James Heappey MP, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, recently toured HMS Glasgow on the Clyde.

In a series of tweets, Heappey expressed admiration for the ship’s state-of-the-art design and versatility.

“What a ship! My first look around #HMSGlasgow on the Clyde this morning. A huge ship that is designed like no other anti-submarine frigate but also incredibly versatile too. Can’t wait to see her in service with @RoyalNavy,” he noted.

Heappey then spotlighted the growth and development across the Forth Bridge at Rosyth. He shared, “Whilst the other side of the Forth Bridge at Rosyth, three Type 31 frigates – HMS Venturer, HMS Active and HMS Bulldog – are all also in build.”

Summing up the significance of these shipbuilding initiatives, Heappey emphasised, “£ Billions of investment, here in Scotland, building the backbone of the future @RoyalNavy 🇬🇧.”

In light of Heappey’s insights, here’s a comprehensive overview of what’s being built.

Ships Under Construction or Planned in Glasgow:

  • HMS Glasgow: Type 26 (Batch 1).
  • HMS Cardiff: Type 26 (Batch 1).
  • HMS Belfast: Type 26 (Batch 1).
  • HMS Birmingham: Type 26 (Batch 2).
  • HMS Sheffield: Type 26 (Batch 2).
  • HMS Newcastle: Type 26 (Batch 2).
  • HMS Edinburgh: Type 26 (Batch 2).
  • HMS London: Type 26 (Batch 2).

Ships Under Construction or Planned in Rosyth:

  • HMS Venturer: Type 31.
  • HMS Bulldog: Type 31.
  • HMS Campbeltown: Type 31.
  • HMS Formidable: Type 31.
  • HMS Active: Type 31.
George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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111 COMMENTS

  1. I doubt these numbers will be reduced at all, much less drastically. Contracts are signed, work is underway. The amount of money that could be saved is negligible.

      • So am I, I was born a bred in Galloway (Wigtownshire) but I don’t actually like Haggis, it just gives me rotten indigestion.

        For me you can’t beat Fried Clootie Dumpling, Black Pudding (not the nasty English stuff with lumps of fat in), White Pudding, Ayrshire Bacon, Link Sausages (or Square Sausage meat), Eggs and Fried Tatie Scones.
        Nector of the Gods and then week on the Spin bike 😉

        • So, I’m on a recce to Scotland and we stop off at a Petrol station to fill up the motor and the Captain I’m with (Scottish) asks If I have ever had Tablet. I replied “What?” So off he pops and comes back with these small packets of small slabs of confectionery wrapped in clear plastic and throws one at me. Talk about a sugar fix, first and last time I touched one of them. Couldn’t help but notice what a sweet tooth Scotland has.

          • Peter wrote:
             

            “”Psst, they don’t all eat Tablet all the time 🙄 Neither do they all eat Haggis, wear Kilts or play the Bagpipes.”

             
             
             
            I was lucky enough to share a camp with the KOSB which saw :
             
            1) My squadron (RE) been banned from the NAAFI after 7pm (we had our own squadron bar)
             
            2) Finding out that the coke machines in the Naafi only sold Iron Bru
             
            3) That Scottish stamps had a thistle on them (if you bought them in the Naafi shop)
             
            4) Me taking up reading the Sunday post resulting in asking for the Oor Wullie or The Broons annual at Christmas whereever i was in the world.

            And heres a few anecdotes from my time sharing a camp with them:

            On entering the cookhouse , and at the hot plate, I had my hand pulled by somebody at the otherside and somebody shouting wash your hands Oh how we all laughed
            Another time on entering the naafi at lunchtime, some twat shouted out “Paki” to much laughter I turned round and shouted back “Where?, lets all kill him?” You could have heard a pin drop as everyone’s train of thought proceeded to board at the station, as that was the last thing they were expecting. Funny enough nobody ever shouted that slur at me ever again.

            On a night out down town, I went for a slash, some of the KOSBs went up to my mates and informed them to tell that Paki to stop drinking our Beer. They replied back ,”Farouk doesn’t drink” (The boxing team had been banned from drinking” Their reply; “Tell him anyway. We left.

            I went out with the daughter of a Scottish MOD police inspector, twat hated me and even tried to run me over.

            My best friends at 4 of my postings have been Scottish (and I still keep in contact) Don’t get me wrong I really like the Scottish and Scotland. But as you can see, I am well versed in the ways of the Scottish
             
            P.S. As for Bagpipes, sharing a camp with the KOSB, resulted in been regaled to Bagpipes for reveille and for lights out.

        • You are so right about English black puddi ng horrible stuff but in my digestive system love chippy haggis supper, Scottish mushrooms I’m originally from Perth but now honory Yorkshireman (where I finished my time RSigs)

          • Andrew wrote:

            “”You are so right about English black puddi ng horrible stuff””

            Philistine. Cant beat a Black pudding sarnie with lashings of red sause. On that note, tha one thing I miss abart living int “Gods country” is the Yarkshar fish cake. (found primarily in the West riding) drahned in vinger

          • I like English Black Pudding with the fat bits, not that I have anything to compare it to but some of those food items above certainly sound interesting.

          • Twice a year I get the chance to eat it and it brings warm memories of my childhood. Mum, Granny and Aunties all baked Tatie Scones, Tatie Meal Scones, Soda Scones, Syrup Scones, Treacle Scones and Pancakes.
            Reminds me I do need to make some (they taught all the boys to bake, cook and Make n’ Mend).

        • White Pudding or as we call it down here…Hog’s Pudding. Fried with bacon and eggs. Aaaah🍽🙂. I think I feel the urge!

        • Can I recommend MacSween’s vegetarian version, ABCR? An interesting & tasty alternative, to my mind. Perhaps worth consideration 🤔?

        • In going to have to stop your right there, only some English black pudding has lumps of fat in it. Infact you are specifically referring to the Lancashire version of black pudding not English black pudding as Lancashire black pudding is the one with the fat lumps.

        • well you acting like a little girl, and fishing for attention. and yes if you are Jamaican beige using the N-Word is acceptable, just not if a red haired bearded haggis uses it..

    • Jim wrote:
      “”Haggis Munching, is the some kind of racial slur?””

      Put me down as a racist then, as I ordered a load of Scotch Pies and Steak & Gravy Pies from Campbells arriving on Friday, so we’ll be munching away quite happily for the next few weeks 

      • I have to say I grew up amongst most then available food and drink, thinking all sorts of items were as good as unpalatable, Ice cream to beer and among them Scotch eggs, vile things or so I thought, then had a fresh chef made one in, of all places in Burnham on Crouch in a pub restaurant there, it was divine. So like proper pasties and pork pies, Bakewell puddings, Eccles cakes, cheese and sausages etc, etc as the standard has improved immeasurably my appetite can’t get enough, to the great distress of my waistline.

        • I may be a Scot by birth and heritage but was raised in Derbyshire, so I have an unusual perspective on food, Bakewell pudding is gorgeous and I defy anyone to find Bakewell Tart in a Bakers shop in Bakewell.

  3. It’s really vital we get the Type 32 order to keep Babcock and Rosyth going. It’s amazing that anyone can produce a 6,000 tonne frigate in the UK for £250 million.

    It’s also astounding that the cost for batch 2 type 26 dropped from around £1.3 billion to £750 million per ship once BAE ceased to be the sole supplier.

    Unfortunately at T32 is unfounded and labour seems to be focused on the Army I can see T32 disappearing next year and Rosyth closing to warship builds.

    • I think labour will keep the focus on shipbuilding in Scotland: they need to gain seats from the SNP to get an overall majority in Westminster.
      There’s a lot happening…or not happening…but a picture is emerging: I think T32 will happen. Echo and Enterprise have been laid up. The batch 1 Rivers could be sold as soon as T31 enters service with their RN fisheries role dropped – one or more River 2’s could return to home waters – maybe do fleet ready escort? The LPDs are seemingly being ‘wound down’. We are engaging in talks with the Netherlands about a future amphibious ship. Argus, the LPDs and the Bays = 6 hulls. Echo, Enterprise plus 2/3 of Severn, Tyne and Mersey equates to say, 10 ish hulls. 5 T32s and 5 amphibious assault / support ships?

      • Labours will focus on UK waters we won’t need T32, we don’t need carriers to swan around the NA or NS so there’s your assault ships. Although with defence of Europe being the priority, why assault ships will be needed for so carrier future is questionable. Labour can easily swamp the yards with green offshore work, 28b per year post 2025 this big money on green energy dwarfing the defence spend. The only thing Labour has to do is keep the unions happy = work of any type. Forget anything going on today, new government new strategy. And of course any cuts Labour will do what the Tories have done, blame you’re predecessor, that script is already written.

        • It could go down as you say but I don’t think it will. I believe there is an understanding with the US that QE / PoW and CDG deployments will support US diplomatic efforts. Blinken is bringing India into the western ‘fold’ more effectively than we can – our imperial relations limits the real influence we have over India. I believe the US is helping India set up a manufacturing plant for F404 engines.
          https://editorials.voa.gov/a/blinken-in-india/5997687.html
          That said I agree that labour will try to shift our economic, diplomatic and defence focus back to Europe and NATO? I don’t think this means the RN becomes a green water UK waters navy, but it does mean that we will be expected to be a lead player in Atlantic ASW – so they will commit to however this task is done. And they support the army and RAF in the context of NATO commitments. How that plays out on the European continent and in Africa its hard to say until the conflict is resolved. Interesting news on Prigozhin in the last 24hrs.
          Oh, and yes, they will blame their predecessors 🙂

    • A couple of inaccuracies here that are worth bearing in mind.

      T31 isn’t £250m a ship. The GFE not included in the original £1.25b contract amounts to about £18m a ship, and cost overruns are going to drive the ship price higher. It’s still a fantastic success of a programme: even £400m a ship would still be a great change to the status quo.

      BAE ceasing to be the sole supplier has remarkably little to do with the cheaper B2s. The first batch of a class is always more expensive, because it includes a lot of firsts and extras (the B1 gun contract also included the training rig, for instance), things that the B2 builds then benefit from.

      • With the uplift in capability I wonder how much the GFE has gone up by ? Last I heard 3 MK41 VLS is about £16 million per ship.

        • One Mk 41 is around 16mil from the manufacturer before you put anything in it or connect it into anything onboard. So add in ships cabling, pipework, steel work etc on top of that.

      • The cheaper batch 2 T-26 might also be down to radar, tails and sonar coming across from the T-23s. Batch 1 had to have extra sets ordered.

    • Agree the RN needs to see movement and commitment on the type 32 programme otherwise at best frigate and destroyer numbers will remain inadequate to perform current required peacetime deployments and commitments. For clarity the defence select committee has consistently received advice by the RN itself, stating the RN needs 26 escort class warships now to just perform the current deployments. So add some contingency reserve, fluctuations in availability, refit, training etc and that number realistically is actually somewhere around 30 destroyers/ frigates and we currently have 17- so only 56% what we need.
      The fact remains that the type 32 programme would be well advised to just follow up the type 31s design with another batch optimised for littoral warfare- so medium gun for NGS, standoff missiles via mk41 vls and ability to deploy drones with a large multi mission bay.
      The whole of the purpose of the much lauded national ship building programme was to continuously commit to rolling serial production of warships with the type 26 and type 31 being followed sequentially by type 83 and type 32, 33, 34, 35 respectively.
      The problem is we are now run by a technocrat Tory party of money men whose only interest is their own financial wealth, the wealth of Tory party grandees and their family’s financial wealth and investments being secure. I’d love to see the heads of all 3 services write an open letter to the PM and Chancellor and to speak in one clear voice stating precisely what they need to meet the current and predicted threats based armed forces structure. I know I am deluded to think politically appointed senior brass will ever do the right thing and speak out openly and honestly against their political masters but you can live in hope that one day it might actually happen. This is a key point threats based military force rather than capabilities based.
      The threats we face are:
      Submarine warfare vs Russia/ China in the North Atlantic and Arctic regions
      Protection against BMD and cruise missile strikes against the UK homeland in any conflict aimed at incapacitating our military/ industrial base.
      Defence of overseas territories and commitments to our allies (Australia, Japan, USA, New Zealand) especially of concern with growing Chinese assertiveness and aggression.- QE carrier battle groups and astute class submarines vital in this respect as are the ability to deploy a rapid reaction force and sustain it via 5th airborne brigade, the Gurkha brigade and the Royal Marines
      Commitment to support NATO operations at land, sea and air and our allies in NATO from Mad Vlad and his cronies in Wagner.- adequate numbers of destroyers, frigates, SSNs, typhoon, Poseidon, Wedgetail, f35Bs and the ability to deploy effective armoured groups up to divisional strength.

      • Its certainly tempting to build on the T31. And we are doing this by adding Mk41 VLS, which opens up a lot of options, not least the possibility of filling them with Aster missiles controlled from a T45.
        For me though, there is a question as to whether T31 (T32?) with rafted machinery etc is the best solution to provide more ASW capability.

        • Best solution for ASW is more submarines. Ideally another batch of type 26 would be best. By the time a redesign of type 31 costs are factored in I doubt there will a huge difference in cost but there will be a huge difference in capability.
          Money will be the deciding factor. Also running costs would need to be known.

          • Astutes 4-7 look like about £1 billion each. T26 looks to be about half of that. How much cheaper could you make T26? Could T32 be a T26 lite for example? Does it really need the Mk45 gun and the Mk41 vls, cheaper radar perhaps?

          • Babcock are already working on the design for the ASW Type 31 in the hope of overseas sales. So maybe it would be cheap enough for a RN order.

          • Surely the T-31 has some anti submarine origins in its linage so should be adaptable to that role. Comparable to T-26 I’m sure not but if the wish to invest in it (the big question) no second rather either I suspect.

          • Happy to defer to the experts but I think the notion of building an ‘affordable’, rafted machinery Arrowhead T32 as a class of effective ASW ships puts us in silk purse sows ear territory. As a rule you get what you pay for and with subs getting more difficult to detect I think we need T26 level capability. So we either build more T26 or we build more SSNs or we design a new ‘affordable’ ASW frigate class. I would be interested to know how good at ASW the losing T31 BAe Leander design would be, and what it would cost to build if you configured it as a dedicated ASW frigate. I think it was based on the Khareef which had a quiet slow speed electric propulsion capability.

          • The base design for the T-31 included engineering clearance for adding rafting and other ASW features. It also currently meets NATO ASW standards

        • Active ASW with a Bow Dome and a good set like 2150 doesn’t need rafted machinery. Yes it would help in avoiding counter detection but the computing power and algorithms it uses help enormously in the really long open ocean detection ranges.

          Passive/LF Active ASW with a tail can be done on a non-rafted ship. The radiated noise is an issue compared to a rafted ship but you can manage it. You tow an array at a couple of knots, so main machinery is going to be one propulsion engine running with the rest on standby. The engines, pumps, DG Sets are on vibration shock mounts anyway and engines and DG sets will be enclosed. The ship will have HVME fitted to monitor radiated noise.
          The array is made up with vibration isolation units in it anyway which also help. Depending on Stay length the receiving array could be well over 2 Km astern of you. The big yellow active transducer array may well eb below the thermocline in a sound channel which again helps

          You could go old school and fit Agouti air and Praire-Masker. That worked on the old classes of FF/DD we used. The USN still use it on ABs and they are still building them.

      • Have you read the oppositions proposal for defence? Why do we need carrier and huge number of escorts for the NS and NA? How do any of these or new vessel acquisitions pass the ‘NATO’ test?

        We need to get used to the idea that we will become a regional force focused on Europe from next year.

        • Is the Royal Navy more than a wannabe world force anyway? While it can deploy world wide it’s numbers are low for that role.
          The Atlantic is still a huge ocean and requires more ships to even have good presence there. Add in the U.K. oversea territories it has to provide security to and that’s a lot of ships needed.
          The U.K. was one of the few nations in nato to actually shrink its defence spending this year. Perun did a good video on nato spending.

    • I don’t think that the T32 has ever existed, it was a slip of the tongue by Boris which was grabbed hold off by the RN and Boris never corrected himself.

      That is my theory anyway.

      • I think more like it came up in his head as sounding like something a particular audience wanted to hear so said it without any real understanding or interest in its role of viability but expecting others to thus feel obliged to then make something of his words and build out a paper proposal conveniently so well down the pipe line it never really needed any substance for him to find and he could blame others if nothing came of it far lzter.

  6. Looking at the names of the Type 26s, I would have liked to see Wales and NI receive another naming. St Davids for Wales and Newcastle or Bangor for NI

    • All you need is someone to order a couple of more T26’s which is what I would like to see ?
      As for the 2 names if you consider the populations of the 4 nations then IMHO it would be better to name 1 after either, York, Exeter, Manchester, Liverpool or Leeds
      And for Wales / Ireland I love the idea of naming one as HMS Bangor and just twin it with both Cities with that name. It would make a really interesting little cruise Bangor to Bangor.

      • ABC wrote:
        “”And for Wales / Ireland I love the idea of naming one as HMS Bangor and just twin it with both Cities with that name. It would make a really interesting little cruise Bangor to Bangor.””

        Could even have a wee flidders dram at the end

      • Leeds and Bradford never had their fair share of ships named after them. As for HMS Bangor, I don’t think they’ve decommissioned the current one yet. Probably still in the Gulf. Nothing to stop that cruise when it gets back.

    • Probably HMS Caernarfon for Wales as it is historically important. Cardiff has only officially been the Welsh capital since 1955

    • Peter wrote:
      ““Newcastle or Bangor for NI” ? I’m at a loss as to why you would like to see both these names personally,””

      Because there is a Newcastle in NI and 2 in the UK”*Granted one is called Newcastle-under-Lyme”

      As for Bangor, 1 in Wales and the other is NI 

      I also like Quality street

  7. Honestly I don’t think we will see the T32 or if we do it may just be a batch 2 T31 but optimised for ASW with the necessary Rafting, acoustic enclosures, sensors and weapons fit etc.
    I can’t see us buying more T26’s and if we accept that Russia is our main possible threat then ASW is what we need, more ASW Frigates.

    In addition I never saw the sense in tying up a Frigate doing Mothership work, it is just a complete waste of a ship and crew.
    If the RFA Proteus and Stirling Castle can do their tasks then just buy more of them with lower costs, flexibility and lean manning.
    We need every Frigate doing what they are designed for.

    If any of you want to have a head scratching moment just look at what Poland wants to do with their T31 derivatives. It’s rather bizarre as they seem to want to invent their own acronym. FFAWBEFitted For And With Bloody Everything).

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/07/new-details-on-polands-miecznik-class-frigates/

    If that works then it just shows what a great hull the Danes designed.

    But I suspect that as we head towards 2030 the RN will want more SSN(R) than just 7 Astutes and that may come at the cost of an enlarged surface escort fleet.

    • I agree but the RN already has aspirations for a fleet of up to 15 SSN(R) as part of AUKUS but we won’t see an increase in SSN numbers before late 2030’s but we could see an increase in surface combatants by early 2030’s if we build type 32.

      China launch a SAR Radar satellite into Geo stationary orbit last week. This is why Australia wants SSN’s and why the RN will focus more on SSN and less on surface ships.

      With permanent radar coverage if the sea from Geo stationary orbit no surface vessel or even snorkeling submarine will last long in a shooting war.

      • What kind of resolution do we think a SAR can manage for constant surveillance from 22,000 miles with only a satellite’s power source? Could it even tell an aircraft carrier from an oil tanker?

        As for a snorkel, I doubt it in my lifetime.

        • It’s reporting a 50 meter resolution which is big enough to track a surface warship.

          For sure a snorkel is out of its resolution for the moment however it does not necessarily need to resolve an image to notice it and it’s wake may give of a signature. however they are also working on low earth orbit SAR and LIDAR satellites that will pick up a snorkeling submarine. This was stated as the key reason Australian ditched its SSK’s.

          • 22,000 miles is the height of geostationary satellites, which is what Jim is talking about. Spy satellites are typically LEO, which don’t give continuous surveillance of any particular point alone.

            SAR geostationary won’t be exactly stationary, as SAR requires relative movement to work. They’d move relative to Earth around a stationary point at the same orbital height, possibly like an old geostationary satellite that has drifted off station.

  8. I don’t think I would highlight the numbers of frigates as it is such a pitifully small number and not nearly enough for the royal navy’s needs

  9. That didn’t take long if correct! 👍

    “Ten people have died after a private jet crashed north of Moscow, Russia’s state-owned Tass news agency has been reporting.

    Wagner mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin was listed as a passenger but we cannot yet confirm at the moment if he was on board the plane.

    Earlier, a Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported that the jet was shot down by air defences in Tver region, north of Moscow.

    In June Prigozhin led a short-lived mutiny against Russia’s President Vladimir Putin, which lasted only 24 hours.”

    LINK

    • I had been wondering which window he would fall out from, and on what floor. I hadn’t realised he would come down from such a height. Having said that, there is as yet no firm confirmation he actually got on the plane, time 2140. It’s interesting that they can shoot down a civilian aircraft but are still having difficulty with drones.

      • It appears from the video Farouk supplied it took a while for the plane to come down giving him time to know his fate.

        Much deserved.

      • It wasn’t shot down. The wings are seen being looked over by a bunch of Russian teenagers in fields far apart from the crash site. Both wings were severed from the aircraft midflight. No sign of the engines. Both must have been blown apart midflight leading to severed wings.

        • Whichever!, it is a very effective way of lancing that particular boil, from Putin’s point of view. May you live in interesting times, we certainly are.

        • Just looked at this evenings news and it appears that the Pentagon agrees with you! No evidence of a surface to air missile. However your mind is open as to the cause, he’s still dead.

    • They’ve bumped him off at the same time as the BRIC conference. Hide his assassination in amongst BRIC conference news.
      No didn’t take long for the Wagner boss to be killed off.
      Still that’s one less Russian psychopath for NATO and the rest of the world to have to deal with.

      • BBC is reporting witnesses heard 2 loud bangs in the air immediately before the crash. So my theory stands. Both engines and wings blown up mid flight by a timed explosive device

          • There is even a couple of pictures on the BBC of some Russian children looking at the broken off wing sections that landed strangely separately and a considerable distance away to the main body of the aircraft. Chances of an embraer legacy aircraft simultaneously losing both it’s wings and engines at the same time mid flight….err that’ll be zero.

          • From Warzone site videos I see one wing was still intact and one video you can hear the engine(s).

            If the airframe is subject to enough stress due to irregular flight it would loose a wing after, what cause the irregular flight? an explosive device, SAM, A2A missile ? Who knows. There also another possibility, the group on board will have had weapons with them either in the cabin or in the hold or both, its not beyond possibility their own incompetence saw one of these go off.

  10. “A huge ship that is designed like no other anti-submarine frigate …”

    That’s true. It doesn’t have on board torpedos or (as yet) any other on board anti-sub weapon.

    • If it’s sub hunting, why would it try to engage a sub that has a maximum effective ranger of 50+km with a weapon that has a range of 10km?

      • If the helo is disabled or tasked elsewhere (or armed with a non anti-sub loadout) when the enemy sub is detected then having a weapon that can be fired at the press of a button is surely a necessity? Just because the sub has a maximum fire range of 50km that doesn’t mean either the sub or the type 26 would first detect each other at that range in a combat situation. Don’t get me wrong, I think the T26s are great ships and with the exception of onboard asuw they have an impressive loadout. But they are primarily anti sub vessels which currently lack an ability to sink a sub on their own. Hopefully the cargo container torpedo launchers posted above are fully implemented.

        • In order for the T26 to be able to use the “push button weapon” it needs to get into knife fighting range of the sub is the point.
          Also why would the helo on a sub hunting asset, whose primary weapon is the helo, not be loaded out to hunt subs or be tasked away. Because if that where the case probably the first knowledge the t26 would gave if the sub would be a HWT arriving.

          As for pods LWT dispensers I doubt it. Waste of money frankly. We’d be better buying ASROC analogues for T26.

          • “loaded out to hunt subs or be tasked away”

            If it is being used to ferry supplies or personnel to another vessel, or there might be more than one sub in the area and it is off looking for the other one, or it has battle damage, or the weather is too bad to fly (hardly unlikely in the North Atlantic…)… One can easily think of many circumstances in a war situation where this could happen and so to have no backup plan at all seems very risky. I agree about ASROC; it would be preferable I think because of range and already compatible with the ships VLS.

            Considering both the sub and T26 are designed to be stealthy and given all the other variables which affect detection range at sea in a combat situation, it is quite possible the ship and sub don’t detect each other until they are well within engagement range.

          • “The weather is too bad to fly.”
            No, sorry, I think you need to look at footage of Heli ops in the North Atlantic and talk to people who conduct them. Same goes for “if subs are on opposite sides.” Because Helicopters move a lot faster than subs and actually have patterns that mitigate this. But again this all misses the point that no sub will close to 6k before engaging a Frigate.

            It’s not a back up plan. It’s a waste of internal space. (And no, they’re not likely to close to within knife fighting range before detecting each other either).

          • I think that is a blaze’ attitude to the realities of war and you are trying to talk them away with unwarranted optimism. I have seen the footage you speak of and that doesn’t mean that airframes don’t have operational limits, which a competent enemy would try to take advantage of. Consider the following scenario. The helo has just fired its torpedos at an enemy sub and is on its way back to the frigate to refuel and rearm, when a second sub is detected. How are you supposed to engage the new threat? If ASROC then that is what I partially am arguing for anyway. You also didn’t explain what you would do if your helo was damaged or undergoing repairs when the threat emerges. You can pretend such things are impossible if you are feeling optimistic enough I suppose.

          • Sorry you feel that way but you’re wrong. So given you don’t know the how high the operational limits of RN rotary assets are, you also don’t understand how hard it is to try and take advantage.

            Luckily a T26 can carry two helicopters in that (extremely niche) scenario where the helicopter isn’t available for a few minutes. But hey in your scenario the torpedoes won’t do any good either because, and this is the point you are ignoring: their *range isn’t long enough.*

            You’ve concocted a scenario now where a frigate is now going to have to dodge HWT torpedoes for 40km before engaging, rather than quickly launching helicopter #2, or remaring the other one. Its a non starter.

            Oh and notice how I managed all that without resorting to ad hominem.

          • I notice also that the latest European FREMM frigates, the newest Arleigh-Burke American destroyers and even the Australian version of the T26 have on board ASW torps. Clearly they all think its still worth it.

          • This is the first, and only good point you’ve had so far (At least superficially), but there is nuance. The MU90 torpedoes that FREMM and the Hunters use has a maximum effective range of 25km, that’s over 2x the range of the Stingray’s that the T-23’s (and if they’d be equipped with them, City class) use, more comparable to ASROC than to Stingray in fact, so the use case for them is not nearly as niche.

            AB’s are an old design, yes even the newest ones, and design inertia can be a thing, the space is already there in the design after all. More tellingly the newest design the US Navy is introducing, the Constellation Class Frigates, do not carry on board lightweight torpedoes. So clearly the US Navy does not think it’s still worth it by that logic, doesn’t it?

  12. HMS Glasgow had cables severed by saboteurs. Culprits: contractors, Russians, UK Union detractors? As an island we need security and solidarity but also respect for our diversity in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and England.

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