MBDA and PGZ have unveiled a Tank Destroyer armed with the Brimstone precision strike missile.
According to a release, PGZ Companies and MBDA also signed a statement of co-operation at MSPO to confirm readiness to co-operate on offering this solution to Poland and export markets.
Sebastian Chwałek, Deputy CEO of PGZ, said:
“We are growing our co-operation with MBDA into new areas. We have agreed on the ways of offering those solutions in export markets. By combining our competences with the experience of our British partners, we are able to achieve a lot and deliver the most modern solutions to both Polish and allied armed forces.”
Adrian Monks, MBDA Sales Director in Poland, said:
“Pairing the combat-proven MBDA Brimstone missile with the diverse range of current and future Polish platforms provides the ability to deliver rapid military capability for Poland and for wider markets, whilst strengthening our co-operation with PGZ Group on missiles.”
The development comes in response to Poland’s requirement for a Tank Destroyer able to counter massed armour formations. With its long-range, all-weather performance, ability to defeat active protection systems (APS), salvo-firing and moving target capability, Brimstone is uniquely able to meet this challenge.
The system is reportedly capable of engaging line-of-sight and non-line-of-sight targets, with a choice of engagement modes using digital targeting data provided over standard secure military networks fully interoperable with NATO.
Is that thing really packing 32 missiles? Lord almighty, a company or two of those things would definitely make Russia think twice about an armoured offensive
24, looks like the missing section is for the driver to get in and out. There is a version with 2 box launchers on the back.
Polish companies showcased three different carriers for Brimstones, one with 3×8 containers is the most, if rightly remember;)))
What would be really cool, is if multiple dismounted teams could reach request for from a platoon of these.
Have a dozen troops with targeting equipment, mark 16 targets and fire a salvo of 16, destroying a lot of them.
Then fire again at the remaining targets.
Also, they should use that new BAE (I think) box-of-missiles.
It was designed to be bolted to any ship and be reloaded by mk41 vls canisters, the short point defence type.
Hell, then you could fire anything from it, CAMM, brimstone, all sorts of things.
Launch one shot drones each armed with 2 SDB2 glide bombs.
You don’t need to mark the targets with Brimstone.
The MMW seeker does it all for you. All you would need is a target box, say a grid square, and just tell them to head there. After that they pick off the armoured target in order of priority themselves.
Given Russian behaviour over the past few years it’s understandable that Poland would want such a capability.
Love this concept, now to get it on our Boxers and to make a tracked version of Boxer so we can really start standardising the modules.
Scrap Warrior and Challenger Lifex and lets get new kit like this.
This is the sort of innovative equipment that would destroy an armoured offensive in its tracks when added to a balanced force mix.
It would be a positive addition to our own inventory, offsetting the small numbers of Challenger 2’s available.
You can certainly see why a country like Poland
(perhaps the Baltic States too) would find these an extremely useful asset to have.
Exactly, if they (an enemy) saw Poland as a soft touch, this would make them think again and restore equilibrium. Isn’t that kind of what we did in the cold War. But of course, we aren’t in one now are we if you believe our lovvies in Parliament!
Russia wouldn’t invade Poland lol! Even if Poland was weak!
Russia won’t invade Poland! More chance of America banning fire arms. But the older polish population have been bent over and screwed by Russia so I can see why they are concerned, but Russia won’t invade any sovereign nation they can’t afford it for starters!. Ukraine and Crimea are different! The Russians believe that’s Russian. And the majority Russian population there wanted to stay Russian. Even if it’s illegal and Ukrainian disagrees.
As of today they won’t. All changes when Far East kicks off…
Still can’t beat Howie 155mm;)))
Thinking out of the box – literally.
Nice to think that our inept and cowardly European Allies can come up with something that meets approval on this website!
Poland is one of those countries which understand the danger, with Russia on the border and a history of invasion and being let down by the rest of Europe.I have many Polish colleagues at the moment , have worked with Polish fellas in the job and afterwards in the sand pit, and all have a wilko attitude in regard to defending Poland and being in NATO. Poland is the tip of the spear! Look at the Polish procurments over the last 5 years and you will see how they think. However, yes, most other European NATO countries do nothing but pay lil service to collective defence and defence in general.
Good point.
Spot on.
Mate, MBDA are savage.
They’ve come up with some seriously deadly missiles.
They specc’d a concept that was a ramjet powered 200km Mach 5 stealth cruise missile, which, in addition to its own warhead, launches two rocket propelled outriders with ECM functionality in top of THEIR own warheads…
That was the Perseus concept. It was nothing but CGI.
The actual supersonic cruise they’re designing for FCASW doesn’t have the effectors (and doesn’t appear to be hypersonic).
Looks like Poland is going in for Camm and Brimstone. Hopefully they put in a good order and the UK gets some export work out of it.
Let’s sell them new typhoons instead of them buying second hand F16s. The F16s are far cheaper though.
That would be great but I don’t see anyone else buying the Typhoon now the F35 price has dropped below it. Any further Saudi sales seem to be dead in the water too so after the Kuwait and Qatar deliveries are complete I think it will be end of the line unless the UK or Germany throws in a late order.
Actually I think the Saudi order will go ahead. Doesn’t appear they’ll be getting F-35A any time soon, so they might not have that much choice. The MoU for 48 has been signed in 2018 and these things always take time.
I’d love for the RAF to put in another 24 order for FGR.4’s to keep the production line active to link up with Tempest a bit but I can’t see there being any space in the EP unless there is a significant uplift.
BAE keeps touting to Malaysia, but I think that’s a lost cause…but they have had some issues with their Russian gear recently…
I do hope so too. But if, then maybe few first dozens will be done here. Poles are pushing, rightly, for full tech transfer.
The great thing about this system is it can be easily integrated onto a variety of base vehicles. If we don’t upgrade Warrior, maybe we could simply stick some of these box launchers on a couple of dozen for a huge uplift in capability.
I’ve often thought this, once an armoured vehicle becomes too vulnerable for the front line stuff, simply reuse the chassis and integrate artillery guns or long range precision fire power. Cheap way to maintain a good level of heavy firepower rather than buying new state of the art vehicles when they will just sit at the back and fire away from immediate danger.
Yep, this makes total sense. Recycling and repurposing hardware would be far cheaper than building new hardware.
Hell Arm all Ajax and warriors with just one of these 8 launchers lol, heck even MBTs.
Get a version of this on boxer, make a tracked version of boxer and then push comes to shove we can put a couple of these on the carriers.
What’s not to like, bet they are cheaper than our Warrior and Challenger upgrades as well
One of the MBDA pictures shows a BMP with two box launchers fitted on the rear. You certainly don’t want to be in a BMP when bullets start flying, as it has armour like tissue paper. Using it as a missile carrier is a very good idea, as it can stay well behind the contact zone, but offers a cheap reliable chassis.
According to Wikipedia, 1 brimstone missle costs $263000 so if it can really carry 32, that’s almost $8.5m per vehicle without even accounting for the cost of the vehicle. Doubt Poland could afford this. Would also make it a prime target.
I was wondering if a navalised version of this might be possible. Stick a couple on top of the hangers? Big uplift in firepower for not much money. Anyone know the range of brimstone launched from one of these?
I would have thought the biggest issue with a naval variant is tying it into the command and control system so it’s embedded with the sensor suite.
You could have it stand alone but that’s just a PITA to manage and probably inhibits it’s effectiveness.
I assume the blueprint for naval integration would not be too dissimilar to typhoons who operate ASRAAM and Brimstone. If type 23 / 26 and 31 all have Asraam based CAMM then it should be relatively simple to integrate Brimstone, with a +/- 40km range, for sea launch. Similar for onshore integration…. And especially as i understand it… you nominate a target box and let the missile find the target in the box.
If uk isnt prepared to back its own technology then dont expect exports to flood through
Pete
There is a naval version of Brimestone called Sea Spear. This has successfully been tested on fast inflatable boats. The problem for Brimestone/Sea Spear is that the Navy have Martlet and Sea Venom. Brimestone kind of fits between these two missiles in range and capability. The Sea Spear can be fully integrated with the ships system as its uses similar software protocols with Sea Ceptor.
Aware of Sea Spear (as opposed to Spear 3). Standalone Concept is proven. My main observation is sea spear / brimstone is a class above sea venom in terms of range and quantum leaps ahead of Martlet in termd if both range snd impact.
The technology exists, integration would be straight forward, the threat (gulf) is real snd brimstone would allow a T23 T31 to provide fast response over an 80km circumference.
P
Seavenom also does not appear to be box launched, helicopter only. I would think a couple of large box launchers contains both brimstone and spear 3 would be a great way of firing multiple missiles at a target at reasonable range with a fairly high chance of a successful hit.
Sea Venom is canister launched as well. MBDA built the canisters first to make sure the missile worked before fitting them to helicopter test aircraft.
The Sea Venom actually has a longer range than Brimestone, the Wiki page is incorrect. The main difference between the two is that Brimestone is supersonic whilst Sea Venom is subsonic.
If Sea venom has a longer range fantastic but the MBDA fact sheet simpmy states ±20km class.
BRIMSTONE 2 is quoted by same manufacturer as 60km+ jet launched and 40km+ helo launched. I assume naval launch would be similsr to Helo.
If Sea Venom can be integrated for merlin and vessel launch then navy would be better protected and capable. Otherwise were simply hoping johnny bad guy does the right thing and attack the assets that can deal with him.
P
It does make sense to have a layered capability on the ship, starting with Martlet, Sea Venom, then NSM if it gets chosen, so a measured response can be used against varying threats.
I have seen different range specs for both Sea Venom and Brimestone 2 by the manufacturer, surely theyshould knows what they’re making, but why do they use different range specs?
If Brimestone does have a longer range, the Sea Spear version would be really handy. However, the Merlin needs to have at least Martlet and Sea Venom integrated beside just torpedoes. There definitely needs to be some form of medium weight missile added to the ship either Sea Spear or Sea Venom, this is because a helicopter cannot be used 24/7 and is highly dependent on the weather
Mmm. They seem nice but you’ve got to wonder about first, cost (Brimstone is expensive which by definition limits utility). The army already has Javelin so there is a case for that to be on a vehicle before buying a new toy. Secondly, what are possible enemy countermeasures to it.
I also notice some advocating dumping the Chally upgrade. Most unwise. Tanks are still needed and studies show they reduce your infantry casualties etc. Tanks are still versatile and as a personal preference Chally’s HESH is still a very useful round (anti infantry and good for doing bad things to urban and hardened structures). One should also remember that although tanks engage other tanks this is often not the case (aka WW2 Britsh tank casualties from enemy AT guns and assault guns etc).
Totally agree, we need an upgraded Chally 2 and not in the piecemeal numbers they have been talking about. The tank is still the best asset for dominating ground either for defence or offence. It still has a massive physiological effect on friendly and opposition troops.
The chassis on the Chally is still good with its hydro-pneumatic suspension just needs a better engine and gearbox. The turret could do with improvements, should we go to the 130mm or keep the 120mm, but up the firing pressure with new propellent? If the tank was fitted with the Iron Fist system, firstly it would greatly improve its chances against ATGM, but also increase its situational awareness. The system uses an x band radar to search for threats. Much like the Trophy system fitted to a Merkava, the turret can be automatically slewed towards the threat, it can also record where the firing point was.
I know HESH is a good round, however, it has fallen behind. Especially when you compare it to the programmable multi-purpose HE rounds of today. So if they decide to keep the rifled gun, more ammo research is required to keep pace with competitors.
What on earth is a ‘Chally’?
What on earth is a ‘Chally’?
Not just British. On the Russian front too the Germans were the masters of luring mass tank formations onto their line of 88’s, Stugs, and other Jagdpanzers.
Yes, Rommel’s Africa Corps did the same against the 8th Army in North Africa. It was one of Rommel’s favourite tactics against the numerically superior commonwealth forces.
At least at Medenine we got our own back somewhat! Played the Desert Fox at his own game.
Impressive.
Reminds me of the old concept of 24 Air Mobile Brigade in the Cold War. ( I think it was 24 AM? ) which morphed with 5 Airborne into the current 16AA in 98 time frame.
That Brigades Battalions were furnished with many, many more Milan FT than in a standard Battalion, to be heli’d in and put down in the path of the Soviet Tank Army breakthrough.
Modern tech is so impressive.
Yes mate 24 Airmobiles concept was to deploy to Germany on mobilization and using Lynx and early versions of 4 wheeled light strike vehicles, drop as many Milan teams in front of the main Soviet Tank Army, and hit them, then extract quickly to new firing positions. If memory serves me a Battalion was issued with 24 firing posts (but could have been 48, I’m sure some other posters will put me straight lol)
Hi mate.
Funnily enough those were the numbers I too recall, though I may be wrong.
A Light Role Infantry Battalion had 6.
A Mechanized Battalion 24.
And the Battalions in 24 AM had 48.
A big punch, depended on available helis though to move quickly.
What chassis have they used in that photo?
What is stopping the UK putting that sort of set up on old Scimitar Spartan vehicles as they leave service?
I don’t know much about vehicle and weapon systems integration but I’d wonder if putting Javelin on Scimitar Spartan would be possible (at least the Army already has it). A sort of new- age Swingfire. Brimstone costs at least £100k a shot (and possibly up to £175k with reaseach costs included). So for a 24 missile loadout you are talking BIG money.
The Army have been discussing a new version of a dedicated anti tank missile carrier armed with non-line of sight missiles. There have been a number of missiles mentioned for the system ranging from Brimestone to the Israeli NLOS. There have also been a number of different vehicles banded about ranging from a Foxhound derivative, FV432, an Ajax chassis and Boxer.
With DSEI this week and MBDA doing a number of big press releases, could their be something on the cards. If I was a betting man, I’d say strike brigade has the most urgent requirement with a Boxer module. The good thing with either Brimestone or NLOS missiles is that they can target helicopters and slower flying UAVs so this would boost the capability of the strike brigade with a multi-purpose missile system.
Looks like they reused the drive train from the BWP-2000 IFV which got cancelled in the late 1990s. Hull looks different though..
I believe a Javelin has been trialled on the turret for the Warrior (or could have been Ajax) although only as a singletons missile. The strike Brigade would be the units to require a bit of ATGW to increase fire power and punch. While I don’t agree with the strike Brigades in their current form, any effort at increasing fighting power has got to be seen as a good thing. Although I do hope the whole concept of mixing wheels and tracks, pretending a recce vehicle is a light tank, having limited dedicated logisitc/Sig units, bugger all Arty aside from the good old 105mm and using 432s well past their sell by date, is booted into the long grass.
Boxer is the way forward, for the Strike Brigades. Get a number of exyra modules, to include Arty, Mortar carrier, AD and ATGW, and the concept could work. However we all know MOD won’t bother and we will muddle along, with neither the best of light role strike or the best of heavy armour, just a fudge to both.
Now we’re talking. An all Boxer Brigade, with all the variants, with the Ajax Armoured Recc Regiments returned to the Armoured Brigades.
Where they should be Daniele!
Exactly. I don’t understand why General Carter thought it a good idea. The Armoured brigades will now be bereft of a dedicated recc formation, save the integral recc platoons in the Armoured regiment and Warrior battalions.
I hope there will be another U Turn.
Nothing I have read on the subject of Strike Brigades impresses. Even the name is crap. What are they striking? And with what? Towed Light guns, a battery of Starstreak LMM, and battalions with basic Boxer variants with the firepower in Ajax mascarading as light Tanks in “Medium Armour” regiments.
As mentioned before I don’t believe the RLC has the HET assets to move them.
Yes Daniele you are correct, the HETs in service number about 90 I believe, and are always in demand by NATO forces, and I think about a dozen are leased by the American formations in Europe long term. Carter must have been concerned about his pension and earning a few quid on the speaking circuit, as while the Strike concept is sound, we have just about zero, zilch, nil, none of the correct equipment in service, none of the OS assets, nor the spare logistic formations equipped to support .
Yet again we are fitting equipment to the role, not the role dictating the equipment. I too hope for a number of u turns on the strike Brigades. The French have a decent number of light strike Brigades, correctly equipped and trained, and even they struggled in Mali, against a threat, which, while dangerous, was certainly not peer on peer level.
The concept of operations for UK strike Brigades is chuff, have a look Daniele, look at the sub unit formations, look at the distances involved, look at the logisitcs and support requirments, totally unrealistic even against “technical” type armed adversaries, never mind a decently equipped and trained enemy. A sad waste of time, money and manpower which could lead to us losing the edge and losing decent people!
Cheers mate. I guess they should be called Mechanized Brigades, which is what they are, and abandon the Strike Concept of them operating independently.
I had also read, not sure how true it is, that one of them is to be the recc formation for our deployable Division, with the 2 Armoured Brigades, forming the standard 3 brigade formation.
Hi. Carrier in photo is K9PL. Polonized korean K9 (Thunder, howitzer). HSW bought full license and made its own howitzer with license on AS90 turret;))) there was a lot different carriages presented at expo, for tank destroyer program for polish forces.
How does Brimstone defeat an APS?