Today, the Defence Committee announced its intention to hold an evidence session within the next few weeks on recent news reports that Defence Secretary Grant Shapps is considering retiring the assault ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark and the consequences for Royal Marine capabilities.
But Defence Minister James Cartlidge told the House of Commons that “no final decision has been made on these platforms”.
The two assault ships are amphibious Landing Platform Docks, designed to transport the Royal Marines and their equipment ashore. On recent plans, they were expected to remain in service until 2034.
In its 2018 report, ‘Sunset for the Royal Marines’, the Defence Committee’s predecessor Committee warned that the disposal of HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark would be “militarily illiterate” and “totally at odds with strategic reality”.
Vice-Chair’s comment
Vice-Chair of the Defence Committee, John Spellar MP, said:
“The Royal Marines are rightly viewed as a jewel in the defence crown. They play a pivotal role in the UK’s ability to defend its interests abroad. But they cannot do that without the right equipment and transport. The Defence Committee is deeply concerned by reports that the Government is considering retiring HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, which the Royal Marines rely on. We first raised the alarm on the damaging consequences this would have for the Royal Marines back in 2018. Losing these ships would make successful amphibious landings very difficult, and touted alternatives are unlikely to fill the hole Albion and Bulwark would leave. The Defence Committee today announces plans to hold an evidence session to further consider the impact losing these ships would have, and to hold the Government to account on its plans for the Royal Marines’ capabilities. We will announce details of witnesses in due course.”
Well done that Committee. Making it politically expensive for the government to get rid of these much-needed ships is something I never thought MPs would have to resort to. The RAF cannot be an Air Force without planes, nor the Royal Navy without ships. The Royal Marines without their amphibious ability is unconscionable. We need to retain that capability, it needs expanding with a replacement for Ocean. Better still, buy one of the US’s amphib carriers. I have been on the America, it’s far superior to fighting units. I would put my lot up against any force in the world… Read more »
If the issue with the Albions is manpower, how would acquiring a Wasp/America class LPD help? Each class has a crew of over 1000.
Interesting that the first 2 America class were built without well decks with marines transported to shore by Chinooks or Ospreys. ( Later ships will have well decks)
If the future for the RM is smaller scale raiding then helicopter delivery might be sufficient. In which case, we could revert to the abandoned plan to adapt POW to an amphibious role. It is the only option that doesn’t make the manpower problem worse.
A lightly armed 70,000t LPH relatively close inshore unloading RM”s? If you can’t put an LPD in that position because of mass drone attack you are certainly not going to do that with a £3Bn carrier.
It wouldn’t be as close inshore as an over beach landing. Ospreys would increase stand off range but Chinooks could operate from 150 miles out. The lack of self defence systems on the QEs needs to be fixed however we plan to use them.
I understand the logic but an LCU has a range of 1500 nautical miles and LCVP 200. But they are outdated and too slow. We are never going to get the death trap Osprey because it is too expensive. How a Chinook could ever insert personnel on a hostile shore without being heard is beyond me. They fly over regularly and I hear them before I can see them. However, the RN had trials last year on Albion on extending the range of the Merlin, which is a logical idea. What we need are faster and stealthy landing craft to… Read more »
There are various thinking regarding drone attacks. Laser, EM pulse, canons… Some people suggest racing drones used as low cost missiles instead of real missiles. I think with some good systems like that it would be possible to protect efficiently major unîtes. A second reflexion is the cost and manpower of capital ships. Maybe an aircraft carrier catobar is not always required. Some think that since Rafale is able to take off without catapult, we could make more aircraft carrier at 1 Bn €, with helicopter and tanks for a fraction of the cost of America class carrier with a… Read more »
Interesting article in the Economist. Russian EW is knocking spots off anything electronic from missiles, bombs and drones. Not seen reported anywhere else but, the age of the drone may have come and gone; back to tanks then…
+1 on a through deck replacement for Ocean with a well deck if possible. Again two of those along with the QE’s would make a massively flexible force giving us plenty of options. I’m a land lubber but in 2030 the ability to have a Carrier Group of
Queen Elizabeth class
Ocean replacement
2x type 45
1 x type 26
2 x type 31
Sub
Support ships
Pipe dream I know, but enough to make anyone think twice if that’s sitting off your coast.
I find this totally amazing that they are even consider emasculating the marines of their core strengths – amphibious operations First HMS Ocean went to Brazil now the last 2 last assets HMS Bulwark and Albion.
NO THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN
HMS ocean went to Brazil as she was apparently on her last legs, despite having just been refitted to continue in service, then low and behold she is still serving Brazil very nicely to this day.
USS America (the LHA I assume you mean) cost $3.2bn in 2015: about two thirds of HMS Queen Elizabeth. I should hope it’s a lot better than an Ocean replacement at that price. Alas it also requires over 1000 crew and we couldn’t make good use of it. I’d settle for something more like a Mistral, which has a well deck.
May be consider the future of Mistral with a jump start right now. We could very well settle for this idea in the near future, to operate Rafale, Neuron and Aarok. Like a mini America class for 1 Bn to 1,5 Bn€ instead of 3,5 Bn for America class ships… This way UK and France would have a significant force at sea for years to come… Turkey is looking for this as well…
Realisticaly the best you can hope for is we save the 2 LPDs and the 3 Bays, anything else is Pie in the Sky. As for a USN LPH it’s is a superb ship, but if it is an RN ship it has to be British built, that’s the rules. It would also be impossible for the RN to purchase or operate even 1. Price @ £3 billion each which is about the cost of the Queen Elizabeth Carrier. As they require 3 times the crew of an Albion, you would have lay up 2 or 3 Frigates just to… Read more »
Spot on, reality check time…..
I think sadly we all know Bulwark and Albion are toast.
They will be mothballed, with the ball kicked down the road until 2025.
Vital assets, but there it is….
I really, really hope I am wrong.
👍
Comes to something when MPs and the public have to attack the government because of an insane peice of cost cutting, in relation to security. Some say this is all part of a plan to diminish the armed forces so we end up in a EU dominated coalition on defence. I do not trust the EU and the US politicians only slightly more on defence. The point of having Nukes or conventional forces is to deter. The prospect of 405 burly heavily armed elite soldiers landing on your beach with 100s more to follow is all part of that deterance.… Read more »
As much as im really pied off re the PO scandal
The pay-outs that will be awarded to them the money will have to come from somewhere and what’s the easy way as most people don’t care about defence
How long do you think Fujitu will play hardball for?
And all these inquiries that are going on at the mo take for ever as an example Fujitu will fight tooth and nail not to pay out hoping that most of those poor people who were old anyway will pass away
The phrase:
“no final decision has been made on these platforms”.
is of the greatest concern.
Well built platforms with loads of life left in them.
The only fly in the ointment is that the very high voltage electrical systems don’t like sitting idle.
IEP ? Why ?
If IEP isn’t used there is the risk of moisture in controllers and junctions/terminations.
Several kV + moisture = bang.
That was the issue of getting the first Albion rotation out of ER.
I understand the issues with IEP and HV, I just can’t quite understand why they went with IEP in the 1st place.
OK it’s lighter due to losing the direct drive, gearbox etc but it’s an LPH why not just use straight up, good old fashioned Diesel ? Only way I can see to avoid storage issues would be to remove the propellers, replace them with basin trial kit and run them once a week. Didn’t anyone tell them Electric equipment is best used and not just left idle, and that’s without a salty, damp atmosphere.
After the first cycle of ER (which was switch off and exit – which left her in an awful state) they were lean crewed, engines run, air handling and environmental systems active.
Current knives out strategy aside, you knew they are done for when the Marine Raider concept was first penned ( a concept that seems to be centered on actually removing the need for these ships) and the fact they have both now quietly clocked up 20 years of service without any conversation regarding replacement. At the 20 year point, a replacement programme should already be underway, looking at LPD replacement options, with a view to placing orders with industry in the next few years. I think certain elements within Whitehall have been plotting to get rid of them since 2010’s… Read more »
2005 as I recall so 15 years into a 30yr design life?
If my memory is working.
The hulls are really good and well made. Much liked by crew as loads of space and big so handle OK – they can roll a bit in some swells.
There is a ‘plan’ for 6 Bay/Albion/Argus replacements – unfunded….
And a excellent platform to carry maybe 4 M270 muti-launch GMLRS and ATACMS, for stand-off strikes.
I thought MRSS were also supposed to replace these, so yes, there is a replacement for them. The issue is the potential difference in capability between something designed to replace a Dutch OPV (albeit a large one) and an LPD
Cut now, build later. A decade later. But that’s okay because there won’t be a major war in the next ten years. The Treasury have said so, so it must be true. Only, when later comes, MRSS will be billed as a replacement for the Bays; the Albions will be casually ignored as Ocean and Dilligence have been, and the number of MRSS will be figured accordingly.
Agree Albion and Bulwark have had gentle service lives this far and plenty of life left in their hulls. We probably won’t be forced into replacing them until 2040s therefore their replacements could be built around 2033-2034 timeline, not a pressing need. Keep them in service as history has repeatedly demonstrated replacing a lost capability is much harder then just retaining a capability.
We can afford to give Ukraine £2.5 billion in military aid therefore we can afford to keep Albion and Bulwark
I simply don’t get how our gov hasn’t got the message on defence spending. I also don’t get the economic illiteracy of doing nothing. You have the major supermarkets warning that this will feed into food price inflation. The last thing anyone needs is another high dose of inflation and concomitant interest rates. There is a reason most other NATO economies are spending seriously on defence ATM. One large European war One medium Middle East conflict One gorilla action Taiwan….. How many more clear signals do we need? [101 Hint these are all in places that need a thing called… Read more »
I find It hard to understand. What people think in UK? Is it the end?
UK lay down weapons?
I mean…
Difficulties in recrutement in the Royal Navy, early retirement of capital ships, limited funding for ground forces.
This looks like an issue.
I sin’t realy understand. The city is an international centre for trade, what will it become if international trade is not defended?
Is it because Royal marines wants to swarm a foreign country with a Space X rocket?
Because at the same time, we can only remind UK that China is building ships quite fast.
Are we approaching the denouement of the LPD saga? LHDs to replace Ocean anyone?
Well that’s a select committee flexing its Muscles for a change. This will be worth watching and it will be interesting to see who turns up from the Government. If it’s Crapps then this could be better than “Yes Minister”. Can we get tickets ? Only problem is the reason behind this idea has to be either Manning or Fiscal. If it’s Manning then alternatives have to be found (more Frigates swinging at their moorings). If it’s Fiscal then it will mean cuts elsewhere in the MOD budget as there will be no more Money. The Treasury is now in… Read more »
Fabulous timing.
Naval shooting war on now in an ocean near you – frigates decommissioned and now these two big good ships.
Couldn’t make it up.
Sends such a strong message to our opponents.
And our RN service personnel sent to face those opponents time & time again. Would like to see Sunak & Shapps lead from the Front (HMS Diamond’ bow, that is, not the Bench in the Commons). Whilst she’s engaged in deflecting attacks would be best; they could replay the winged scene from Titanic – as a show of commitment.
See BBC reports Sweden’s Defence Chiefs have got into trouble for being first to advise the population to mentally prepare for war. Apparently frightened the children, according to Bris Charity.
It is all down to money because force levels are actually now lower than planned at the last IDR with active escort numbers now much lower than the stated force level. It is simply disingenuous to say we need more manpower for the ships in build because that was always the plan. The current shortfall in manning is entirely predictable given the poor pay, conditions and constant deployments for those that remain. You can’t blame people for not staying in a poor working environment and recruitment takes too long. The stated manning level for the RN was set too low… Read more »
I would say there also a cultural element, the services are not show in the best light by some parts of the media, we have lawyers going after miltary personnel a practice endorse by some parts of the political spectrum in the UK. Work wise you can now work partime and get top ups for rent etc making a RN salary look like a pretty poor option even before your start to ocmpare with the private sector.
The Treasury is now in full pre election bribes mode, That’s pretty much standard, Tory and Labour manifietos will be full of bribes for their chosen groups.
We’re racing closer to a world war yet HMG wants to lose even more vital capability & reduce even further some of our very best troops. When reality hits us hard by events “sorry we crippled our armed forces” won’t cut it.
We’ve not enough warships. HMG solution- reduce ship numbers further.
Madness or treason?
Both.
The last person to be convicted of treason was given a hybrid sentence under the Mental Health Act, so he serves the first part of his term in an asylum until he’s well enough to go to prison.
There were some folks on this site calling for a Military Coup the other day, that is just impossible in this country and IMHO that is treasonous.
However I do actually think it is time that the forces do what they did the last time a Government really took the P out of them. It’s covered by just one simple word.
INVERGORDON
Easier just to put your notice in and walk away. Its not just the government that are the problem, the naval hierarchy don’t exactly go out of their way to make things better for those at the coal face.
I hope you mean they should drink single-grain whiskies, because this isn’t the 1930s; there was still the memory of the Great War back then, yet hundreds of sailors were fired in the aftermath. Not something we can afford. I really can’t imagine the QE refusing to sail.
Most of the youngsters don’t drink. Too health conscious.
Treason, I don,t believe they,re so crazy.
I’d say incompetence leading to treason
This government of ours really ,talk about give up.Like I said on a post earlier what do there expect our RM to do jump of Frigiters and Destroyers and swim to the Beach head.Honestly what a bloody joke . 🙄 🇬🇧
Take away the assault ships is like removing one leg from the marines.
Frankly if manpower is the issue then that is the problem across all three services that needs to be dealt with. At this rate we will only have enough manpower to crew a rowing boat,
Recruitment and retention seem to be at rook bottom. Morale must be affected given the apparent disconnect between government policy and real world threats that are developing in plain sight that anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see.
Given Sunak appears to be preparing for military action this evening these cuts look ridiculous.
It has happened and the US and the U.K. just threw a lit match into a tinder box.
They may very well live to regret this day.
Agreed Michael.
However, I would say the Houthis were seriously pushing their luck holding the global economy to ransom not to mention putting threatening the lives of seafarers. Something was going to give.
Dangerous times.
CR
Agree, you can’t have warships being attacked, having one way attack drones, cruise and ballistic missiles being fired at the RN and not respond.
The Houthis started the conflict, now they will pay the price for provoking the bear.
Lions Mr Bell, provoking the lions 😉
Although ‘extended readiness ‘ or mothballing may be preferable to scrapping or disposal, I would imagine that placing the ships in reserve will cause vital skills in the amphibious aspect of their operations to be lost and difficult to regenerate after a few years. The RN is still relearning fast jet carrier operations some 6 years after QE was launched so the omens aren’t good. If skills are lost, it’s likely the bean counters will look to dispose of the vessels rather than invest in regeneration of manpower and skills.
How the hell did Mr Green…or whatever his name is this week become defence minister…he is thick as mince,,, I’m a lifelong conservative up until the last election but nothing on this god’s given earth would make me vote conservative now…reform for me as Labour is a shower of….. Anyway the conservatives have decimated defence and pay for the boat people instead…Just when you think we can’t get any lower the conservatives plumb new depths by asking the Royal Marines to justify themselves. How about Mr Green justifies the oxygen that is used to sustain him…he certainly is a complete… Read more »
Not sure I’ll be voting for Reform but agree the current 2 main parties are shocking and outdated.
On Reform its interesting I was reading their following isn’t just disaffected Tories but a number of Labour voters to. I think opion polls might be skued toward Labour as the anyone but the Tories party but as the election draws near more will be looking at the options.
I think both major parties need a massive kick up the behind. If you keep voting for the usual three parties you will get the same result. Try reform out I actually think when they release their formal manifesto it will be very good. They are keeping their cards close to their chests to avoid the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems from steeling their ideas. What have you got to loose…red Labour, blue Labour or yellow Labour…at least reform have quality people like Richard Tice and Ben Habib.
‘quality people like Richard Tice and Ben Habib’ I dislike your politics but love your humour.
Why dislike my politics? Of course your free to vote Labour, Lib Dem or Tory but will that change anything in the UK – probably not. Compare Tice and Habib to Cameron and Grant Shapps. Even Rishi Sunak or Keir Starmer…At least Tice and Habib are focussed on the needs of the UK and not on themselves. Cameron, along with the US, removed Gaddafi and caused the current migration issues. Grant Shapps (or Mr Green) is clearly deficient as a defence minister (justify the Marines etc). Rishi Sunak has his green card at the ready to go the US when… Read more »
And they will allow ruZZia to win in Ukraine! And walk into Europe after that! Just like tRUMP loves putler!
You’re not wrong; very difficult to support Labour.
Argentina must be loving this
Never mind Argentina, Russia, China and their buddies in Iran and North Korea must be rubbing their hands in glee…
CR
Argentina has just elected a president who admires Maggie and has said the wars in not an option to recover the Falklands. He’s libertarian and generally they don’t beleive in war.
Argentina can bog off, they are a side show but might try their luck if we keep cutting our armed forces and then what little we have left are somewhat distracted and busy fighting a eastern European, middle eastern and far east conflagration caused by the Chinese-Russia axis of evil.
Given this evenings news that military action involving US and UK forces against the Houthis rebels the idea that we would scrap these ships is frankly nuts… This government is disarming as fast as the threat is increasing. It is leaving the country in a very vulnerable state just as a new geopolitical structure starts to emerge to threaten the Western democracies, namely, the Russia, China, Iran, North Korea axis. What too many people in the West fail to understand is that major global conflict can and has started as a series of smaller regional conflicts. World War 2 saw… Read more »
If it is true that the ships are going it could mean the end of the Future Commando Force as well. We’ll soon have enough equipment in dock to be able to go absolutely nowhere at a moments notice.
Grant Shapps is so thick he was bragging in parliament that his willingness to make cuts shows how great a defence Secretary he is, he seems to think this one is a vote winner. He is discussing cuts the very day he order military action and we are facing the biggest naval challenge in decades.
I think we need to take seriously the fact that such a person, with clearly a low intellect has access to nuclear weapons codes.
No big surprise on using RAF typhoons from Cyprus to contribute to bombing raids against the Hounti rebels . Oman not supporting the operation which makes sense and Typhoons are on a many thousand of miles round trip.
I really hope we start prepping the carrier for deployment.
A not good message for Argentina , they are seeibg no interest in defend overseas territories.
We do have a presence in the Falklands and Argentina’s new president has said he will not resort to war to recover the islands. So for now at least I don’t think their much of the threat.
Pressure from this committee will not do anything, We’re too close to an election, Tories can just tee up cuts for Labour to make or force Labour to spend more. So just tie these ships up for 6 months. The one thing the Tories should do before leaving power, which is inevitable imo, is spend on equipment and make the contracts too expensive to cancel. Would be fairly easy to do especailly if its just adding to running programs like more T26s, T31s, Typhoons, Challengers 3 upgrades, F35s etc. Labour will have to take a big hit with nothing in… Read more »
It all comes down to money, the Defence Committee is toothless and its recommendations are at best “interesting” and “noted” by the government. Exclude extra spending on Dreadnought and more recently AUKUS and the UK’s defence budget has been essentially static for a decade. Allow for new spending on Space, Cyber and Ukraine, and cash spending on the traditional three armed forces is declining by about 4.5% year in real terms when adjusted for inflation. The only reason that the funding crisis hasn’t arrived sooner is that years of disastrous recruitment and retention have kept down personnel costs. Without a… Read more »
So we are not apparently going to get a 2nd batch of type 31s, our 26 additional F35Bs haven’t as yet been ordered, we are down to 3 AWACS whilst having purchased the hardware for 5, have only 9 MPAs, we are losing tranche 1 typhoons despite them being good enough for QRA duties, are retiring 2 frigates (as cost of refurbishment is too high) , it is proposed we no longer need our 2 amphibious landing ships and then probably will lose a good proportion of the Royal marines and reduced our type 26 order down to just 8… Read more »
So in light of the situation with Westminster and Argyll it looks like the T23 Lifex program isn’t going to be a solution to the shortfall in frigate fleet. So can we spend the money better? We could uparm a couple of River 2 but they would not have the capability we really need – to protect and survive in the Red Sea. Echo and Enterprise are sound hulls but their design and propulsion makes them totally unsuitable for conversion into a frigate combatant Bulwark is a sound hull, has Artisan, Phalanx, 20mm CIWS and a flight deck. Could we… Read more »
Agree sea Captor would be wise but HMG don’t wise , has looking like Bulwark and Albion could be sale or chop 🙄 🇬🇧
Do the Royal Navy actually want the ROYAL?
In all the comments, no one has asked the question and it’s a fact the Head She’d cut the ROYAL IDs and gave them to the RN.
I hope the Select Cmtte ask this question.
Going off the Topic a little guys , PM gives 2.5 Billion to the Ukraine in support to keep fighting ,fair enough but let’s face it if no war in Europe he wouldn’t of found that extra money for our forces .🤔
is this problem with recruitment government made have they not cut recruitments of our forces as we know to keep the numbers the same so with albion and bulwark and other ships we now have a real problem etc , but what happens to the royal marines in all this so if they are mothballed until they decide their fate so we can safely say we are not going to be a global force even with new ships coming into service or is it a cut costing way to save money from the over budget of 17 billion pounds by… Read more »