HMS Diamond, an advanced Type 45 Destroyer, has downed an attack drone heading for merchant shipping in the Red Sea.
This comes after British owned vessels were attacked with drones launched by Houthi militants in Yemen.
Recently, shipping firms Hapag-Lloyd and Maersk announced a suspension of all container shipments through the Red Sea until further notice amid Houthi attacks on commercial vessels.
HMS Diamond has shot down a suspected attack drone targeting merchant shipping in the Red Sea – destroying the target with a Sea Viper missile. pic.twitter.com/x68zX4WtWi
— Rt Hon Grant Shapps (@grantshapps) December 16, 2023
HMS Diamond is the third of the highly capable Type 45 air defence destroyers and one of the most advanced warships in the world.
When she was deployed earlier in the month, the Ministry of Defence said:
“As a powerful demonstration of the UK’s commitment to regional security, the Type 45 Destroyer will bolster the UK’s naval presence in the Gulf and work to deter escalations from malign and hostile actors who seek to disrupt maritime security.
The Type 45 destroyer will conduct operations to ensure freedom of navigation in the region, reassure merchant vessels and ensure the safe flow of trade. She will join HMS Lancaster, which deployed to the region last year, as well as three mine hunters and a Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) support ship. Her deployment follows increasing concerns over maritime security at narrow sea trade routes worldwide, known as chokepoints. The ship is part of the UK’s commitment to supporting security in the region and the global maritime commons.”
American warship shields British ships during missile attack
Earlier in the month, two UK-owned ships, were attacked in the southern Red Sea, triggering a response from the USS Carney, an Arleigh-Burke Class destroyer of the United States Navy.
The first incident unfolded at approximately 9:15 a.m. Sanaa time when the USS Carney, patrolling the Red Sea, detected an anti-ship ballistic missile launched from Houthi-controlled areas in Yemen. The missile targeted the MV Unity Explorer, a Bahamas-flagged, UK-owned bulk carrier. The missile impacted near the vessel, which was manned by crews from two nations. Fortunately, there were no casualties. At noon, the situation escalated when the USS Carney engaged and successfully shot down an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) launched from Houthi-controlled regions. The drone’s specific target was unclear, but its trajectory suggested a potential threat to the Carney. This engagement occurred without any damage to the US vessel or injuries to its crew.
A second attack on the MV Unity Explorer occurred at approximately 12:35 p.m., this time resulting in a direct missile hit. In response, the Carney provided assistance and during the operation, detected and destroyed another inbound UAV. The Unity Explorer reported minor damage from this strike, but again, no crew members were harmed. Later in the afternoon, around 3:30 p.m., another UK-associated vessel, the MV Number 9, a Panamanian flagged, Bermuda and UK-owned bulk carrier, was struck by a missile.
You can read more on those attacks here.
I just love the current “flagged, owned and registered” status of each vessel….. Do the Houthies check Lloyds register before launching each attack ? 😂
The Houthi will be doing exactly what the Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps tell them to do
You can sure bet that they check enough to know the ships aren’t Russian, Chinese and apologist regimes. Western Countries really do need to understand the nature of the threat we are facing from an increasingly united front of those who wish to destroy us. The whole concept that so many Americans cling to that you should ignore Russia to concentrate on China truly ignores the reality of the situation it’s simply unplugging a hole in a bucket to be ready to be ready to try to fill another one that’s not as yet been drilled.
The sad reality is that we now have a geopolitical realignment going on and the west is increasingly not winning in some places.
You can now pretty much divide up the world into:
Western liberal democracies and areas of influence.
1) core western nations, the liberal democracies of which the U.S. is the leading light.this includes all NATO members, the pacific democracies and Mexico etc. although some are drifting away (Turkey and hungary..infact these potentially are a bit of a NATO timebomb TBH)
2) western aligned nations: not so much allies, but friends of convenience..the western aligned Middle Eastern nations and North Africa ( Egypt etc) allies in rest of the levant (Israel and Jordan).
Then you have the authoritarian states..these are all essentially neo fascists states that hide under the communist, religious or even a democratic banner..they have increasingly started to work hand in glove to a level that is not really appreciated.
1) china, Iran, Russia, Syria, North Korea …with Russia satellite nations ( Belarus as well as the five other CSTO nations) as well as irans proxies in the Middle East.
2) the aligned nations to this new power are actually very varied..essentially Russia and china have pretty much control of most of the sub Saharan African nations..and South America is the new frontier..
finally you have what is effectively the only real non aligned power India…and china and Russia have worked very hard to make sure India stays non aligned at worst and an ally to them at best..Russia is the good cop…with all the carrots..china is the threat if that does not work…
This rebalancing of power is all lovely until you realise that china has essentially told everyone it’s going to invade Taiwan in or around 2027 if it cannot get it peacefully. How china will win this future war is not going to toe toe with the USN and then giving up after one campaign as china would probably not win out and out win a short limited campaign ( and it knows this) …but china does think it can win a long lasting global conflict( it thinks it can out suffer the west essentially) ..so all of this geopolitical manipulation is building on chinas ability to build a geostrategic plan to winning a global WW3…and a key part of that will be isolating the west from key supply lines of raw materials as well as building its military infrastructure across the globe ( it’s a really got the Indian occean, east Africa and the Middle East covered…it’s working on west Africa and south Easter Atlantic…as well as The Atlantic and pacific coasts of South America.
You can also see all the manipulation of western political discourse is designed to destabilise western liberal hegemony. The culture wars, conspiracy theories, popularism and radicalisation and acceptance of the far left and right. If left alone most people would be more or less centrist (maybe a little centre right here, of centre left there) but instead we have the party of Reagan be soft on Russia and give a pass to the mob at the Capitol, and the party of Blair and New Labour elect as leader someone who seems to hate the west and everything it stands for (yes exploitive empire was bad but let’s not right off 200 years of democratic progress or the good the nation has done in the world).
You are not far off hitting the bullseye Something Different. The UKGov is struggling to get a hold on who is here and whether they are a threat to the country. That means another weekend at work for many of those at the various agencies the UKGov relies on to know.
Years ago, those countries stirring up the turmoil (Iran) would find their newest and shiniest projects attracting a raid from the USN. However, Biden doesn’t want to fall into that trap. And while China is limiting the actions of its navy to cutting up the ships belonging to other nations it doesn’t want in “its backyard,” he will let it continue until after the US election.
Politically, it’s not been this wild since mad-dog Ghaddifi and Ayatollah Khomeini were doing a double act.
But that didn’t have the capacity to spin out of control and the west still had Cold War level depth of resources.
One thing you say i would like to correct, there is no wish to destroy the west, we just want aternative to the current western based system. It has been proven that we cannot work within your system so we will create our own, how that effects the west is up to you
The only thing that has been proven is that the current gangster regime in Russia cannot work within the western system, hence the invasion of Ukraine since the people there overthrew your puppet government.
If this had the real support of the Russian people you would not have tens of thousands of political prisoners and millions of people living abroad as political refugees.
I had not seen you for months. I thought you had given up trying to find anyone open to your lies here.
Hello Chris, i still read UKDJ, just my time has been more limited due the smo. I enjoy the cliche too much to miss
I hope you are about to meet your maker in the illegal invasion, rape, murder, looting you and your kind have inflicted on a democratic and free sovereign country.
If you are involved in what you call the SMO, we call it illegal war of conquest, then you will hopefully find your way to the receiving end of a Ukrainian bullet.
We don’t want you to work within our system we just want you to stay it of other peoples countrys and stop behaving like your some sort of superpower your at best a regional power with nuclear weapons the Russia thinks it’s ok to murder people on the streets of the uk is crazy we are happy for u to do whatever u want in your country and we are fed up with China taking our money stealing our IP then claiming they invented things they didn’t face facts China and Russia would be in the Stone Age without the west
You do not see the hypocrisy in your statement?
I suspect that essential difference between our systems is not so much politics – capitalism versus communism, as it is catholicism versus orthodoxy; the filioque enabled the enlightenment and multi party democracy in the west whereas orthodoxy has maintained autocratic systems of government, even through the revolution. You also see the effect of orthodoxy in Greece which struggles with democracy versus military dictators and finds it difficult to fit into the EU idea of communautaire. What screws up the west is masonic culture which is a kind of subtle autocracy which strives to undermine catholic social teaching.
Very interesting comments Paul. I suspect Australia has a bit of everything from every where else!
Absolutely 🙂 best of luck with the Queensland floods.
Lots of water has fallen up in the north of Qld. It’s biblical, well maybe half… Luckily where I am here in Sydney water can drain off into the harbour.
Therein lies the problem. The head of this snake needs to be chopped off. But our armed forces are not up to the task. An Op Granby is out of the question.
Seems strange that both Egypt and Saudi are silent on this. This will be costing both of them a fortune. Most Saudi oil cargos embark on Red Sea and Suez Canal fees are the only thing keeping Egypt going.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/maersk-hapag-lloyd-rethink-red-sea-voyages-after-attacks-on-ships-f117b471
Undoubtedly as these types of attacks ramp up more and more shippers will be avoiding the Suez Canal which inturn is going to cost Egypt in lost transit fees. I also read earlier today that the Egyptians took a drone down as well.
Would you care to elaborate?
This is a complex situation; describing (however eloquently) what it is not does not help describe what it is.
👍Certainly!
It’s also going to be a likely transit lane for CSG 2025. Plus Russia meddling in Sudan, China in Djibouti, Houthis in Yemen, it’s going to be quite a “bowling alley” as all the ships pass through.
Eygpt claims to have shot down a drone off the coast of Dahab (Sini peninsula) overnight.
Do hope someone addresses the issue w/in the next 18 months. Might prove to be difficult to explain any unfortunate incident, given that lead time. 🤔😳🤞
Hi Jim,
As much as it costs Egypt and Saudi regards cargo ect, im sure the oil companys will rake it back in utility charges as they did in relation to the effects of the Ukraine War, point been they will get a finger burned regards supply and demand, but the other 3 fingers will be snug as a bug in a rug regards investments in utility companys ect.
Im sure BP & Centrica will have nice profits by 2024-25 end !
Elite’s playing World Monopoly again🤔
This will become commonplace as this technology expands making it possible for any terror group to freely use it. Low price and adaptability ensure not just the high seas but even our high streets could fall victim.
Imagine, AI-controlled drones and the potential dangers multiply.
I guess you haven’t been down any “High Streets” lately mate…. ? They have already mostly been Decimated by decades of Supermarket planning approvals. 🙄
Just 1 in 10? Obliterated might be more apt…
And the remaining outlets selll… Chinese cr@p.
This isn’t all coincidence, Russia and China (though less committed I suspect) are manipulating these events to destabilise the West. Going to be a lot more of it sadly though Russia will need to careful it doesn’t misstep and indirectly affect Chinese interests and economy. We are potentially at a butterfly moment I fear. What worries me is that the US and some others seem incapable of dealing with one crisis at a time certainly the Senate and HofR no doubt to the of those President and beyond who are directly in charge of foreign and military policy. They seem incapable of seeing how what goes on thousands of miles away has a direct effect on their own security. But then many here don’t either.
The thing that concerns me is that between China upping the ante in the South China Sea and Taiwan, Russia in Ukraine, then Gaza and now the Red Sea the west is reacting to everything directly.
Meanwhile other than Ukraine and the Chinese Coast guard those 2 have committed virtually nothing.
The result is the US & NATO are burning through munitions, money, willpower and more importantly sea / flying hours.
Russia and China play Chess and they seem to be looking 4 to 5 moves ahead.
And we are all facing a maintenance cliff edge which all these diversions is just making worse.
Anyone would think this is a Strategy based on death by a thousand cuts !
Like the “chess comment” and the wider proxi-war of the West-China-Russia which goes on everyday. You hope that smart arses will get caught out or do it to themselves, including with overreach. If things don’t go well overseas it might leave them politically weaker back home. For us too, but I think NATO and the West are very well drilled, coordinated and have democratic values worth defending.
Russia was in a desperate situation and persuaded others that not a lot would happen if something else kicked off.
They were right in that.
China is sitting back watching and learning from everyone else’s mistakes.
Putin would like to be seen as the Dark Lord and maybe Xi too but Xi is actually having the opposite effect on China domestically to what he wants in terms of economics and partnerships.
I wouldn’t over egg the pudding – there is a nasty confluence of interests but it is only the bit part players who are marching to someone’s else’s tune.
When I lived in the US, World News was what was happening in Texas or New York State. Daft but true and many would attempt to guess my accent, which would range from Australian, and Canadian to German but never English. Most Americans have enclosed lives that for many are within state lines. Such limited knowledge of geographical issues does help the Government when it comes to overseas military operations, the fewer guys on the ground know the more the brass can commit without too much condescension. I believe this was evident in the early stages of the Vietnam War. This situation can not continue as the World constantly shrinks through advanced technologies and both China and Russia are keenly aware of this fact. America needs its people to be more connected with international issues and geography as this will be vital when protecting the population against expanding international terror.
Spot on
Yes the American governmental system is based too much around politics and whoever is President that year. In UK, at least, there are Civil Servants (pls don’t rant) that provide a measure of continuity
American politicians only hear what they want to hear, there isn’t even the BBC to provide a modicum of balanced commentary
Correct. The USA is a big place that many of its citizens don’t ever need to leave or be concerned about what happens outside on the country.
Hence the obsession with space. They are so convinced of own superiority that the rest of Earth is irrelevant
I love how you say that. Didn’t pearl harbour teach you anything? I’m sure the usa teach the history of pearl harbour in schools. If not then the generations after world war 2 haven’t got any smarter. Its cool usa is so big. But Russia is bigger. Yes you don’t have to leave usa but I’d advise you did. Usa citizens look at things one way because they never leave to see the world a different way. There for the usa are one minded.
That doesn’t make usa right. Explore, learn, educate yourselves.
I’m from the UK, I been to Russia, Saudi and many Eastern countries on holiday. Very different but also very much the same as the west. Very different cultures, different beliefs but similar mindsets.
Majority just wanna live in peace. There shouldn’t be a east vs west. But governments are greedy and the sad thing is we vote them into power. That’s are fault for allowing greedy people to control our countries.
How different are we to putin really.
Russia put the most powerful man into power. We vote the most powerful man into power. Once they have power they seek more. Putin is doing what Hitler did. Gaining lands lost from before world war 2. Completely wrong. But usa and nato what the world to be run a certain way, for them it creates peace but for others it creates suffering.
But greed and power, don’t allow people to find the middle ground.
The vastness of America is the key reason for most living within state lines as it’s usually four hours to anywhere. The average Australian will rarely travel east, west, north or south of the continent due to the distance and costs of travel. This common fact of containment must restrict cross-pollination of social interaction even though TV and the internet is no doubt broadening global awareness.
That’s probably part of the issue
In Britain, a Welshman will meet a Scot at work, and go for a coffee with their Londoner friend. Families and ideas spread and are tested
In the USA, the only way people meet is shouting at them online.
If you had 50 states in your country how much you would know outside your country?
Biggest issue regards AI is when it becomes ‘self aware’ thats when it will all hit the fan, AI Geeks just cannot help themselfs ! They will bring it about due to there lack of common sence ‘ idiot scentists and there quest for greatness will cause it’ not a prospect i wish to see come to fruision🫣 early days or is it ?
Do the frigates have Sea Viper missiles?
No. They use CAMM missiles as part of the Sea Ceptor system.
No, they are using CAMM now. Known as Sea Cepter to the RN.
Yes- the article and twitter release clearly say it was a sea viper missile
HMS Diamond is a Destroyer. JWs question relates to Frigates.
Sea Viper is the larger air warfare system, the missiles are Aster missiles.
BZ, HMS Diamond
Priorities for the British Armed Forces…..
Anything else is a superfluous (nice to have) ambition.
Well, this is the third point, so fair enough. CSG could also be argued as no 3 as well, to prevent China taking control of sea lanes
It used to be that anywhere remotely important on Earth, there’d be one of HM 28-gun frigates pooling around, ready to take on all comers. This should be the aim of the T31 programme
Can we have funding for platforms and crews to man another 15, please?
Refer to comment below for an idea on how this could be achieved
Second this idea. Affordable and I think the US would appreciate it.
As above, in original OPV form a T31 becomes very cheap ( see AH140 website minesweeper version. These could replace rivers and sand own class on one to one basis and provide a reasonable excuse for a massive expansion of capabilities (it’s inflation, guv, promise) with low crew relative to replaced capability. Keep front 57 and rear 40. 12 CAMM in place of front 40 and mission bay in center. Rear payload bay has ramp for towed array lite and boats.
You might be describing T32.
I wish
Would be nice if T32 replaced rivers too, but that might be a bit much to ask for
Ideally, but crew and running costs are the problem. Most would agree that the batch 2 Rivers are a cheap and effective way of providing presence and reassurance and making a diplomatic statement. The money and crew for your idea have to be found from somewhere. The drone mothership role is being transferred from the Bays to Proteus and Stirling Castle. The LPDs will go. I see MRSS as replacing the 2 LRGs. In the short term (perhaps even medium term ) I would convert another Contender Bezant. Echo and Enterprise have gone. I think the RN are doing a good job with the money they have. We have 2 QEC carriers at sea right now….lay up one and you free up nearly 700 crew. I’m sure its more complicated skill wise etc but you get my drift. But my gut feeling is that what Radakin wants is the current fleet – the ability to deploy 2 CSG in an emergency + 5 or 6 Type 32s. And given a bit of a budget increase he could pull it off. The modern frigates need smaller crews. That would give you 5 batch 2 Rivers and 5 or 6 T32 for ‘pooling around’. You could uparm the Rivers a bit. 🙂
The issue with Rivers is that they have the hull and engine maintenance costs of (I would assume, given older tech and same propulsion) a T31. New crew would only be needed to increase capability. T31 engine costs have been kept down, so reducing armament reduces crew drastically. My opinion is that MROSS should be used to patrol Faslane and Baltic, with more contested areas left to T32 AH140 OPV mode.
These would fill the Global Combat Ship role intended for T26 that has been lost now the mission bay is largely for rhibs and minesweeping. The ability to embark a force and raid a coast at will. The Napoleonic Navy analogy of a frigate continues; the ship’s boats could land a gun or two and the marine complement to raid any coastal battery or harbour in the world, a constant threat. Add in the ability to move 500 miles a day and the thread to someone like China is obvious as it relies on a multitude of ports and small naval bases. The T31’s close range armament, maybe minus front 40, would make short work of anything cheaper than a frigate dispatched to fight it off and cause huge fear and damage to shore
An example of this is found in the plot of the Hornblower book (an excellent series) A Ship of the Line by Forester
Is this from IR21 or IR23 Refresh?
Nothing : Land forces deterrence against Russia in Poland and Estonia: CASD or many other things.
Forgot to mention CASD, but which is as much a political as a military tool and shouldn’t come out of the MoD budget.
I think in the NATO context against Russia we can provide far more in bringing to the table ASW capability in the GIUK and North Sea, carrier and amphibious power projection in The Baltic and Eastern Med and enablers like ISTAR assets rather than trying to recreate a mini BAOR.
Looking at the USSR’s/Russia’s ‘Modus Operandi’, their preferred method of creating serious conflict from 1953 (East Germany) to 2022 (Ukraine) has been invasion by large land forces of a neighbouring country – so many examples, I won’t trouble to list them.
Accordingly…NATO has eFP forces in Bulgaria, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland Romania, Slovakia.
Currently we provide for eFP:
a. the framework of the BG in Estonia – two squadrons of Challenger, and some armoured inf in Warriors etc and
b. a lt cav sqn with Jackals in Poland.
As an armoured presence forward of the UK in continental Europe this is hardly a mini-BAOR.
There is seemingly discussion within NATO about increasing the contingents in some of those ‘front line countries’ to a brigade. That would be awkward/embarrassing as we could not roule ‘an armoured brigade’ (-) for an enduring operation. Thus even with expansion of eFP I see no likelihood of creating a mini BAOR on the continent.
Of course our full commitment to land warfighting in Europe is provision of UK-based 3 (UK) Div plus other formations and units as are deemed relevant and necessary, such as perhaps 16 AA Bde and ‘the Apache force’.
It certainly makes sense to have the naval capabilities you describe and ISTAR too, and there has been a focus on improving the fleet for some years (since ‘the Year of the Navy’ in 2017, at least). But if the army is not even on your list of priorities we won’t be very effective in European land warfare, which is far more likely than war at sea (when did we last do that?).
You and I may think that is what they are but the reality is actually far simpler. There are 3 National Security Objectives (NSO 1 to NSO3) and are prioritised 1 to 3.
NSO1 – PROTECT our People
NSO2 – PROJECT our global influence.
NSO3 – PROMOTE our prosperity.
Within those are the Operational Tasks and work top to bottom.
The Number 1 Operational Task is Provide the Nuclear Deterrent (CASD and Nuclear Enterprise).
That overrides everything else which is why so much money is being spent on the renewal and modernisation of the entire Operational, Supply and Maintenance systems / facilities at present.
In effect that means that every 30 years or so the Finance is sucked out of the Defence Budget for about 10 years to renew it. And right now not only are we at the top of the cost curve but also enlarging it to be able to deliver AUKUS in the future.
And we aren’t the only countries who are in this situation the US is pretty well in the same position as us and France is @5 years behind.
The stupid thing is that everyone knows that most of defence equipment renewal works on a 25/30 cycle. So logic world suggest that conventional weapons are replaced in the quiet 15/20 years when CASD isn’t in the build / renewal phase.
But instead 2008 to 2023 we didn’t renew the conventional equipment so now we are in the mire.
Based on what you have said, currently we are ‘up the creek without a paddle’ as Gov suck on the teet of the MOD budget, and make cuts, also county councils are been put in the position of having to find there own means of expediture by making cuts in many area’s.. what will happen if Labour win the next GE ?
Im concerned that Gov is becoming a sinkhole as they spend unwisely, not to mention Labour’s manifesto for cuts to the UK Armed forces🫣.
Gov needs shock therapy i think 😉
Using an Aster missile, with its price tag, to down a drone isn’t reasonable though. RN and all NATO navies need to come up with something creative and hundred times cheaper
Well, how about killing the drone launch crews, their parents, grand parents, children, grandchildren and nearest cousins, brothers and sisters’ families.
Like the Cons sending, ahem, trying to, 100 refugees to Rwanda, this would be an act of self defence deterrence; until the next drone was launched and repeat the process. It’s all they understand.
Bullets are far cheaper than missiles, ask the KGB who got their hostages in the Lebanon back for free.
Perhaps slightly more aggressive than absolutely necessary, but believe that policy would be the on right track! 👍😉 Counter-escalation should be an intuitively obvious concept for Houthis to recognize and understand. 🤔
I am assuming the drones the Houthis are using here are quite heavyweight and not the lighter/simpler types used for land battles (as seen in the Ukraine).
The ships they are aiming to damage are quite sizeable targets.
Issue is the value of the ship, crew and cargo being attacked and proximity to the DD. Viper provides significant
Range and therefore coverage of a large number of vessels. Use of cheaper shorter range missile might require more launch vessels for same area coverage.
B2 Rivers with camm containers and Martlet (or 40/57mm with a
AA ammo) might provide good coverage on flank of a convoy against UAVs as may Wildcat with Martlet on T45, T23 as alternate to using Viper ea time. A T45 / T23 can still provide local area coverage against anti ship missiles.
Might need to start selling/lesding ship based “Terrahawk” systems to the shipping lines. Not sure if that is legally allowed on the high seas or in a war zone. Anyone know about the arming of commercial shipping?
Not forgetting the Houthis are not lobbing Dji drones, but drones the size of your average car and some Ballistic missiles. You need something decent to down them.
We do need to develop something under 3 metres costing less than £50k per unit with sufficient punch to knock down the smaller stuff. Both SAIC and Invariant have prototypes working in Ukraine. The latter has a successful CWS unit that could be deployed on ships as well as part of a city’s regional defence. However, they are more towards 20km away. Smaller and cheaper means less range.
ER Starstreak? Ship launched AMRAAM? Purchase some RAM? There must be quite a few options. The T31s, needed yesterday…
Starstreak would make a lot of sense, cost wise it offers a better solution but will be limited by range. Ship launched AMRAAM would just duplicate Aster 15 /30 and CAAM to some extent for no obvious cost benefit. RAM is surprisingly expensive per Missile so that would not offer any savings. When the Type 31’s enter service these issues will be solved but I think the 40mm CTAS option would be better suited to Anti – Drone work than the Bofors MK4 mount due to a better Round.
Sorry, I meant ASRAAM. Why can’t the UK adapt the RAM type launcher to take Starstreak ER/Marlet /LMM or the ASRAAM? Has a similar footprint as the Phalanx’s. Couple those on the Carriers for anti drone/small vessel particularly. I think the newer SEA Ancilia decoy launcher can also take smaller missiles but might be wrong on this?
ASRAAM is Sea Ceptor in RN use,i think they are too big to put in a RAM Type Box Launcher.
I believe Raytheon put a 9 or 11 ESSM in a Phalanx style mount so I don’t think it would be impossible with the ASRAAM (AIM312?). Starstreak too, had a RAM style launcher in its inception, make it ER and the same radar? Or the UK can build its own. There already the SEA Ancilia 2*6 launcher which maybe could be used for Starstreak /Martlet/LMM.
The RAM/SeaRAM Systems use the RIM-116 Missile,not ESSM,which again would be too big to put in the respective Launching Systems.
We have had this discussion before. RIM-116 was originally based on Sidewinder. Replacing the infrared seeker with a RF receiver. That allows the missile to lock on to an anti-ship missile’s active radar. The latest version now also includes an infrared seeker to target missiles that don’t emit RF.
ASRAAM is slightly shorter than CAMM. This is due to CAMM having a more aerodynamic pointier nose. Plus to house the reaction jets, the tail section is slightly longer. But compared to Sidewinder, ASRAAM/CAMM is an inch and half wider in diameter, but is actually 5 inches shorter. Though it is still longer than RIM-116 by 4 inches.
So in essence ASRAAM being 4 inches longer and but slightly wider. Should allow it to use a RAM style launcher with some modification.
ASRAAM like the other missiles can use lock on after launch. Where the ship’s CMS tells the missile where the target is prior to launch for when it’s still in its tube. However, ASTAAM has a major advantage over the other two missiles. It has a much bigger rocket motor. Thus giving it more range and a much higher terminal speed.
Too short a range unless you are going to operate convoys or escort individual ships. Even CAMM in that scenario is limited. You would simply need too many ships. The Suez Canal averages something like 50-60 ships per day, all of which have to transit the Red Sea.
Ah well, we lasted 70 years without the convoy system, long overdue for it to come back into fashion
Interesting, previously envisioned (supply) convoy system being reinstituted after conflict begins in Atlantic or Indo-Pacific not necessarily pre-conflict w/in Red Sea. 🤔
Or just think about the Italian option. They never gave up on conventional Naval Gunfire for AA or CIWS, so they don’t use Phalanx or RAM. They fit OTTO BREDA 76mm and 127/64mm rapid firing guns with some pretty interesting ammunition options. And they aren’t £2million a pop.
Correct – and with their FREMM and PPA Ships so equipped i would hope they will be sending as many of them to the Red Sea as possible.
Yes. The RNs adopting the 57 & 40mm so maybe some more of those would be good. Even a couple of 40mm on the Carriers to complement the Phalanx’s might be handy.
Another cheaper option would be BAe’s APKWS. This is a semi-active laser homing (SALH) guidance kit modification for the unguided 70mm Hydra rocket. Which gives the rocket a modicum of maneuverability, that allows it to home-on to designated moving targets. It has been tested in both air and surface launches against drones and helicopters. Because drones don’t have radar, laser or optical warning systems. APKWS would be an ideal candidate for use against drones.
APKWS isn’t as maneuverable as Starstreak or CAMM. But against drones it doesn’t need to be. It would be a cheaper alternative to even Martlet. Though has a lesser range and a smaller explosive effect.
Not certain what could be more cost-effective than JDAMs shacked on Houthi launchers. Propose it as a NATO exercise, invite everyone to participate. Message conveyed. 🤔😁
I like your thinking.
Good to know the destroyer wasn’t just ‘fitted for for but not’ with sea viper
But what if the drones were submersible / semi submersible as in style used by Ukrainians around Sevastopol. MOD needs to be thinking that that form of threat will materialise in the near future. How to reasonably counter in places such as choke points?
Use of USV’s or UAVs with sonar?
Should each capital vessel have at least basic bow sonar (type 31/32 !)
Should Widcats finally receive the dipping sonar option originally designed for especially when deployed on vessels without bow sonar
Speccing up the Wildcats would be quite a force multiplier. And has been said here before, surplus Army Wildcats could go to the Navy.
It’s supposed to be happening, if oh so slowly.
Army Wildcats are getting radars, possibly Seasprey 7500E, and a Bowman Data link. Both Army and Navy are getting Link 16 datalinks (finally!). The radars and links were successfully trialled this time last year and, as I recall, the upgrades were scheduled “over the next few years” or some similar formula that indicated no sense of urgency whatsoever.
Also only prototype Sea Venoms are available, and delays to integrating the final version currently leave a target IOC date of 2026.
Hopefully the Admiralty may be reevaluating the rate of progress re multiple peograms. 🤞 Any info re a dipping sonar for Wildcat? 🤔
Especially as they are already integrated on South Korean (as originally designed) versions of Wildcat.
Dipping sonar and sonobuoy launchers are expected to be carried by the smaller 3-ton Proteus rotary UAV, the tech demonstrator for which should be in the air in 2025. Nothing for Wildcat.
Thanks for the update. 👍
Some encouraging news.
I would also give army wildcats martlet. Let them take softer skin targets of opportunity and leave Apache to the armour.
Useful and cheap missile. July 23; successful test of Martlet as an AA missile fired from Wildcat. Downed a Banshee drone. Of course the helo has to be in the air so early warning might be an issue; but nevertheless useful to know. Shame the trial of Martlet on the DS30 mount wasn’t a success. Otherwise a batch 2 River might be a cheap solution?
Like to see the Martlet’s range maybe doubled too if it’s only 8km.
Hard to keep a laser on a target from a vessel at 16km.
Maybe they could have to have some new tech like a multi mode seeker added? There must be tech from other longer range missiles that could be used?
Totally agree with summary and conclusions.
I hope governments listen carefully and act on advice offered by those such as Ben Hodges (US ret. Gen, last Sup. Allied Commander NATO Europe), and Britain’s last and current Defence ministers.
Ukraine must win, even if it means NATO assisting in some way to eject Russian military from all of the country, say, by providing total no fly zone for Russian aviation.
Putin not only danger, that Agricultural minister of Russia is after Ukrains grain. Thus total control of World’s developing countries.
Shooting down cheap drones with very expensive missiles is fine but it cannot continue. The only way to deal with this enemy is to strike them on their own territory. This is a job for a carrier strike group with a full compliment of F35s. Thereby demonstrating our full support for fellow parliamentary democracy, Israel. It would be the prelude to taking the fight directly to Iran.
Come back in 2035, we might just have enough F35’s by then. 😂
Only Mondays to Wednesdays, as the RAF will have them for the rest of the week.
Good post George… my sentiments exactly.
Sadly, we will not do it because too many in government have soft spots for Gaza terrorists and islamic voters. Then there is the antisemitic labour MPs to appease.
Mojave drone and Paveway?
Yes, use them too if we eventually decide to buy a usable number.
I have just read about a worrying escalation – Iran has provided the Houthi Regime with Anti – Ship Ballistic Missiles,which have been fired and a Ship has been hit marking the first such successful use of this class of Weapon.
Attacking commercial vessels is surely illegal and Iran is complicit in this. Maybe a bit return fire might shut the launch sites up a bit? And a bit of self armament to prevent helicopter assaults. You got to think all these goings on are a bit of a bigger distraction, dispersion and disruption plot by Russia-Iran forces and their friends. And the West would have its own interests in play too. Could bugger up CSG 5025 a bit if it blows up further now and into 2024.
The RN needs those T31s nowish plus some more built if you want to disperse them around the Suez, Gulf area and Indian Ocean approaches and into the Pacific.
As you say, a concern. That said I think these missile have only inertial and GPS guidance so the hit on the ship was lucky. They are really only effective against fixed land targets- in Saudi Arabia for example. The Washington post has a good write up of recent missile and drone attacks. They are launched from mobile road launchers. What we need is a Predator drone.
Considering this and other attacks, where is the news of multiple vessels being sent into the region. Realistically this is the only place in the world right now where an escorts could make a difference, sending all active ones there would make sense. Leave the flag flying and policing roles to other vessels.
“sending all active ones there would make sense”. To who ?
“Leave the flag flying and policing duties to other vessels”. Brixham Trawlers ? 😂😂😂
Leave them to the rivers/bay/albion etc they are more than capable of doing them. Flag flying sells papers domestically does nothing for our economy. Whilst shipping through that region is massively important to it and so protecting shipping would directly impact gdp. A few vessels hit and everyone will reroute around it causing more pressure on our already destroyed economy and adding to the cost of living crisis.
I completely disagree that flag flying is domestically aimed.
If Britain wasn’t active in Asia/Pacific, including flag flying, it would have been significantly harder to get membership of the CPTPP. Being there for allies and friends, such as helping with disaster relief in Tonga, allows us to engage with foreign countries in ways that chats with their ambassador in London (if they have one), can’t. We need to be there to understand what is happening, and if we leave that kind of hands-on diplomacy to our enemies, it reduces our ability to counter anti-UK misinformation and our effectiveness on the world stage.
How would it be harder? The membership of the cptpp from the government own calculation adds 0% to the UK. On the flip side it gives all them countries access to the UK market. It had nothing to do with defence.
We are involved all over the world and yet name one trade deal we have got post brexit that is better than we had pre, based on government figures. Best i have seen is 0.01% over 10 years, which is a rounding error.
Even the Conservatives admitted the only reason we joined the cptpp was to make it harder for future governments to rejoin the EU, which was a surprising admission.
As you say membership CPTPP is a bit of a red herring. Politics – a question of sticking 2 fingers up at the EU. The Brexit dust is settling now; Windsor framework etc. If Starmer is elected I’ve no doubt we will have a deal with the EU whose operation is functionally equivalent of the single market. What works is back in fashion.
That said, the presence of the RN OPVs in the Pacific makes an important statement of recognition, friendship and support to new nations like East Timor, as well as nurturing relations with existing friends. A case of a large oaks from small acorns grow I think. China is building their Belt and Road but we have the Royal Navy 😉
The issue is unless your the US and big enough to defend another nation solo, any future relationship just comes down to what each side can get from each other trade wise. Gun boat diplomacy really is a thing of the past.
Really small nations might appreciate it but they are really small and so add noting to the UK.
Saying that, we have opv for such tasks, freeing up escorts for stuff that matters
There are immigrants from East Timor working in the health and care sector. They have Portuguese passports – our oldest ally. Can’t put a price on friendship and respect 🙂
That’s people coming over for jobs. We have people from all over the world in the NHS because it was pre covid considered the gold standard worldwide. Money talks.
Well done to the crew of HMS Diamond, 👍keep the good work up .But please don’t shoot down santa 🎅🤗 🇬🇧
HMS Somerset now has her NSM fitted – get her into the Red Sea ASAP ,she can add to AAW with her Sea Ceptor and can strike at any Launch sites where the Drones are based.
It would be cheaper to JDAM it. Yemen isn’t (well) defended airspace, if they have anything at all.
Agree 👍
Hopefully they’re some NSM reloads being put I n the back shed somewhere. Like to see the T45s kitted out for 4*4 NSM if space, weight allow and if no MK41s fitted.
Hopefully the NSMs will fit where the Harpoon canisters went.
They should easily fit with room to spare. Plus there’s room for more than 24 CAMM. Sorry for my rant. Don’t want wasted opportunities with the T45 upgrades.
No apology necessary; caring is good. Regarding the 24 Ceptor cells, maybe they are leaving room for a DE weapon? Lots of power with the PIP upgrade.
Well BP and other larger shipping companies have come out and said they are suspending shipping transiting the Red Sea..that means effectively the suez rout is now cut.
what this means…we’ll one major insurer did a study and came the the conclusion each day the suez rout is closed could impact annual world trade growth by 0.2% and cost 6-10 billion dollars a day in lost revenue..as it will add two weeks onto the journey time for each and every ship to transit around Africa…..…..…..
Expect significant inflation in the cost of fuel, power and goods from this.
It is also a very very clear warning of how Europe can be separated from key energy supply lines…..china has a very large navel base..smack bang at the base of the Red Sea…just saying.
IT’s a very worrying situation , even with the USN shooting down the drones and RN knocking one out the sky .Companies seem to be taking the other route keeping their vessels out of Arm’s why ,looking after the crews .Cheaper to send them on longer journey for the loss of vessel and cargo no doubt. 🙏 💰💰💰
could the rn use martlet missiles insted of sea viper, ie 30k pound instead of a imillion pouds per shot just asking
Probably yes for small boat piracy attacks and drones. Martlet has been tested against a Banshee drone. But it seems the Houthis have acquired ballistic AShM and have scored a hit with one. To counter those you need Aster or US equivalent. They are especially tricky if they are descending vertically since your radar isn’t generally looking upwards. Got to hit them before they get overhead, which means a long range missile.
So now BP have stopped ships using this route, expect that to be an excuse to screw us at the pumps yet again.
How about we use an aircraft carrier we spent billions on for a role perfectly suited for an aircraft carrier, bombing murderous scum bags who are endangering our shipping back to the stone age.
If that’s not a role for the carriers we might as well not have them and save the expense!
You would think this is a job for a carrier battle group.
Deploy to the Red Sea, hunt down and destroy the drones and their launch sites on the ground.
Jam/ EW against the drone operators.
As the Houthi Islamist terrorists are Iran backed, trained, supplied it is Iran that is escalating the situation and launching a proxy war against free trade.