A written parliamentary question has revealed the number of senior officers currently serving across the British Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.
The figures, released on 7 November 2025 in response to a question by Conservative MP Neil O’Brien, show that as of 1 July 2025 there were 211 General Officers in the Army, 134 Admirals and Flag Officers in the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, and 126 Air Officers of Air Rank in the Royal Air Force.
The Ministry of Defence provided the following breakdown:
| Service | Number of senior officers (OF-6 to OF-10) |
|---|---|
| Royal Navy / Royal Marines | 134 |
| British Army | 211 |
| Royal Air Force | 126 |
The question, submitted to the Ministry of Defence on 29 October, also asked for the number of commanding officers of Royal Navy submarines and Royal Air Force frontline squadron commanders. Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Defence Louise Sandher-Jones provided the response, citing operational security as a reason for withholding those figures.
“The Ministry of Defence does not routinely disclose the trained strength of individual branches or specialisations as to do so could, or would be likely to, prejudice the security of the Armed Forces,” she said. “For this reason, I am withholding the answer to parts D and E of this question.”
This is a rare official snapshot of the UK’s senior command structure.
Although the titles of general, admiral and air marshal often evoke images of battlefield or fleet command, the majority of these senior officers serve in administrative, strategic or technical roles rather than direct command. This distribution is typical of modern armed forces, where senior ranks oversee procurement, training, capability development and coordination with NATO and allied partners.
That’s 3 Flag Officers for every warship, 1 Brigadier or above for every 340 soldiers & nearly as many Air Officers as fast jets.
And that is how a military is organised.
It’s more than just planes tanks and ships.
The US Army has 219 Generals and runs a force of 480,000 regulars and we have 211 Army Generals for a force of 73,000.
That is a damming statistic and it shows everything wrong with the British Army.
The US military is one of the fastest least efficient orginisations on planet earth and we have 5 times the number of senior officers.
What could they possibly be doing. We only have 6 brigades and two divisions.
That is 6* 1 stars and 2* 2 stars with a 3 star on top
The other 201 must be taken up by Ajax development 🤔
We have 211 1 * and above Jim, they’re not Generals.
Most are Brigadier rank. I think the Army actually have….3 or 4 actual Generals.
What could they be doing, you ask….you must have missed my list!
The Bdes you refer to, 12 20,7,16,4,7 you need to add many other Brigades to that, the Standing Joint Command, Regional Command, Training Command, staff posts at all headquarters, numerous posts at MoD and NATO, posts in tri service positions, posts in the GEN as Attaches, there are several 1 star in Washington alone, exchange positions.
It amuses me so many seem to think a military is only the bit that goes bang!
We had an article a few months ago similar with the same sort of comments, I spent about 2 hours listing the Army 1 star posts in the Army ALONE, never mind other areas of the military.
No one responded apart from Graham, who as an Officer in the Army himself understood where I’m coming from.
I’ll see if I can find it for you. 👍 😉
Well said mate.
I’m not at home to cut and paste the list I made, so have a few examples off my head to add to your 6 1*, 2 ** and the single *** on top which you said the British Army comprises.
ASOB.
11 Bde.
77 Bde.
1 Sig Bde.
8 Eng Bde
101 Bde
102 Bde
104 Bde
All with 1 *
GOC LONDIST is MG rank, a 1 star isn’t sufficient.
HQ ARRC is a Lt General.
Deputy SACEUR is a British General.
MG at ATRD.
Military Sec is MG, 1 * not sufficient.
1 * at APC, 1 * at LWC.
MG in charge of Space Command.
MG in Washington with BDLS.
Several MG in Main Building, some in DI, some in DE&S. Numerous 1 * in those areas too.
A MG is in charge of the DSF, given how its expanded, and the budget it contains.
A 1 * is PM(A)
All major HQs have staff officers often of Colonel up to Brigadier rank. CoS at same often 1 * rank.
Andover has dozens of 1 *.
Main Building has a directorate that liaise directly with the Royal Household, that is again MG rank, the cleaner isn’t sufficient, nor is a WO.
To please posters here, things like CEMAG, 2 Med Gp and others have been downgraded to Group status from Bde level, a Colonels command.
Various Corps Directors reduced to Colonel rank.
These positions cannot be entrusted to the tea lady, and if weren’t in uniform woukd be grade 3 MoD Cs rank same money.
Shall I dig some more out?
Remembered it, the DSS. Direct liaison with the Royal Household at MoD, the name was bugging me….
I’m also trying to work out if that 211 number includes AR Officers. Would Brigadier Brooks and 19 Brigade count towards the totals for example?
I do not know.
I’d assume they would. Not at home to check, but I recall theres something titled like Director or Commander Reserves 1 Div and 3 Div, both at 1 * too.
The MG as ACDS Reserve Forces and Cadets at MB was a reservist too at one time.
A good question.
Just to point out the numbers that are being bandied about here about US Generals are active duty only.
Found the list from last month that I knocked up over an evening, orgs within Army Command, so including JAC, SJC ( HC ), RC, and others where a post of at least 1 * and above is present.
Some might be out of date, as you know, stuff changes and is rebranded all the time, and It is hard to keep track of, and it is no doubt incomplete as how could I possibly know the full story being on the outside.
This is just from my Army file, not Tri Service posts or other areas of the MoD where Army officers will be present, so many, many more. I’ll do one of those at some point.
Any errors point them out, and gratefully received, I like to learn.
The Army is a lot more than “just 6 Brigades in two Divisions” as keeps getting repeated.
Headquarters 101 Operational Sustainment Brigade
Headquarters Army Special Operations Brigade
Headquarters 11th Brigade
Headquarters Home Command ( now SJC, C SJC is a *** Star Lt General, and rightly )
Chief of Staff, HC
Arms & Services
Army Personnel Services Group
Headquarters Regional Command
Chief of Staff Regional Command
Army HEADQUARTERS ( CGS )
Deputy Chief of the General Staff
Brigadier Army Staff
Chief of Staff Army HQ
Directorate Futures
Capability Directorate Combat
Capability Directorate Combat Support
Capability Directorate Information
Capability Directorate Combat Service Support
Directorate Strategy
Army Directorate Operations & Commitments.
Head of Reserves Strategy
Head of Strategy
Directorate Support
Directorate Equipment
Directorate Logistics.
Directorate Reserves ( Army )
Reserves Strategy.
Directorate Army Basing and Infrastructure
Hd Infrastructure
Directorate Information
Hd Capability Strategic Development
Hd Information Exploitation
Hd Information Superiority. ( ISTAR )
Directorate Capability
Military Capability ( Plans )
Hd Military Integration & Portfolio
Hd Capabilty Combat
Hd Capability Combat Support
Hd Medical Capability
Hd of Training
Hd Capability Combat Service Support
Commander Field Army
Deputy Commander Field Army
Chief of Staff Field Army
Headquarters Land Operations Command
Assistant Chief of Staff Training
Assistant Chief of Staff Land Forces
Assistant Chief of Staff Warfare
Headquarters Joint Aviation Command
Directorate Operations JAC
Directorate Capability JAC
Brigadier Equipment Strategy ( Army )
Army Inspectorate
Directorate Personnel Services( A )
HQ Provost Marshal. ( Army )
Directorate of Army Legal Services
Legal Advisory.
Headquarters 1 Military Police Group
Directorate Command Battle Space Management J6
Command Control Development Centre
Headquarters 3rd ( UK ) Division
Headquarters 12 Armoured Brigade
Headquarters 20 Armoured Brigade
Headquarters 8 Engineer Brigade
Headquarters 4th Infantry Brigade
HQ – School of Infantry
Infantry Training Centre
HQ – Royal School of Military Engineering
Headquarters 16th Air Assault Brigade
Headquarters 7 Light Mechanized Brigade
Headquarters – 77 Brigade
HEADQUARTERS Allied Rapid Reaction Corps
Chief of Staff ARRC
Deputy Chief of Staff CSS ARRC
Chief G2 ARRC
Chief Engineer ARRC
Chief Joint Fires ARRC
Chief G7 & Training Development ARRC
Headquarters 1st ( UK ) Signals Brigade
HQ – London District
Deputy Commander London District
HQ – Director Army Aviation ( Might now be reduced to Colonel?)
Headquarters 1st Aviation Brigade
Initial Training Group
HQ RPOC North West
Royal Military Academy
Deputy Commandant, RMA
Army Medical Directorate
Director Medical Capability ( Army ).-
Director Army Primary Healthcare Service
Headquarters – 104 Theatre Sustainment Brigade
Headquarters 3 Deep Recce Strike Brigade
HQ – Army Recruiting & Initial Training Command
Director Recruit Training. ( Operations )
HQ – Army Adventurous Training Group
Director Personnel
Directorate of Manning
Directorate Personnel Capability
Head Individual Development
Directorate Children & Young People
Directorate Warfare
Directorate Training
D Land Warfare
Collective Training Group
Combat Manoeuvre Centre
Operational Law Branch
AG C – Training Group
Defence College of Support
Headquarters 1st ( UK ) Division
Military Secretary and GOC Scotland.
Deputy MS
Deputy Commander Cadets.
Head of Future Force Development.
Senior Health Advisor.
Head of International Comms and Engagement.
Director Cyber Intelligence & Information Integration
Head of Information Exploitation.
Deputy CoS HQ Field Army, and Master General of Logistics.
Head of Armed Forces Renumeration.
ACOS Equipment.
Director Programmes
Deputy Military Secretary
Deputy Military Secretary ( Reserves )
Head of Personnel ( Reserves )
Assistant Head of Strategy.
Head of Logistics
Head of Training Capability.
Head of Military Capability Delivery.
Deputy Commander ( Reserves ) 1 UK Div
Deputy Commander ( Reserves ) 3 UK Div
Deputy Commander ( Reserves ) 6 UK Div
Deputy Director Land Warfare.
Head of Individual Development.
Directorate Information Exploitation.
Director Force Development.
Director Recruit Training ( Operations ) DRT ( Ops )
Headquarters – 38th ( Irish ) Brigade & RPOC NI.
Deputy Commander BFC
HQ – British Forces South Atlantic Islands
HQ Directorate Intelligence Corps
HQ – Army Personnel Centre ( Mil Sec )
Chief of Staff
Directorate of Manning & Career Management
Service Prosecuting Authority
Standing Joint Force Headquarters
Joint Force Headquarters
Joint Force Headquarters CoS
HQ Joint Force Logistic Component
Army Officer Selection Board
I contend that, for most of this list certainly, and debatably for others, a lowly Civil Servant or a WO does not have the authority or gravitas to fight their corner or their budget when you have responsibility for hundreds and a budget running into the many millions.
Thus 1 * Brigadier for most and upwards to the ** Major Generals. Real Generals, are totally absent, as they are elsewhere, and even *** Lt Gen are only a couple here from memory.
Nah you apparently only need a single 1* to command the deployed Brigade and a 2** as CGS *rolls eyes*
Well done. At last you are getting the hang of it. All those jobs above, given the diminutive size of our armed forces, be performed by Lt Col. level. Youngsters get a great deal more responsibility than that at just such an age within the private sector but only within the armed forces once they are at war. That is why ‘peacetime’ armies generally perform badly when things kick off.
Lt Colonel level for all those posts……riiiight.
Wasn’t talking to you was I? But again reading comprehension not the best.
Lieutenant Colonels are generally in their mid thirties, about the age that Marlborough and Wellington were winning their first battles.
This list simply illustrates the problem, not the solution. It is a legacy organisation that no longer reflects the reality of today’s armed forces.
Salami slicing reform we know does not work. That is how we ended up where we are. Top down IT projects (DIPS) are always a disaster…watch this space….
Everyone, in particular every taxpayer, has had enough of this nonsense.
Systemic reform is required
More Generals than tanks
More Admirals than ships
More Air Officers than combat aircraft.
Total joke.
You know the USN also has more admirals than ships, right? This isn’t an abnormal proportion.
You know the USN actually has a Navy?
No, you’re incorrect.
The USN doesn’t have a navy, it is a navy. Those are two different things. Duh.
Stupid comments get stupid replies, now bore off, troll.
The USN as 216 flag officers and 400 ships.
I apologise, I made a mistake in what I was trying to convey.
The USN does indeed have about 200 admirals of various types. It operates about 400 ships.
The RN has about 35 actual admirals to its 65 ships.
My intention was to state that the ratios between the two were not dissimilar when considering actual admirals.
Unfortunately, my wording was incorrect and changed the meaning of the comment entirely.
Tbf, in the British Army OF-6 isn’t a General either, so the comment you where replying too is inane anyway.
65 ‘ships’ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, I chuckled at that too. If only…
The point is that, wven if the front end of the RN was back to over 100 ships, that back end officer number would barely change.
A military still needs the same supporting parts no matter how many front line items of equipment it possesses.
Example, Director Capability, a Rear Admiral I recall, in charge of said Directorate at Leech Bldg, will still be needed if the RN has 14 Escorts or 44.
It’s totally illogical otherwise.
Ships are massive and cost billions, having more admirals than ships is fine.
Having more generals than tanks is a seriously different level.
But the equipment that’s operated isn’t relevant, Jim.
Every service will have staff roles, training roles, logistics roles, liaising roles, regardless.
Our 3 services are no different, and the 1 * and above have been culled repeatedly since Front Line First in 95.
Additional to this, much is now tri service to reduce duplication, and in effect, numerous 1 star posts.
DCLPA at Worthy Down, or whatever it’s been rebranded this week as the names change, has a Commandant, I forget without looking if it’s a 1 * post or lower, but the post rotates through the services. At one time, each service had such an organisation.
Same for Cosford, same for Sultan, same for Southwick, all tri which has reduced staff rear end roles.
Jim, in civvy street it is the same. Don’t suppose that in the Tesco organisation that there is just one senior manager per store and none on the corporate side.
quite agree with you, they need culling.
And what replaces them if we did?
Armchair Generals ! 😁😁😁
Culling of senior officer posts has been ongoing for years. REME used to have a Major General as its DG – its been reduced to a Brigadier for the last 30 years. Senior officer in the Falklands went down a rank similarly. Many posts have been reduced in rank or made tri-service, thus the three former service staff colleges has been just one joint one for many decades so many senior offcers posts were cut.
The services are very good at cutting senior officers posts – the Civil Service and the Government are less so.
We’ve had more commanders than ships and more admirals than senior commands requiring them, since at least the 18th century. It is in the nature of the enterprise.
No. The MoD, and the 3 services are vast organisations with hundreds upon hundreds of directorate,with multi million or more budgets, and hundreds of staff. A civil servant or officer of OF6 so Brigadeer and above is typical.
But should the MoD be such a vast organisation? The rest of Whitehall is no better, over 500,000 civil servants now doing the jobs of the 360,000 headcount in 2019.
Well what parts of the MoD would you remove?
I would set up a brand new Ministry of National Security with an entirely new staff and allow today’s MoD to wither on the vine. That is the only way to get rid of the corrosive, poisoned and politicised culture. The place is a snake pit.
But the MoD includes current ongoing national defence capabilities!!
An entirely new staff? How many years would it take to vet them?
And what of the ongoing, long term subject matter experience and defence knowledge of staff?
I’ll ask again, as what you’re suggesting I do not believe is possible. What parts would you remove, and what would you retain, if anything, or nothing, by your last post?
I’ll make it easier, I’ll lay out some parts of MoD and you can say yay or nay.
Ministers of State.
PUS and 2 PUS.
MSHQ elements, such as –
CDS, VCDS, and varied ACGS,ACCS,ACNS.
Brigadier General Staff, Air Staff, Naval Staff.
DCDS MS & Ops.
ACDS Mil Strategy.
DG Sec POl, includes things such as DCMO and DCMC, ACDS Ops and C, ACDS Mil Strategic GE,
& other Policy Directorates.
DCDS Mil Capability.
DNO.
NAD Group, so the wider DES, DIO, DD, DSTL.
HO&CS, so –
DG Finance
DCDS, CD People.
ACDS (PC) and DS Secretary.
ACDS RF&C.
DG Delivery and Strategy.
People, HR Dept.
MoD CSA.
DG Strategy and International.
COO Chief Operating Officer.
Defence Diplomacy Staff
Cyber and Specialist Operations Command, includes DI, DSF, JFIG, JSSO, DHO, JCG, NCF, and others.
UKHO.
DM.
It really isn’t that complicated. A new Ministry simply takes on various roles and responsibilities incrementally; a slow build as the other Ministry withers. The new Ministry maximises latest generation single core software system interoperable future proofed IT with easy to vet youngsters capable of making the most of it.
Ok. This is clearly no longer a serious conversation with that response! 😄
Not wasting my time further.
Thanks for the chat though.
What do you think DIPS is trying to do (badly)?
“As any fule kno’, digitisation, at scale, in order to work, has to be built from the ground upwards. All other methods have already, certainly in this country, been tested to destruction.
Monro never has serious conversations. But I think he just has a critical thinking deficit of epic proportions.
Move CDS and staff into the new Ministry. CDS, in concert with the new Permanent Secretary, decide the priorities for an incremental ground up C2 digitisation around a single core software system.
‘Research suggests that approximately 93% of organizational change initiatives fail to achieve their intended outcomes. This paper investigates the role of leadership in facilitating successful organizational change, with a specific focus on the integration of technological advancements to enhance interactions between employees and management through process automation…The results highlight that technological advancements can streamline communication and decision-making processes, ultimately improving organizational outcomes. The research emphasizes that effective leadership is essential for navigating the complexities of organizational change.’
‘Organisational Change in the Digital Era’ Science Direct Feb 2025
I think this article needs a little context. We need to understand more about the roles of these people as clearly there are positions which need to be filled by a senior officer as junior officers would simply get pushed around and the whole purpose of the role would be undermined.
You mean jobs for the chaps 🤔
Not really. Let’s look at a really old role which was command of the Staff Collage, Camberley before it evolved into something else.
My understanding is that it was commanded by a General. Not surprising really as those that studied there were future generals not only of the UK but also they taught high ranking foreign students and indeed probably had foreign high ranking guest tutors. Are you seriously going to put maybe a Major in charge.
We also should probably consider that I’m sure that the staff collage was profit making.
So profit for the military to be used elsewhere.
Same goes for procurement, HR, Payroll, etc. etc.
A good example.
Ironically, to cut senior posts as so many here want, the 3 single service examples were merged into the JSCSC at the DA at Shrivenham.
And you’re right, there will be either a MG, RA, or AVM in charge. There has to be!!! Posters clearly just don’t get the reasons why, and don’t understand Defence either.
It wasn’t done in order to cut senior posts, it was done to avoid the embarrassment of academic staff outnumbering students. JSCSC is a bit like a motorway service station.
As in….people come and go?
‘…any journey that is set to last at least two hours has to involve a stop in a motorway service station”, He speaks animatedly about his fondness for Cobham: “It’s light and airy, it feels exciting – you get a rush of blood when you walk in and see the vast array of options. Plus, the outside area is impressive, with its own water feature!” he exclaims. “There is always a big sense of mystery too – you never really know where you are in the country.” (Mattie, 38, self-proclaimed motorway services superfan). The ordinariness of Britain’s services are jokily referenced in popular culture….’
Helen Salter Oct 2024
Also the wages would be good for perspective
OF-6 in the Army (Brigadier) is about 130-140,000 per year.
I made a list a month or so ago concerning JUST the Army, never mind RN, RAF, MoD, and wider NATO posts.
Most I here i will say with confidence will never have heard of most of my list. A military is a lot more than just ships planes and Tanks.
Senior officer positions have been culled on several occasions.
I missed that. But yeah, people think that the only job for a 1* is commanding a brigade and that’s insane.
But also I don’t quite get the outrage of providing a career path for officers. Do we want talented people signing on to the armed forces? Because getting stuck in a dead end job because there are only 6 1* pids is certainly not going to enable that.
Agreed. Yeah, as someone who’s orbat and actual hands on knowledge obviously far exceeds mine, I was hoping you’d see it and comment on it.
It was extensive. Posters don’t seem to realise the extent of the support bit behind the deployable Brigades.
Just blaming “too much braid” isn’t correct.
The criticism is, for all of Whitehall, that organisational structures more resemble pillars than pyramids.
For the armed forces, if they can’t fight, then they shouldn’t be in uniform.
Right. Well I disagree, but I can at least see where you’re coming from there with your belief.
There are plenty of uniformed areas of defence which are not directly “at the coal face” as it were, of facing and killing an enemy on a battlefield, but are still necessary for Defence and still hurt an enemy.
But they may all be at threat from the enemy and, if in uniform, must be able to fight.
As I mention elsewhere, lowering the uniformed retirement age frees up experienced retired Officers, NCOs many of whom now go overseas to find work, some to China.
More VSO’s than ships , tanks or planes
Despite the context setting or explanation in the article, it seems some still think that there is only a need for senior officers in command slots. In the army to take an example, we have about the right number of senior officers in command posts and in staff roles in the Field Army, in DE&S and Arms directorates and in ‘defence diplomacy posts’. Arguably there might be a few too many in the ‘MoD Head Office’. I doubt you could shave more than 5% at most.
There are a lot of rainbow posts across the serviced and that nonsense needs culling OR we create another admin branch with more colours for heterosexual members; we don’t have the money for this pride claptrap.
Whether there are too many in the directorates depends on whether you judge serving officers to be the most suitable people for the roles in question.
But then it’s just splitting hairs. If a jobs not being done by a senior officer then it’ll be done by a civilian with a similar pay.
True. Also don’t think there are any OF-6’s or above whose only job is “pride claptrap” (Must be nice to be so privileged as to not have to worry about needing someone to protect you). IIRC the highest appointment in that field is an OF-5.
Maybe I should dig out my list i made the other month, Graham.
It’ll never stop these uninformed posts but might make a few raise their eyebrows.
A ground up reorganisation of the C2 of all three services and logistics support, procurement staffing etc. is required based on digitisation around one single core software system.
That process will immediately highlight a great many areas appropriate for significant streamlining. The present organisation is a legacy structure that no longer reflects the drastically reduced size of Britain’s Armed Forces.
Everyone in uniform should be doing, at least once annually, a battle fitness test.
Furthermore, given that no government of the last thirty five years has addressed our conventional deterrent with anything approaching reality, thought should be given to releasing this country from its obligations as a permanent member of the U.N. security council. The idea that Britain could any longer perform such a role as originally envisaged is not to be taken seriously.
I would say we seem to have a lot more Admirals, Generals and Air Chief Marshalls on here than all of NATO combined.
(look, It’s not my fault, you lot started it)
Yeah, fair point.
A lot of bitterness and resentment if you ask me. One can see that many of the CDS end up as political yes men, but I aim my primary dislike at HMG, not officers.
I think its wonderful to have so many Ruperts at that level. They all bring lots to the table, needing stewards and lackies to keep them accustomed to their expensive existences. And look at what they earn, not a lot in this day and age compared to NHS diversity officers. Yup, an example of the stupid class system we carry on reflecting empire. Bloody stupid. Bin 75% of them and you might be walking the walk.
Spoken like a true narrow-minded working class snob.
Quick to judge without knowledge of background/experience? Fine, bite away.
I’m ex RN popeye. (1999 – 2013)
All three services are sized now at operational two star command level.
All else should flow from that: CGS two star, CDS three star.
If CDS took a stand and reorganised around that command structure as he is perfectly entitled so to do, that would properly put the cat amongst the pigeons.
Monro, you can’t have a CGS as the same rank as a divisional commander.
Yes you most certainly can. In reality, today’s entire British Army is divisional sized, capable of deploying only one Brigade on extended operations. CGS is, effectively, a two star divisional commander. CDS should make that clear to parliament and the country by reforming the rank structure accordingly. Britain, still a permanent member of the U.N. security council, would then be represented on all the senior NATO ‘knitting groups’ by youngsters at Lieutenant Colonel level. Let us not forget that the most effective Brigade Commanders in both World Wars were aged 25-35, most of them already highly decorated, some of them with the Victoria Cross.
The retirement age should be capped at 45, with resources given to retraining for a return to civilian life where, at that age, typically, retired service personnel have an enormous amount to contribute to both the private and public sector.
‘On 8 November, just three days before the end of the war, Carton de Wiart (37) was given command of a brigade with the rank of temporary brigadier general. A.S. Bullock gives a vivid first-hand description of his arrival: ‘Cold shivers went down the back of everyone in the brigade, for he had an unsurpassed record as a fire eater, missing no chance of throwing the men under his command into whatever fighting happened to be going.’ Bullock recalls how the battalion looked ‘very much the worse for wear’ when they paraded for the brigadier general’s inspection. He arrived ‘on a lively cob with his cap tilted at a rakish angle, and a shade over the place where one of his eyes had been’. He was also missing two limbs and had eleven wound stripes. Bullock, the first man in line for the inspection, notes that Carton de Wiart, despite having only one eye, ordered him to get his bootlace changed.’
*Sigh*
The British army is not “in reality” Divisional sized. The British Army retains 3, arguably 4, Division sized formations (1, 3, FAT and ARRC). You’ve got some sort of weird hang up about how many Brigades could persistantly be deployed. Irrelevant.
1) How many Brigades you can get out the door is fundamentally a product of generation cycles and the long term health of the force. It does not represent what the Army could, if necessary, get out the door for a full scale dust up.
2) Even if we could only deploy 1 conventional combat brigade, CGS isn’t in charge of just the combat deployments but also the home force, so again: the idea that we could only have one Brigade on an Afghan style deployment at a time is irrelevant.
So no, CDS should not demote CGS to a two star rank. You seem to have practically zero grasp about how an army is actually structured.
Funny you should mention de Wiart, since you know, he retired a Lt General (***) at the age of 67.
I get the impression all the experts on Officer Pids here don’t actually have much of a clue how the Army is structured. If they did, they’d know what FAT is without having to look it up….
Maybe I should start including a few more acronyms as we’re all experts all of a sudden.
The problem is people who’ve read just a tiny bit, made up it fit with their preconcieved notions, and then feed into those notions. Monro is a case in point, in this particular instance, having heard that the Army can only keep a Brigade on Enduring Ops, and thinks that’s the best effort maximum deployment the Army can manage.
The British Army can only fight as a Brigade on extended operations (war on Continental Europe).
That’s it. All the rest is hot air, atmospherics.
The splendid Carton De Wiart VC was extremely upset at being moved from his divisional command but he was.moved because he was considered to be too old.
The best operational one stars in both world wars were aged between 25 and 35.
Thanks for again demonstrating you don’t know what you’re talking about (but who is shocked at this point).
The army can provide a Brigade on ENDURING OPERATIONS. Ie something like Afghan where we are going to be in theatre for 20years and have to rotate troops through the deployment. For “War in Continental Europe” as you put it the Army can provide the best part of a Corps (which would total 14 Brigades btw). Because Harmony guidelines would go out the window in that case.
Oh and look suddenly the goalposts move. Yes, De Wiart was told he was too old to command a division, but he wasn’t too old to preform other duties that a 2* general can preform. You know, the kind of duties that you are winging about from the peak of mt Dunning Kruger.
As I say, hot air, atmospherics….
‘3 (UK) Division……(has) no infantry fighting vehicle, currently fields 14 artillery pieces, and lacks the spares to support its tank fleet. In theory the Division will eventually field two Regiments of Challenger 3 main battle tanks, but it does not have the logistics or engineering equipment to support them. It does have a large fleet of M270 Multiple Launch Rocket Systems, but Britain likely has fewer munitions for them (than required)……The very notion that the British division really has three brigade combat teams is hard to support: one of them is a “Deep Recce Strike” brigade without any main battle tanks or infantry.
The British Army’s hollowness goes much further, however. The battlefield in Ukraine has demonstrated that electronic warfare equipment is essential for all units, as is the ability to defeat drones. Units also need much more reconnaissance equipment, especially drones, to find and strike targets beyond line of sight. Air defence has also proven critical to protecting the force from glide bombs and ballistic missiles. 3 (UK) Division lacks any of this equipment at scale and has an insufficient number of personnel trained to operate it.
Britain has gifted a large proportion of 3 (UK) Division’s equipment to Ukraine and what is left is worn out, while the threat that the British Army is committed to deter is becoming manifest as Moscow grinds its way westwards.’
Dr Jack Watling, Senior Research Fellow, Land Warfare, Royal United Services Institute
A British Expeditionary Force deployed on extended armoured operations at war on Continental Europe is nothing like any campaign ever fought in Afghanistan. Britain struggled to produce an armoured division deployed on extended operations in 1990, managing two brigades only, at a time when the British Army had approximately 153,000 regular personnel and a further 73,000 personnel in the Territorial Army.
If Britain was called upon to deploy a fully formed armoured formation to Europe tomorrow, frankly an entire fully functioning brigade would be beyond it.
That is how things presently stand, no sign of any improvement on the horizon amidst war, once more, on Continental Europe.
And thanks for again proving Monro that you don’t have a scoobies about what you are talking about.
You are pivoting, once again, away from the subject because you know you don’t have a leg to stand on.
We where not discussing how well equipped the Army is. We where not discussing how well it would stand up to whatever it came up against.
We where discussing what it’s maximum deployment would be.
And that maximum deployment is a Corps.
You can tell you don’t know what you’re talking about because you are quoting stuff about the DSR not being a fully fledged maneuver brigade, which, like most of your frankly inane babbling, has nothing to do with anything, because things don’t have to be Maneuver Brigades to go out the door.
8 Engineer Brigade is not a manuever Brigade either, but if the ARRC was activated for a war in Europe it would deploy.
“A British Expeditionary Force deployed on extended armoured operations at war on Continental Europe is nothing like any campaign ever fought in Afghanistan.”
^evidence if any was needed that your reading comprehension is not the best. I suggest you actually try reading. You might learn something (unlikely with who I’m talking too).
I notice you ignore the fact that I raised in my initial point that CGS also commands non-deployed troops, and keep trying to run down less and less relevant rabbit holes trying to justify your position.
Your reading below:
‘The limitations of the British Army’s ability to field modernized armoured fighting forces in the 2020s have been laid bare in evidence submitted by the military to the parliamentary Defence Committee. The Army admitted that by 2025 it would only be able to field a combat division consisting of just a single manoeuvre brigade and an interim manoeuvre support brigade. A fully capable division including a new Strike brigade will not be available for fielding until the early 2030s — more than five years late, the Army said in written evidence published by the committee.
Integrated Operating Concept UK MoD Sept 2021
‘Despite the Secretary of State’s insistence that the UK Armed Forces still have sufficient capacity to deploy in response to world events, we remain to be convinced.’
‘I can absolutely assure the Committee that we can provide a trained divisional headquarters and certified and assured brigades—16 Brigade, 7th Light Mech Brigade Combat Team, and an armoured brigade—but there will be capability gaps in our ability to get there and our ability to sustain it for time.’
Gen. Sir Patrick Sanders H of C Defence Committee Oral evidence: Armed Forces Readiness,
7 November 2023
‘…the Committee is concerned that the British Army cannot, as currently constituted, make the expected troop contribution to NATO or sustain prolonged conflict.’
H of L International Relations and Defence Committee ‘Ukraine: a wake-up call’ Sept 2024
‘..when RUSI analysts last looked at the Army, and the combat division the UK claims to have, it measured the number of main battle tanks and self-propelled artillery in the UK’s inventory and found the numbers wanting when set against a ‘credible’ armoured division of anywhere from 170 to over 300 tanks and around 110 to 220 artillery pieces. The numbers have not improved in the subsequent four years: under the Challenger 3 programme the UK will have a total of 148 main battle tanks (in 2030). Meanwhile, the UK has essentially removed the AS90 artillery from service by donating 32 to Ukraine, replacing them with 14 Archer guns until such time as the ‘Mobile Fires Platform’ is procured (some time ‘this decade’).
A Hollow Force? Choices for the UK Armed Forces RUSI 08 July 2024
Come back when you know what you are talking about.
Again, Monro seems not to grasp the concept of a war of national survival in europe, and thinks that harmony guidelines would have a bearing on anything. Monro is stupid and can’t grasp that basic fact.
Nor can he grasp that even if ARRC doesn’t deploy (which he doesn’t know the structure off since he apparently only thinks armoured combat brigades need commanders), CGS has to command the units that stay at home as well.
Don’t be like Monro.
Actually use your brain.
OH and this is to you Monro:
Maybe consider that everyone who you are talking to on this thread is saying you don’t know what you’re talking about and is saying “done with talking to you.”
Get your head out of your pathetic arse.
Come back when you know what you are talking about.
The USMC is bigger in manpower than the entire British Armed Farces and has just 64 Officers OF-6 and above.
Good for them, but totally irrelevant given the thousands of orgs and Directorates that will be in the Pentagon that will either be headed by a uniform, or by a DoD employee of equivalent grade to the size of the org he or she heads, it’s staff total, and it’s budget.
Horsehoop – 95% of the OF-6 jobs in UK MOD could be done by a D grade CS or a WO/Lt.
It’s a huge job creation Ponzi scheme for Wuperts with no real job or purpose.
And, you’ve done those jobs yourself of course.
Ok.
Why are you saying “Uk MoD” by the way? Strange term.
Hi JustMe, As a Major in HQ QMG back in the day, I had a Grade D in my team. He was a dull plodder who only knew about a very narrow area of the business. I think he could not have done a Corporal’s job in the army, let alone a Brigadier’s.
It seems clear you don’t know anything about any officers’ jobs, let alone senior officers’ jobs. Did you serve as an embittered junior rank?
OF-3? So RN Lt Cdr equivalent – a middling nobody
That CS? Invariably demotivated by working for yet another dull arse polisher.
As my 3* used to say – need something done, give it to a civilian, need it sat on, give it to a uniform.
Too many box tickets and not enough actual leaders and military capable senior ranks. They all end up political yesterday men and fail their services terribly
We have had enough ranks to run the US army left alone the British one.
Last time I looked we had two battalions worth over the rank of major.
Thanks Daniele for your good factual input on this. Equating the number of general officers – those of 2-star and above – to the number of army brigades, air squadrons or ships is pretty meaningless. In the army, for instance, there are many other calls on senior officers. Most of the eleven corps, say RAC or Signals or Sappers, are commanded by a Major-General or, for smaller corps, by a one star. They are responsible for every aspect of the corps, including doctrine, trade training, tactics, equipment, promotion, equipment etc, etc. In the infantry, there are 4 administrative divisions, each playing a similar role. This is the essential bedrock upon which the British Army is based.
Other general officers head up the various departments of the army HQ staff, others head up various combat commands like Stratcom, ARRC, Special Forces, NATO HQ, etc, etc. And a lot are seconded to a plethora of MOD procurement, personnel and development teams in the MOD. The other two services work in exactly the same way.
You did a sterling piece of work previously publishing the detail of where all these senior officers were deployed
Problem is, most of the general public and even some on here haven’t a clue about what is involved in running the armed forces. It isn’t helped by ignorant journos at populist tabloids.bleating that we have more admirals than ships etc.
The comparison with the USA is not that relevant. Whether you have 10 armoured regts or 30, your armoured corps will likely be commanded by a 2-star, because you need that level of experience and seniority. And the number in staff, procurement and training posts won’t change much either, for the same reasons. We could expand the army by 50% but wouldn’t need anything like that increase in the number of general officers, due to economies of scale.
It is weary to keep going over this subject but needs must!
The list goes on and on..
Thanks for that, Cripes. Yes, many seemingly don’t know, but I detect an anti officer vibe as well.
The list you refer to, which took me flipping ages, ironically ONLY listed those 1 star and above in Army related posts.
I intend to do one on Army in tri service and other MoD posts for completeness, and then a RN and RAF centric one as well.
Then, when this old chestnut resurfaces, which it will, as so many love to moan about this, I will have it to hand to post so they can suggest ideas as to who does those jobs, and at what rank, and how that plays out in things like international relations with allies when using Private Pike won’t cut it when dealing with multi billion budgets and the high command of allies.
The simple point being made is that Whitehall, including the MoD, is overstaffed, over 500,000 civil servants now doing the jobs of 360,000 in 2019.
Young men are well capable of senior command. Marlborough won his first battle in his mid thirties as did Wellington. Britain’s youngest Brigadier in WW1 was in his mid twenties, youngest two star in WW2 mid thirties.
An Army of one deployable Brigade on extended operations obviously needs an admin tail but not one commanded by two and three stars. That is simply comedy gold, as Blackadder clearly demonstrated…..
But much of the military does not directly deploy, nor is meant to, such as training orgs, home defence formations, R&D, C3, Cyber, logistical, DI, and so on.
One cannot just civilianise the lot. If you do, the military is even more hamstrung.
CGS Commands all of Army Command, which includes more than just a deployable Brigade, when in fact there are several.
That is what retired Officers, NCOs are for. If the retirement age is a great deal younger, all that experience, much of which is currently being lost, can and should be put to good use. Quite a lot of it currently goes overseas, some of it to China.
A field army of one Brigade with a back office staff of two, three and four stars is absurd, a sitting duck for satire; a P.R. disaster. The same goes for all three services.
Retired British Officers are working overseas in command appointments in the Middle East and elsewhere.
‘The Ministry of Defence issued a security alert last year, revealing that a number of former Royal Air Force, Royal Navy and Army pilots had been……contracted through a private South African company and attracted by high salaries.’
Lol if someone is retired they, by definition, are not commanding anything.
Also field army is not 1 Brigade.
It’s about 14.
It is 14….I think….no, 15?
12,20,4,7,3,16,ASOB,11,77,1,8,101,102,104,1AVn.
Some are pretty small for a Brigade but the point still stands.
Then add FAT on top with various Groups. 7 Gp might expand to a Bde I understand.
‘I’m just going to have to sit this one out on the touchline with the halftime oranges and the fat, wheezy boys with a note from matron, while you young-bloods link arms and go together for the glorious final scrumdown.’
‘If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through’
General Melchett