In the ‘News Snapshots’ podcast by The OSINT Bunker, hosts Jon, Austin, and George discussed the missile attacks in the Red Sea and the role played by HMS Diamond.
George said, “Speaking of HMS Diamond, I think I’d say the Red Sea has recently become a sort of proving ground for one of the world’s most advanced defence warships. It’s almost comical to think about targeting HMS Diamond, of all ships, with a missile. It’s like deciding to punch Muhammad Ali and expecting to land a decent hit.”
HMS Diamond is doing exactly what she was designed to do, detect and down threats, but does she carry enough missiles to operate in the Red Sea for a sustained period of time? Listen to the discussion in the inaugural ‘News Snapshots’ podcast by @TheOsintBunker, releasing today. pic.twitter.com/nJvFTCoPBO
— UK Defence Journal (@UKDefJournal) January 14, 2024
George further elaborated on the ship’s role and capabilities, “HMS Diamond is doing exactly what she was designed to do: detect and down missiles. She’s absolutely nailing her job.” However, he also pointed out a significant limitation, “Here’s the catch with that. I don’t think Diamond is carrying enough missiles to hang out in an extended fight. That could be a problem if the Houthis keep up a sustained attack.” This concern underscores the need for more extensive armaments to ensure HMS Diamond can maintain its defensive role over longer periods.
Addressing the planned upgrades, George mentioned, “In March 2021, the Integrated Review promised to beef up the missile count onboard. They’re adding a new 24-missile Sea Ceptor silo right in front of the existing 48-missile Sylver VLS silo. That boosts the total missile count from 48 to 72 – a 50% increase. But it’s not so much of a sprint to do this. It’s 2032 when all of the ships will have this done.”
Overall, the ‘News Snapshots’ podcast aims to provide a 15-20 minute perspective on current events; we hope you enjoy it! You can listen here.
You can listen to the podcast in full by clicking here.
this is what the rfa is for so the statement is rather idiotic and uneducated
Missiles can’t be reloaded at sea. US have the same issue and are trying to fix it.
I learnt this only the other day. I am astonished. This limitation is serious. I would call it a design flaw.
I would agree, pathetic that this can’t be done and we have no backup solilutions
Calling it pathetic is bit much, given that its a serious technical and safety limitation and not just an issue of money.
Attempting to crane several metres of sensors, explosives, and fuel into a tiny hole without damaging either the weapon or the launch tube is something no one has worked out how to do with an acceptable risk margin. Ultimately its preferable to withdraw and rearm instead of rendering the main armament inoperable.
So you need to get a long item into a tube on a rolling ship… it is done reasonably regularly with torpedoes and even shells, and I acknowledge shells are a lot shorter but in principle you make a guide and pretty much that is that. Obviously you still have the problem of getting the missile to the guide but if the guide itself can move from horizontal to vertical then loading a horizontal guide can be done with cranes and perhaps ‘flexible fingers’ to act to stop the swinging as it approaches the guide. Getting it onboard would likely… Read more »
No the problem is trying to swing 7 meter long tube from 1 moving platform to a separate moving platform which is not an issue a sub has 200 feet down loading torpedo’s in to its tubes. The US did fit cranes to early AB & Tico’s to reloaded but it didn’t/couldn’t be made to work so they removed. If we had suitable RFA’s to carry hundreds of missiles you might be able to in a safe port when tied alongside which would be best option, as flying enough missiles to Bahrain for Diamond to go in to rearm (once… Read more »
Yes, I do seem to recollect reading / seeing video of torpedoes being loaded onto subs in the ocean during ww2 but I guess I will check up on that I dont expect it to be ‘simple’ but I am quite sure it must be possible
Older systems could so a type 22s sea wolf system had 88 missiles ( 12 in launchers and 76 in magazines) you could also RAS over new missiles..the problem being that you had to do a slow manual reload after you had fired 12 missiles….the type T23 could fire all its 32 missiles one after the other…but that’s it.
It seems that whilst the missiles have got better, the logistics of reload and resupply have gone backwards.
Indeed, there are a number of issues.. longer range missiles have aways been an issue as a longe range missile has always been 4-4 meters long and around 500kgs in weight. With the shorter range missiles they have got a lot larger missile wise .which I think is one of the issues..as well as the vertical launch system’s essentially taking what was magazine space and the pure process of having to suspend a large missile in a vertical position above a cell and then lowering it in..with a moving deck. if you look at the short range options sea cat… Read more »
Thanks Jonathan. Our country has got some clever engineers. I hope some are working on Gen 2 VLS to design systems with easier reloads.
Was it in the spec?
Fair point. I couldn’t possibly know, so I should not have suggested a ‘design flaw’.
Assuming it was not in the Staff Requirement to be able to replen at sea, then it was the Requirement document (that leads to the Tech Spec then to the Contract and then to the Design work) that was flawed.
Burkes carry many more missiles than T45s especially if you count quad packed ESSMs. I could never work out why such a large destroyer with such expensive sensors, designed to simultaneously engage so many threats got such a small missile arnament.
You cant engage more targets than you have missiles so a lot of the engagement stuff is surplus and a waste of effort
The sheer irony in this comment is off the charts. The RFA can’t replenish Sea Viper missiles, perhaps it’s you that’s idiotic and uneducated? Maybe you’d be better off acting like an adult?
Tee hee
👍
The rfa could bring then to a nearby friendly port, which there are plenty in the region. The bit im unsure on is what level of logistics are required to reload, does it need a military facility or could it be done on a civilian port? Practically how long would a reload take, if possible? Not ideal but they could set up a rotation system with ally ships to allow for the reloads or send another destroyer. Although I think they are holding back ships in case the decision to send a carrier is made politically which is being hinted… Read more »
Thought at least one issue with sending a carrier is the Fort Victoria?
Guess it depends on length of deployment, if its just a photo op for the defence minister maybe resupply at sea isn’t needed or could be borrowed from the US.
Oman said it does Not agree with the strikes on the Houthis! I am not sure does Oman agree with the air defence aspect of the mission? If not that would rule out the nearest port in region.
the americans are in djibouti even closer
There are commercial ports all over the area, I’m sure one could be paid to allow it or atleast turn a blind eye to it.
Is it not possible to develop a mechanism where the sea viper can be reloaded at sea?
The USN are back working on the issue…
They are in fact Aster missiles, Aster 15 & Aster 30. It’s a bit misleading as previous RN missiles were Sea Cat, Sea Slug, Sea Dart, Sea Wolf & the new Sea Ceptre. So misleading that the media call them Sea Viper. Sea Viper is the whole missile system including radar. As for reloading at Sea, the US Navy have tried it for many years, but it’s far too slow & dangerous, even in calm Sea conditions. The missile containers are too big & heavy. The receiving Arleigh Burke class destroyer is constantly moving up & down with the waves,… Read more »
need a crane and forklift
Sorry Steve seems as if I’ve just wrote the same idea as yours before I noticed your comment. It’s a good idea 💡
Hello George could you please tell me why you keep taking some of my posts off ? Not like arguing with any one or been rude language to anyone so what’s the problem .Have been on to Lisa and explained to her the problem over the last couple of months ,and the young lady has help out .But think it’s time we sort this problem out there’s a a good man. ?
Hi Andrew,
We get hundreds of comments per day, no one is actively looking at what you’re posting to take it off again. More so, I have no involvement with comment moderation. The problem is that Lisa is off on maternity leave and caring for a newborn baby is time consuming. Your comments will be approved soon.
Best,
George
Okay thanks George ,hope Lisa and baby are doing well .👍 🇬🇧
👍Certainly!
they rfa can dedrop into bjibouti seeing as its a friendly port idiot
go George!! Why people have to be insulting I dont understand, we are all here to learn.
The Press on-board need a story too show the limits of our depleted armed forces just be grateful that Brian Hanrahan isn’t around anymore or the Houthies would now know how many missiles are on board and how much 30mm ammo is left as well
Hiding details like this just ends up compounding into the overall issue the armed forces have with supplies. If things were more transparent there is no way they would let ships go into hot zones not fully armed, which sooner or later will result in loss of life.
There is a saying which rings true ” loose Lips sink Ships” that’s why I mentioned that BBC reporter
I’m not convinced, so many issues and deaths over the years can be linked back to the whole cloud of secrecy over the military. Yes it increases the risk of the enemy knowing something but generally I expect their spy network would have that info anyway and so it’s just the public that are kept in the blind and can’t push their MPs to fix the issues and that gives them zero accountantability when things go wrong because they can pretend they weren’t informed.
The BBC pressed for embedded Reporters to embark with the task force in 82 the Navy didn’t want them but had too put up with them .Apparently whilst we were down south there was updates via Whitehall on TV telling the public enough information good or bad being 8000 miles away we just got on with the job that we had trained and got paid for
If you don’t have that you have what is going on in Russia or isreal, media only being able to report on what they are told by official channels, which clearly aren’t aligned with the truth of what is going on.
With a media bias which seems to be left of center leaning at this present time I doubt if Any reports would cater too all viewers There’d always be a portion that agree and a portion shouting cover up .
Not sure where your getting left wing media, most of ours are very much right wing, being owned by media rich offshore individuals, super keen on removing worker rights under the guise of immigration. Combined with a bbc that is scared to challange the government, so covers for them which ever is in power.
To be fair most of the war reporters belong to association press and just report facts, its then the media that publish them that adds the slant.
I Just don’t think that whatever side of the fence you sit there’s always going too be those who believe that there’s a cover up or pandering and you can never please everybody I’d rather have the adage of ” Keep mum ” rather than cause upset
I get that people have problem with what Brian Hanrahan said but at the end of the day the RN transmitted that report to admiralty as it was the BBCs only link back to the UK that didn’t rely on postal. Also part of the agreement to have press aboard was admiralties sole discretion on publication they allowed it. Sandy Woodward even admitted someone dropped the ball in Whitehall regarding the news reports on bomb fuses and the reporters didn’t deserve the stick they got, they were used as scapegoats. Brian Stood no advantage in getting himself blown up, at… Read more »
Nearly 42yrs but should the BBC worldservice of aired that comment about fuse timing of British made munitions that the Argentines were using or kept mum and not said a word it’s history I know but now everyone is a frontline reporter and Social media is the new world service its no longer loose Lips its now A Loose Finger
Yes, I’d like to think the “I counted them all out and I counted them all back” headline grabber didn’t apply in this case!!!😆
What RFA ship would you use to ship more missiles? A tanker? The RFA has no ammunition ship ready to sail to a friendly port to meet diamond there.
Most likely option would be flying the missiles to a port as reload has to be done there.
Has no thought been given to the needs of any sustained campaign? This is relatively a mere skirmish compared to what we could face after all.
None. Something which is obvious in every direction you look when it comes to uk defence.
The RFA has been reduced greatly over the past years. Sustained naval operations are difficult especially if no friendly ports are near by.
The U.K. has the ability to fight with what it has on hand. Resupply and rotation on a large scale/multiple missions have been lost.
Look at the PAY! Why would you dedicate years of your life to the RFA for less than the wage of a corner shop!?
You begin to understand the usefulness of drones to deplete a warship’s missile defences at a relatively low cost compared to the missiles themselves.
djibouti is close ties with usa and i would expect the saudis would allow use of a dock now they allwoed to buy some typhoons
Oman on the peninsula the UAE, and Bahrain ,as France didn’t want too partake in the strike against the Houthis will they allow us too use Djibouti?
Yeah Bahrain could easily handle the job.
Is that a serious question for Scrapps and Sunak? Election year and they have a war, smell the coffee man
A QEC will sail amidst great fanfare and a GE will be called. Cue much waving of flags.
How did you guess?
Yeah but which flags ?
I read an old OpEd from the US Army War College a while back. It estimated that all European stocks of “modern” reloads, ie ASM, SSM etc, would be exhausted in less than two weeks of high intensity fighting. Same for air, land and sea. Thats the trouble with high tech expensive stuff I guess. And lack of mass. The Russians are proving mass, as a theory and in practice, still matters.
What is needed is the ability to manufacture at the rate of a high intensity conflict, along with stockpiles that will tide you over while you ramp up manufacturing. How far we are away from this capacity, I have no idea. Let’s hope someone in MOD does.
Problems in “shelf life”. And keeping the MIC busy in times of peace is another factor. I remember well the jamboree of firing off nearly out of date ordnance. I really believe the arguments for more mass in more basic forms holds true now. Recently saw wartime German 7.92 fired off at my club, not a dud. Ike warned us in 1950. We ignored it. Where shiny toys for boys are concerned? Industry will always have its way.
I would suppose the nearest ‘safe and secure’ port, a C17 and whatever dedicated equipment is needed to reload the tubes.
A 160 t mobile crane and some MHE forklifts/ Palletlifters.
Cheers Gunbuster, I would guess Oman is the closest rearming point…
Where ever there is a jetty with a crane and the missiles.
And security when I was in Oman you weren’t allowed ashore after 6pm at the Navy port but when we alongside in Muscat the curfew was 10pm very security conscious having a neighbour like Yemen GB
They just allowed everyone out here before Christmas. Prior to that US and UK were locked down for security. Its still very tight but with some relief they are not going stir crazy.
Its actually been nice downtown…no drunken servicemen…just drunken ex servicemen like me!
If my memory serves me ish Winston Churchill bar as it had gone 22.oo hr we all booked into the hilton our 1st LT didn’t and got a night in the Cells for breaking Curfew
Couldn’t they be loaded into a container to sent using pretty much any ship including the bays or rolos
Exactly.
I’d be very surprised if we hadn’t foward positioned some reloads already via A400M or C17.
Diamond is part of a coalition so the other ships will cover while she peels off reloads and restocks. She must be getting fresh food from somewhere? And fuel too?
It is a day / half day alongside to reload.
Then Diamond will rejoin and another will peel off.
Apparently a stock of Aster Missiles has been forwarded/pre-positioned,but it has not been disclosed where exactly that is yet.
In a hot conflict disclosing your munition dumps is asking for trouble.
So we will learn the answer to that far in the future.
I’d encourage other posters not to speculate on things like this.
Keep mum ,loose Lips sink Ships on your page with that one SB
I’m more think of USS Cole Mk2 which is the way these characters would be thinking.
A warship is very vulnerable tied up alongside.
Its GP coordinates are observable and plot-able on a map by any randoms.
So I do think we owe it to the crew not to speculate where she will resupply. Even manoeuvring in and out of harbour a ‘fishing vessel’ loaded with explosives can ram her.
If we make it easy all they need are eyeballs booked into a hotel in the likely locations and they will know.
And Iran loved using fast small boats (Boghammers) during the ” tanker war” of the Eighties doubt if they’ve forgotten how effective that was and Al queddas attack on the Cole went .But now if the Captain informs the crew that they’ll be going to X by the time he’s finished his speech the World knows through Social media unfortunately its no longer ” loose Lips ” it could be “loose Fingers”
I assumed a chinook could deliver a crate for quick supply 🙂
What RFA?
What navy does missile replenishment underway?
The RFA cannot resupply shots from vertical launch silos…the strength of vertical launch silos is their ability to respond to immediate saturation attacks, weakness of vertical launch silos is there ability to respond to attacks over a long period of time. As an example I believe a type 22 batch 3 carriers 88 sea wolf missiles in its magazines for its 2 sextuplet launchers..but could only ever have 12 ready to fire. The type 23 could fire every sea wolf it had in a continuous engagement but only had 32 missiles total also the type 22 could have new sea… Read more »
Good morning 🇬🇧, this has been said before and screams the bleedin’ obvious! There’s room for 1-2 MK41s, slots are there already, and even 2*3*6 CAMM down the sides and for a bonus maybe for an extra 2*4 NSMs. Seriously, what’s this fixation with 24 CAMM ? If it’s not enough, well find a way to increase it! Rant over, back to my ☕.. 😆
NSM will also be fitted to T45 in addition to the 24 CAMM. The 48 Sea Vipers will also all be the Aster 30 varient. Instead of a mix of Aster 15’s and 30s. A Wildcat with Martlet and Sea Venom missiles also offers even more firepower.
Good morning Robert, yes I am aware of this, it just the issue of the quantity of CAMM that particularly gets up my 🐐…for some reason. It’s adjustable upwards if they want to do it as are adding MK41s. If the T45s have another 10-15 years of life to go it might be well worth it and pending the T26/T31s coming into service. We watch and hope from the sidelines.
24 Cam + 48 Aster 30 would put a T45 ahead of a SM2 equipped AB with 96 tubes (assuming all with AAW missile, on targets that could be engaged. RN practise because of the type of missile is one per target. USN practise for the older and plentiful semi active SM2 variants is 2 per target. The issue I have with Mk41 for CAM is its cost and utility. If you intend to use the Mk41 for other missiles fine but then you lose out on CAM slots . If you want it for just CAM you will spend… Read more »
The Americans shoot two missiles at each target because they can afford to. If we could, we would too.
No…the majority of SM2 is a semi active radar homer. To keep the K% up you shoot 2. The RN did the same with Sea Dart (semi active) and Wolf (CLOS) . With Viper and SC being active homers you just need to get them in the basket close enough to the target before they go active.They dont go active until really close so reducing the escape chance of the target to almost zero.
Hi GB, my basic thing is whatever they’re doing with CAMM/CAMM-ER/MR particularly on the T31 and even T26 they could also do on the T45s. If not into Mk41s, which can be used for other things, if the six siloed CAMM were made into 8s that would also be an improvement. Hope they do not waste the space available for adding to the T45s.
Hi GB, some of us were discussing this in the thread dealing with the Polish putting CAMM in their Mark-41s on their Type-31 Variant. What LM and MBDA are both pushing as part of that deal is that they can quad pack CAMM and CAMM-ER using LM’s ExLS. The sixteen Mark-41 slots which would fit on the Type-45 would allow for 64 CAMM or CAMM-ER missiles to be carried freeing up the Sylver to carry their 48 Aster 30 Block1s and still have the 8/12/16 block of containerised NSMs where the Harpoons were mounted. By my calculations that is more… Read more »
Having Mk41s though would give the T45 the opportunity to be loaded with many more things other than SAMs, Tomhawks and ASROC which greatly enhances its combat effectiveness.
Tomahawks is a the only thing worth having. Forget ASROC. Wasting a tube on a rocket fitted with a sub optimal torp.
I get the argument both ways for this.
T45 should have had it’s Mk41s fitted from the start to increase the ships versatility.
Now however, I can accept the loss of the Mk41 and introduction of CAAM as it allows for Aster 15s to be replaced by longer ranged Aster 30s, possibly including BMD variants.
I’ve been having exactly the same thoughts Quentin. Someone mis-interpreted a very similar comment I made on another thread thinking that I was saying that should have installed MK41 on T45. That is definitely not my view, I was actually of the opinion that using the FFBNW space on T45, originally reserved for MK41, for a dedicated Sea Ceptor silo would be a great way to cost-effectively increase the T45 load-out but my issue is this. If the reserved deck space is sufficient to host the originally planned 16 x MK41 that deck space would have then been sufficient to… Read more »
Same same. We’ll have to see what eventuates. Maybe someone from those called “they” is reading ukdj and be influenced to our way of thinking for this one?
Time for 40mm or 57mm with ampleAA ammunition on every front line vessel.
That seems reasonable. MRSS look likely to have nearly frigate level defensive armament. See Damen Enforcer, which has been put forwards for the project and has the option to include even a 5″ to provide its own fire support. Also 40mm Bofors to allow small boat defence. Damen Crossover would also be nice; it includes VLS for air defence missiles like CAMM and a 57mm, so vastly improved over the Albions.
interesting isn’t it…is the day coming where the most powerful navies do have fast moving escorts but also the concept of a much larger ship c/w replenishment cargo decks, missile handling systems (with heave compensator systems as used in the oil and gas industry) and significant volumes of missiles, multi purpose medium caliber guns and direct energy weapons ……death star coming…who plays Vader….and there has to be a canteen!
More like a Star Destroyer, I would think. Launching multitudes of small UAVs, with powerful defensive armament and the ability to operate both alone and in a fleet.
Is the issue the lack of missiles per ship, or is it the number of ships? If HMS Diamond could carry a thousand missiles, could the crew remain on station at this level of alert for 12 months, 6 months, even 3 months? Two ships sharing the load with a swap out every 2 or 3 months (or less) sounds like a better scenario than lots more missiles.
It’s a combination of both. Like all RN ships they are under armed with just 48 Aster15/30 silos, and we only have 1 out of 6 vessels operational! Says it all.
The size of the missile load was less of an issue before drones etc came along.
Having 48 aster would be ok if the only threat was another nations aircraft/anti ship missiles. If the houtis only has missiles the load would last longer.
So is a USN AB with 96 tubes under armed when it needs to fire salvo shots of 2 x SM2 missiles at a target when the T45 needs to only shoot one?
A US AB has 96 x Mk41 vls and carries a mixture of SM2s & Tomahwaks so is far more flexible plus of course there are a lot more of them!!
Even better, they have to dilute their AD missiles with land attack, rather than NSM in separate canisters
You cannot shoot anything down with a Tomahawk. So actual AAW missiles available for use against air targets is actually lower than a T45.
There’s the option to build a couple of AAW T31/A140s to complement the T45s while waiting for the T83. Even if CAMM-ER is added into the Mk41s of the T26 fleet in addition the 6 siloed CAMMs.
A decade from announcement to get Sea Ceptor on the T45’s says a lot about the complete lack of urgency in defence circles. I’m sure the retort will be around budgets but you’d think adding them at the same time as their PIP upgrades would make a lot more sense! In terms of HMS Diamond / The Red Sea apparently there’s now a stock of Sea Viper at an overseas base. In this context Oman would be very handy, Gibraltar not so much! Ultimately yes all surface vessels need plenty of gun systems and Sea Ceptor to avoid burning through… Read more »
The issue is more around insertion cycles.
T45 needs to be fixed now to cover for the period when T23 starts to seriously fall apart.
Do you delay T45 PiP and risk a total availability calamity?
That said some of the Sea Ceptor work can be done alongside. The cabling etc can be done at sea or in short periods alongside.
The main issue is that you would need to fully de store the ship to do the cutting and welding for the Sea Ceptor silos.
The solution is not ideal but there is no other way – when HMS Diamond is short of Missiles she will have to make her way to the designated port to restock and replenish.A stock of Aster Missiles have been forwarded but as yet we don’t know where.Duncan and Dauntless are also key ,as soon as it is practical one of them or ideally both of them should set sail there to add to Operation Prosperity Guardian, to relieve Diamond for restocking or for doubling up.Also in might not be a bad idea to have a stock of Starstreak MANPADS… Read more »
A proper AA gun would have helped for anti slow drones.
I’ll hazard that very few warships could have repelled unscathed the sustained attack made on HMS Diamond. T45 does what it says on the tin, but it was designed before the advent of drone swarms. I am sure the plan to add 24 Sea Ceptors ( a much cheaper missile) will be reviewed to see if it can be accelerated. The pressure is on to get T26 and T31 completed and into service. In the meantime Richmond with Sea Ceptors will relieve HMS Diamond if she needs to reload. Kudos and thanks to the USN who are dealing with the… Read more »
24 CAMM can be made to 36 if the want. Or more if quad packed into 1-2 MK41s and if they’re looking at doing that on the T31s there’s got to be some benefits here?
It would be nice to get 8 cell quad packed giving 56 Camm 48 aster and 8 cell land attack.
Indeed, kudos to the US but questions to international partners as to why they are happy to benefit from the protection but not happy to share the load?
Quite. National self interest at work. The UK hasn’t been able to feed itself since the middle of the 19th century. Remember the Atlantic convoys; Hitler attempted to starve us into submission. Mainland Europe is much more comfortably situated as regards food. Energy is a great leveller, France built a lot of ( now aging ) nuclear power to reduce its dependence on foreign energy. Germany did a deal with the devil Putin and has been forced to look to imported US gas. The UK has a significant dependence on Gulf gas. All of our plastic toys, solar panels, cotton… Read more »
Not enough for a sustained fight. That could be the assessment of every single aspect of the UKs military. Sadly there is no sign that those in a position to change that actually give a fuck.
100%
Seems all very well some people saying they should have been prepared for this, the ship should have a thousand silos, and more AA guns blah blah. But isn’t mass drone attacks a relatively new thing, that all navies etc need to adapt too, and that doesn’t happen overnight, but also, I’m pretty certain that the UK isn’t the only country that relies on goods transitioning through the red sea, so whilst this particular class of ship may be one of the best of its type in the world,likely the best, isn’t there any other navies who can deploy similar… Read more »
Drone attacks, drone swarms etc have been talked about for 20 years now. Whilst the tech is only just starting to really appear the threat was seen coming a long time ago. As usual though heads were buried in the sand and no proactive work done on defending from the threat.
I like the comments about what weapons systems should be available and what ships should be available , HMS Diamond is the only UK warship there , we have nothing readily available to back her up , if she were to come under constant mass attack tomorrow how long would it be before she runs out of ammo and is vulnerable to getting sunk ?? The Houthi’s I think are smart enough to work out how they would benefit from such tactics, if they are brave enough to risk the wrath of the US responding. Cheap drones in large enough… Read more »
The limited stocks of high tech weaponry is a problem faced by every protagonist. The Yemen based terrorists don’t have an endless supply and neither do their Iranian suppliers. Once the fancy weapons have gone, we can always resort to cheap drones or pitchforks. Although shovels make a much more effective weapon.
We were ,and still are a Navy which has too rely on ” Make do and Mend ” without creating a scene and just get on with the task at hand
The weapons deployed by the Houthis are not the most sophisticated. In the scenario in which surface warships are targeted by land based ASMs as capable as those available to western navies, the anti access tactics will likely prevail. On the issue of missile numbers, few modern destroyers carry more. The larger ABs load is 90/96 but the missiles are generally launched in pairs to be effective. With the planned addition of sea ceptor, the T45s will be at least as well armed as the ABs.. But some less expensive defence against cheap drones also needs to be considered. We… Read more »
Better at least than the Americans, for whom SM-6 costs nearly $5m; SM3, according to a quick google, costs at least $10m. Aster is between £1-2m and is launched singly, so we have an enormous advantage in cost efficiency. I’d bet that if we just multiplied the British armed forces by our difference in defence budget, we’d outmatch the Americans in nearly every field.
The difference is in the RN arsenal there isn’t a sm3 or sm6 equivalent. That’s not to knock the aster in any way but the sm3 is a abm/anti satellite weapon while the sm6 which is the usn most modern missile is a do it all anti air, anti surface, abm, land attack, and soon to be anti hypersonic weapon.
Well, once we have ABM capability, that gap won’t be as bad. My point was that, while people attack MOD waste, we aren’t actually that inefficient relative the the US system
Agreed completely. No entity on the planet waste as much as the US DOD.
Perhaps the Aussie idea of packing more VLS on the Type 26 is not so crazy.
We should be looking at this across the whole fleet.
If it has got through Slasher Cameron’s dense cranium that we live in a very much more dangerous world hopefully it will get through Sunak’s and get the defence budget nearer 3%, do something about retention and recruitment.
And build our defences back up before we are royally caught up the creek without a paddle AGAIN!!
Stupid post . They can obviously be taken to nearest port for more missile supplys no big deal .
Except they can’t. Stupid post.
Hi David, Please help
Is it a technical loading problem for the missiles?
Oman, an old friend opened Duqm port in 2022 on the Indian Ocean The UK signed an agreement with Oman to use it as a logistics base including QE2 carriers Fly a C17to the newish airport at Duqm with the replacement missiles.
On another note down the coast towards the Yemeni border was the famous battle of Mirbat where in 1972 10 SAS men held off and defeated 100’s of Dhofari rebels. Also I think the rebels were supported by a pro Soviet Yemen Nothing changes
Gunbuster is your man re. loading missiles, what I understand is that the sea would have to be dead calm for both the ships to transfer live ordinance otherwise expect things to go boom.
The problem is the Gulf States are being undermined by Tehran and being pulled into the Chinese sphere of influence…
As to Mirbat, the SAS were supported by local troops and, Robert Blay, RAF Strikemasters (?).
The environment today is very different.
Yes you’re right 50+ local militia 30 Balochi Askari 25 Omani police and the 3 Strikemasters turned up just at the right time
It was still very special that small international bunch of SAS
I was in the Gulf States around that time and was friendly with some Gulf Air crew. The ladies were excited about an upcoming visit to Muscat and the RAF!
Gulf States? Not where I am sat they aren’t…
UKJLSB would be ideal, but it is well within the range of Houthi / Iranian missiles and Diamond would be a sitting duck. Also I doubt Oman wants to paint a Bull’s eye on their backs.
Yes
A very good point! The Omanis unlike most Arab states have kept on goodish terms with Iran and have managed to steer clear of trouble with Yemen since their unification in 1990?
So not UKJLSB Diego Garcia? Cyprus? Haifa? Souda Bay? Naples? Gib? I can see that Cyprus and Greece might object
Just seen your post below Eilat would be the most convenient
Hi Peter,
I don’t think they can do that. The ‘nearest port’ has to be friendly and allow our naval ships access plus allow reloading of munitions. I’m not sure that too many ports will allow that. And even if they did, I think the port needs to have some fairly sophisticated loading facilities so any port won’t do.
It is not that simple.
Which port? Is it available, secure and do we have the people ashore with all the right kit and missiles? What happens about taking our one deployed T45 off station for some time?
No problem look at a Map and consider just how dangerous it can be, most of the obvious Ports will be unavailable as their leaders don’t want the Houthi firing at them. The nearest RN Base is HMS Juffair which is in Bahrain, it has the necessary facilities and hosts a Bay class, a couple of MCM and a T23. However to get there you have to transit the Straits of Hormuz so a sitting target for the Iranians, and you need Bahrains permission to dock there. Nearer is the Joint Logistics Base at Al Duqm in Oman which has… Read more »
It it the one that got sunk?
Go compare with Chinese Type 055 D Destroyer
The Americans asked. China refused. So I would love to compare the US or British destroyers to a Chinese one, but there’s no comparing a ship that is there with one that isn’t.
China was invited to join in providing Naval escorts But diplomatically declined Politely saying that as they have consistently stated that the only possible solution to Israel / Palestine scenario is for a immediate cease fire and talks to broker A 2 state solution Not by adding more fuel to the fire which can only increase the chances of the situation spreading out of control In the long run The West is slowly but surely losing any influence it has with Middle East Nations ,this is also true for Nearly all Arab , Islamic and Global South Nations All this… Read more »
The current issue with the Houthis has very little to do with Gaza, and a bit more to do with Israel. The Houthis have got high on the thrill of poking the bear. China ought to realise that they have a lot to lose from the increased costs of world trade, arguably more than the UK. Hard-nosed refusal to engage with the West over a global issue will cost them in the long run. Aren’t the CCP all about magnanimous generosity in victory and would leap at the chance to demonstrate US dependence? Or are they worried that displaying their… Read more »
Are you stupid enough to not realise that all Chinese shipping has almost certainly
Been already given the all clear to sail on regardless by Iran and it’s proxies
Tis good to/ From other sources in Bed with the USA that are extremely vulnerable
With the resultant economic inflationary effects
Strategists in Iran and Yemen are the fools of none
The West has blindly sailed into a situation that the future of which is far from certain and within their ability to contain
The quickest and easiest would to have another type 45 nearby the swop while HMS Diamond is replenished at the closet friendly port, a bit of a tag team style.
This is where the RFA comes into its own they could carry sufficient spare missiles to replenish the type 45s. I wonder how long it would take to replenish 48 missiles someone on here will know 🤔
We only have one remaining RFA Fort that can carry munitions and she is in CL dock being fixed. So no can’t be done, it will have to be a C17 airlift job.
Think your Taranto idea above is probably the RNs quickest and most effective reload as the Italians probably wouldn’t need us to deliver them immediately just replenish what we take.
The answer to this is our inept governments should have built the eight t 45s.then manned the recruiting offices with rn personnel, not some agency.then we would have had both ships and manpower to do the job.
Should have built the 12 ships the RN wanted and had a solid operational case for.
100%
Looking at the post’s others have been saying. Is the planned introduction of 24. Sea Scepter enough. Could two MK 41 systems be fitted in the same space as the 24 mushroom farm? this would 1 give a posable load out of 64 Sea Scepter quad pack missiles, or a combination of a wide array of missiles that are used by the US.
The Dutch Tromps and Aus Hobart’s have 2*32 =64 ESSMs and 32 SM2s. If they do this with the 64 CAMMs and 48 Aster, that’s a hell of a lot better than just 24 CAMM + Aster.
According to Gunbuster, 32 SM2s= 16 Aster, so the loadouts are roughly equivalent
T45 was designed to take 24 Mk41 strike in the area now getting 24 CAMM
so yes it can have mk41
Such a shame that the media and social media-ites think its clever to publish our defensive shortcomings.
Hi, you’re poorly informed on this. The Royal Navy list the number of cells each ship carries on its website. Id recommend you become a wee bit more familiar with the topic.
Sadly old chap, you’re missing the point here 🙁
Please expand. If we don’t know what we have, we can’t push for more. Like in China, they could have converted container ships as warships for all we know and the population would still lap up the propaganda
As usual our mod mandarins have made sure we are unable to fight, we have less than 10 operational ships, 2 more and the marines about to be scrapped, no bullets, no shells, no missiles, and all to ‘save money’ while we have 20 or so admiral’s and at least 3 civil servants per fighting man
Dave, it’s a mess. Our politicians will never take our defence seriously until it’s too late. To be fair, a significant portion of our voting public won’t take defence seriously either. Our politicians feed off that complacency and give the public what they want so they can get back into power. This is why we have only six T45s and why we may lose our assault ships.
Yes bad isn’t it. Defence spending must be raised, also the housing and conditions for all 3 services. If we wish to retain trained people. As for the RN the ship’s in build and planed take far too long to get off the computer screen and into service. The type 23 is well passed its best. Government medalling changing there minds and delaying construction is partly why we are in this mess. Ask your self when was the Type 26 conceived. The hole system needs changing. Im not sure if any political party has the answer. It’s a very sad… Read more »
We could do with getting rid of all the consultants in the NHS paid a fortune to ‘ensure’ we cater for those that identify as a tree and those who never learn the language and all the rest. That would pay for a doubling of the armed forces.
Yes Dave something like that. It’s just a crazy world we are living in and I don’t think it’s going to get any better any time soon. The Type 26 Started way back in 1998 . I hope someone is working on the replacement 😂
can T45 quad pack sea captor in its VLS
30 tubes with Seaceptor would increase the load out from 48 to 138 and allow it to be on station longer.
realistically I don’t think aster 15 is better than seaceptor, so quad pack is a major upgrade
this goes to show how we need to have quad packing silos on all major ships
Except if you want to do serious ABM or long range air defence when you need Aster 30 out to 70+miles as opposed to SC out to say 12 miles.
Keep all the Aster 30s and add SC in its easy to install launch system.
hi Gunbuster – hope you’re keeping well you are right in an ideal world, but once Diamond has fired off its 48 missiles it needs to go off station, the above is what can we do in the very short term with minimal effort. for the threat at hand -surely a cheaper missile backed up by 18 aster 30’s is a better mix I was also under the impression that CAMM is 25km+ range – if this is incorrect then so is my logic. I would like to see the additional 24 cells being added to T45 – mk41 strike… Read more »
But basically these ships are good to fend off a couple of russian sorties after which they are sunk – literally.
By that point, 10 or so Russian jets have been shot down and the CSG is steaming at full speed away from the coast. F35s have been launched, shooting down even more jets. I doubt the risk to the ship would be too great, as the ship would never be allowed into a situation where it runs out of missiles, the risk would be too much for that mission to be undertaken.
Yeah, i hope you are right but we have but 2 carriers and planes for just 1, personally I would like to see the UK government make service attractive, i.e. decently paid, decent (British) equipment and a future of growth not the abrupt cut backs we have seen every year for the last 50.why would anyone join today, sent ill equipped and prosecuted if you dare fight back and if you survive a p45 and minimum redundancy pay. We should have a couple of aircraft carriers per ocean, a couple for home defence, a couple for the med, all with… Read more »
That’s America level investment and not something we will ever match. I think the best possible outcome from here will be to have our two carriers so that one is always, if not operational, at least available. I too would like the service to be a proper career path. Many ads at the moment would appeal to the young person who has failed to achieve their dream job and wants to make a difference. The Forces need to show that they can be a dream job in their own right
I know it is. We have either the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world, it is time we stopped paying for people to do unimportant things like inclusion courses and building gender neutral toilets in schools and invested heavily where it matters, ensuring we have freedom ourselves. This means vastly increasing the fleet and the carriers. 2 is NOT enough, not even if both were actually operational. Even for the Falklands we needed 3 – only 2 on station at a time but we deployed 3, yes they were smaller but actually those new giants hold very few… Read more »
At present they are on station 24/7 which is a very exhausting business for the crews and what happened off Italy against the German glider bombs and against the kamikaze in the Pacific later on with Okinawa which was intensive action over weeks. For the most part even the the carriers stayed out and only came in for say 12 hours max to launch strikes and recover as with the tungsten ops vs Tirpitz. From the armchair we should be arming up and running convoys and clearing off out of it. Maybe we are doing just that.
No.
Replacing the 4.5 inch gun for a 57mm is the way to go. Ultimately you cannot carry sufficient missiles for all eventualities, or it becomes prohibitively expensive.
Engage slower targets with the 57mm at max range, use ceptor closer in if getting worried/missing/leakers.
Target supersonic threats with your big hitters, as these will be more serious weapons.
Ultimately having marines on board with manpads could be a last resort/extra contingency.
AA
You do know they have 2 Phalanx CIWS fitted don’t you. As for swapping out the 4.5 it will just not happen.
During WW2 people didn’t realise the effect air power would have on naval warfare. As the war went on ships kept upgrading AA guns to cope. I think we’re at the beginning of that kind of slope with drones – what’s the point of even 96 missiles if the enemy sends 100 drones after you? Every ship around is beginning to look woefully under-gunned at the moment.
Asters are heavy and awkward to reload, but how about CAMM? I don’t know how much the full canister weighs but the missile is only 99kg, a fraction of Aster 15. Perhaps a mobile reloading machine that can be driven to the silo, like a forklift rather than a crane?
Sea Ceptor pose the same reloading problems as with Aster,smaller and lighter yes but without a Crane and a stable Ship awkward.
Shouldn’t be beyond a competent group of engineers and a hydraulic or electric powered system on rails, maybe an AI controlled arm.
We need operational laser capability yesterday
Time we bought SeaRAM, add one to the beak(above the bridge?) one to the bum (well on top of the hanger) in addition to the gun Phalanx, then saddle packs of SeaCeptors either side of the hanger.
In the meantime hold our breath and hope the Iranians don’t have a copy of Janes Fighting Ships or Internet access to figure it out.
We need to up our CIWS game for ALL our ships.
We could start thinking about using really thick steel hulls?
A number of large calibre canons firing a form of buckshot?
Of course the ship would need a large number of those barrels, maybe in quads? I’m thinking maybe 14 or 15″ guns?
Back in the real world SeaRam is a quick fix standalone that we could literally bolt on and it uses the same Phalanx radar and can be reloaded on the move.
They really need to fit adaptable deck launchers or similar not only could these fire virtually every missile that goes in a mk 41 but they don’t need the deck to be cut into & as angled unlike a VLS can be reloaded meaning if you have an RFA in tow you could access a larger magazine. No brainer in my personal opinion BAE CMS will have to have MK41 weapons programmed for T26 anyway.
Adding SM-3, SM-6 potentially some more quad packed Sea Ceptor
I still think we need tiered armourments and a weapon system that can determine between threat levels. Don’t get me wrong, spending $1m to save $100m+ per ship saved is a no brainer. But we need large stocks of cheap munitions for lower grade threats and knocking out the decade old armour. Can’t spend $0.5m each time we need to take out a rust bucket tank that’s been in storage for 20yrs or a “home made” rocket. It’s like nuclear ballistic missile defence. Yep, try knocking out the vehicle in space but as a back up just nuke a 1mile… Read more »
Just about sums up how our armed forces have been diminished by a penny pinching government.
Wow… this does no more than increase the embarrassment in Britain’s Armed Forces.
The RFA can’t load Sea Viper.
Not technically proficient in these matters, so this may seem dumb: By the time the stock of missiles have been used up in heavy combat, the crew will need rotating, won’t they? The real problem is not having another fully operational Diamond Class vessel to take over the duty Conclusion: we are going to need to triple the number of “Diamonds”, given that Iran, Russia and China will be working in concert over the next 5-10 years, and a Trump Presidency could finally force the Europeans to pay the full cost of their defence. They having been living off the… Read more »