even a single crew member? It’s not really much of a question- you press the red button!

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago)
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

You may be right Joe. Anti Air capability is from BAE design and anti missile capability comment from mk8 wiki ‘……the new weapon emphasised reliability and rapid response to fire first round from shutdown state (particularly for defence against missiles) over a high rate of fire, allowing a switch to a lighter, single barrel mounting and ammunition of a one-piece design.[3]……’ ….but i am also reading AA capability has gone for RN. Targeting systems ? Madness and more penny pinching ? Redundancy across all weapon systems required to support ships deployed globally. ASH = missile > helo > big gun… Read more »

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago

Agreed..!

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago

Agree an airburst 4.5inch shell will deliver a wide cone of death to any incoming round be it a drone, cruise or ballistic missile.
There is little replacement for heavy lead.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

Interesting indeed about the guns, did it specifically state it was Diamond’s guns? I remember years back that it was claimed these ships could hit an object the size of a cricket ball ( why is it always a cricket ball) but I believe it was reported recently on here that the anti air capability of the 4.5” has gone so yes more info need if it were a last ditch downing of indeed what? And what and who brought down the ‘ballistic missile’ as we are told the T-45 has only limited capability to do so presently so I… Read more »

SteveP
SteveP
2 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

You’re right. Someone posted here that our ships no longer carry proximity fused rounds for AA fire from their main gun.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

According to the press release: “using Sea Viper missiles and guns, Diamond destroyed multiple attack drones heading for her and commercial shipping in the area”
So the implication is that she didn’t just use guns, but actually shot something down with them too! Also worth noting, it states attack drones, whereas the wider attack was stated to involve cruise and ballistic missiles. So to confirm your assumption on that, I think the Americans dealt with the ballistic missile. Their Burkes are better set up for handling those.

Erich W
Erich W
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

The first missile attack toward Israel that was intercepted by a US warship used its 5 inch gun. Might have just been close enough to the flight path and cheaper than a SAM.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Erich W

I missed that bit of information! Although the 4.5″ on the T45 isn’t the same as the Burke’s main gun- they don’t have as wide a range of ammunition types etc. available because they’re not used by as many Navies. There seems to be some question as to whether the 4.5″ gun on HMS Diamond would have had the software and ammunition available to carry out AA duties, even if capable.
But the press release specifically says some of the drones were attacking HMS Diamond, so they probably used the guns on those in my guess.

Julian
Julian
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

I agree about this engagement being further validation for the decision to fit Sea Ceptor to T45 but I do worry a bit about capacity. As I understand it the MK41 FFBNW reserved space on T45 was for 16 x MK41 tubes which, given that such a silo could quad-pack a total of 64 Sea Ceptor (even while still carrying the overhead of hot gas venting not needed for Sea Ceptor), makes me think that the T45 reserved space could have hosted more than 24 Sea Ceptor. If these sort of high volume engagements are going to be common, and… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Julian

The mk41 packing of Sea Ceptor is about as tightly packed you can get missiles. Mushroom farm style is distinctly less compact for ease of construction and maintenance, so I think given the space 24 seems about right.

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Julian

It’s a fair point, I hope that reloading spent tubes- if only for Sea Ceptor- can be considered at some point. As far as Mk41 on T45 goes, I think the time for that has passed, but the T83 (whatever that looks like) is going to need a lot of cells.
And another reason why the T31’s gunnery fitout should probably be the standard for escorts going forward. All very well having a 5″ gun, but the 57 mm is probably a better fit for this kind of situation.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

The 4.5 indeed does have an AA Capability…..

Lusty
Lusty
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

It hasn’t had AA capability for some time. The software to enable it has been removed.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Lusty

Easily rectified though… I do recall reading about this capability many years ago.

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
2 months ago

Outstanding!

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 months ago

If the T45s get their Harpoons/NSMs maybe they can then reply in kind. And having 1-2 MK41s added might be very useful, additional CAMM and 2*40mm for the 30mm. Hopefully 2 Wildcats deployed or 1+ UAV like the Jackal. Could be an opportunity here to test out Martlet and Sea Venom. Wonder how good the 4.5″ is in AA role?

Last edited 2 months ago by Quentin D63
Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Well interesting esp in light of what Pete says about AA capabilities of the 4.5” I thought someone on here a few weeks back said that the software required to do so had been removed or am I mis remembering which class of ship, maybe it was the T-23 he was referring to. Anyone have a definitive answer?

Last edited 2 months ago by Spyinthesky
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

The software wasn’t updated when the system was changed from hydraulic to servo.

Software can always be upgraded and installed by flying a tech rep to the ship.

I don’t know if the proximity fuse ammunition was deleted. I can see it being useful for NGS anyway so it might be in the magazines anyway.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago

I am really hoping that the shells are not only point detonated. Proximity fusing allows you to airburst rounds over the ground. Which is essential for clearing trenches and mobile targets. If the RN have removed this capability, then the 4.5″ for NGFS is next to useless, when compared to land based artillery.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

As I said I don’t know.

But I’d be surprised if it had been deleted.

I suspect some new 4.5” rounds might be ordered with improved fuzes. Just a guess mind but it isn’t an impossibility as Washington can make them.

Andrew
Andrew
2 months ago

Sounds like the fleet did a good job. But surely in light of previous statements a red line has been crossed and direct action in Yemen is now necessary and proportionate.

Something Different
Something Different
2 months ago

48 VLS cells now seems to be lacking for the Type 45s, in stead of CAAM do they need more viper cells? They need to be able to intercept ballistic missiles too

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago

It is very likely that the designed positioning and number of CAMM cells has been signed off. So any changes would further delay the upgrade. There are still areas on the ship that could be used for additional CAMM cells. The Sea Viper/Sea Ceptor mix and installation was designed, before we all became aware of the threat of cheap suicide drones. As much as I would like the ship to take into account this emerging threat. I believe getting Sea Ceptor on to the ship, is too important to delay any further. If and it’s a big if, there is… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

In order to exploit the lessons currently being learned from ongoing crises, wonder whether an equivalent T-31 weapons fit ( two 40 mm, one 57 mm) is feasible for T-26 and T-45, both technically and, especially, financially? Certainly should merit serious consideration for both the T-32 and T-83 classes. Possibly even the T-23s which will remain in the fleet for the longest duration? Would suggest DEW R&D also be expedited under the auspices of an AUKUS Pillar 2 initiative. Of course, financial considerations would prove to be paramount. 🤔

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

the mass of these are low end threats so what they need is better guns…the 4.5inch needs to go as it cannot engage air targets…

Tom
Tom
2 months ago

How much is a Sea Viper missile?

John
John
2 months ago

Benny will let loose on Iran soon. As a way to guarantee continued western “interest”. Either that or we get an “Article 5” incident involving a western ship.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  John

This is all happening south of the Tropic of Cancer so it cannot be an article 5 issue…as long as you attack a U.S. or UK ship south of the Tropic of Cancer it does not come under article 5. ( only the very top of the Red Sea and the gulf is north of the Tropic of Cancer).

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago

Listening to Grant Shapps this lunchtime the language has moved on. It is likely we will see military strikes against Houthi targets. I’ve not seen it explicitly stated but I suspect that missiles in this latest swarm actually targeted Diamond so the Houthis have crossed a line.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Well good going on the people there and any all the sailors in those waters be safe. What this re-enforces ( from the conflict in the Red Sea) is that drone warfare has shifted the paradigm of navel conflict in the littoral and enclosed seas…where as once your main issue was a small number of attacks by complex manned platforms or missiles…that could never truly be translated into a massive attritional force ( people alway retreat and shatter from losses and missiles just cost to much and are two complex)….where as now drones are cheap and they never shatter…an enemy… Read more »

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Exactly…. You took the words right out of my mouth…. Drones are a massive threat un-envisaged before recent conflicts in Europe and the Caucuses. T83 needs some special planning.

Jonno
Jonno
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Manpads to the rails seems a certainty as back up.

Armchair Admiral
Armchair Admiral
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Can’t the Martlet pack be fitted to T45 30mm mounts? I know there were issues with the T23 setup, but the T45 is more open. This would give a cheap guided 8km missile straight away without resorting to 40mm replacements. Can easily be reloaded, presumably magazine capacity already on board for the Wildcat. Ditto River B2. Instant upgrade.
Perhaps a few booty teams with hand held launchers…..
AA

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

well in reality the 40mm with is smart fuse rounds would be cheap per round and more able to manage swarms of attack drones, 100 round of ammunition gives you a lot more kills that a 30mm that’s incapable of engaging the target and 3-4? Missiles that need slow manual reload.

the 57/40/40 of the T31 will have the option of 320 smart fuse and potentially guided rounds available immediately to engage a swarm of air or surface targets…that can easily be reloaded any number of times..as well as its missiles…

Tim
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You still need the warship to be the target or next to it for guns to be useful. Unless we get sufficient escorts to escort, or introduce a convoy system we are likely to have merchant ships only under the protection of longer range missiles. These additional escorts don’t have to be big. Six of them at just 2t ton with a 57mm and a phalanx would be a huge contribution.

Armchair Admiral
Armchair Admiral
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

But…the fitting of Martlet would be ‘instant’ (as far as these things go), and reloading is apparently fairly quick. A pannier of 5 was the trial, 5 a side. Not saying its ideal but a relatively quick fix.
River b2 with 57mm and (possibly?) Better radar, 30mm/martlet either side…..
AA

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Very true. It isn’t inconceivable that a Houthi ( or similar group) could over the course of several drone attacks exhaust the inventory of Aster missiles on a T45, causing it to withdraw from the area to reload at a distant port, or find itself dangerously low on missiles and reliant on close in defensive armaments to ward off a ballistic missile or another swarm attack. Either way, it’s not a good outcome.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago

An impressive array of anti missile/drone defence platforms. Begs the question if the UK was being bombarded, how long could our tiny resources sustain a defence? Just 6 T45s, one or two in refit usually, T23 numbers very low & falling further too, with shorter ranged Sea Ceptors, few land based sytstems, record low numbers of combat jets. Yet we still seem to choose less systems as we go forward. Our “leaders” continue to reduce us to a soft target for our enemies. Looking more likely we’ll have to strike Houthi & Iranian facilities. So sad for Yemen having been… Read more »

Lazerbenabba
Lazerbenabba
2 months ago

Instead of being merely reactive it is about time that the US/UK should be proactive and inflict sufficient damage to the Houtis on their home soil to discourage any further actions from them which in effect amounts to a declaration of war by them against the international shippingcommunity.