A flying demonstrator aircraft will be unveiled within the next five years as part of the UK’s major next-generation fighter aircraft programme, the ‘Future Combat Air System’ (FCAS).

According to the Ministry of Defence, this comes as the future combat air programme launches a new recruitment and skills initiative known as Generation Tempest, set to create thousands of new job opportunities across the United Kingdom.

“The demonstrator aircraft is already in development between the Government and Team Tempest industry partners and the UK is actively progressing collaboration opportunities on the project with Italian industry partners. The flying demonstrator will be a piloted supersonic aircraft testing a range of new technologies including integration of stealth compatible features. This is the first time the UK will have developed a new fast aircraft using 21st century technology.

Work is rapidly gathering pace on this important part of the FCAS programme, with development of the demonstrator underway at BAE Systems’ facility near Preston in the north of England. This is being supported by hundreds of companies and thousands of engineers across the UK. The demonstrator is vital for ensuring our technology, skills and industrial capability are ready for the future. Designing and building the flying demonstrator will prove integration and test skills. It will also provide invaluable data and lessons to UK industry to support the introduction of a new FCAS aircraft from 2035.”

Team Tempest partners, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo UK and MBDA UK, also aim to hire an additional 1,300 early careers starters by the end of 2023.

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:

“I am delighted that the UK, alongside Italy, Japan and Sweden are working on the same combat air journey together. Our work with Japan and Italy on cutting-edge technologies like this, shows the benefit of our alliances across the world. The design and development of the demonstrator aircraft represents an important milestone, showcasing the success and talent of our engineers,  programmers and software developers. This programme will go on to attract opportunities for many more great minds and talent from across the UK.”

The Ministry of Defence has also listed some of the efforts of ‘Team Tempest’ so far.

  • Rolls-Royce Defence has delivered a new gas turbine demonstrator engine, known as Orpheus, designed, built and tested in under two years to prove innovative technology developments for FCAS. Working with international partners, Rolls Royce have also agreed the next stage of the full-scale engine demonstrator programme.
  • BAE Systems has used digital transformation to design and build a representative military fast jet fuselage, demonstrating how innovative technologies can transform the design and manufacturing capability for Tempest. Commercial robots were adapted and utilised, and 65% of the parts were guided into location using automation.
  • Leonardo UK and Japan’s Mitsubishi Electric have agreed the concept for a radar technology demonstrator called JAGUAR, first unveiled in February, following the completion of joint concept work and feasibility studies earlier this year.
  • Leonardo has also revealed ongoing bilateral work to support the future electronics on-board the FCAS programme. Leonardo in the UK and in Italy are working together on a number of projects with Elettronica in Italy including joint assessment of potential architecture of a common Integrated Sensing and Non-Kinetic Effects (ISANKE) and Integrated Communications System. The work is complementary to ongoing collaboration with Japan on 6th generation sensor capabilities, an area in which Italy will soon be involved.
  • MBDA unveiled its concept for a weapon effects management system, to aid the coordination of all available weapons in the battle space using Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning enhanced software.

 

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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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John Williams
John Williams (@guest_659327)
1 year ago

New British fighter jet ‘Tempest’ to fly within five years
5 years is too long a wait, given the Russia-Ukraine War

Martin
Martin (@guest_659354)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

If you think about typhoon timeline the tech demonstrator flew in 1986 with prototype in 1994 and and IOC in 2003. If tempest does not fly prototype by 2027 then it won’t fly before 2050.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659472)
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin

Sorry things have changed extraordinarily since then in both technology and the partnership parameters. While nothing can be guaranteed with the latter I doubt that even if we were dealing with the Germans, present realisations and realities are unlikely to remotely delay the project the way they did with Typhoon. Most if not all partners are going to be far more engaged now that we aren’t operating in the post Soviet arena of Glasnost, the peace dividend and defence cut backs. But even more importantly, technology is just so much more advanced, geez when the Typhoon demonstrator was developed computers… Read more »

johan
johan (@guest_659499)
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Agree if you keep France and Germany out of the program, will run a lot smoother. those 2 never agree on anything

Martin
Martin (@guest_659540)
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

They said the same about F35. Computer aided design and manufacture speeds things up but it’s the vast amount of code that will take years to develop.

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_659848)
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

If you have been following, BAE are already working on advanced manufacturing, the finished product will be with us within 10 years. The past is the past.

geoff
geoff (@guest_659603)
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin

By which time I will be 101!😁

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_659359)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

Umm really, the development of a fifth generation fight takes a very long time indeed. Look at the F35: started life as a number of programmes in the 1980s…merged into the joint advanced strike tec programme in 1993..from this they ordered two demonstrators in 1996 that flew 2000-2001, this when onto development of a pre production F35 in 2006 and first deployment in 2015…the F22 had around the. Same sort of development timelines ( demonstrators ordered in 86 flew in 90, first f22 pre production flight 1997, operational 2005)…..your really taking a couple of decades to design and deploy of… Read more »

TypewriterMonkey
TypewriterMonkey (@guest_659368)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

Five years seems hugely impressive to me. Can’t wait to see its first flight! Wouldn’t a great demo be landing the aircraft and then revealing that it doesn’t have a pilot inside? I know they wouldn’t do that, but it would be very cool nonetheless.

Jack
Jack (@guest_659476)
1 year ago

I suspect it will be a supersonic business jet testing/demonstrating tech rather than an actual Tempest fighter.

ATH
ATH (@guest_659642)
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack

There is no such thing as a supersonic business jet!!!

Andy P
Andy P (@guest_659412)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

Can’t say I follow your logic mate, its not like we’re in shock and awe at the might of the Russian armed forces in their Lightning War in Ukraine. If anything its Russia that will be in a mad rush to upgrade their gear after seeing how its performed.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659479)
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy P

Judging by previous performance thats highly unlikely, especially as previous attempts were in a pretty supportive environment as opposed to the hostile environment post war when costs spiral replacing basic material the priority and obtaining the technology will be so much more difficult to obtain. Geez they have barely produced a new frigate a decade, their new tank languishes in developmental problems they struggle to resolve and that along with their ‘new’ 5th Gen fighters are rarer than unicorns despite the long drawn out development. Even t90s are barely being used in Ukraine they are so scared to lose them… Read more »

Ken
Ken (@guest_659587)
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy P

Hmmm Russian problems go beyond technology. When they get their act together watch out. The Mig 15 and the A bomb were unwelcome surprises with a little help from simple friends.

DaveyB
DaveyB (@guest_659823)
1 year ago
Reply to  Ken

Like the then Labour Government giving Russia jet engines for their Mig 15s.

Tommo
Tommo (@guest_660161)
1 year ago
Reply to  Ken

Good old Clement Attlee Gifted a RR jet engine in 1946 to the Soviets where as the A bomb was achieved through Russian Sympathisers Spy’s working for either the Manhattan project or our own Nuclear project

Richard Cooper
Richard Cooper (@guest_659455)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

The object is to keep the design teams together and employed for as long as possible so we don’t have to start from scratch next time.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659461)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

Don’t know but for the life of me I can’t understand why Tempest flying sooner than that is going to have any effect on or the immediate aftermath of that war. Present aircraft are well beyond what’s required till the thirties, even if numbers are in question. We can all start whinging come 2030 plus.

Last edited 1 year ago by Spyinthesky
johan
johan (@guest_659498)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

takes around the same to build a Typhoon.

Phil Chadwick
Phil Chadwick (@guest_659641)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

It’s a technology demonstrator, not a production airframe. If people can cast their minds back to the 80’s, we had a technology demonstrator call EAP, which eventually became the Typhoon. Tempest is years away from entering squadron service, but this is an important stepping stone in that journey.

James
James (@guest_660728)
1 year ago
Reply to  John Williams

What exactly does Russia have aircraft wise that the Typhoon or F35 are unable to deal with?

Barry Larking
Barry Larking (@guest_659330)
1 year ago

This is beginning to sound like progress. The delivery of the engine in particular is most encouraging.

Peregrine16
Peregrine16 (@guest_659438)
1 year ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

Agreed, that is impressive by RR!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659481)
1 year ago
Reply to  Peregrine16

Yes was reading about it this morning guessing it might be related to Tempest sounds vet impressive indeed, cooperation with others and potentially more is clearly helping confidence to invest there.

Last edited 1 year ago by Spyinthesky
Terence Patrick Hewett
Terence Patrick Hewett (@guest_659332)
1 year ago

This is good news: together with a rumoured Japanese partnership, it will build up a hopefully unstoppable momentum, insulated from political cancellation.

Mark Franks
Mark Franks (@guest_659333)
1 year ago

Full scale or rc model? If true I would be amazed.

Coll
Coll (@guest_659338)
1 year ago

Read an article that Tempest and the Japanese F-X program could be merged. I wonder if there would be an official announcement at Farnborough

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_659350)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

Reporting by Reuters so likely pretty accurate

Sean
Sean (@guest_659367)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

Would be interesting to see how workshare etc is handled. While the air-forces are of a comparable size Japan has double the GDP of the U.K.

WatcherZero
WatcherZero (@guest_659379)
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

The report is the assembly would be local and they would have geographic ‘franchises’ for exports, i.e. Japan would have exclusive rights in Asia. Similar to Eurofighter assembly.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659523)
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

True but we have a considerable amount more military expertise they need, after all they were only were allowed to produce anything deemed as offensive weaponry the past 20 years or so and indeed only now trying to change the Constitution to allow any long range weaponry to be employed let alone produced. Doesn’t matter how smart you are that’s a lot of catching up to do even for a former military heavyweight like Mitsubishi who are responsible for their fighter project. They have had to be very careful which is why they have become so reliant on the US… Read more »

Sonik
Sonik (@guest_659619)
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

Mitsubishi has strong ties with RR in the civil engine sector, maybe there is a potential opportunity there.

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_659850)
1 year ago
Reply to  Sean

But not double the technology, which is more relevant! Japan have no tier 1 military contractors the UK have at least 4. There is no question who will take the leadership role. Japanese only Trump card is a guaranteed purchase order of 100+

Nick C
Nick C (@guest_659449)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

The official announcement was today, it’s on the FT website.

Coll
Coll (@guest_659459)
1 year ago
Reply to  Nick C

Nice. Cheers for the heads up.

Nick C
Nick C (@guest_659528)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

I’ve just read the FT piece again, and the announcement today is about collaborating on the Tempest programme, for instance we already know that Rolls Royce are working on engine development with Japan. The actual merger of the FX programme is not scheduled to be signed until the end of this year, so plenty of time for some dirty tricks! It’s all about technology transfer, and the Americans are not happy with it. Shades of what is going on with the Franco/German work.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63 (@guest_659589)
1 year ago
Reply to  Nick C

Well maybe the US needs to learn to share its technology transfers a bit more readily and stop being so darn controlling. It’s all friendly competition and other countries deserve their successes too.
Heck, all we need now is a VSTOL Tempest…anyone?

Nick C
Nick C (@guest_659617)
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

That’s a really neat idea, put a nozzle on the front fan of the engine so the efflux can go downwards, same on the tail like the F35b and bobs your uncle. You heard it here first…. Oh, didn’t Hawkers do something similar in the 1960’s, damn, sometimes my good ideas are well behind the curve!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659484)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

Can’t announce until it’s a proper agreement and from what insiders have said not likely much before year end. Be embarrassing to announce an intention and then agreement doesn’t materialise even if that’s unlikely. So fingers crossed but already they are involved in engine, engine related aircraft aerodynamic design and parts, weapons and sensor developement so looks pretty big overlaps already.

DanielMorgan
DanielMorgan (@guest_659340)
1 year ago

Interesting interview with the US Secretary of the Air Force this weekend as to the status of the NGAD and the confirmation that it will be accompanied by drones. Not a traditional development approach.
Air Force’s sixth-gen fighter downselect ‘not all that far away,’ says Kendall – Breaking Defense

WatcherZero
WatcherZero (@guest_659385)
1 year ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

They have this week cancelled the B-21 loyal wingman drone. Arguing whats the point of building a drone that costs almost as much as the piloted version of a heavy bomber and while for a fighter you get the pilots weight saving on a bomber that saving is negligible.

DanielMorgan
DanielMorgan (@guest_659427)
1 year ago
Reply to  WatcherZero

apples and oranges.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659583)
1 year ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

That sounded as complex an update as trying to tie various Countries to a development programme, esp if two of them are France and Germany. I suspect the US is going to struggle to keep everyone happy here and as for the demonstrator it’s difficult to discern exactly what form this has taken so far as it’s not clear as to whether the airframe itself is actually unique or whether it’s actually the technology in those three areas mentioned that are the unique aspects. If they are ready to go on to the develop and production phase but are yet… Read more »

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach (@guest_659342)
1 year ago

A real step forward and if Japan’s FX and Tempest do become part of the same programme a truly global aircraft for the future.

Coll
Coll (@guest_659351)
1 year ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

I did read an article that the programs could be merged. Well, at least a higher level of cooperation. I’m not sure who would have the lead in the project.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659361)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

Reuters broke that story and it appears to be true based on the reaction of trade press and military analysts. The suggestions appears to be a mutual lead on the project, but with Japan distributing aircraft to customers in Asia and Oceania, and us to customers in Europe and the Middle East

Coll
Coll (@guest_659376)
1 year ago

Thanks.

farouk
farouk (@guest_659343)
1 year ago

Whats the Bobby on the French/German project?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659353)
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

Farouk – it’s juicy. The CEO on Dassault said on the 7th of June this year that the Franco-German FCAS is undeliverable before 2050. It appears to be firmly on the rocks due to industrial disputes

Source: Jane’s, FlightGlobal

Last edited 1 year ago by Levi Goldsteinberg
ChariotRider
ChariotRider (@guest_659358)
1 year ago

You beat me to it mate 🙂

Cheers CR

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659360)
1 year ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

We were both racing to it!

ChariotRider
ChariotRider (@guest_659371)
1 year ago

One day might learn to type quicker 😀

This is exciting news mind. BAE Systems did pretty well getting the Eurofighter demonstrator flying in the late 1980’s so have some track record – assuming not everyone has retired! Although they have also flown the Taranis drone which was a pretty complex beast from what little was available online… So hopefully 5 years is doable.

Cheers CR

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659530)
1 year ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Plus they have just launched two strike/loyal wingman drone designs with mock ups at Riat and no doubt at Farnborough too. One looks almost identical to its American equivalent ‘coincidentally’. Bae did wonders with the Eurofighter demonstrator back in the day even utilising a Tornado tail rather than the original German twin design was held up after their first hesitation on the project. First of many sadly that plagued the project.

Last edited 1 year ago by Spyinthesky
Nick C
Nick C (@guest_659433)
1 year ago

It couldn’t happen to nicer people!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659526)
1 year ago

Geez Dassault and Airbus can’t even agree on a mutual statement let alone an actual project.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider (@guest_659357)
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

Stalled. Levi Goldstienberg quoted the CEO of Dassault suggesting that their program would not deliver until 2050. Me and Levi chatted about this on the Typhoon radar article from the other day. There are a number of articles online stating that there is a bun fight over the flight control software between Dassault, who own the software, and Airbus who want access… They have been arguing since September and things have got so bad Dassault have reasigned their team onto other projects. Oddly, everthing appears to be going swimmingly with the loyal wingman part of the program, raising the interesting… Read more »

WatcherZero
WatcherZero (@guest_659386)
1 year ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Yes last I heard was going well at the governmental level with financial participation ratios agreed but the industrial consortium couldnt agree the work-share divvying at the company level. This is partly as its Airbus Spain and Airbus Germany as national leads meaning French Dassault are feeling ganged up on.

johan
johan (@guest_659502)
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

why wants it in grey and the other Blue, so they have downed pencils untill a mediation process can be completed and see if they are both happy with green,

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659345)
1 year ago

This is very exciting, particularly so if it is true that Japan is now onboard as an equal development partner. Quite aside from the obvious economic, geopolitical and military benefits of a successful export aircraft, I think it will do wonders for our collective country’s self-confidence, in the same way Harrier did.

Also – I take a lot of schadenfreude from the Franco-German FCAS being on the verge of collapse. The CEO of Dassault has said they cannot deliver before 2050. I take some smug, unearned pride from that

Martin
Martin (@guest_659356)
1 year ago

I feel really sorry for the French and Dassault 😀

Just kidding 😂

ChariotRider
ChariotRider (@guest_659362)
1 year ago

Hi Levi,

I don’t think Japan is on board officially with the fully program as yet as a recent article suggested that discussions were on-going. The situation is confused as initially they decided to go it alone, but collaborate would on sub-systems. So I am guessing that Japan’s participation will be on the basis of the existing agreements with the possiblity of them getting more involved if the current discussions about them joining the full Tempest program are successful.

Entirely my own thoughts…

Cheers CR

WatcherZero
WatcherZero (@guest_659392)
1 year ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

The suggestion is Japan wants to be a Tier 1 partner on the same level as the UK and have local assembly and export rights, much higher than Swedish/Italian participation level which would likely just be local assembly rights and workshare on components generally.

However the whole project is geared around modularity and the British and Japanese aircraft despite using mostly the same parts wouldn’t be identical, like F-35 variants.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659541)
1 year ago
Reply to  WatcherZero

Interesting you can see where the complexities come in of any collaboration not to mention the Japanese won’t want to completely shun the US certainly not by some massive announcement anyway. I think they will just gradually merge however considering the overlap already. The difference on the cooperation is that should this happen Japan and UK would be officially combining national project whereas as yet neither the Swedes or the Italians have officially committed to participate and thus this would certainly need to be sorted if they feel threatened by Anglo Japanese combining. If they want equal or even part… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_660469)
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Italians committed 6B$
Sweden are still in observation status.

The difference on the cooperation is that should this happen Japan and UK would be officially combining national project whereas as yet neither the Swedes or the Italians have officially committed to participate and thus this would certainly need to be sorted if they feel threatened by Anglo Japanese combining.

Britain has committed to invest £2 billion ($2.4 billion) in Tempest through 2025 with additional funding to come. The Italian parliament in December approved a €6 billion ($6 billion) investment over the next 10 years.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_659364)
1 year ago

This is really good news, especially getting the multi national partnership, U.K., Sweden, Italy and Japan are all serious players and can actually equal the mass of skills of the other likely players. This is a great opportunity for the British aviation industry as we will have links into most of the future options for western nations and allies, buying typhoon we win, buying f35 we win…and then we will have a whole new 6th generation offer.

jason
jason (@guest_659366)
1 year ago

So 15 years at the earliest then?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659369)
1 year ago
Reply to  jason

Give it a rest

Rfn_Weston
Rfn_Weston (@guest_659373)
1 year ago
Reply to  jason

Would that be an issue? It is to replace Typhoon, no?

Coll
Coll (@guest_659382)
1 year ago

How is the Franco-German FCAS doing? The last time I heard, they got over the issue with Airbus, or was it Dassault ?.

Last edited 1 year ago by Coll
Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659387)
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

Replies detail this further up in the comment section. Suffice to say its not good news for France and Germany

Coll
Coll (@guest_659391)
1 year ago

Cheers.

Masterblaster
Masterblaster (@guest_659395)
1 year ago

They can’t afford it.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659402)
1 year ago
Reply to  Masterblaster

They? Who is they? The fifth largest economy in the world? And if rumours are to be believed, partnered with the third largest economy in the world in Japan?

If not us then who mate

WatcherZero
WatcherZero (@guest_659408)
1 year ago

Other announcement was Rolls Royce, Reaction Engines and RAF were co-operating on the design of a hypersonic aircraft with several paper studies on conceptual aircraft and one of them known as Concept V shown.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/~/media/Images/R/Rolls-Royce/content-images/country-site/delivering-the-future-of-uk-hypersonic-capabilities.jpg?h=300&iar=0&w=480

Last edited 1 year ago by WatcherZero
Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659578)
1 year ago
Reply to  WatcherZero

Yes got that bookmarked to read it was a blank link earlier today obviously had an embargo. It ties in somewhat with the announcement last week that Reaction engines are starting true flight envelope simulated testing of their pre cooler technology at their upgraded facilities in the US. 3 times the input speed of their previous successful tests representing 4000 mph plus in the atmosphere. Assuming the testing is successful it will enable this technology to be applied to existing and future jet engines to give them the capability to produce far more power in a range of vehicles in… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB (@guest_659874)
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

The technology of the pre-cooler was proven using if I remember correctly a RR Avon or Spey about 10 years ago. As it was using cryogenic refrigeration, this allowed it to cool inlet temperatures well below -100C. It proved that a turbojet could produce substantially more thrust. However, the concept is not new, as domestic power stations that use jet engines have used pre-coolers and recuperators for years to increase their efficiency. The main break through Reaction Engines had, was that they came up with a method that prevented ice being formed in the pre-cooler. Which allowed the cooler to… Read more »

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659409)
1 year ago

The US already tried to undermine Tempest by threatening Japan not to be a partner. You can see that it was ineffective, but still makes for interesting reading

DanielMorgan
DanielMorgan (@guest_659431)
1 year ago

When precisely did the US threaten Japan over joining Tempest? Some facts please.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659436)
1 year ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

You have google just as well as me. Fact is I can’t find any reference to it now; google is polluted with news stories about Britain and Japan’s defence collaboration from more recent years. What I’m referring to happened two/two and a half years ago. But it was reasonably widely reported – including on UKDJ if I remember correctly – that the US strongly implied (wink wink nudge nudge) that they would have to review Japan’s access to US technology and intelligence if they sided with the British project. It was coercion rather than a threat, and as you can… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Levi Goldsteinberg
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_659470)
1 year ago

They also threatened that over Ultra electronics.

A bluff, they would be hit as hard as the UK and Japan as they rely on overseas bases and 5 Eyes in hand in glove.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659548)
1 year ago

I agree I read it all too, some of it was reported on here indeed. Also well known that the US then offered an F22 airframe but total control over its maintenance and upgrades. They clearly thought they had Japan over a barrel but fact is with the rise and threat of China the US needs Japan as much as vice versa and like Australia needing nuclear submarines in this scenario Japan knows it needs a high level of independence in its defence decision making and technology and needs it quick especially witnessing the potential internal breakdown of the US… Read more »

WatcherZero
WatcherZero (@guest_659446)
1 year ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

2019, threatened to reduce defence co-operation if Japan didnt select a US company as prime Integration contractor, then Trump threatened to close US bases in Japan if Japan didnt pay the US more and directly linking it to the F-X project (US expects base host countries to pay the difference in operating costs between domestic and foreign barracks or provide services in kind).

https://www.ft.com/content/a024eeec-1b08-11ea-97df-cc63de1d73f4

Last edited 1 year ago by WatcherZero
Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659577)
1 year ago
Reply to  WatcherZero

Yes even then the US didn’t understand how world political events were undermining their ability to play the big brother card to the same degree it previously had felt entitled to. Japan now understands that game is substantially a weakening hand for the US for their own security and equally there are two sides to it with a US potentially wracked by internal insecurity in the coming years relying on it as they have for their ultimate defence is increasingly dangerous game for them. They need the nuclear shield true but as has been discussed in Europe since the war… Read more »

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659575)
1 year ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

This take has absolutely no handle on reality. Again what possible reason would Israel buying American have on Japans decision, do you have any historical evidence. On the contrary the evidence suggests as does logic that Japan is no longer willing to commit its security totally to the US, it wants its own ability to produce its own weaponry as much as possible, has spent 20 years in nudging it’s people and it’s constitution to achieve that and to that end Britain is willing, if you listen to them it has already agreed to a lesser degree with Turkey to… Read more »

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_659859)
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Well said.

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_659857)
1 year ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

You do realise that without US aide Isreal couldn’t afford to even buy F35s

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_660470)
1 year ago
Reply to  OkamsRazor

Probably they could but will have to cut in other places.
UK would also not have ICBM’s without US aide.

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_660706)
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

What are you smoking? The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world, bigger than France who have no input from the US for their ICBMs. Not sure what sort of education you have but Google UK and the Manhattan project.

Marked
Marked (@guest_659415)
1 year ago

More chance of spotting an airborne pig!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_659424)
1 year ago
Reply to  Marked

That would be the F117.

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_659559)
1 year ago

excellent! 😝 Bolton Paul Defiant and Fairey Battle also spring to mind

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_659655)
1 year ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Didn’t know that about them mate, apart from they got shot down pretty quickly.

Alabama Boy
Alabama Boy (@guest_659418)
1 year ago

At last some sort of programme has been sketched out for Tempest. No doubt it has to fit in the MOD funding cycle for major programmes after Trident replacement and possibly a Carrier mid life which must be in work up now. Its only a TDP example within 5 years and it will be many years before a first operational jet is available which depends on the outcome of the TDP so 2035 looks tight but possible at this stage. Given the history of Defence funding of major programmes, its very rare for a programme of this type to proceed… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_659425)
1 year ago

Another necessary step along the way. Excellent news. Where are you Japan, come on!

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_659426)
1 year ago

Let’s hope new PM backs it 🙏

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_659450)
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

I’m not sure even they would, they’re pretty keen to get across a new patriotic verve in their PR

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon (@guest_659531)
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

By and large both parties support UK defence. After all, it’s supposed to be the first priority – protect the people. Have to say the carriers were Labour initially (whatever input Brown is supposed to have had, which is as likely more hyperbole than hard fact), and I don’t forget so was the nuclear deterrent.
As I’ve stated before; don’t worry, the Russians and Chinese will adequately contribute to future UK spending decisions regardless.

PaulW
PaulW (@guest_659437)
1 year ago

Please buy some new Typhoons to keep us going in the mean time.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_659445)
1 year ago
Reply to  PaulW

That would be nice 😊but can’t see it.

John Clark
John Clark (@guest_659497)
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew D

It’s excellent news for UK plc and it looks like France is way out in the cold! Staying clear of European squabbles keeps the Tempest show on the road. A prospective full link up with Japan promises a truly capable, F22 sized and world beating machine. France has proven an unreliable UK defence engineering partner and Germany will likely fully embrace an advanced F35 variant with local assembly. A resurgent and aggressive Russia will mean Germany wanting to be covered by Uncle Sam’s nuclear umbrella, so a shift back to US products is inevitable in my opinion. It will be… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by John Clark
johan
johan (@guest_659505)
1 year ago
Reply to  PaulW

No Need and timescale is against it BAEs are full on delivering the Typhoon for Qatar, for the next 3 years. 5 years to deliver aircraft might only be in service 10 years.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_659483)
1 year ago

Prediction: The Tempest consortium will produce a technologically stunning demonstrator, nominally w/in the proposed timeframe. An incredibly successful test program will follow. Unfortunately, the good news for the stakeholders ends there. Why? Simples! Uncle Sugar’s minions, acting in a hybrid manner between the Godfather and members of the Borg Collective, will arrive to “negotiate a merger” between NGAD and Tempest programs. At that point, advise hiding the women and children, and making haste for the nearest mountains. Mark this fearless prediction for future reference

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_660726)
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Not 100% unlikely! However, my offbeat prediction is that NGAD will “absorb” the European effort, not Tempest. What many people fail to factor into the equation is Japan’s determination to get on the top table and this is their only avenue. If they partner with the US they will always be a junior partner, but with the UK they can be equal partners by virtue of their financial clout. However, the euro FCAS is doomed to failure as Dessault will never relinquish leadership to Airbus and the Germans are fed up of being the bigger economy but junior partners. The… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_663713)
1 year ago
Reply to  OkamsRazor

The Borg (from Star Trek Next Generation)…”resistance is futile, you will be assimilated”… 🤣😂😁🤔😳🙄

Jon
Jon (@guest_659514)
1 year ago

All this, Dragonfire and now they’ve announced the Hypersonic Air Vehicle Experimental (HVX) Programme. Rolls Royce, Reaction Engines, DSTL and the RAF Rapid Capabilities Office.

They’re not just talking about the engines either, there’s vehicle design in the mix, Concept V.

Lots of good development news today.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon (@guest_659525)
1 year ago

Starting to sound like a plan(e). Wonder if it’ll stay with the more vertical tail, since other 6th gen designs are looking to reduce or eliminate same.

David Flandry
David Flandry (@guest_659536)
1 year ago

We have been hearing about Tempest for years, so I hope it  :wpds_idea:  flies. A demonstrator, that is.
 :wpds_idea:

Not that
Not that (@guest_659537)
1 year ago

Will the Chinese steel the info and build it first… or the Americans. We tend to come third even with our own inventions

Tom Keane
Tom Keane (@guest_659542)
1 year ago

My real concern, it that this will prove to be horrifically expensive. Wasn’t that the main factor, in the USAF not getting the number of F-22’s they were originally promised?

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay. (@guest_659565)
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Yep. But some people believe that 6th gen fighters are somehow going to be by magic, cheap. These people are usually recaptured pretty quickly 😄

Watcherzero
Watcherzero (@guest_659597)
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

The actual production cost of the F-22 wasnt significantly higher than other fighters, around $125m without engine in a time most fighters were $80-100m. There were a few factors that made it unfavorable to produce more of even before the line was shutdown though. Most cutting edge radar and other equipment but the airframe was actually an early 80’s design, heavy, with limited performance growth possibility. Early stealth coating design that was less stable, it has to be reapplied every few missions and the aircraft stored in climate controlled hangers to protect it. Meaning huge infrastructure and ongoing maintenance costs.… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Watcherzero
David Flandry
David Flandry (@guest_659544)
1 year ago

Too long and too much money. Thats my helpful snarky comment.  :wpds_cool: 

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_659545)
1 year ago

No it won’t and what does Israel have to do with all this.

Ron
Ron (@guest_659610)
1 year ago

If the UK, Italy, Sweden and Japan all have potential orders for Tempest then it looks like we are back in the combat aircraft production game again. Good luck to the team and lets hope we see one flying in five years time.

Would I like to see France and Germany on board, not really sure on that one, my gut says no, not to be trusted my head says yes but only if we can trust them not to mess things up.

Christopher
Christopher (@guest_659640)
1 year ago

You watch. The friendly fire Septic Tanks will throw another tantrums, like they did with the BAC TSR2

Terry Seal
Terry Seal (@guest_659810)
1 year ago

The time that WW2 aircraft took from the drawing board to flight test was decades, given that we can use the science behind flight, the elements still will be the final test and we need to use a test vehicle for even more tests.

OkamsRazor
OkamsRazor (@guest_659854)
1 year ago

What are you smoking?!

Danny Powell
Danny Powell (@guest_659872)
1 year ago

Is tempest design change to more baes system replica style looking?

As big notice on change Intake and tail fin style?

Tommo
Tommo (@guest_660083)
1 year ago

Hope it doesn’t go the way of the TSR2 programme

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_660471)
1 year ago
Reply to  Tommo

It seems already too big to fail.

Tommo
Tommo (@guest_660773)
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

TSR2 was built and then scrapped by the Labour government in favour of the F4 phantom , it could have been a game changer for British aviation Alex

Scouse bigears
Scouse bigears (@guest_660086)
1 year ago

The tempest is an excellent 6th gen design, I gave my brother Noddy a design that would work, take a plane to a 7th gen, with the ability to be hypersonic, and gives it capabilities of the old tornado, with a wing than can change angle for speed, with an extra stealth ability included just in case the enemy can detect it. With a stealth design, and harrier jump jet abilities better than the harrier jump jet. So it could be used off an aircraft carrier, would be faster than an F-35 stealth fighter. And have all the added extras.… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_660532)
1 year ago

Love is in the air…

French defence minister praises UK

“I have a lot of faith in the United Kingdom. I think that the Brexit does not change our collective security agenda in Europe,” the minister said, before recalling the Franco-British closeness in military matters and evoking the “prospects of a new agenda to allow for a number of concrete actions, and not just industrial ones.

Last edited 1 year ago by AlexS
Richard Beedall
Richard Beedall (@guest_662095)
1 year ago

I was interested to read today that Italy has decided to massively increase its funding to the Tempest program – from €20 million a year to €220 million this year and €345 million next year! I wonder if this has anything to do with reports that Japan is likely to merge its F-X programme with Tempest, potentially relegating Italy to the status of a very junior partner unless it put a lot more money into the kitty.