A Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank in Estonia is believed to be the first tank to be fully reservist crewed tank to serve on Operations since the Second World War.
According to a news release from the British Army:
“A Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank crew from the Royal Wessex Yeomanry have made regimental history whilst serving in Estonia as part of NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence (eFP). The four soldiers – normally based in the South West of England – are believed to be the first fully formed crew from the British Army’s Armoured Reserve Regiment to serve on Operations since the Second World War.
The last time a reservist tank crew from the regiment’s antecedent units deployed was almost 80 years ago in 1944, when the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry were deployed to Italy and took part in the advance on Rome. The historic milestone was achieved by four Junior Non-Commissioned Officers who deployed with the Royal Tank Regiment Battlegroup on Operation Cabrit.”
Operation Cabrit is the British Army’s contribution to the NATO Enhanced Forward Presence (eFP).
“The eFP is built upon four multinational battlegroups stationed in Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Estonia, with British contributions in Estonia and Poland. The presence of Allied forces assures allies of NATO’s ability and determination to provide collective defence and a united approach to countering aggression.”
The tank crewmen, made up of commander, loader, gunner and driver, have been working alongside the Danish, French, and host nation Estonian forces, you can read more on this from the British Army directly here.
Part of me thinks great to see the Reserves getting proper deployment experience.
Unfortunately, a larger part of me worries that with so few Challenger 2’s in service that if we have to draw on reservists to man them we are seriously going wrong with our manning levels as others with better knowledge than me regularly comment!
The plan all along (from 10 or 20 years ago) was that RAC Reservists train on CR2 to be able to act as individual Battle Casualty Replacements. The news story here is not that we have lads from the Reserve army trained on CR2, but that they have put 4 together to form a whole crew – it is PR!
A really odd PR stunt, if true.
Surely it just highlights the lack of regular army crews.
Steve, No, there is no shortage of regular tank crews – why do you think that? We only have a few tanks out in Estonia – it was just one squadron of 14 at the last count although there may be more there now. Reservists often deploy on exercises or operations alongside Regulars, and not because the Regs are short-staffed. It is to give the Reserve Army field experience. Reservists deployed on all BAOR major exercises, on Gulf War 1 and 2, on Op Herrick (Afghan) etc etc. I did not say the above was a stunt. It is valid… Read more »
You got that right Pete. The shocking state of our armed forces is quite frankly beyond crisis point. Not only has HM Gov forgotten that it’s primary duty is national defence. Our armed forces and veterans community have let them get away with it. None of us escape blame.
This has been a very long time coming. RAC reservists started to train on CR2 many, many years ago – to be BCRs (Battle Casualty Replacements) for Regs should they become casualties on operations. A good milestone.
And why on earth not?
Provided the crew has passed the relevant competence tests and training it is good to go.
Reservists, as the Ukrainians have proved, a really very useful as they have more balance maturity and broader skills particularly if they have already been full timers.
UK needs to take reservists more seriously.
I think we are finally waking up to the value of reservists, especially if you can convince highly skilled individuals to join the Army Reserve when they leave.
More effort should be made and golden handshakes given, to persuade more recent ex regulars to to join the AR.
How will you get this past the politicians?
Bad timing for such wake up. Russia has taken a significant morale hit by sending in conscripts/reserves, highlighting that they are great for peacetime but in war time maybe not as useful, outside safer roles.
Big difference between British Army reservists and Russian conscripts. We have used reservists in countless ops, there were 7000 on TELIC for example. Two thirds of my FP company in Camp Bastion were Reservists including the OC who had far more operational experience than I, a regular, had.
Very much agree, after all works well for nursing and medical profession. There should be more opportunities as well as shared training, we always had/have a number of forces medics in training in our ED and our consultant was a colonel in the reserves. The advanced trauma life support course I attend was a joint effort as well. I even had a forces senior nurse on placement with my team learning management of safety and risk in complex pathways ( which is my thing as well as trauma and emergency stuff). Other good examples is wildcat force, being based 5… Read more »
The Yeomanry have been training on CR2 for 10 or 20 years to provide individuals as BCRs – the ‘news’ element is that for the first time all 4 crew members of one tank are Reserve Army. Reserve Army cover off just about every trade I can think of and some are dominated by Reserve Army – anaesthetists, photo interpreters etc.
Reservist have been training to be BCRs on CR2 for 10 or 20 years – of course they are all fully trained and competent. The news story here is that for the first time 4 Yeomanry lads have been put in the same tank.
Reservists can do just about any trade a Reg can do – and mostly do it well. When I was COS Camp Bastion in 2008/9, the FP Coy was commanded by a TA Major and 2/3 of his men were TA.
Wow 4 people in a working vehicle may be things are not so desperate.
Indeed. Better than not using them at all.
Really Jay? Don’t think you quite grasp what reserve forces are all about in the UK.
Great to see reservists taking on front line roles, I’m sure they’ll make a great job of it. Hopefully, more will follow and put their training to good use whilst gaining some very useful experience for the future.
Reservists have always had front line roles – and deployed on operations. Two thirds of my FP Coy in Camp Basion in 2008/9 was TA.
And before that, late 70s or early 80’s?
There where not a lot of combat tours then, but google Ex. Lionheart where the Army deployed ~30,000 reservists from the UK.
My service started in 1975 and I well recall thousands of TA deploying on the major BAOR exercises (and of course if it went hot, they would be fighting alongside Regs). TA deployed in both World Wars. Can’t think when they might not have been an integral part of the mobilised Orbat. [Just read that 6,900 TA soldiers deployed on Op TELIC, Iraq, 2003]
Mine started in the TA in 82, with plenty of exercises, mostly UK and Germany, but no frontline roles back then as nothing went hot with Russia which is what we primarily trained for.
Nope, conscription simply won’t work for the UK.
We need highly motivated and bright kids to join the armed forces of their own free will.
Equipment is getting increasingly complex and it takes serious time to lean, master and train the necessary skill sets to the deployable level.
A huge percentage of US reservists are former active duty who simply don’t want to do it full time anymore.
It’s not uncommon to find reservists and guard units with more experience than the active duty units.
Technically every Regular becomes a reservist in the UK upon leaving service. But that particular arm of the Armed Forces hasn’t been exercised since the 1980’s and has atrophied.
Don’t forget about the Reserve Army (TA, as was). They have constantly deployed on ops.
You would have to be into WW3 before you called up Individual Reservists, not sure why you say they have not been exercised since the 1980s, please explain.
True. It takes 6 months to get through Combat Infantrymans Course, then further courses are required for mortarman, sniper etc.
The last thing you want in any armed forces are the terrified & unwilling. Our main problem has been a generation of political leadership that’s been seduced by apparent “peace” & Russian money thinking our armed forces that secure us can be relentlessly run down to critical or below. That & treating personell poorly in a race to the bottom.
What a load of crap, Russian money has had nothing to do with the reduction in the numbers of forces personnel or equipment.
How do you propose a country with a population of almost 70 million imposes conscription? Mean ignoring the no doubt ‘human rights’ issues of such a scheme its logistically impossible.
Again drawing on the South African experience,conscription was initially based on a ballot system-basically if your name was pulled out of the hat you were in!
I wouldn’t write off the youth. While every generation has its spare tools, these are the first generation to embrace tech from a very early age. Conscription is a terrible idea. The military is not a role for everyone. Part time is a great way to get younger generation into it. You get a good job and worked into that job is a military role. Duel skills or whatever you want to call it. If you can make as much military kit easy to use and matches the same layout as you use in your job then you can do… Read more »
Jonathan is your man to answer this question, not me, he is far more erudite.
Conscription won’t work in the UK now.
Works in Israel, Lithuania (spot the difference with the UK), but, the UK is too woke.
A properly mandated reserve with basic things like enhanced, enforceable employment rights with an ethos inculcated into the Regs, that AR are absolutely reliable and part of the structure would bring on AR recruitment in leaps and bounds.
DB, I think it depends on the nature of the threat and the consequent need. Worked extremely well in South Africa in the 70 and 80’s. A world class combat force mainly of conscripts and reservists.
Jay R, I’m not sure why the Forces should shoulder this burden, while some ‘beefed up’ Duke of Embra award scheme might work. It would probably have to be opened up to ‘non military’ stuff like the NHS etc too. I’m still sceptical that the discipline side of it might be tricky to work in our indulged corner of the world. I’m not against the idea though.
The way the UK is at the moment the youth are more or less expected to attend University, however, with apprenticeship routes becoming more available there is hope again for the more practical and less academic in society, both of which have a place in the education system. With regard to military training there are of course the cadet forces which are an excellent way for young people to experience the values of the military without any obligation to serve, many however go on to a career in the armed services. University cadet/Air squadrons are also available, it’s all a… Read more »
Yeah it’s much better to make it optional. Giving young people that are going down the wrong path or seem stuck or lost in society could benefit a lot if they are willing. Don’t know where it can be proposed to youngsters. Certainly not the job centre. I recently went with someone and they were asked what they want to do. After saying they don’t want to do catering, an office non customer focused role would be great and it has to be family friendly hours for the young kids they have and have some prospects of achieving a better… Read more »
The Army doesn’t want it. It’s a professional combat force, not a school for dealing with people who don’t want to be there.
OMG I have an Advert for WW2 German uniforms from military harbour below the comments.
Wehrmacht anyone🙈
Heer
It’s been a while since I’ve seen such a quality ‘stache
It can be fun to use the term ‘weekend warriors’ – but these guys are stepping up and standing a post. And as we’ve seen over the last couple of decades (and I know before that) that the training given to the reserves across all of the forces is extremely good, and they are a very motivated group. As with all deployments this will be a learning exercise too, seeing if there are any areas that can be improved in the training and integration etc. Armed forces have two main components, the equipment and those who use it – I… Read more »
Deployments for the Reserve Army – and before that the TA – are nothing new. We deployed such folk on Gulf War 1 and 2 and must have had some TA anaesthetists and surgeons in the Falklands conflict. In Afghan in 2008/9, 2/3 of my FP Coy was TA, as was the OC himself (who had far more operational experience than I (a regular officer) had. Not sure there is much more of a learning exercise required. This really is not a new thing. In my first exercises in BAOR in the mid-70s we always had TA come out from… Read more »
We need to make job shopping for Reserves to be much more easy, create a Linked In system for Reserves and abandon the fantasy of fully formed Reserve Battalions forming part of the Regular Army’s ORBATs.
Comments like this do remind me of a conversation my dad told me about: “You feckless kids wouldn’t have lasted 20 minutes in what we had to go through in my day.” The speaker was my great uncle Earnest speaking to my grandfather in about 1965. My grandfather had served at sea throughout WWII, but he was still a feckless kid in the eyes of the previous generation – that tickles me a bit, he was just a kind old man to me, neither feckless nor fearless warrior; to be fair my great uncle had served aboard HMS Inflexible and… Read more »
Opinions seem to be in favor of greatly increasing the size of soldiers. If then, How can I increase the number of soldiers? If abolish programs like Ajax, or the project to introduce new AS90 self-propelled guns, will be able to bring back the reservists. I think we can raise the number of soldiers to 100,000 just by considering that kind of option, like Bayractar, instead of expensive equipment like the Apache. If shift the military’s weight around drones that specialize in communications, surveillance and reconnaissance instead of new expensive armored vehicles, tanks, attack helicopters, and self-propelled artillery, I think a light and fast… Read more »
If you abolish Ajax, the army would have to stagger on with 50-year-old Scimitars or have no recce vehicles at all. Same story if you scrapo the AS90 (we are woefully short of arty as it is).
Back in the early 90s we had 120,000 soldiers and all the kit required. It should not be impossible to do that again.
Believe me, drones can’t replace Ajax, AS90, other AFVs (Boxer?) and Apache. I think you are talking nonsense!
https://youtu.be/vNa9l15Gs50
CAS drone , 24hour support ground available
https://youtu.be/QwIknv0eMQA
a precision strike with a drone eye.
The lesson of the Ukrainian war is that don’t need all the new tank self-propelled Apache, and if create an environment where friendly drones can fly, can destroy enemy tanks and armored vehicles with more dominant equipment with old weapons and equipment.
Extremely speaking, all you need is a drone. That’s all.
How does a drone hold ground?
A drone can be shot down or jammed.
Every weapon has a counter, drones do not make armour obsolete.
https://theconversation.com/robots-are-creating-images-and-telling-jokes-5-things-to-know-about-foundation-models-and-the-next-generation-of-ai-181150
The latest AI is already close to humans.
Even if drones are isolated from communication, will not fall helplessly in the future.
People are now essential for controlling the ground, but tanks and armored vehicle-based drones are also emerging.
People don’t have to bleed a lot in the future.
I think that great Defence expert, Dominic Cummings, thought all you needed were drones and cyber warfare tools rather than classic weapons. But I think you are in a minority to believe that. Should our navy and air force also trade in ships, submarines and fighter aircraft for drones too?
https://www.fedscoop.com/mysterious-robotic-ships-headed-to-ukraine/
Extremely speaking, that will be the case in the future, and attempts are already being made to unmanned submarines, suspicious ships, and fleet auxiliary ships.
U.S. Unmanned Vessels to Be Sent to Ukraine Sea of Ukraine
Sorry Jay R, as pretty much everyone else has said, conscription just wouldn’t work in the UK. It can be hard enough with guys who are professional volunteers sometimes so how do you get the unwilling to ‘play the game’. It wouldn’t take long before everyone’s ‘mental health’ was in peril. I’m not just being a reactionary ‘anti woke’ type to say that, its been happening for years, guys don’t want to go play anymore and they’re off to sickbay with stress and/or depression. To be fair the Russian military are a great example of why we SHOULDN’T have conscripts,… Read more »
I am all for reservists. In our NPB Unit we were composed mainly of ex Professional Rangers, conservation specialists and Security force, ex and serving.Obviously Regulars will have much more in depth experience and updated training, but volunteers have a good record worldwide
Geoff, NPB?
Sorry Graham. Natal Parks Board. The old organisation that used to run Game reserves and other parks in Natal in the days before 1994. Made famous by Gary’s brother Ian Player with Operation Rhino. Was run by Brits or Brit colonials along quasi military lines for many years- Colonel Jack Vincent, John Geddes Page and last of the line Doctor George Hughes. Have a lovely shot of Zulu Game Guards in full Khaki gear marching with shouldered 303’s-will send link. Cheers
Reservists yes. Conscription. Big no! Unfortunately very little of the AR comes with its own combat equipment beyond uniforms, IW, Land Rovers, Trucks, and a sprinkling of Jackal, CVRT, and Light Gun, MLRS. I’m unsure if the reserve AD regiment has its own Starstreak and I’m sure the RWY does not have its own tanks. Where the reserve really makes its mark is in the RLC, RE, RS, RAMC areas, with many bringing their expertise with their day job with them. Indeed, one of our “BCT” has CSS entirely composed of reservists, making it nigh on undeployable other than all… Read more »
Yes, the Reserves need to go out of the Reg. Orbat. 19th Light Brigade was a good start, but not enough IMO. Combine that with structuring the the Regular Reserve, and holding old kit to activate Regular Reserve units are no brainers, and comparatively cheap.
Combine that with a job shopping system for units to more easily “shop” for reservists looking for deployments and reservists to search for operational postings.
When I was in the Reserves ‘RE it’s hard to believe years later the numbers we had were not far off the size of our Regs now .There were TA centres all over the city’s and town’s think we had about 4 or 5 infantry units of the Green Howard’s ,even paras within 5 miles from were I live .Plus the rest REAM, signals ,MPs MEDs and of course the ‘RE .Talk about a second Army cool days 😎
We had 60,000 TA before the last 2 or 3 defence reviews. I was a REME Reg and I think we had at least 4 or 5 TA REME Battalions (as well as TA at First Line, of course).
Ukraine has 800,000 reservists!
Good Lord 800,000 ,sorry about me putting REAM did mean REME on my post it’s been along time showing my age 👴
Daniele, Back in the day, the TA would have a full complement of equipment (vehs, wpns, radios, crew served weapons) – you suggest that the AR has much less kit at its peacetime locs today – that could be due to WFM which is applied to Reg and AR units. If so, then they would draw the balance from depot stock (as Regs would) if they were deploying as formed bodies. RWY does not have its own tanks, I am virtually sure of that. RWY has been training CR2 crewmen for 10 or 20 years – to act as BCRs… Read more »
Yes Graham, 4 BCT has no regular CSS. And the army still plan to disband 3 RLC I believe, which could have been their CS Reg, or gone to DSBCT as they have no CSS either. Agree on the RWY, I’ve known of their IR crew requirement for years and never had any incling they had their own armour. Yes, as they’re garrisoned at Armour Centre I think they’ll use Bovington assets. They were known as an “Armour Replacement Regiment” way back I recall? Whatever, the AR don’t deploy as entire battalion/ Regiment sized formations in peacetime like the US… Read more »
Is it April 1st? We got rid of conscription in the early 60s as it no longer was useful, required or wanted by the army or the nation. If you brought it back a good chunk of Regs would be lost in training the ungrateful. Plus we do not have the barracks or training areas to cope with a massive expansion of the army. It would also cost a lot of money.
Because Russia’s had wonderful results using conscripts! 🤔
A bit off topic. I think we’re all getting tired of all the Russian propaganda and their deluded self-grandising crap. Don’t they get it – that what they’ve started and are perpetuating?! If they don’t get the F out Ukraine then they will need to be kicked out and with full Western support. May the 🇺🇦 people have continued strength to fight off the Russian monster!
Sorry, I hope we can get an update on what’s happening shortly. Thanks.
Although this is great to see our Reserves on CH2 .The main problem here is that our Army is now far to small.It’s time the Government have a rethink in the numbers game has more cuts are due 🤔
TA RAC were training on CR2 in 2012 if not before – https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ta-soldiers-undertake-tank-training
Not because the regular army was small in 2012, but because they would deploy forward as BCRs to replace Regs who became casualties.
UK orders more Boxer armoured vehicles
14 APRIL 2022
“The 100 additional vehicles will be infantry carriers, command-and-control (C2) vehicles, and ambulances, which will be used for the British Army‘s new armoured brigade combat teams (BCTs), as planned by the British Army‘s 2021 Defence Command Paper.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/land-forces/latest/uk-orders-more-boxer-armoured-vehicles
“Rheinmetall is prepared to supply up to 50 Leopard 1 tanks to Ukraine, the company’s CEO Armin Papperger told the Handelsblatt newspaper on 12 April. The German financial daily quoted Papperger as saying that the first Leopard 1 could be delivered in six weeks if the Bundestag, Germany’s parliament, gives its approval.
Deliveries would be made via Rheinmetall Italia and could be completed in up to three months, according to Papperger, who said Ukrainian crews could be trained on the tanks within a few days.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/land-forces/latest/ukraine-conflict-rheinmetall-prepared-to-supply-leopard-1s-to-kyiv
What variant of leopard are they being offered? I think they all have the 105mm main gun. The U.K. should give the challenger tanks in storage if Ukraine are after main battle tanks. Would be wary of them going the same way as the Russian tanks tho. Ukraine would need the full support for the tanks. IFV, anti air screen etc etc for the tanks to be used effectively. We know Russia has captured some NLAW and other anti tank weapons.
Leopard 1 A5 105mm I believe and the offer of 35 Marder infantry fighting vehicles by the end of 2022
Has Germany not got leopard 2 tanks sitting in storage? End of 2022 isn’t great. They need stuff now. Ukraine could cease to exist by then. The British army should be saying to boris we will give them some kit we have you give replacements. Boris looks good in both announcements. Also weapons need to be produced urgently to send and replace what the army needs. Urgency is of upmost importance. If Ukraine has to push Russia back over the border it’s going to take a lot of kit. Massive numbers of ammo and lots of precision stuff. That’s a… Read more »
Agreed, they could use some of these instead.
LEOPARD 2A7V VERBESSERT MAIN BATTLE TANK ~ PART 1
27 Feb 2022
https://www.joint-forces.com/features/51586-leopard-2a7v-verbessert-main-battle-tank-part-1
LEOPARD 2A7V MAIN BATTLE TANK ~ PART 2
28 Feb 2022
https://www.joint-forces.com/features/51591-leopard-2a7v-main-battle-tank-part-2
Exactly. The Ukrainians should not be expected to fight with old worn out kit from 50 years ago if there’s better available. Speed is key if ukraine is to stand a chance of forcing Russia back. Russia can still have its victory by having water restored to Crimea and can have the 2021 Donbas area held onto to become “independent”. Peace talks aren’t even happening so very unlikely
The UK will never go back to conscription, it became a bone of contention during the Suez crises and paid the price in the 1957 defense review. At present we have two reserves – Regular Reserve and Army Reserve (Volunteers), a possible option would be to merge both reserves together and bring the AR up to 60,000 reservists, by doing so it will build a more stable structure that will fit in a more usable reserve that has Regular Army and Civilian skills that can become more seamless in the future. The Regular Reserve have – Category A (mandatory), with… Read more »
Barry, no advantage in merging these very different types of Reservits and the large combined number might fool politicians that all are equally useful and perhaps that the regular army can be cut further. Hammond wanted to cut the Regs to 50,000 a few years back. I left the Regs at 53 after 34 years service and was automatically a regular reservist, but quite a different beast to a lad in his 20s in a formed unit of the Army Reserve. He would deploy on big exercises or operation and I would have deployed if WW3 had started and it… Read more »
I don’t know how to wire a 3 pin plug. I’ve never needed that skill, service doesn’t change that deficit. XD
I don’t recall saying I went to University. I do recall pointing out that my military service didn’t teach me to wire a plug.
Well done to these lads 👍🏻 as far as I’m concerned a good news story. Giving reservists operational experience is a good thing. No idea why the doom and gloom platoon from Londoninium spout so much negative shite about there not being enough regular tank crew yah de yah blah blah . Numbers are only a small part of the whole picture as is being so aptly demonstrated in Ukraine.Its intelligence gathering and comms mixed with logistics that makes the difference not numbers of tanks ,planes , artillery etc etc as the Ukrainians have proven. All wrapped up in a… Read more »
Hi, I have passed this onto George to sort out as the content of your posts suggest an issue. Please e-mail [email protected] if you wish to discuss this further.
Hello Lisa,
On a separate note, I am no longer receiving email notifications when people reply to my posts, can you look into this for me?
Many thanks.
I have the same problem.
Morning Lisa.
And I too am not getting any notifications.
Help?
Thanks.
I know lots of very hard working you drs and nurses as well as health assistances who work their arses off for the betterment of our nation. I was supporting one Young lady on the phone during covid who was a healthcare assistant, 18 years old, see was the only staff member left standing without covid in a 18 bed care home for learning disabilities, with covid ripping through the adults with learning disabilities, she sleep in that home 5 nights in a row, not leaving her place of work…… So I actually have a lot of respect for the… Read more »
Who would want to be manning a position knowing the person next to them does not want to be there? You need to trust the person next to you not view them with suspicion.
A lot of recruiting issues would disappear if the days of fitted for but not with and capability holidays were consigned to history. The forces are viewed as a farce by many and it does nothing to encourage many to join.
What a waste of money, I heard Boris say tank battles were a thing of the past…
Waste of money training RWxY to crew CR2?? This started in 2012 or earlier. The rationale is to enable the Yeomanry to supply BCRs forward to replace regs (CR2 crewmen) who become casualties in combat. Don’t think it costs that much.
I see the US military have just selected Sig to be their new rifle/LMG in 6.8×51.
Another non story. To have 4 reservists in a tank crew is a routine event and has been since the Wessex yeomanry regiment was assigned the MBT reinforcement role in 1999. Are you seriously claiming that for 23 years an entire regiment have never deployed a massive crew of 4 people together in their regiments primary vehicle on an exercise or operational deployment. We had thousands of reservists with us in op Telic. this included the Wessex yeomanry who provided challenger tank crews. Please think through your statements before publication to check it is logical and credible. This is the… Read more »