During the Defence Committee’s oral evidence session on Aviation Procurement on 17th May 2023, questions were raised regarding significant aircraft number reductions and medium-lift helicopter procurement.
Member of Parliament for Wrexham, Sarah Atherton, highlighted the significant reductions in aircraft numbers across all domains, as stipulated by the 2021 Defence Command Paper.
“The 2021 Defence Command Paper reduced aircraft numbers across all domains quite significantly,” she said, requesting insight from James Cartlidge, Minister for Defence Procurement, about any potential revisions or compensations for this loss of air capability.
Cartlidge responded by saying, “That is a very good question, and I totally understand that there will be a huge focus on this. You probably know what I am going to say, which is that this is very much a live piece of work that we are doing. I cannot prejudge it, but when the DCP comes out—our target is towards the end of June—those are the sorts of issues that we will have to consider.”
A more contentious topic was the procurement of the medium-lift helicopter, as raised by Atherton. She pointed out the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD’s) alleged acceptance of capability gaps and the retirement of Puma in 2025.
Atherton stated, “We have received evidence that is quite critical of the MoD’s acceptance of capability gaps…The Committee was told earlier that we would have the winning bidder by autumn. This is an emerging capability gap.” She then questioned Cartlidge about the ongoing procurement process and any possible resolution to the emerging capability gap.
Cartlidge acknowledged the significance of Atherton’s query, but refrained from divulging sensitive information due to its commercial confidentiality. He stated, “Again, it is a very important and pertinent question. It is not for me to say what was said to you by DE&S, but it is certainly not a view that they have expressed to me, and obviously we work very closely… It is now a live tender and commercially confidential.”
The Committee session was presided over by Chair Mr Tobias Ellwood and was attended by Sarah Atherton MP, Robert Courts MP, Dave Doogan MP, Richard Drax MP, Mark Francois MP, Kevan Jones MP, Emma Lewell-Buck MP, Gavin Robinson MP, and John Spellar MP.
Among the witnesses were James Cartlidge MP, Minister for Defence Procurement, Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Knighton KCB, Chief of the Air Staff Designate and Vice Admiral Richard Thompson, Director General Air at DE&S.
ADSB shows them flying about. Unless they are training the pilots from the buyer nation.
Pumas are operational in both Cypress and Brunei. They still have the Norway commitment as well.
Sorry, I meant the C-130.
C-130 is still working hard. They are figuring out, how to transition over to A400
Per day, As of today, C-130 is delivering four task
lines and A400M is delivering around nine—it will be 10 by the summer
Basically, A400M is now doing more of the work and gaining momentum
Aye but the problem is the “niche” tasks like air drop .The c130 is proven , the A400 is not as good for those missions. There will be a capability gap if this stupidity isn’t corrected.
As stated by a man who is better informed than the wee experts in here 😆
Sir Richard Knighton
🏴🇬🇧
I think we should brace ourselves for cuts and delays to programs. The MoD has all the money it is going to get and it’s not enough for current plans. In a time of conflict and rising tensions we are going to keep cutting it seems. Utter madness and I’ll be very happy to be proved wrong when the Command Paper is published.
Seems so. My question is where is the money going, I can’t figure it out We as a nation have the highest rate of tax in my lifetime and many years before that, and yet the public sector is failing everywhere, whether it is NHS waiting times, prosecution rates or potholes. Defense keeps getting cut, even though we are at the highest risk as a nation since the end of the cold war. I don’t get it. Ok thanks to anti immigration mantra (aka daily mail /daily express) we have less seasonal /unskilled workers, and less we talk about the… Read more »
Well, there’s £350 billion in Covid spending that needs to be repaid, as most of that was borrowed on the money markets. The latest round of tax rises probably took in an extra £90b a year, so it’s going to be at least another Parliament before that gets paid off, assuming that he politicians can resist grabbing some of it to shovel extra cash at their pet projects.
The trouble is that the last major round of tax rises ALSO took in another £90b in tax take – at least some of that went to defence
I thought about the covid spending but it doesn’t add up as that money has been added to the national debt, which isn’t coming down, which means it’s not coming out of the current tax revenue. For sure there is more interest to pay on the debt though.
Interest on debt makes up half the budget deficit. Elephant in the room is spending on the NHS. A never ending pit, which wastes cash at alarming rates. I know a number of people who work in NHS management roles and it is just horrifying hearing their stories. Accountability is seriously lacking. Defence needs more cash, but then so does every other department. We either pay more tax or accept that there are things that the Government cannot provide. A health service that you don’t pay directly for regardless how much you use or abuse it, is definitely a big… Read more »
There is a serious need to look at the financing mechanism for the NHS. We could still have a system that is unlimited and free at the point of need, but based on a single payer (i.e. national) “insurance” system and private healthcare providers – it seems to work well in other countries
I completely agree, and you’d have to be exceptionally partisan, or deluded, to think we can go on as we are.
Many European nations, and others, have already realised this as you alluded to.
I think that’s the point – it was added to the national debt, when the normal rule is that only capital expenditure should be financed through borrowing, with current account spending being covered via taxation.
There is pressure on the Govenment to pay down borrowing by an equivalent amount. In the FY to Feb this year, HMG borrowed £132b (don’t forget, a lot of that is just refinancing of previous debt, not new) down by £15.5b on the previous 12 months, so by approximately 5%.
That’s how much extra we are adding to the debt not how much the debt itself is. The issue with the figures is they change heavily throughout the year, as tax revenues all come in around certain points in the year. Need to wait for full year data before understanding if amount borrowing is going up or down.
However doesn’t change the question we have increased tax revenue and adding more and more to the debt meaning more available money to spend, where is it going.
The details of revenue raised and spending are readily available. So much public spending is locked in – pensions, other welfare, NHS- that despite the massive total, governments don’t have much room for manoeuvre. Two problems might have been avoided- index linked borrowing was a huge mistake and has pushed debt interest cost to >£90b. The practice of long term PFI type finance kept the lid on current cash outlay but pushed the costs into future years. We have been increasing government debt every year since 2000 and don’t anticipate a balanced budget for several more years. The costs of… Read more »
Details are there but it is insanely hard to understand exactly what is being brought, as there are always so many parties involved. NHS is a classic example, money goes to the NHS but the government requires that it is spent on private services and so you have middle men arranging deals with private firms. Deals are also accounted differently bases on what is being provided and when etc and so you would need to be a forensic accountant to actually work out if money is really being spent and on what.
I think the most impenetrable budget is defence. The merging of acquisition and support costs in the 10 year plan means it is impossible to work out what it costs say to buy an extra F35. The big pressures on govt spending are NHS and welfare Including pensions. The USA is facing similar problems with spiralling costs of Medicare and Medicaid and the increasing unaffordability of entitlements ( social security) . These, rather than the enormous defence budget, are what are causing the debt ceiling crisis. But major changes to defence acquisition don’t necessarily achieve much in the short term,… Read more »
It’s a bloody mess…andwe’re just waiting until the end of June for the Defence Command Paper According to the committee notes – Meanwhile, DE&S are “quite frustrated with the procurement process for the medium-lift helicopter”🤔 DE & S website jargon..What we do… As an arm’s length body of the Ministry of Defence, we negotiate and manage defence contracts on behalf of the UK Armed Forces. From fighter jets to food deliveries, from patrol boats to protective clothing, we deliver effective and innovative kit to our front-line forces, swiftly and safely. Our teams make sure every item is properly sourced, stored… Read more »
I can’t get my head around that DE&S comment unless it is code for frustration with politicians and HM Treasury.
At times it’s like a carry on film 😞
I think RAF is also struggling to retain personel especially pilots so losing small fleets means they have enough to fly whats left, same issues in RN and RFA. Younger generation is not interested in serving (my own kids included 🙁) We (the Gov) need to get them feel proud of the country and make it rewarding and an adventure again. I travelled loads and really enjoyed my 12 years but when i left it was getting more and more paperpushers just worried about how good there secondary stuff looked on annual assessment rather than doing the job and having… Read more »
The never ending cuts, capability gaps, fitted for but not with joke, overrunning projects, delayed training, non stop negativity around our mismanaged military does nothing to attract recruits either. It hardly sells itself as offering an attractive career, more a sentence to sweat blood being constantly demanded to do more with less whilst more cuts reduce further the options for the career to develop the way you would hope.
Anyone who has seriously looked at it as a career option will see a lot that turns them away to greener grass on civvy street.
No one joins the forces to become a millionaire but you do buy into the ‘lifestyle’ that’s sold. When the kids find out they’re being told porkies and quite possibly pushed into a job they didn’t want to do (for short term recruitment levels) then its no wonder they resent it and want to leave. I can only speak for my corner of the forces and the ‘shit rolls downhill’ mantra is alive and kicking, I’ve been out nearly 10 years but still in touch with old oppos some near the foot of that hill. Its not pretty. Part of… Read more »
From an army point of view, the lack of op tours since 2014 is a serious disincentive to recruiting. In recent years, young people have just seen soldiers just with flood relief and administering Covid tests in car parks. I think there is a perception of low pay too.
Since moving to Northallerton, I have noticed that joining the armed forces seems more of a regular thing up here than it did when I lived in London: the presence of Leeming and Catterick probably helps: Even my niece is considering it, which I find amusing as her grandmother is a very active member of the Green party and doesn’t like the military at all.
Malaysia is buying F/A-50 to replace its 100/200 series Hawks. These could be bought cheap, to fill a gap in training & red air.
Would prefer to suffer consequences until Aeralis comes online. Not enough cash to buy both and not buying Aerlalis would destroy the company before it starts. Wouldn’t really give anyone else confidence producing military equipment in the UK. Defence industry is often talked about but these are the kind of sacrifices you have to make so it comes to fruition.
Will we see Aeralis in service this decade? Thought not. Malaysian Hawks are a gap filler. We need that training capability today.
Rolls Royce cannot service and maintain engines for the existing hawk fleet. JCB dont make jet engines
Well, they are flying in Malaysia.
I can’t see the aerialis working out. The costs of getting a new training aircraft designed, tested and into service in the U.K. with a production run of 20 or so aircraft is hugely expensive. Billions I would estimate.
Then add in that it’s really 3+ Different aircraft that will all need to be tested, certified etc.
If more trainers are needed get some more hawks if possible or jump onto another trainer.
Can’t see MOD going for that one John .
They lack the agility to grab bargains when they come up.
Won’t argue with that one 👍
RAF is sending some pilots to train in Italy in their international school with M-346
Nuts! Travesty etc. that it has got to that state. All due to 2010 cuts.
Well it makes sense Italy and UK have got same fighter aircraft since late 1970’s with Tornado.
With Tempest some more decades in front of them.
Good, but even Italy is slow to get M-346 in numbers. If we had any money, I would like to see the RAF get a small number of M-346, so when pilots finish Hawk jet training, they get a few hours multi engine jet, before they go to Typhoon/Tempest. Sadly won’t happen, as there are too many other holes to be filled first. I think I saw M-346 were $21m each. Don’t know how equipped they are for that.
They have 22 M-346 in that school(Leonardo+Italian AF), but have also pilots from Germany, Japan, Canada , Qatar and other countries in the school. The Italian AF have also 18 for their own training but there are countries with more , Israel have 30 M-346 for example.
Singapore AF have 12 M-346 based on South France.
That was really evasive…if it was good news I suspect there would have been more transparency. Losing the C-130, potential gaps in the new medium lift rotor by losing Puma before a new rotor is procured ….that’s not good news at all and quite frankly crap, a new medium lift rotor is essentially an off the shelf purchase as they are all current airframes…they know when Puma is out of service..not buying a replacement in time is pure incompetences or penny pinching now, that will in the end cost more.
According to the committee notes, the C-130 / A400 capability gap will only be about 18 months
It’s not only the C130s being withdrawn it’s also tranche 1 Typhoon and a reduced buy of E7. If I was an optimist I’d say they are looking at reversing one or more of those decisions. In reality the lack of straight talking was probably to deflect questioning and avoid an ar*e chewing.
I reckon now they’ve been told they have to buy 5 wedgetail antenna and 737s are cheap compared to the others it’ll be increase in E7
How? A-400 do not replace C-130. It can’t go to same places.
I have watched some of the defence committee sessions on Youtube before but there is a delay between the actual meeting and the posting. Does anyone know of a platform where you can watch these soon after the meeting (catch up rather than live)?
Parliament.tv
they are public meetings and shown live.
Thanks Rob
Has anyone thought about putting a list together detailing all of the current ‘capability gaps’, how long they have existed and when they will be filled. Excel will go to over 1 million rows so should be possible. In all honesty though this should be a no brainer to shed light on the size of the task and the risks this puts our services in as well as the security of the country.
Just a thought 😉
Obviously not a like for like comparison, but we have a similar defence budget to Russia.
In my humble opinion, for what we pay in there’s nowhere near enough bang for buck.
Getting rid of the perfectly servicable and operational Herky Birds is an act of stupidity.
Vandalism
Main issue, RAF have stopped training new Herc pilots, RAF pilot recruitment all time low and training numbers is poor. Herc’s will need Major overhaul. and that will cost as they have reduced the capability to do that inhouse. its all been geared to drop the Herc. might not be a popular choice but A400s price per mile is a major saving on a Herc on everything. Medium lift should only go to the best option and that is BlackHawk. forget the rest buy the best