During a visit to the BAE Systems shipyard in Glasgow today, Defence Secretary Grant Shapps highlighted the potential economic risks of Scottish independence on the UK’s military shipbuilding industry.
Myself and other journalists were invited to tag along and ask questions.
Speaking to Shapps in the ‘Robert Napier Building’, an office block within the shipyard, under the bow of massive Type 26 frigate HMS Cardiff, I sought clarification on the future of the shipyard both as part of the UK and outside of the UK.
I asked, “So, we’re sitting in front of the second of eight Type 26 Frigates. Now, once that programme is done, can Scottish builders count on future work on Type 83 or Type 32, and with Scottish independence once again a talking point, will this workforce come to Scotland from the UK Government if Scotland were to be independent?”
In his response, Shapps began by acknowledging the current state of shipbuilding in Glasgow, “This is a magnificent Type 26, HMS Cardiff, out the window behind us and I have just been having a look around some of the new build technology and the approach to building, it is fantastic.”
Shapps added, “I’ve actually just also come back from Australia a month or two ago, and the Osborne shipyard in Adelaide where they are building their Hunter version of the Type 26 and there’s a shed here called the Osborne, or location, where they’re learning backwards and bringing it in, some of the skills they’ve learned, into this programme here. So it’s already massive international collaboration, not just the Australians, but the Canadians too. Of course, we know there’s potentially other export markets as well or joint endeavours and joint ventures.”
Would independence end UK naval shipbuilding in Scotland? The UK Government believes so. Our editor @geoallison asked Defence Secretary @grantshapps today under the shadow of the new Type 26 Frigate HMS Cardiff at the BAE Systems shipyard in Glasgow; here's what he had to say. pic.twitter.com/NfR5FOOode
— UK Defence Journal (@UKDefJournal) May 9, 2024
Answering the question of whether Scottish shipyards can expect more work, Shapps told me, “So, I think my sense is, a really bright future for this shipyard and others in Scotland, sadly, all of which will be put at risk by some of the Scottish nationalist rhetoric, which seems to think that the 25,000 jobs which come from those who both work in the UK military, and are Scottish, and also who work in the industry.”
Turning to the broader implications for employment and economic investment, Shapps warned, “25,000 jobs a year in Scotland would be put at risk, 2 billion pounds and growing each year spent by the MOD building these types of things would be put at risk.”
Concluding, Shapps reflected on the personal impact on workers, particularly younger apprentices who are seeing significant benefits from their involvement in the shipbuilding industry. “I just met apprentices this morning, who tell me that their friends are envious of both the work that they do the sort of job titles that you end up with when you do some of this work, but also the pay. And often if they’re doing a degree apprenticeship or, or straight apprenticeship, the lack of debt to get this far as well. It’s an amazing opportunity and I think it’s something that Scotland is rightly proud of, and it’s a shame not all representatives feel the same way.”
It would I presume take years and millions (perhaps billions) of Govt aid to transfers warship work to England money lost to actual warships I fear let alone delays. One wonders additionally what Bae might think in such circumstances especially after the investment put in. Doesn’t bode well either side of the border for many years sadly and I can just imagine the animosity from Scotland and Scottish workers at not letting them build ‘our’ ships.
Would not an independent Scotland not have to bid against other yards? I assume the German or French yards could give them a run for their money and that’s assuming we haven’t got everything in place here in the UK. Seems a big risk to take.
Why not? Shipbuilding is only one ‘small’ industry in national terms anyway. The purpose of Naval shipbuilding is defence not employment!
Royal Navy ships would not be put out to bid for the simple reasons Royal Navy Ships can’t be built by Shipyards outside of the UK by Law, if Scotland got independence they will loose RN work and all the money that it generates for Scotland.
That’s fair enough, but laws can always be changed. My point being if Scotland did go independent and there was a point when we as the UK weren’t up to speed (not an unusual occurrence) to build what’s was required, then Scotland shouldn’t automatically think they would. As I was saying there’s a lot of good ship builders in Europe that could be chosen over them.
It would take extra money, but the boost to the UK economy would make it worthwhile. I would not be surprised if there were not a simple guarantee of work in England for Ships, Submarines, Drones, Aircraft lasting decades. BAE etc. would make the investment and recuit the workers if that were the case in a heartbeat. Keep many people on this site happy as well.
Yeah moving two small ship yards building one ship every two years with about 6,000 people working in them would revolutionise the economy of England and make it totally worth while. Those 6,000 jobs compared to the 30 million people currently employed in England.
Not something I’ve checked, but comment was “25,000 jobs a year in Scotland would be put at risk,” – so more than 6,000 people. It would be a massive boost for whichever gained the work – and it would likely be a deprived area.
25,000 jobs, many of which use transferrable skills anyway, against the potential other benefits for around 6,000,000 people?
What?…You are conflating the actual number of jobs that could be available against the ammount of people that could benefit from moving those job ? Surely those two numbers have nothing to do with each other?
I mean if they were to go world wide for those positions would you be quoting 7 billion as potential beneficiaries?
You are over reading! What is more important the few jobs building a warship every couple of years or the possible benefits to the rest of the population?
What other benefits? A hard border with the rest of the UK? A government that, to date, has proven itself to be the least competent in the UK? Rejoin the EU? – but lose free trade and movement with the UK?
Don’t you read things? The benefits of not being dictated to by Tory Westminster, being able to structure things to suit ourselves. Do you not see the even worst incompetence and self interest of Westminster? When arguing a case you also need to examine your own standpoint! Holyrood by ALL measures is more competent and society oriented than WM! Rejoining the EU is something to be considered and is NOT automatic. Do you not see the consequences of being out of EU? Free Trade and movement would be part of the negotiation, and in any event free trade with a… Read more »
Ermm.. Hollywood is better by ALL measures?
Have you had a look at Scotland’s education stats recently?
I agree that Brexit was a mistake. Have you got any hard stats on what proportion of trade from Scotland was with Europe rather than, as you would put it, rUK?
You undermine your own argument on this site by having previously been shown to state bald lies on Scotland’s tax stability.
Oops, ought to read Holyrood
This is about opportunities in the future, not arguing about problems in the existing constitutional culture. You do realise (apparently not though) that Holyrood, Cardiff, and Stormont’s hands are tied by the funding allocated by Westminster which is itself based primarily on what England wants. Within that system there is little scope for manouevre and the ability to control all of our income in line with our priorities is very limited. Funding for public services across the UK has been cut year on year since 2008 and it is that which dictates what we have to play with. Also bear… Read more »
You haven’t answered my original point. In addition, you bluster about a lack of resources in Scotland, but that isn’t really backed up by evidence. I have pointed out to you before that more government money is spent in Scotland than is raised in tax, so your dreaded Westminster overlords are actually giving the Scots money beyond their means. In the event of independence the tax revenue would further drop as a result of the inevitable economic slump (you talk about the EU but the limbo of a newly independent Scotland would send investors running for the hills), so the… Read more »
You cannot make statements of certainty about what has not yet happened. The facts are that a) we only get back directly half of our tax. The rest is spent on our behalf by someone else. The resources available to Scotland per head are greater than those for England. Westminster uses those resources for their own ends and then tell us we can’t afford it because England does not allow us to use our resources. Go and read the various Business for Scotland reports. Just because they don’t align with your preconceived ideas does not make them wrong. No, repeat… Read more »
Who’s to say the EU would agree to take Scotland back in to the block, even if they did it wouldn’t be straight away and what of those Scots living and working in England, would they want to change nationality or return to Scotland, going to be interesting times if the vote ever happens.
Many in England actually want the Scots to vote for independence as their sick of hearing about it.
Who EVER says otherwise? You are repeating unionist propaganda and attributing something unsaid to those supporting independence. The FACTS are that a majority of Scots would like to rejoin EU. Whether or not that remains a preference is untested. That is not the same as your limited assumption that someone asserts that it would be automatic! Yes you ask questions about individual’s intentions but that is not the same as assuming they would be against or even for the concepts that you seem to think you know more about than the individuals you ascribe those comments to! We DO know… Read more »
Interestingly you mention sources.
The EU leadership thought the UK wouldn’t vote out, but we did.
An independent Scotland would also have to go through the vetting process and then a vote, the same as any other country wishing to join.
I’m actually pro independent, you assume otherwise.
My younger family tend to believe the rhetoric and pipe dreams of the SNP, while the older members are scared for their pensions and future.
Blinkers and bullshit are present on both sides and only time will decide.
You are right. There are processes, but that was not the argument. Pipe dreams are all about thinking of the future and the possibilities arising from change. The independence rhetoric is all about what could be done and the potential benefits. The unionist rhetoric is all about denying those opportunities and pretending that Westminster is perfect and couldn’t be better. The older people’s future is a lot shorter than that of the youngsters so they can look further ahead realistically. The older people fear change, and UK pensions will be paid anywhere as they are now.
The EU has already stated we would be welcome. No one says it would be straight away, and neither does anyone say about forcing people to change ‘nationality’, you have heard of dual citizenship – perhaps not. All these things that you state with certainty are subject to future negotiation. It is a pity that many who want Scots to vote for independence do not themselves tell the Westminster Parliament to stop being obstructive! And who says that there would be no joint arrangements? At least 50% of Scots are all sick of being told we cannot determine our own… Read more »
25,000 job also includes all people from Scotland serving in the armed forces so it’s nothing to do with either independence or ship building.
So the interests of those 25,000 should overrule the interests of the remaining five and half million?
The investment going in to Govan which is all privately funded is tiny and pales in comparison to the vast sums of public money from both Australia and the UK currently being emptied into Barrow and Derby. I’m sure Scottish and rUK taxpayers would both feel aggrieved about the waste of money on independence which is probably one of the reasons that people in Scotland voted to stay in the UK.
Well they are ‘ours’ at the momemt at least…
The Ships should never have been built in Scotland there was Shipyards in England and Northern Ireland capable of building but it was decided to try and curry favour with the SNP so England and Northern Ireland lost out of the investment. If Scotland won independence there is no option but to transfer ship building south of the border since it would take a change in the law to have RN warships built by a foreign shipyard which will never happen. If Bae wished to continue building RN Warships they would have to bring a shipyard south of the border… Read more »
Everyone knows that Scotland cannot have it both ways. They are either in or out. Whilst this is effectively election chatter by Shapps he makes a good point the industry would move South prior to independence (should that ever happen). An independence vote will not happen under any party for the foreseeable future is the argument – so why not vote conservate and boost the industry in Scotland. The importance of Scotland to the UK and NATO generally will likely bring much money flooding in. The facilities currently being built that Schapps saw today could be replicated anywhere. New Submarine… Read more »
Funny you should say that, Scotland actually had a referendum on the issue already and people voted by a decent margin to stay in the UK settling the issue for atleast a generation.
Yes well if the SNP disbanded, being replaced by parties who want to move Scotland forward within the Union that would be Brilliant. The focus for everyone should be enhancing the lives of all our citizens by good Government. Scots have a devolved administration – they should run it and run it well. Oh and perhaps England could do that as well.😂
Disbanding political parties because you don’t like them is not very democratic. Indeed we have an armed forces to stop people who wish to follow such policies.
Don’t be daft Jim the SNP (for example) would only disband if it had achieved it’s objective or no longer had support. Now the former is no longer likely (at least in the foreseeable future) perhaps the latter will be true. At no point have I, or would I, suggest we ban political parties – this isn’t Russia.
yeah but…but..but…Brexit ….evil England telling Scotland what to do……etc etc.
I agree but apparently a couple of political parties in Scotland didn’t get that memo.😀
But that’s how democracy works, you won’t see me complaining about extremist English parties like Britain first or the Conservative Party.
Yeah completely agree Tories are now almost identical to the Labour Party. Both extremely unfit to govern 😀
New Submarine facilities needed ? Really ! have you never heard of Barrow in Furness or Cammel Laird. ?
Oh I was unaware we had so much free space for Submirines. Why doesn’t that explain why we haven’t got any space to do any maintenance on any of them 😂
No chance of Scotland going independent now. That ship has sailed!
Slow news day, let’s drag up the past and ask a guy who definitely won’t be in office or making decisions in five minutes about hypothetical debates that won’t happen for decades just to stir up a bit of animosity and generate some clicks.
Nothing better than throwing the old Scotland verses England hand grenade in then walking away.
That’s is quality journalism.
He’s the guy in role ATM so there’s no one else to ask. As long as the nats keep banging on about independence it’s a relevant question.
Journalism is also about being prepared to go there and ask the questions of those in power. If you don’t think they’re the right questions you can always apply and go yourself.
Exactly…
Never believed there was a serious problem between the Scots & the English personally. You are right that the media is milking the story at the moment but only becuase they think the story is approaching it’s natural conclusion so they are making hay while the sun shines. Personally I would say this is good for Scotland without independence hanging over it investment should flow.
Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance 🙂
I’d like to clarify that the intention behind the article was not to exacerbate tensions between Scotland and England but to highlight significant, current discussions about the economic implications of Scottish independence, particularly regarding the shipbuilding industry. The visit by the Defence Secretary to the BAE Systems shipyard and his comments are timely and relevant, especially as they address potential future scenarios that could have profound impacts on thousands of jobs and the overall economic health of the region. These issues are of considerable importance to many of our readers, whose livelihoods and futures may be directly influenced by these… Read more »
Good to know George, I’m just getting tired of the old political divisions . People in Scotland are rapidly moving away from the SNP and I rather we heal these old wounds. Grant shapps and the conservatives want to keep them open, it’s the Tory’s and snp that benefit from our division.
O/T but bae realted. Does anybody know why BAE Systems withdrew its plans to construct a new production facility at a site in Barrow?
Hi Coll, A quick rummage on the internet suggests that BAE Systems may be making changes to their plans. The earlier statements around not building the new production facilities seems to be bad news, but they appear to be intending to build a large research center now. It could be that there are more announcements to come as they are going to need more production capacity if they are going to deliver the numbers of future SSN’s currently being talked about. In short, it looks like a change of plans rather than scrapping. I will see. Cheers CR PS. I… Read more »
Let’s put it this way – they need to build the subs at a certain pace to secure their business cash flow……so it will happen!
It would be logical for the UK to consolidate ship building south if Scotland were to leave the union, any calls otherwise are delusional cries.
The lack of a proper naval strategy also means ship building in the south cannot regenerate. Orders in excess of capacity to build would be the stimulas required alongside government nous (sic) to stipulate such construction in areas which previously built the navy which defended the (island) nation.
Sadly, the UK lacks such public, media and political strength (context: …we want eight and we won’t wait).
This is a pointless article, independence is not going to happen anytime soon if ever. Yes there are people in Scotland who believe that Scotland should be independent but are they willing to live in an independent Scotland, the slashing to and into the bone of public services. If people think the NHS, education or the roads is bad now, you have seen nothing yet.
Yes Scotland can be independent but I don’t think people will like it.
Well some will- obviously – or they wouldnt have voted for it.
Fortunately the larger population see through the Nationalist BS and economy with the truth.
As the vote was held already it makes no sense to do it again, not for a few decades at the very least. However if the polls for independence start to drift towards yes (they haven’t, yet), it will create an uncertainty that will discourage further investment in Scotland and may even spur a debate to diversify ship building as a risk hedging strategy, which would end up furthering the independence cause ironically. Personally I say let them be independent, let Northern Ireland go as well. England, despite being 85% of the whole, is also the victim of a toxic… Read more »
Scotland gets about 8.9% of uk defence spending and pays about 8.5% of all uk taxes so what the fuck are you on about. If you want independence for England then there are political parties representing that, you can join and I’m sure we all wish you well.
Thank you and well said!!
I am “fucking” on about the basic fact that with bigger budgets comes bigger projects. In no way do I mean to imply that Scotland does not contribute its fair share to the budget in any area, including defence, but do you honestly think the amount of money being spent on ship building projects is possible with an independent Scotland? Looking at % contributions does not paint a clear picture. Scotland would have to spend the majority of their defence budget on ship building to get the same economic benefit they do as part of the UK, and would not… Read more »
“Thanks” for helping the nationalist cause.
The vote is not drifting anywhere close to a yes nor will it once the SNP loose their favourite Westminster boogey man.
Despite their public “ hatred” of the Tories in private they do everything they can to keep the Tories in power.
I sincerely hope Scotland can put this period behind them, especially with the removal, hopefully for 2 parliaments at the least, of the Tory government, and a humbling of the SNP at the next Scottish Election.
I am an optimist at heart and combined the UK can try to make something of the situation we are in after Brexit. With any luck increased investment in the Defense Industry & more international collaboration will bring more to Scotland and England both.
It is all doninos, with every SNP MP not re elected to Westminster means less money going into the SNP bank account, they have barely enough to fight the GE. So I am optimistic there will be a siesmic shift on both sides of the border. All Labour needs to do is govern effectively and start to clean up the very long list of SNP screw ups. Unfortunately this will take a very long time and things will get worse before they get better. All of which give the NAts a chance to regain a foot hold.
5th columnists busy sowing seeds of discontent again?. Globalists and Communists make good bedfellows don’t they.
It’ll be funny having UK Warships built in Communist China.
I don’t think shipbuilding or any jobs are put at risk by rhetoric. The SNP can say whatever they want and it won’t make a jot of difference. Scotland actually leaving would put the jobs at risk as the government has made it clear it wouldn’t build warships in a foreign country, but that isn’t going to happen during this parliament or the next. So it’s all a bit of a non-issue. Given a chance to ask the Minister about building escorts in Scotland, this was the wrong question as it couldn’t possibly have produced a useful answer. Why not… Read more »
I think we have squeezed the Scottish independence lemon dry. The SNP have shot themselves in the foot so many times they have fallen over. By the time they recover, if they do, devolution in England will have had a significant effect on the Westminster – Whitehall centric governance of the UK. The West Midlands has roughly the same population as Scotland.
I feel making anything that could sound like a commitment to further orders from specific yards is a mistake.
Promise investment and an opportunity to compete for definite orders and nothing more.
The rUK won’t build warships in Scotland come independence. No major European country builds its warships in third party states. It’s a complete non starter for security, economic and political reasons.
The question of independence is MUCH bigger than whether or not Royal Navy warships are built in Scotland. While there is clear concern at the delayed ferries from one small yard that does not reflect the general competence of Scottish shipbuilding which will remain one of our industries. The ferry contract was complicated by a new and in UK untested propulsion system and a design and build form of contract. There is no reason why an independent Scotland cannot enter into mutually beneficial contracts with any other country and the UK already has a very long history of multi-national collaboration… Read more »
IScotland can build ships for any nation it likes. But the rUK taxpayer will be asking why their taxes are being spent in a foreign country when they could be spent supporting yards in the rUK which had been previously closed to move shipbuilding to Scotland. The rUK Government will be asking BAe why, as it’s principal customer, BAe are not prepared to invest in construction in the rUK and why, indeed, orders should be placed with BAe, in that case, as distinct from Germany, Italy or Spain for example. And someone in the rUK might might ask why state… Read more »
Has ANYBODY suggested otherwise? It is a false narrative. Nobody has ever tried to insist that RN will continue to procure ships from a ‘foreign’ country. This is a typical piece of misinformation orignated by unionist sources to create mischief. Bear in mind that BAe has huge multinational links even though a British company as does Rolls Royce. You as an individual are not in any position to dictate what governments and companies may or may not do or say. So your ‘assertions’ and ‘certainties’ are misplaced. Shipbuilding covers a wide range of vessels and is not confined to warships.… Read more »
Perhaps a handful of .50cal. to arm the snp’s new green ferries?😏
As the SNP dream is now a busted flush what is there to discuss? Was never going to happen anyway. Imagine the current incompetence being allowed to run a country on an international level. That this is even still being discussed shows a lack of decent alternative subjects.
RN Warships should never have been sent north of the border to Scotland while the SNP are in power and they keep on going on about independence, if they do gain independence it’s the Tax payers who will foot the bill to upgrade a shipyard in England but the government don’t give a #### since it’s not their money that will be spent.
Test comment
There’s a shipyard in Sunderland that has been “mothballed” for years. It’s reopening would bring a much needed boost to a city that was once known as the biggest shipbuilding town in the world.
The law won’t be changed, if Scotland does gain Independence there’d be no UK MOD jobs either in shipbuilding or shiprepair on Caledonian soil & I suspect none in other military related industries either. Of course that doesn’t mean that an independent Scotland would fail financially but for the wearers of the rose tinted spectacles it should be a warning.
They say collaborate with other nations, but then exclude an independent Scotland! Blatant hypocrisy. Shipbuilding is not threatened by independence as at worst it means no Royal Navy warships. The usual disinformation, exagerration and treating the wider public as fools. If these politicians, and their mouthpieces actually stopped to think about what they utter they would realise how stupid they sound.
They start off with some premise then go off in one direction and fail to consider all the others.