The government has defended its support for the Eurofighter Typhoon as MPs pressed for a fresh order of the jets for the Royal Air Force, during defence questions in the House of Commons.
The Labour MP for Hyndburn, Sarah Smith, raised the tens of thousands of jobs in Lancashire that depend on fast jet production, telling the House that Britain needed new jets and had to maintain the skills required to build the next generation. She asked the government to commit to ordering British-made Typhoons for the RAF to protect those jobs and preserve the associated skills.
Defence Minister Luke Pollard, who holds the readiness and industry brief, said the government was proud to support the Typhoon and listed the steps it had taken. He pointed to a £500 million upgrade for the aircraft, including a new radar, and to the government’s role in securing the export of 20 Typhoons to Turkey.
“We are continuing to support the brilliant jobs in Typhoon production at Warton and Samlesbury and across the United Kingdom, and we are expanding into more autonomous craft as well, supporting the Typhoon for many years to come,” he said.
Pollard did not commit to a new RAF order in his reply. The Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, noted afterwards that the House was still looking forward to the next order.
The Typhoon is assembled in the UK at BAE Systems’ sites at Warton and Samlesbury in Lancashire, where the company carries out final assembly and builds major sections of the aircraft for both domestic and export customers. The wider programme is a four-nation European venture involving the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain, and the Lancashire workforce has been a recurring focus of concern as the RAF’s existing orders are completed and the production line looks toward future work.
The export deal Pollard referred to is part of an agreement under which Turkey is to receive Typhoons, a sale that helps sustain production beyond domestic requirements.
“We are continuing to support the brilliant jobs in Typhoon production at Warton and Samlesbury and across the United Kingdom, and we are expanding into more autonomous craft as well, supporting the Typhoon for many years to come,” he said.”
Is that it? Stating the obvious, throwing in “many years to come ” then mentions “autonomous craft”
What autonomous craft? And what has that to do with the lack of Typhoon?
What is the point of Pollard if he cannot answer questions clearly and give reasons as to why the RAF is not getting another order? We know why, F35 and GCAP. Because the military is not given enough funds despite the rhetoric of the likes of Pollard.
And just as bad, MPs remain utterly clueless for the most part so do not hold the government by the balls with the vagueness of their questioning, or are only asking because they have a vested interest, as usual, a local MP. All correct and good that she asks about her constituents jobs, but clearly, the fact that the RAF has too few assets is not on her radar at all.
Thus, nothing changes.
As you say Sarah Smith MP couldn’t give a rats arse if the RAF don’t have enough Typhoons to defend and project. She just wants her constituents to re-elect her. She doesn’t care if its Typhoons or Morris Minors being built on her patch.
Waiting for the new capability gap between Typhoon and GCAP. Not a pretty sight. In all honesty we need them working together as there simply will not be enough of the latter to compensate even in the unlikely event of it hitting its schedules which the delayed DIP isn’t helping according to Japan and Italy at least. Fact is keeping old Typhoons (not exactly cheap to operate) in service into the 40s will be more expensive than ordering some new ones but of course that as usual is another Govt’s problem.
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Agree, imagine that, an MP trying to do the best for he constituency by criticising her own party and not lining her own pockets.
Ridiculous behaviour
😂
There is no point to Pollard. He is, and always has been, a Labour luvvie who will say anything to keep his job.
Yeah but his Sister was brilliant in Hi De Hi. 😎
The reason why the Typhoon isn’t getting anymore orders is because its obsolescent and more expensive than the F35. They can’t say the truth without upsetting armchair experts and their union paymasters.
It has one enormous advantage, it has had most UK manufactured weapons integrated already. How many do the UK F35s offer now and in the next 5 or more likely 10 years?
That’s magically going to change it’s out of service date how?
Nope. It had AMRAAM/ASRAAM when it entered service. 1000lb Paveway 2 came in 2008. StormShadow, Paveway 4 and Brimstone came post 2018 under project Centurion. 15+ years after first entering service.
I do t see how Typhhon is ‘out of date’ for some roles.
We have an unhealthy obsession with everything being perfect.
Hi-Lo mass is required in war and Typhoon can still provide that with the help of F35.
The thing with Typhoon is that it is sovereign so if we want to change something we can just do it.
Unfortunately your right on all counts, also any new orders from today won’t be ready until mid 2030’s around the same time GCAP is supposed to be ready.
Except where possible other export customers are ditching the F-35 for rather good reasons especially now that we can see that Iran seems capable of targeting them and of course they still have little to no offensive weaponry, which at least the Typhoon does. As the US relies heavily on so called ‘obsolete’ aircraft for the bulk of its air fleet and indeed its latest carrier relies 100% upon them I really don’t take that argument other than a general acceptance that air power generally is declining in effectiveness, even Reapers are being shot out of the sky almost daily by an anti aircraft system that apparently according to Hegseth doesn’t any longer exist. If price is such a problem then perhaps we should buy Gripens, cheap, very effective and certainly almost certainly capable of targeting F-35s at considerable range by all accounts. Oh and can operate a damn sight more weaponry at a fraction of the cost of an F-35 and twice as reliable.
You are correct when you say that F35 is cheaper to buy than Typhoon, although for the F35B the gap is not so great. However, I have seen it reported that the F35 cost 50k per hour to fly while the Typhoon costs 30k. So it is likely that the F35 is far more expensive through life.
Cheers CR
Mate, we have said it often enough about politicians, self interest, corrupt and liars to boot. We need another Cromwell to drain the swamp. They are nothing but fetid pondlife.
👍
I’ll second that 👍
RAF scrapped 24 T1 Typhoons without replacement – it has a need for them to be replaced
The F35 is cheaper and more capable.
Nope. We don’t need Stealth Fighters to defend Falklands, so we can order the replacements for the 40, yes, 40 retired Tranche 1s.
The RAF could use some aircraft to take the role as the Bomb or Missile truck that draws enemy attention as the F-35Bs “sneak” through the lines, or as far as their Combat Radius can go, which the B variant is shortest of the lot.
And of course, Combat Air Patrol over safe skies, you don’t need stealth and you might want more weapons and staying power weapons wise.
So your idea that the taxpayers fund the purchase of a more expensive, less capable aircraft, with an out service date in 15 years time because we dont need the cheaper, more capable aircraft that has an out of service date of 2060. Are you in fact Rachel Reeves?
If you buy some nice shiny typhoons the out of service date will be pushed back. What’s more it’s likely to be pushed back anyway due to the slow progress of Tempest. Better to have a tranche of new planes rather than do a type 23 on us. Different is old ships leak, old shabby planes fall out of the sky. Last but not least, I like the F35 (think we have the wrong version but that is another story), but having a stealthy plane is not much use if you can’t put any bombs on it. We are pretty limited on how it can be utilized so cheaper in this case might not be better.
No they wont. The Typhoon only has a reduced radar cross section from the front. A generation 4.5 aircraft has already been shot down by a Chinese radar guided missile. By 2040 the likely adversary will have aircraft with an all round smaller radar cross section. You want to deliberately put RAF pilots live in danger based on a fantasy. The F35 can carry huge numbers of American made weapons now. Aircraft become obsolete over time no matter how many you buy.
what are you tripping on. The UK is not going to fight China, it’s way way too far without even going into how any Eurpean force could sustain operations that far for any extended period of time. If (big if) US and China ever go to war, Europe will support with sanctions and that is it.
the most credible and biggest threat to the UK is Russia. We see this on weekly basis in waters aeound the UK, not to mention active hybrid warfare. To face Russia, Typhoon is more than capable vs any Russian aircraft it may encounter, not only that but with Storm Shadow, Speae, etc… can strike targets inside Russia. This capability will further increase with the new upgrades on Typhoon as well as new weapons like Stratus Lo and RS coming into service in 2030s. Throw in some loyal wingman drones and Typhoon can be very usefull and capable for many years to come vs any real threat to the UK (not some fantasy conflict in the Pacific)
FYI India may have lost a fighter, but Pakistan lost the war.
Furthermore we have no reliable info on any losses and many conflicting stories.
The most credible yet unconfirmed story is that one Rafale was lost close to an Indian Air Force base. Even less reliable info on how it may have been lost. Being close to an airbase it could suggest a bird strike, friendly fire certainly more credible than a Pakistan jet shooting beyond the planes sensors and their export missile range. Also was it a J10, a JF17 or an F16 that carried out the strike? even Pakistani’s can’t agree on that. And an old propeler SAAB AWACS aircraft is certainly not certified to establish a two way link to a chinese missile giving mid course corrections. SAAB never carried out such an integration. And after the day one propaganda war, it seems Pakistan was in any position to inflict any damage to India in the following days.
Peculiar that on day one when Pakistan was claiming so many victories because of its superior weaponry, yet after day one when India changed its rules of engagement (ie no longer just targetting terrorist camps but weapons free vs Pakistan military assets), Pakistan was completely unable to replicate the deeds.
Maybe in the future we will learnwhat truly happened but right now it’s just speculation and no hard facts.
The only facts are that
– India spanked Pakistan, who had to plead for an end to the conflict as its bases and planes were being destroyed
– India is quite happy with Rafale and has new orders of 26 Rafale for its Navy and another 114 for its Air Force. Surely if Rafale was so bad as Pakistan and Chinese claims pretend, India would have not ordered more and would have purchased an alternative aircraft such SU57, F35, Typhoon, Gripen,etc…
oh and furthermore an “invisble” F35 was hit by Iranian AA, but luckily limped back to base.
moral of the story no military plane, ship or vehicle is invincible despite what some believe.
shit happens in war.
I’m afraid I’d have to disagree.
If we got in a shooting war with China, then the forces we’d send would be what? Our expeditionary forces on our carriers- the F-35Bs. There are no suitable staging bases for us to utilise our Typhoons in a hypothetical Pacific-theatre war.
But in the ME, Med, Europe? The most likely aggressor is going to be Russia, or a player using Russian gear. Based upon everything that we see in conflicts in those theatres at the moment, Typhoon looks set to be competitive for the next couple of decades.
So I see absolutely no reason why we wouldn’t want to order new airframes- especially if it spools up/keeps manufacturing at a suitable level for GCAP. It’s also worth bearing in mind another couple of things:
The high costs associated with sustaining the Typhoon fleet apparently included the T1 airframes, which are different enough from the T2s and T3s that the RAF were needing to maintain different parts stores. The T2s and T3s under project Centurion massively reduced their maintenance requirements, and are a lot more reliable. So, with the retirement of the T1s, it will be interesting to see what the new cost per flight hour (to compare apples with apples) is- I would optimistically think it’s come down a fair way. Any new orders would benefit from these lower costs. Let’s also remember that maintenance costs for F-35 are higher than originally pitched, and we haven’t yet factored in the additional capital costs of getting all our aircraft to TR-3 and Blk IV status into the fly-away price- because we don’t know what they are. That could bring them into a much higher cost bracket than they are currently.
Finally, it’s worth noting that the USAF are also doubling down on their 4.5 Gen aircraft, with new orders for F-15EX that are expected to serve alongside both F-35 and their 6th Gen F-47. So it’s not just us armchair air marshals on here who think it’d be a good idea…!
Yup, and the dependance on the US? The restrictions they can place on its use, Lockheed and it failures?
Pull my other leg, its got bells on.
So instead you want German restrictions instead.
Better than the Orange Idiot eh?
What German restrictions prevents the UK from buying Typhoons or how they are utilized? German restrictions are solely on who we can sell them to are they not? Therefore it won’t effect on any purchase we make.
And how is that different from the F35 ?
Germany can only block export sales, which they lifted by the way. But Germany cannot stop the UK from using its planes in any way it chooses.
Wereas the US can ground the entire F35 fleet via a simple network update with their ITAR regulations.
The funniest thing I have read today.
Typhoon can carry Meteor, Storm Shadow, etc…(not the F35) and largely capable vs potential adversaries, namely Russia
Name one US weapon that the F35 can’t carry?
that is irrelevant, we are talking about RAF F35
furthermore being totally reliant on US is not a sound strategy, esp.when it comes to Russia.
As a reminder, it is the US that stopped aid to Ukraine, that lifted sanctions on Russia and even voted against a UN resolution to condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine! It’s not just Trump, Vance is even more critical of Europe, specifically the UK, and is currently the front runner for the 2028 US presidential election.
You mean its inconvenient that the F35 can carry 90% of US weapons because you are desperately trying to justify buying an older, more expensive, less capable aircraft
RAF F35 only carry AMRAAM, ASRAAM and GBU, they don’t carry any other weapon. And when UK needed to do strikes is Yemen or protect Qatar from drones, etc… the RAF deployed Typhoon not the F35.
Exactly anyone who did the remotest research would understand the ludicrousness of the argument. The F-35 relies on competency that is only controlled in effect by the US. Without it it’s barely 4th Gen capable while the Typhoon when it belatedly gets its new radar (that’s another story) may well as an overall airframe be more useful (depending on events with LM let alone the US Govt) than the F-35 for much strike work into the thirties. In reality we need both in our armoury, the F-35 is presently a one trick pony with only half a trick and I fear will never be what was promised and that’s before its severe lack of range and capacity that the Americans are already seeing make it fundamentally yesterdays solution to tomorrows war in reality and are scran ling to bring a bigger more capable airframe to the party… just as we are. The limitations of the B version on its airframe and engine have seriously compromised the whole platform which looked manageable when developing it 10 to 15 years ago maybe but look simple awful looking to the 2030s and beyond. It should never be the bulk of our airforce numbers.
🤣🤣
I just put this into Google AI:
‘I’m triggered by Trump so write me a 1,000 word essay on how the F 35 is shit.’
=
‘Exactly anyone who did the remotest research would understand the ludicrousness of the argument. The F-35 relies on competency that is only controlled in effect by the US. Without it it’s barely 4th Gen capable while the Typhoon when it belatedly gets its new radar (that’s another story) may well as an overall airframe be more useful (depending on events with LM let alone the US Govt) than the F-35 for much strike work into the thirties. In reality we need both in our armoury, the F-35 is presently a one trick pony with only half a trick and I fear will never be what was promised and that’s before its severe lack of range and capacity that the Americans are already seeing make it fundamentally yesterdays solution to tomorrows war in reality and are scran ling to bring a bigger more capable airframe to the party… just as we are. The limitations of the B version on its airframe and engine have seriously compromised the whole platform which looked manageable when developing it 10 to 15 years ago maybe but look simple awful looking to the 2030s and beyond. It should never be the bulk of our airforce numbers.‘
maybe read US government agencies own GAO and DOT&E long reports with all the current issues. they are many well documented pages and not just a 1000 words.
Not going to read any of that, I’m not that bored.
Why does ‘Trump’ trigger ‘you people?’
In fairness, I normally read your comments and think there’s objectivity there. But you must be another one with an agenda 🇫🇷
It simply isn’t and won’t be for at least 5 years. If we don’t have Typhoons we won’t have virtually any serious defence or attack capabilities till then. It’s only cheaper through contrived and skewed LM Govt stoked costing regimes and has to have one serious extremely costly update to actually become truly useful and in RAF service has an appalling maintenance record which will get worse as they age due to complexity around an archaic software base that’s a pig to update. Then of course we are totally reliant upon a dodgy US Govt with a demented President (just check his early hours memes claiming he has a superb body for example) with a good chance of even worse to come in the thirties which could easily mean we have no access to this ‘wonder jet’ at all if they so decide.
I think you have been reading too much of the Telegraph which seems to think the likes of its Racing correspondent can do defence articles, like why did we not keep the Harrier instead of the Tornado because the Tornado was a death trap at low level, as if the Harrier was any better in a strike role.
Cheaper? in what parallel universe are you living? A jet that can’t or won’t integrate UK weapons and and now allegedly cant produce a a block 4 version of the F35B? Lets disregard corrosion, reliability and availability issues lack of Uk work share etc and the fact that we destroy our own weapons and export infrastructure
At $38000 min, per hour, to opperate?
It should unscrap them. T1 rebuilds are the only way the RAF is getting more planes before 2030.
If we placed an order now, we wouldn’t receive the jets until the early 2030s. Typhoon is a great aircraft today, but by the time they’re delivered and have another 20 to 30 years of service ahead of them, are we really going to want to be relying on them into the 2050s and 2060s? I don’t think so.
The plan was to have the 27 F-35s delivered by 2033, but the longer this DIP nonsense drags on…
Then there’s GCAP to consider.
#ThatPlaneHasFlown
And its more expensive and less capable than the F35, which will be flying into the 2050s
But it works, it is sustainable and in regular action. The UK F35B fleet has shockingly low availability and has rarely been used in combat missions.
For air defence, Typhoon will remain effective for years.
Hear, hear… the F35 is an American a Boondoggle that is now being paid for by the rest of the world.
The second funniest.
That’s another thing mate.
We might be about to commit ( or not ) 12 billion to GCAP to develop it, costing that amount in kit for other things, as the big ticket items and industry are prioritised over all else.
All we hear about is Drones?
So, I ask, why GCAP? I don’t want to know about “think of the industrial benefits, think of the jobs, I’m talking purely on military capabilities and needs.
Clearly, Drones are NOT the be all and end all. Otherwise, why GCAP? Build a long range Drone, enabled by AI.
Good question. In part the answer is that a large stealthy airframe that does not rely on 5th generation high maintenance stealth coatings, will provide both air superiority and long range strike. One report suggests a combat radius on internal fuel of 1000 miles and the ability to cross the Atlantic without air to air refuelling.
Yes, I’d read she’s going to be a big girl.
Or even as a mother for Drones?
‘All we hear about is drones?’
Indeed, And of course the ‘game’ has changed. But let’s play a hypothetical for a second. Imagine nuclear weapons weren’t part of the equation and NATO entered the war.
What would we do to defeat Russia? Would we get to the front lines and just exchange drones? No. We’d spend billions in the first few days on SEAD/DEAD, achieve air superiority over eastern Ukraine, and then manoeuvre warfare would make a comeback.
People here say all the time that tanks, helicopters, etc are too vulnerable in the ‘drone age’… but everything is vulnerable without air superiority. That’s why it’s such a major part of NATO spending and doctrine.
So, to summarise (I’m on holiday and a little drunk), Russia probably has more to learn from NATO (about achieving air superiority) than NATO has to learn from this war.
EXACTLY.
Yeah because fighting a 4 year long attrition war is just how the UK should fight. The obsession over cost per unit ignores cost per effect. The Ukrainians have turned things around not by drone but by expensive cruise missiles hitting Russian logistics 100s of miles behind lines. Pushing medium range SAMs back to guard logistics has enabled the Ukrainians to strike further behind Russian lines with air launched gilde bombs. 500lb bombs destroy bridges, drones dont. Iranian drones have done limted damage compared to the expensive ballistic missiles
I think the drone talk allows the Govt to continue with the “leading edge” crap without actually spending any real money. Relatively small amounts of money is being spent of hybrid this and hybrid that, lots of talk and PR but what do we have to show for it? Outside of EW and Surveillance there really isn’t anything out there that adds to the RAF’s combat effectiveness.
Yeah, they got away with ‘10x lethality’ for a while. That’s now been replaced with ‘a million drones’. Soon to be a billion..
So far drones have been very affective at army and naval level but very in effective at combat aircraft level.
Manned fighters be nuclear submarines are probably a safe long term bet than armoured vehicles or large surface warships.
On paper the Typhoon is more expensive than F35A in initial procurement cost. Its similar in terms of cost per flight hour. It doesn’t have the versatility of F35B to be used on carriers. It is a 4.5 gen and not a 5th gen fighter. Its not a stealth fighter. We make 15% of each aircraft.
On paper its a no brainer. Why would you purchase anymore typhoons?
The reality? Its a British made so a lot more of each aircraft is assembled in the uk which supports jobs and the economy hence the cost to the government is subsidised by money coming back in through tax. It has British weapons, we are in charge of the time scale and the ability to add new weapons (such as the anti drone missiles added last month in response to the Iran War). Due to the demand of the F35 any new orders are unlikely to arrive any time soon! We may need them before they arrive. Keeping Wharton working and producing planes until GCAP starts production is essential to retain skills. Does Turkeys 20 Typoons fill this gap? Probably not. We dont want to loose that experience like we did in the ship building sector and then go through the expensive program of regenerating the skills.
But in truth there isnt much money for either as its being spent on drones and GCAP.
Fingers crossed for some good news from the DIP
I can see Warton being kept busy with Redhawk T-7 assembly.
There’s no magic wand that gives the Typhoon the radar cross section of the F35. The F35 comes with a built in EW suit and IRST. The Typhoon has pay extra for that.
I agree Ron, overall the F35 has better capability but there is definitely an argument for buying more Typoons. Not every mission requires stealth capability and not every mission requires electronic warfare.
words, statements, meetings, but bugger all else realt. State normal, duck, dodge and defect but do nothing. We good at that saying a lot with out really saying any thing.
Perhaps Sweden could give us some Gripens? 🙂
Very capable aircraft with low cost to buy. Easy to maintain and low cost per flight hour and a good weapons fit. Would work well in a Hi/Lo mixed fleet but i cant see a space or any money for them in the RAF.
In an era of standoff weapons how can the Typhoon be considered obsolete? Fancy discussing obsolete aircraft then start with the B-52. Compared to the F-35 the F-15 is considered obsolete too is it? Of course not. We must break the obsession with buying gold plated Yank tech is the same childish mind set that had people buying new I-phones every year. At the end of the day the debate is pointless when the government doesn’t order any more f-35s or Typhoons. We have to thank our lucky stars the peacetime attrition rate on Typhoons has been incredibly low but a run of bad luck would cost us dear with so few aircraft in service now a days.
I feel that RonS rather overstates the F-35s capabilities and undervalues Typhoon.
F35A may offer exactly what we would need in a peer war with say Russia, but in one role only: suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) by a combination of stealth and what could loosely be called electronic warfare. That is one of the main keys to establishing early NATO air superiority in a conflict.
But that full capability is years away. LM have only completed part of the long-delayed software upgrade TR3, and the key Block 4 capability ISD is still 7 or 8 years away and seems to slip further each year. It has a long list of technical shortcomings, which are regularly reported by congressional committees and the US accounting office. It has low availability on the flightline because of maintenance problems, stealth coating degradation and shortage of parts. The cost is rising steadily year by year. No doubt it may all come good in years to come, but right now, it is certainly not some wonder weapon.
Even when the wrinkles are eventually ironed out, its best role will remain SEAD and interdiction. It can serve in the air defence role, picking off hostiles at range before the latter can even see it on their radar. But if it’s fired its missiles off and there are still hostiles coming, then it is at a grave disadvantage – can’t run (too slow), can’t climb (too slow), and can’t fight (mediocre agility). It is not what we might call an air superiority aircraft.
This rush to the F-35A and stealth needs to be put in perspective. 4 and 4.5 generation aircraft like Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen and the latest F-16 will predominate in the air war for more than a decade and still be potent in two decades, if necessary upgrades are carried out. Germany is taking delivery of about 40 of the latest version of Typhoon,.Spain is buying 45, Turkey 20. India is buying a mass of the latest Rafales. 4.5 gen aircraft are extremely potent.
The RAF is upgrading its 40 tranche 3 Typhoons, with the ECRS AESA radar and a new suite of sensors. Replacing the older mechanically-operated radar with an electronically scanning array will increase radar range considerably and enable a Typhoon armed with Spear to shoot down a J10 or similar before it even knows its been detected. That will do us very well in the air defence role until GCAP comes into service. It is unfortunate though that the RAF cannot afford to upgrade the other 67 tranche 2 Typhoons to the advanced radar system. They will still be capable of knocking out most Russian aircraft heading our way, but for how much longer?
In an ideal world, we would order another 24 Typhoons, as our air defence strength is now minimalist, and increase our F-35A order to 72 to equip a SEAD/interdiction wing, in the hope that the F-35 problems are resolved by the time they start arriving.. But there is not the combat air budget for additional fast jets, whatever money is available has to fund GCAP development plus the 40 Typhoon upgrades, the 12 F-35A and the 15 F-35B on order. That’s it all used up.
We don’t have the money to do more, not primarily because of ‘useless’ politicians or the cash-strapped public finances, but largely because we spend 40% of the services procurement budget not on aircraft, warships or armoured vehicles but on having… an independent nuclear deterrent. I don’t know how anyone seriously thinks that a smsll-to-medium nation like the UK can afford what will be clise to £9bn a year on nuclear submarines and still field well-armed conventional forces of sufficient size. The DNE really is the elephant in the room in the defence equation.
If F-35 availability is only 50% shouldn’t we really be considering that it’s cost to buy is really doubled?
Remarkable – 2010 and Cameron was happy to cut an already thin RAF frontline. From 30 front line jet sqns in 1990 to 8.
Given the reduction in Typhoon numbers , they are unlikely to manage full sqn strength.